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Jan. 23, 2021 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:07:38

BULLIED TO DEATH! Freedomain Call In

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	Good morning, everybody. It's, well, gosh, after so long together, do I need an introduction?
	I suspect not. It is the 21st of January 2021.
	It's a 10 a.m.
	on a Thursday call because I have been overrunning the show just a smidge, a smidge, and by smidge I mean an hour or two because we've had people booked who haven't been able to make it.
	Or I haven't been able to make it to them, and so we scheduled, or I scheduled, an extra show to get a little caught up.
	So thanks, everyone. I'm so sorry that we didn't get to you on the nights we were intended, but we are here now, and let's get started.
	Mr. James, please, with the intro.
	All right. Good morning, everybody.
	And I have the caller, and he writes, Dear Stefan, I'm a man in my mid-30s, married, and have three children.
	I have been a listener for about four years.
	Listening to your show has been a tremendous help in my life.
	Recently, I've been pondering over an issue in my life, which I was hoping could help me find some answers.
	I suffer from compulsive behavior.
	I wouldn't classify it as OCD per se, but I bite my nails, pick hairs off my beard, and do other similar things.
	I gauge in this behavior, especially when stressed.
	The roots are in my childhood because I cannot remember when was the last time I had normal length nails.
	Trying to just quit hasn't been successful as it happens without me being conscious of it.
	Although it hasn't had a significant impact on my life or my relationships, uncovering the origin may help me relieve my general anxiety.
	I come from a middle-class family, and though I never faced physical abuse, I did suffer from neglect, some verbal abuse, and most importantly, a non-existent relationship to my father.
	As long as I remember, I have had a difficult time sitting in.
	I have always been quite a creative person, but I have never been encouraged to pursue those aspects of my personality.
	Quite the opposite, in fact.
	My suspicion is that my compulsive behavior is somehow linked to my experiences of not fitting in and being punished for standing out.
	As you say, the tall poppy gets cut, and the protruding nail gets bitten.
	I would really appreciate it if you could help me explore this, and if you find some further clues.
	It's a great question. I was a bit nervous about that question, to be honest, because, well, I'm a wee bit of a nail-biter myself.
	But, yeah, it's a great question.
	Let's tackle it, you know, as two people who have this not-so-ideal habit.
	I'm sure there is more that you want to add to what we've introduced with?
	Yeah, I guess I could...
	Expand on a bit of all the different types of behavior that I have.
	So it's not just the nail biting or ripping of my beard or ripping the beard.
	I also bite or rip my cuticles.
	I had to look that word up in the dictionary because English isn't my first language.
	And then I also go through my scalp With my fingers to find if there are any scabs there and if there are, I tend to rip those apart and it sometimes looks pretty horrible.
	And sometimes I've gotten infections in my fingers because of the biting and things like that.
	So in that way it has affected negatively my life but I haven't been able to stop it.
	Do you remember when it started?
	It's really difficult to tell because As long as I remember, at least I can remember that my mom used to pull my hand out of my mouth when I was biting my nails.
	So she would physically take my hand and take it out as a measure of telling me to stop doing it.
	What age is that?
	I'd say probably around 10 years old or something like that, if I had to guess.
	But it's really difficult to say.
	Do you remember as a child seeing anybody or was there anybody in your environment who had these or similar compulsive behaviors?
	I guess my mother might be, but I can't really be sure about that.
	Thank you.
	Really difficult to say.
	My mother may be my siblings, so I have an older sister and older brother.
	I guess my sister may have done it, but it's really difficult to say.
	I can't really remember. Well, I mean, do they still?
	I mean, you can see their nails, right?
	I haven't looked at it so in detail, so unfortunately I can't tell.
	Right, okay. That's a good question, though.
	That's a good question. I need to think about it next time I meet them.
	Okay, okay.
	So, I guess, tell me about your father.
	Yeah, so he's a very silent person.
	He's a person who likes to spend time alone.
	He grew up on a farm and he comes from a big family, the second oldest child.
	I guess he moved out to go to school when he was pretty young, something like 13 years old.
	And I believe he didn't have a very close relationship to his own father, so that's my grandfather.
	And when I was a child, he would be like, well, he still is more or less, but he would be very passive and very silent about things.
	But then when something would bother him, he would close up even more until it's too much, and then he would snap suddenly.
	So I stopped basically talking because I used to be a very talkative person when I was a little child and I remember that there were...
	I have like these memories of these moments where I would keep talking to my dad and he would like not respond at all and then I remember a couple of instances where I would keep talking on about a specific topic that I was really interested in and he would just suddenly be like stop talking about it or just you know suddenly get mad and I would be really confused what's going on so I remember a specific instance that after that I just stopped talking to him and that's like I never I've never really talked about anything important or things that I find important to him and it never again Well,
	then again, the question, or I guess the question is, did he miss you?
	Right? If you decided not to talk to your dad, did he say, gosh, I really missed our conversations.
	Why are you not chatting with me?
	No, he has never said anything like that.
	I'm sorry about that.
	I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.
	I mean, I'm sorry for both of you, but, I mean, he's the actor and you're the reactor because he's the parent and you're the child, so my sympathy lies with you.
	But, you know, it's a really interesting question that needs to be explored in life as a whole.
	And the question is, it's a three-word question, am I missed?
	Am I missed? Am I missed?
	I just went through this with the de-platforming, right?
	Am I missed? How many people are going to come over to the new platforms?
	How many people are going to watch the videos if it's mildly inconvenient?
	Am I missed? It's really important to know your value in life to people.
	Are you missed? Will they seek you out if you're not pumping value into the relationship?
	Will they seek you out?
	Will they notice?
	Will they miss you? And I'm not saying play games like withdraw to find out because that's going to have people miss you a whole lot less.
	But, you know, just in general, you have conversations with your dad and then he snaps at you.
	You decide not to talk to him.
	And he's just like, yeah, okay.
	And how long has that been going on for?
	So that specific instance that I mentioned was I think I was around 10 years old.
	Because I remember there was a video game came out.
	When I discussed this, I had a short therapy last spring, like 20 meetings with a therapist.
	And I discussed this with him.
	So that was the first time I actually jumped into this thing in particular.
	So there was this video game coming up at that time.
	And I was talking about that.
	And I remember it was such a cool thing.
	It was like the coolest thing I had seen so far in my life.
	And I wanted to buy that with my weekend allowance.
	Which game is it?
	Worms! If you remember that.
	Yeah, you remember the turn-based game.
	So it was the coolest thing that I had ever seen so far.
	So I wanted to buy that.
	Because I had seen it when visiting at my cousin's and then I had seen it at my neighbor's and friend's.
	And I had played it there, so I wanted to buy it myself because I wanted to play it myself, so I would keep talking to him.
	And then when I was talking to him, he was like, if you keep talking about that game, then you won't be able to buy it.
	And that was just really shocking.
	Oh, so he basically was bribing you with the game, but you had to shut up.
	Something like that, yeah.
	Wow, I'm sorry.
	Listen... There are...
	I mean, you're a dad, right?
	Yes. So you know what happens occasionally.
	Maybe sometimes not occasionally.
	Your kids get interested in a topic that you just don't care about.
	And you try. But, you know, and usually it's a bit of a phase, right?
	But kids get involved or interested in a topic and they'll tell you a lot about it and you've got to kind of shake your head and really concentrate and make sure you follow, right?
	And then you can find out what's interesting about it and why it's unknown.
	So, you know, every parent has gone through this, oh, my child is telling me something, they're very enthusiastic about it, but I'm thinking about when my taxes are due.
	All parents have that, but to this degree where there's this real hostility to what you're enthusiastic about, you know, my guess is that what bothered him most was the enthusiasm.
	Yeah, that's my understanding as well.
	A child's enthusiasm can be enormously painful to dyspeptic or negative people, people who are what used to be called choleric or melancholic or whatever.
	If you were raised in an environment, maybe your dad was raised in an environment where enthusiasm was crushed, which is pretty standard parenting all throughout the world, it crushed children's enthusiasm and That which is left over from the parents is generally crushed by the government schools,
	but if enthusiasm bred attack in your father's environment when he was growing up, then he would view enthusiasm in the same way that you would view your son going to feed a wild alligator, right? Like, whatever you do, don't do that!
	You're in grave danger of your life, right?
	To kill enthusiasm because enthusiasm was attacked.
	You know, I mean, the powers that be, they need us all pretty miserable, right?
	Scared, angry, upset, paranoid, or sometimes not so paranoid or paranoid for good reason.
	And so enthusiasm is like the antidote to power, right?
	Because if you're enthusiastic, And you're happy, then, well, you're not going to be committing crimes, you're not going to be so easy to rule, and you're really not going to need to stay as much, right?
	So you've got to keep us all pretty miserable.
	And they do that through the mechanism of parenting and education to make sure that enthusiasm is ground out of us, and that way we'll stay subjugated, you know.
	So, I mean, there's parenting, there's also politics involved in parenting the The parents are generally the transmitters of the virus of statism.
	And so, yeah, I would imagine that was probably your...
	And this is why he was so silent.
	And this is why, you know, can you think of a time when he showed enthusiasm during your childhood or since, really?
	No, not really.
	Oh, you fogged out there.
	Yeah, yeah, I totally did.
	Because I... I just started thinking about it.
	What's he enthusiastic? I mean, if you're not enthusiastic for anything, I really don't know what the hell you're doing on the planet.
	I mean, we're not supposed to be cheerleaders of everything.
	We're not supposed to be cheerleaders of everything, but you've got to be enthusiastic about some things.
	Otherwise, what are you getting out of bed for?
	I don't really know about...
	I don't know about...
	I don't know what he thinks about things.
	I have no idea.
	I don't know if he's enthusiastic about pretty much anything, because he keeps to himself so much.
	My mom may know, but I have no idea.
	So you lived with the guy for 20 years, right?
	You've known him for over three decades.
	Trust me, man.
	Okay, let me ask you this. Do you think I'm enthusiastic about things?
	Yes. Yes.
	Do you think that your children are enthusiastic about things?
	Yes. Yes.
	Is your wife enthusiastic about things?
	Lately, yes.
	I guess when she was younger, yeah.
	Is your mother enthusiastic about things?
	Yeah, I would say so.
	So, that's also a little foggy.
	See, you should have empirical...
	There should be empirical evidence, right?
	In other words, oh, I remember when something arrived and my mother jumped up and down, or I remember when she was like, oh, I really want to go on this trip and I can't wait to get there, or a new book is coming out for my favorite author, I can't wait to...
	Like, enthusiastic about something, somewhere, somehow.
	Now, if you've lived cheek-by-jowl with people...
	Sorry, I know English is not your native.
	You've lived very close to people...
	For decades, if you don't have any memory of them being enthusiastic about anything, then they're not enthusiastic.
	There's no hidden chamber of their heart where they're remaining enthusiastic, right?
	It's empirical evidence.
	You would have seen it. Go ahead, sorry.
	There's one thing at least that I know of.
	It's going outdoors and, you know, Cross-country skiing and going camping and things like that.
	At least that's something that they're both enthusiastic.
	And singing, that's another thing that they're very enthusiastic about.
	But I don't know if it has been presented in their action or behavior so much, if you know what I mean.
	So it's more like when we were kids, they would take us camping and Go and put a campfire in the woods and things like that pretty regularly.
	But otherwise, I don't remember that they would be like really excited.
	Yeah, let's go. All right.
	It's so fun to go. I don't remember that type of behavior.
	I guess my mother would do that.
	That would suit her personality also.
	But my dad...
	I just don't remember my father ever, you know.
	I think he's enthusiastic about being alone.
	Being with his own thoughts.
	I don't really think that's enthusiasm.
	Getting away from people, like your family is a prison and you're breaking out, that's not really the same as enthusiastic.
	And what is your father's relationship to enthusiasm, right?
	So if he's not enthusiastic himself or pumped or pepped or whatever, What's his relationship?
	So I don't speak Japanese, but I'm not hostile to Japanese.
	So the fact that I don't have a particular characteristic such as speaking Japanese doesn't mean that I have a negative relationship with Japanese.
	So if your father is not enthusiastic, it doesn't mean necessarily Or causally that he's hostile to enthusiasm.
	But when you were enthusiastic, as you were with this Worms game, do I think Worms colon Armageddon?
	Is it Worms Armageddon? Is that one of the games?
	That's the newer version.
	So the game I was excited about was the very first version, like this dust game.
	Yeah, there's a whole genre of video games.
	Entire titles I know virtually nothing about.
	Like the Final Fantasy, Earthworm Jim, and the Worms one.
	I mean, I'm sure they're great. Plants vs.
	Zombies. I have no idea what these games are about.
	But anyway. So, yeah.
	So what is your father's relationship to enthusiasm?
	And I think, given that you were very enthusiastic about this video game, and your father was hostile to it.
	Not the video game, but your enthusiasm, right?
	Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's the case, because when I observe my own reactions, when my children are enthusiastic about something, so I can pretty much tell that, okay, that's how...
	Because when my, for example, my son is eight, and he's very similar to what I was like when I was his age, very enthusiastic about things and loves to talk about stuff and just...
	He just keeps on talking if no one tells him to tone it down or anything like that.
	And I can tell from my reactions that it makes me very uneasy, especially when it keeps going on.
	And rationally, I've been thinking, what's the problem?
	He loves talking about it.
	It's interesting to him.
	If I was interested in something, I still, at least with my wife and close friends, I just...
	Keep on talking about things.
	I have a tendency to get excited about things and I would just think about them and talk about them for weeks on end.
	So if my children do that, I feel very uneasy.
	I feel very anxious.
	Listening to your show has been very helpful for me because it's helped me spot these things in my own behavior.
	I don't need to act in a way that's...
	How do I say it?
	I don't need to be hostile towards that enthusiasm.
	Instead, I can just, you know, if it starts to bother me too much, then I can just gently tell him that, you know, you've been talking about this for a long time.
	Can we change the subjects or something like that or something, you know, address it in another way instead of, you know, just starting yelling at him or something like that.
	So judging from my own reactions to that enthusiasm, I would say that my father was very Very hostile toward it.
	Right. No, I think you're right.
	If your children are...
	I hate to say sort of babbling on because that sounds kind of insulting to children.
	Yeah, I try to avoid that language as well.
	Yeah, yeah. But if your child is talking without anything to do with a two-way conversation, that's fine when they're very little, right?
	Because they're just practicing language.
	You said he was eight, right?
	Yeah, so around the age of eight, it's good to start saying that, you know, it's great to chat about what you're enthusiastic about, but you do have to check in with the other person from time to time.
	Make sure they're following and see if they have any input.
	Because a lot of times what happens is children end up over-talking, like it's the wall of language.
	And they burn people out because they're not trained to reciprocity because when they're babies and toddlers, there's no need for reciprocity.
	But I think it's important to train children to stop, check in with the other person, ask if they have any comments, ask if they've had anything similar, like if he's talking about a video game.
	Oh, did you ever play a video game that you were enthusiastic about?
	Just make sure it's a two-way street.
	Because children will over-talk, so to speak, and then they burn people out and then communicate.
	They don't learn the back and forth, right?
	It's like trying to play tennis with one person.
	All you can do is practice.
	You can't really play. And so I think you're right to interrupt the flow of language and remind him that you're not just a listening receptacle, but conversation should be two-way.
	Yeah, I've been struggling with how to How to talk about that and teach that to my, especially my oldest, because I was never modeled that type of conversations in my childhood.
	So it's very easy to fall into that, you know, getting frustrated, you know.
	Or feel like you're being rude if you interrupt your child, right?
	Yes. No, it's not healthy, I think, in the long run for children because you have to prepare them for the world, right?
	And again, he's eight, so he's got a long way to go.
	But I think it's worth nudging a little bit here and saying to your son...
	Well, you give him a pause and just, you know, or when he's not in the conversation, right?
	The best time to solve problems is never during the problem, right?
	So it's always preemptive, right?
	So, you know, you go for a walk with your son and you say...
	You know, the best conversations is like playing ping pong.
	You need two people. The best conversations are two people.
	And I love your enthusiasm.
	I love what you care about.
	I'm fascinated by what you care about.
	But, you know, if I was just talking to you and you didn't say anything after a while, I would probably be thinking maybe you're not following the conversation.
	Maybe you're not super interested. Or maybe you're just getting spaced out because it's a one-way convo, right?
	And a one-way conversation is not really a conversation.
	It's called a monologue. And so when you talk, it's important to check in with the other person and not just make it what you're talking about, but also make sure that the other person has something to say as well.
	And you can make a joke out of it, right?
	So you can give a demonstration.
	Like, okay, I'm really interested in...
	X, right? Now, you could just start talking about X, and then you can say, okay, raise your hand when you've stopped following what I'm saying, right?
	And you just talk about it, and at some point, he's going to raise his hand, right?
	Ah, okay, so I made 90 seconds, and then you stopped following what I was saying.
	Now, then there's no point keeping going, right?
	Because you're not following what I'm saying, so I'm just talking using you as like a listening post or something like that.
	And then you can try a little bit – you can make a game out of it.
	Lift your hand when you start following what I'm saying or you've got bored or you've lost interest as a whole and all of that.
	And so, yeah, so it's important.
	You've got to check in with the person and say, are you following?
	Does it make sense? And also ask them for them because if it's just you talking, most people will stop listening maybe within five minutes usually.
	Unless it's some big formal speech.
	So you don't wait till he's talking and then interrupt him and try and solve the problem in the moment.
	you have a discussion about the parameters of decent conversation beforehand, right?
	Now once you've established the raise your hand when you've lost the flow of the conversation, then you kind of have – it's like a joke, right?
	And it's funny.
	So, you know, raise your hand, right?
	So when your son is then talking, you have this conversation a couple of times about decent conversations.
	If your son is then talking, talking, talking, you raise your hand.
	Hey, remember what this means, right?
	Oh, yeah, right. So you've got to set up the parameters ahead of time.
	It's never, never a good idea to try and solve the problems in the moment.
	It's always a good idea if there is something that you need to address to set up the parameters ahead of time with good humor and then you raise your hand or you could make a fart noise.
	It could be whatever an eight-year-old boy would like.
	I'm sure fart noises would be preferable to raising hands.
	It probably gives him school flashbacks.
	But yeah, the parenting stuff, the moment you try and solve the problem in the moment, at least when I have that impulse, oh, I haven't dealt with this problem ahead of time, so I'm going to try and solve the problem in the moment.
	I'm like, nope, I'll not do it.
	I'll wait till later and then have a conversation about the general issue.
	Does that make sense? That makes a lot of sense.
	That's actually really helpful because...
	Because the way we've addressed it with my wife so far has been always trying to solve it in the moment.
	And we would all both be...
	It doesn't need to be that he's talking about something.
	It can be some other thing as well.
	So we would like, in the moment, we would...
	Because we're both maybe, or one of us at least, is very frustrated about what's happening.
	So that makes it much more trickier to try to address it in the moment.
	So that's really helpful.
	Yeah, because in the moment, there's usually an emotional spillover that's a little bit bewildering for the child and you end up a little bit more short-tempered.
	And so many of these things, I mean, you know, with kids, you need such a light touch because they're so helpless, so dependent.
	You need such a little light touch.
	Just the raising of the hand can be a funny way to say, I've lost.
	And, you know, you want to be honest with your kids, right?
	I mean, if you've lost the thread of what they're talking about or you're distracted, there's nothing wrong with saying, I'm so sorry, I got distracted.
	Can you just rewind like 30 seconds?
	I do apologize and I'll pay more attention.
	Not your fault. You've got to be honest with your kids and if the wall of language is just washing you away, Again, once you feel irritated in the moment.
	Anyway, I've already made that point, so...
	Okay. So, enthusiasm, enthusiasm, enthusiasm.
	Let's talk about my hypothesis, my conjecture.
	Let's talk about me!
	No, I want to sort of gather information from you to see what I've thought about with regards to this conversation, whether it holds true or makes any sense.
	So... I want to talk about vulnerability.
	Vulnerability. So, if you're distant from your father, one of the things that happens with children who are distant from fathers is the children, I think, often feel unprotected.
	They feel vulnerable.
	They feel...
	Kind of at the mercy of anybody who might wish them ill.
	It could be bullies, it could be a mean teacher, it could be siblings, it could be anyone, right?
	But especially you said you're the youngest, right?
	So I'm the youngest as well.
	And the question of vulnerability, I think, is kind of correlated to the nail-biting.
	I'll get into that in a bit.
	But, you know, again, I don't want my idea to do anything to overthrow your actual experience because I am an empiricist, so...
	Did you, as a child, what was your relationship to when you'd get pushed around or when somebody would wish you ill or do more than wish you ill, maybe enact something that caused you something negative?
	What was your relationship to being pushed around as a kid?
	Well, I was bullied in school around, it started when I was around 10 years old apparently.
	It seems to have a correlation there.
	And I was bullied until I was something like 15 or so.
	So a couple of years of that.
	And if I try to remember how I reacted to that, it was either being passive, trying to be passive because I had been taught that, you know, turn the other cheek and And if you don't mind the bullies, then they will go away.
	Apparently it doesn't work that way.
	But then every now and then I would like...
	Oh, just something clicked in my head every now and then.
	I would then start shouting at the bullies and lash out verbally at them.
	Just like your dad, right?
	Yes, exactly. Just to remind the people, your dad would be passive, passive, passive, and then would blow up, right?
	Yes, yes. Okay.
	Now, you did a wonderful job of minimizing something right there.
	I just wanted to... I'd give you the bouquet of flowers for minimization, if I could, and I don't know if you noticed it.
	Do you know how you minimize the bullying immediately?
	Feel free to tell me.
	I have no idea. Sure.
	So, you said it was from the ages of 10 to 15, right?
	And then you said a few years.
	Now, first of all, that could be anywhere from five to seven years, right?
	Because it could be the beginning of ten to the end of fifteen, right?
	Now, that is a third of your childhood.
	And it's also during your formative years of puberty.
	Right? And the development of sexual interest and physical maturity.
	And so... A third of your childhood almost was consumed by being bullied and you then downgraded that to a few years.
	I'm not criticizing, I'm simply pointing it out that you told me something and then what happened was your parental alter egos, probably your father, was just a couple of years.
	So you told me something that's really appalling that you were bullied for half a decade or more And then you kind of...
	You told me something appalling and then it got downgraded immediately.
	You invited me to not look at it as that serious, but that's really serious.
	That's hugely serious. That's fascinating.
	Now, how would the bullying manifest itself?
	It was mostly being left out.
	So, especially with the boys.
	So, I would be...
	They would start these games when there was recess, so the other boys would play games, and if I tried to join them, they would go away, things like that.
	Then they would pick on me for being too good at school, like getting too good grades.
	I don't know if there's a word in English.
	Oh, there are many words for it.
	There are many words for it.
	Someone who does more schoolwork than necessary.
	Okay, so yeah, just so you know, the word's written in English, and there are tons of words, and for the people who are listening in, feel free to suggest more.
	So a couple of them are keener.
	So keen, he's a keener, right?
	Another one is apple polisher, because you love the teacher so much, you will not just bring an apple, you will polish the apple.
	Nerd, Brainiac, that there's a whole series of terms.
	Wherein intellectual abilities are scorned because people have this...
	Well, see, it's funny because people have this fear of intelligence that's not entirely unwarranted because intelligence can come with manipulation and sophistry and the destruction of the entire political system.
	So, yeah, it's...
	You know, they have some reason to be cautious or nervous about intelligence, but usually at that age, it's just...
	It's just a hostility towards something that someone is better at that they can't compete with, right?
	Yeah, so I guess I would get pretty good grades but not straight A's.
	Let's say something like that.
	Well, you might.
	You might have gotten straight A's except you're facing a strong headwind from your peers, right?
	Yeah, that's true as well.
	But the thing about it is that I never really put that much effort into it.
	So I did what I was told to do.
	And that got me pretty good grades.
	And somehow I wasn't really enthusiastic about schoolwork.
	Maybe mathematics or something like that.
	Or maybe languages. But other topics I just couldn't care less.
	And still I got pretty good grades because I was...
	My parents encouraged me to do the homework, so I did.
	And things stayed in my head at least until the tests came and so on.
	So I would get pretty good grades.
	And coming back to one of those moments when I would lash out against my classmates for doing those bullying activities was that it was in, I think, something like grade seven or grade eight.
	The teacher would say, we had had a test, and when she was returning the tests, she would say that, okay, we got one A, and then three Bs, and something like that.
	We have the numbers here, not the letters, but anyways.
	And when the teacher said that we had one A, people started whispering my name, and that somehow drove me up the wall.
	And I started shouting that, I didn't even study for this stupid test, you morons, or something like that.
	And I don't know, that somehow really got me worked up at that moment.
	So that's one example how it would play out.
	For some reason it bothered me really much when people thought that I was like this apple polisher or something like that.
	Right. Right, so if they were afraid of your intelligence, you shouting that you didn't even study for the test you got an A on, does not exactly reduce their concerns about your intelligence, right?
	Yeah, good point.
	Well, I mean, so to put this in context, you're part of a larger war for sexual selection, right?
	So, the war...
	In sexual selection is between physical strength and intellectual strength.
	The jocks and the nerds, right?
	Now, for most of human history, the jocks ruled.
	Those who were physically bigger and stronger, they ruled.
	And the nerds, well, didn't, right?
	They just had to pick up the leftovers as best they could.
	Now, when you have a free market, intelligence is far more valuable than physical strength or physical prowess.
	Reflexes, biceps, athletic abilities, they don't really matter when it comes to gathering wealth.
	I mean, Jeff Bezos, I guess he got kind of jacked later in life, but I don't think Elon Musk could bench press a kitten, right?
	So, when you get a free market, the...
	Sexual value, the sexual selection shifts from brawn to brain, from muscle to mind.
	Now, all of the people who have good physical abilities, the jocks, those people really don't like When the sexual selection tilts away from them towards the brains, of course, right?
	I mean, naturally. Any more than you would like it or that the nerds like it.
	I'm not calling you a nerd, right?
	I'm just saying that this is the typical swing.
	So, the brainiacs don't particularly like it when the cute girl chooses the dumb jock to take a stereotype, right?
	Because... I don't know.
	There was an old movie.
	I mentioned this before. There was an old movie, Network News.
	And there's this brainiac, this keener, Apple polisher.
	And there are these big dumb jocks who keep picking on him.
	And at one point, he does what you did, what your dad did.
	He turns and he screams at them.
	Yeah, you know, you're going to get stuck in this small town.
	You idiots are never going to make more than $20,000 a year.
	Never. And that's his big...
	And he doesn't go on to become very successful and all of that.
	Anyway, so the big jump jocks, they tell each other, say, whoa, $20,000 a year?
	That's pretty good. I'm thrilled.
	Right? So in terms of the high-value females, that's the battle between the brain and the body, the mind and the body, right?
	Right? And during a time of danger, during a time of social instability, women gravitate towards strong muscles and so on, right?
	And also they like somewhat unshaven because somewhat unshaven Usually indicates more physical aggression.
	We don't have to get into why.
	But a stubble is considered very attractive these days, which is not the case in the past at all.
	So, the dumb kids or the average intelligence kids wanted to exclude you and punish you for your intelligence.
	Because if you had both intelligence and confidence...
	Then you might be able to snag the high-value females.
	Whereas if they could punish you for your intelligence and set you at war against yourself, then you would be too insecure to approach or win the high-value females.
	You understand, it's a battle for sexual access.
	It's not personal.
	They didn't hate you for your personal qualities or your individual capacities.
	It had nothing to do with you fundamentally.
	It was just... It's the normal battle for high-value females.
	It's inevitable. It's all throughout the animal kingdom, including, of course, the human kingdom.
	When you see one stag battling another stag for a female, it's not like the one stag has a huge personal animosity to the other stag.
	It just hates his character. We have to fight because the female would choose the winner.
	Hey man, nothing personal.
	It's just that my genes are telling me to battle you because the high-value female would choose the winner.
	When the frogs attack each other and fight, again, it's not personal animosity.
	It's just all driven by the choices of the high-value females.
	And I say this not because, you know, I mean it's upsetting and it's hurtful and I get all of that and I'm not trying to say don't feel hurt or upset.
	What I'm saying is just don't take it personally.
	It's got nothing to do with you.
	It's just bald apes doing what bald apes do.
	The fact that you were unprotected, that to me is really, really important.
	But just, yeah, don't take it personally.
	And this is to all the people out there who listen to this show.
	You're top 1% of the 1% intellectually.
	I mean, without a doubt.
	And I've chatted with thousands of listeners over the years.
	And you're all just bloody brilliant, right?
	So just recognize that the attacks upon your intellect...
	It is nothing personal. They didn't evaluate your character, find you wanting, and decide to put you down for some moral reason.
	It's just like, oh, wow, if this guy, maybe you're physically attractive too, so if he's smart and physically attractive, man, we can't compete.
	He's going to get the high-value females.
	Now, we can't make him unattractive.
	Maybe they wanted to by beating you up, but that would get them into trouble.
	We can't make him less intelligent, But what we can do is punish him for his intelligence and set him at war against himself, and that way it could be smooth sailing to the high-value females.
	I have a very strong urge to start, well, doing what I used to do when I thought about bullying when I was younger, is to, you know, focus on, well, you know, I was a pretty annoying kid and I would...
	You know, flame my intelligence in their face.
	And that's why they started bullying.
	But I realized that...
	No, listen. Sorry to interrupt.
	You may very well have done that.
	And that's your fight back.
	See, it doesn't justify the bullying.
	It's like you're saying, oh, yeah.
	I mean, basically, that's what you...
	I'm so smart, I can get an A without even studying, you idiots.
	Hmm. And what that is, of course, is you're not talking to them.
	You're talking to the high-value females and saying, I get an A without even trying.
	Can you imagine how much money I'm going to make in the future?
	I mean, so everybody's – all the boys are talking to the high-value females.
	That's pretty much all the conversation.
	Sorry, go ahead. Can I share one thing that clicked me again with what you were just saying?
	So about the whole, you know, the sexual selection thing and everything.
	So when I was in grade nine, my now wife, her family moved to the city that I lived in then.
	And so we met at the church youth group and we started going out and, you know, One thing led to another, and now we've been married for quite a long time since then.
	So, anyways, people would start seeing me hang around with this pretty new girl who just came to the grade 9 and to our school.
	And one of my classmates, like the queen bee, so to say, so she was like the alpha female, smart, Intelligent, quite beautiful, good singer, things like that.
	And very, very self-centered, if I may add.
	And she, one day, I always wonder what this just stuck in my head ever since it happened.
	But one day she came to me in the hallway and she, like, in a very strange tone.
	Now that I think of it, it must have been something like a very, like, derisive tone.
	I don't know. She was like, oh, you have a girlfriend now.
	I was like, yeah, yeah, I do.
	What about it?
	So it kind of clicked me now because she, like how she would have that, be part of that whole system of, you know, keeping that intelligent person down.
	Right, right.
	Now, so the analysis of this is not to let your father off the hook at all.
	So, the reason I wanted to talk about this, and this is for the listeners as a whole, like, it's not personal.
	It's not like they... I mean, they try to make it personal because that's the most effective way to take someone out of the game, right?
	But here's the thing.
	It's your father's job.
	It's your father's job to protect you from bullies.
	I mean, I love women.
	Mothers are wonderful. We couldn't be here without you.
	You do amazing things in the world.
	But the number of moms who can help sons with bullying is, well, what they say vanishingly small.
	I'm sure there's a few, but it's the dad's job, right?
	I mean, it's the dad's job to protect the son after the mother has finished protecting the son from physical dangers.
	It's the dad's job to protect the son from social dangers.
	And your dad completely fucking failed.
	He completely failed.
	That's on him. 100%.
	100%.
	He needed to be there to help you navigate the dangers of being a high-value male.
	Because when you're a high-value male...
	Other males will try to pull you down, to set you at war against yourself, to exclude you, to punish you for whatever attributes make you high value.
	And it's even worse if what makes you high value is intellectual.
	Because you can turn an intellect against himself, but You can't make a handsome boy ugly, necessarily, right?
	So your dad had one job, which was to protect you from social dangers.
	Now, if your mother had let you play with steak knives, had let you play with fire, And you had tumbled down the stairs and broken an arm and she had failed to protect you.
	She dropped an iron on you.
	If she had failed to protect you, you grabbed something hot from the stove.
	If your mother had failed to protect you from physical dangers, what would people say?
	She's a bad mother.
	She's a terrible mother. And you're in grave danger.
	Now, it's exactly the same with fathers in social danger.
	It's exactly the same with fathers and social danger.
	Your mother had one primary job which was to keep you safe from physical danger.
	And your father had one job which was to keep you safe from social danger.
	Your mother had to keep you safe from physical injury.
	Your father had to keep you safe from social injury.
	And your father let you grab boiling water from the stove.
	He gave you matches to play with, steak knives to juggle.
	And he looked back with contentment as you continually got injured.
	And it was his job to protect you from those injuries, just as it's your job when your children get older, particularly your sons, and your daughters too.
	Obviously, your daughters, when it comes to competition for the attention of high-value males, women, girls can be as brutal as boys.
	Pulling each other down. And a lot of this, of course, has to do with the fact that we're all just children basically jammed into prisons every day, right?
	They're day prisoners in school, so they're around a whole bunch of people they don't want to be around and all that.
	So studying children in government schools is like studying animals in a zoo.
	Everything's distorted by the enclosures.
	So your dad's job was to keep you safe from social dangers.
	And he fucked up worse than could be conceived of.
	He didn't homeschool you.
	He didn't have you put into a school where people's values matched yours, whether it was a church school or something else.
	He put you in a situation where you were exposed to continual social dangers and did absolutely nothing to help you.
	You know what I want to say about that?
	I do know. I had some idea.
	He didn't know.
	How would he have known? Because I didn't tell him.
	But I've heard this argument before from other callers, so I know what the answer is.
	Yeah. No, and naturally, the moment that parental malfeasance, well, sorry, the moment that parental bad behavior is uncovered, the first thing we all want to do, I completely understand, the first thing we all want to do is protect the parents, right?
	Of course. Of course.
	But don't. Because if you defend your father, you will excuse yourself in the future, right?
	Yes. I mean, this is all about your kids, right?
	We can't fix your childhood, but we can prevent the same from happening to your children, right?
	I'm a bit at a loss how to approach this with my son or sons.
	I just... It's really difficult for me to imagine how to go about this, you know, helping them with these social dangers.
	I never had those conversations with my father.
	But it's all about prevention, not cure, right?
	So the way that you help children with social dangers is you have a close relationship with your children.
	And the bullies know that, right?
	The bullies can sense whether you have a close relationship to your father.
	And if you don't have a close relationship to your father, then the bullies will act knowing that they're not going to get in any particular trouble, that you're undefended, you're isolated, you're unprotected, right?
	You know, in Florida, the mother alligators Keep the young around for a couple of years and you never ever want to get between the mother alligator and her offspring, right? Because she will rip your head off.
	Now, when the alligator offspring get old enough, she drives them off and if they don't leave, she eats them.
	So it goes from one extreme to another, I suppose.
	But she's into protecting the young because the young cannot protect themselves.
	So the bullies scan for a close relationship to the father.
	Thank you.
	If there is a close relationship to the father, they know that if they bully, the child will come home, the father will know, the father will ask, the father will act, the father will call parents, the father will get them in trouble, right?
	So they don't do it. But if the child is abandoned, lost in space, no protector, separated from the herd, without a guardian, Aha!
	Easy meat. Easy prey.
	And they were right. You were easy prey.
	Not because of any weakness in your character.
	But because you were unprotected.
	A baby alligator without the mother alligator around just gets eaten.
	Is that because the baby alligator is weak and lacks more fiber and is a bad person?
	A bad alligator? Naughty?
	No! It's because it's small and weak and there's no parent to protect.
	Right? Because the bullying has us internal.
	Oh, I did something wrong.
	I was small. I was weak. I was an annoying kid.
	I bragged. That's all nonsense.
	That's all just a way of excusing both your parents.
	Both your parents. Because if your father forgot his duty, it was your mother's goddamn job to remind him.
	Oh, our son doesn't seem to be very happy.
	Our son seems to be kind of excluded.
	Our son doesn't have that many friends over.
	Talk to him and figure out what the hell's going on, oh husband of mine.
	Right? That's the only way he would ever do things with me and my siblings was when my mother would nag to him about...
	At least that's how I remember things.
	Did your mother know you were being bullied?
	Probably not, because I didn't tell her either.
	Before the bullying, the long-term bullying started, there was one kid a couple of years earlier.
	I had been in a summer camp and this one kid started bullying me there.
	And when school started then in the autumn, the same kid, he was one year older, he was at the same school and he would continue the bullying there.
	And I told about it at home.
	And my mother arranged a meeting with that bully's mother.
	I think he was like a single mom.
	The boy came from a single mom household.
	So we went there and talked about it there with the bully present.
	It was me, my mother, him and his mother.
	And after that conversation, the bullying stopped from him.
	Now, I don't know why...
	What happened? Because in that case, I told my parents.
	So that's how they knew about it.
	But after the long-term bullying started, it's really difficult to say why I wouldn't tell.
	I mean, yeah, there are probably many reasons.
	And they should know, of course.
	But I don't know.
	Maybe my mother would have done something about it if...
	If she would have known.
	She was very much like the authority figure in my family.
	Okay, okay. Listen, I sympathize with your self-criticism.
	I really do. But it's bullshit.
	I'll tell you why. Okay, so think of a boy who's being bullied.
	And the boy is, say, 13 or 14.
	He's beginning to grow his beard.
	His voice is breaking down into the froggy depths of adulthood.
	And he's being bullied.
	And who comes to solve the bullying?
	His mommy. Think that's going to help?
	No. No, sir!
	Oh, did you have to call on mom to solve your problems, little boy?
	You'd be a mama's boy. It's your dad's job.
	Sorry. Maybe when you're prepubescent, right?
	It's your mom's job.
	Or maybe it should be your dad's job as a whole anyway.
	But your mom did it. But if your mom rushes in when you're a teenager to solve the bullying problem, oh boy.
	Now, you say you didn't tell them.
	But you did. You tell them, and children tell their parents everything all the time involuntarily because the bullying affects your mood.
	And the mood change is what your parents are supposed to notice, right?
	Yeah, I can notice it from my kids immediately if there's something going on.
	You know immediately when your children are unhappy about something.
	Of course, right? And you also know that sometimes you have to pursue your children just a little bit to get them to tell you what the problem is.
	Right? Yeah.
	So the reason you didn't tell your parents is that they already knew.
	And they already signaled that they weren't going to help you.
	Because they didn't ask you what was wrong.
	Now, dealing with bullying is a complex thing, and if your parents knew that something was wrong but didn't want to help you, then they would probably mess up solving the bullying problem and make it worse because they'd already...
	Hey, we've already been really clear by not dealing with your mood that we don't want to help you with the bullying, so if you kind of corner us and make us help you with the bullying, we'll just find some way to make it worse.
	Right? Number one. Number two, if they genuinely, I don't know, for whatever completely bizarre reason, have no idea that you're unhappy, then they lack any emotional sensitivity or any social skills whatsoever, in which case dealing with something as complex as bullying, they'll mess it up because they're completely blind to human motivation, human emotions, and human experience, right?
	It'd be like me trying to negotiate with the Japanese ambassador.
	I don't know what the culture is, the language, right?
	I don't know the little niceties.
	So I would mess that up, right?
	So I don't see any circumstance under which telling your parents, when they already knew, would do any good.
	So it would seem to me that you're like, okay, I guess I'm on my own.
	This just reminded me that the same thing happened to my brother as well.
	So he would be bullied in grade one or two, something like that.
	My mother stepped in, bullying stopped for a while, bullying continued later, and my parents didn't do anything.
	He didn't tell actively, like me either, but also, you know, like what you had just said.
	It's the exact same thing happened with him.
	And also what you're doing is you're attempting to rescue the future of your relationship with your parents by giving them plausible deniability.
	Right? Because if you don't tell them, then the bullying can continue and then later when you're older and you feel resentment towards your parents, you can say, but they didn't know.
	It's my fault, really.
	I didn't tell them. And this way you can maintain the relationship without honesty by giving them plausible deniability, right?
	And that way, if you go, they say, oh, we didn't know.
	Well, why didn't you tell us? Okay, so let's turn to the nail-biting, all right?
	Do you know what the phrase, the word, declawed means?
	So that your...
	Nails have been cut off, basically.
	Or in a figurative sense that you have your, how do you say, ammunition taken away.
	I can't come up with a better explanation.
	Yeah, you declaw cats so they don't hurt you.
	It also means that they can't defend themselves if they're outside.
	So what dogs do is they set up a pecking hierarchy in a pack, right?
	Okay.
	And there's a dominant dog, and the other dogs signal their own submission by whining, putting their heads down to the ground, or if there's a conflict, then the dog that ends up winning, the other dog will go limp, will turn its head, will expose its neck, and thus signal its submission, submission, right?
	So you said you started biting your nails around the age of 10, at the same time, roughly, that the bullying started, and I would argue that was to signal your submission and to signal that you were and I would argue that was to signal your submission and to signal that
	That makes a lot of sense.
	Thank you.
	When I think about the situations in my adulthood, I think it was like a job interview or something, and the interviewers were very aggressive for some reason.
	It was very surprising to me that they started questioning my resume and things like that.
	Very, very aggressive, like in a very aggressive tone.
	First they were very friendly before the interview started and then they just did a 180 and then they started being very aggressive.
	And I remember that situation.
	I started, I have very vivid memories of the situation.
	I would like look at my nails almost the rest of, entirety of the rest of the interview and a little bit, you know, start How do you call it?
	I wouldn't bite them, but I would fidget with them with my other hand.
	Well, you would be signaling.
	You would be drawing their attention to your bitten-down nails, which would signal submission, right?
	Mm. You might as well be whining and exposing your throat, so to speak, right?
	Mm-hmm. To be unprotected in society is a pretty wild thing.
	It gives you a lot of freedom in many ways but it also exposes you to a lot of danger because protection always comes at a cost, right?
	Like if you want to be part of a coalition of conservatives who will protect you and so on then that comes at a cost of independent thought and critical inquiry, right?
	So if you are willing to forego the protection of the group Then you can challenge the morals of the group, you can advance society, you can do all kinds of cool things, but it does expose you to a good deal of danger at the same time.
	It's sort of like, you know, like the caribou, the ungulates.
	They, you know, they have these paths that they take when they migrate.
	Now, maybe there's a better path.
	Maybe there's a better path.
	Shorter. Because all the predators know the path that you're taking, right?
	Like the crocodiles all gather where the zebras are going to cross the river.
	And so if you're a caribou, let's say you're like, you know what, this path sucks.
	We lose like 10% of the herd every year to wolves.
	They know exactly where we're going to be.
	I'm going to strike out and see if I can find a new path, right?
	Now maybe you'll save the herd.
	Maybe it'll be brilliant and you'll completely re-engineer how the herd moves and the wolves will be distracted and confused and you'll save hundreds of your fellow caribou and blah, blah, blah, right?
	But in order to go and find this new path, you've got to go off on your own.
	Ooh, that's bad, because if the wolf pack comes across you, you're fucking dead.
	So you have freedom when you separate from the herd, but it comes at great risk.
	Which is why a lot of people don't do it, right?
	But it's why all progress comes from those who separate themselves from the herd.
	So, in a situation of aggression, now, in a rational society, we would negotiate according to reason and evidence and so on, but in an anti-rational society, it's dominance and submission, because basically we've become highly sophisticated apes with laptops.
	So how do we How do we signal our submission?
	Well, one of the ways we do it is through posture.
	You know, that sort of sloping, shouldered staring at the ground, mumbling to yourself, walking around, hands in your pockets, shoulders hunched, all that.
	We do it through posture. We do it through a lack of eye contact, signaling nervousness.
	We do it through a quiver in the voice.
	We do it through grooming if we don't take care of ourselves.
	We do it through body odors sometimes, saying, I don't have social skills, you can dominate me.
	And we also do it through the physical evidence of nail biting.
	Nail biting signals, I will submit.
	Now, why would nail biting develop?
	Because you need some symbol of submission when you're unprotected and you're being set upon by wolves.
	That's a bad analogy because a wolf will kill you no matter what, right?
	But you need some signal that you're unprotected by your father.
	So the people who bit their nails and thus reduced attack by signaling submission probably did better than those who had no physical markers.
	And therefore, the submission requirement would escalate to violence, right?
	And they might get killed.
	Because when we don't negotiate through language, we end up negotiating through other things.
	And a lot of the animal kingdom, of course, negotiates without lethal violence.
	And I think that nail biting or this beard picking or the hair picking and so on is a way of signaling to people, I'm unprotected by my father and I will submit.
	And that way you avoid the escalation that could result in violence.
	That's quite something I have to say.
	Well, it's just a conjecture, and obviously if it doesn't match with your experience, we'll toss it aside, and that's why I appreciate this conversation, right?
	Actually, it does make a lot of sense, so no need to toss that aside at all.
	That's quite something.
	Because it threw my mind in a huge loop thinking about it.
	So that's why I'm so silent.
	Tell me. I'm happy to have this.
	I want to make sure this is two-way.
	I cancel you to not have your son have a one-way conversation.
	So if you can take me on your journey, I'd be thrilled.
	So... Yes.
	Like... The thing I've been thinking about now during this conversation, when you started talking about the declawing thing, was that I've always had a fascination to violence.
	Ever since when I was a little child, the first time I saw, you know, the cartoon Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
	So I would see the first time I saw that on TV, I was maybe five or something.
	And that was, again, like the most amazing thing I had.
	There was an explosion on TV and that was like It was just so amazing.
	I couldn't describe it.
	I remember the feeling that I got seeing just an explosion on TV. That was just...
	And then playing with those toys.
	I've always loved war games and things like that.
	But then on the other hand, I've always been very...
	I'm afraid of physical altercations.
	So if someone would push me or anything, I didn't really experience that much of that during my childhood.
	But then in my late teens, let's say 18, 19, I started, you know, I wanted to learn to fight.
	For some reason, that was very fascinating to me.
	I started doing kickboxing.
	I did Taekwondo for a couple of years.
	Lately, before COVID lockdowns, I've been doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and grappling.
	When I started grappling, because that's very physical, it was really, really intimidating to have that full contact with another man.
	It was very weird because I didn't really get that much roughhousing when I was a kid.
	There was not that kind of play.
	When we played with the neighbor kids, we always had these war games.
	We would have sticks or toy guns and we would just shout like bam bam bam and you're dead or I'm dead, something like that.
	But we never did this wrestling or grappling or play fighting that much.
	It was very much discouraged in school and also at home.
	I've always had a strong fascination with learning to fight for some reason.
	And grappling, when I got over the stress of the physical contact in grappling sports, it started being very...
	How do I say it?
	It's like something clicked inside my head at that point.
	Like verbally intimidation didn't feel so bad anymore after that.
	Because until then I mentioned the job interview thing.
	So it really made me feel very unsecure.
	When I would start doing those combat sports, at least I could rationalize it, that okay, even if that person was very aggressive towards me, I would still be okay if it turned into a physical altercation, because I would have at least some idea what to do.
	I wouldn't be that much unprotected.
	I don't know if that makes any sense, but that's something that I started thinking about.
	No, I think that's very interesting.
	Now, did you find that the physical work that you did in self-defense, did it help you with any of your compulsive behaviors?
	No. Maybe it might have when I was able to do it more regularly.
	I haven't been on the mats for almost a year or so.
	I would argue that it probably wouldn't.
	Now, there's nothing wrong.
	You know, I have an easy relationship to martial arts, so let's not dig into the balance of that long-ago controversy, but I will say this, that the issue of why you were bullied had nothing to do with whether you were willing to physically fight.
	Do you know why? Tell me.
	Because it's letting your father off the hook.
	It's another way of taking ownership for yourself.
	Well, if I'd known how to fight, if I had, you know, because you could have said, I want to go do jiu-jitsu as a child or whatever it is, right?
	Judo, karate, or kickboxing or something, right?
	Or Krav Maga, you could say.
	But you didn't say, you didn't work to become physically stronger and physically fight as a child.
	and it's another way of putting the blame on yourself.
	I guess there's a thought in my head that if I can defend myself well enough, then I'll be safe or something like that.
	It's something that I sometimes think about.
	Have you ever been in a situation where you felt that punching your way out would have solved the problem?
	Never. So, statistically, you're spending hundreds and hundreds of hours.
	Now, outside the health benefits and the social aspect, I'm just talking about the particular skill, right?
	Because you can get the health benefits from a squash league or something like that, right?
	So, you are pouring hundreds of hours into trying to solve a problem that has never once arisen in your life and will almost certainly never arise in your life.
	So, from a statistical standpoint, You're solving a non-existent problem.
	And the question is why?
	And particularly now you're in your 30s.
	I mean, knowing martial arts doesn't help you in an aggressive job interview.
	At least I hope it doesn't. You do body slam someone for asking tough questions.
	I mean, if you look at Joe Rogan, when Joe Rogan had me on that last time, I mean, he's a pretty good martial artist, right?
	Mm-hmm. But what he did was just, you know, attempt to grind and humiliate and blah, blah, blah, right?
	He did it with language, with videos or whatever, right?
	I mean, let's say that I had known as martial arts the way that Joe Rogan knows martial arts, we still wouldn't be sparring, right?
	So... Pouring energy into solving a problem that doesn't exist in your life.
	And again, it may be totally health benefits, social exercise, all may be good, right?
	I'm not sort of trying to say don't do it.
	I'm just saying it's important to know why.
	And it's not solving the nail biting, right?
	Now, the nail biting was, I would argue, the nail biting was a symbol when you were young that you were unprotected by your father.
	But now, you are a father.
	You don't need to be protected by your father.
	I think you need to get angry at your father for not protecting you because anger is a way of signaling something is different.
	Anger is the emotion that tells us circumstances have changed.
	So imagine this, right?
	You're out hunting with a friend and you say, hey man, keep a lookout for bears, right?
	And then he dozes off.
	And then a bear rushes at you.
	And you grab him, and you shake him awake, and you all run away, right?
	So your first emotion will be what?
	Can you repeat? Sorry, I was spacing out.
	I'm so sorry. No, that's fine.
	So let's say you're going hunting with your friend Bob, right?
	And you say to Bob, hey man, keep an eye out for bears.
	And Bob says, yes, absolutely, right?
	And then, I don't know, he climbs up a blind and you stay at the bottom or whatever.
	So he's safe, right? But then a bear comes up and rushes at you and you have to run away, right?
	And as you're running away, Bob says from up in the tree, oh, I'm sorry, man, I fell asleep.
	Now, the first emotion you feel when the bear rushes at you is what?
	Anger. No!
	Fear! Fear! Fear!
	Fear! Now, let's say that the bear wanders off, doesn't kill you.
	What's the next emotion you feel?
	Anger, then. Right.
	As long as the bear is chasing you, you feel only fear.
	Anger is the signal that the situation has changed.
	Hmm. And if you deny yourself anger, you're basically stuck in a circular rut.
	If you deny yourself anger, you're saying the situation has not changed.
	Now, you have every right to say to Bob, you complete and total clusterfreck.
	You almost got me killed. You had one job.
	Look out for bears.
	I'm sorry I fell asleep.
	You almost got me killed, man.
	You're going to get angry at him.
	Now, the anger is a sign that the bear is gone.
	And the only reason you'd keep running and being scared of the bear and never confront Bob is because you believe the bear is still behind you, right?
	You're still in the same situation.
	Anger tells you that the situation has changed.
	So if you don't get angry at your father for failing to protect you, you're saying, hey, I'm still 10.
	I'm still 11. I'm still in danger.
	The bear is still chasing me.
	But anger is when your body says, okay, now we're safe, now we can deal with the problem.
	And that's why when you sort of started minimizing and excusing your dad, and I think that the martial arts is part of that.
	I think the martial arts is, well, the problem was that I just, I didn't have physical self-defense.
	But even that goes back to your dad, because your dad could have said, hey, man, if you want to deal with bullying, then...
	We've got to get you into self-defense, right?
	Except, except, what's the problem with that?
	when you were a kid, what's the problem with martial arts?
	It was discouraged.
	No, let's say that you had learned martial arts when you were 10, right?
	What's the problem with martial arts?
	With regards to the bullying you experienced.
	It won't solve the problem anyway.
	I wouldn't learn any skills that would actually help with the bullying.
	Okay, this is a little tough one.
	You're a smart guy, right? I'm sorry.
	This is a tough one for you to get.
	Martial arts would not have helped with the bullying you experienced because the bullying you experienced was not violent.
	Yeah. I mean, you quoted verbal mockery, verbal put-downs, exclusion, isolation, rejection, all of these things, right?
	Now, how the hell is martial arts supposed to help you with kids who don't want to play?
	If they don't want to play with you, are you supposed to beat them up?
	That makes you the asshole.
	That makes you the bully. Now, if you said, well, the primary problem I had when I was bullied was the bullies would beat me up, okay, then martial arts could help with that, right?
	But when you're facing ostracism and verbal abuse, you can't beat people up for verbal abuse.
	You can't beat kids up for not wanting to play with you.
	Right? Then you're the bad person.
	Because they're not violating the non-aggression principle.
	You are. So you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist In your current life and would have turned you into a bad person if you had learned it as a child.
	I'll teach you to not want to play with me.
	Punch, punch, punch. I mean, come on.
	People have the right to not want to play with you.
	You don't have the right to initiate the use of force against them.
	Right? People have the right to mutter your name when the teacher calls out an A, right?
	What are you going to do? Beat them up for muttering your name?
	It doesn't solve the problem that you were unprotected by your father.
	And you learning how to deal out violence doesn't solve the problem you had as a child, which is why it's not affecting your nail-biting.
	So, I had a discussion with my parents, maybe it was less than a year ago.
	Concerning my childhood.
	I guess now thinking back to it, it was quite polished.
	I wouldn't go into that in enough detail now thinking back on it.
	But I did address things like being neglected as a child and being bullied at school and not getting any support for that.
	And there probably was the We did the best we could with the knowledge we had.
	I didn't push them about it or anything.
	I guess I should have that conversation again.
	The thing about that conversation which stuck with me was that my father was very stone-faced the whole time.
	The only person, basically, who I talked with was my mother.
	My father was present in the room.
	He would maybe look at me, but I could see no emotion in his eyes.
	And do you understand, hang on, sorry, do you understand why you were so vulnerable to ostracism at school?
	Okay.
	because your father ostracized you at home and your father ostracized you in this conversation and your father ostracized you in this conversation He rejected and excluded you from the conversation because he refused to participate.
	Sat there stone-faced, ostracizing you in the moment.
	He ostracized you at home by saying, I will bribe you with a video game called Worms just to shut the hell up.
	That's ostracism, man.
	That's rejection. That's isolation.
	So then the kids at school act out exactly the same thing.
	Your intelligence and your perceptiveness and your curiosity is going to threaten your father.
	Your intelligence threatens your father.
	And so the kids at school acted out contempt for your intelligence.
	which is fear of your intelligence.
	Why is it so difficult a pill to swallow that?
	Because I got very emotional now that you said about my father ostracizing me.
	And why is it so difficult to not, you know, In my head, not to address it with sympathy for him and for his childhood and things like that.
	Why is that so difficult?
	Because it's really freaking difficult for me to be angry at him without giving him excuses and things like that.
	It's annoying me very much.
	I can tell you why, if you like.
	Go ahead, please. So, let's say that you slip at the edge of a cliff and you're just hanging on to a tree root that's being pulled out of the ground and you're going to fall to your death and then a person you enormously dislike comes and offers you a hand to save you.
	You're going to feel quite positive towards that person, right?
	Mm-hmm. So, you have the belief in a bond with your father that is based upon your self-erasure.
	And your father's demand, it seems to me, is that you do self-erase in order to have any kind of interaction with him.
	And if you do something that displeases him, in other words, you bring up something that he may have done wrong when you were a child, he gets stone-faced and clearly signals to you That if you want to have any kind of contact with him, you better shut up and self-erase and not cause him any trouble, right? And the very difficult thing is, am I missed?
	In other words, if you show up honestly in the lives of the people around you, if you are yourself, if you speak your thoughts properly, And your feelings honestly, openly, in the moment.
	What I call real-time relationships, right?
	If you speak your mind to people like you, do they want you around?
	Do they care about you? Do they notice when you don't?
	Do they miss you when you're gone? Now you tried to be honest with your parents and your mother turned you from a victim into kind of an abuser.
	Can you explain that?
	What do you mean by that? Sure, sure.
	So imagine that you're an athlete and you obey your coach.
	Your coach tells you eat this, you eat that.
	Your coach tells you sleep this long, you sleep this long.
	The coach tells you exercise this way, this amount, and you exercise this way, this amount.
	And then when it comes to the race, you run as hard as you possibly can But you don't win.
	And you've been following your coach's instructions and you ran as fast as you can.
	Now, if the coach says, you're a bad person because you didn't do the right thing or try as hard as you should, right?
	And you say, look, I did my absolute very best.
	I followed your instructions and I ran my very hardest, right?
	If you keep saying you're a bad athlete, you're a bad person, you don't do the right thing, is he being a jerk?
	Yes. Yes, he is.
	In other words, he's a victimizer because he's saying you doing the best you could but the knowledge you had is not enough.
	You're still a bad person, still a bad athlete, still lazy, still whatever, right?
	Because he's creating a standard that you can't possibly meet.
	You did everything he said, you ran as hard as you could, and you're still getting blamed for losing, right?
	Like he had nothing to do with it.
	So when you go to your parents and you say there were deficiencies in your parenting and they say, hey, we did the best we could with the knowledge we had, then you're asking in their minds, you're asking them to conform to an impossible standard.
	And now you're not a victim.
	You're actually kind of an abuser in the same way that the coach would be an abuser for saying you're a bad person, a bad athlete, lazy when you did the best you could with the knowledge you had.
	Does this make sense?
	Yeah, it does. Now you're a bad person.
	How could you ask people to do more than the best they could with the knowledge they had?
	Well, of course you can always ask them to do more.
	And the big challenge with these kinds of conversations, and this is what I said in these situations, People say to me, I did the best I could with the knowledge I had.
	Then I will say, prove it.
	And they'll say, what? No, no, no, this is a magic spell.
	These are magic words designed to get me out of trouble.
	I did the best I could with the knowledge I had.
	Right? I say, prove it.
	And they say, what are you talking about?
	I'd say, okay, well, tell me all the parenting books you read.
	Thank you.
	Tell me all the times you asked me how I was doing in school and really dug in to find the answer.
	Tell me how you know for sure you did the very best you could with the knowledge you had.
	I don't even know what that means.
	I did the best I could with the knowledge I have.
	How do you know that that's the very best you could have done?
	How do you know that's the very greatest knowledge you could have achieved?
	That's a magic spell designed to turn a victim into an abuser and have them self-attack For being honest and vulnerable.
	So when somebody says, I did the best I could, but the knowledge I had, prove it.
	Prove that you acquired all the necessary knowledge and then prove to me that you did the very best with that knowledge.
	And of course you can't prove that.
	So then I'd say, then shut the hell up with these mealy-mouthed excuses and let's have an honest conversation.
	You didn't do the best you could with the knowledge you had.
	Because that's a meaningless standard designed to make you no longer a victim but rather an abuser.
	I can't believe you're being so mean to your parents who did the very best they could with the knowledge they had and you're still dissatisfied.
	What's wrong with you? We could do a role play if you like.
	If you want to do your mom, probably have to do your mom, not your dad who just stare at me, right?
	Yeah, I was thinking about the whole roleplay thing before the call-in, and I was like, how am I supposed to act out my father?
	Just say nothing. Yeah, let's do your mom.
	Yeah, I can be my mom. Okay, so mom, I would say, I would sit down and say, mom and dad, for what it's worth, mom, I do have some issues with the past.
	I guess you know I have these obsessive tendencies.
	I pick up my hair and my scalp.
	I get infected. I get cuticle infections.
	I got a nail bite obsessively.
	And I've sort of been thinking about it.
	I've been doing some therapy.
	I've been doing some self-work.
	I think a lot of it comes back because it started when I was 10 and 10 is when I started getting bullied at school.
	And even before that, when I was younger, oh no, maybe it's around the same time.
	Dad, I mean, you're probably not going to respond to this because you're kind of like an Easter Island statue over there, but I wanted the video game and I was enthusiastic about it.
	Then you basically told me, I'll only buy the game if you shut up about it.
	And then I sort of resolved not to talk to you about things I was enthusiastic about and you never even seem to notice.
	Like I can't think of a single time we've had a conversation where I was enthusiastic about anything in the past quarter century since then.
	And I do think that it was your job to figure out that I was bullied, and it was your job to try and find a way to solve or deal with it.
	And I'm kind of mad about it, to be honest.
	Because there was like a half decade there where I was just kind of twisting in the wind, getting bullied.
	And I'm mad.
	I think you, I mean, you did some great stuff as parents.
	I don't want to dismiss or take away that.
	And I will honor the great stuff you did until the day I die.
	But nobody's perfect and you guys certainly weren't.
	Neither am I. But this is an issue I think that's still important because it's still affecting my life.
	And I think I just need to have a conversation about what the hell happened in that half decade.
	How did this continue for so long?
	Well, I'm really sorry about what happened to you.
	I guess we made a lot of mistakes in our parenting.
	But my husband, why would you act like that?
	That's not the proper way to act with your child.
	That's not very nice.
	So why do you do that?
	So my son...
	I'm really sorry about it.
	I guess I wish we could go back in time, but...
	Yeah.
	I don't know what to say.
	So that's it. There's no time travel, therefore there's no conversation to be had about this really important issue.
	Well, what can I do to make it right?
	You can help me understand what the hell happened.
	Why the hell would you say to me, shut up and I'll buy you a video game?
	And why the hell would you never notice for the past 25 fucking years that I haven't talked to you about anything important?
	Do you care? Do you notice?
	Does it matter to you? And then I finally bring up something important, Dad, and you shrug and you say, well, there's no time machine and, hey, I don't know what to say.
	You're doing it again. So you can't apologize for not listening to me at the same time as you're trying to shut down a conversation in the here and now.
	The apology means nothing to me if you do that because you're still doing the same damn thing.
	I'm sorry I hit you, he says, hitting you again, right?
	So I need something more from you than a shrug We can't turn back time and I don't know what to say.
	I need more from you, Dad.
	I need you to actually be here in the conversation.
	I need to find out what the hell was going on for you.
	What was it like for you as a child?
	How the hell did this happen for so long?
	25 or more years.
	You can't just solve that with a shrug and another rejection.
	You've got to stop doing that because I won't put up with it.
	I will not accept being rejected.
	By my own father. And you're doing it now.
	I need you to open up your heart and your mind.
	Tell me what the hell was going on.
	So I'm doing that farther now?
	Either one. Maybe your mom would rush in.
	I don't know. It's your family.
	Let's do the mom.
	Well, he was... You remember what he was like.
	So he was depressed, I think.
	Don't you think so, too?
	And... I mean...
	He liked being alone, so...
	I guess, yeah. I should have probably been more, you know...
	supportive as a wife and...
	Telling him to spend more time with you guys, I guess.
	It's true that he didn't really play with any of you, you or your siblings, so that must have probably helped, I think.
	But that was never an option.
	There was never a realistic option.
	Mom, you chose dad, you chose to marry, you chose to date him, you got engaged to him, you chose to marry him, and you chose to have three children with him.
	And so you chose to bring children into this man's orbit.
	And then saying, well, he just likes to be alone.
	It's not an option. You can't have children and then say, well, my solitude is the most important thing in my life.
	Well, take your fucking solitude.
	Don't have kids. Once you have kids, that's off the table.
	That's not an option anymore.
	It's like saying, well, I don't like feeding pets, so I'm going to go and get three dogs and starve them to death.
	It's like, hey, if you don't want to feed pets, don't get pets.
	If you don't want to spend time with people, don't get married and have kids.
	But once you do get married and have kids, that's off the table.
	That's not an option anymore.
	And the fact that you guys let that be an option is terrible.
	It's not my fault.
	Dad was depressed.
	Well, maybe Dad was depressed because he was being an absent jerk to his children.
	Maybe the solution would have been to be somewhat emotionally and conversationally involved with his children.
	Maybe that would have made him feel better.
	But instead, no, we all just had to suffer with the silence, this rejection.
	And this, I'll buy you a $30 video game if it'll shut you the hell up.
	Come on, Dad. You've got to understand how that makes a kid feel.
	I mean, you're everything to me.
	You're the world to me.
	You're my god. You're the deity of my early existence.
	You just toss a CD on my lap and say, shut the hell up, kid.
	That's not right. And I bet you knew at the time that wasn't right.
	And what did you do about it?
	What have you done about it in the 25 or more years since?
	How long is this going to go on?
	Is it ever going to change?
	I need to know. I need to know.
	Because you ain't doing that to my kids, man.
	You are not doing that to my kids.
	And if you can't even acknowledge that you did it to me, that's not good.
	I can't have that around my kids.
	Can't do it. Because I can't be a good dad.
	I'm sorry? He's much nicer with your kids.
	And it was with you when you were smaller.
	So I think he's done it.
	But to be fair, I was also, I mean, I have also suffered from his silence.
	But you chose him.
	I didn't. You chose him.
	I didn't. I know.
	So don't play the victim with me, Mom.
	Come on. A, you chose him and B, you could have chosen to be more proactive to make him a better father.
	I'm not taking the onus off dad.
	He's still an adult. He made his own decisions.
	But you can't align yourself with me.
	I mean, you're an attractive woman.
	You had your pick of men. You chose him.
	I didn't. So don't tell me how much you suffered because you're trying to focus on me, right?
	Because I was the one not there by choice.
	Let's bring it back to me. So, Dad, what were you doing?
	Why was having children around so difficult for you?
	I mean, I'm not raising my voice and I'm mad, but I'm also really deeply curious.
	I mean, I have kids.
	Yeah, they can be a bit overwhelming at times, but I enjoy their company.
	I'm glad to have them in my life.
	I didn't really get that sense from you at all.
	So, what was it that was troublesome about having kids around for you?
	To my dad, I'll just try this out.
	So, well, when I was a child, I didn't...
	I didn't...
	If you remember what your grandfather was like, so...
	We didn't really have a relationship with him.
	He would always work at the farm and...
	Me and my brothers, we would always help with the work.
	I don't really know.
	I guess it was just difficult.
	I thought that bringing bread to the table was enough.
	I don't know but didn't you miss having good conversations with your dad isn't that a sad thing in your life that that didn't happen I don't know I don't even know what to say about that.
	Well, I assume, I mean, children like to chat with their parents, right?
	I mean, it's not like we got a whole lot of choices when we're kids, right?
	So we want to chat with our parents.
	And I'm sure you wanted to chat with your dad.
	You wanted to be close to your dad.
	And I assume, obviously, that it was a difficult or painful thing, that that didn't happen, right?
	Wasn't that a negative? Wouldn't you have preferred that to happen?
	Yes. So how on earth, dad, did it end up that you became what you disliked?
	How is it that you ended up missing your own father and being an absent dad yourself?
	I just need to understand that.
	Listen, this could be a problem for me too as I go forward in parenting.
	Maybe it doesn't show up until the kids are 10.
	I don't know. But I just need to understand.
	If you know how tough it is to not have a connection with your father, How did you end up so distant to me?
	I mean, you know how bad it is.
	you know how tough it is right how did that end up happening again i don't know life just slipped away somehow I mean, with all due respect, Dad, that's a really pathetic answer, and I won't accept it.
	Life doesn't just slip away.
	You make choices. You know, if I did badly on a test as a kid, you'd say, oh, you should have studied more, or why did you do so bad?
	I wouldn't say, hey, man, life just slipped away.
	I just didn't do well on the test.
	Just things happened. You would never have accepted that from me when I was eight years old.
	I'm not going to accept that from you when you're in your 50s.
	Let's try that again. How on earth did it happen, Dad, that you ended up recreating what caused you a huge amount of suffering when you were a child?
	How do you end up doing to me what your dad did to you?
	And I mean this with genuine affection and curiosity.
	I'm not trying to corner you or turn you into a bad guy.
	In this, I'm rabidly curious.
	I appreciate that.
	I'm sorry, I just haven't done the work.
	You know, I haven't done the...
	Well, I guess I have, but...
	There's just so much guilt that, I don't know, it's really difficult to talk about this.
	No, listen, I understand it's difficult to talk about it.
	I sympathize with that, I really do.
	So guilt about what?
	Guilt's about not being there, not being so absent.
	Right. And when did you first feel that guilt?
	Did you feel it when I was a kid or is it more recent or just now or what?
	I think when you were little, all of you, but also it's still difficult when your children come. but also it's still difficult when your children come.
	I like spending time with your children.
	They're wonderful, but it It does wear me out.
	We're not talking about my kids, Dad.
	We're talking about you and me. We can get to my kids, but let's get back to, did you feel guilt about it?
	I mean, do you remember this thing where you offered me the video game if I'd shut up about it?
	Yeah, I guess I have some memory of it.
	And did you feel bad about that?
	I mean, did you notice that it didn't come to you with enthusiastic stuff anymore?
	Were you relieved by that?
	Did it take pressure off you?
	Was it something you missed?
	I mean, what was your... I mean, I assume you noticed, right?
	Smart guy. Now I'm talking about myself.
	I really don't know what he would say to that.
	That's a really tough one.
	So yeah, he'd probably give you some kind of runaround.
	So then, I would say, so you know that you didn't do your best as a parent, right?
	Because he said I made mistakes or I should have done more or it was based on my dad or whatever.
	So listen, as soon as your dad says I made mistakes as a parent, then I would say, okay, so let's just fast forward to the conversation that happened very recently where you and mom basically told me you did the best you could with the knowledge you had.
	Now that you're admitting fault, which I think is a noble and admirable thing to do, I think it's fair to acknowledge that was a total lie.
	That you lied to me, to my face, about something I was begging you for information from.
	This shit is not in the past.
	You know, oh, there's no time machine.
	Yeah, there's no time machine, but how about you stop doing this bullshit in the present?
	How about you stop lying to me in the present?
	And trying to fob me off, as they say, with useless non-explanations.
	Because you know, and I know, and mom knows, and my two siblings know, you didn't do the best you could with the knowledge you had.
	But you just say that so that I'll shut up.
	It's the new video game.
	And it's unjust, and it's unfair, and it's wrong.
	And if you want to look for mistakes in parenting, you can just look to that conversation, or even this conversation, where you said, well, I don't know what to say.
	Of course you know what to say. You just don't want to say it.
	So you gotta just stop bullshitting me, Dad.
	I mean, lying is weak.
	It's pitiful. It's cowardly.
	You get a man up, take responsibility for what you did and what you didn't do.
	But this lying? It's like you're some little girl caught with her hand in the cookie jar.
	It's embarrassing. It's ridiculous.
	It's spineless. It's weak. And it's nothing that's going to cause me to lose respect faster than watching you try to bullshit your way out of an important conversation.
	Sitting there stone-faced and radiating displeasure.
	It's so weak. You can't handle a little criticism from your children.
	I mean, how fragile are you?
	I'd like to think of you as a strong guy.
	Because if I have to define masculinity as kind of the opposite of you, we're going to have nothing in common at all.
	If I have to define being a father as being kind of the opposite of what you do, we have a big problem.
	And we have a problem that can't be solved.
	And yeah, you talk about being good around my kids.
	Yeah, mom's right. You're pretty good.
	You could be great fun around my kids.
	You understand? That's more painful to me.
	Because it means you know how to do it right.
	You just didn't do it with me or my siblings.
	It means you know how to be an engaged, involved, and playful father or grandfather.
	You just didn't do it with us.
	You understand it's worse.
	If you were the same with my kids, I'd have more sympathy.
	But the fact that you're better with my kids than you were with me I don't know if you think that makes it better.
	It actually makes it way worse.
	It means you know how to do it.
	You could have done it any time.
	And the reason you're better with my kids is that they don't pose any threat to you.
	And the reason that you bullshit me, Dad, is because you're terrified of me, because you know you've done me wrong, and you don't want to admit it, and you don't want to heal, and you don't want to be honest.
	I get that, of course. It would be much more convenient for you in the moment if I continued to enable these lies.
	I continued to ignore these family-wrecking falsehoods.
	I continued to pretend what was real wasn't real.
	I get it, but it could be convenient for you in the short run in the same way it's convenient.
	For an alcoholic to get a drink in the short run, but you understand, it's wrecking our family in the long run.
	And I need you to think of the long run.
	Because if you think things are going to continue, and I'm just going to go right back in the box and shut the hell up, and you can bribe me with bullshit instead of a video game, it's not going to work.
	Right? I mean, you do the behavior that works until it stops working, and I'm here to tell you it's not going to work anymore.
	You can either adapt and be honest, man up and take responsibility, and actually work to fix things.
	Or you can continue to take the camera's way out of bullshit and stony faces and emptiness and weakness, in which case I'm just going to move on, as I can't have that in my life.
	I cannot have people who lie to me about my own history in my life.
	It's too disorienting for me.
	It's too destructive for me.
	I can't do it. I can't.
	I won't do it for the sake of my kids.
	Even if I were willing to do it for myself, I got a wife, I got kids who need me, who love me.
	I can't be spaced out because I spent time with my family of origin.
	I can't do it. I owe it to them to be as present as possible.
	And if you bullshit me about my own history, it separates me from my own children for a while and I can't do that.
	That's how it reproduces, right?
	Maybe that's how it reproduced with you.
	I don't know. Maybe you tried talking with your dad and he bullshitted you.
	And you just gave up. And maybe that's how it reproduced with me, but I'm telling you straight up, man, I can't do it.
	I won't. I guess I could conceivably, but I won't.
	So it's now or never, Dad.
	I need you to step up and be honest.
	What the hell happened? This is your moment.
	It's now and ever.
	What happened?
	It was too painful.
	It was painful.
	It was too painful? What was painful?
	Well, trying to be with you.
	With you and your siblings.
	It was... Okay. Why was it painful?
	What was painful? It must have reminded me of my own...
	your grandfather.
	I remember what he was like.
	And when we would visit them in the...
	during spring...
	Or, you know, winter holiday.
	He would hug you and be very joyful and joke around and things like that.
	But what else did he do? For the rest of the time that we would spend time there, he would watch cross-country skiing competitions on TV. And that's all he did.
	Maybe do some work there. Oh, that I remember.
	Yeah, that I remember.
	That was weird. Like strangers on the screen were more interesting to him than family in the house.
	You understand? Jokes were the thing that we could get out of him.
	Not much more. Kind of like how I was or how I am still.
	How old was I? And I appreciate you telling me that.
	I appreciate that memory. I do remember that now.
	How old was I, or my older siblings, how old were we when you first noticed that you were being like him?
	Quite small.
	And what did you promise yourself?
	And mom, did you notice it?
	I mean, you knew granddad obviously longer than we did.
	You met him before you married dad.
	Did you notice the similarity?
	Yes, I noticed it.
	It was quite similar in that regard.
	Always joking, but never any serious conversation.
	And did you guys talk about this before you had kids and say, well, let's not do that?
	No. No, I don't think we did.
	Why not? I mean, did you want the father of your children to be a different father than dad's dad?
	We didn't think about things in that way.
	We didn't understand things.
	You didn't know that what happens in childhood can have an effect on you as an adult?
	Come on. People have known that for thousands of years.
	Well, I guess, after all that we have been talking about now, I guess the truth of the matter is that we just wouldn't want to face it.
	I think it's that.
	Previously, I would have told myself and told you that we just didn't understand that we were immature.
	But you can't claim immaturity now, right?
	You can't claim immaturity now, and as I pointed out, you totally bullshitted me the last time we talked about this, which was very recently.
	So if the same pattern is going on now, you can't claim anything from youth, right?
	It's still happening now, right?
	You're right. I mean, if you've got a husband who sleeps around and he says, well, it's because as a teenager I had a lot of hormones, it's like, well, you're in your 50s now, so the hormone excuse doesn't really work.
	It's got to be something else, right?
	So what didn't you want to face?
	Is it something in you, mom?
	Like, I mean, we talked about dad's dad.
	What about your family? Well, you know, your grandfather, the other grandfather, he was, well, you have noticed that our marriage is quite similar to my mother's marriage, that my father is like a very, very submissive man who's a very diligent worker, but never really crosses anyone.
	And my mother was a very authoritative woman.
	I was distant from my mother.
	but we did talk about things with my mother.
	What do you mean?
	I don't know.
	I looked for stability because I had a very stable childhood.
	So when I chose your father, I was looking for the same kind of stability that I had when I was a child.
	I guess it didn't completely work out.
	How did it? That just seems like filibustering, like you're just talking, to avoid something.
	What did you want to...
	You said we wanted to avoid something.
	What is it that you wanted to avoid?
	By not talking about how dad's parenting was like his dad's.
	Well, for example, yeah.
	So what is it you wanted to avoid?
	Not being close to you.
	Sorry, say again? We wanted to avoid not being close to you.
	I mean... No, no, no.
	That's a non-answer.
	No, because that's exactly what happened.
	So you kind of wanted to avoid something and then completely enacted it.
	There's got to be something that you enacted being distant from me in order to avoid what?
	To avoid what? It's like saying, I wanted to avoid a crash, so I drove blindfolded.
	No, that's... That's not right, because the family crashed, right?
	We were distant. So what is it?
	They're getting close to us.
	What we call love, what would that have cost you?
	What were you avoiding by avoiding that connection?
	That's a very difficult question.
	Sorry, say again.
	That's a very difficult question.
	Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is.
	And I don't know what the answer to that is.
	But do you think we need to know the answer to that as a family?
	Yes, I think we do.
	Will you commit to trying to find it?
	And doing whatever it takes to find the answer to that?
	If it means therapy, if it means self-work, if it means talking to your parents, if they're still around, will you commit to getting me an answer to that question?
	Yes. We noticed how good the therapy did for you.
	Okay. And Dad, will you commit to the same thing?
	Will you commit to finding out why you stayed distant from your children when you were a dad when we were younger?
	Will you commit to finding that out?
	Yes. And when?
	When will you give me that answer?
	Because, you know, if you don't have a deadline, nothing gets done, right?
	Is it a month?
	At least to have a start to the answer?
	I think we can return to this after one month.
	Thank you.
	Will you initiate it or shall I? Well, I think...
	My gut says that I would like you to do it, but...
	I mean, should I be the parent or should you be the parent, right?
	I realize that it's me who should initiate it because...
	I don't mind doing it.
	Listen, this is new stuff for all of us, and I hugely appreciate and admire you for your openness in this conversation.
	I know it's hard.
	I really do.
	And I appreciate and love you guys for doing this.
	I certainly will not take it negatively or hold it against you.
	If you guys are busy in self-knowledge work, I can initiate in a month.
	I'm not going to...
	I promise you I'm not going to be like, well, remember that time when you made me do all the...
	I'm not going to do that.
	I'm perfectly fine with it.
	I want you guys to focus on getting these essential answers.
	Thank you.
	I don't mind at all.
	Let's do that.
	All right.
	All right. So let's break out of the roleplay because I think that was actually pretty good and pretty successful.
	I mean, they're pretty cool in a way.
	Yeah, I think they're reasonable people if there's one way.
	With all their failings, especially my mom, she can be naggy or something like that, but she doesn't really lash out against if she's criticized.
	So she can take criticism pretty well, actually.
	And your dad softened up fairly well in that convo.
	Yeah. I think there's some kind of a wall that needs to be broken.
	if I want to get to that level.
	I'm very conflict avoidant so all the time that I would be discussing this is fearing that it will blow up at some point but of course it didn't really blow up during this role play but for some reason it's really difficult for me to keep on pushing Well,
	listen, to be fair, if I were in your shoes, I would be quaking, right?
	So it's easy for me because it's not my family, right?
	So this is an ideal situation that never manifests in the real world, just so you know, right?
	So this is, you know, like when you have arguments in your head and you always win, so to speak, right?
	It's not necessarily a real-world situation, right?
	So, yeah, so don't judge like, oh, well, Steph did it so well in the roleplay.
	Why can't I do it well in real life?
	That's an unrealistic standard.
	It's not my family, right?
	I'm just, it's a roleplay, right?
	So it may go this way.
	It may go some other way, of course, right?
	But I just, and the other thing too, I think what softened your dad was your dad probably has some belief that strong masculinity is being this stone-faced, emotionally unavailable guy.
	But once I pointed out that It was weak and he'd lied to me.
	I think that's what softened him up.
	Now, some people will react to that most aggressively, but I think your dad was like, well, wait a minute.
	Yeah, I did kind of lie to my son about doing the best I could.
	And that is, you know, lying is kind of weak.
	And I think that's what softened him up.
	Yeah. That makes sense.
	Yeah. All right.
	All right. Look, I mean, I think that's it for the convo.
	I mean, I'm certainly happy to hear if there's anything else that's on your mind as a whole, but I think that, yeah, just remember, man, the anger is there to tell you the situation has changed, and as long as The situation doesn't feel like it's changing.
	You can't get angry. But anger is a very healthy emotion because it signals a change of course.
	And you need to change a course, right?
	I mean, you don't want your kids inheriting your particular obsessive habits or judging you along those lines.
	And you don't want to keep signaling to everyone how submissive you are and all of that, right?
	The whole signaling submission is a really big mind frag for me.
	So I'll be thinking about that for the next couple of days.
	And I really, really appreciate the conversation.
	Hugely, hugely helpful for me as well.
	So thanks everyone so much.
	It's such a privilege, such a privilege to have these essential chats.
	And of course to record them as well for all time.
	People are going to be learning from these for hundreds of years.
	So I really appreciate that as well.
	FreeDomain.com forward slash donate.
	I appreciate your help and support with this.
	I guess we will see you tomorrow evening for the call-in show.
	And I love you guys so much.

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