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Sept. 29, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:40:59

Philosophy versus Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder

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	Alright, so I want to talk to you and I I've been facing this like really intense problem for the past I would say probably a year and a half and that problem is is that I have probably I would say it's like I I've never experienced it before but this kind of OCD I'm having it's really taking control of my life.
	I'm having a hard time Being a stable person and being able to do what I want or being able to express myself at all, you know, let's just say with OCD, you know, you begin to repeat yourself a lot, repeat actions over and over again.
	And these actions that I do, they don't go in the double digits.
	They go like in the triple digits and they go on for hours and hours.
	Repeatedly. And at one point it was almost daily.
	Okay, so just for those who don't know, OCD, of course, obsessive compulsive disorder.
	And so this is, you know, most people would be aware of kind of washing hands repeatedly, that kind of stuff, right?
	Right, yeah. And my OCD is quite strange.
	And, well, the main reason why it's very strange is Is that I haven't really been able to find a lot of people who have this kind of issue with OCD. And for me, it seems to regard things that I enjoy.
	Like, let's say, I mean, I'm really into computers.
	I'm an IT person for, you know, usual job, career choice in IT. And I really enjoy computers.
	I enjoy fixing them, building them, you know, playing video games, all that kind of stuff.
	So, let's say if I want to relax, I want to enjoy a video game, or I want to create something, or I want to fix something, my OCD would take over and it would cause this thing that I wanted to do, I would just keep Doing the same thing over and over again.
	Let's get specific rather than abstract because you've lived with the condition and other people haven't.
	So just make sure we can keep people alone.
	Absolutely. Let's go with this.
	For me, I have a hard time trying to I enjoy things in life.
	Let me just say, sorry.
	Listen, we're already interrupting the program thoughts, but go ahead.
	Oh, okay. In all baseness, I have a hard time enjoying things that I want to do or I aspire to do.
	I'm gonna throw an example here and you can get like a gist of how serious it can get.
	So, one of my issues cultivates around computers and technology.
	So, let's say I'm a...
	Oh, actually, no. I recently...
	I installed a television, right?
	And I was like, this is a new television.
	I'm gonna enjoy it.
	I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna be like, this is awesome, right?
	And instead of enjoying the television, my OCD takes over and tells me, the cable, the HDMI cable, it's not plugged in enough.
	It's not plugged in enough. And I'll go up and I'll try to plug it in tighter and tighter and tighter.
	And I'll think like, oh, what if I didn't do it right this time?
	Or what if I didn't put enough force into it?
	And I'll just keep doing it and doing it.
	And this will go on for four hours.
	And I wouldn't be able to do anything.
	All right, hang on. So you're starting to feel strongly about this, right?
	I can sort of hear it in your voice.
	Yeah. Okay, so I just want you to be aware.
	I'm aware of that, and it's fine with me.
	Listen, this is kind of crippling in a way, right?
	I mean, this is like if there's one thing you could kind of snap your fingers and get rid of, it would be something along these lines, right?
	Yeah. Right, right.
	So you feel very strongly about it, and I respect that, and I appreciate that, and I'm aware of that.
	So I just wanted to let you know about that, but sorry, go ahead.
	Oh, yeah, of course.
	And there's other things.
	Let's say if I'm trying to use...
	I'm on my computer, and I want to install a piece of software.
	I can't even tell you how many times.
	I build computers a lot...
	And that self is hard for me right now.
	You know, back in the day, I would build a computer in maybe 20 minutes.
	I was very fast at it, very accurate.
	And nowadays, I would take six to ten hours to just build one computer.
	And that's because you want to get everything just so, right?
	Yeah, like the cables, the power supply, the jet graphics card, the CPU. And sometimes I end up being so insane about it that I break these components and it's happened it's costed me like thousands of dollars and it's it's absolutely insane I I don't know and the reason why I contacted you today is because I don't know where it's coming from and I don't know why I'm feeling these ways that I do right now so right that's why I want to contact you and I have no one I mean,
	I don't really know what else to turn to at this point.
	You see, you have your OCD regarding computers.
	I have my OCD regarding background noise.
	Oh, I'm sorry. I can hear birds.
	Was that finger snapping? I mean, that was quite a lot.
	Oh, no. That was my birds.
	I will take my birds.
	No, no, no. It's fine. It's fine.
	Honestly, I just want to know what they are.
	I don't want you to do, you know, don't do anything that's negative for the birds.
	That's fine. I just wanted to know what they are.
	Okay, yep, yep, yep.
	I have birds. I have chirochetes.
	Right. Okay, well, that's nice.
	Okay, so listen, let me just put a couple of caveats in there, in here, right?
	Just because, you know, I'm obviously not a psychologist, not a psychiatrist, not a therapist.
	So I just wanted to put it out there that as far as I understand it, there's some pretty good therapies for OCD, right?
	So like the typical one is like if you're a germaphobe, right?
	Then you, you know, you touch a dirty washcloth and, and you just don't wash your hands for five minutes and then you extend it to six minutes.
	And like, it's a sort of progressive exposure stuff that can help you deal with these symptoms or, or find them less explosive.
	So I just wanted to put that out there that if you do have OCD, then it may well be worth talking to a professional, somebody who's got experience helping people deal with OCD. I just want to put that right out there because the philosophy can do some stuff, which is great, I think, but that is an important aspect.
	I don't know if you've ever looked into that kind of stuff or talked to a psychologist about that.
	Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm actually, this week, I'm actually going to be seeing a therapist about this specific issue that I'm dealing with.
	It's the first time I went to a therapist for this specific issue, which is great.
	And I also want to point out that, you know, the exposure therapy, it is something that I've strived or wanted to do.
	And I've tried to do that on my own.
	Um, quite a lot.
	And what happens is, is that the issues like, let's say, um, yeah, so, okay.
	So if I'm having an OCD problem, right?
	Um, and I don't do something and I don't do it.
	If I, if I just let go and I'm just like, nah, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna worry about it.
	I'm not gonna do anything about it.
	My mind will stop and it will just keep on going.
	It'll keep on creating.
	These different scenarios of which it could fail or it could be wrong.
	And those scenarios, those fake scenarios that my mind creates becomes the reality for me.
	And that happens a lot.
	I remember when I first looked into OCD, one of the things was your mind stops and then It just keeps on repeating.
	It just keeps on going and going and going until something goes right.
	Maybe the key fits right.
	And that's something I'm dealing with right now.
	Keeps going. So as far as I understand it, and it's your issue, so obviously correct me where I go astray, but it's something like this.
	So the did I get it wrong or could it be done better kind of sticks in your head and you can try and ignore it, but then your brain just keeps cranking up the volume until it's just like, fuck, fine.
	It's just easier to go and check it again than it is to try and manage what's going on in my brain.
	Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
	No, listen, we all have it to some degree, right?
	I put out this book, I think last year, called The Art of the Argument.
	And there was, yeah, it's a great book, theartoftheargument.com.
	People should go check it out. But in it, somebody said, some reviewers said, oh, you may have not used these technical terms regarding validity versus soundness in the correct manner in this one particular example in the book.
	And I was like, ugh! And then I was like, no, no, no, come on.
	It's called the art of the argument.
	It's not, here's a technical, formal introduction to logic, and if logicians have not managed to popularize these terms, I'm not going to sit there and explain these terms, because it's not really my job to make sure that the terms are in popular use.
	It's called the art of the argument, right?
	So, you know, but these kinds of things, or when I say that the welfare state is a eugenics program, of course I get six million people saying to me, No, no, technically it's dysgenics.
	And it's like, yeah, no, I get that.
	I get that. But people are familiar with the term eugenics.
	The term dysgenics, I don't really want to explain it.
	And, you know, dysgenics is a subset of eugenics.
	Anyway, so everybody has these little things that it's like they could be better.
	And... So we all have it to some degree or another, and there's nothing wrong with it.
	It's funny. So many, many years ago, I was at a party, and I was chatting with a guy who was an engineer.
	Now, he was an engineer at a nuclear power plant.
	And we were talking about how they make things work at the nuclear power plant, and basically he said, you know, it's a whole bunch of physical switches.
	Now, don't take anything I'm saying on Gospel.
	This is like 30 years ago, so, you know, this is just what I remember from the conversation.
	And I was like, well, why don't you guys computerize stuff, right?
	And he's like, because it's a nuclear power plant.
	And so, you know, you can't guarantee that the software is never going to fail, that there's never going to be any problems on it, but the physical stuff you can check, right?
	So it's why they have all these physical switches and gauges and all that rather than computerizing stuff.
	And so for some things, you know, what's called OCD, like you kind of You kind of want that, right?
	So it is only in the extremes that it becomes crippling, but a desire to get things right and a desire for things to be accurate and so on, you know, I'm happy that there are people who have a real attention to detail who check the fluid levels of an airplane I'm flying on, you know, like, so I just want to sort of point that out that although it's a hell of a thing to live with, and I really sympathize and I'd probably share little bits of it here or there, as most people would or do.
	It's got good sides to it as well, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've talked to a lot of people about just OCD in general.
	And I mean, a lot of people, I mean, I think almost everybody has, like, a little bit, you know, of that kind of...
	Yeah. We want the Aristotelian mean.
	Like, too much is crippling, and too little, and, you know, airplanes are falling out of the sky kind of thing.
	Yeah, exactly. So, you know, there's always that, like, balance, or even just, like, it could be good for a lot of people, but I think a lot of times, like, whenever I heard about OCD, like, growing up, I always thought of it, like, as... I mean, there's always the germ kind of side to it, which was always popularized by media and stuff like that.
	But the main thing is I heard a lot of people and even kids when I was growing up in school who had that kind of thing.
	it helped them through being a good student, getting good grades, or being talented in one way or another, just with that kind of attention to detail.
	Well, everyone's done that woodworking stuff, like measure three times, cut once, that sort of thing, right?
	And everyone's done that thing where it's like, oh no, it's half an inch too short.
	Like too long?
	Okay, you can shave it down some more.
	Half an inch too short, it's like, dope!
	Now I've got to go get a new 2x4 from the hardware store or whatever, right?
	So again, we all have to navigate this too little versus too much attention to detail.
	Right, absolutely, absolutely.
	Um, but yeah, it's...
	I just, like, I get that kind of, that feeling where I just, the OCD, it's, it feels like every day or, like, every other, you know, like, just as time progresses, how about that? It feels like my OCD is not calming down, but it, it starts, it starts to get worse.
	And... It feels like, you know, I was really bad like a month ago, right?
	But this month, oh my goodness, like it just, it keeps ramping up.
	And it's appeasement, right?
	Because every time you give into your brain, so to speak, we refer to this as a kind of possession almost, right?
	But every time you give into your brain and appease it, then your brain is like, oh, okay, so when we escalate, we get satisfaction, right?
	Right, right. So these things tend not to, in my understanding, remain particularly stable.
	They're in a kind of getting better or getting worse kind of stage.
	Yeah, yeah, exactly.
	And getting better is a hell of a thing to achieve, right?
	Right, right.
	And I mean, to be honest, when I was younger, a little bit younger, I probably, yeah, actually, it was when I was a child and I went through my teenage years, I had this other obsessive kind of component to me, and I still have it to a degree today, and a lot of it does affect me.
	However... It's not as serious as the OCD, but I can say that it probably has a connection.
	And I have, and I've dealt with body dysmorphia, like actual body dysmorphia.
	Okay, so again, for those who don't know, body dysmorphia is when you have a distorted relationship to the realities of your own physicality, is that right?
	Yes, absolutely.
	So, how did yours manifest?
	Mine manifested from, well...
	When I was a kid, I went through, there was like a divorce.
	Parents separated when I was five years old.
	And I had a father.
	And my father, at the time, he wasn't a nice man.
	And there were certain points in the relationship where He would make fun of my body as a child, compare it to his own.
	He was a child and say, I was so much better looking.
	He would come up with these names about my body and I still see it to this day.
	Now, is this your finger snapping that's going on there?
	Oh, sorry. No, that's fine.
	I just want to make sure.
	I just want to make sure that there's not like some clown with cracked knuckles behind you or something.
	No, no.
	Sorry, that was me. I do that thing where I have something in my hand and I just like play with it.
	But no, it's cool.
	I'm happy if it's staying at finger cracking, I'm happy.
	All right. Okay, cool, cool.
	But yeah, you know, I grew up and there was a lot of this...
	He wasn't really...
	He seemed to be very judgmental.
	It's abusive. You don't sit there and say, I was way better looking than you when I was a kid.
	That's not judgmental.
	That's just abusive. That's just plain mean, right?
	Absolutely. Be correct on all that.
	Yes. He would come up with these names and Names for you?
	Yes, names for me.
	I can't really say it.
	It would be too identifying.
	I don't know. There were names.
	Can you give me a hint? There was a TV character for children at the time, and he was a fat character.
	He was like round.
	Very round. That's the whole point of his character is round.
	He would make fun of my body like that.
	I just want to point out just really quickly here.
	I'm not fat.
	I'm not overweight.
	I am healthy.
	I have been a healthy BMI for my entire life.
	And I... For me now, I think a lot of it, like my perception on my body, the way that I look at it, the way that I look at my stomach or my face, I feel like a lot of that comes from the abuse that I had.
	And I can't really trust my own judgment, but I know that a lot of people that I've had relationships with, That my family, my friends, they think I'm a good-looking guy.
	And never, ever, ever have I ever felt like I was unhealthy in any way of my weight.
	Well, as being, like, statistically.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. I feel like in my own body, though, I feel like I'm unhealthy, and I feel like my weight...
	Like, my body doesn't look right.
	Like, my face. I can't get in front of a camera.
	I haven't been in front of a camera since I was a teenager.
	There probably hasn't been a picture of me since, even in photos.
	Oh, and so what happens when you sort of think about the camera stuff?
	What goes on in your mind?
	My mind goes to, I have to see it, I have to see it, I have to see what I look like.
	You know, what...
	Is my face...
	Does my face look okay?
	Does my body...
	Like, do I look fat in it?
	Like, what do I look like?
	And that goes crazy.
	Like, I've had situations where, like, I'll get a picture taken of me, and oh my god, like, my mind would just go crazy.
	But what do you see?
	You see the picture, right?
	Yeah. Like, I'll see the picture.
	Like, I don't...
	I think the way I see things is not the way that other people see things.
	It's super weird because I don't understand it.
	Let's say someone takes a picture of me.
	Someone will say, that's a really good picture.
	You look really good in that.
	I'll look at it and I'll say, holy shit, what is that?
	What happened to me? Try being over 50 and shooting yourself sometimes in 4K video.
	It's like, yeah, that's how I look.
	Which, you know, I like the way I look, but yeah, I get it.
	Yeah, I get it. I mean, for sure.
	It's like when you hear your voice back.
	Yeah. And, yeah.
	Yeah, I was wobbling along the other day to Sam Smith's song, You Know I'm Not the Only One.
	And I was like, I'll record this.
	And I play it back. I'm like, yeah, well, that's why he's got a recording contract.
	Yeah. And I do a podcast.
	It's just the way that it goes.
	It's so funny. I do the same thing because I'm really into music and I've always wanted to do vocals and stuff like that.
	And I'll be like, alright, I'm going to record myself.
	I'm going to see how I sound.
	I feel so good. I hear it back.
	I'm like... Yeah, no, I don't think I'm going to be a vocalist in this life.
	Paula Abdul, you know, it's a bit pitchy.
	It's a bit pitchy.
	Yeah, exactly. Well, I had a tooth extracted because it was like ankylose, I don't know, like last year, late last year.
	And, yeah, I mean, they went right through to my sinuses, and it kind of messed up my nerve, and it's like, yeah, so I've lost a little bit of vocal control even then, so, yeah, so it's just, so I get it.
	Like, I mean, there's this how you sound when you're singing in the shower with all that nice reflective tile, and you're like, damn, that's fine, right?
	And then, you know, you sing into your iPhone, and I'm like, uh, okay, I guess.
	I guess Apple is not very good at recording my beautiful vocal.
	Anyway, so, yeah, no, I kind of understand, so...
	But here's the thing, right?
	So this... Your dad, right?
	I mean... Yeah. Okay, what happened to this dude?
	Sorry, what happened to this dude? Well, he's not in my life anymore.
	I actually severed ties with him about...
	I probably would be like seven years ago.
	And I've been happy that he isn't in my life ever since, but...
	He wasn't a nice guy.
	He was an alcoholic.
	He was what? He was an alcoholic.
	Was he kind of drunk when he would say all this creepy shit to you about your body and your face and all that?
	No. I've only seen him drunk drunk a few times.
	He would try to stay away from the booze, like over-drinking booze when we're around.
	When we're not around, it's a different story.
	I'm sorry, dude. Could you move to a room that's not got the birds in it?
	No, no, no problem.
	I mean, I earlier said, but they seem to be really, really enthusiastic about our conversation.
	Oh, I know, I know.
	One moment. I'll take care of it, okay?
	Yeah, no problem. All right, one second.
	See, now here is everyone's my OCD kicking in because when I get the, when I'm sort of processing the recordings, if I have to block too much of it out, then it takes forever.
	And do I take out this breath?
	What if I say really quietly?
	Do I leave that in? Anyway, so you have to be, I appreciate Bob here dealing with this.
	All right, I am back.
	Thanks, man. Appreciate that. Sorry, I switched it, but it was starting to be like the cormorants of conscience are cackling in my cranium.
	All right. Oh, no, totally, totally.
	I get that. So you got your dad out of your life seven years ago.
	You said you'd only seen him drunk once or twice?
	I've seen him drunk.
	I mean, the entirety of knowing him, I mean, sometimes you don't really know, like...
	I don't know. I don't really know if he was drunk or not.
	I mean, I guess by his personality, it's really hard to say because his personality was just very rude, very judgmental, very angry.
	And even without the booze, he would still be a very angry individual.
	But you're not!
	Me? But you're not quite as much.
	So you got emotional earlier.
	You got sad when you were talking about this.
	But this is very matter-of-fact.
	I had a family member when I was younger.
	He used to call me Fatty all the time, right?
	Hey, fatty! Right?
	And I'm like, I mean, I've never been fat.
	I mean, I was a little heavy about 10 years ago, but, yeah, I mean, I've never been fat, and, you know, I'm in the middle.
	I'm good BMI now. But anyway, and I would be like, you know, what do you call me fat for?
	He's like, well, you know you're not fat, so you know it's just a joke.
	It's like, but then why do you, you know what, you can't win.
	Right? Because if you accept it, then you just keep getting called fat all the time, which is, you know, kind of unpleasant.
	And then, if you push back against it, you can't take a joke, right?
	Exactly. I really fucking hate that shit, man.
	I really, really, really hate that shit.
	It makes me aggressive.
	You know, I'm putting my wounds right out there for the world, right?
	Just so everyone knows, right?
	But it makes me feel so angry with that kind of brain-twisting...
	It's like, you know what? If you want to just have a fight, let's just punch each other in the head.
	Like, don't give me this girly, tween, mean girls, brain-twisting bullshit.
	Exactly. Exactly.
	And it's just like, why...
	In my mind, I just like, I wonder about the conversations, I mean, the arguments and the things he said.
	And I think to myself, why would he say that?
	And why does he feel that way about his own son?
	Well, no. First of all, it's got nothing to do with you.
	This is the horrible, chilling, interstellar, bone marrow freezing truth about these kinds of assholes.
	It's got nothing to do with you at all.
	Because saying it has something to do with you would be to say, well, if I was a different kid, he wouldn't have treated me that way.
	Of course he would have. Because it's his own compulsion.
	Like, anything which is not particular to you has nothing to do with you.
	Nothing to do with you.
	I mean, I'm out here on the internet, right?
	So, it's really, really essential to get this down into your bone marrow.
	It had nothing to do with you.
	Nothing to do with you.
	Because it wasn't like, I guarantee you this guy did not have happy, great, wonderful, functional relationships with other people, but just, you know, with you, something about you, like this is just this kind of jerk, this kind of manipulation, this kind of abuse, which is some of the worst kind of abuse that's out there.
	And I'll sort of tell why later in the conversation.
	But... You say, well, why would he say this about his own son?
	Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter if you were his son.
	Doesn't matter if you were his daughter.
	Doesn't matter if you were better looking or worse looking or taller or shorter or fatter or thinner or anything.
	Doesn't matter. He would find something to pick at.
	And the more perfect you were, the more weird the picking at would get.
	So there is no escaping somebody who wants to try and disassemble your personality through this kind of brain-twisting Mobius strip abuse.
	There's nothing that you could have done to evade or escape it.
	You probably did everything in your conceivable power to minimize it, but it had absolutely nothing to do with you.
	You were simply, unfortunately, the kid he had power over who couldn't get away.
	See, this is the thing.
	This is why kids are so dangerous for dysfunctional people.
	Because everyone else can basically tell them to fuck off, right?
	Or can just withdraw or can fire their ass if they pull this shit at work.
	Can you imagine going into his boss and saying, well, one of your ass cheeks looks particularly fat today, Jim?
	Yeah. Right? Or pulling this kind of weird dysmorphic manipulation on other people.
	Yeah. I mean, it's funny.
	I mean, not funny, but like they wouldn't do this with other people because other people would just say, you know what?
	Just get your shit and get out of my office, man.
	Like, you're fired. I don't need this weird shit in my life, right?
	I assume, I mean, did your parents divorce?
	Yes. Okay, so your mom could tell them to fuck off, right?
	But you're the kid, right?
	So all of his dysfunctional weirdness gets focused.
	On you. Because you're the one person who can't tell them to fuck off, right?
	Right. Like you see those documentaries with the birds, they go out, they got baby birds in the nest and they go out and they eat a bunch of horrible stuff and then they kind of half masticate it in their mouth and then they kind of cough it up into the birds' beaks, the baby birds' beaks.
	Well, that's dysfunction with dysfunctional people.
	It's like half-chewed gristle of unanalyzed childhood bullshit that And they just force feed it down your fucking throat.
	That's a good point.
	It's got nothing to do with you.
	It's got nothing to do with you.
	I'm going to be honest.
	I've went through years of therapy and through my life with other people and simply about the problems that I've faced with Depression.
	The divorce when I was a kid, I went to a therapist about it for years.
	And I never heard that.
	Can I give you a truly shitty analogy?
	Sure. Okay.
	Alright. This is revealing probably more than anybody ever wants to know, but this will get the message across real clear.
	Alright? Yeah.
	So many, many years ago, I don't know, this is Certainly more than 20, probably closer to 25 years ago.
	I'm in America and I got this big-ass business meeting that I got to get to and, you know, this is the time of the entrepreneurial phase of the business where, you know, if we don't make a sale, we ain't going to make payroll and, you know, my...
	My partner would say, we're going to auger in, you know, just drill in, like you can't get out, right?
	Right. Anyway, so I'm with us, and I was great at explaining the technology and so on and all of that, because I built the damn technology, so I was really, really good.
	And I'm good at explaining and good at negotiating.
	So I was always, like the salespeople always basically come and do their damn job for them, right?
	They couldn't program, but I could sell.
	So I'm in a car, and, you know, when you travel...
	For business, things, you know, it took me a little while to get used to it.
	So I was kind of new to business travel.
	So, you know, you kind of eat maybe the wrong stuff a bit too much.
	You don't sleep that well.
	Whatever it is, right? Like it's just a time zone, a little time.
	I think it was the West Coast or something, right?
	So time zone changes and all that.
	So your body just gets kind of thrown off, right?
	So I'm in this car and I'm like, oh my God, have I ever got a slip of deuce, man?
	I got to get to a washroom.
	Right? Like, this is not good.
	Like, you know where it's just like, oh, you know, it's a little long...
	But then you're like, oh, man, you know?
	I'm trying to put my hands over Old Faithful at this point, right?
	So... We get to a gas station, and of course the guy is like, oh, I've got a key back here someplace.
	I'm like, you know, I'm really going to ask you to get that key sooner rather than later, because otherwise you're going to have to close for a couple of hours and maybe bring in a priest, right?
	So finally I get the key, and you do that little dance wiggle jump, right?
	And it's like you suddenly feel like you're three years old in kindergarten or whatever, trying to get to the washroom before you...
	Leave some breadcrumbs behind you, so to speak, right?
	So you get in and whatever, right?
	So it's like, oh man, beautiful thing, right?
	Now here's the thing. Suppose I hadn't made it, right?
	And I basically would have crapped my pants, right?
	Which, you know, is not ideal when you're on your way to a very important business meeting.
	Like, I'm going to ask you to open the windows while I do my presentation, right?
	So it was all fine, but let's say I hadn't made it, right?
	Now, would my pants say I take that personally?
	No. It's the same thing with you, man.
	Your dad, through lack of self-knowledge, lack of self-discipline, lack of desire to fight being a complete asshole to his child, kind of crapped all over you, right?
	Right. But my parents would be like, you know, I can't believe he waited until I was on his butt.
	I can't believe that, you know, he didn't plan.
	He must really hate me.
	I'm like, no, man, I'm...
	Sorry, biological function.
	You know, you could say it wasn't planned that well, although I didn't feel bad when I got into the car.
	Maybe I had eaten something that disagreed with me.
	But my pants could take it really personally, right?
	They just crapped on us.
	Guy must hate us. It's like, no, that's not how it was.
	It's nothing to do with the pants.
	They're just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
	You see what I mean? Right.
	And same thing with you. You were born to this guy.
	He didn't restrain or have self-knowledge or whatever, right?
	Right. But it's not personal.
	You just did the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person.
	He didn't find you.
	It wasn't like he didn't seek you out.
	Right. He was, you know, he stuck with me.
	It's not a personal failing of yours that this was your dad.
	Right. I remember a friend of an ex-girlfriend once, an Indian girl, so you can bring in all the cliches about mysticism and so on.
	But she was trying to convince me, it's like, you know, you do choose your parents.
	And I'm like, it's a good thing you're a girl.
	Telling me that I would choose the parents that I had.
	Are you crazy? Like, not only are you crazy, like, it's like, but the universe is trying to teach you something by putting you in proximity.
	It's like, so the universe then thrives on child abuse.
	That's what you're saying. And then, of course, you know, when you point out these ridiculous arguments, people are like, no, no, you're not getting it.
	It's like, no, I am getting it.
	You just don't like what I'm getting.
	Exactly. I'm not genuflecting before this reincarnation you choose your parents bullshit because it's incredibly insulting, right?
	That I would do that. But it's not a flaw in yours, right?
	You know, like if you're leaning at the zoo, right?
	And the fence gives way and you fall into the tiger pit.
	Well, that's not a personal failing of yours.
	You can get drunk and fall in like the railing gave way.
	That's not supposed to happen. You're supposed to be able to lean on a railing in a zoo.
	It breaks, right? Oh man, my bad.
	No, not your bad. You're just stuck with this asshole who's trying to squish up your brain like silly putty.
	It sucks. You've got to try and survive it.
	You can't get away. It's not your fault.
	It's not personal. It's nothing to do with you.
	Right. You're absolutely right.
	But you wanted to control this brain invasion.
	You know, I'd rather get beaten than have someone try to get in my head that way.
	Yeah, I get you.
	Because get beaten, you're like, well, that hurts.
	But it's my body.
	It's going to heal. And I can clearly identify it as evil, right?
	Right. Right.
	But this stuff where they're trying to get in your head and pretzel you all up to kingdom come, I mean, that rewires you, right?
	Right. As opposed to, hey, I got hit in the face, or hey, my mom beat my head against the door, or, you know, hey, my mom threw a plate at me and it bounced off my head, whatever, right?
	Like, that's horrible.
	Absolutely. But it's kind of the difference between getting a long cut on your arm and having a tumor.
	Right. Both suck, but one is like, okay, that's internal, right?
	It's a little riskier in the long run.
	Do you see what I'm saying?
	One is like possession, right?
	I'm sorry to be talking so much, and I promise I'll shut up in a sec, right?
	But the concept behind possession is so powerful.
	That how does evil spread?
	Well, it doesn't spread by hitting you.
	The demon doesn't materialize and just punch you in the face, right?
	Because then you take a baseball bat and knock his horns off, right?
	The demon is like a little knock on the wall.
	It's a little, you know, friendly, a little playful, a little giggling, and then sucks in.
	It takes you over. It gets into your head.
	And then you're screwed, right?
	And this means something because...
	We imprint, like, children are soft mud and parents are like this big, big-ass dinosaur footprint, right?
	It's just the way it is. There's no way to fight it.
	You can't possibly fight it.
	It's impossible. You can't make yourself into concrete because you're impressionable, right?
	What do they say about kids when they're young?
	It's an impressionable age.
	No kidding. And if you're, you know, if your parents are going to step into the, right, Dr.
	Phil's got this cheesy way, your parents write on the slate of who you are, or whatever, I can't do his accent, but you know what I mean, right?
	They write on the slate of who you are, and it's like, yeah, yeah, but that's not really how it works, right?
	It's a dinosaur footprint into soft mud, right?
	That's just the way it is. Your parents are going to affect you that way no matter what.
	You don't choose it. You don't choose whether they're going to affect you.
	You can't choose, you can barely choose how much they affect you.
	And this kind of Breathing weird, twisted, vicious language into your head is a form of demonic possession.
	It's a form of replication, not through savagery, but through syllables.
	With savagery, you can fight.
	The bear, you can run, you can climb a tree, you can try and hit it with a log, you can whatever, right?
	But this weird shit where it gets in your head and rewires who you are?
	Well, there's only one way to push back against that, and that's why we're having the conversation.
	So I'm sorry, again, for talking so long, but I just really wanted to clarify, you've got to not take this shit personally.
	Wrong place, wrong time, man.
	Right, and you know what?
	Like, no worries about, like, I needed that.
	I really did, man.
	Good, good. Okay, I thought you might, so...
	Oh, yeah...
	I just want you to know that I'm aware I'm talking for a long time.
	Oh, no, no. So, I just want to add that I... It wasn't all bad.
	Oh, boy. Wait, wait, wait.
	No, it's not my father.
	Don't worry about it. My father, all bad.
	But growing up, the one thing that kept me going and kept me happy and What really assisted me with a lot of things growing up was my mother.
	She helped me with everything, down from emotional support, financial support, being there no matter what.
	She wants for me to be the best I possibly can be.
	She's done a lot.
	She's worked So much through her life, because she's just a very dedicated woman, and I look up to that.
	I'm happy that I have that in my life.
	Okay, hang on, hang on. And I'm sorry to interrupt you, right?
	So listen, that's a fantastic infomercial for your mom.
	This is like late night stuff that stops...
	stuff that seals up cracks.
	But... You know what I'm going to mention here, right?
	Yeah. What's that? That if that was true, then why did she allow him to see me or for this to go on, right?
	No. I mean, that's certainly part of it, but that's managing things after the fact, right?
	Why would she marry a guy like this and give him children?
	I mean, look, I'm happy you're in the world, right?
	So we're just talking, you know, but why...
	Why would she marry someone like this and give them children at all?
	If she's so great, right?
	Well, I mean, that's a good point, and I think, in all honesty, it's like, I ask myself that a lot, because, like, I'm super unaware as to, like, why this would be the outcome.
	Aha! Okay, so, that's important, right?
	Yeah. So, I assume that you've talked to your mom about what your dad did to you when you were little.
	Yes. Okay. So, her job, job one, for a good parent, is to leave you with no question unanswered about what the hell happened.
	So, you've got no wondering, no questions.
	You know, top to bottom, back to front, A to Z, soup to nuts, what happened and why.
	That's her job. So when you talk to your mom about what happened with your dad, all of the brain-twisted ways that he tried to rewire your brain, what does she say?
	Well, first, she doesn't really want...
	When I talk about my past and...
	The problems I've faced, she tries to explain that she doesn't really want to talk about it.
	Okay, so that's selfish.
	You know, she chose your dad.
	She puts you in your dad's path, both biologically and socially.
	So the fact that she doesn't want to talk about it is not an excuse at all.
	Right. I mean, the reason...
	Um, that's brought up is because I, I have siblings and, um, they still, I mean, they're old enough, um, to make their own decisions, um, on who they want to be with and who they want to see and they choose to see, um, him, um, even though that it's blaringly obvious that, uh, they were not treated that well either.
	Um, but because of that, you know, doesn't want, um, doesn't want She doesn't want arguments happening or anything like that based around that.
	I sort of understood that for a while.
	She doesn't want arguments happening?
	I don't know what that means. Oh, no, no.
	She doesn't want to talk about the father at all.
	If it's bad, don't talk about it.
	You know, it's something that happened in the past.
	You're going to have to... Wait, wait, wait.
	How long was she married to the guy for?
	Let's see. Just roughly.
	Yeah, probably five years.
	Five years. So, wait.
	So, when she had problems with him, why didn't she stay married to him and just say, well, those problems are all in the past.
	They were yesterday, or last week, or the day before, or last year.
	So, if you should not bring up uncomfortable topics because all the issues in the past, why did she bring up the uncomfortable topic called, I want to divorce you, when all of her issues with him were also in the past?
	You understand? That's a good question.
	Why does she get to bring up uncomfortable things and not just relegate things to the past, but when she might be in the firing line for uncomfortable questions, suddenly it's like, well, now we can't bring up uncomfortable things because it's all in the past, you see.
	No, no, no. If that was her philosophy, she never would have divorced your dad.
	But she did, so she can't claim that as her philosophy.
	I mean, she can, it's just bullshit.
	I mean, I get why she would divorce him, because, I mean, he was really a nasty guy.
	Yeah, but all of his nastiness was in the past for her.
	Right. I just, you know, the one thing I never got answered, and the one thing...
	That is on my mind when talking about this kind of stuff is how was he or who was he before the marriage?
	And even before I was born, like what was the aspects to him?
	That made him a desirable human being.
	And the reason you need that answer is not just for maybe you had this relationship to the OCD, but of course, parents who don't tell you their mistakes virtually guarantee that you're going to repeat them.
	That's what's so selfish about not telling people your mistakes.
	Oh my God, I just forgot about something.
	Yeah, yeah, go. Okay.
	So... So, you know, I was talking about how my dad would, you know, he would go at my body image a lot, and he would compare himself when he was a kid.
	Well, I remember talking to him about this personally, because when I was, I think I was like a teenager, I confronted him about this specific issue.
	Being like, this is, you know, this is something that is uncomfortable for me, for you to talk about me.
	I'm having problems.
	You know, I can't look at myself in the mirror anymore.
	Yeah, you showed your soft underbelly to a sadist.
	Yeah, how did that work out? Yeah, right.
	And he said, he said, when I was a kid, when I was a kid, I had the same thing.
	I didn't like the way I looked.
	And I was like, hold, hold, hold on.
	Hold on. So he was like in a similar...
	He was in a similar basket.
	Now, I don't know why he had these issues.
	I don't know who gave him these issues.
	Sure you did. Well, who?
	Well, his father. I don't...
	Maybe. Possibly.
	I mean, that would probably be a good connection.
	Well, let me ask you this. Do you have...
	Your siblings, are they male or female?
	Female. All right. So, look at that.
	The father picked on the boy.
	Which means that his father picked on him.
	I mean, there are deep and dark psychological mysteries in this world.
	This is not one of them. Did he pick on your sisters the same way?
	No. Right. Right.
	So, yeah, it's a male-to-male contagion.
	God... Right.
	And it also proves to you that it has nothing to do with you.
	Because he was saying, well listen, when I was a kid I was way better looking than you, right?
	But then it turns out that he hated the way he looked when he was a kid.
	So it was all a lie, right? Right.
	How old were you when your parents divorced?
	I was five. Right.
	And did you see your father much after that?
	Yes, quite a lot.
	And was that because he wanted shared custody?
	Yeah. Yeah, like, you know, I've probably seen him every week or two weeks.
	And I'd like, you know, stay over his place for, you know, the weekend kind of thing, you know, weekend dad kind of thing.
	And how old were you when this, the bulk of this was going on?
	Do you mean by like, do you mean by which?
	The brain twisty stuff.
	The brain twisty stuff, yeah.
	It was definitely when I was a kid.
	I can't really concrete a year, but I know that it was probably like eight or ten.
	Okay. Around that age, yeah.
	Now, did you ever talk to anyone about this at the time?
	You said you were in therapy, but I assumed that was later.
	but did you ever say to your mom listen dad keep saying this weird stuff about me um mine so for a while I would say for quite a few years until I got into my teenage years that's when I really went off about it and I really told my mom about it especially when I stopped seeing him um but How old were you when you stopped seeing him?
	I think I was like 16, 17 years old.
	Okay, but that's, you know, eight, nine years since it started.
	And it probably started before eight, but maybe it escalated at that time.
	Oh, yeah, yeah. Because I remember being in elementary school and looking at myself and just...
	Yeah.
	So, actually, where were we?
	We were at a...
	Sorry, we were just talking about...
	I was asking sort of when the peak years were.
	You said it sort of started around 8, and then you were talking about how you got mad about it when you got sort of 15, 16, 17.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	And yeah, it was around that age when I started going through puberty and everything.
	Hang on, no, not 16.
	That's too late, isn't it? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	That would probably be a few years later.
	I'm just saying in that sweet spot of time when I became a teenager, 13, 14, that's when I started like actually talking about it.
	So why didn't your mother notice that you weren't, I mean, I assume that this meant it was kind of hard to enjoy your time with your dad, right?
	Right. Did your mother ever say to you, you don't seem to be very happy to be seeing your father, what's going on?
	Yes. Okay, and so she did say this, and was this when you were sort of eight or so or later?
	Yes, it was around when I was around, I think I was like 11 or like 10, around that age.
	So it had already been going on for a couple of years before your mom picked up on it?
	Yeah, I think she got a gist of it.
	She knew that he was drinking, and she knew that I wasn't very happy when I came back after the weekends.
	So she knew that he was drinking on the weekends when he had you guys?
	Yes. So why would she send him?
	Why would she send you to him if he's drinking?
	That's not safe. I'm not sure.
	I mean, I... I've never been able to get an answer on that.
	And here's the thing.
	Listen, I mean, you know, I'm a dad, right?
	And I've been a stay-at-home dad for over 10 years now.
	And there's nothing my daughter can fundamentally hide from me because we know each other.
	I know I can't hide things from her either, right?
	But there's very little we can hide from each other because we know each other so well, right?
	Now, my question is, your mom, who you've sung the praises of, and I'm not disagreeing with you that there's great things to your mom, but She must have noticed that you weren't happy before 10 or 11 or 12.
	Yes, that's absolutely true.
	Would she try to find out hard?
	When did she know that your dad was doing this weird body shaming stuff with you?
	She found out more about that when I would say probably in my teenage years.
	I think it was around when I was...
	Oh, 15. So for seven years, you're being body shamed in weird, creepy ways by your dad.
	And your mom, what, she says she had no idea?
	Had no idea about that, no.
	Okay, so why does she have...
	It's her job to know, right? You understand?
	It's her job to know.
	It's number one job for the parents to know what the hell is going on with the emotions of their kids, right?
	Especially when she's sending you over to a drunk.
	Absolutely.
	So, why didn't she know?
	I think, well, the reason why it would be that, I mean, first, there should have been way more looking into this kind of stuff and being persistent, especially seeing how, you know, when I came there should have been way more looking into this kind of stuff and being persistent, especially seeing how, you You won't be like, yay, I'm going to dance this weekend, right?
	Exactly. I don't even remember being like that.
	Unless it was like, you know, I don't know, like if I was going to see a movie or something, I don't know.
	But, you know, it's...
	There was never that kind of joy.
	I don't remember that kind of joy.
	But yes, there was that.
	Because she could have fixed it, probably, right?
	So if she'd found out about this stuff, right?
	And again, it's her job to know.
	It's her job. It's like a detective, right?
	If you report a crime to the police and they assign a detective, it's his job to know.
	That's what he's being paid for.
	That's his job, right? And so it's parents, in this case your mom's, because your dad was too fucked up to solve it himself, but it's your mom's job to figure out what's making you unhappy or what bad things are happening, right?
	Especially when you're sending over your kids to a guy you couldn't stand to live with who's also an alcoholic.
	It's your job to find out what's going on to make sure your kids aren't being damaged in any way.
	Because if she'd found out about it, like if you'd have said, well, dad keeps saying that I'm misshapen, that I'm weird looking, that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and it's really bothering me, right?
	You could have told her that at 8 or 9 or 10, right?
	Then she calls up your dad, she goes over to your dad and says, you know what, you're not going to talk about with our son anymore?
	Any of this weird shit you've been doing?
	And I've given him clear instructions to pick up the phone and call me the moment you start doing this.
	So, this is not going to happen.
	You are not doing this to our son.
	This is incredibly destructive.
	It's incredibly unhealthy.
	And if you are doing this to our son, he's not coming over, and neither are the other kids.
	And you want to take me to court, take me to fucking court.
	But this is not going to happen.
	Right. Yes.
	So, she didn't do that because she claims she just didn't know.
	Right. And let me just add in that there are situations that have happened in that span of time that she has noticed things and she would call up and we wouldn't be over there for a few weeks or there would be massive arguments and I'd hear the phone calls and I'd hear what's going on.
	And when something was very apparent, when something Happens, you know, like, let's say, uh, I mean, you know, the body stuff came in later, but like, if, if, if I ever caught my dad, like, uh, you know, after, after this, I can't remember what year it started.
	It's on and off, you know, go like, I'll stop drinking.
	I'll stop doing this stuff.
	And I see him drinking then.
	Oh, you know, I, I'll tell my mom about it.
	I'll be like, he's drinking again.
	And, um, You know, there will be that call after a while because at one point, at one point, it became such a problem with the drinking that my mom was able to separate it from us, all the siblings, including me. And we didn't see them.
	And that was for a while.
	I would say that was probably for...
	I mean, there were like points where it would be like maybe a few weeks here and there, but then...
	After it became like almost a year or so.
	And how old were you then? I was, let's see here, 12 to 13 years old.
	And so you didn't basically, the kids didn't go over a year.
	Yeah. But your mom still didn't know that he was freaking you out with all this dysmorphia talk, right?
	Right. Right.
	And that was like, I mean, out of all the things, because I would be, I mean, other than that, because like, I think What I think happened is that when I started thinking the body stuff, right, I thought...
	When you said you started thinking the body stuff, what do you think?
	Like, you know, after I was...
	When I was a kid and I was told this stuff about my body from him, I didn't understand the ramifications that it would have on me through my developing life.
	It's weird and creepy, but you're like, okay, this is going to come and go, right?
	Right. And I thought, oh, this will come and go, and I'll become better, and I'll get older, and I'll grow the muscles, and I'll become a man, and I don't have to worry about that.
	You mean like being stornier or whatever it was he was complaining about?
	Yeah, I mean, he was going on about how I was fat, but that was absolutely not the case.
	But, you know, just, like, certain aspects about my body that I still look about today.
	I mean, I still have that, like, problem.
	And I check myself repeatedly throughout the day with these kind of things.
	But it is something that I absolutely live with to this day.
	And I wish...
	There's a lot of things I wish, but I wish...
	At that age, that A, it was noticed.
	And B, that... Sorry, you wish A what?
	A, that it was noticed.
	That it was noticed that this was happening to me and that something could have been done about it.
	And B, that I just...
	I wish that I knew how much this would have affected me.
	Because there was a point in my life where I could have...
	I didn't have to see him anymore.
	And I was just young.
	Really young. And I made the wrong decision.
	And I kept seeing him.
	Why do you think you kept seeing him?
	I mean, who knows if it was the wrong decision?
	Let's parse that out, right?
	Yeah, no, because I was scared.
	I was scared of him. I was scared that he would...
	I was just scared what he would say.
	Well, no, no, but hang on, hang on, hang on.
	I'm not convinced. The reason being, of course, if you decide not to see him, I assume that would be like a no-contact thing, right?
	So he could filibuster and all that, but you're well out of earshot, right?
	Right, but I was still, I was still like a kid.
	I didn't really, like, as a kid, I didn't really, like, when I thought about, like, not seeing him, like, I saw him angry and, like, The deepest parts of his anger.
	Never physical, but, you know, the way he got angry, I got scared of.
	But was that put forward as an option that you could just not see him?
	Yes. And your mom gave you that option.
	She said, listen, you don't have to go over and see him, right?
	Right. Now, did she then explain to you the ramifications of what might happen or how she was going to protect you or anything like that, or she'd just give you the choice without any context?
	No, no. I mean, we had to talk about the way that I was feeling and the way, like, some of the things that he was doing.
	Sorry, how old? Let's see.
	So, that was... So yeah, that was the talk I was talking about.
	That was around 10 years old, 11 years old.
	That was the talk we had.
	And was it a talk just for you or for your sisters as well?
	For me, just me.
	Why just you? Because I was the one who was having a problem.
	My siblings were not.
	The way that I was being treated was not the same way that they were being treated.
	Right. But... But there were certain cracks to that because I've seen it myself and I've seen the kind of way that he treats people.
	Your entire family is suffering because they're betraying you regarding your dad.
	That's a whole other topic, and maybe we can touch on that later, but I just bookmark it here.
	You're my brother, and I find out that someone has really mistreated you?
	Fuck them. The OCD has something to do with no one's watching your back.
	No one's on your side.
	So you've got to triple check everything because, you know, like you can't sleep if nobody's standing watch at night in the woods, right?
	You can't sleep. You can't rest.
	You can't let your guard down because nobody's watching.
	Nobody's keeping you safe.
	Nobody's keeping you safe.
	If somebody else is going to double-check your work, you can relax a little bit, right?
	Right. And your father did a hell of a job on you And if I'm in your family, my loyalty is like, no, I'm not seeing this guy.
	Why?
	Because he hurt my brother.
	You understand?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	That's what they owe you.
	And you know what's weird?
	I'll add, because it's the same kind of thing.
	With the OCD problem that I currently face, I get a lot of help from my mom and my siblings.
	When they're around, the only way, and this is one of the only fixes that I've found to completely take away this OCD problem or just like this keep repeating, I would sit down and I would Have them sit with me.
	And I would explain the things that I'm doing, and I would have them watch me.
	And have them watch me and make sure that, well, for me to feel like I'm not doing something wrong, my mind can't come up with anything, because the proof is right there.
	They're seeing me. They're watching over me.
	And they're making sure...
	Yeah, yeah. Okay, so this is the guarding while you sleep kind of thing.
	Yeah, that does make sense, yeah.
	That's why I wanted to bring it up, because it does sound a lot like that, and at the same time, I mean, that is something that's like, honestly, that's probably one of the best.
	No, but you see, no, hang on.
	So, okay, I appreciate that, but look, when your family, when your siblings, when your sisters go and see your dad, they're saying, well, he's not that bad a guy, right, which means that you just have a problem.
	Right. It's a betrayal.
	Now, what they could do is they could say, they could sit down with your dad, and maybe with you there too, maybe you're not seeing him, whatever, either sit down with your dad and say, listen, you really did a number on our brother, and you better, you better, you gotta go apologize, or we're not gonna have anything to do with you.
	Like, you better apologize, you better make it right with him, you better do whatever he needs, and say the same thing to your mom, right?
	You know, like, I mean, if you're not giving Bob here the truth, our brother here the truth about what's going on, what went on with the family, he needs to know it, right?
	I mean, he's struggling, right?
	And part of the reason why you're struggling is you are what some people would call the identified patient.
	In other words, you're the one who holds all the family dysfunction and everyone else dumps all the family dysfunction on you so they can feel better.
	But the problem is it screws up their conscience because it's unfair.
	It's unjust. So you're holding the burden to the whole family, right?
	And I know that because your mom was like, oh, listen, the past be the past.
	And your mom was like, I don't want to talk about it.
	And that puts the burden on you. And your sisters are like, yeah, we'll go and see dad, right?
	He's fine. He's not that bad, which, again, puts all the burden on you.
	It must be your problem.
	Right.
	You know, like, I mean, if I say this lettuce is really bad and everyone else eats it and they're fine, then it can't be that the lettuce is really bad.
	It's got to be, maybe I've got an allergy, but you understand?
	It's internal to me then.
	It's not a problem with the lettuce, objectively.
	So your sisters go see your dad, it means that you're the fucked up one.
	Because if he was screwed up enough that he produced this in you, then an honorable, decent person wouldn't want to hang with him until he made it right.
	But if they're all going over like, yeah, it's fine.
	He's a good guy. Yeah, he's got some problems, but, you know, then this shovels all the shit onto your plate.
	Right. And I feel like sometimes, actually a lot, really, I feel like whenever I get, like, angry about my father, it's like everyone, like, You know, they'll look at me and they'll say, just get over it.
	It's the past.
	It's something that you don't have to deal with right now.
	You don't have to see them.
	And even if you did see them, you know, the past is the past.
	The past is the past. And that's something I've heard so many times.
	Right. Okay, so that's fine.
	So if the past is the past, then people shouldn't have any trouble talking about it.
	But if they're saying there's nothing in the basement that's dangerous, but we're sealing the shit out of it anyway, then both things can't be true, right?
	Exactly. Yeah, absolutely.
	And how's your mom's relationship with your dad?
	I've never seen them talk since I... Since I, like...
	Since I left.
	The whole... So, like, seven years ago?
	Yeah, yeah. So, why doesn't your mom...
	I mean, your sisters are still seeing the guy, right?
	She shared a lot of her life with him.
	So, why doesn't she talk to him?
	Because the past is the past.
	You know, that's a good point.
	I think that, like...
	Honestly, I wonder about what...
	Because, like... At first, the first few years, I would say, that I left the situation.
	I would be told that, you know, he misses me and he's depressed and he's sad and he's this and he's that.
	And I would be like, well, Fuck him.
	I don't fucking feel good.
	I mean, he can feel as bad as he wants.
	I mean, he was an awful person.
	Wait, sorry to interrupt. I apologize for this.
	But I'm a little confused here because they're telling you that he's sad you don't see him?
	Yeah. But you not seeing him is in the past.
	Why don't they just tell them to get over it?
	It's in the past. That's a good point.
	That's a good point. What are they like, New York Times reporters here?
	Anyway, sorry. Reference to the show that went out today.
	But anyway, go on. Yeah, I saw that.
	I saw that. But yeah, no, yeah.
	It's like shush.
	Don't speak about it.
	Just let it be.
	We'll live on our merry lives just acting like it's...
	So why did they think...
	You have this OCD. Like, if the past is the past and everybody should just be able to move on and move on, like, what is their theory as to why you have this affliction?
	Here's the crazy thing.
	They have no theory as to why they don't understand and they're deeply concerned.
	But if you, I mean, I assume that you want to find out about your history, which we all do, right?
	Self-knowledge unfortunately relies upon the testimony of those who were around before we could remember or before we even existed.
	Like, why the hell, Mom, did you marry this lunatic, right?
	This abusive guy, this alcoholic, this manipulator, this brain-shredding sociopath who fucked up your son's relationship to his body, at least for a time, right?
	So you need answers to this shit, right?
	Because it's kind of like, why...
	We all need an origin story, right?
	Think of primitive tribes.
	Where did the world come from?
	Everybody thinks that, right?
	And you can either go with science or you can go with mysticism, right?
	Now, you need to know where you came from.
	So do I. There's self-knowledge.
	Self-knowledge is not just introspection.
	It's also finding out why the hell you exist to begin with.
	You know, like, why did my mom marry my dad?
	Why did they choose to have me, right?
	And I need to, because we all need to have an explanation as to why we're here, and if we don't have the facts, then we just make up shit.
	And then, unfortunately, when we make up shit, it tends to be at our own expense.
	But, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, and I just, like, I mean, this sort of just comes...
	It came to thought here, and I just want to sort of air it out.
	Like, I was just wondering, like, if I want to find out more about this, right?
	I want to understand the history.
	I want to understand where this came from, why this happened, why I was treated this way, and why the things happened the way they did.
	Would it be like a smart or just a move to To confront...
	Like, if I... Somehow I've got the balls to do it, which I think I do.
	Wait, you're not talking about your dad, are you?
	I'm saying, like, if I ever...
	No, are you talking about your dad?
	Yeah, yeah, like confronting him.
	Don't do it. Don't do it, okay. No, because you're not going to get the truth.
	Not going to get the truth. No, he's a manipulator, right?
	Has he gone through some massive...
	Did he find Jesus? No.
	Did he go through some massive thing where he's figured out his shit and gone to therapy and...
	No. No. No, not at all.
	You know, this time the bear will be friendly.
	Like, come on. You're not going to get the truth.
	Right. And whatever you get is going to make you more messed up.
	Because that's what he does. The best predictor of future behavior is relevant past behavior.
	Guaranteed. He's just going to mess you up more.
	And in fact, it's going to be even worse now because he's felt humiliated by you not seeing him.
	And so he's going to really do a fucking number on you, guaranteed.
	I agree. I absolutely agree with that.
	Now, let's go back to the lovely ladies in your life, right?
	Sure. So, can you imagine, you have a child, right?
	You have a child and your child hasn't eaten all day.
	And your child says, I'm hungry, right?
	And you say, no, you're not.
	Would that be weird? You're directly telling someone that they're not experiencing what they are in fact experiencing.
	It would be, right? And it would be an insane thing to say, right?
	It's this weird lack of self-reflection.
	It shows up in YouTube comments all the time.
	So people say to me, you know, when you laugh like that, you come across as desperate and hysterical, right?
	Like this is some objective fact.
	And I say this in the comments sometimes if I notice it.
	Well, maybe to you.
	Because people think that their own subjective experiences are somehow a universal phenomenon.
	Like if I'm hungry, everyone must be hungry, right?
	And people do it the other way too. They deny people's subjective experience like they're not actually having it.
	Somebody says, I feel sad.
	What are you going to say? No, you don't?
	I mean, that would be weird, right?
	So you're saying to your mother and you're saying to your sisters, I need to find out more about my youth and my origin story.
	I need to find out where I came from and why, right?
	And do you know what they're saying to you?
	No, you don't. We don't know what's wrong with you.
	We don't know why you're suffering from this condition.
	You are saying you need to find out more about your history, and we're saying, no, you don't.
	Mama, I'm hungry. No, you're not.
	Mama, I want to find out about my history.
	No, you don't. We don't know what the solution is, they say, but we absolutely know it has nothing to do with your history.
	That's insane. I'm not calling them crazy.
	I'm just in that particular perspective, right?
	When you see it that clearly.
	Right. No, you're...
	I mean, this is...
	And I've had many...
	I have many arguments, and I've tried to get...
	I have...
	I've talked about, like, trying to figure out, like, why...
	Why...
	You know, like...
	Why did you marry him?
	I've asked that out. I know I've asked that.
	It's a valid fucking question.
	Yeah. And your mom does not have the right to not answer that question because she chose him as your father.
	Exactly. She does not have the right to avoid that question.
	Now, she can, of course. You're going to throw her in jail or anything like that.
	But it simply means that she cares more for her own comfort than your well-being.
	That's the fact, man.
	That's the fact. If your parents refuse you essential information that you need to know, it means that they prefer...
	Their own immediate comfort to your long-term well-being.
	That's an empirical fact.
	Absolutely. And that's the coldness that you're surrounded by, man.
	And that's why your mother married your fucking dad.
	Because in this way, they're the same.
	Your dad wouldn't deal with the shit he inflicted upon you.
	Which gave him short-term relief at the expense of your long-term peace of mind, right?
	And your mom won't tell you about where you came from because that gives her immediate relief and causes you harm in the long run.
	Same thing. It's the same fucking principle.
	That's where you came from, man.
	Two peas in a pod.
	Two sides of the same coin.
	Except your dad, that shit is in the past, but your mom's is not.
	Now, you can't force people to tell you stuff, right?
	I'm quite positive that there is a story locked in my mom's head that would give me some real peace of mind about my history.
	What happened to her during the war, or perhaps afterwards, and particularly when the Russian tank commanders kept sweeping through the village, The Russians were not particularly nice.
	No. Particularly to the girls, on average.
	Right, so I'm quite convinced that there's a story in there, and if I knew that story, and if I believed that story, because, you know, knowing it and believing it may not be the same thing, but if I knew it and believed it, I'd be there and go like, okay, well, that explains a lot about what the hell happened in my childhood, right?
	It takes the burden off me.
	Hmm. That's smooth.
	Right, but I'm never going to get that information.
	But I still can.
	How do you know?
	They've said no to you for like a decade, right?
	Right. So they've said no.
	Now, you can sit down and say, no, no, listen, I really need to, need to, need to, need to, right?
	And they're like, oh, why? Just move on, move on.
	It's like, look, clearly I'm not moving on.
	And look, maybe your OCD is there to help your fucking family.
	Maybe it's there so that you don't give up trying to find the facts.
	Right. Maybe it's your detective, your Hercule Poirot, who can't sleep until...
	Got the facts, right?
	Right. So maybe the whole point is you can't flush all this shit down the past because that means it's going to reproduce in the future.
	Maybe you're there to say, no, we're breaking this cycle, people.
	We're breaking this cycle of pretending the past is in the past and then reproducing it in the present.
	Your mother knows your father did not serve your emotional needs.
	So what is she doing?
	When you ask her where you came from, she's refusing to serve your emotional needs.
	Like, I don't give a shit if it's uncomfortable to her.
	She made that choice when she was older than you and decided to marry your dad.
	Like, I'm sorry it's uncomfortable if I ask you, Mom, why you married my father.
	But I have a right to know.
	In fact, I need to know. Because if it's all supposed to be in the past, it always shows up in the future.
	Everything you flush comes out the taps.
	So maybe the OCD is just you digging your heels in and saying, uh-uh, uh-uh.
	Let's get some facts here.
	Let's get some knowledge. Let's get some wisdom.
	Let's get some truth. Now, they may, you know, you make that case strongly enough, they may, uh...
	They may give it to you or they may lie or they may refuse to talk at which point you may have to and I've had to do this with a fairly large number of things in my life what you may have to do is you may have to go through the grieving process of saying well I'm never getting the truth and then you need to come up with an origin story that is powerful enough and accords with your own instincts enough that you can put it behind you Right,
	and you know, I want to add that one of the things that I've strived for in life, ever since I left my father, I've tried to pave my own way, and every time,
	all the aspects of my father, everything, down to his personality, down to where he was in life at certain points, to interests, I would try to be my own person,
	and every time that I feel like I expressed something like my father, or I felt like this is something that my father would do, or this is something my father would say, I'd always be like, I'm not going to do that.
	I haven't drank ever in my life, and I'll continue to do that probably until the day I die.
	You're taking me on a tour that's outside the context of what we're talking about, and there's a reason for that, right?
	Oh, is it outside?
	I'm sorry. No, because we're talking about the problems, and now you're talking about all the great solutions you have, which are great, but there's no point going to the doctor and saying, well, here is where it doesn't hurt.
	Right, right. What I'm saying is that I have always strived to not be like him, and that's something like...
	I don't know why. I was just trying to compare, just saying, like, the biggest fear I have is being him.
	And the biggest fear is to have any semblance of what he did to me in the future.
	So I don't want... What would it be like for you if you had people in your life who were loyal to you first and foremost?
	There's a great scene at the beginning of a movie that is actually surprisingly deep, which is probably why it's so popular, The Godfather, right?
	Yeah. Yeah. Well, Don Corleone says to the guy, the guy says, you know, these people raped my daughter, I want you to kill them, right?
	And Don Corleone says, you know, if you'd been my friend, if you'd invited me over for coffee, then your enemies would have become my enemies.
	Your enemies would have become my enemies.
	Now, that is not what is happening in your family.
	You have an enemy...
	At this time in your development, if I understand it correctly, you have an enemy called your father.
	Yeah. But you don't have any allies in this battle.
	In fact, you have betrayers.
	Most women will take the easy path.
	Most women will avoid conflict, and what that means is they will ally themselves with the most powerful or dangerous person And they will end up betraying the person with the least power.
	As they perceive it, right?
	Right. It's easier for them because you can cause them much less difficulty.
	You can cause your sisters much less difficulty or discomfort than your dad can.
	You think you're scared of your dad?
	Think of how scared of your dad your sisters are because they're willing to betray you to appease him.
	Which means that they perceive that he has more power.
	Now... A lot of men will do this too.
	I mean, he's talking about this because you happen to have sisters, right?
	Right. So, it's not that even...
	There's no particular internalized ethics here because they're not sitting there saying, well, this guy really did a number on my brother, right?
	To the point where he's still got this body dysmorphia.
	He might have contributed to the OCD or whatever, right?
	He was really mean and cruel and weird and twisted to my brother.
	So, my brother's enemies have become my enemies.
	Who has harmed my brother cannot be my friend.
	I will not ally myself with a child abuser.
	For my own integrity, for my own morality, and also because it pains the shit out of my brother when I do that.
	And rightly so, it should, right?
	Yeah. So you need in your life somebody who's on your fucking side.
	And you're not getting it from your sisters and you're not getting it from your mom.
	In fact, the betrayals continue.
	Your enemies should be their enemies.
	They should not break bread with someone who fucked up your childhood.
	You understand? Yes.
	Which means that you need people who are loyal to you and your life, and this particular estrogen triple witch circle might be interfering with that.
	Absolutely. And, you know, for quite a few years, I mean, the whole thing, like, You know, me not seeing my dad, but like, you know, my siblings would.
	That would, oh my goodness, the rift that was casted because of that, between the relationships that we had and relationships that began to crumble because of that.
	You mean outside your family or?
	No, no, like with my siblings, I had a really tight relationship.
	It was very good. And what happened is that directly after I left him, there was a day, and I remember this day, where I thought that my siblings left too.
	Left him or you?
	Left him. And that would be good, because that's not forever.
	Like, if your father faces a unified front, it might shake him out of his complacency and get him to actually embrace some real change and help.
	And I looked out I looked out my window and I saw them getting in the car with him.
	And I remember it was the last time I spoke to my father.
	The last time. It was over the phone and it was a voice message.
	And it was me screaming into the phone for him to stay back and get away.
	Go away. Go away.
	Who was screaming? You? Me.
	And never heard from him since then.
	I was told that I was in trouble.
	I was in trouble because it was wrong of me what I said.
	And I was like, no.
	I should have said this a long time ago.
	Does your dad have money?
	Yeah. There we go.
	There we go.
	All right. The mystery of the estrogen bond is cracked.
	No, no, that's absolutely true.
	Yeah, yeah. Okay, now I get it.
	No, trust me. Now I get it.
	Yeah, you can't buy them.
	He can't. Exactly. Yeah, okay.
	I'm sorry about that. Yeah, I was bought through, even as a kid, certain things.
	He'd be like, don't tell your mom this, and I'll let you buy that video game at whatever place.
	Yeah. That happened for years.
	That happened for years.
	Yeah, I don't know that you can crack that code, man.
	That's, you know, women's attraction to resources.
	It's... That's a hell of a thing to stand against.
	Yeah, I absolutely agree with that.
	Right. Yeah, you can't have allies, you know, you can't have a band of brothers bond with a mercenary who's sold to the highest bidder, right?
	Right, exactly.
	So, you know, that's one of the things and one of the reasons, and I mean, I get it, because, you know, we're...
	Sometimes we're in a financial twist and maybe on my mother's side she needs help financially or my sister needs to do this or that.
	So they're still asking your abuser for money and he's giving it to them?
	Yes. Yeah.
	I'm sorry, man. That sucks.
	That is really shitty.
	And I'm sorry that you have to see this mercenary side of human nature.
	You know, that's really a terrible thing.
	Like, there's no amount of money that would get me to betray people I love.
	Like, I'm telling you, I would rather live under a bridge.
	I feel bad. That's something I've learned.
	What are you feeling now? Oh, I'm just thinking about it.
	So that's why your mom won't talk about the past.
	And that's why your sisters say put it in the past.
	They say put it in the past because the money's in the present.
	I'm so sorry, man.
	That is... That's terrible.
	And it's shameful behavior.
	To betray your brother to take money for an abuser is wretched.
	Wretched behavior.
	And no wonder you don't feel secure.
	No wonder you don't feel safe. Yeah.
	I'm so sorry, man.
	I'm so sorry.
	And yeah, it's just That's, you know, I just, I haven't felt, I haven't felt just safe.
	I just, I don't know, I just, I just wish things ended up differently.
	And I, I mean, I bet everyone feels that way.
	And you know what you, again, I don't want to tell you your affliction, but going back to the beginning of this conversation, my friend...
	Do you know what you were always checking?
	You were always checking connections.
	Is this connection solid?
	Is this connection wobbly?
	Is this connection secure?
	The HDMI cables, the SATA cables in the computer, you're always checking whether the connections are secure.
	Yeah. See what I'm saying, right?
	Yeah. It's the family.
	My God. Even when the connections seem tight, you gotta fucking check them.
	Because they could come loose at any time, right?
	Right. You're right.
	You're absolutely right.
	I never thought about it that way.
	You know, when I was a kid, I went through a couple of years of obsessing about car exhausts, believe it or not.
	Yeah? Yeah, yeah, so I, um...
	We're walking down the street, and what I'd need to do is I'd need to look at the back of every car to count the exhaust pipes.
	I remember the one car exhaust was cool, two was super cool, three was amazing, and there were these Volkswagen Beetles that had four little exhaust pipes.
	This went on for quite some...
	I'd be probably from about the age of eight to ten.
	I would, like, compulsively, I'd have to turn and look and check behind the cars to see how many exhaust pipes it had.
	Now, I get now why I was doing that.
	Because the exhaust pipe is how the car discharges its pollution, its toxicity, right?
	Right. So I get it now, like I was trying to figure out in the allegorical way that the brain works, which is why dreams are so important.
	I was trying to work out, like, what the hell am I going to do with all this toxicity?
	That it's being generated within me by this fucked up environment.
	How many vents are there?
	How do the cars get rid of all this toxicity that allows them to move?
	The brain works in funny ways.
	I know the OCD is more than this, but the examples you gave me were all checking connections, checking connections, checking connections.
	And if your family is selling you out for money, there ain't no amount of checking HDMI connections or SATA cables that's going to fix that.
	That's so great. That's right.
	And you just have to go...
	Even if they turn around tomorrow, which they're not going to do, but even if they do, you still have to go through the grieving, right?
	Right. All mental dysfunction, according to some theories, results from the avoidance of legitimate suffering.
	By legitimate suffering, I don't mean you should suffer.
	I mean you are suffering from betrayal.
	From betrayal. From betrayal. I felt that a lot.
	I mean, of course I have.
	I mean, that's one of the feelings that I really do feel when talking about this kind of stuff.
	It's just that I feel betrayed.
	Well, you are. No, more than a feeling, as the old song goes.
	More than a feeling. More than a feeling.
	It's more than a feeling. If your mom, your sisters, and with your mom, it's, you know, maybe, I mean, your dad's not giving her money directly, but if he's giving her kids money, then by proxy, she doesn't have to give as much.
	So it's actually saving her money, right?
	Right. I mean, you know, there's like the, you know, help with education.
	He's paying her bills by proxy, right?
	Yes. Okay, so, you know, and I'm sorry to say, but the thinking is, okay, well, why the hell would Bob's childhood matter compared to this money?
	I don't think these connections are secure, says your OCD.
	Well, yeah, but it ain't about cables.
	Oh.
	I'm not a pipe, but it could slip out at any time.
	Exactly. And that's because earlier you talked to me about how great your mom was.
	Like, not an hour ago.
	God, big thing about how great your mom was.
	Yeah. I mean, yeah.
	No, no, no. Don't backtrack, Ben.
	Listen, I'm not saying there's no good things about your mom.
	You understand all of that, right?
	Yeah, no, no, no. I mean, I absolutely understand that.
	I mean, it's just like that kind of feeling where you're like, where you're just like on the...
	Because, I mean, there's that feeling, you know, you have that, like, defense mechanism kind of thing.
	I understand. I understand all of that.
	I understand all of that. But I'm here for you.
	I'm not here for your mom.
	I'm here for you. And the reason you called me is I don't think you've had that experience too much in your life.
	I'm like, oh, I'm sorry, if this rebounds badly on your mom, well, too bad.
	Because I'm here for you.
	And I thank you so much for that.
	You have no idea...
	You need someone in your corner, right?
	Yeah. And I felt like...
	I first feel like I need someone in my corner in my life.
	Like a person that I can...
	That is on my side.
	Yeah. And I also feel like there's that kind of like...
	The missing of masculinity as well.
	It's awful.
	Like, growing up without that...
	And like seeing how other people like, you know, my friends, you know, how they ended up and everything, you know, they have moms and dads or, you know, or just had a mom and dad, but, you know, got to see them and had that function, you know, functional to partial, functional relationship.
	The way that they ended up, you know, and how they deal with problems is completely different from me.
	Like, I just, I wish I had that kind of like that masculine Yeah, I know it's a little freaky to be the internet dad to a lot of people, but listen, I appreciate that, I understand that, and I completely agree with you.
	We all need that. Yeah.
	And not in this sort of sleazy Tom Likas, ban low-rent Latinos kind of way, ban low-rent Latinos kind of way, but, you know, in actual masculinity, not this, like, puffed-up player kind of garbage, right?
	But, you know, actual, right?
	Moral and have integrity and all of that.
	So, yeah, so, I mean, I just wanted to reiterate sort of where I think we've come to the end, but I just really want to reiterate, like, There are treatments, again, this is just my amateur understanding, but there are treatments out there that can really help with some of the practical, like, get your brain to jump out of the tracks, this kind of stuff.
	But I'll tell you, it's a funny thing, you know?
	You can will all of this stuff, right?
	You can will all of this stuff.
	But if you get the right insight, it solves itself.
	I used to chew on my thumb continually.
	Until I was 16 and spent the first night in my father's house in years and years and years and then it went away and never came back.
	Never even had to think about it again.
	Never became something I had to battle, right?
	So if you get to the root, let's say that this has something to do with feelings of betrayal, feelings of a lack of connection, and your brain is like a funny thing, right?
	So your brain is like, okay, well, we've got to check our connections, but the family ones are too risky, so let's just pretend it's about cables or whatever it is, right?
	If this is it, then it may be something that if you deal with the lack of connection in your family, you might find yourself less concerned about Exactly.
	You're so great. And I'm going to do that.
	Will you let me know how it goes?
	Absolutely. I'll give you every single update I can about it and I'll let you know how everything goes and what I find out and just how I'm feeling.
	I'll let you know. Please do.
	And was this useful to you, helpful to you?
	200%. Ah, good. Good.
	All right. Fantastic. Well, keep me posted, man.
	Thanks a lot for a great chat. Thank you.

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