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Sept. 11, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:15:26
NO REALLY! “My Mother in Law is a Witch!” Freedomain Call In
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Alright, hi everybody, Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain, and I'm here with pseudonym Laced Amanda, who has a tale to tell.
Well, I'll let you tell the tale.
How about we stop with that? Alrighty, sounds good.
Alright, well, so there's kind of an issue.
Definitely want some babies in my future, but the issue is that there is no way...
I'm going to let my kids hang around a self-proclaimed solitary witch.
So... And the word there was, sorry, the phrase there was solitary witch, right?
Correct, yes. Okay, the witch part I understand.
I mean, I had a mom.
But what's the solitary part?
Oh, you know, just solitary.
She kind of, you know, makes it up as she goes, does...
She's not like a pagan, but she'll use maybe some paganistic ideas and symbols and things like that.
It's not like a school, like a white witch, or it's not like there's a solitary witch and there's like a communist witch.
It's just a description that she has for herself.
It's not like a formal designation of witchery?
Right. So it's basically self-description.
It basically just consolidates all of those sort of different witchcrafts into whatever she prefers.
Right. Makes sense?
So, quick question.
Wait, do you want to finish the message that you sent to me and then we'll get to that.
Go ahead. Okay.
Yep. Already, so a little bit of backstory.
So, my husband and I were high school sweethearts.
We met in high school.
We fell in love. He sort of found out about my abusive family.
I had sort of a chaotic family growing up.
So what we began to do as young kids, we began to formulate a life plan to escape and be free and live together forever.
So packed up all my bags at 18 and my husband, boyfriend at the time, his mom said that I was able to stay with her and sort of figure things out.
And through that, she and I sort of developed a close relationship.
You know, in my darkest moments, she held me, told me that I was safe, told me that, you know, I was away from my family and that she can help me, you know, start my life.
She was pretty much a badass.
And she taught me how to be a badass myself with confidence and responsibility and things like that.
So that was great.
But yeah, anyway...
Over the years, my husband and I, we moved away to another state.
She became an empty nester, and that's sort of when everything kind of started.
No, the husband's not around?
What? No, the husband's around.
Okay. Because empty nester can be like a single mom or widow or whatever, but okay, so the husband's still around, but go on.
Oh, gotcha, yeah. So, well, okay, she was divorced, so her husband...
Now husband's still around, but empty nester meaning...
Wait, wait, wait! What do you mean?
She's divorced and the husband's not around, is he?
Well, she got divorced whenever my husband was like a little kid.
Oh, so she's a single mom?
Well, she got remarried like a few years ago.
Ah, okay. And the new husband is still around?
Correct. Okay. Thank you for clearing that up.
Sorry about that. Go ahead. Oh, no problem.
I want to make sure everything's clear.
But yeah, so my husband and I moved away to another state.
And then we decided to come home and visit.
And we found out that my husband's old bedroom was turned into a witchcraft room.
So we definitely weren't expecting that.
Like, she had... Oh, so it's not a shrine to the old Frank Sinatra song, but you're talking like, honest to goodness, three witches in Macbeth, witch.
No, it's just like a legit witch.
Okay. So yeah, no, like, you know, there were crystals everywhere in her room, there were herbs, books on spells, and different sort of Geodes and crystals and we found like potion jars spread throughout the house.
We found one in the freezer, which was kind of weird.
I don't know. I guess they're supposed to do something.
The weird part was the...
Okay, the whole thing is weird, just so you know.
I mean, I'm sorry.
I don't mean to laugh because it's a tragic thing.
But, you know, it's like the weirdness doesn't start because there's a witchy potion in the freezer.
The weirdness starts when you've got a coven in the house that's transformed your husband's boyhood room into some sort of pentagram-laced...
Homage to the other world.
All right. Anyway, go on. Yeah, I mean, it's safe today.
I was afraid to sleep in that room.
Wait, did you sleep in the room?
I mean, I didn't have anywhere else to sleep.
Yeah. The church?
Something blessed with holy water?
I know. Okay, all right.
I was saying my prayers.
Okay, but what...
I mean... No, no, go ahead.
Go ahead. I don't want to interrupt.
Go ahead. I mean, I want to interrupt, but I won't.
Go ahead. It's okay.
So yeah, at that point, whenever we saw his room, that's when we realized, this is probably the real deal.
I mean, she definitely wasn't like, kidding when she was texting us weird things.
So, but I mean, After she became a witch, it sort of was uphill in her life.
I mean, she was telling me all about her new job, and she got a promotion, and she's making...
Wait, she's got a job as a witch?
Well, no, she got a...
Well, that's coming.
But at that time, no, she got a promotion at some...
I don't know. Broomstick delivery.
I don't know. Sorry. Okay.
Something health related. But yeah, no, she got a...
Please tell me it's not mental health related.
It's not. Okay, good, good.
But yeah, I mean, she was telling me about all the spells she did to get that promotion, things like that.
And she... She was basically telling me that because I told her upfront that it was a little kind of strange and I was a little bit concerned.
So I was asking what her intentions were and she said, you know, I just want to help people.
I just want to protect people.
You know, I just want to be good in someone's life.
And I was like, okay, well, all right, I'll just let that one slide, I guess.
But fast forwarding a couple of years.
So as of right now, recently, I guess, like the past month or so, she totally quit her job.
She has no job at all, and she said that the reason is because she was bullied, which, I mean, I don't know if she told everyone at work she was a witch, but yeah.
It could be a slightly career-limiting move to announce your witchiness at work, unless your job is actually being a druid or something.
Which I have no idea if she did that or not, but...
But I mean, that's just totally unlike the person that I knew.
Whenever she took me in after I moved out of my parents' house, I mean, she was the one teaching me how to conquer life and, you know, be this strong person and a strong woman.
And now here she is, you know, jobless, you know, saying that she's a victim of bullying.
Now she wants to write a book on it and things like that.
So I'm not really sure, I guess, how true that is.
You probably are kind of sure how true that is though.
Yeah, she also does things like talk to ghosts and goes to graveyards and gets to know the dead, which is also confusing because that's a medium.
It's not a witch. Do witches do that?
I don't know. She's not staying in her crazy lane?
Is that your issue?
She's crossing the median to some other crazy lane?
I mean, that's totally crossing, right?
Like, if you're going to be crazy...
If you're going to be nuts, please be consistent.
Okay. Well, yeah, make it a little bit more rational for me.
Oh, man. Okay, go on.
Okay. But yeah, so she called herself a solitary witch.
We just discussed that that's sort of the consolidation of whatever sort of witchcraft you wish to practice.
I mean... I absolutely love her.
She's the only family that I really have.
My family's never really been there for me.
She has been there for me, so I absolutely love her to death.
Wait, you love the memory or who she is now?
Okay, well, you know, that's up for debate.
Good, I'm glad it's up for debate.
All right, we don't have to debate it now, but I'm just glad it's up for debate for the record.
Yeah, I love who she was.
Hopefully she's still there.
But anyway, we can get to that. So, all in all, I just don't really want my future babies around that.
She puts spells on me and my husband, but, you know, they're protective spells.
I don't want spells on my kids, whether it's real or not.
Oh, spoiler, it's not.
You know, I mean, I know that this mother-in-law and you want to be diplomatic, but I don't have to be diplomatic because I'm not in her family.
But no, it's not. It's not real, right?
Okay, well, it just creeps me out, okay?
No, listen, it's creepy. Don't get me wrong.
The creep is real.
The spells aren't real.
And the creep is real because the spells aren't real.
I mean, if the spells were real, it would be science.
It wouldn't be like mysticism, right?
Right. If the spells were real, I guess everybody would be doing that, but...
Yeah, so it's just a warped mentality.
I'd like to keep a relationship with her if possible, and I'd really like her to have a relationship with my kids because, you know, I don't have any other family, so how do I keep a relationship with a witch?
You know, the funny thing is I already have the title for the show and people are going to think I'm trawling.
They're going to think it's clickbait, but it's not.
I swear, I know.
I know we're kind of joking around a bit, but I don't want that to eclipse the fact that this is a painful and difficult issue and question, right?
Oh yeah, no, we can totally joke about the witch thing.
Yeah, yeah, but I don't want it to be just comedy fest stuff, because this is nuts, but you respected this woman.
She was a place of sanctuary and comfort, doing a very difficult time in your life.
Your family of origin sounds like a complete catastrophe fest.
So, you know, I just want you to know, I do find it a little funny, but I also do recognize the seriousness of it, and I'm not going to just, you know, yuck it up for all of that.
So I just want to be... Be clear about that.
I respect that it's not an easy thing to call in about, although I think we can both recognize that there are some funny aspects to it.
Right. Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
All right. Is there anything else you wanted to add before I start my usual scalpel excavation?
I'm ready for the scalpel excavation.
All right. Your family of origin, Amanda, what was the story with that?
I don't know. Everyone's just crazy.
Good thing you escaped all that now, isn't it?
Seriously. Oh my gosh.
I know. Everything old is new again, right?
Well, let's see here.
Hey, if it's any consolation, I spent my childhood doing battle with a crazy person.
Now I just battle the world, which is crazy.
So it's, you know, I don't know how far we can get off the original plantation.
That's all I'm saying. But all right.
So yeah, you say everyone was crazy, but was it like amusing crazy?
Was it baffling crazy?
Was it abusive crazy?
Like what area are we in?
It would be abusive crazy.
I mean, it was super intense.
Super intense. But I really have no idea where to start with this, so I guess I could...
Okay, what's physical abuse, verbal abuse, sexual abuse?
What are we talking? Oh, okay.
Yeah, physical and verbal, like, you know, hitting, punching, stopping, all that.
I guess verbal would be my mom calling me a little shit all the time and criticizing the way that I look, the way that I act.
I guess constantly on a daily basis.
So that's kind of that.
Forgive me if I'm out of line here, but given this and the witchiness and so on, this doesn't strike me as a particularly waspy culture, if that makes any sense.
What do you mean waspy culture?
White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, that kind of stuff.
Is there a cultural background that I need to be aware of?
No. I mean, Welsh.
Welsh. I don't know if there's a...
Ah, that explains so much.
No, it doesn't actually explain much.
No, it doesn't. All right.
Okay. No, I was just wondering about that, right?
If we were talking a Haitian or something, you know, it's just important to know for some sort of context.
Okay. But I'm sorry to hear about all of that.
And was it continual?
Did it kind of peak and diminish at points in your childhood?
I always remember being super anxious about my mom, like, ever since, like, elementary school...
But, I mean, it really got bad probably middle school.
Middle school and on, it was just unbearable.
And was that the physical or the verbal?
Both. And, you know, it's particularly tragic for girls.
And I really want to sympathize with that, Amanda, because for boys, we just get big.
And strong. And so, I can't remember, as you know, my mom hit me a lot when I was a kid, and then, you know, one day I just grabbed her hand, and I was like, she's not looking down, she's looking up.
And that, so, but for girls it can last longer because you're smaller and because you're not as strong and so on, right?
Maybe less testosterone for fighting back, I don't know, but it really, it's something I've noticed over the years, and I just really want to, I want people to understand this difference, this distinction.
You know, why is it that A lot of women feel very anxious in the world about physical violence.
Well, part of it is feminist paranoia, but part of it is genuinely that for a woman, for a girl, for a little girl, physical abuse usually lasts longer than it does for a boy because of the size difference a lot of times.
And I just really wanted to sort of point that out and extend my enormous sympathies for that because, you know, every extra blow just chips away a little bit of who you are, right?
Oh, yeah. No, I mean...
I thought about hitting back so much.
Every single time I would just, you know, dream about it.
But I mean, I was so little and every single aspect of my life was under their control.
If I did anything to, like, make anything worse, I mean, I don't even know what would have happened.
Yeah. Yeah, no, and I, you know, you were wise and you were right to not do it.
I don't know. Maybe. No, listen.
Compliance in the face of abuse is an essential survival strategy.
You know, fight or flight is for predator-prey relationships, but subjugation and compliance is the optimum survival strategy for victims of child abuse.
And a lot of times, you know, we look back and we say, oh man, I should have punched back.
I should have done this. I should have done that.
It's like, no, you shouldn't have. No, no, no, no, no, no.
That's a very, very bad idea, particularly for girls, right?
They lack the physical strength and size and testosterone and aggression and so on, right?
It is a very wise thing to do to not find out if they'll actually kill you.
And people, this sounds like hyperbole to people from more peaceful households, but I think, I mean, I don't want to draw you into my circle of knowing if it doesn't apply to you, Amanda, but I think you and I kind of know, you don't want to find out where the abuse ends.
You don't want to find out how far they want to go, because how far they might want to go is killing you.
Now, I'm not saying on purpose.
But it could happen, right?
I mean, you just get one push at the top of a flight of stairs and you stumble and you break your neck and it's, you know, bye-bye Amanda and bye-bye Steph.
Yep. That's definitely true.
So you don't...
Everybody thinks they're going to be some kind of tough guy when those kinds of situations.
But what is it? I can't remember who said this.
Maybe it was Mike Tyson who said, everybody has a plan to get punched in the face.
Oh, yeah. It's the same thing with child abuse, you know, you sit there and you plot and you plan and then you get punched in the face and it's like, all right, I'm not punching back, especially if you're outnumbered, right?
Because if you have two parents and it's just you, you don't know what they might do and they are in control of your food and they're in control of your shelter and they're in control of your resources as a whole and they have the law and you don't and no, no, I mean, it's comply or die and, you know, who wants to die?
Yeah, yeah. I would always go up into my room and write in my journal because she lied all the time.
My mom did. I would just write in my journal the truth.
What happened? What happened in this situation?
Objectively, was I in the wrong?
I would literally do that as a little kid just so I can stay sane and sort of play her game.
Right. No, that's essential.
And listen, like, fantastic for you for doing that.
Like, what a powerful thing and a life-saving thing to do.
I mean, sanity-saving thing, which to me is like being insane is worse than being dead.
So what a sanity-saving thing to do and fantastic.
Like, incredible, incredible insight and foresight and hanging on to your sanity, right?
Yeah. I mean, I wrote this on Twitter today.
I was talking about somebody was saying, oh, he's going to be, Steph would be a pushover debate.
I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm really not.
Because I grew up fighting craziness in the form of my mother.
And so, you know, when I first jumped onto the debate stage here in Canada with no experience, first time I went to a debating contest in Canada, it was nationwide.
I came in sixth out of probably a thousand people.
So, you know, less than 1%, like the top less than 1%.
And it's like I spent so much time fighting my mother's craziness that I developed what are almost supernatural rhetorical skills to people who haven't been through that kind of experience.
And, you know, most mental muscles are built on scar tissue and most people don't know that.
And so your abilities, which are considerable and impressive, are there because you were in extraordinary danger.
Yeah. You spend your whole life with people coughing up their craziness on you and you're trying not to inhale the virus, right?
It's pretty fucking tiring.
That's a really good analogy, yeah.
No, that's exactly what it was like.
Yeah, my mother was constantly trying to pour or vomit her craziness down my throat like some evil bird feeding a baby.
And you just got to, you know, like the kid when you, the baby, well, you'll see when you become a mom, your baby doesn't want to eat something, they purse their lips.
And that's where no comes from side to side, right?
The heads go side to side. And you got to do that with crazy for 20 years.
You get some skills.
You really do. You really do.
And hopefully we can use them for the good in the world.
But All right.
So how did you...
I mean, you kind of got out?
You got away or distanced yourself?
Or how did that work? Heck yeah, man.
I'm free. I've been free since 18, man.
I mean, emotionally, I've kind of gone back to my family just to kind of test the waters, see...
See if it's possible to change others, which it's not.
No, it's not. I can no more change others or you than we can digest their food for them or go to the bathroom for them.
There you go. I'm free.
My mom...
She actually randomly texted me today.
That's been like the first time in like a year.
So that was super weird.
I'm not going to tell you. You know this, I don't believe it, but this simulation talk or like life is a simulation.
Isn't it kind of funny that the day you're going to talk to me, your mom texts you?
I know. No, it's weird.
These patterns, I mean, that's more of a psychic thing, which I don't believe in, but I remember I ended up ending a relationship that was not productive for me, and later on I realized it was pretty much down to the same month that my parents got divorced in terms of how old I was.
It's just funny little patterns in life.
All right, so you've been free since 18, and you've had a pretty considerable distance from them as far as I understand it.
And how old were you when you met your husband?
Yeah. Oh, how old I was?
I mean, he was my first boyfriend in middle school, so I was like 14, but then we dated off and on throughout high school.
So, yeah, it goes back a while.
And you are married, right?
Yep. Yeah, and when did you get married?
19. When you were 19?
Mm-hmm. Oh, good for you, man.
And does he share your perspective of your family?
Of my family? Oh yeah, definitely.
Okay, so he's like, yep, keep, because you know, that's important, right?
Because if he's like, oh, your family's crazy, we should probably keep them at an arm's length, then he's going to have a tougher time wanting to bring his mom into the mix, right?
Well, maybe. No, logically.
No, not maybe. Logically, right?
If he's like, oh, man, it's great that you keep your crazy family at arm's distance.
It's like, well, I want my mom to move in.
It's like, I think we might have an integrity crack here.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no, he's a little bit more set on.
Yeah, he's a little bit more, I guess, firm on what he believes with his mom and stuff.
And I'm the one still trying to figure it out.
Wait, so what does he want to do with his mom?
Well, I mean, we're not going to have kids for probably another five years or so.
Why not? Well, right now he's in law school, so that would be really difficult.
And I'm working and I'm thinking about going back to school.
And how old are you? Five years.
25. Yay, okay.
Just, you know, look up fertility, man.
That's all I'm telling you. I know.
I know. Okay, just so you know, because, you know, this is kind of kept from people, and I just want this to be out there.
Yeah, the eggs get a little, you know, you get half baby, half raptor, right?
So just be aware of that, and, you know, whatever you can do to move it up.
It's, you know, from what I've heard, it's profoundly unsexy to get fertility treatments.
So anyway, just something to mull over as you move.
No, just don't wait forever. That's all I'm saying.
I won't wait. That's why I have a time limit.
I think five years is pretty good.
Pretty reasonable, right?
Yeah. Starting at 30 is not bad as long as you stay on schedule and, you know, if you can move it forward, so much the better.
But anyway, that's just my particular old guy advice.
All right. Now, so what does he want to do with his mom, assuming, you know, kids floating around?
And even before then, you've got five years even before you have kids.
I don't know. Do you want a whole bunch of hexes around the house?
I don't know. He wants to kind of wait and see if it's just like another phase in her life.
She's gone through some phases, I guess.
Like one of it was like a biker phase and that lasted, you know, only maybe five, ten years.
A biker phase?
Yeah, like motorcycles and stuff.
No, I get that. Are they getting crazier?
Is what getting crazier?
These phases. Well...
Yes. Because, you know, I've only got two data points to work with, but biker not too crazy, witch crazy, because, you know, you may look back on the witch thing saying, wow, we thought that was crazy.
Now, whatever, right?
Yeah, it's, um, I guess they are progressively getting crazier.
Yeah. Considering where we're at now.
But yeah, my husband is sort of late.
Where are you guys in terms of physical proximity to his mom?
Like a few hundred miles, so definitely.
You got some buffer.
Yeah, we definitely have some buffer.
And what is the story with her, not that new husband, I guess, anymore, but her current husband?
Have you talked to him?
Does he seem to be expressing any concern about this situation?
Oh, it's so bad.
Oh, my gosh. At first, like, he didn't really say anything about it.
But now...
Well, it could be a silent spell.
No, just kidding. Go on. Maybe.
Oh, dear. But now he's like literally claiming to see ghosts as well.
And she's like telling him to talk to the ghost that he's seeing.
And apparently he has a ghost following him around all day, every day.
And like, I don't know.
He's worked by it too.
And he wasn't that way before, is that right?
No, he was not that way.
I could never imagine him even saying that.
Man, she's got to be good in bed.
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but whenever I hear about a guy following a woman down crazy train, I'm like, wow, she must be able to inhale golf balls through a garden hose, man.
That's something else. I cannot even think about that.
Well, there's a reason why a man follows a crazy woman, and it's usually not because of the quality of her arguments, right?
Anyway. So, yeah, I think he's warped by it a little bit.
All right. Or a lot.
Okay, so he's not going to help.
There are no brakes on that train, right?
Nope. And the only people she has in her life right now are her kids and her witch friends.
Yeah, I can see how surrounding yourself with witches might close off other social possibilities.
Especially if she's not quiet about it, right?
Completely, yeah. So, I mean, yeah.
Alright, alright. And when did this start?
Did you know of? We found the witchcraft room in 2016.
You found it?
She didn't tell you? She didn't tell me about the room.
I think she hinted at it to my husband and But I know she sort of hinted that she was interested in, like, witchcraft and crystals.
And I was like, oh, this is just one of those popular New Age things where everybody loves sage and whatever.
But then we came home in 2016 and we're like, oh, crap.
This is, like, all throughout her house now.
Now, where do you stand?
You mentioned religious beliefs.
And where do you stand with regards to...
I don't want to say mysticism because that's kind of an insult to religion, but other worlds and spirits and ghosts and so on.
I don't know.
I just...
Let me think.
I mean, there could potentially be a possibility.
There's no evidence and there's no proof.
I'm a Christian, so I believe in God and heaven, and if I believe in things like that, I mean, that doesn't necessarily have...
You know, scientific proof.
Well, no, but the Christian religion does not account really for ghosts, though, right?
Because, I mean, you don't stick around on this plane.
You're going to heaven, you're going to purgatory, you're going to hell, right?
Right, yeah. On this plane, ghosts...
I mean, maybe. Maybe it's possible.
Like, residual energy, like...
I can't reason through that stuff, but...
Yeah, you can.
Listen, I mean, we won't...
I mean, the faith stuff is fine.
I mean, I'm not going to try and talk to you about that.
But this residual energy stuff, no, no, come on.
I mean, the ghosts, clanking chains and spells and potions, I mean, this is mental garbage, man.
This is not healthy.
It's not right.
It's not good.
And it's selfish, too.
Like, listen, I'd have... If your mother-in-law had become, like, some fundamentalist Christian or whatever, okay, so, you know, some of the stuff you and I may not agree with, but at least there's some bloody discipline in that.
This is all just hedonistic, dance-naked-in-the-woods, sex-with-elves stuff, right?
I mean, this is like... Weird stuff.
And there's no, there's a problem I have with mysticism, is it's spirituality, so to speak, without responsibility.
I mean, you're a Christian, you got some pretty strict rules to follow, right?
You got to love your enemies, you got to give to the poor, you're like, there's things you got to do.
And sometimes they're pretty damn hard.
But this woo woo, you know, everything is energy kind of crap.
It's like, well, what? What restrictions does that put on you?
What responsibilities do you now have that you didn't have before?
And it's like, well, none really.
Well, and she started it all with wanting to help people and protect people and whatever.
But, I mean, all she's doing is sitting in her room, doing her rituals, doing her seances and whatever.
And she's not actively going out in the world and doing anything.
Yeah, do you feel like volunteering at a soup kitchen?
No. Do you feel like joining a nice religion and actually praying for people and giving them money?
No. But I really like these crystals.
It's like, yeah, yeah, okay. So you don't really care about helping people.
It's all just you want to feel good without actually having to do anything that doesn't come easy, right?
Exactly, yeah. No, that's what she's kind of doing.
So you found this room in 2016...
Were there any indications beforehand?
I mean, first of all, I mean, anybody with any empathy would prepare you for that kind of stuff, right?
Say, hey, you know, my life's taking a little bit of a different turn.
Your room may not look the same as it used to.
And she didn't, right?
She just let you open the door and handle it yourself?
Yeah. Well, and I mean, I asked her about it, obviously.
Like, so, like, what's going on?
Like, what is all this?
Any reason for the pig's head in the bed?
I'm just curious if that's all right.
And she's like, oh, yeah, I know.
So, you know, it's just part of my witchcraft.
And I was like, well, you're not, like, pagan or, like, anything just, like, weird like that, right?
And she was like... Oh no, I'm a solitary witch.
I was like, well, what's that? And then she went into her spiel about that and how that's better than other witchcrafts and things like that.
I was like, okay. And I mean, ever since then, she's just been talking to us about it like it's just totally normal.
And I mean, I don't know how to say anything or like, you know, bring up, hey, witchcraft is not real.
This is all in your head. You're making this up.
I mean, she's got a lot of her own issues that I feel like this is all stemming from.
Well, yeah, obviously. The other thing, too, that as a Christian, right, this is something I kind of wanted to ask you about, right?
Like, as a Christian, I mean, there's got to be some kind of uneasiness in this as well, right?
Because, I mean, she's dabbling with some pretty dark stuff, right?
Oh, yeah. I mean, there's not a lot of good Christian witches in history, right?
I mean, in the Bible, it says you're not even supposed to practice witchcraft.
Well, of course, because it's considered to be a gateway to demons, right?
Exactly, yeah. And I know this is to my more secular audience, and I understand all of that.
And if you want to, you can think about it like if you dabble in this kind of mysticism, you dissolve your relationship to empirical reality, which fragments your mind and makes you feel crazy, and that's the demon they're talking about.
However you want to phrase it, it's considered dangerous to dabble in this kind of stuff.
In brain-dissolving, metaphysical-shattering mysticism without any community or responsibilities, that is not good.
That is not good for your brain and not good for your relationships.
Right. I mean, practically, there's consequences.
And they're not typically good consequences.
But, yeah, I don't know.
I have no idea.
I can't even really comprehend all this.
Well, I mean, the reality is you do know, but it's hard to know.
Okay, so... Yeah.
Has the belief system altered much since you found out about it in 2016?
Um... Just the tone of it.
I mean, the belief system.
I mean... Has it gotten any stronger or gone in any different direction?
Yeah, it's gotten stronger because just within the past year she expressed that she can talk to ghosts and apparently she's been able to talk to ghosts since she was a little kid.
I asked my husband, have you ever seen your mom talking to ghosts?
Like, I've never heard of this.
And he said, no.
I'm like, where is this coming from?
Why is she literally sitting there lying?
But... Yeah, no, it's progressively gotten worse because it started out, she wanted to help and protect people.
Now it's coming too. She literally is casting spells on people at her former job who were bullying her.
And that's resentful.
That's resentment. And, you know, that's not good.
That was not in your original plan of witchcraft.
So... I'm going to assume that your mother-in-law's name is not Billie Eilish, just because that would be temporally crazy, but just wondering, just wondering, because apparently all the good girls go to hell.
So it's getting worse, right?
And this is getting worse in the span of a couple of years, right?
Yeah. Now, the one thing that, well, it's more than one thing, but you touched on this, and I just wanted to check on this, because the one thing that you had talked about Was that she keeps talking about it, right? And she won't shut up about it.
And it kind of puts you in an impossible situation, right?
Yeah. Right? Which is like, I don't agree with any of this stuff.
In fact, I find it really disturbing.
But I can't, you don't feel like you can talk about it, right?
Like you can't push back and say, okay, come on, like this, come on.
Well, I did a little bit.
Not very much. I just told her I disagree, like straight up.
To her face. She just kind of kept going.
And then the next time we hung out, she didn't talk about it once.
And that was even more uncomfortable because I know you're a witch and you're not talking about it anymore.
And you're just trying to do all these like normal things, but you're not talking about the biggest part of your life.
So that was weird.
I didn't say anything. I could have said something, but I didn't.
But it's not like you can have a conversation about it.
No, we can't just straight up have a conversation.
I would just have to throw in, you know, just random, like, small little comments just to give her the hint.
I've sort of taken the approach, like, I don't really want to deal with this.
I, like, I talk to my husband.
I'm like, you know, you need to figure this out.
This probably isn't the best way to go about it.
I understand that. But I told my husband, you should probably figure this out.
You need to somehow get her off this path because...
No, he can't. What's he going to do?
What's he going to do? I mean, seriously, he hasn't got a magic wand, right?
What's he going to do? No, he's being a little bit more open, like he's been talking to her.
Oh, what now?
He's what? Open?
To witches?
To witching? No, no, no, sorry.
He's been talking to her and sort of trying to...
Question all of her beliefs and sort of trying to help her rationalize a little bit more.
He's trying to guide her in rationalizing her way out of this.
But in my eyes, it looks like he's kind of asking her all these questions and she probably thinks he's just interested in the witchcraft as opposed to trying to help her get out of it.
Right, right. Okay, okay.
So... No, I forget that.
So, Amanda, what do you think this belief system, how is it serving her?
What is she gaining from it?
What does she need it for?
Um... I know she's...
Recently she was diagnosed with depression, and everything sort of started after...
Wait, how recently? Oh gosh, let's see.
2017? So a year or so after she'd started the whole witchy stuff.
Mm-hmm. A couple years. So it ain't helping, right?
Yeah, exactly.
And I don't, I guess it's just giving her something to do.
I mean, she's sitting there at home feeling like she's Having this wide and large impact on the world because her spells can reach people.
I mean, she feels like she's helping us when she puts spells on us and she used to send us like, you know, I don't know, witch stuff, like candles and things like that, which she hasn't done that in a while.
I'm glad, but I don't know.
She feels like she's doing a greater deed.
So it makes her feel important and relevant?
Useful? I would imagine so, yeah.
Because, I mean, there's usually a kind of twisted rationality even in The Greatest Craziness, right?
I mean, you know, my mom believes that doctors injected her with illnesses and that's what made her sick and that's what made her life a huge mess and all that.
Now, It's not that hard for me, and it's easy for me because I've had more time to think about it, but it's not that hard to figure out why she'd want to believe that.
She'd want to believe that because she abused her children and she doesn't want to take ownership for it, which I can completely understand.
And so all the dysfunction in her family was the result of those evil doctors who just wanted to inject her with illnesses, right?
So you can sort of understand why, because craziness can go just about any direction, right?
The question is, why does it go in a particular direction?
And that can usually help sort of figure out the root of it.
And that doesn't solve it.
It's not like me knowing this doesn't solve my mom's craziness.
But I understand it.
And that helps me to understand that I'm not responsible for it and can't fix it.
Because we want closure.
We either want to do things in life that can have an effect or we want to avoid doing things that we can't fix.
Right? Right.
Because doing things...
Like, not doing things when you can change things is not great.
It's not good. And then trying to change things you can't, well, it's just kind of crazy, right?
So we have to, you know...
So, yeah, the question is why this in particular?
Why does she want to talk...
Why does she want to talk to the dead?
Why does she believe...
Like, a ghost is following her husband around?
Is that right? Apparently, yeah.
But... So what I'm thinking...
Think of things, sorry to interrupt, but think of things like, you know, people who go to the past lives, bullshit artists, right?
Oh, you know, you were a queen in ancient Egypt, right?
They're never like you were a sewage disposal expert in Lyon in the 14th century.
It's always some big and glamorous thing, right?
So why do they need a life that was glamorous in the past?
Because their life is...
Dull in the present, right?
So there's usually something, right?
So why the dead?
Why does she need that?
What's that serving her?
Well, I know that she used to be a part of a Pentecostal church, I think.
Like some sort of Christian church.
That was super intense.
Well, it's like a talkie snakies and speaking in tongues and all that stuff, right?
Yeah, and like everything, technologies, like of the devil and whatever.
So I think that might have sort of, I mean, she grew up with that sort of irrationality.
So I feel like that's sort of relatable to what she's doing right now.
No, but they would be very much against witchcraft, right?
They would. So maybe in retaliation...
I feel like we're just making stuff up now.
It's like that Freudian thing.
No, no, listen, this is what you do.
You beat the bushes till you see a grass, right?
I mean, so let's keep doing it, but it doesn't quite click yet.
When did her last... You said she's an empty nester.
When did her last child leave home? Oh, that was...
I think 2015.
Okay, so the belief system is serving to isolate her, right?
Oh, yeah. Because, you know, if you feel lonely, then most people would, you know, sort of reach out to people and try and join clubs or contribute to a community or, you know, you'd find something, right?
So this is something wherein the belief systems that she's pursuing...
Is isolating her, and it's also making people around her feel helpless and frustrated.
Yeah. Now, people who can't express their emotions verbally, who can't conceptualize and understand and express their emotions verbally, almost always end up provoking those same emotions in other people.
True. Right?
So, you know, it's like teenagers who can't verbalize that they're irritated will act in ways that are extremely irritating to other people.
Right. Right. So, the feelings that you have are most likely the feelings at the bottom of what your mother-in-law is dealing with.
So, what do you feel about this situation?
What are the deep feelings about this?
Like, which part of the situation?
Or the whole situation?
The whole situation. Oh dear.
What's he asking me about my feelings for?
It's a philosophy show. It's definitely frustrating because I can't really sit and have a rational conversation about it or at least sort of discuss it.
It's kind of sad.
It's really sad.
I feel bad for her.
And then I also am kind of sad that, well, really sad that she could potentially not be in my life just because of this decision, and she doesn't even know it.
Like, that's pretty depressed.
Sorry, what do you mean she gets attention?
Oh, no, I didn't say attention.
Oh, I thought you said she gets attention in her life.
Oh, no, I said she doesn't even know it.
She doesn't even know... That she might not be in our lives whenever we have kids.
Oh, I see. She doesn't know the consequences, right?
Right. Okay.
Okay, so you feel sad, right?
Uh-huh. Helpless, I assume, right?
Frustrated? Yeah. A little confused, right?
Oh, super confused.
And I'll tell you this.
And awkward, too. Sorry?
I said an awkward, too.
That's a good one. Awkward, too.
And I'll tell you this, too.
I'm telling you what I'm getting.
And this doesn't mean that you're feeling this.
I'm just telling you what I'm getting.
So don't ever let me tell you what you feel.
You know that, right? But I'll just say, I think you're kind of pissed.
Because it's like, you know what?
I grew up with a crazy family lady.
Can you not bring this into my life now?
Oh, yeah. Of course that's there.
Okay. Yeah, I just wanted to check, right?
100%. Because, like, this is really annoying, right?
She knows that you came from a crazy family, so, you know, bringing this shit into your life is, it's hitting your harshest buttons, right?
But now she's, you know, someone who she wasn't whenever I met.
Like, she was a strong, independent, encouraging woman whenever I met her.
Okay, well, now that's a whole other question, right?
No. Well, yeah, now I'm wondering.
No, no, but listen, I mean, has she been checked out medically?
What do you mean?
Like, she's got some medical issues, yeah.
Well, I don't know. I mean, if she was a strong, independent, rational woman, and now she's a witch, does she have a brain tumor?
Oh, no. Okay.
As long as she's getting regular medical care, that's an important thing.
You know, she could have some brain degenerative disease.
I don't know, right? It could be anything, right?
I mean, yeah, that's possible.
But she's been checked out, right?
Yeah. And none of her medical issues you think would affect her cognitive ability?
I don't think so, except for depression, obviously, but...
Right, right. Okay, okay.
That's an important thing to check, right?
There's been a huge personality change.
So then the question is, because now it's around your judgment, right?
So if you judged her as a rational, unsensible woman, and she's a crazy witch, then the real danger there is your perception of your own judgment, right?
Yeah. So, what do you think might have been, or looking back, were there any signs in hindsight that you look back and say, yeah, it was not impossible to see some of this coming?
I mean, the way she acted toward me, I mean, I can't think of anything that would...
Hmm. Okay, okay, let me ask you this then.
If she's such a strong woman, why on earth is she married to such a weak-willed man?
I mean, dude, he was seriously so strong.
I don't even know what happened.
Obviously, he's weak-willed. Oh my gosh, I don't even know these people.
She cast a spell on him and took his spine.
I swear, dude, he was like one of those buff, macho, like, intense guys that, like, you don't want to mess with.
And then all of a sudden, I hear her Saying he believes in ghosts and stuff.
Like, I don't... Dude, I don't know how that happened.
So... And does your husband...
Sorry to interrupt. Does your husband have any theories?
Or have you, I assume, talked about this as to where this may be coming from?
Um... He thinks it's...
I mean, first of all, she's always kind of gone into different phases and he thinks this is another phase.
Um... He thinks it's sort of like a...
She freaked out when her kids were gone because her kids...
She worked, I mean, three jobs just to support her kids and all of a sudden they're gone and she has all this time, nothing to do, no energy...
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold the phone.
I think we just bumped something along the road.
I want to turn the car around.
She worked three jobs to take care of her kids?
She did, yeah. Why?
Does her husband not make any money?
Her former husband...
I mean, they both kind of got married young and they really weren't educated.
Yeah, they really weren't educated, so they just had to work a lot.
No, but didn't she divorce when your husband was little?
Yeah, whenever, well, little as in like intermediate school, middle school-ish.
Okay, so did she stop working as hard when she got remarried?
Sort of. A little bit, yeah, because he made a little bit more money and she didn't have to work three jobs.
She only had to work one job.
Okay, so does she regret not spending time with her kids?
I mean, she claims that she was the best mom in the world.
Okay, so she's delusional because you cannot work three jobs and be the best mom in the world.
You can't. You just can't.
Yeah, I know. Yeah, she's...
She's not fully aware of sort of the lack of attention, I think, that she gave her kids.
Okay, so this is interesting, right?
We may be getting somewhere here, and this is useful.
Okay. Oh.
Well, what else do I need to say?
Sorry? Wait, where's it going?
Well, so she spent a lot of time at work.
Three jobs, right? She spent a lot of time at work being there for her children, right?
In her mind, right?
Loving her children and thinking about her children, right?
If that makes sense. Now, if she's used to loving at a distance, to being removed but having an effect, which is what she probably told herself, When she was working those three jobs, right?
I'm still there for my kids, right?
And now what is she doing as a witch?
She's having an effect from a distance.
Oh, that's interesting.
I haven't really drawn that parallel.
Now, she doesn't have to be present to people in order to be positively affecting them, right?
Yeah. So this is the same stuff that she told herself in a less mystical fashion with regards to her kids.
Right. And I don't believe, I don't believe she had to work three jobs.
I just don't. Something else was going on there.
Because look, you can always, you know, if your kids are young, you can move in with your parents.
You can rent a basement apart.
Babies don't care. Babies don't care where the hell you are.
You can just downgrade to the point where you can find a way to spend time with your kids, right?
There was no... I can't conceive of a situation, in the first world at least, where the woman simply has no choice but to work three jobs.
Yeah, I don't know.
Well, that's important. Yeah, I don't know the reasonings, but I know she didn't have any family to turn to.
Why didn't she have any family to turn to?
Well, she had issues of her own.
I mean, she was outcast.
I think she ran away from home.
Okay, so hang on, right?
So she had a hell of a childhood too, right?
Uh-huh, yeah. Probably huge amounts of abuse.
I mean, to run away from home, for a woman in particular, I mean, come on.
We all know what's out there for girls.
It's not good. You know who's out there for girls?
Jeffrey Epstein. Oh, God.
No, I'm not kidding, right? I mean, look, for girls to run away, it's almost always sexual abuse.
I know it was abuse. I don't know.
Oh, come on, man. For a girl to run away from home, the only way that people are going to give her shelter is in return for sexual access, for the most part, right?
I mean, I'm talking about generalities here, right?
So if it's verbal abuse, the girl is not going to trade in the possibility of getting raped in the streets, sexually preyed upon, just for the sake of verbal abuse.
If it's physical abuse, Well, she's going to get physical abuse out on the streets, but she also will add physical abuse plus there could be rape and sexual abuse, sexual assault out there on the streets, right, for girls.
So the only reason, I think, the only reason that you'd end up running away from home as a girl is because, well, you are already being sexually assaulted.
So the streets don't, like, there's no trade down.
Like, why would you jump out of a plane?
Because it's about to hit a mountain.
If you stay on the plane, so if she stays in the family, for sure she's going to get sexually assaulted, but if she leaves and goes to the street, there's a chance she might not be.
Maybe. I don't know.
I mean, certainly... Be a more interesting conversation than what do you brew to make a pet go in the litter box.
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't really know all too much about Her personal life, and it probably helped me to understand a little bit more, like, why she's doing all this.
You know. Running away.
Running away. Come on.
Teenage runaway girls.
Everybody knows what a desperate situation that is, right?
Yeah, it's a desperate situation, that's for sure.
So it, I mean, you got out when you were 18, but you didn't run away when you were 15, right?
Right. So it's worse than what you had.
So if you're going to try and tell me that this woman, right, so if she was abused when she was very young, and we are theorizing here, right, but it's good to sort of map the possible landscape, right?
So if she was abused when she was very young, Amanda, then she's going to find being around little children unbearable.
So what's she going to do?
She's going to work three jobs.
Hmm. Maybe.
Maybe. That's bad.
Well, it is. And I'm not trying to say it's causal, right?
I mean, if the trauma is unprocessed, or, you know, if the trauma is simply so great that processing becomes functionally impossible.
I mean, I think that was probably the case with my mom, but that's, you know, stay on your situation.
So then the question is, if she did go through an absolutely appalling childhood, which is the only reason I can imagine that she'd run away when she was 15.
She was 15, right? I remember that, right?
I don't have an age.
I don't know what age.
But she ran away, which means that she was underage, right?
Yeah, she didn't finish high school or anything, so...
Yeah, but you can't run away from home when you're 19.
You just move out, right? I mean, those were the words she used, so yeah, I guess so.
Yeah, yeah, so she was underage, right?
And she didn't finish high school, which meant she ran away before the end of high school, right?
I guess so, yeah.
Now you're kind of pulling back on this conversation.
Interesting. Interesting.
Well... I mean, that is not something I want to think about, you know?
No, well, listen, if you want to not think about things, you don't call into the philosophy show.
I'm sorry, that's the deal, right?
You can hang up any time you want, but this is where we think about things.
I'm sorry, but, you know, this is the gig, right?
Yeah, no, no, I don't. You don't go to the doctor and say, I don't want no stinking medicine.
Anyway. Oh, yeah, you got me, so.
Okay, so, and it'll lead to a good place, I promise you, so.
Okay. So she ran away from home when she was underage, which to me is extreme abuse, almost always of a sexual abuse nature.
Unprocessed trauma. She still thinks she was the best mom, even though she worked three jobs, right?
Mm-hmm. And you can survive in youth up to early, maybe middle, middle age with unprocessed trauma.
And a lot of people do.
A lot of people do.
You know, my mom had so much energy when we were young, she would get us up at 5 o'clock in the morning to go down to the local tennis court and climb over the fence because she thought they charged too much to play tennis.
Right. She was like, I don't want to say manic, but she, man, she was, she had lots of energy.
She, you know, and then...
I think mid to late 40s, man, it all just, she just caved in.
Right, so you can keep this stuff, you can keep this energy going, and maybe you, when you met her, right, she was like in the, still able to coast on all that, but then, you know, it cracks.
Yeah, I mean, she's cracked.
I don't know how in-depth she's thinking, but I think she's just sort of She's just acting more than thinking.
Right. So her delusions are around protection, right?
Yes. And that means that she doesn't feel safe.
She herself doesn't feel safe.
I mean, she has nothing unsafe in her life right now.
She's the safest she's ever been.
No, she's not. No, I mean, you can sort of...
Who cares about the externalities, right?
It doesn't matter, right? I mean, what matters is what's going on internally, right?
She doesn't feel safe. So my guess is something like this.
A lot of unprocessed trauma, probably from sexual abuse early in life, and enough to run away from home, right?
So... She was very busy.
She got three jobs.
She got kids. Oh, yeah.
She's very, very busy. And she uses that workaholism to keep the demons at bay, right?
Right. But they're always following you.
I mean, they don't tire, right?
The past is not... Get stitches.
It doesn't run out of wind.
It doesn't get too much lactic acid in its muscles and fall over.
The past is relentless. It doesn't stop.
It doesn't slow. It'll pace you for a while.
Like the devil himself. It'll pace you, but the past will get you, man.
If you don't process it, if you don't look back and deal with it, right?
And so she's got this tough girl exterior, but she's massively traumatized on the inside, right?
And she's distracting herself with life, with life, with life, right?
And then what happens is...
Her kids move out.
Her kids move out. And then what happens is...
She loses her job.
Yeah, and then she loses her job, and the past catches up.
Yeah. And then she becomes obsessed with the need for psychological protection.
And, yeah, I bet she's doing spells on that, too.
I mean, I wouldn't doubt it. I'm sorry, say again?
I bet she's probably doing spells on that, too, to sort of, you know, clear her mind and things like that.
Well, she thinks that she and other people in her life need protection, right?
Which means that she feels that she's in a sense of danger.
Why does she feel she's in a sense of danger?
Because the past is unprocessed.
Right. Huh.
That's pretty brutal, though, if that's what she's really going through right now and she's not, like, facing that.
The degree of brutality, though, Amanda, is directly proportional to the degree of insanity is directly proportional to the degree of brutality.
So then, how does she...
I mean...
What happens next?
Well, that's up to you. So if what we're talking about has some validity, and of course it is just conjecture, right?
But if what we're talking about has some validity, then to me, the only thing that can be done that can really help her is to talk to her about her childhood.
Hmm. I'm not sure that's in my place, but...
Maybe, like, a psychologist? You married into the family.
Of course it's your place. Why wouldn't it be?
I don't know, I guess, because I don't really know her that well.
There's no better way to get to know someone than asking them about their childhood.
Yeah, that's true. No, you don't want to do it.
No, I don't want to do it.
Because, you know, it's going to be a bomb.
It's not good, and Who knows how that could...
But why would that harm you if she talks about her childhood?
Let's say she was sexually abused as a child.
That doesn't... I mean, you didn't do it.
It's not being done to you.
You're just being a witness to somebody else's pain, right?
Yeah, I guess if she didn't want to talk about it or something.
I don't know. No, but you don't want to talk about it.
Don't project onto her, right?
What if she doesn't want to talk about this thing that I don't want to talk about?
It's you.
You don't want to talk about it.
And the question is why?
Um, I assume that that didn't happen to you while we're talking about with regards to your mother-in-law.
Sorry, what was that? Were you sexually abused as a child?
Nope. No, I wasn't.
Okay, so it's not that, right?
Right. No, it's not that.
I don't know. It just seems weird.
Weird why? I mean, you know you're doing that with me now.
Is this weird? No.
Okay, so why is it not weird when we do it, but it's weird when you do it?
it's not my place but I know that's not the right answer there It's covering something else.
I guess it's in the past.
There's nothing I can do to help or get over that stuff right now.
What do you mean? Don't you think that listening helps people?
We're not asking to cure cancer here, right?
Just ask someone about their history and listen to what happened.
Now, listen, she may fight you like crazy, right?
She may resist and she may not want to talk and she may think you're a terrible person for bringing it up, right?
But see, that's knowledge too, right?
Because what you want to get is closure with regards to this stuff.
Because I agree with you, you cannot have a crazy person around your children.
Yeah, I can't have that.
You cannot. I mean, that's like taking them to San Francisco and asking them to eat off the sidewalk.
That is not a good thing to be doing.
So you want resolution.
So if it has to do with her childhood, and I believe that it does, which is not proof, but I believe it.
Hey, I have faith. Faith.
Yeah, yeah. If it is about her childhood and she refuses to talk about her childhood, you get closure.
Do you know why? Because she's not opening up?
She's not wanting to resolve or fix anything?
Yeah, because it won't get any better.
Okay. So by talking to her, basically just getting to know her, because that's, I mean, that's her, you know, just kind of getting to know her and her past might steer her away from witchcraft.
Well, I don't know what the purpose is other than get to know her.
And you'll get to know her no matter what happens.
Because if she does decide eventually or sooner to talk about her childhood, then you'll learn that about her.
If she simply refuses to talk about her childhood, then you know she's going to be acting out for the next 40 years.
And things are going to get worse.
And, you know, that's a tragic thing to see.
But that's, you know, closure isn't always about happiness, right?
Closure isn't always about resolution and joy and togetherness.
Closure is terminal, right?
That's the kind of closure to your medical issues.
Not the closure you want, but if that's what it is, you need to know that.
You don't waste time and energy pursuing something you can't fix.
Right. I mean, for the possibility of it working, I mean, I could definitely try that.
Might as well. I don't see anything wrong with it.
Don't necessarily want to, but, I mean, I could definitely try it.
Your enthusiasm is giving me tinnitus.
Oh, sorry. I understand. No, I understand.
Listen, who wants to do it, right?
Now, if she brought this kind of stuff up, you might be okay, but going in there to spelunk around somebody's, the root of somebody's craziness and trauma, you know, that's, you know, I wouldn't do it alone.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, have your husband in the vicinity or in the room or something like that.
Or have him do it, right? Whatever, right?
However that works out.
But, yeah, you need to know this woman's history.
You really need to know this deep history, I think.
Right. Because, you know, it's not about witchery.
And I say this, look, in full disclosure, my mom would talk about knitting people's psychic helmets to protect them from dark forces and stuff like that too, right?
She was obsessed with protection, but she was born in a war.
Of course she's obsessed with protection.
Right, yeah. You know, I read this story many years ago.
It was an award-winning story about an old grandmother from the Ukraine who loved a particular commercial where the children were hugged in warm towels, right?
Mm-hmm. And it turns out that when she was a little girl, she'd watched two of her brothers drown in an icy lake.
Ugh. God.
And you can see, I mean, I watched an interview with a woman who was probably in her 90s who was weeping copious tears about all the horrible things that the Turks did to her relatives in the Armenian genocide.
You know, the past never goes.
It never goes. You can work with it.
You can deal with it.
You can use it to a betterment.
But it's never not there.
It's never not there.
And this is why I urge people, you know, self-knowledge is pretty key.
I mean, I remember reading this great quote from a really terrifying book, The Great Gatsby.
It's absolutely a terrifying, terrifying book.
But I'll just get the quote here.
It's boats tied.
There we go. I know how to type.
Got a microphone in the way. All right.
Oh yeah, it's the last line.
Yeah, it's the last line from The Great Gatsby.
So we beat on boats against the current, born ceaselessly into the past.
So the past has come back alive for your mother-in-law.
The sense of omnipresent danger, the mystical rituals...
The thing which she thinks is connecting her with people, which is in fact isolating her, this is all from her childhood.
I guarantee it.
And she'll either have someone loving like you or your husband or both of you lead her to the truth and release her from a spell, right?
This is a spell of the past, right?
Hmm. And she needs to understand that she was not a great mother.
She may have done things that were good.
But if she thinks she was a great mother and she was working three jobs, that's a defense mechanism, right?
Generally, people are the most afraid of the truth.
Of the truth about her history.
Of the truth about why she ran away.
Of the truth about what happened to her when she ran away.
Because she might have been out of the frying pan into the fire.
It might have been a hundred times worse where she ended up than where she left.
But she couldn't stomach going back.
And then you need to figure out why you looked at this broken woman and saw a strong, independent, powerful female.
Because that's your yearning for a hero that is not materializing.
And when we want a hero and we're an adult, we'll never get one.
We'll never get the hero we needed as children.
The only thing we can do is become that hero ourselves.
Right. Yeah, no, that definitely makes sense.
I think she is afraid of the truth, and I guess over the next five years we can slowly sort of...
Nope. Nope, nope, nope.
What? No!
Over the next five years we can slowly sort of...
No! Do it now!
You're not in school?
We'll start now. You're not raising...
No, do it now! What are you waiting for, five years?
Oh my gosh, your generation in procrastination.
Good heavens. What on earth would you want to wait that long?
I don't want to wait that long.
That would be horrible.
But no, like starting now and, you know, slowly over the next five years.
No, no, but it's not going to happen that way.
Because she's either going to start opening up or she's going to react incredibly aggressively.
This is not a water-wears-away stone situation, I guarantee it.
Because if these defenses are so powerful that they've turned her into a witch, you know, the demon of the past has got its bony grip on her heart, something fierce, right?
So this is going to be resolved one way or another pretty damn quickly.
But what about her not really seeing the truth, like...
Do we just drop the bomb and say, hey, you're not seeing the truth?
No, no, no. I didn't say anything like that.
What I said was going to ask her about her childhood.
Okay. Because we don't know the truth, right?
We're theorizing. Oh, okay.
Right. We don't have any proof.
We have some evidence, but it's not beyond a reasonable doubt, right?
Okay. So you go and say, you never really want to talk about the witchery stuff.
Tell me more about your childhood.
I'm really curious. I've heard some things I'd really like to know.
Just let her talk. And then if she goes way off topic, and people do, they tend to try and car-dazzle you and hypnotize you with irrelevant details and all that.
that i mean you've heard people and you're not one of them but you've heard people on the show try and do the same thing to me and you just keep trying to bring it back okay but then what happened and what was your father like and then what happened and when did you how old were you when you ran away and where did you run to and what happened and why do you what why did why did why was it 15 not 14 or 16 was there anything that happened you know just just ask the day i was gonna say ask the damn questions then we give you orders right we just ask the questions right okay yeah that way she can sort of think through it again and
Sort of maybe re- or I guess resolve it again?
Well, she may. Or she may tell you to F off and she may say, why the hell would you want to learn about these things?
Or she might just lie through her teeth.
Oh, great. Right?
No, seriously. I mean, people have free will.
They can do a lot of things. They can do a lot of things, right?
I guess I'm going to find out.
Yes, you're going to find out. I guess you're going to find out.
And it's the kindest thing that probably anyone will ever do for her.
I hope so. Well...
I don't know if that's... Yeah, okay.
You know, Jesus confronted Satan in the wilderness, right?
You're a Christian, right?
What would Jesus do in this situation is he would confront the demons of history and try and free their grip on this woman's soul, right?
Yeah, that's... I mean, that's been kind of the idea.
We just haven't really figured out sort of an approach, you know?
But I think this sort of gives...
It gives more of a map, you know, more of a pathway on what we could do Just to sort of figure it out.
And I mean, hopefully in five years, she's not a witch.
That would be excellent.
And that's really all I had to say.
Was it a useful conversation for you, do you think?
Yeah, no, it was great.
I really, really appreciate it.
I mean, thanks. I know this is sort of a crazy situation.
I appreciate you taking it seriously as well.
Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, it was a bit funny at the beginning, but I mean, I think we all know that the heart of this goes pretty deep and dark.
So will you let me know how it goes?
Yeah, definitely. And congratulations on what sounds like a great marriage.
I wish your husband the best in law school and have kids soon.
All right. Thanks, Emil.
I appreciate it. And I look forward to your email.
All right. Sounds good.
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