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July 14, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:09:22
Help - My Ex-Girlfriend Is In My Attic!
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All right. Nick is up next.
Nick writes in and says, how does a young man who has been enlightened to the concept of liberty and self-knowledge best recuperate from a damaging romantic relationship?
Hello, Steph. Can you hear me? Yeah.
Wow. Gossip. Good.
Good. All right. Let's get some dirt.
What happened? Well, I mean, just to give you a little bit of background, my own political awakening...
I sort of started my senior year.
That's when I really truly embraced the message of liberty and freedom and I started delving into a lot of these more abstract yet applicable philosophical concepts of non-aggression and just the NAP, the golden rule.
None of this is gossip, so if you could just pass forward to the gossip stuff, let's get to the romantic stuff.
We just did the non-aggression principle.
Yeah, okay. So if I could just fast forward then, in my senior year, I really started to socially blossom and I had always been sort of a wallflower and I never really talked to many people, didn't make too many friends. And then senior year, all of a sudden, I had women that were actually interested in me because I could hold a conversation with them without trying to narrowly avoid wetting myself because I was so nervous in the past.
But I got a girlfriend and I was super proud of myself.
I'm like, oh yeah, I'm super pro.
I'm in high school. I'm 18.
I might be able to lose my virginity, yada, yada, all these bullshit dreams and aspirations that I had.
And throughout the duration of that relationship...
I basically heard a desire to lose your virginity is aspirations, but all right, go on.
No, but I literally thought about it.
It would keep me awake at night.
Like, oh, I want to be cool. I want to do this.
I don't know. I look back on it.
It's just kind of like retardary.
Why? I'm sorry. Why is it retardary?
Why is it retardary?
I mean, your genes want to make new use, right?
Yeah, but being...
I guess you're right to an extent.
No, it's like saying, you know, the other day I didn't eat all...
No, no, but it's...
Fuck, do genes care about that, right?
The photocopier is not like, hey, that's not Shakespeare, that's your ass!
It's like, I don't care, fucking, I got ink, let's photocopy, right?
Photocopy has no opinions about whether it's something beautiful or something with a hairy butt crack.
I mean, it's just like, there's photocopy, right?
But no, look, the lust, saying it's stupid, it's like, I didn't eat all day, my hunger is stupid.
Right? I mean, it's not stupid to be hungry, and it's not stupid to have blind lusts.
I just don't distance your body.
You probably, unless your parents were two paragons of virtue, you're only usually existing because of blind lust.
Right? I mean, so you, you know, this is why it's tough to get Too mad at dysfunctional people, because if it wasn't for dysfunctional people, I wouldn't be here, right?
I mean, if it wasn't for two completely dysfunctional people who are so messed up they could have found each other by sonar across an airplane hangar full of functional people, I wouldn't be here.
I just don't want you to look at your sexuality and lust and all that by saying, well, you know, but now I live the life of the mind and I'm above all that testicular rolling ball madness.
Absolutely not. My penis is like a weather bane only pointing to the direction of the windy virtues of the women.
Right? I mean, come on.
It's okay to like tits.
Really, that is... Really important.
You know, when I was a kid, I don't know, I was like 14 or whatever, there was this girl in my high school who had, like, you know, gazongas for days.
I mean, she had, like, hospital carts and, like, old granny wheelie things just to carry those things around.
And I was like, yeah, I really want to go out with this girl, right?
And she was like, she had the personality, basically, it was like sandpaper on your spinal column.
You know, it was just like... Oh, God!
But what I felt was that I could put my head between her tits, make motorboat noises, and then I wouldn't have to hear anything she said.
That was sort of the plan with this woman.
And I was going to ask her.
People wanted to know who I was going to ask to some dance or whatever.
And I remember being in the corner of the classroom.
I want to ask so-and-so, right?
I told this story before. I want to ask so-and-so.
And everybody knew about, you know, this is a woman whose tits could circle the world and all that kind of stuff.
And why do you want to ask her out?
I'm like, her personality.
And right then she laughed literally like a braying horse.
She laughed like...
Right?
And I was like, yeah, because that personality...
But I can mute her with her boots.
So I'm just saying that...
It's not necessarily the worst thing in the world if she has a giggle like an electrified seal, right?
I mean, it's okay to just have, you know, flesh things.
And I'm not going to go act at them all, but don't say, like, that's dumb, in my opinion, because we are.
We do have, you know, the whole brain is built on top of this reptile stuff.
If you deny the reptile stuff, it's like carving out the foundation to a high tower.
The whole thing comes down. Everything's built on everything else.
Our fingers are not supposed to move individually, right?
And do you know the way it works if you want to move a finger individually?
It's really weird. What happens is, your brain tells all your fingers to move, like the base of your brain, your reptile part, says to your fingers, all move.
And then a higher part of your brain says, well, except for those fingers.
And it blocks, like it provides opposite nerve impulses to the other fingers.
It's ridiculously inefficient, but we are piled layers upon plankton.
We're layers above trilobites and single-celled organisms.
We're layers above reptiles, and I don't think it's good to always say the top layer is real humanity.
We're the entire triple-decker sandwich from the beginning of time.
I just wanted to sort of nag you about that.
I'm sorry if that was annoying. No, I appreciate that, and...
What you say is true to a great extent.
I definitely agree. But I think the reason why I might have said that I feel sort of bad for being sexually irresponsible almost immediately in the relationship that I had with this woman.
And I actually have dated her for over a year.
And I just told her that I'd like to split things off a couple of days ago.
There's your gossip. Actually, Pretty much immediately, almost after not even a month, we began doing sexually promiscuous stuff and whatnot for the first several months and this is what I really feel bad about.
Technically, if you're in a monogamous relationship, I think the promiscuity is not the right word.
But what you mean is sexually irresponsible stuff so you had sex without birth control?
Right. Precisely. And, you know...
And why? Why were you doing that?
We stopped that behavior.
No, no. Why? Why were you doing that?
Let me think. You know, it was definitely a pleasurable experience, to say the least.
And, you know, we just...
No, let's speak.
You've got to answer that question. I just had the thought that, you know, it wouldn't be an issue.
No, seriously. Look, if you told me, well, Steph, you know, I started dating a girl, and you know what really turned us on?
Russian roulette. Oh, God, that was hot.
You know, we'd get a nice Glock, and we'd load up the chambers with only one bullet.
We'd spin that thing, and we'd point it at our dicks and our vaginas, and we'd just pull the trigger.
And I just wanted to fuck the barrel end of that clock.
It was such a turn-on.
I'd be like, are you fucking kidding me?
You what? You wanted to play Russian roulette with your dick?
But unprotected sex with a fertile woman who you're not married to and who you don't love to death and trust with your life is Russian roulette.
So if you said, I'm really into Russian roulette, and I love blindfolding myself and running into traffic, and I'd be like, why?
You've got to know why you want to do that, so you stop doing it.
I know that I would never repeat the behavior with anybody else ever again, and we actually sat down and talked about it for a long time.
You're all sweating out the red spots, right?
I mean, you're all like, oh my God, I hope you get your period.
I can't believe I did for such a long time, too.
It totally is.
And listening to podcasts for five or six months at this point has really pointed that out when I listen to other people who have had similar experiences and listening to your rants that are tremendously constructive about that kind of topic and really how important it is to understand what it is that you're doing when you bring another human being into this world and the responsibilities that follow that is what… I'm sorry to interrupt.
I knew I should have said a cult revolver.
Some guy says, a Glock has a magazine.
If you put a bullet in it, it will fire every time.
Thank you. No, no, listen.
There's nothing, nothing that turns me on more than libertarian nitpickers.
You know, when I run a really hot night with my wife, what I do is do a great speech and make one tiny mistake and have her stop the great speech to correct myself.
And then I'm like, oh, fuck it, take me now.
I mean, so you people out there on the internet, you nitpickers, you're who I think of when I have sex with my wife.
Because you people turn me on more than I can possibly say.
In fact, I'm just going to come and lick this camera right now.
Okay, go ahead. Right.
I knew that.
Now I've got another piece of equipment in here suing me for sexual harassment.
Anyway, go on. I knew that it was a wildly irresponsible thing on a whole different level too because, I mean, I could analyze from a past relationship that I had with her during my sophomore year of high school that she came from a home that never had a father in it, even from her birth.
She had a terribly dysfunctional relationship and still does to this day with my mother.
Wherein, you know, it's basically a yelling war between the two that never ceases, you know, even over trivial bullshit like not doing dishes can, you know, unleash a 20 to 30 minute rant on her mother's part, which is, you know, with a wall of just agonizing, wishing for her to stop and, you know, just basically not complying with any of the incessant nagging her mother brings to her.
And I really feel bad.
She even has to put up with that, and I've tried to take her through a conversation really, really recently just prior to speaking about her childhood and how she was raised, how she was spanked.
I'm sorry, why does she have to put up with that?
Why does she have to put up with that?
She absolutely doesn't, and that's what I tried to convey to her, that basically she was staying there voluntarily and And she relayed to me that she's totally financially dependent upon her mother right now.
She's trying to get through college and she's paying out of pocket because her mother is in debt.
And she's doing a great job at it.
She's actually saved up enough.
So wait, I'm sort of confused.
First of all, you said she has to put up with it.
And then you said, well, of course she doesn't, without any reference to the prior one.
You might want to square that circle at some point, brother.
But then you say that she's totally financially dependent on her mother, but she herself is paying for her own college because her mother is in debt?
Well, right. I mean, I guess in that case...
Well, right. No, that doesn't make any sense.
Don't well write me.
What are you talking about?
How can she be totally financially dependent on someone when she's paying her own way and that person is in debt?
That's definitely a contradiction.
I didn't even catch it. I never really even considered that, but...
She totally could pay for rent and remove herself from that toxic environment.
Wait, wait, wait. Oh, my God.
Okay, you're with this woman for a year, and you never noticed this.
Yeah, I think in part because she never wants to express any desire.
Let me ask you this. Are you in a place where...
Where when you're thirsty, some guy gives you like a sippy cup with a soft straw?
No, I'm in a place where you go down to your local Wawa and get a free cup of ice water.
You know? I'm in the first world.
It's totally possible. Okay, but look, how could you not know that this woman, did she say I'm financially dependent on my mom?
She did. And then did she say, my mom is in debt and I'm paying my own way?
Yeah, and those are...
And then you followed that with, I'm horny?
Right, so, I mean...
Okay, one to ten, how pretty is she?
She's gorgeous. I mean, probably an eight.
So you don't want to contradict her because you might not have got to screw her, right?
Yeah, right. I mean, tell me if I'm wrong.
You don't want to upset her by pointing out some basic facts, right?
Right, and I did point out some basic facts to her, I think, at least the other day, about how she was raised in the The horrible abuse that her mom perpetuated against her, but that was only after building up a relationship with her for over a year and getting to that state of vulnerability where she would actually be susceptible.
At first, I ran into a huge wall of defenses.
I was suspecting that I probably would.
Listen, obviously, you were a virgin with a gorgeous woman.
You weren't going out with her a year so you could tell her the truth about her family, right?
You start off with that stuff.
You start off with, how was your childhood?
How's your family? How were you disciplined?
You start off with that stuff.
You'll wait for a year and then say, listen, I'd really like to tell you something.
You find out whether you have a voice in a relationship before you start spraying yourself around like some water blimp that's downed on a Spiky forest, right?
I mean you have to start off by knowing whether you have a voice in the relationship which means that you ask questions and you speak your mind and you think and you talk and you look for reciprocity and curiosity and the capacity to handle disagreement and the capacity to handle a challenge in values which is basically does the person have empathy, self-knowledge and A capacity to think.
Don't have to think, think, but a capacity to think.
And if you don't have that, then your relationship will fail.
And it will fail one of two ways.
Either you will break up with the woman, which is a failure, or you won't break up with the woman, which is even worse.
And you wouldn't have broken up with her or rather you'd have had this person tied to you for the next 20 years if one of your boys had made it pass the goalie and made an egg grow big with brains, right?
Right.
Yeah.
And I'm kind of glad now that I took that first option rather than the second because I know that that would have completely squashed any of my genuine ambitions of like aspiring to success in any way.
shape, or form. That would have totally fucked my life.
Yeah, all beauty wears off.
I mean, either biologically, just in terms of women getting old, or it just wears off, and you're like, you're horrible.
You're a horrible human being.
I now see beneath your skin.
I'm not saying she is a horrible human being, but I now see you beneath your skin, and oh God.
Yeah, I listened to your podcast, I don't know when it was produced, but it totally talked about that, and I just realized, I started looking at all the beautiful women that come into my job, And I thought about how my mother was beautiful when she was younger and all these other people in my life.
And then I looked at that and I recognized that that's a totally bullshit way to evaluate someone as a human being is by how pretty they are.
That is a purely genetic accident.
Well, and let me tell you something.
It's no judgment of virtue.
Oh, no. And look, there's danger in...
Beautiful women for a number of reasons.
Of course, it's heroin for our reproductive system, right?
I mean, we're looking for even features, lustrous hair, hip-to-waist ratio.
You know, we're looking for that silhouette which produces healthy mammal, right?
And so it's just something to be aware of.
It doesn't mean beautiful women are bad, but they're just...
That's sort of one aspect is that they're bad.
Like, if someone comes in and roofies your drink with heroin...
You're going to have an interesting night.
And beauty is a drug.
It literally acts upon men like a drug.
So it's like drunk driving to date a beautiful woman.
Doesn't mean you're not going to get home safely, but you really got to be paying attention.
Not that I'm ever suggesting anyone drunk driving.
But in terms of its effect on our capacity to reason, it cranks up the reptile brain and literally shuts down the neofrontal cortex.
And it's just like, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.
Baby, baby, baby, baby. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.
Sex, sex, sex, sex.
Status, status, status, status.
Right? We literally, our brains dissolve.
And that's one.
Now, the second reason why beautiful women are, and it's true for beautiful men, I don't know, but beautiful women are dangerous is because there's always some horny guy who will placate them if you won't.
So they unspine men in general.
Because if you don't tell her the bullshit that feeds her vanity, she knows there's 9,000 dicks with lizard brains attached, squidging along the road, who will also tell her any bullshit she wants to hear to feed her vanity.
And so telling the truth to beautiful women is really, it's tricky, because it's like, oh, you're not dealing me the heroin?
Well, I'm an addict. This guy's, you know, free heroin over here, so fuck you, all right?
So this is why, you know, you started to tell her the truth, or started to hold her to some standards, or started to get her, you know, to look into the Gordian Knot bitch fest she's gotten on with her mom, and suddenly she's not so pretty, right?
Because you're not feeding the vanity.
And again, I don't blame, it's just the way that it is.
So it is a real challenge.
And one other thing I wanted to say, I was just thinking about this the other day, which is...
My mom, very pretty, right?
And she stayed pretty for quite a long time.
Sleep upside down in formaldehyde with your feet hanging from a tree of evil.
That helps, right?
But she was a nine, at least.
Maybe nine and a half. And my whole life when I was a kid, when I was younger, There were guys sniffing around her, right?
Now, I knew her.
I knew who she was as a human being.
I don't have to get into the details here.
I've talked about it a number of times before, but I knew who she was.
And these guys were all like...
snuffling around her like pigs looking for black-hearted truffles, you know?
They were just snuffling...
She's snuffling around her night and day, calling her, wanting to stay over, trying to be charming, trying to be debonair, trying to be cool, trying to be suave.
It's like, she's a horrible human being.
I mean, she is a horrible human being, and I just saw this endless parade of guys snuffling around her.
And what this taught me in terms of contempt for the physical attraction to beauty can't be measured on a scale of mankind.
Maybe if there was a divinity scale for contempt, you could begin to measure it.
It's interstellar, if not intergalactic, in its breadth and depth.
The contempt that I have for the men who sniff and snort around women who are soul ugly and flesh pretty.
Because I saw these guys were parading through my house.
And, you know, they'd only try and make friends with me if that would get them in good with Mom, or rather, you know, the place that I originated from in Mom, right?
That's all they were looking for.
That's all they wanted. And I knew that, of course, because as she got older, she ceased to function, and she couldn't pull the, you know, she's like late-stage Blanche Dubois in A Streetcar Named Desire.
She couldn't pull the trick off anymore, and then no guy wanted to have anything to do with her because she got older.
And she couldn't cash it in for dates or trips abroad or she just couldn't crank the money dick, right?
And it is horrendous to see the degree to which men will put up with repulsive human characteristics for the sake of cheekbones and whatever, right?
And this is, again, I recognize that there are nice, beautiful...
My wife, I think, is absolutely gorgeous.
You know, she's physical perfection to me.
So I'm not saying that all beautiful women are somehow malicious or evil or whatever.
But with great power often comes great corruption.
Not everyone who has power is corrupt.
And beauty is power.
It's not political power.
It's biological power, which in many ways is one of the drivers for political power.
Why do men want political power?
Because power over people is high status, which gets the hypergamy of women to want to trade up to that man.
Men want to own other men and women for beautiful women, right?
Which is what happens.
Beauty is in many ways at the root of the tendency or the drive towards human ownership.
You know, you'd be a rock star, you're a movie star, you're a politician, a showbiz for ugly people, right?
And so, if you get power, then you get women.
My God! Henry Kissinger?
Henry Kissinger looks like a beluga whale boiled in fat and formaldehyde, and his power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.
I mean, he gets women to fawn all over him because he has power.
And... The pursuit of political power is as much to do with biological as it is to do with sadistic lusts.
And whoever beautiful women reject is what will not happen in the world.
Look, men have to overcome the desire for female beauty, for virtue to occur, and men have to overcome the desire to bring women resources for a peaceful society to occur, because they have to marry for virtue rather than for looks.
And when you marry for virtue, you get great moms.
And if you marry for looks, very often you will get terrible moms.
And we all know, at least I believe I've made the case pretty strongly, though these many years, that the right to productive raising of children is essential to a future society.
So when I say to men, don't go for beauty, what I'm saying is, Help the world become peaceful by choosing the best moms for your children, by choosing the best women as companions, by choosing the women who are going to watch your back, who are going to help you be virtuous, who are going to remind you of what's important, who are going to catch you up when you trip on your values, and who you can do the same thing for.
For us to be contributing to the virtue of the planet does not require that we become this big scintillating bald searchlight of virtue attempting to reach the four corners of the world.
It requires that if we want to have children, we choose great moms.
Moms who will love.
Moms who will be patient.
Moms who will reason.
Moms who will be calm and kind and loving and fun and non-aggressive.
That's the way that you build a peaceful future, is you choose a great mom for your children.
And anyone who goes on looks is not doing that.
Doesn't mean you won't get great virtue, but by God, it's pretty unlikely, right?
So, because, I mean, virtue, like any muscle, it develops in resistance.
And women who grow up beautiful, and I've seen enough and known enough to know what happens in the long run, but...
No, choose a great mom for your kid.
You will fall in love six million different ways from Sunday, watching your wife and your son and daughter play insanely silly dress-up games until they can barely breathe from giggling so hard.
I mean, what a wonderful thing to see.
What did you see with this girlfriend of yours?
You saw a woman whose template for motherhood is about as bad as it could be without your mom actually being demonic, right?
What's she going to be like as a mom?
If she's saying fundamental contradictory lies and bullshit about her own mom, if she's putting up with ridiculous levels of abuse in her relationship with her mom, what's she going to be like as a mom?
What if you got her pregnant?
How would she be with a child?
She would expose the child to this toxic grandparent, right?
Well, she had actually said that she never wanted to expose her child to her mother in any way.
But if she had actually had a kid at that point, then yeah, she would have.
And actually, she was raised predominantly through her real infancy and youth in a daycare facility.
And so she made it very clear that, you know, I know that when I have a kid, I'm going to Put them in daycare and I'm going to work and no concept of any of the knowledge of staying home.
Yeah, so she'd be a shitty mom.
And she would add to the 40% of American kids with attachment disorders and just clog up the planet with more dysfunctional broken people.
Yeah. That's fucking hard to embrace.
Choose? You're right.
Choose your girlfriend like your future child has the deciding vote.
Choose your girlfriend like your future child has the deciding vote.
The future child does not care how pretty the woman is, cares how steady, how stable, how open, how warm, how caring, how loving, how patient, how virtuous the parent is.
If you want to have kids, Think about your future child.
Think about that child waking up with colic for the fourth time at night.
And try and figure out that kid does not care how great that woman's calves look in high heels.
Doesn't care how many fucking Gucci or Hermes handbags she has.
Doesn't care how many Dolce& Gabbana shoes she has.
Doesn't care how nice her hair looks with tinted highlights.
Doesn't care how well her mascara hangs from eyelashes.
Doesn't care whether she has a pimple or not.
Doesn't care whether her belly is flat, doesn't care whether her boobs sag or not, cares whether the mother's heart is a warm, accessible, open harbor of peace and future foundation of goodness, love, intimacy, and virtue.
I want to convey something else to you.
Throughout our entire relationship, I... And listening to your podcasts and realizing more and more the kind of bullshit that I would have to put up with.
We broke up multiple times and then I explained to her, look, I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who's going to have tantrums and do all this childish BS and try to manipulate me.
And my family actually sat me down and talked to me that, you know, you're kind of being a little beta, Nick.
You're letting her...
Throw tantrums just to get her away.
And, you know, you made a habit out of letting her do that.
And so I broke up with her. You know, that's followed by a bunch of crying and apologies.
And then that behavior completely ceases.
But then I progressed further and I realized that, you know, she's not in control of other aspects of her personality.
And, you know, I tell her I want to break up with her and then, you know, crying and apologies.
And then those same behaviors cease.
And the last conversation that we had was the childhood one and immediately after I told her that I wanted to end the relationship for good she broke down started crying and now she's having conversations with her mother about her childhood and says that she's making you know really great progress and that there hasn't been yelling around the house and I I want to definitely believe that it's genuine because I've seen progress you know all the other times that I've sat her down and told her look I don't want to be in a relationship with you if you're going to exemplify these behaviors.
And she says that she's growing again.
But I think that the kind of healing process that needs to take place is one that would take a long time because she fundamentally lacks a lot of self-knowledge.
And I clearly do too.
I'm not saying I'm a paragon of perfection by any means, but...
She never once said the idea that you presented that she can be independent from her mother.
If she really wants to, she can remove herself from that toxic environment.
She just kind of wants to heal the relationship and kind of work with her mother, I guess.
So what are your thoughts on the apology immediately following the threat of divorce and actually successfully working to fix some of the behaviors?
Well, I mean, would she be a friend if she was a guy?
Would she be somebody you wish I were invested in?
If she was a man. If she was a man.
If she was a man and she had her emotional characteristics, family and history and temper and dysfunctional mom and aggression.
You said she was aggressive in your relationship and yelling.
If she was a man, would she be your friend?
Never. Then fuck her.
No, seriously.
Fuck her. Do you know what an insult you are handing out to good women around the world?
By prostrating yourself before this dysfunctional TNA instead of going out and finding a great woman.
It's so insulting.
It's literally like A lot of the guys get mad because, you know, hypergamy and the women want to trade up.
And it's like, well, they only want rich guys.
They only want tall guys. They want good-looking guys.
It's like, no.
The men, the MGTOW guys, the frustrated guys who are angry at women, no.
You're doing the same thing.
Find the woman who would be your friend if she had balls.
Who you'd be like, I want this person in my life.
She's strong, she's funny, she's insightful, she's curious, she's self-knowledgeable, she's into lifelong learning, she's wise, she makes me laugh, she's a great dancer, whatever.
But don't put two nutsacks in front of your eyeballs and thinking you're seeing virtue.
If she was a man, Would you be invested in her possible recovery from dysfunction that's only happening because you were throwing her off the bus called you?
No! That's so crazy to think about.
My brain is spinning in circles because for the longest time she's been my best friend and I've really closed myself off to a lot of other people who have been in my life.
She's your best friend? Don't cringe!
She's your what? She's been your best friend?
Literally. For the last year.
Yeah. Let me ask you this.
Let me ask you this, my friend.
Let me ask you this. Ask.
Ask away. How have your other relationships been doing while dating this woman?
I've distanced myself from...
Really all of my closest friends dropped off with a lot of people who I was very close with hanging out on a regular basis with in high school.
Why? Because I've invested so much time and energy into her.
No, come on, come on!
That's not why.
The reason... Oh my god, you've got to see this.
Oh Nick, I'm sorry to be so blunt.
I really am. But, you know, I'm happy to help someone out of a well who has...
I can't just say climb out of the well if you don't have arms.
I've got to come in and push you out, right?
The reason why she has cut you off from your friends is because your friends would tell you how crazy she is.
Right? I've thought about that.
Of course you have!
Any woman who starts to separate you from your friends is doing so because she wants you to be in her private show of crazy without anyone saying, that's a private show of crazy!
The quality of your future relationship is measured by the continuation of your existing friendships.
The quality of your future relationship with Your girlfriend is measured by the continuation of quality relationships that you already had.
Your wife, your girlfriend, the woman you meet, she wants you to have friendships in the same way that sane people welcome competition.
Insane people hate competition.
Greedy, evil, nasty, dysfunctional people, they all flock to the state.
They hate the market. Why does she want to have you focus only on her?
Why does she not want your friends seeing your relationship?
Because it's abusive!
Abuse and isolation are the same thing.
Right, and every time that we've ever, you know, broken up for those brief stints of times, you know, All the way up to a week, she's always said, you know, don't tell anyone, you know, whatever you do, because, you know, that's our business.
That's our business.
Your business? What are you, like, taking dumps on each other?
That's bullshit. Your business. I mean, what are you saying, a kinky German sex dungeon?
I mean, that's... Yeah, well, what she's basically saying is...
Don't tell people that we've broken up so that I can get back together with you, so that nobody knows about these interruptions and nobody's gonna say to you, are you kidding me?
You just broke up with this woman three times in four months?
Oh fuck, just take the band-aid off, man.
Like, stop circling the drain.
Put a bullet in it, stick it, a fork in it, turn it over, it's done.
You're right. God damn it.
Wow. You know, being blunt is so exactly what I need.
I try to give all the listeners what I think they need.
I know you can handle it.
I know you can take it. And the reason I know you can take it is I'm not telling you, A, I'm not telling you anything you don't know, and B, I'm not telling you anything that your friends and family haven't told you, like they're saying you're being the beta, blah, blah, blah, right?
But do not let women separate you from your friendships.
That having been said, if you have dysfunctional friendships, dysfunctional family relationships, a relationship with a great woman is going to put those seriously into question.
Because you just won't be able to go back to eating shit burgers when you've had sirloin.
But that's just her being a quality person.
When I finally got in my 30s, what it actually meant for someone to love me, which I didn't know.
I didn't even know that I didn't know.
When I finally understood what it was like for someone to love me, like I went back to these old relationships and it was like, you know, like, oh, yuck.
I didn't even know that I lived in a shantytown until I spent a month in a palace.
But if a dysfunctional woman is separating you from You're friends.
You know, I mean, we all know those people.
It could be men or women, but they get into relationships and they fucking teleport.
You know, it's like, shoo, shimmer, Scotty, beam me up.
They're gone, right?
And they're just like face to face in 400 count Egyptian cotton sheet sex tents.
And they're just gone, right?
You say, oh, can we get together Friday?
No.
Sally's, you know, we can do something with Sally.
Can we do something together?
No, she really likes, wants a romantic couples night.
And that's nothing, right? But it's like every time, every time, she's like, me, me, need me, I need you, I gotta...
She might as well just suck you back up the vagina and throw you in the womb again, right?
Isolated, separate, the moat, the estrogen moat has now sealed off the man.
Why, why, why is she afraid of the man having contact with other men?
Because then they're like, hey, let's switch the light on.
Whoa! Crazy town.
You probably don't even notice it because you've got your head in vagina town, but when you take your head out of vagina town, it's crazy town.
She doesn't want that view, right?
Right. Steph?
Nick?
Jasmine?
Trying to talk to him now.
You're not showing that to your family, Nick.
Wait, is that her? Are you kidding me?
Are you not, really?
Are you talking to me with her in the background, really?
Yeah. Is she listening?
Jasmine. Is there anything she wants to add?
Anything she wants to talk about?
I don't mind if she wants to come and chat with me.
She can tell me I'm full of crap or nonsense or terrible or whatever, right?
Or she can say, great! Would you like to talk to him?
Sure. She would.
Alright. One moment.
Yeah. Hello?
Was it Jasmine? Hi, Jasmine, are you on?
Yes. You sound upset.
What's up? I mean, I was just upstairs and I've been hearing all these lies about me.
Lies told by him? All these lies he's been telling me.
Yes. What's he been lying about?
Like, I mean... He showed me your video about the traumatic stuff that happens when you're a child, and I get what you were saying, but, I mean, the only traumatic thing that's even happened to me was my mother screamed at me and called me lazy.
Like, what kid hasn't that happened to?
I mean, I've gotten screamed at by my mother, but...
Well, do you want me to ask questions, or are you just going to...
Wait, wait. Do you want me to, like, ask you questions, or are you just going to tell me stuff?
Like, I mean...
Sure, what questions do you want to ask?
Well, Jasmine, how were you disciplined as a child?
Like, when you did something that your mom didn't like, what happened?
I mean, it depends what it was.
If it was, like, a bad grade or a report card, when I was, like, really little, I'd get, like, a spake and stuff.
And then when I got older, I was, like, 10 and 11 and 12.
Yeah, okay, so spanking when you were little.
Yeah, and then I'd get my phone taken away.
Okay. Well, hang on.
A lot of children have gotten spanked.
So? I mean, is that something you knew when you were a child?
It's you and your mom. We have statistical averages.
You know, when a baby is six months old and they're hungry, they don't say, well, there are starving children in India, so I shouldn't really need any boob milk, should I? Right?
They just know that they're hungry. So how old were you when you were spanked?
Do you remember? I mean, yeah, I was like six or seven.
Or seven. Were you not spanked before the age of six or seven?
Not really, and it was light.
Like, I could barely feel it.
It was just mainly the fog that felt was coming near me, but...
Jasmine, I'm afraid you have summoned my fog noise.
Yes, I'm sorry about that.
Do you want to know what it sounds like?
It sounds like...
Like, you know, the fog noises, right?
And the reason is that when you say...
I asked you if you were spanked before 6-7, and you said, not really.
And that's a yes-no thing, right?
I didn't say beaten. I didn't say were you thrown downstairs or clubbed with a harpoon or an oar.
I mean, you were spanked before six or seven, right?
I mean, I don't know the specific ages, but that's really not a big deal.
It hasn't traumatized me like Nick's saying, and I guess hearing Nick talk about our relationship and all this stuff.
Hey, hey, hey, hey.
Nick didn't say anything about you being seen.
No, I know. I heard him talking about our relationship and all this crazy stuff.
I don't know what you were saying.
No, no, but you said the spanking didn't traumatize me like Nick said.
But Nick didn't say anything about you being spanked or traumatized because of spanking, right?
So if you want to say to him, he shouldn't lie, then you should be accurate too, right?
That's fair, right? I don't mean this in a mean way, but that's not what he said.
Yeah, he said that to me, not on the station.
When he talks to me, it's a lot different than when he's saying stuff to you.
So, I mean, just hearing all this for the first time.
How often were you spanked?
Not often. That's not an answer, right?
How often were you spanked?
I mean, daily, weekly, monthly, once a year?
Why is it about... Why is it about being spanked?
The issue is me and Nick's relationship and him calling and asking for relationship advice.
It's nothing to do with my past.
Wait, how you relate to people has nothing to do with your past?
That's like saying the language I speak has nothing to do with how I was raised.
You speak English because you were raised English.
Of course it has something to do with it.
It doesn't mean it dominates or it's the only thing, but of course it has something to do with it, right?
So how often were you spanked?
And you don't have to answer anything.
I mean, you don't have to talk to me at all.
But I would appreciate it.
I mean, this is anonymous. I mean, nobody knows who you are.
But how often were you spanked?
I mean, Nick's about to show this to all of his friends and family, and they do know who I am.
And it's not fair to say him talking, saying my mother's verbally abused me for many years and all this stuff about me where everybody can know, yes, no, this isn't right.
It's not right. There's nothing right about that.
Do you want to not talk to me?
Wait. Okay.
There's a lot in what you said.
Well, first of all, Nick, if you're still there, are you going to show this to all your friends and family and say this is exactly who this is?
Yeah. He says he has.
You just told me you said you were going to show it to your family.
This is my business.
and you twisted all the words I've told you.
Okay.
I just wanted to know that part.
So is it my understanding that you don't want to answer how often you were spanked?
Do you think getting spanked is wrong?
I'm just asking you a question.
Do I think that hitting children is wrong?
Yeah, of course I do. Getting spanked?
No, getting spanked is not wrong.
You're a victim, right? That's like some guy jumps out of the alley, cracks me in the side of the head.
What the guy does is wrong.
It's not wrong for me to get hit.
I'm a victim, right? You're the victim in spanking, and yes, it's wrong to spank.
It is a violation of the non-aggression principle.
It's not self-defense.
Do you know that 30% of moms admit to hitting their babies over the last month?
80% of British moms hit their babies?
I'm not saying your mom did, but yeah, that's completely wrong.
It is damaging to the child.
It is damaging to emotional development.
It is damaging to one's relationship with authority.
And do you know what is so terrible about it?
It's that Every time you hit a child, you're not negotiating with the child.
You're not learning about the child.
If you did badly on a test, the job of the parent is to find out why, to ask questions and to take some ownership for the fact that it's the parent's job to get you ready for school.
If you have a test, it's the parent's job to make sure you know the material and to understand it and to do well on the test.
And if you fail on the test, it's not some isolated failure of yours.
It is a failure of the family system and the parents primarily, and the teachers to some degree.
But to just hit a child when the child does something you don't like, not only does it harm the child, and this has been very well documented and analyzed and understood psychologically, it's very clear.
There's almost no...
I mean, it's way clearer than smoking and lung disease, lung cancers and so on.
So yes, to hit a child is morally wrong.
And it's practically wrong, and it's bad parenting, and there's almost no parenting expert who's not a fundamentalist Christian or Jewish or Islamic parent.
There's no parenting expert that I've ever, and I've interviewed many of them on the show, I've read dozens of books, there's no parenting expert who says spanking is a good idea.
Spanking is a very bad idea, because not only does it harm the child, but it prevents The negotiation from occurring.
I have been a stay-at-home dad for five and a half years.
I have never raised my voice to my daughter, never yelled at her.
I have never hit her.
I've never threatened her.
I've never punished her.
We negotiate.
We talk reasonably. And it's beautiful.
I mean, this is... It's perfectly how it should be and she's an incredible joy to be around and we have fantastic days together and I mean, how could I hit her?
I mean, she's not here by choice.
She didn't choose me as a dad.
She didn't choose this household or this country to grow up in.
She's here by my choice and she's a prisoner of biology.
She can't get up and leave.
You know, I hit my wife, she can get up and leave me.
She can call the cops.
My daughter can't do anything.
She calls the cops and as long as I haven't punched her in the face, I'm off scot-free.
So that's sort of the brief thing around spanking.
So yes, it's not my opinion.
It is traumatic to children.
It is very difficult for children.
And you have grown up without the ability to easily and productively negotiate for your needs because that wasn't modeled and that wasn't how your mom dealt with you when you were a child.
I mean, I'm not saying she never negotiated with you, but if when push came to shove, she pulled down your panties and hit you on the butt or whatever she did...
Then you don't have that experience of negotiating your needs.
So when there's a conflict, you get very tense, right?
Your fight or flight mechanism kicks in.
You can't think straight.
You get very emotional when there's a conflict.
Because when there was a conflict with your mom, she hit you.
And she was like five times your size when you were little.
Right? I mean this with sympathy.
I'm not saying you're like a damaged goods or a bad person.
I'm saying that Let's say you were hit once a week.
And you're telling Nick he needs to leave me.
That's exactly what you're telling me.
You're telling Nick he needs to get out of this, in air quotes, toxic environment.
He needs to separate himself.
He needs to get far away from me.
Everybody in his life does.
That's exactly what you're saying.
I told him that he has to leave you?
Yes, that's what you've been telling him.
And, you know, whatever it is you're saying, he loves listening to you.
He's brainwashed and he will do whatever you tell him.
So when you tell him to leave me, I'm gone forever.
No, no, no, no, no.
I am not letting you talk. I'm not your boyfriend.
You don't get to talk to me like that.
You got no hold of me.
I'm a happily married man.
I don't care how good you look.
You do not get to talk to me like that.
I am talking to you with science and evidence and sympathy.
And then you're attacking me and saying that your boyfriend is brainwashed?
That is incredibly...
How do you get to talk to people like that?
What gives you the right to talk to?
Have I insulted you? I've been very empathetic and sympathetic towards you.
I've asked you how you're doing.
I'm asking you questions about your childhood.
I'm giving you sympathy for the effects of it.
Where do you get off talking to me like that?
And I know exactly where you get off, which is that you were raised by a woman who, when there was a conflict, she got aggressive.
And now, there's a conflict between you and I, or Nick and I, or Nick and you and I, or something like that, and you're getting aggressive, right?
And then you say to me, well, what could the past possibly have anything to do with the present?
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
This is exactly how the past has to do with the present.
This is what you were taught to do, both Like, empirically by how your mom interacted with you and intellectually, this is what you were taught to do in a conflict, was to get emotional and escalate and become aggressive, right?
So of course it has a huge effect on you.
This is as learned as the fact that we're both speaking English.
You know, just saying it seems to be only happening when I'm talking with narrow-minded or judgmental people, like...
People who only see it one way is black or white.
Hang on, hang on, hang on.
First of all, you're being narrow-minded and judgmental because I'm telling you that with sympathy that this comes from your history and you're just rejecting it all and you're the one who's being judgmental.
I've not judged you as a bad person.
In fact, I've explicitly said, I won't put up with the aggression, but I've explicitly said, you're not damaged goods, doesn't make you a bad person.
I've said you're a victim in how you were treated as a child, or to be hit by a caregiver is to be victimized.
So you're the one who's being judgmental.
You use the term brainwashed, right?
Is that not a judgmental term?
I mean, it's the truth.
Oh, so it's not judgmental if it's true.
So why would you want to be with a guy who's brainwashed?
Who's so mentally weak that he just is the influence of whoever, like me, some guy podcasting on the internet.
Why would you want him?
What's this prize of this wonderful guy whose brain is so empty that it gets filled up by whoever happens to be around?
I mean, you kind of love someone who's that susceptible and that empty-headed that they're brainwashed, right?
That's actually not true.
That's you being judgmental by saying I couldn't love somebody like that and we're not together because he is listening and taking your advice and he even has said that's why we're not together.
Wait a minute.
Sorry to interrupt you. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you said that I was telling him to break up with you, but you're not together.
Did he break up with you during the conversation?
I didn't hear that. I mean, I talked for a bit.
Maybe he muted and broke up with you during the conversation.
But how is it logically possible for me to be telling him to break up with you when you're already broken up?
We were working on things and it was going to be fine, but I knew after this conversation, I asked him, well, what if he's saying that we shouldn't be together?
And he told me if he thinks that it's not right and he tells me that, then I'm really going to look into that and it probably won't work out.
And I knew that's what she would say, something along those lines.
I didn't say you'd say it exactly.
I know you haven't said leave her forever, but I knew it would be something hinting at that in a subtle way and...
So you're just walking away from this logical contradiction with a bunch of verbiage, right?
Okay, okay. Look, I mean, if you don't want to talk to me, that's fine, but I don't particularly want to talk with you at this level, right?
I feel like I'm being attacked. No, you're attacking.
I feel like I'm being attacked. Don't you play the victim card with me, young lady.
You are the one doing the attacking.
You are using brainwashed and you are accusing me of things and you are being hostile.
Don't play the victim card with me.
Don't give me this best defense is a good offense nonsense, right?
I have not attacked you.
I've actually been very sympathetic to where you're coming from.
I'm sorry? She's left.
Yeah, well, I'm not shocked, to be honest with you.
I'm not shocked at all. I am.
So, you kind of didn't tell me she was in the room, right?
So, she's not the only one being manipulative here, right?
Well, I actually had asked her to stay in the attic, you know, because I have a really nice...
Oh, my God! You told her to stay in the attic?
What are you, Hannibal Lecter?
Get in the attic, woman!
I'm talking to another man here!
Did you tell me that she might be listening or that she might be listening in or that she was in the house?
Because I thought we were having a private conversation here, right?
I apologize, man. I expected her not to actually come in during the middle of it crying.
I expected her to respect my wish to give me the isolation so that I could speak with her afterwards.
Oh God, would you please give me a little bit more self-knowledge than that?
Come on, you needed her to hear this.
Don't give me this, I thought she would give me this.
You know how you get your space?
She's not in the house.
That's how you get your space.
I mean, do you live with the woman? No, I don't.
You don't live with her, so she's over at your house while you're broken up, when you're talking to a guy about your relationship, and you think this is accidental?
Do you think what you're doing is just an accident?
You needed me to talk to her, you needed her to listen to this, right?
Come on. I'm not blaming you, I'm not...
Yeah, that's why I was trying to...
No, that's why I tried to expose her to some of...
Your ideas in the form of video and she just actually spoke with you.
Wow. And she's complaining that you got your wish.
Like it was somehow you that facilitated.
No, no, no. She's saying that you got your wish as though it was somehow you who initialized this conversation when I weeks ago organized it with a...
Why can't I? I'm just too flabbergasted.
Michael? No, look, you needed...
Do you remember how I was saying that the women who isolate men from other men don't want to be seen for dysfunctional, right?
Now, she's not an evil person.
I'm not saying she's all dysfunctional, all that.
But in her interactions with me, there's no winning, right?
I mean, I don't know if you heard my side of it, but I think you could agree that I was curious and empathetic and blah, blah, blah, right?
Giving her the facts and saying she was a victim in this situation and so on, right?
And she was having none of it, right?
She attacked, she cried, she played the victim.
There was no connection, there was no listening on her part.
She was basically just waiting until she could say something inflammatory or insulting or whatever it was, right?
That's true. Wow.
And then when the conversation became difficult, when the conversation became difficult, in other words, when she couldn't get away with stuff that didn't make sense with me, and I wasn't attacking her or anything, right?
Then she ran away from the conversation, right?
Yeah. Yeah, I agree, because I felt like I was being attacked.
I was being attacked.
Yeah, no, now she's feeling like she's being attacked, but when she listens back, she will realize that she's the only one who was doing the attacking, and then she plays the victim card, right?
Right. This is not healthy behavior.
And, you know, I mean, obviously, lots of difficulties in history.
As I pointed out with her, I was trying to empathize with her, saying, but this is what, as far as I understood, that you got from your mom, that your mom was aggressive in terms of conflict.
And this is not someone to have a productive conversation with when there's a conflict.
She's got her full flight, my guess, right?
The full amygdala and fight-or-flight mechanism is up, the neofrontal cortex is shut down, and it's win-lose, right?
And it's say whatever you can say to win in the moment.
It's escalate, it's insult, it's reject any kind of empathy, it's blah, blah, blah, right?
Right. Holy cow, holy cow, holy cow.
There's no way to live.
How is this not visible to you?
What about your mom?
When we talk about her mom, what about your mom?
How is this not visible to you?
I mean this sympathetically.
I'm not saying it's bad or dumb or anything.
I don't know. I've been going to therapy for months and I need to definitely, absolutely bring this conversation up and drill it and meditate about it and think about it because it's I actually got sat down by my parents, like I said.
They actually told me, you know, these are big red flags.
Literally, she used the same terminology that you do because my mother is a very emotionally intelligent person who made this readily available to me.
You know, that, yeah, this is a bad course that you're going down, Nicholas, and I chose to reject it.
Right, and now you're right.
Did your parents have these kinds of interactions with the woman?
Like I just said. With her?
No, none whatsoever.
Nothing that directly, I'll say, confrontational.
Right. So look, I mean, it's up to you, right?
No, you're not evil. No, listen, if you're going to talk to her, I'm going to not talk to you.
I'm sorry. Right? Because I'm not sitting here watching you guys snatter back and forth, right?
Look, are you broken up?
I'm sorry. Are you broken up at the moment?
Yeah, we're done. Were you broken up at the beginning of this call?
Yeah. Have I brainwashed you?
Yes. Well, good.
Mission accomplished. No, you've taught me how to think.
Because that just means clean.
A wash is clean, right?
And remove the dirt and the grit, right?
But no, I mean, if you're broken up, then why...
Why is she over?
I mean, you're...
How big is your penis?
I can... Like, what?
You're a brainwashed guy, and she loves you, and she's insulting you, and she's insulting me, who's talking with you, but she...
Like, oh my God!
Anyway... I don't think we can chat particularly with...
You're obviously distracted, right?
So, I mean, I would say go chat with the fine lady and talk about whatever you want to talk about with her, but I don't think we can continue this particular conversation.
Steph, you've been tremendously helpful in so many ways.
I appreciate that. Probably not as helpful as Jasmine's been.
And thank you for taking the chance to speak with her.
Yes, I hope that you did.
Yeah, no, it's not negative.
And do tell her, like, I'm incredibly sorry.
I really am sorry that we didn't have a better conversation.
I really am.
And I can certainly understand, because I didn't know she was listening, that she would be antagonized by some of the stuff that was going on in our conversation.
I get that. I understand that.
I really am sorry that we didn't have a more productive conversation.
It certainly was not my goal to attack her or whatever.
But sometimes when people bring up uncomfortable truths, parental alter egos move in And then you feel threatened.
It's the parents who feel threatened.
It's the parental relationship that feels threatened.
But if you've ego-identified too much with the mom, it feels like you're being threatened.
And then you feel legitimate in attacking because it feels like self-defense and it feels legitimate and so on.
So I'm sorry that we didn't have a chance to chat.
If she goes to therapy, if she ever wants to call in and chat, I'm certainly happy to chat with her again.
And I really am incredibly sorry for everything that happened to her emotionally as a child that has put...
She has a make or break time in her life.
You have a choice.
You can either continue to do this stuff with the escalation and the rejection of empathy and sympathy and a lack of examination about the past and explaining things away with nonsensical things.
And using insulting terms and then playing victim.
You can do all of that and there's plenty of people who will join in that macabre dance with you and will do all of these things to reinforce it.
They're all people who will fuel this fire in your life and because you're very pretty you'll never be short of people who will want to do this silly dance with you.
But there is another kind of world out there.
There is a better world out there where you can have disagreements and conflicts with people without name calling, without escalation, without all of that sort of stuff.
And, you know, if this show can be a resource for that, I'm happy to have conversations publicly or privately if she feels that would be of use.
But I think the strong suggestion is really, really get into some kind of therapy, particularly anger management, because there's no decent person in the world who will...
Let you talk to him or her in in that fashion like it's just not not going to happen so been behaving that way all you're doing is ensuring that that sort of decent reasonable people will not be anywhere in your life and the only people who will put up with it And Nick may not be among that number anymore, are people who are either attracted to your physical beauty and willing to put up with emotional nonsense which will never last and will never be satisfying for you.
I mean, you want to be loved for who you are, not for the accidental biological whatever's, right?
But it will simply ensure that the only people who will remain in your life are people who will put up with that kind of stuff, and that won't be very satisfying, and they will enable negative behaviors on your part to the point where it may at some point be a maze you can't get out of.
So I hope that it is a positive experience in the long run, though it may be difficult at the moment.
So thank you, everyone, so much for calling into the show.
Nick, did you want to add something else?
Absolutely. I definitely will never be susceptible again.
There's absolutely no way after having this experience under my belt that I could ever possibly fall into the same mental traps.
But I was wondering if you would be willing to accept because she's asking me and I think it might be fair to give her a second.
She would like to make a closing comment of some sort.
Is that correct? Would you be willing to accept that?
No, I don't want a closing comment because if it's not a conversation that I don't want to give her a platform to vent or say anything else that's ugly or nasty.
So if it's not that she wants a conversation that I don't particularly want to expose the audience to any sort of more aggression or insults.
But yeah, do drop us a line, Nick, and let us know how it's going.
And I really do appreciate the call and I appreciate...
What Jasmine had to offer as well.
I think it was very instructive.
FDRURL.com forward slash donate if you'd like to help out the show.
I guess it was a very interesting last part of the show.
Although the first part was very good too.
Thank you everybody so much for all of your support.
I love you guys to death.
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