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July 14, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
59:31
Jealousy and Freedom (A listener couple conversation)
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Time Text
Hello. Hello. Hi, how's it going?
Oh, pretty good. There we go.
Hi.
Hi.
So, um, welcome.
I'm glad that you could make the time for the call, and I've never spoken to either of you before, right?
Right. Excellent.
Okay, good. So, as you know, or may know, I record these calls, and if you don't mind, and you'll have a chance to review them before they go out, but you will have the chance, or I'd like to at least have the opportunity to put them out as a podcast if it's going to be things that other people would find helpful.
Okay. But again, it's entirely up to you, so just if you could not use real names or whatever, that would be good.
And feel free to speak openly, because if you end up not wanting it released or you want it edited, that's totally your choice.
So speak freely, but I just sort of wanted to put that out there ahead of time.
Okay. All right, so what is...
What is... what?
What is up? Oh, what is up?
Okay. Well, a couple of weeks ago...
I guess this is where we can start.
I saw Adam, and he's just walking with some...
Oh. Sorry.
You know what? Just use first names.
That'll be easier, and disguise your accents.
No, I'm kidding. Just use first names.
That'll be fine. Okay, well, I saw Adam, and he's just walking with some girl after class, and...
What a slut. I know!
And then, I don't know, I felt really, like, insecure, I guess.
Which, it didn't make a lot of sense to me, because, I mean, he wasn't really doing anything, so...
Right, so the girl wasn't topless.
Right. Did he have pants on?
Yeah. Okay.
No, it's always good to know.
It's always good to know. And they weren't, like, they were walking side by side.
He wasn't doing the salsa or carrying her in some dirty dancing position, is that right?
Yeah. Yeah. Good.
Okay, so it's good to get the facts, because if any of those things were occurring, then I may be a little bit more like it's not crazy for you to think that.
Okay. So, how long have you guys been going out?
A couple of years.
And has...
Let's just call it jealousy, although we don't know, but just for the sake of convenience, has jealousy been an issue in your relationship before?
Yeah, it has. And has there been any objective circumstances which would...
Read on Adam's part.
Like, Adam, have you been inappropriate or touchy-grabby with stewardesses or waitresses or stuffed animals yourself or anything like that?
Oh, no. Okay.
And is that – I'm sorry if you could just give me your name too as well.
Oh, Leslie. Leslie.
Sorry. Thanks. And Leslie, do you agree with that, that nothing objective has occurred that might cause jealousy in your relationship with Adam?
Um, no.
Okay. I'm sorry?
Like, at the very beginning of when we first started dating, one of my close friends was...
She was quite flirtatious.
And she was one of those people that...
Well, I mean, she's kind of notorious for trying to break people up.
Yeah. Well, we're not friends anymore, but...
Good. Yeah, I was going to ask about that.
Yeah. Okay.
Now, Leslie, I'm not saying that you ever dated anyone before Adam, but if you had, were there any problems with infidelity or faithlessness in prior relationships?
No. No, but I would feel jealous, or I guess is what we're calling it, with other people as well.
Right. Okay. Good to know.
And... Was there...
Did you talk to these other men about jealousy and the way that you've talked about it with Adam?
No. So you kept that to yourself, but you're sharing it with Adam?
Yes. So Adam, the purpose of this conversation is to get her to keep it to herself more?
No. Just kidding. Just kidding.
You know, that's the funny thing about intimacy.
It's like, hey, how come you didn't bother all these other guys?
It's like, well, I wasn't as close to them as I am with you.
And it's like, oh, good. I didn't trust them enough.
So, okay. Well, I appreciate that.
I know it's a tough thing to talk about.
So, Leslie, can we just look at the feelings, the feelings that you had?
So, is it you look across the street?
And Adam is walking down the street with a woman.
Is it an immediate feeling that you have or is it a slow suspicion that begins to rise?
Um... Like is it like a kick in the chest or is it like a slow unease?
No, it's like slow. Yeah.
So when you first see them walking down the street, what do you think?
Um... When I first saw him, I was just like, huh, I wonder who that is.
And then this slow, like, feeling of, like, insecurity.
And I was a little scared, I guess.
Okay. So is it fear or is it anger or is it both?
It's a little both. And the fear comes first?
Yeah, the fear comes first.
Followed by the slow burn.
And we're just talking about the emotions.
We're not coming to any conclusions yet.
We're just talking about the emotional roadmap of what happens.
So you feel initially it's kind of like, huh?
And then you feel like, ah!
And then you feel like, argh!
Right? Right, right.
Right. So we don't even need words at this point.
It's very primitive, right?
Next I'll dance the part that we need to get through.
And... So the fear is obviously that he may be playing the field, right?
And that of course would cause you great pain.
Not just of course that he was playing the field, but there's a whole destabilizing element to the relationship that occurs with jealousy, right?
And that destabilizing element is...
How long has he been lying to me?
Right, and again, I'm not saying years, obviously, but there is that feeling.
Is it kind of like an otherworldly feeling?
Because one of the things that hurts so much about infidelity is not just the act of betrayal that occurs in the moment, but it's the sense of looking back into the relationship and saying, well, how long was this going on?
Were there other times, you know, how many times did he look me in the eyes and tell me he loved me while at the same time, you know, maybe thinking of someone else?
And again, I'm not saying any of this happened.
I'm just trying to understand the fear.
Is it a fear of the immediate betrayal?
Or is it also a fear that the relationship itself has been founded on some sort of lie for some time?
It's more a fear like the relationship itself is like...
Danger, I guess. I don't know.
In danger, okay. Now, if it were true that Adam were playing the field, what would your response be in terms of the relationship?
Well, I guess I wouldn't want to be with him anymore.
So it would be a deal-breaker, right?
It would be a deal-breaker like you would say, you know, whoever this floozy is, good luck with her because you're not tapping this anymore, right?
Yeah, yeah. It's funny when guys who are 40 try to talk like teenagers, isn't it?
Funny and yet not.
So it would be the end of the relationship, right?
It would be a non-negotiated situation or a non-negotiable situation?
Yes. Okay.
Got it. Got it. Now, Adam, how aware are you of Leslie's fears in this area?
I'd say I was pretty aware.
Recently, she's been telling me about it more.
Anytime it would happen, we would have some kind of discussion about it.
Right, okay. And how often does this arise in your relationship?
Oh, there's a sigh.
Daily twice a day, five times a day.
I'm not really sure how much would you say.
Not terribly often.
Frequent enough. Every once in a while.
Yeah. Wow, is that ever like a non-answer?
I feel like I'm being referred to your political action committee or something.
How often? Would you say like once every couple of weeks?
I wouldn't say. Would you say that often?
Um... But we're not talking once every six months, right?
Right. And we're not talking five times a day.
Right. Yeah, I mean, it's frequent enough to be a problem.
Okay. It's not so frequent enough to be a problem.
It's happening all the time.
Okay. Now, Leslie, can you tell me just a little bit about your family history when you were a kid, your parents, and their relationships?
Tell me about your mutter.
Sorry. Go ahead. Where should I start?
Okay. Well, first there was a heartbeat, and it was warm and cozy.
Well, my parents have a pretty awful relationship, and I don't like them all that much.
And what is bad about their relationship?
Oh my gosh. Or should we start with what is not bad about their relationship?
There haven't been any murders yet.
They're awful communicators.
My mom's very critical, I guess.
My dad never speaks up about anything.
He just sort of numbs himself out.
And then, like, every once in a while he'll, like, get really angry because I feel like it just, like, escapes.
And then my mom, yeah, she is always, like, very, very critical and not rational at all.
Yeah. Right, okay.
And so, of course, part of your concern is that you feel that there's, with the jealousy, there's a critical element in your relationship that may not be perfectly rational as well, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Okay. And has there been any problems with infidelity in your parents' marriage?
No, but they're not intimate at all.
Like no sex? Right.
Okay, sorry, not intimate.
It's like, what, no back rubs?
They don't cry when they watch Ghost.
I mean, I just wanted to make sure I understood.
And how long have they had a non-physical relationship?
Well, I guess my dad told me my mom has never liked it, so probably always.
Sorry, your dad told you that your mom doesn't like sex?
Yes. And on what planet did he justify this as remotely appropriate?
I have no idea.
Wow. Okay.
And so do you know that they've had a sexist marriage for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, pretty much the whole thing except for you who were conceived by the Archangel Gabriel or something?
Yeah. I would assume that it's very, very rare, if ever.
I don't really know how long.
Do you remember when you were a little kid that there was any physical affection between your parents?
I remember like once or twice, but it was a very awkward feeling to me.
Right, right, right.
So you sort of mounted her leg like a schnauzer?
No, I'm just kidding. We can't get into any details.
No... Your mom kind of clings to your dad a lot, though.
I remember that happening sometimes.
Like, she'd always just tag along. When we're out in public, she'll cling to people around her.
Yeah. She did it to me, too.
Okay. Now, obviously, there's some pretty significant dysfunction in your parents' marriage, which we can just sort of note in passing as we move into your relationship in particular.
Mm-hmm. Do...
What is the level of trust?
And this is always a subjective question, but just play around with it however you feel like it.
What is the level of trust in your relationship and feelings of security, stability, that you're in it for the long haul?
You've been going out for a couple of years.
Have you talked about a permanent situation, marriage, that kind of stuff?
Well, we're both really young.
So, I mean, neither of us wants to get married for a while.
Okay. And now, sorry, by young, do you sort of mean teens or early 20s or what?
We're both in our freshman year of college.
Yeah. Okay.
Got it. Got it. All right. And you're not doing a long distance thing, are you?
No. Oh, good for you.
Okay. It's a waste of time.
But anyway, okay. So you're young.
But do you feel that when you do want to get married, do you think about it in terms of getting married to each other?
See, I'm asking all the easy questions up front.
I mean, I think it's a real possibility.
Yeah. Okay, so there's no deal breakers at the moment where you say, if this doesn't change, we just couldn't last, right?
Right. Yeah. And would it be fair to say that the issue of jealousy, if it can't get resolved, is going to be something that you're going to manage, or would it be something that would cause significant problems in the relationship?
It would cause problems.
I mean, I don't like it when it happens, and I know you don't.
So it might be a deal-breaker, and certainly if it escalated, it probably would be, right?
I mean, if it was like every week or every day, it would be unsustainable, right?
Right. Right. Okay, I got it.
I got it. And do you love each other to death?
Is there hesitancy about that?
Is there a kind of give-and-takey thing, like, I'll give you 51%, wait for you to give me 52%, then maybe I'll give you 52.5?
Or do you kind of just hurl yourself at each other and go splat?
I mean, I guess. I guess so.
It's not like a... I don't...
I mean, we like to spend time with each other.
Okay, good.
Then we don't have to follow all of my crazy metaphors.
So the relationship is good, communication is good, but there's just this issue with regards to this jealousy stuff, right?
Yeah. Okay, good.
Now, why, Leslie, does your mother think that your father stays with her, right?
I mean, no sex.
No. No communication.
Kind of clingy. So if you were to sit down with your mother, and God, maybe she's already talked to you about this, but if you were to sit down with your mother and say, Mom, why is it that you stay with Dad?
What would her answer be? Oh, sorry.
Why is it you think Dad stays with you?
Oh, God. Well, didn't they tell you once before it was like for your sake, basically?
That's what my dad told me.
I can't believe you have done to your parents, Leslie.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
What? Making them stay together.
How selfish can you be?
Think of them! Just kidding.
Sorry, go on. I have no idea what she would say.
Well, and have you listened to any of these listener conversations before?
I've listened to a few.
Now, do you know what happens when people say, I don't know?
They do know?
You absolutely know what your mom thinks.
It's just not easy to access it, but you know.
Okay. She probably doesn't know why my dad stays with her.
But she has a theory as to why he stays with her.
Because he doesn't think he deserves something good.
And that would be her conscious theory or her unconscious theory?
Like, would she consciously say to you, I'm a steaming pile of wife crap, but he doesn't believe he deserves anything better?
No, she wouldn't say that.
Right, so I'm just curious what her conscious story would be.
Her conscious story would be that they love each other and they support each other and they work together and...
Like they're a pragmatic team kind of thing?
Yeah. Okay, so it's more like a partnership than a marriage.
Well, I think she would kind of give the illusion that they have a functioning well-off marriage when that's not the case.
Does she think that she brings your father pleasure?
She always talks about how he doesn't bring her pleasure.
Right. But deep down, do you think that she brings your father pleasure?
No. Right.
Okay. Okay. So you have a template of a relationship, which is all this propaganda that is implicit and explicit that you have to work with, which is a challenge, right?
Which is that you have an example of a wife who does not bring her husband pleasure.
Now, when we're...
If you have a job, right?
And you don't feel that you're bringing your employer economic value, that's not particularly relaxing, right?
Right. Right?
Like if you're supposed to sell a hundred bucks of stuff a day and you sell like none, right?
Or something like that.
Then you feel a certain amount of stress and anxiety, right?
Mm-hmm. Now, Leslie...
Can you tell me the ways in which you bring Adam great pleasure?
I mean, we talk all the time about anything that's going on.
We have fun together.
We go out and do stuff.
I don't know. It's a fun time.
Sure. I'm sure there's more to it than fun times, though, right?
Right. Well, I mean, we talk to each other about stuff that's bothering us and like, I don't know, I feel like we're really close when it comes to discussing each other's intimate lives and thoughts and feelings and everything.
Okay. And Adam, could you just answer that question as well?
And I'm sorry to be so oblique, but there's a purpose to all of this.
But do you mind answering the question, what it is that Leslie does that brings you pleasure?
Well, I mean, basically all the things that she said.
I mean, we enjoy each other's company.
We care about each other.
And, you know, we support each other and all that.
And I think we just...
We have a really good time with each other.
I mean, I don't know. It's hard to list out this, this, this, and this, but...
You know, just...
This is sad, I guess.
No, listen, it's okay. I mean, I couldn't answer these questions when I was 18 or 19 either, so it's just stuff to think about, right?
Yeah. Okay, so, Leslie, if I were to say to you, do you think that you're the best possible person for Adam's happiness, what would you say?
I want to be. And that means that you don't think that you are, at the moment?
I guess so.
Well... Take your time, because we can't build the next bit on, I guess so, which is not a criticism, it's just a point, right?
So I don't want to lead you into a negative place, but I just sort of want to understand, because I'm going to tell you why I think you feel jealous, but I want to make sure that I'm working with your genuine experiences rather than just making stuff up.
Yeah, I would say sometimes I feel like that I'm not the best, I guess.
And in what ways do you feel that you could be...
Like, if you could snap your fingers, and obviously the jealousy thing is one, are there any other areas that you feel that you could change or be different in order to make Adam happier without turning yourself miserable or whatever?
Right. The jealousy thing, and then...
I guess...
Like, talking through things.
Like, I talk through things, but I feel like sometimes I don't know how to explain the way I'm feeling, and I wish I could do that better.
And what would the result of that be in terms of Adam's happiness?
Well, I mean... It would make things easier to talk through and to work things out.
That would make me happier.
Sorry, Adam, what makes you unhappy with the way that you guys work stuff out at the moment?
Or what could make you...
Like, what could be improved?
Well, I think...
I honestly think probably the majority of it is actually my fault because I'm kind of...
I'm hesitant to talk things through a lot of the times, and I kind of...
Well, sorry to interrupt you, but why are you hesitant to talk things through?
Because if it was a rich and positive experience to talk things through, it's not like you'd invent problems, but it also wouldn't be the end of the world to work through them, right?
Well, I don't know. Maybe hesitant is the wrong word, but I feel like I'm not very good at it.
Would you agree with that? I don't feel like I can express myself usually as well as you can at least.
I feel like you do when you get over the hesitancy.
Yeah. I mean I've improved a lot.
Yeah. I mean I do enjoy it whenever I feel like I guess we're making progress or something.
Yeah. But of course that's easy to enjoy, isn't it?
But yeah, I mean...
I guess...
I don't know, I think I kind of got sidetracked there.
What's... Yeah, I mean, just to point out what happened here, which is perfectly fine, it's just an observation that I'm not trying to pick on Leslie or anything, but the reason that I will get to why I'm asking this in a sec, but the reason to sort of ask you about where the deficiencies are in the relationship for Leslie in terms of what Leslie brings to your happiness, Adam, what you then came in with was, yes, but here's what I do that's wrong.
Mm-hmm. Right?
And I know it's not always the most comfortable thing to look at your lover and to say, you know, this could be slightly better or something like that.
But we did kind of move aside from that topic.
We kind of stepped around it a little bit there, right?
Yeah. So let's just back up for a second.
And this is not, you know, bash Leslie time.
It's just that if we can figure this out, then I think we'll have solved the problem of jealousy.
And I know that may not seem to make any sense right now.
Hopefully it will in a few minutes.
But if we could sort of go back and say...
Because Leslie was saying that there are times when she doesn't feel like she's the best woman for you.
And so we need to talk about that just so that we can work on the...
Yeah. You're telling me what I might be able to do better?
Yeah, how could she, in a perfect magical fantasy planet, what could she do that would bring you even more pleasure?
We're not talking positions or, you know, whatever, right?
But we're just talking about what she could do to bring you even more pleasure.
Well, I feel like...
I mean, like, on the one hand, something that's kind of come up in the past is I feel like...
You know, I'm a very independent person.
I feel like And, you know, sometimes I don't always want to...
Like, it's almost like if I feel like I don't want to do something just for whatever reason, that's almost like challenging our relationship in some way.
If you don't want to do something, can you give me an example?
Well, I don't know. Like, say we had...
Like, say I call him up and then...
Yeah, and if I just say, well, you know, I don't really feel like talking right now, just for whatever reason, that's somehow kind of like a...
almost like a slap in the face, almost.
Because I feel like you take it and...
Because it's not, I don't want to talk right now, it's...
I specifically don't want to talk to you right now.
Right, I can't talk right now because I have a woman over.
Or something like that. Just kidding.
Just tweaking the raw spot, you know, for funsies.
Okay, so, and of course, Leslie does have, as she mentioned earlier, a template, which again is not, it's just what we inherit, right, from our families.
She has a template called clinginess, right?
Yeah. Which is not to say you're totally clingy and defined by nothing but clinginess, but you have a template called clinginess, right, which, love it or hate it, is what we inherit, right?
Right. Right. And so when Adam says, I don't want to talk to you right now, is this a kick in the chest situation or is it just kind of a, huh, well, you bitch, or something like that?
That's more of a kick in the chest, I think.
Okay, so when he can't talk or doesn't want to talk or is busy doing something that he doesn't want to be interrupted, you feel that as a pretty significant rejection, right?
Yeah. Okay, and look, we might as well just get cards on the table, right?
Because it's a lot easier to operate when you have the right symptoms, so to speak.
And then what is your response to that?
Do you feel that that is an unjust response?
Or do you feel that he just damn well should make time for you?
I feel it's an unjust response.
I always feel...
On your part? Sorry, I wasn't clear.
On your part or his? On me.
Okay. Like, I feel guilty after I get upset that he doesn't want to talk.
Sorry. And I just want to break down that moment.
So you call him up and you say, Adam, what are you wearing?
No, you call him up and you say, hi.
And then he says, I'm sorry, I can't talk now.
I don't want to talk right now. And then you feel this kick in the chest.
And what happens typically then?
What do you say? I say, is everything okay?
What's wrong? No, I'm just kidding. Why don't you love me anymore?
Who's there? No, I'm kidding.
Yeah. And, of course, this puts Adam in a difficult position, right?
Am I right? Yes.
Because you're saying, I can't talk right now, and she's saying, what's wrong?
Yeah. Which doesn't give you the opportunity to not talk right now, right?
Yeah. So it's kind of a little bit of a trap, right?
Yeah, because sometimes what happens is then I start talking with her, even though I'm maybe not necessarily in the mood or whatever.
And then you know it's not a very good conversation.
And then the question, what's wrong, suddenly creates something that's wrong, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Right, right.
Okay, and so look, I'm going to give you one thing here, which is just an observation that I'm sure will be very helpful.
I hope will be very helpful, and then we'll actually finally, as we come up to the half-hour mark, talk about the jealousy thing, which I hope I can give you some helpful things on.
One of the things that's so, so, so essential when we're in an intimate relationship with anybody is that we not use them to manage our own anxiety.
I'm sure you've heard me drone on and on about this before, right?
Yes. So, Leslie, when you call up Adam and you feel that kick in the chest...
I'm using him to manage my anxiety by asking him what's wrong.
Wow. You said it a lot more quickly than I did, which is good.
So why don't you go on and I'm sure you understand it.
So just go on and tell me a little bit more about that.
So I guess when I call you and then you're like, I don't want to talk or you're like, I'm busy or whatever, I'll be like, well, what's wrong?
And then instead of me feeling anxious, I create something that might be wrong with us instead of within me.
Well, I think that's right. I mean, when we feel anxiety, one of two things happen.
Either we're honest, and we say...
I know this is a really terrible time, and I know that you just told me that you don't want to talk to me, but I feel really bad when this happens, and it's not because of what you're doing.
It's not because you don't ever have the right to say to me you can't talk right now or whatever, but this is sort of what I'm feeling, and your behavior, Adam, does not need to change in any way, shape, or form.
This is not a requirement for you to change.
I'm just telling you what it does to me.
So that you can understand it.
We can get it out on the table.
We can be frank about it.
Because I just feel like the horse's hoof of anxiety landed in my chest.
And the solution to this is not for you to change anything that you're doing.
I just wanted to tell you what happened.
Okay. And Adam, how would you experience that?
Well, I think that would be a lot better.
Just because... It almost seems like normally what happens is it kind of, like I said, we start talking about it, and then it just kind of, like, we don't really want to just get it out there on the table of what's really happening, I guess. And then we kind of just, it just kind of spirals downward from there.
Right, because the solution, you know, and this is, again, this is just what you've been taught, right?
And there's nothing wrong with it other than it could be handled in a way that's more enjoyable in the long run.
But basically what you do, Leslie, is you say, I feel anxious.
And now, Adam, it's your job to make me feel less anxious, to reassure me, right?
Right. Right, and that's sort of the first thing that's put forward.
The second thing that's put forward is...
I'm going to make this unpleasant for you.
Again, I'm not consciously or maliciously.
I'm going to make this unpleasant for you so that you don't do it anymore.
And not because she's mean and trying to control you.
It's just that nobody wants to feel anxiety, right?
Right. Does that make any sense?
That makes total sense.
Yeah. Right.
So this idea that we have in relationships, which...
It's wrong, but we're just taught it, so we have to work with what we're taught.
It's that if you make me feel anxious, then you need to take away that anxiety from me.
You need to reassure me.
You need to make me feel better, and you need to not do those things that make me anxious, right?
Yeah. I mean, I'm sure that a part of you, Leslie, and I'm not saying it's a dominant part of you, but I'm sure that a part of you Feels that one possible solution to jealousy is for Adam not to talk to women.
Yeah. Right?
Yeah. But you see, you have an anxiety that does not have anything to do with Adam's behavior.
And the problem is, if you try and manage your anxiety by controlling Adam's behavior, the anxiety won't go away.
It'll just be provoked by different things.
Right? So it's like, well, every time you say the word fish, I get anxious.
So don't say the word fish, right?
But then when he says the word lamp, then you get anxious.
Like, oh, well, don't say the word lamp anymore.
And then when he says the word car, you get anxious.
Like, okay, don't say the word car anymore.
Right? We all know where that ends, right?
Yeah. Which is he either says nothing, like your dad, right?
Or he exits the relationship, right?
Because he's just like, I have to have some words I can use, right?
So when we feel anxious, we either are honest about it or we try to change the situation to justify our anxiety.
And that's a weird way of putting it, but let me sort of explain that briefly.
So when he says, I don't want to talk, what happens is you feel anxious and then you say, what's wrong?
Because the only reason that he might not want to talk to you is because something's wrong, right?
Couldn't be any other reason, right?
In this world that you're in at that moment.
Yeah. He couldn't be like facing down a bear in the woods or something like that.
He absolutely is because something bad is going to happen, right?
So then you have this anxiety which you believe is being caused by his actions, which it's not.
It's just history and what you've been taught.
Right. But then what you do is you say, well, what's wrong, right?
And then you get into a fight of some kind and then you say, I knew I was right to feel anxious.
Yeah, yeah.
See, I felt there was something wrong the moment that we talked, and you said there wasn't, and as it turns out, there was.
So I create a reason to justify my anxiety when I do that?
Yeah, we're either honest about it, and we say, I feel anxious, and it's not because of what you're doing, and the solution is not for you to change what you're doing, this is just what I feel.
We either say that openly and honestly, or we manipulate the situation so that our anxiety is justified.
Because If our anxiety is not justified, then clearly it's not about the other person, it's about us.
And we have to take a different approach, which is tough, right?
Yeah. Does that ring a bell at all?
Yes, it does. So your anxiety, your fear, your anger, your whatever, gives you no right whatsoever to ask him to change.
And that's a weird thing, because we're just so used to this idea that, hey, if somebody makes me upset, they should not do that.
Yeah. Is that helpful?
Oh, yeah, it's very helpful.
Okay, so let's talk about the jealousy, and I'll put forward a thesis that I've been sort of mulling over, and you can let me know if it fits or not, alright?
Okay. Alright.
Leslie, you think that your jealousy has something to do with a lack of trust in Adam, is that right?
Whether rightly or wrongly, you feel that that's the cause of it, right?
Yes. And that's not true?
Right. Right, so what is true?
What is true? Yeah, what is...
If it's not a lack of trust in Adam that is causing your jealousy, what is it?
It's a lack of trust in myself.
Go on. I love it.
They're bright. It's a lack of trust in myself because I think I'm not good enough because that's how my parents are.
Well, I mean, that certainly could be the case in terms of how your parents are, but we'll just try and deal with your thoughts at the moment.
Okay. So you see Adam walking down the street with some woman and then you start to feel unease and you start to feel fear and you start to feel anxiety and you start to feel some elements of aggression like, geez, why does he speak to these estrogen-laced tramps or something, right? But really, of course, it is insecurity in the value that you bring to the relationship.
So, for instance, if you are the very highest producing salesperson for a particular company that you get paid $50,000 a year and you bring in $5 million worth of business, are you ever afraid of getting fired?
No. Right.
Why not? Because you're bringing a lot to the table and they need you.
Right, right, right.
That the only way you'd ever get fired is if they wanted to lose money, which businesses generally are not big fans of, right?
Right. So whenever we feel insecure in a relationship, it's because we fear that we are not bringing enough value to the relationship, right?
Right. Now, you have a template, which is people cling to each other out of pathetic, insecure, self-loathing desperation, right?
Right. Right. Now, I'm sure that that would not be in the Valentine's Day card from you to Adam, right?
Right. Thanks for being my self-hating codependent, right?
Yeah. Right.
Because, you know, you wouldn't want to put self-hating in.
That sounds insulting. So you feel that your relationship is not the same as your parents' relationship, right?
Right. But unfortunately, you have a template called, I don't bring any value to To a relationship.
And therefore I must...
Like, if we don't bring a lot of value to a relationship, what we have to do mentally is to put the other person down, right?
Does that make sense? Yeah.
Go on. Well, because then why else would they be dating?
Right. I mean, if we don't feel that we bring something to the relationship, if we build up the other person's self-confidence, they're going to find someone better, right?
So we either have to inflate our own value, which we know deep down to be a lie, or we have to say to the other person, you're such a crappy human being that I'm the best you can do.
Does that sort of make sense?
Yes. Now...
If you feel at times insecure about the value that you're bringing to the relationship, you're either honest about that or what happens?
Or I create a situation to justify my anxiety by bringing him down.
Yeah, that's right. That's right.
And you say, well, gee, I'm afraid that I'm not bringing a lot of value to the relationship.
So now it's Adam's job to reassure me that I am, right?
Right. Which is not a good thing.
It's not going to work, right?
Right. And this is why it keeps coming back, right?
Mm-hmm. Because the underlying problem that occurs, which is that you feel that...
And I'm not saying whether this is right or wrong.
I mean, this is something for you guys to discuss.
But you feel that you're not bringing as much value to the relationship as you could.
And the result of that is that you fear competition.
Yes. Right?
Yes. Now, the solution is obviously to say, I feel...
I felt this when I saw you walking down the street with the woman.
And the solution is not for you.
Do stop talking to women or, you know, whatever, right?
Yeah. But the solution is for me to examine and explore my own feelings of insecurity about what I'm bringing to the table.
Because as guys, you know, I just...
Adam, let's just talk guy to guy for a moment, right?
When a woman feels insecure, what is your first instinct?
Well, I mean, it's...
I mean, I obviously want to know why.
And it's just kind of...
I don't know. When Leslie comes to me and says she's insecure, I just don't know why initially.
I almost feel like there's no reason to be insecure.
I feel like I don't put any pressure on her for her to be insecure.
So I'm just always kind of like...
It's just kind of nebulous to me sometimes.
Well, and that's for two reasons, I would say.
One is that it's presented to you as if it has something to do with you.
Mm-hmm. Right?
Which, of course, it doesn't, right?
I mean, it's just a history. It's a template, right?
And also, one of the reasons why you may avoid the conversation of, I feel insecure, that might come from Leslie, is that the solution is generally for you to change your behavior, right?
Sorry, that seemed rather noncommittal.
I see what you mean, Leslie.
He just doesn't talk about his own feelings.
I'm just kidding.
Is the solution generally for you to change your behavior in some manner?
I would say that I'm not really sure.
Sorry, let me try taking another approach to that.
I don't want to project my feelings onto you, but generally when a woman comes to me and is feeling insecure, my first instinct is to reassure her.
Right? Does that ring a bell?
Yeah, I mean...
I mean, I usually try to make Leslie feel better when something does happen.
I mean, when she does feel insecure, I try to say, oh, you know, no...
You know, if she's feeling insecure about, you know...
The jealousy thing, I would say, you know, you have nothing to worry about.
Everything's okay. I love you.
I'm really hideous.
Yeah, yeah. Okay. I'm just kidding.
I'm just kidding. Look, I've got warts.
I've got a hump. And I have three testicles and four nipples.
So there's just no way that it's going to happen.
Sorry, I saw the photo.
But anyway, so your response or what is to some degree expected in the interaction is for you to reassure Leslie, about your devotion, your love, your loyalty, and so on, right?
Yeah. Right.
And how does that work?
Well, um...
Mixed results, I guess.
It doesn't... It doesn't always do the job.
I guess sometimes...
I mean, in the long run.
I mean, in the moment, right? It's like saying, I'm unhappy, I can take heroin.
Well, sure, it works in the moment, but...
Yeah, in the long run, it's just kind of like a...
It kind of just numbs it for a little bit.
I mean, it eventually comes back, I'd say.
Well, and if we're at a couple of weeks recurrence, it's not even eventually, right?
Yeah. Right.
Okay. So, here's a tip.
And this is going to be annoying.
I apologize in advance.
But the tip is, if what you're doing isn't working, you need to change what you're doing.
Yeah. Right?
I know that the temptation when somebody comes to you and says, I feel insecure, is to reassure them.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that's because you don't like her feeling insecure,
right? Right. But you can't manage your dislike of her being insecure by propping her up any more justly than she can ask you to change your behavior because she feels insecure, right?
Because when you both try to manage your own anxiety by altering the other person's behavior or beliefs, The underlying cause, the underlying problem does not get addressed, right?
Does this make sense?
Yeah, that's it. It sort of makes sense to me.
Tell me the part that doesn't, because I feel that it's like, yeah, in a vaguely foggy kind of way, I can see an outline, but I'm not sure what the hell it really is.
Okay, so say hypothetically Leslie comes up to me and she says, you know, I'm feeling insecure.
And I say, oh, you know, you have nothing to worry about, I love you, this and that.
Am I kind of, by saying that, am I reassuring myself?
No, you're trying to get rid of the symptom of insecurity, right?
Yeah. And you're saying that you are the cause of her insecurity.
And because you are the cause of her insecurity, you can be the solution to her insecurity by reassuring her.
Oh, okay. Right?
Yeah. But of course, if you're not the cause of her insecurity, right?
Right. Then you can't solve her insecurity, which is why it keeps coming back, right?
So by saying...
So by trying to make her secure, I'm kind of admitting that I'm the source of the insecurity.
Yeah. Yeah, or that it has something to do with you.
Right. Right. Right?
Which it doesn't.
Right? So there are weird kind of injuries that you can get where you hurt your lower back and it shows up in your hip, right?
Your hip hurts, right? Right?
Or it could be that your right thigh muscle is too weak and it shows up on your left shoulder.
There's things which occur in the body where nerves just kind of freak out and give you the wrong information.
And so if you go to a doctor who's not aware of these kinds of things, who's not like a physiotherapist or whatever, then the doctor will say, oh, your shoulder hurts?
Do these stretches, right? But he's not actually going to the root of the problem.
He's only treating a symptom, right?
And what that means is your shoulder will feel better for a little bit, but the pain will keep recurring, right?
And the doctor will keep saying, do these stretches, right?
And this can go on for years for people, right?
As it has to some degree in this area of your relationship, right?
Where you just have this kind of knee-jerk reaction, where she feels insecure, so I'm going to reassure her.
Mm-hmm. And then the problem comes back and you say, well, she feels insecure, so I'm going to reassure her.
And the problem comes back.
Do you see what I mean? Like you're dealing with the wrong muscle group, so to speak.
Yeah. You're treating a symptom rather than going to the cause.
Yeah. Yeah, I can understand that.
Okay. So, the next question is, and look, we could spend a lot of time and you guys can do all of this talking about Leslie's parents.
Are you still in contact with your parents?
Yes, I am.
Yeah. Okay.
So there we might have a course, right?
Right. Which is that you obviously stay in touch with your parents not because you like them but because they want you to, right?
Right. So, of course, you can't have a lot of self-respect about that, right?
Right. So, anyway, you guys can talk about all of that.
I don't think there's much that I need to say about that.
But the question is, at a very pragmatic and practical level, what is it that you can do to break this cycle?
There are three words in a relationship that we should use more than I love you.
Right? There are three words in a relationship that we should use more than, bring me food.
Right? Or even, I feel insecure.
Or even, roll over and put on the Girl Guide uniform.
Or whatever. That's more than three.
But there are three words that we should use which will solve this problem for you.
Would you like to know the three magic words?
Yes.
Yes.
The three magic words are tell me more.
Okay.
So how does that sit for you?
What does that activate in you, or what do you think of that?
Leslie comes up and says, I feel insecure.
Well, so I should ask her to tell me more.
I mean, I think you're right, because just to kind of go back to one situation that happened, and what I think you're right about the whole, you know, you feel like you're not bringing it to the table or whatever, because what happened is,
I was coming from calculus class or something, and so I was talking with this girl in my calculus class, and then, you know, Leslie saw, and she got upset about that, and we were talking about it, and she started saying, oh, you know, she felt insecure about it, but then she started saying, you know, I bet she doesn't get jealous when this and this and that.
And I bet she doesn't. And she would pick out some of her flaws, I guess you could say, and say, you know, I bet this girl doesn't have this flaw.
And so it's almost...
Because, I mean, it wasn't even about me or the girl at that point.
Because Leslie was basically just talking about her own flaws and why, you know, I guess why she would feel that she wasn't, you know, quote, bringing enough To the table, as you were saying.
Well, and that another girl will.
Yes. Right? So it's almost like it's a self-fulfilling.
I'm going to push you into the arms of this other girl by telling her how wonderful you, this other girl is, and how terrible I am, so to speak.
And it's like, oh, you left me for another girl, right?
I mean, it's that dense and complicated.
And without a doubt, this is stuff that goes on for you, your mother, Leslie, either consciously or unconsciously all the time, right?
It's a fear of abandonment, and that's the clinginess, right?
It's a It's a bond that is not formed with your husband, right?
Obviously, your mother is clingy because she feels that her dad, your dad, sorry, may leave her at any point, right?
And so there's this clinginess, there's an insecurity, followed by a nagging, followed by a driving him away, followed by a pursuing to grab him and bring him down, followed by a just driving him away again.
I mean, all of that stuff's going on in your parents' marriage, right?
Right. Right. So this is just the template that you have inherited, right?
And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
It's like, I'm not good enough for you.
All these other women are better for you.
I'm not good enough for you.
And then at some point she's like, you know, this is pretty high maintenance.
You know what I mean? And the way to solve that is she comes up and says, I feel insecure.
And you say... Tell me more.
Tell me more. It's not my issue, but I love you and I want to know more about what you're thinking and feeling.
It's not my job to solve it.
It's not my job to change my behavior.
It's not my job to infantilize you by saying, I'm going to come in and fix it for you because that's what happens, right?
But tell me more.
You're an adult.
You're obviously both highly, highly intelligent people and psychologically self-aware.
So tell me more, right?
Right. Yes. And how would you experience that, Leslie, if he said to you, that's interesting.
I'm all ears. Tell me more.
I think I'd like it.
I think you'd love it.
Because then what happens is you get freed up as well to talk about what is occurring for you rather than to take this solution called I must change his behavior.
Which enslaves you both, right?
Yes. I mean, enslaves is a strong word, but I think you know what I mean.
Yeah. Yeah, I really like that.
And what happens out of that is some truly, truly, truly beautiful stuff.
Like if you can stay patient with that, and Adam, you will feel the urge because we all have...
This evil white knight, right?
All guys do, right? It's like, ah, there's a damsel in distress.
I must ride in and make her feel better.
We all have that, right?
And it's an evil little part of us that is fine for when our little girls fall down on the sidewalk, but not so good when our adult lovers are having a problem, right?
But... If you can stay with that, there is an astounding level of intimacy that comes out of that.
When you don't attempt to control each other or manage each other or change each other, but when you're simply curious about each other, this is when this incredible starlit, sunlit gateway of intimacy opens up between you.
And I'm not saying you don't have this in other areas, but in this particular area, I guarantee you that if you stay with the curiosity And are patient with, don't try and control, don't try and manage, but learn about each other in this area.
You will discover some amazing things about each other.
You will also discover that you can solve this problem in a week or two.
And that it doesn't have to be for the rest of your life.
Every couple of weeks, a green-eyed monster is going to come up and, you know, ralph up some bile on your relationship.
But you can actually solve this problem in a couple of weeks.
And by that, I don't mean that all the dysfunction of your family will have had no effect on you.
But in terms of this question of jealousy coming up and throwing you guys down, you will be able to solve that.
It doesn't mean you'll never feel jealous, but you'll have a way of talking about it that is incredibly illuminating to the relationship, that brings you closer together.
See, problems do not have to separate us.
Problems can bring us closer together, right?
Yeah. As long as we are not trying to manage each other or trying to control the situation or trying to solve the problem for the other person, but simply being there as a partner, as a best friend, curiously asking the person, tell me more.
And anytime you don't know what to say, and for guys that's not necessarily the most strange sensation in the world, you just say, you know, in a vaguely fruity, quasi-British accent, tell me more.
All right. Yeah.
Curiosity is the opposite of problems, right?
I mean, it's the difference between religion and science.
Religion is all these false answers, like you think you know the answer, but it turns out that you're not controlling anything, which is, you know, with all the best intentions in the world, how you guys have been approaching this problem, right?
So you know the answer. Well, the problem is that I'm jealous, right?
And then the solution is for me to be reassured or for him to change his behavior and so on.
But... The reason that you know it's not the true answer is that the problem keeps recurring, right?
And so the true answer will completely release you.
And this is curiosity because you guys don't know exactly why she gets jealous, right?
Right. You don't know, right?
And so when we think we know and we act as if we know, it's like, well, she just feels insecure, so I'm going to reassure her.
And then the problem comes back. We have to be honest and say, we have not got the answer to this.
Because if we had the answer to this, we'd get closure on the problem.
Like if you find out what's really causing your shoulder ache, you know you're solved because your shoulder stops aching, right?
If your shoulder keeps aching, you say, well, we don't have the answer yet and we've got to keep looking.
Yeah. Does that make sense?
Yes. Okay.
That was most of what I wanted to get across.
Was it helpful for you guys?
Does this give you some stuff to work forward with?
Oh, yeah. Definitely.
I think it was very helpful. Great.
Well, obviously, I'm hugely thrilled.
I know that jealousy is a mean companion to have in a relationship, so I certainly do sympathize with that.
I totally get that you guys have the best of intentions with each other, and I massively respect that for what it's worth.
And I find that if you take this principle of curiosity, that when a problem comes up in a relationship, it's an opportunity for intimacy and knowledge about each other, not something you need to panic about and grapple down and manage, then I think you'll find that this can have an amazing effect on your relationship.
Yeah, thank you so much.
You're very, very welcome. What I'm going to do is I'm going to compile this and I will send you a copy.
I don't think you guys revealed anything particularly terrifying.
And I also think that this would be hugely helpful.
I'm trying to hit as many young couples as possible because it's far better to prevent problems than to cure them, right?
So have a listen and let me know what you think.
But I think it would be a great podcast.
Okay. All right.
Well, thank you so, so much again.
And I will talk to you guys soon.
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