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May 27, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:55:01

"I Will Kill Myself If I Don't Change!" Freedomain Call In

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	All right.
	Well, hi, everybody.
	I'm here with Stephen, who has a tale.
	Is it fair to say a tale of woe to tell?
	Well, that's, I think, the open question.
	Well, let's start the tale, and I guess we can decide as we go.
	Sure.
	Yeah.
	There's certainly woes in it and certain anxieties in it.
	I guess I put it this way.
	I would like to have a family, you know, more than anything.
	And I think that I've waited too long.
	And now I wonder if it's just too late.
	So, you know, my health and fertility are good, but, um, you know, I'm over 50, I'm 53.
	And I wonder, you know, at my age, can I responsibly or virtuously become a father?
	Um, you know, uh, I think of adoption and surrogates and oof, they just kind of make me queasy when I think about, you know, many of the topics that you bring up, brought up in your show.
	And not only that, But I'm dating a woman who's several years younger than me.
	How many?
	That's kind of a crucial point.
	Seven.
	Seven years younger than me.
	So she's too old to have kids, right?
	That, I think, is true.
	Yeah, so we've had tests and things.
	And whether it's specifically the age that is the causal factor, I think it probably is.
	But yeah, so she's too old to have kids.
	And I'm not.
	At least not biologically.
	So, you know, I mean, I could split up with her and try to find a younger woman who would have a higher fertility, but then the age gap sort of raises issues that I question.
	So I feel like there's really no good answer.
	I wish I could go back in time, you know, 10 or 15 years and sort of have a conversation with my present-day me.
	And so that's why I'd like to have this conversation, you know, sort of to serve as a bit of a warning, or maybe more than a bit of a warning, to other men and other people in your audience, so they don't get into the sort of situation that I'm in now.
	What happened with your youth that left you in this position?
	Well, I think the short answer is it flew by a lot quicker than I thought.
	But there's more to it than that.
	I think when I was, you know, in my 20s and even 30s, I really didn't feel like I was getting traction social economically.
	You know, I had some okay jobs and things, but I never really felt that I was doing something that I really wanted to do and that I could really make a solid living at.
	And I think that made me One, I feel nervous about taking on responsibilities of having a family, but also I don't think I felt that attractive as a mate.
	I don't know if I would have wanted to date me sort of feeling like, oh, I don't really have a career that I'm satisfied with and that I'm really flourishing at.
	Although from the outside, it may have looked like I was really flourishing.
	But from the inside, I knew I wasn't really doing great work or solidly into my field.
	Okay.
	I mean, were you making enough money to theoretically support a family?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I was.
	And also, I think I also started, you know, in my twenties, sort of started traveling around.
	So I was born in the States and I kind of wanted to see the world.
	So I wanted to work in different places and get in contact with my roots, which were in Europe and worked in parts of Asia.
	And I presently live in Latin America and I've been working here for about 20 years.
	And I just kind of wanted to see the world that I was born into.
	I felt that my, you know, government education really was pathetic.
	And I just had this curiosity to see the world, but also this burning desire to understand the way things worked.
	And that took me, you know, it was very interesting.
	And certainly it has made me more aware of the way things work.
	But it also took me away from that sort of off the track, let's sort of put it that way.
	Like if I had stayed in the same city and even the same country that I'd grown up in, I think I would have progressed faster in terms of career.
	I would have had that sort of security of family and friends, you know, nearby.
	And I think that that, you know, probably the next step would have been, you know, have kids, right?
	And start a family.
	It would sort of look like that's the natural course of things.
	But because I sort of left that track, um, I managed, I think, to get myself that education in a larger sense that I really wanted.
	And now that I feel like I would be a great dad and a great partner, and for many of the things that you discuss in your program, I feel like, yeah, but it took me too long to do the circuit.
	I mean, I sort of feel like Odysseus, when he traveled for 20 years and he came back and they made him king, except I came back and I was sort of too old.
	I'm so glad that people who know the story of Odysseus are not having kids.
	That bodes very well for Western civilization.
	Spoiler!
	It doesn't.
	It doesn't.
	Well, okay, so why do you think you became this wanderer?
	I've thought about that quite a bit.
	I don't think wander is quite the right word.
	But I remember as a child being very disturbed by images that I saw.
	So I grew up during the Vietnam War.
	I was a child during the Vietnam War.
	And my father had these, you know, these books called camera, they're famous.
	photographic documentaries, and they had things of, you know, World War II and the Korean War, and Vietnam War was on television at the time.
	And I was just horrified, thinking, oh my God, how can people, you know, do this to each other?
	What kind of insane world have I grown up into?
	And that really disturbed me so deeply that I think I wanted to Understand this world and see this, you know world, you know so part of the time that I worked was in Japan and it was you know, because I wanted to see these, you know people that you know 50 years ago or 60 years would have been you know, sort of my designated mortal enemy and What what what is is going on?
	and involved with that was was also getting into touch with my roots because My sorry get in touch with him My roots.
	So my grandparents emigrated to the United States from Europe, you know, about 100 years ago.
	And so there were still traces of, you know, the older culture back in, you know, through my parents.
	And so I think there was a larger just curiosity and wanting my life to be bigger and to know which way was north rather than just running like the way everybody was sort of telling me to run.
	So there was a big sense of curiosity, wanting to understand what is this world that I was born into?
	Certainly it was also true that I felt that I had a competitive advantage working outside of the US, just because I'm a native speaker of English and I could leverage that in my work and it would give me an advantage.
	And that coupled With my sort of feeling that I wasn't really, you know, in my field taking off solidly gave me, you know, some leverage and helped me, I think, in my career, at least in the short term and not in the long term because leveraging a language is, I don't think, a good way to get ahead in a long-term fashion.
	Right.
	And how was your dating life when you were younger?
	How much younger?
	Like 20s?
	Yeah.
	Um, it was good.
	I always, I mean, I had a series of fairly long term relationships, you know, at least several years each.
	Um, and I think they got progressively better as I, I think I've made better choices, uh, in women.
	And when I say better choices, I don't mean that these women were bad in the way they weren't.
	It's just, they didn't have that much in common.
	Like my first girlfriend and I, she wasn't very bright.
	Um, and, Um, at least not in the same way that I enjoy.
	And, you know, it just wasn't a good match.
	Um, and, uh, that was like during high school.
	And then later on I had a different girlfriend who, um, was very bright, but not, not at all physically active.
	And I've been very physically active.
	And so as things got on, I had a number of relationships.
	I think they were, they were good, but I don't, When I look back at them, I do say, why didn't I pick somebody that I didn't feel the certain misgivings about that I felt back then?
	Well, the answer to that is quite simple.
	You didn't pick better women because you weren't looking for a permanent relationship.
	If somebody had said to you, the next woman you pick is the woman you're going to stay with, or the woman you have to stay with for the rest of your life, Then you would have picked a better woman, right?
	You wouldn't have gone for the low-hanging fruit, so to speak.
	Yeah, that's true.
	That's absolutely true.
	And now that you say that, that's sort of interesting, because I remember my dad, my parents were married for, you know, 45 years or so, and they passed away, otherwise they probably would still be married.
	But yeah, I remember sort of my dad sort of saying, yeah, you know, date a little bit before you get married.
	He seemed to have some I wouldn't say regrets about his choice of a wife, but maybe, well, maybe some regrets.
	And I think I should, maybe he did have some not severe regrets, but sort of like, oh, you know, maybe I ran in a little quick.
	Maybe he ran in a little bit?
	What does that mean?
	Yeah, ran in a little quick.
	So maybe he... Oh, a little quick.
	Okay, a little quick.
	My mom, I believe, was his first girlfriend.
	And as it was also the case for my mom, you know, he was her first boyfriend.
	And so sometimes they, you know, they had some rough years and they kind of thought, well, you know, maybe we could have chosen somebody a little more compatible.
	Right.
	Now, when your parents were alive, Stephen, did they talk to you about, like, get serious with your dating life if you want to have kids?
	I mean, did they give you that kind of feedback when they were alive?
	No, they really didn't.
	Why?
	This sounds amazing to me.
	Why don't parents help their children settle down?
	I mean, it's weird.
	Yeah, so I'll tell you why.
	They felt that in their lives people meddled sort of a lot.
	told them, you know, sort of pressured them to have kids or pressured them to do this, that, or the other thing.
	And they did not want to pressure us to – so I have siblings as well.
	They didn't want to pressure any of the kids to do something that they didn't, you know, want to do or to feel rushed.
	Now, I look back at it and I think, OK, well, that's that's one thing, but it's different to talk about it, to talk about it factually and say, well, these are this is, you know, this is biology.
	This is the way it works.
	You know, if you want to have a mate that is more or less your age, you kind of have to have kids, you know, in this time window.
	Otherwise, you know, otherwise you're going to put yourself in a bad situation where you're either not going to have kids, which if you want kids sucks, Or you can have to pick a mate that you can have a big age difference between and you know that's God's issues as well.
	Well the other thing too that I think parents need to talk about is something like this.
	That they can say to their young men, their sons, they can say look I mean it's fine for you to date around in your twenties but you're really screwing things up for women.
	Right?
	Because women's hearts they're like Sticky tape, like the more you stick stuff to it, the less sticky they become.
	So they'll lose their bonding capacity, but more importantly, the sort of peak female attractiveness is like a dozen years, like 18 to 30, right?
	Sure.
	So you take three years of that woman's life, you've just taken 25% of her peak years, whereas for a man, you could say sort of 18 to 50, right?
	So it's 18 years as opposed to, what, 38 years?
	And that's, you know, a man has more than twice the window of a woman.
	So for every year that you take up of a woman's dating life when she's younger, it's like two years of yours.
	So you say, well, we had a four-year relationship.
	It's like that's kind of eight years for her as far as her fertility window and maximum appeal and bonding and so on goes.
	Because we used to have this sense of obligation towards women, knowing that women are different from men.
	Now, of course, there's all this propaganda that women are just like men and so on.
	It's like sperm and eggs age at different rates, right?
	Men age like wine, women age like milk.
	So, you know, if I were your father, I would have said, it's not fair for you to date a woman if you have no intention of staying with her because you're burning up her years of fertility and that's very destructive.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	And you know, that sort of conversation, I don't remember if we had it explicitly, but that certainly, um, that certainly, um, was, was present in my mind.
	And, and, you know, it was sort of interesting.
	I think also that created a connotation in my mind that if, um, I was dating a woman and we were not solidly on the road, you know, to, to, to marry that in, in a way I was, um, abusing the woman despite not lying to her or anything like that.
	Um, and, and that led me to a phase in life where I actually, I found it very freeing To go out with a woman and say, look, I'm not asking you to marry me.
	I'm not even at that hurdle right now because we've only met.
	And to have a sexual relationship that was consensual and that where she where she wasn't feel where she would say, essentially, Hey, look, you know, I am not you're not, you know, tricking me when you're not like, wasting my time, I know exactly what I'm getting into.
	That was actually very freeing, at least, at least, you know, when I was maybe in my, you know, 30s, or something like that.
	And I remember having a relationship where the woman, you know, said that.
	And that was that, that paradoxically sort of was freeing from what I felt was sort of an attitude that men are sort of evil abusers of women and we're sexual predators and things like that.
	But do you know for sure that the woman wasn't just saying that to get you into a relationship?
	I mean, so I don't know that for sure.
	Well, there are indications, though.
	I mean, I'm not asking you to be a mind reader, right?
	There are indications as to whether that may be happening, right?
	So one of the indications is that she becomes more attached as time goes on.
	Another indication is she's upset when you break up, right?
	Another indication is...
	that she starts talking more and more as you're dating about long-term plans together and so on.
	And also, you have to wonder about a woman who's just willing to burn up her 30s on casual dating if she's either lying or kind of crazy, right?
	I mean, assuming that she wants kids or that kind of possibility, because that's ridiculously irresponsible.
	It's one thing to spend $100,000 on a car when you have $10 million.
	Still stupid, but you can afford it, right?
	It's not a wise thing to spend $100,000 on a car when you have $100,001 in the bank, right?
	Sure.
	You know, I did think about that, of course, and that put me in a little bit of a bind because Um, what I wanted to do was sort of deal with woman on an equal basis where I take her, you know, um, words that as you know, her, her final sort of statement and not, not judge her words and say, Oh, you know, I know you're really lying.
	Because I'm, you know, sort of... It may not be lying, right?
	It may not be lying.
	It just may not be... An excess of self-knowledge is one way to put it, right?
	Yeah.
	You know what, though?
	I would say, if I could go back, you know, to that time, I would... So, the me today, you know, going back 20 years, talking to the me, you know, 20 years ago, I would actually say, you know what?
	If you pay attention, you don't feel comfortable doing what you're doing.
	You know that, you know, either it's a relationship that's not satisfactory to you, And then don't waste your time and find something better.
	Or, you know, that maybe she's harboring some sort of, you know, desire for a different relationship than what you want.
	And you don't feel right about that either.
	I mean, did you know, sorry to interrupt, did you know if the women in your 30s who said, hey, let's just keep it casual, do you know if they wanted kids or not?
	Some did, some didn't.
	Some had kids.
	Oh, you dated single moms?
	No, no, no.
	No, they had kids afterwards.
	Oh, okay, got it, got it.
	I'm sorry, I lost your question.
	Oh, so the women who you were dating in your 30s, some of whom said, let's keep it casual, did they want kids?
	And you said some did, some didn't.
	Yeah, that's right.
	Um, yeah, I guess I kind of got thrown off track because I didn't feel that the relationships were casual.
	Like we never had a conversation that said, Oh, let's keep it casual.
	Like, you know, these, these were monogamous relationships.
	These were, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend relationships.
	Um, it was, they were, they were not anything, you know, even close to like, you know, one night stands or anything like that.
	Right, but I mean, did the women say, hey, you know, I'm in my 30s, you know, it's the old classic thing from women, right?
	I've had my fun and now I want to settle down.
	And was there anything like that?
	You start dating these women and they say, you know, like, I'm 33, I'm 34, I want to have kids.
	So if you're not in that state of mind or that place in life, then let's not get this going at all.
	Yeah, sure.
	I think there were conversations like that that took place before we ever even, you know, started dating or even, you know, got in any way, you know, involved.
	There were relationships.
	There was one relationship.
	No, hang on.
	Sorry, I'm confused then.
	Because you said in your 30s you weren't ready to settle down.
	So if the women said, I want to have kids.
	I want to settle down.
	If you weren't ready to settle down and you told them that, then how did the relationships get off the ground?
	So not every woman said that, but so let's say I had gone out with a woman for the first time and she says, you know, I really, this is my objective.
	I really want to be, you know, married in a couple of years and I really want to have, you know, family starting, you know, now I think I would have said, well, you know, I think that that's great and good luck to you.
	And I don't, I just don't feel that that's the, you know, the, the, the track that I want right now.
	So I'm pretty sure that did that sort of conversation did happen.
	Oh, so the only relationships you had were with the women who either said they don't want kids, they did want kids, but they were willing to date a guy who at that time didn't want kids.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	- Were there women who wanted kids who dated you anyway? - Well, they didn't say that upfront, but years later they did have kids, So I, I mean, I think the facts bear out that they did want kids and ended up having them.
	And there was at least one relationship that I myself ended because I felt, this is terrible, I'm just burning up this woman's time and I don't want to marry her and so I have to let her go so that she can have kids if that's what she wants to do.
	And were you ever deeply in love with these women?
	Um, well, the one, yeah, some of them, I mean, at least, at least, yeah.
	So how many women have you dated, including like the single dates?
	I don't mean slept with, I've just been on dates with, just roughly.
	You mean, if it's just like going out for coffee, does that count?
	Yeah, yeah, a date, right.
	A date where there's potential for romance.
	I don't know, probably 50. 50?
	Yeah.
	50. 50.
	And when the relationships ended, who would generally end them?
	Well, I mean if we'd just gone out for coffee and we realized that we're... No, no, the relationships.
	I don't mean just the date.
	Oh, they've ended in different ways.
	I mean it's been probably 50-50 if I've ended it or the other person has ended it.
	So if you really loved a woman or you said you loved a... of the 50, and again I know some of them are just coffee, but of the 50 How many did you deeply love?
	Two.
	Three?
	Wow.
	So you got a four to six percent ratio of love to dating.
	We're talking like going out for coffee.
	Okay.
	Let's say then how many were monogamous relationships of a length more than a couple of weeks?
	Maybe 12, 10, probably 10.
	And Monogamous relationships, let's say 8 or 10.
	And how long would the relationships last, on average?
	Several years.
	Several years?
	Yeah.
	So, if you loved a woman and were going out with her for several years, why would it end?
	You deeply loved a woman.
	Yeah.
	Well, one relationship I really regret that it ended, that I ended it.
	At the same point, like, that's easy for me to say now, but I look back at it and I was really frustrated in the relationship.
	I just, Thought of a home with this sort of, we just didn't, she was very bright, she was very sensitive, but she was not very talkative.
	And I just, I thought the home without this dialogue, I just, Couldn't do it.
	It just seemed like, oh, this is going to be like 40 years of silence or something.
	Well, no, because you have kids and you talk about the kids, right?
	It's easy to run out of conversation if your life isn't really changing that much, right?
	Well, there were some pretty big changes.
	But I agree with you, and I wouldn't regret it if I didn't.
	Right, right.
	I mean, I actually agree.
	And you know, we could have talked, I think much more about the like, I'm sure there were things that went back into her childhood, which are reasons that she was, you know, introverted the way that she was that I never, I think, explored adequately.
	So the long short of it is, I mean, I think I would make like, a great dad and a good partner.
	And now I'm at this crosswords of like, well, yeah, but unfortunately, you know, it's a bit ambivalent because had I been, you know, 30 years, you know, 30 years old as opposed to 50, I would not, I don't think I would be as good of a dad.
	I just didn't have respect.
	Well, no, but that's, that's, that's a mixed bag, right?
	Because you can say, well, emotionally, psychologically, financially, I'm in a better place.
	But when you're in your 70s, when your kids go into high school prom, when you are 60 and your kid wants to wrestle in the pool and you're afraid of breaking a tibia, you know, like that's, there's pluses and minuses, right?
	You'll have less energy, you'll be less able to go without sleep, you'll be more physically frail, you'll be not as able to play in the play centers, like, I mean, you can look at the pluses, you know, all the things, economics, you don't just look at the visible pluses, you look at the hidden minuses, but there are a lot of minuses too.
	Absolutely.
	Not least of which is being mistaken for the grandparent.
	Yeah, that's true.
	Yeah, no, I couldn't agree with you more.
	Although I do feel that in my own childhood, what was lacking was dialogue all around.
	I mean, I look back and I'm like, why didn't nobody, you know, a conversation of five minutes You know, my girlfriend and I were talking about this the other day, how a conversation of five minutes can permanently change the way you see things for your entire life.
	Yeah.
	But these conversations just, like, where were they?
	Well, most people float around each other like asteroid belts, like never touching, just randomly circling some empty Gravity well center, never connecting, never contacting, never talking about anything important, never being honest, never revealing their thoughts and feelings, never telling people the truth about their history, never giving advice, never helping people avoid the disasters of the future, never confessing to mistakes made and lessons learned.
	I mean, we are an incredibly rich tapestry of wonderful information to others.
	And yet, in most relationships, There's nothing.
	It's worse than nothing because there's the prevention of something.
	Because if you're in a relationship where you're not talking, where things are kind of empty, that's preventing you from getting a relationship where these things can happen, where you can have connection and communication.
	So, yeah, most relationships, you know, I won't say most, a lot of relationships are actually huge barriers to people having any kind of contact or connection.
	It's kind of like that bad job.
	You know, a job that's really terrible isn't so bad.
	Like I remember I was in a way, I was a dishwasher for three days in a restaurant.
	And, you know, I'd worked some pretty rough jobs.
	And I just, I couldn't do that.
	I like, it was gross.
	It was like something out of a George Orwell docudrama.
	It was like down and out in Paris and London, something like that, being a plongeur.
	I mean, it was hard.
	It was fetid.
	The water was scalding.
	It was gross food that you had to take care of.
	It was slippery.
	And it really felt like I was in some sort of steam aired waterlogged hell escape.
	And I remember like, I'm like, no, I'm not, like, I'll go hungry rather than take this.
	So that job wasn't so bad.
	It's the job where you can just kind of get by and you can get along and there's a little bit of progress and it keeps you just complacent enough to not go and get the job of your dreams.
	And Yeah, that's the same thing with relationships, of course.
	And this is sort of what you're talking about.
	It's good enough to be enjoyable, but not good enough to commit to.
	And that burned up more than three decades of your life, right?
	Yeah.
	And I look back, you know, to my parents, who I think were good parents, but the conversation was lacking.
	Good parents.
	You've listened to these shows before, right?
	Oh, I certainly have.
	All right.
	Good parents help you avoid this kind of mess.
	Now, again, how long ago did your parents die?
	About a decade.
	About a decade.
	All right.
	So you were almost a quarter century into your frou-frou dating thing, right?
	And you were in your 40s.
	And you weren't settled down.
	So, don't good parents... I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but don't good parents help their children avoid these kinds of dilemmas?
	I mean, they had a quarter century to talk to you about what to look for in a woman, and it could be lessons learned, it could be, you know, but if you want to have kids, and kids are... I mean, you want to have kids, right?
	And they wanted to have kids, So they had a quarter century for a 10-minute phone call.
	That never happened.
	Never came.
	Never picked up the phone.
	Or if you were home, just sit down and say, Hey, Steven, what's going on with your dating life?
	Like, what's going on?
	You're kind of circling the drain.
	Why you keep dating these women, right?
	Why don't you find... Do you know what you want?
	And here's how to look for it, and here's how to settle down, right?
	Because you're going to get too old.
	So for me, when someone says, oh, they were good parents, it's like a 10 minute conversation, or really a 30 second conversation to just sort of ask what I've asked or comment what I've commented.
	If you've got a quarter century to have a very essential 30 second opening to a conversation and you don't take it, come on.
	You know, there were conversations.
	I feel that I pushed them away sometimes.
	But the conversations that needed to take place were much before that.
	So you're widening the time frame in which they should have had these conversations.
	That's not a defense of them, I hope, because that makes it even worse, right?
	Maybe they had 35 years.
	Maybe they had 40 years in which to have these conversations and didn't.
	Well, I didn't say they were fantastic parents.
	I said they were good parents.
	So on a scale of 1 to 10, that means 7 or something like that.
	And I cut them sort of that slack, although I recognize there's no way I would do some of the things that they did or not do some of the things that they didn't do.
	Um, but I know that, you know, my dad came from a family that, you know, beat him and, you know, hit him.
	And the answer was always no.
	It was very sort of austere.
	And, um, uh, and my mom lost her mom when she was, you know, just a child.
	So I think she was very, um, sort of needy and vulnerable in a way.
	Oh, so people are like dominoes from history.
	They have no responsibility and no choice to deal with things.
	Things just happen to you, or happen to them, and that is why they turned out the way they turned out.
	There's no free will, there's no intervention, there's no self-knowledge, there's no commitment to anything different.
	It's determinism, right?
	I criticize my parents, and pretty harshly, on the things that I think that they were wrong on, because I don't want to repeat them.
	No, but the first thing you give is explanations for their behavior to a guy who believes in free will.
	Like, well this happened, and therefore, right?
	My mom lost her mom, and my dad was beaten, and what?
	So what?
	I was beaten.
	What does that mean?
	It's not causal, and the reason I have to keep interrupting this stuff, and I'm sorry to be annoying, I'm sure I am being annoying, and maybe unjustly so, but I can't let those statements stand.
	Because this is a public con... I mean, privately, if you and I were just sort of talking at a bar or over coffee or whatever, I wouldn't let it stand.
	But because this is going to be a public conversation, I really can't let it stand.
	Because that's saying that our choices are determined by our history.
	Now, if you'd have said, well, my dad was beaten and he never dealt with it, or my mom lost her mom and she never dealt with it or never talked about it, and that's... Okay, then we have an intervention of choice between environment and outcome.
	But if you say environment leads to outcome, you know, I mean, I can't let that message go out into the world because it's false and it's actually kind of dangerous, right?
	Yeah, I take your point.
	And I'm sorry, I don't mean to interfere with your... I mean, I have sympathy for your parents, don't get me wrong, but there's a choice.
	Yes, you're right.
	There were many contradictions in sometimes the things that they would, you know, attest to believe and actually do.
	So you're right.
	I kind of lost my train of thought.
	No, okay.
	But let me ask you this.
	Do you think?
	Oh, I would, I was screaming for calm.
	I just remember being a child.
	And just the silence of the home was so sort of like, so thick, I felt like it cut it.
	And I just remember, like, sort of screaming in through my actions for often sort of self destructive actions for for attention, for conversation.
	And I think that's one of the things that has attracted me to your show so strongly.
	Absolutely.
	No, no, I mean, this is an oasis in a desert of human malcommunication.
	This is like where we talk about important shit that matters.
	You know, I mean, this is where we talk about... And a way in which people can confront me, I can confront people in a way that's not hostile or destructive, but cracking and illuminating, so to speak.
	Yes.
	As a matter of fact, to me, sort of the cracking and illuminating was maybe many years ago, like 15 years ago or so, when I started to make a little more money, I took the first thing I did was to start in psychoanalysis.
	And I mean, the most obvious thing to me was just how much I wanted to talk and explore things.
	And, you know, I have to own up to the fact that I did not cultivate that in my relationships prior to the psychoanalysis.
	But afterwards, you know, um, my present girlfriend, like one of the first things I learned that, you know, that she was, you know, in psychoanalysis and she's just such a wonder, wonderful person to talk to.
	Um, but that is so important.
	And I didn't have that in my other relationships.
	As a matter of fact, I look at the relationships and every time I felt that somebody would I roll or, or, or, sort of slander my feelings or emotions about something, or there were conversations that we couldn't have because they weren't right.
	It was just a nail in the coffin, and it would take a while for the relationship to end.
	But if we can't face things with curiosity and dialogue and dive into them, I just didn't want to be in those relationships.
	Fortunately now, I actually am really happy in the relationship that I'm in now, because I have a very Reasoning, dialoguing, intelligent partner.
	Yeah, I mean I'll sort of give you a tiny example of how early you can teach this stuff is that one of the things that I, it's sort of like Tyrone in Long Day's Journey Into Night, I'm bothered when the lights are on because You know, when we, when I was growing up and it's not, I mean, it's good to not have useless lights on, but it's not like you're setting fire to a big bucket of money.
	Right.
	But when I was a kid, of course, you know, we had to sort of feed coins into the heater to get some heat and we were cold and the coins meant something and you couldn't leave the lights on and so on.
	It was just, and now, so with my daughter, you know, she leaves lights on sometimes and I remind her and we have conversations about it.
	And I say, look, I mean, part of it's sort of my history.
	But, you know, it is, it's kind of a waste of power and it takes a lot of energy to generate that power and, and so on.
	And so, yeah, the other day, right the day after we'd had a conversation about it, she left like two lights on and I was like, okay, come on, that's kind of annoying.
	Right.
	I mean, because we have these conversations and, you know, I know she's only 10 and all that, but I.
	I said, like, I'm annoyed by it.
	I said that doesn't mean that you annoyed me or you're annoying.
	It just means that I'm annoyed.
	I'm just being honest about sort of where I am.
	I'm annoyed.
	And it could be because, you know, we sort of talked about the theories behind it.
	But if you don't have self-knowledge, It's really tough to have a conversation, because if you don't have self-knowledge, you'll just say, you know, you just really annoyed me by leaving those lights on.
	And then they may comply, OK, sorry, right?
	Or they may push back, you know, like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm ten, I can't remember everything, whatever, right?
	But if it's self-knowledge, then you have something to explore.
	And that's why I sort of push back against this dominoes of events lead to, personalities lead to, to outcomes.
	Because there's precious little to talk about if you're acting out.
	And you act out, you can't talk it out.
	And if you talk it out, you don't need to act it out.
	And so, to me, where there are relationships, where there is little communication, and that communication that there is, is inconsequential.
	You know, pass the salt, it rained today, I hope the Bruins win this weekend, and that kind of stuff, right?
	Trump's in, you know?
	And those conversations, or really conversation avoidances, are always an indication that people don't have self-knowledge.
	Because you have self-knowledge, there's a lot to explore, there's a lot to negotiate, there's growth, there's change, there's progress, there's... You know, I mean, most people's conversations are like you just watch the same movie over and over and over again.
	Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
	And you get bored, right?
	And then you get inattentive and you stop Watching the movie.
	Why?
	Because you know, I mean, the moment you know exactly what people are going to say.
	I mean, I was kind of surprised sometimes in these shows, I could be doing this for like 15 years now, close to, and I'm like, I can come up with something new.
	I can come up with something new because self-knowledge and curiosity and I read a lot and I think a lot and have lots of great conversations.
	So, where there isn't self-knowledge.
	There is very little capacity for conversation, which is why you haven't been through psychoanalysis, your girlfriend haven't been through psychoanalysis.
	You've got stuff to talk about because there's space to talk without defensiveness, without attack, without rigidity.
	Rigidity is where it is no fun.
	Rigidity is like if you've ever tried to paint a picture and your paints are really, really dry.
	You can't, right?
	I mean, rigidity is like you just can't paint a picture unless your paints are wet or at least damp.
	And so Where you guys have self-knowledge, you have communication, and that's why you pursue self-knowledge, so you can actually have interesting conversations for the rest of your life.
	And if your parents did not have self-knowledge, or weren't curious, or simply presented their emotions as conclusions about you having caused them, or whatever, well, there's nothing to talk about.
	Yes, my parents did not have self-knowledge, at least not the way that they could have, I think.
	Right.
	Now, so the question then is, sort of back to the original thing for me, which is, why did you leave?
	What were you looking for?
	Where were you going?
	And look, the fact that you traveled, I'm not criticizing that, I mean, but the motive behind it is important.
	So I think there were two motives, or many motives.
	But one, I sort of felt a lot of pressure to go, or even though it was a lot of pressure to go to medical school, become a doctor, these sorts of things.
	And that seemed very funneling in.
	In, in, in, in.
	And I really wanted to look out.
	And I sort of sensed also that what I most value is freedom.
	creation of, you know, things that people want, not a government imbued, controlled guild.
	But you didn't get freedom.
	You got freedom from consequences.
	You got freedom from negative stimuli.
	But I don't know, because you're not, you know, you weren't free to have kids, you weren't free to settle down, you weren't free to get married, so to speak, right?
	I was then, I mean, I was.
	But you're right.
	I mean, I think I... I mean, if you'd panicked in your 30s, you know, you could have kids in high school now.
	Something kept you from panicking.
	Something kept you from... And that's sort of the essence that I'm trying to get to here, right?
	So I was running from this sort of obligation, I felt, to go to medical school that I simultaneously wanted to do, but also found stifling and didn't want to do.
	Um, I, I also, I also felt this sort of strange maybe, but I also felt that, um, in closer to, to my, to my parents where they lived, I also felt kind of stultified and I really felt like, um, I couldn't, uh, I couldn't have a sex life.
	I couldn't really date very freely.
	I don't know, this is sort of an odd thing.
	I do remember I dated a woman who was the one I really regret letting get away with.
	She was not of European origin and my mom sort of took me aside and said, you know, that's not right.
	She's not of Wait, what do you mean not of European origin?
	That's a bit of an odd way to define it.
	What race was she?
	Yeah, she was Japanese.
	Of Japanese origin.
	And my mom was sort of like, well, you know, you're very curious, you like to do things differently, but you can't have kids as an experiment.
	I mean, I don't view this woman as an experiment or a curiosity.
	No, but biracial kids do often have fitting-in issues.
	They often have, where's my tribe issues.
	They may have some health issues because of whatever, right?
	So, I mean, not all, and maybe not even the majority, but people can do the research themselves.
	I've done it a while ago.
	If you're going to make the choice to have a mixed-race child, it's fine.
	It's not a violation of the non-aggression principle, of course, right?
	But it is important to know kind of what you're getting into and the effects that may be there so that you can remediate them, right?
	The effects that may be there with your child.
	Fair enough.
	I mean, I'm sure your mother didn't put it overly delicately, and I'm not sure I would agree with her, you know, your kids are an experiment kind of thing.
	I'm pretty sure I wouldn't.
	But there are issues that need to be navigated with mixed-race children.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, she later apologized and I think, okay.
	Yeah, we're still not, though, why you had to leave so much.
	So around your parents, I assume the conversations were really kind of dull, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, they didn't really flow.
	I don't know, even from my youngest days as a kid, I would like take my bicycle and I would just go, you know, to explore.
	I would go as far as I could, you know.
	Of course, because home was boring.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, school was boring, too.
	Oh, yeah.
	Well, if you've got an IQ over 85, school is boring.
	And if you have an IQ under 85, school is boring.
	Actually, school is boring for everyone.
	I remember as a child, I used to get magazine subscriptions to scientific journals and things, and I probably couldn't understand it very well, but it was interesting.
	It was thought-provoking.
	It was fascinating.
	It was this whole world out there.
	And so you're right.
	So why wasn't that also at home?
	Well, my dad worked a lot.
	He was not home.
	Like we would, uh, I remember when as a child, like my mom would wake us up.
	Oh, you with the environmental explanations.
	My God.
	It's like we didn't even have that earlier conversation.
	Why didn't we have quality conversations?
	My dad worked a lot.
	Nope.
	Nope.
	Working a lot.
	It doesn't mean that you can't have quality conversations.
	That's true.
	That is true.
	So that's interesting.
	I think we're getting closer as to why you were on the road so much.
	So if the environment causes people to have bad conversations, the further you get away from the environment, the more likely it is that you can have good conversations.
	You know what?
	I think you hit us on something.
	Because I remember as I started to travel and things, I would often sort of tell myself that this will make myself a more interesting person.
	And therefore, you know, Congress, what's the upshot of that?
	Well, conversations will be more interesting.
	Right.
	Right.
	And, you know, I thought of that making myself a more interesting person so that, you know, I would have more interesting conversations and a more interesting life.
	But also in terms of future studies, if I wanted to continue studying, well, I would be, I thought, you know, I would be more likely to be accepted because I would be a more interesting person.
	So this idea of being interesting in interesting conversations and like the interview process, whatever that happens to be, there's something there, Stephan.
	I agree.
	Right.
	Because if you say, my parents, made the choice to be boring, then you don't have to leave to be interesting.
	You can just make different choices.
	But if it's the environment that make your parents boring, well, it's a pretty big environment that you're born into, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, and there were certainly many, many interesting things in my immediate environment that I didn't, you know, need to go to the other side of the world to find interesting things.
	Although, you know, it's hard to say.
	Like, I don't want to say that anybody who leaves their environment is Again, I'm not criticizing you.
	You can go travel all you want.
	I think travel is a wonderful thing.
	As I've said before, all is permitted with self-knowledge.
	If you know why you're traveling, if you're traveling for good reasons, and if traveling and a reaction to your environment doesn't strip you.
	Great point.
	Of marriage and children.
	That's fine, right?
	You can do whatever you want.
	You should just really know why you're doing it, right?
	That's where your real freedom is.
	That's a perfect point, because I think I did not have the self-knowledge to even understand exactly what this attraction to travel is.
	Was it fleeing?
	Was it looking for adventure?
	I think you hit something really appropriate on the head when you said, yeah, well, Interesting!
	You know, make your conversations interesting.
	I mean, what is it I've said that I like so much about my girlfriend?
	You know, interesting conversations.
	Now, you're assuming that that's your Skype picture.
	Yeah.
	You have a baby face and a full head of hair, right?
	Well, that's a picture from the front.
	Are you getting a bit of monkey butt on the back?
	That's not what I call it, but yeah.
	You can now.
	It's not patented.
	So, no, you have kind of a baby face, and at least from the front, right?
	I mean, you've got more hair than me.
	I think that's fair to say, but then so does your average egg.
	That's true.
	I definitely look younger than I am.
	Right.
	And you look like you're keeping yourself relatively trim.
	You're not getting the middle-aged dough-butt muffin-top spread or anything like that, right?
	Nope, nope, nope.
	Healthy eater, workout, definitely.
	Yeah, so that's a problem, too.
	Because you're not getting the aging... I talked about this with the guy from Thailand recently.
	I heard the conversation and I spoke about it with my girlfriend.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So, because you're not getting the aging signals, right?
	Yes.
	I was just saying to my wife today, you know, we've known each other 17 years, and I said, you look better than when I first met you.
	And she said, well, you do too.
	You lost weight from when I met you and and I said yeah and you know because I was bald when you met me I mean other than a bit of salt and pepper and in the occasional beard I mean I haven't really I'm in this big null zone of like time yeah I lost my hair and nothing really has changed and even looking back at videos I was just a little bit plumper 15 years ago but not much really much has changed other than I've gotten older the resolutions gotten better but you're kind of in this time of no No time.
	There's timelessness, right?
	So that's the other question I had, which is, why didn't you panic about kids until you're 53?
	And I'm not saying you're panicking, but why didn't it arise as an issue?
	No, I started panicking a few years ago.
	Well, but not enough that you would... I mean, how long have you been dating your girlfriend?
	For four years.
	I'm sorry?
	Four years.
	Okay, and did you panic before or after you started dating her?
	Around the time I started dating her.
	Thank you.
	That's not a lot of panic then, is it?
	Right?
	I mean, if you're dating a woman in her early to mid 40s, when you're panicking about having kids, you're not panicking that much, right?
	Yeah, that's true.
	So my question is, why didn't you panic?
	Because panic would have been good.
	Like as you said, you wish you could send yourself back a message like 20 years or whatever and say, don't end up, right?
	That's what you said in your email to me.
	I can be like a warning to others like what not to do.
	So that's the other question.
	Why did you go and why didn't you panic?
	Those are the two big questions that I think if you can resolve those, you'll be at peace with whatever decision you make regarding kids.
	And if you can't, I think it's going to kind of torment you, in my opinion, right?
	So I think we're somewhere along the first one.
	Like, why did you go?
	But the second one, why didn't you panic?
	Right?
	I remember a conversation some years ago with a guy.
	I think he was living in his brother's garage or something like that.
	And he was in his, I don't know, late 40s or early 50s or something like that.
	And he's like, I don't want to panic.
	I'm like, you kind of do.
	I remember that conversation.
	You remember that one, right?
	Now would be an excellent time to panic because you're middle-aged living in a garage.
	Now's a good time to freak out and change, right?
	So I think there's two factors that sort of assuage that panic.
	One was when you hit on the head that I in, you know, apparently good physical health, and I look, you know, younger than most people my age.
	So you look at least 10 years younger.
	Yeah, yeah, probably maybe more even.
	And so that was a little bit of physical vanity.
	All right, go.
	What do you mean only 10?
	What do you mean only 10?
	Sorry.
	No, I mean, it's just what people say, you know, I mean, yeah, but yeah, that's true.
	And I think the other part is that I never quite felt, and I never was, really solidly satisfied with my career.
	And I think my attractiveness and my ability to support a family and all these things is tied in with my ability to make money and to even have an identity for family and these sorts of things.
	I think those two, one, I felt, okay, I have a little more time because, you know, I'm in good health and I look fairly young.
	And the other was, well, I've got to get my act together better in terms of a career.
	And what industry do you work in?
	So I used to work in the pharmaceutical industry and I just hated it.
	I mean, as time, you know,
	Went on I just saw so much Corruption and wait, you don't you don't like pushing questionable drugs for quasi cures for often made-up illnesses Oh, I may be overcharacterizing but I hate to say it but I did for six months and that I felt I looked in the mirror and I just I saw an old decrepit guy and and this is when I was working with a so-called antipsychotic and I I quit that job and I'm so you were you were pushing antipsychotics So, yeah.
	At the time, and as a matter of fact, what drew me to you, actually, was the conversation that you had with Thomas Satz.
	So, that's how I actually found you.
	Yeah, Thomas Satz, and also, I did think I did two interviews with Roger Whitaker, which were great as well.
	Oh, great!
	Okay.
	So, yeah.
	So, that's what actually led me to you, was your interview with Thomas Satz.
	Oh, S-A-S-Z, if I remember right, for those who want to look it up.
	Yeah, S-A-S-Z.
	Sorry, S-A-S-Z?
	S-Z-A-S-Z.
	S-Z-A-S, thank you.
	Okay, S-Z-A-S, thanks.
	Yeah, Thomas Steven Sass, his books have changed my life and which were really what led me to my, you know, present sort of ANCAP beliefs, you know, anarcho-capitalism beliefs.
	His reasoning about the myth of mental illness and freedom and personal responsibility, just fantastic.
	Okay, so we're talking about six months.
	I don't want to go off on that.
	We're talking about six months of your career.
	I assume there's a couple of book ads there that are more significant in terms of your dissatisfaction.
	So I stayed in the pharmaceutical industry for probably 15 years and worked my way up in different positions, always having misgivings about what I was doing.
	Oh, so there's something else you could have panicked on?
	Yes, absolutely.
	Oh yeah, absolutely.
	I should have panicked on that a long, long time ago.
	And I did, but I didn't see a way out.
	Oh no, no, it ain't panic unless something really radical changes.
	You don't measure panic by the emotion but by the effect, right?
	Yeah, I see.
	Okay, so you were in that industry for 15 years and then what?
	And then I left and I actually applied to medical schools, got into the medical school that I wanted and started.
	just hated it.
	I absolutely hated it.
	I actually, I actually failed biochemistry, which, for me, it's kind of, it takes an effort to fail biochemistry, by two points.
	And I just, I felt like I just couldn't do it.
	Like my subconscious... No, but what did you hate about it?
	Was it the environment, the people, the curricula?
	It was just everywhere.
	I saw the way government is destroying medicine.
	I mean, I know everything from the Flexer report and how American medicine got to the way it is.
	Oh yeah, I just saw a report.
	I can't remember.
	It was some outlandish percentage of time that the residents spend doing data entry rather than practicing medicine.
	So there was just so many things that I looked at and I was like, The very capability that makes me good at the diagnosis of pathology also makes me good at understanding the pathology of medicine in America and in the world.
	And I just, I just, I would like to say I couldn't do it, but I would think the truth is I wouldn't do it.
	And.
	And how long were you in a medical program for?
	First year, just the first year.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And then?
	And then I left and since then I haven't been working.
	And I've been very interested in the area of biotechnology and food.
	How long ago was that?
	That was three years.
	Holy Bitcoin, Batman!
	How are you living on three years?
	Well, I live very frugally and I have my savings from my previous work.
	And I've just been living with that.
	And it's not...
	Emotionally satisfying and it's not economically viable over the long term especially not how much time if you got before you Burn your last gallon Well, so I live in Latin America, so it's not too expensive but Well, that's not true in many ways it's as expensive as in the States I shouldn't say that
	I mean, if I wanted to, I could probably stay for another, you know, living the way I'm living for 10 or 15 years, but I don't want to die penniless, and I don't want to live this, you know, reducing, you know, diminishing, eclipsing life until it finally just fades out.
	Sorry to interrupt, just out of curiosity, and you don't have to tell me anything in specificity, but I'm fascinated by people's finances, so what is your burn rate per month in US dollars?
	About a thousand.
	A thousand a month?
	Maybe a little more.
	Yeah, maybe a little bit more.
	And that's all in?
	That's like, even if you want to go, I guess you can't really go on vacation or anything, so you're burning up a grand a month and you've been unemployed for three years?
	Correct.
	Yeah.
	And you could, as you say, I guess you've got some investments or whatever, you could keep chugging along like this But it's kind of like your life's over, in a way.
	You're just kind of hanging around and breathing to some degree, right?
	I would feel like I was just laying in the casket waiting to die.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Still got a pulse, not sure why.
	That would be the least satisfying thing that I could imagine.
	The world's going to hell in a handbasket.
	I'm really smart, know a lot about ethics, philosophy, morality and economics.
	And here I am going down to skip rocks by the water again today.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, I mean, I do read a lot.
	For what?
	Well, so that's a great question.
	For what?
	You're not going to educate kids?
	You're not doing online seminars?
	You're not running for office?
	You're not changing the world?
	Like, okay, I now have more books in my brain that's going to die.
	Well, so you're right on that.
	So I would like to start a podcast and whether I will or not, we'll see.
	You know, listen, listen, listen, listen.
	Yes, I'm listening.
	Here we go.
	I'm sorry.
	I'm not laughing at you.
	I'm just laughing at my life experience.
	Okay.
	If you ever want to know what people are not going to do, I want to is the best indicator.
	Somebody says, I would like to, I want to, I plan to, I'm going to.
	No.
	No, no, no.
	Because there's nothing that stopped you for the last three years or five years or ten years from doing that.
	If you've been unemployed for three years and you say, well, I'm thinking of starting a podcast, you know what I know you're not going to do?
	Start a podcast.
	And you should accept that.
	Because if you want, it's not like, it's not like kids and marriage and extended family and work, none of that's been in your way.
	And be very careful about putting these little markers out there, like, yeah, you know, my life plan is I'm gonna start a podcast one day.
	Well, if that day ain't today, it ain't gonna happen.
	What it is, is a way for you to feel like you have some sense of organization and purpose, but it's a mirage.
	It's an illusion, right?
	There's nothing could, what has stopped you?
	I always feel like I'm not ready, but yeah, okay.
	And you'll never feel ready.
	Of course you won't, right?
	I mean, it's like when people say, oh, I've always wanted to write a book.
	Hey, you know what I know you're never going to do?
	Like, I remember when I was 24, saying to a woman at a party, yeah, I really, really want to write this book on Sergei Nakaev, who was a Russian nihilist and revolutionary and he was really convincing and he was arrested by these Russian policemen and he actually convinced them to let him go by talking to them about the system in the ride to the police station or it was something like that or whatever, right?
	And she's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, right?
	Anyway, I met the same woman next year at the party and I handed her a card.
	Yeah, I wrote this book.
	It's called Revolutions.
	It's a really good book.
	I'm very pleased with it.
	I'm so very pleased with it.
	It's a novel, right?
	And so when people say I'd like to write a book or I want to write a book, it's usually a marker they won't.
	If people say This book is going to come out of me if I have to rip out my own spleen with my hands because it's offensive to me and possessed by Moloch the Antichrist or something, right?
	And so when people talk to me about what they're going to do, I know that they're telling me what they're not going to do.
	Because there's nothing that's been stopping you.
	You say, well, I'm not ready.
	Who gives a shit about being ready?
	I mean, this is not like you're scrubbing up to open up someone to take out a role like someone left in there in an appendectomy, right?
	I mean, there's nothing to stop you.
	And this idea that you have to wait to be ready, that's another, ah, there we go.
	There we go.
	Here's the theme of the call.
	Yes.
	Environment.
	You know how you get ready?
	You fucking do it.
	You do it until you get good at it.
	Yes, I hear you.
	Or if you want to practice.
	When I started doing podcasts in my car, I'd spent a lifetime practicing speeches in my head, sometimes even out loud.
	I debated, I argued, all these kinds of things.
	So if you're in a situation where you have to wait until you feel ready, then the choice is not within you to do it.
	You have to wait for this alignment of the planets called magical readiness, which never happens.
	Environment environment.
	That's why I was pushing back against the environment.
	You have chosen not to do this Yes, and I think this ties in you know, I hear the very difference between you know thinking and doing I Hear in my own, you know conversation here whether it be, you know having kids to
	Yeah, so when people say to me, like, I want to start a podcast, I'll say, well, what have you done to do that, right?
	Right, so, I mean, have you bought a microphone?
	Have you listened to your favorite podcasters and figured out how they do what it is that they do?
	Have you picked up a little camera?
	Have you, you know, whatever, right?
	Do you have a mixing board?
	Do you have, you know, have you read up on how to process audio correctly?
	Have you, you know, anything, right?
	And if it's no, it's just like, then this is just a stupid thought wandering around your head with no place to go.
	Because the way that you get things done is you incrementally commit.
	You incrementally commit to them, right?
	Oh, I want to start a podcast.
	Okay.
	Well, I'm going to watch some videos about how to podcast, right?
	Okay.
	So then you've already invested that time.
	You're an inch of the way up the mountain, right?
	Because you've already invested that time.
	And we have this fallacy of sunk costs, sometimes not always a fallacy, which is whatever you invest time into, you kind of want to do more of, right?
	Because you've already invested that time and you'll have wasted that time if you don't, right?
	So then you say, okay, well, I'm going to do some research on a good microphone to get.
	And I'm going to figure out people's good rigs or whatever it is.
	And then you order that microphone.
	Oh my gosh, now you spend a hundred bucks on a microphone.
	And if you don't podcast, your microphone's just sitting there saying, I'm lonely.
	Talk to me like a plant, right?
	Say, oh, okay, well, I'll pick up a webcam.
	I like the Logitech Brio if you're going to use a webcam.
	1080 60 and 4k and pretty good lighting and all that and so yeah or you can just you know pick up a regular old camera and oh now you have a camera!
	Now you got to hook up the audio to the camera.
	God help you if you got a USB mic but anyway right so each incremental step right okay now I'm just gonna jot down some ideas for some shows right now what what this is doing is preparing you mentally.
	The reason you're not ready is you haven't given yourself those incremental investments.
	So your brain is empirical.
	So your motivations kick in when you have made incremental investments.
	Because your deep self is always looking for, is he serious?
	Because I'm not.
	Raising myself into motion if he's not serious.
	I'm not gonna dig in and give this guy juicy creative stuff if he's not serious.
	So it's like, okay, well he's... I'm getting messages down here like we're starting a podcast.
	Okay.
	Is he serious?
	This is your deep brain, right?
	The part that's deeper even than our ego, right?
	Your deep brain is just waiting, okay?
	Anything happening?
	No.
	Okay, well I'm not gonna bother rousing myself because it's really frustrating if your deep brain rouses itself to give you all of this wonderful stuff You know, you don't cast your pills before a swine and there's no point painting a beautiful painting that you then throw into the ocean or lock in a cupboard somewhere and nobody ever sees it.
	That's really frustrating, right?
	If you want to create something of truth and something of beauty and then hide it from the world, well your deep self doesn't want to have anything to do with that because that's like having a baby and strangling it in the crib, right?
	You want to raise these things and get them out into the world!
	And so if nothing is happening incrementally in what you're doing, your deep brain is like, let's just talk.
	I'm not going to bother because it would be really painful to give him all this great stuff and have him just sit on it or never produce it.
	You've got to at least meet that halfway.
	I hear you.
	I hear you.
	So What are you going to do with your life?
	You've got another 40 years to go, man.
	Hopefully, yes.
	Well, I don't know if you're going to be hoping for it all the way if you don't get something done.
	You could be like, oh, I like that really cynical person in that illuminatingly horrible show Veep.
	The cynical old guy is like, I don't know, maybe I'll be dead by then.
	One can only hope.
	Yeah, well, certainly I I hear and I take to heart and I agree with this call for action, you know, whether, you know, in terms of, well, I have to make a decision about kids and, um, you know, my present relationship and what I think about adoption or even, you know, surrogate and things that I just don't feel comfortable with.
	But also, um, other things that I really value that I am not contributing to.
	You mean like the virtue and salvation of the world itself?
	For example, yeah.
	For example, yeah.
	Yeah, there's not much point taking a silent, hand-capped brain to the grave, right?
	Great.
	Yeah.
	I have a cure for a terrible ailment, but I'm telling no one!
	Yeah, so I guess it comes full circle, sort of this lack of conversation that I complained about so much, you know, recently about my childhood.
	I'm sort of not talking to the world.
	Well, you have no will in your life at the moment, if you don't mind me being, you know, perfectly blunt and, you know, tell me to get lost if it's too blunt.
	And this is the price of giving your parents determinism, is that you're kind of in any way the wind blows guy.
	Like, oh, you know, I'm kind of in this pharmaceutical industry.
	I don't really like it, but it's good money.
	Okay, I'll just do that.
	And then, you know, you get a sole revolt against these antipsychotics and you bomb out.
	It's like, oh, okay, I'll go to medical school.
	Oh, I hate that, you know.
	And I'll start a podcast.
	But you see, you're like a leaf in the wind, right?
	There's no strong will in your life.
	Like, I'm dating this girl.
	She's nice, but I want kids.
	And you don't have any will.
	And that's the price of giving your parents determinism.
	Because if you say to your parents, well, or you say about your parents, well, my parents were just products of their environment.
	Well, guess what?
	Your environment has no willpower in it.
	The willpower is within you, and it's versus your environment.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	You know, the natural state of the human body is obesity and decay.
	Right?
	So if you want to not be fat and brittle boned, then you've got to eat well and work out.
	You've got to will yourself against reality, against the environment.
	That's what willpower is for.
	It's to do stuff that is against the environment.
	But if you have the sense that human personality is the product of the environment, that robs you of your will.
	And so you follow what is pleasurable.
	Right?
	Like any mammal, right?
	You follow what is pleasurable.
	I enjoyed this career to some degree.
	I like dating this woman.
	Now I don't.
	So I'll break up with her.
	Oh, this woman's nice.
	I'll go date with her now.
	She doesn't like me or I don't like her.
	We'll break up.
	Right?
	Where's your will?
	Where's your ferocious dig in and make your life happen essence?
	Yeah, you hit it on the head.
	No will.
	That's it.
	Right.
	And so the natural state of life is Decay, and the natural state of life is infertility.
	Because getting married, choosing the right woman, getting married, having children, that is an act of will.
	Now, it didn't used to be the case, right?
	Before birth control and all of that, then fertility was the natural state of things and you kind of had to work pretty hard to avoid it.
	But, yeah, your cribs are as empty as your will.
	And that's why you've withdrawn from the world, which you have, right?
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Does your girlfriend want to smack you upside the head with a wet fish and say, what the hell are you doing with your life?
	I think she's done that.
	You think?
	Now, I think you'd remember if she had.
	Yeah.
	I'm trying to think, was the fish wet?
	Yeah.
	No, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	And I want to do it to myself.
	I do do it.
	Absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	What the fuck am I doing?
	What's wrong with me?
	Time's passing.
	What a waste!
	Come on!
	Yeah, but you now have three years of accumulated entropy, right?
	An object that's in motion tends to stay in motion.
	An object that's at rest tends to stay at rest.
	Or, as we used to say in the business world, if you really want to get something done, give it to the busy man.
	Don't give it to the guy who's not busy, because there's a reason he's not busy, which is nobody wants to give him stuff because he can't get it done, right?
	The busy guy is the guy everyone gets their stuff to because he gets it done!
	So you are a guy who's got now three years of accumulated inertia, and that's tough.
	That's a tough thing to dislodge, right?
	True.
	Because it's kind of comfy, right?
	No, it's not comfy.
	No, I don't agree with that.
	But no, it's more comfortable than the alternative, otherwise you would have started your podcast already.
	You know, I understand what you're saying, but there can be a certain, like, you can sort of see a storm coming and think, well, I'm not going to create a shelter because it's the path of least resistance not to create a shelter.
	But you see the storm coming, and it's not comfortable.
	All right So what does it cost you to manifest yourself in your life?
	Like what is painful about that?
	What is hard about that?
	What is what is keeping you?
	So, prostrate, what is keeping you so jelly-boned and will-less?
	In other words, there's an emotional price to waking the fuck up, shaking your head, saying, okay, I've faffed away close to half a decade, right?
	I gotta get my shit together and I gotta get moving somewhere.
	I gotta make some decisions about my life.
	What is painful about that for you?
	I think It's the same thing that attracts me to your podcast, the same thing that attracted me to Thomas Satz.
	Interesting, my slip on words.
	It's that you make yourself vulnerable for attack, to attack.
	You say things that are true and unpopular and bring severe attack down on you.
	And, you know, if you work in business, I think they would, if you still had your company, I wonder if they would have, you know, people would have shut your company down.
	Oh, you mean if I was doing this plus being an executive?
	Yes.
	Oh, yeah.
	No, this was a one-way street.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	No question.
	This was a one-way street.
	Of course.
	Yeah.
	I mean, they'd contact all the customers.
	They'd contact whoever they could.
	They did.
	Oh, yeah, absolutely.
	Yeah, of course.
	Of course.
	That's why I don't take ads.
	It's why I don't take sponsors.
	All right.
	I mean, I just I simply cannot have a single power source to the communications brain.
	Right.
	It has to be fireflies.
	So I think it's because I'm afraid.
	I'm afraid of the consequences of saying things that are true, however, that go against, you know, powerful interests and people that will want to, you know, destroy my income source.
	And, you know, I would like to start a company.
	There we go.
	I would like to, but I'm afraid to, because if I also raise my head and say some of the things that I observe and think, That company, I think, will be attacked.
	So maybe I'm paranoid.
	Oh, no, no, no.
	It's not paranoia.
	Thinking that the left will attack you for telling the truth is not paranoid.
	Thomas Satz, he was practically fired.
	He was fired, but he actually managed to get his position back at Syracuse, New York, when he published the myth of mental illness, because he was accused of not believing in mental illness.
	Fascinating story, but you know he and everybody around him lost their career.
	Oh, I mean good heavens.
	I mean that's I mean look what happened with Helmuth Nyborg.
	You look what happened with Richard Lynn.
	You look what happened with a wide variety of people who have spoken truths that are uncomfortable.
	I mean look what happened to Charles Murray.
	It's rough.
	It's rough and a half.
	I mean Philip Rushton A Canadian professor who talked about uncomfortable topics became a pariah in his own university.
	He was investigated.
	He had to deliver his lectures by video.
	Sometimes it can be harsh.
	I mean, the only reality, of course, is that the alternative is even worse, right?
	I'll take social attack over an inevitable gulag every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
	And as you pointed out, think of all the people In the past, who have made sacrifices so much greater than that.
	Yeah.
	So that we have the, you know, incomplete and partial freedoms that we enjoy today.
	So yeah, you know, I mean... So here's the thing.
	Willpower is the opposite of selfishness.
	Yes.
	And if you don't mind me again being kind of frank, you've kind of lived a hedonistic life, right?
	Mm-hmm, yeah.
	And there's something kind of selfish in that.
	Because it's the avoidance of discomfort.
	So why do you need willpower?
	You need willpower to do what you don't want to do!
	Right?
	You need willpower to do what you damn well don't want to do.
	And so, selfishness is when you just act for your own pleasure, regardless of the negative effects, either your actions or more fundamentally your avoided actions or your inactions, the effect that has on the rest of the world.
	Right?
	So, yeah, listen, there are certainly times where I've said, This thing is not worth it, right?
	This beast is not worth it, right?
	And you get de-platformed and attacked and death threats and you're like, okay, this is like, you know, but then it's like, my alternative is what?
	My alternative is what?
	Right?
	I mean, you know, I mean, what am I going to go, go get a job now?
	You know, like the good thing with extreme attacks is that they give you no escape routes and you have to turn and fight, right?
	Because my path back to being an executive or an entrepreneur or a software guy, I mean, okay, I understand.
	The hysteria of the attacks means, okay, I've got no place else to go.
	If they'd attacked less hard, it would have actually been kind of easier to leave.
	It's kind of ironic how this kind of dance goes.
	I just sort of wanted to point that out.
	So you have to do things that you don't want to do.
	And there's topics I brought up in this show I really didn't want to, but I know how important they are.
	And after you look around and say, okay, who's going to pick up this topic?
	And it's like, well, pretty much no one.
	At least if they do, they're going to.
	I don't know, like the Sam Harris-Charles Murray convo about race and IQ, where it's like, well, what's the big issue?
	Well, the big issue you see is that, you know, blacks might be put into different universities where they do better.
	It's like, that's like 300 on the list of issues regarding that topic.
	But now they can say, hey, we've talked about it.
	Why do you want to keep bringing it up, right?
	It's a way of neutering the topic rather than explicating it.
	But yeah, so it's, you need willpower to do what you don't want to do.
	And that's why willpower is the opposite of selfishness, because selfishness is I want comfort.
	I want pleasure.
	And people say, well, but it's at the expense of future gains.
	It's like, well, not for everyone.
	I mean, the boomers had a pretty great time of it in many ways, right?
	I mean, they got the welfare welfare state, they got debt, they got government programs, they didn't have to fight back against the growth of government.
	And, you know, most of them are going to get a good chunk of their retirement benefits and health care.
	So, you know, kind of worked out for that generation in many ways.
	It's just the rest of us are kind of left holding the short end of the stick.
	I think you've lived a kind of selfish life in some ways, as an adult, right?
	And I have all the sympathy in the world for what brought you to that, right?
	But I think the harsh bucket of ice water on the head is, it's a long life to be selfish, you know?
	And the second half of your life, selfishness doesn't work at all.
	Because you need a bigger meaning and you really get a sense of mortality.
	Because selfishness is kind of like you're immortal and you've got forever to fix your problems or turn things around.
	Like if you, you know, you could get hit by a bus tomorrow.
	I mean, geez, I got cancer six years ago.
	Oops!
	Who knows, right?
	I don't smoke and I don't drink barely anything alcoholic and I exercise and I eat well and I weigh the same as I did when I was 18.
	But, you know, sometimes you just get those bad rolls, right?
	Almost like they say to that guy in, oh gosh, Generation Kill, I think it is, there's the guy named the Godfather, and he talks like this because he had throat cancer, and somebody says, you got throat cancer?
	Did you smoke?
	He's like, nope, just lucky, I guess.
	Or, nope, just lucky, I guess.
	So, yeah, I mean, you can't sustain this selfishness because the emptiness grows, right?
	The meaninglessness of it starts to grow.
	Yeah, so it's not only that I have to do things that I don't want to do, but they have to be virtuous things, too.
	They have to be what?
	Virtuous things.
	They have to be good things.
	I would say, yeah.
	Because just doing things that I don't want to do, it sounds like these obligations, you know, I mean, that's how I felt in medical school, passing these other people's tests.
	It was like, I don't think this is the best thing to do with my life.
	But there are obligations, don't you think?
	Oh, absolutely.
	I mean, if you have a good mind and you enjoy freedoms and you have good knowledge, there are obligations.
	They're not moral obligations like people can use self-defense against you if you don't start your podcast or anything like that.
	I'm not talking about...
	I would call them aesthetically preferable action obligations out of Universally Preferable Behavior.
	It's a free book at freedomainradio.com forward slash free, but you do have an obligation because simply being alive means that people sacrifice to some degree to have you and to raise you, right?
	That's just the reality of life.
	And enjoying a certain amount of freedom and security and so on is because people fought for property rights.
	And I know you're not in, you know, first world country, so to speak, but you know, limited government still has spread around the world a little bit.
	You got the internet, you got some freedom of speech and all that.
	So you can consume all of the moral treasures built up by your ancestors and contribute nothing to them.
	But I think we have our civilization not as an ownership, but in trust, right?
	So you know what?
	In trust means that some kid inherits a million dollars.
	He can't spend it.
	He can't control it.
	So it's put in trust and someone is supposed to work to maximize that.
	They can't spend it themselves.
	And our civilization is given to us not as something we own, but in trust, right?
	We inherit it from our ancestors and we're supposed to provide it to our children if we have children.
	And so I think that there is a very strong obligation to work to maintain and expand the freedoms that we've inherited.
	And again, it's not that you throw in jail if you don't, but it's kind of jerky not to, if that makes sense.
	I agree.
	And I think if you have the capability to do something and you don't, you live with the hollowness and the sense of waste and even guilt.
	So this is my problem with your girlfriend.
	That's why I asked if she's been nagging you To do something with your life.
	And you're like, you kind of fucked me on that one to be frank again, right?
	Yeah, I think she did.
	I'm pretty sure she did.
	You'd remember that conversation like it was branded on your forehead and you're staring in the mirror.
	So why is she so comfortable with your inertia, right?
	You've been dating her for four years.
	You've been inert for three.
	Why hasn't she said, will you shut the hell up about talking about making a podcast?
	Just go make a damn podcast.
	Like, come on, right?
	Like, where's her urgency?
	Where's her helping you?
	you because I'm concerned that she's kind of like your parents just enabling this drifting.
	And if she can't give your kids, there may be very good selfish reasons on her part why she's not trying to rouse you into motion.
	Because one of the motions that you may be roused into is finding some younger eggs on the planet, right?
	Right.
	So I'm concerned whenever somebody's been, like whenever someone's inert, just, you know, this is a trick for those who want to know how the hell these conversations work.
	I don't view anyone as acting in isolation.
	I mean, unless they're literally on a desert island, in which case they ain't called again, right?
	You're not acting in isolation.
	You have an entire, like you, you have siblings, you, you had parents for, you know, died, died a decade ago.
	You got a girlfriend, you got friends, like everyone around you is part of your paralysis.
	And so when you talk to me about all of your relationships, and you've been treading water for three years, when you talk to me about your relationships, I view all those relationships very clearly, very clearly and specifically as part of the problem.
	Which is why you're calling me.
	Because your friends aren't helping you and your girlfriend is not helping you.
	And your siblings aren't helping you.
	Because everyone who calls me and says, "Well, I have a good relationship with this person, I have a good relationship with that person, It's like, no, you don't.
	Usually, because if you did, you'd be having this conversation with that person.
	You're calling me because you're not getting what you need.
	And that's a great concern for me.
	Because if your girlfriend has allowed you to drift for three years, you know what she's going to do?
	She's going to encourage you to drift for 30 more.
	Because she gains a benefit, I'm pretty clear what it is as I mentioned, but she gains a benefit from you drifting, from you not recognizing the passage of time, from you not panicking, from you not freaking out, from you not willing things and changing things and taking some fucking reigns in your own life.
	She's invested in you doing that Han Solo frozen in carbon thing for another couple of decades.
	Right.
	So that's not good.
	It's barren in more than one way, right?
	Right.
	Yeah, I hear what you're saying.
	And she does, you know, talk to me and does sort of give me a proverbial slap on the ass to get up and do things and try to encourage me.
	But at the same point, everything that you've said, I think is true.
	No, but she's still choosing to date you and sleep with you and be with you.
	So, you know, Yes.
	Man, I couldn't.
	I mean, not only am I not gay, but if there was some woman who was just treading water, spending a grand a month and dropping their days like sand through an hourglass into a desert of inconsequentiality, I'd be like, no, no, no.
	Either I'm going to get you in motion or you're going to slow me down to nothing.
	I can't be around people who've got slow motion sickness.
	I just get nauseous.
	Yeah, I hear you.
	I do hear you.
	And I'm going to have to reflect on that.
	And I think you hit that again on the head.
	That's true.
	So time passes.
	And what is it that you want to say to the younger men, the younger women who are going to listen to this?
	What's the speech that you wish you'd heard 20 years ago or more?
	First, I would say to pay attention to your own You know, feelings and misgivings, if you have them in relationships, you know, uh, if I would have paid attention, I think more to the relationships I had, you know, years ago, many of them, I just would have been like, this isn't what I want.
	This isn't, I can't marry this person.
	I don't wouldn't want to start a home with this person.
	And I should have paid attention and look for somebody that I would have got along well with.
	And I kind of knew what I liked.
	So I think that would be the main thing.
	Really pay attention and don't discard that little voice in your head that says, ooh, I didn't like that.
	Or, hey, I really like that.
	You don't really have any emotional content in your speech.
	I'm kind of curious about that.
	It's kind of peppy.
	Because you're talking about some pretty significant life disasters here, right?
	Right, I'm just, because I can't connect with any emotions.
	I feel like I'm feeling the passions in this conversation that it's about your life.
	And I'm feeling stronger about it than you are.
	I mean, the other thing that comes to mind is like you sort of draw out a calendar of like, you know, how many days you can possibly live and like think of how much time you have.
	To be able to, you know, meet somebody, and when you can have, you know, kids in a reasonable fashion, and all these sorts of things.
	Like, look at the actual, you know, days, because they really do exist.
	It's not this hypothetical construct.
	Yeah, I mean, I kind of sense, I sense the sort of...
	Do you feel strongly, but you're not communicating it?
	Or do you not feel that strongly about what we're talking about?
	Oh no, I feel pretty strong about what we're communicating about.
	And what's your emotion or emotions?
	Sadness, like I'm like, ah, I really am like kind of stuck.
	Like, you know, I wish I could go back in time, but I can't.
	Frustration, you know, sort of like, well, OK, you know, I I mean, try to look at the positive side, at least, you know, I do have, you know, good health and there are other things that I can do, you know, either have kids in a less than ideal way or, you know, choose not to have kids and contribute to the world in other ways.
	But that is sort of all couched in a sense of sort of sadness, like, you know, I wish I could go back and like do things better.
	And where does the feeling manifest in your body?
	In my stomach and in my shoulders.
	And what does it feel like?
	Like a punch in the stomach.
	What is the worst case scenario for you going forward, Steven?
	The worst case scenario would be to to never have kids, to never make the podcast, to never Adopt kids to never publish a book or in other ways like instruct, you know, a new generation.
	What's so attractive about having kids is teaching a whole new soul about the world and about the way things can be.
	So I think the worst case situation would be like for none of that, for me to do none of that.
	And what's that going to do to you?
	If that comes to pass, or nothing comes to pass, and thirty years from now, you're almost out of money, you're still spending a thousand dollars a month?
	I mean, I would already be out of money.
	I mean, I think, I would, and I know people like this, and I look at them as like, you know, those floating buoys in the sea, it's like warning, warning.
	I think I would probably, I might commit suicide.
	And do you know why your girlfriend doesn't stoke your ambition?
	Well, I think you hit something and say that if she stokes it, I will leave her and try to find a more fertile woman.
	And I don't know if I would, but that is certainly one of the scenarios.
	Let's say that you found a woman.
	Now, you're been unemployed for three years, dwindling savings, no good resume.
	The only industry you have experience in is an industry you don't want to work in anymore.
	And what's that woman gonna say if she wants to have kids and she looks at you?
	Hmm.
	Warning, Bill Robinson, right?
	Oh, what's she gonna say?
	She's gonna say, how is this guy gonna pay for the kids?
	Like, how are we gonna, like, where are we gonna live?
	Like, where's the security?
	So you understand Why your girlfriend is not confronting you on this, right?
	Because she's keeping you fundamentally unattractive to fertile women.
	I'm not saying it's conscious, but that's the effect.
	You are being managed, you are being domesticated, you are being hobbled, castrated in terms of sexual market value.
	If she does, she does it unconsciously because consciously she's, you know, encourages me to get out there and fight.
	and build something.
	If a woman is still sleeping with you, I don't care what she says.
	She can say, I hate you, take me.
	That's a fair point.
	That's a good point.
	Because that's the ultimate reward, biologically speaking and evolutionarily speaking.
	Wherever the vagina points, there doth the heart and the soul go also.
	I'm not even going to argue that point because you are right.
	Right.
	So there's a reason why you're still domesticated.
	it's because you're being domesticated.
	Because if your girlfriend-- - That's a little passive.
	Like that takes my agency out of it.
	Well, yeah, I get that.
	That's why I'm nagging you about agency, and that's why I'm pointing this out, so that you'll react to it, right?
	Okay, I get it, I get it.
	Yeah, you're right.
	You're right, yeah.
	But this rushing to defend everyone else in your life is paralyzing you too, right?
	Yes.
	Yeah, you're absolutely right.
	Okay, so tell me what you want your life I would like to have a solid income from either a job that I start or a company that I start.
	what would you be like, whoo, dodge the bullet, this is great?
	I would like to have a solid income from either a job that I start or a company that I start.
	I would like to have a relationship where I feel I see a future that I want, and I'm like, this is what I sign on to, not this sort of uncomfortable feeling of thinking about, you know, maybe I will just decide not not this sort of uncomfortable feeling of thinking about, you know, maybe I will just decide not to have kids, or maybe we'll adopt, or maybe this or that, like, whatever Uh,
	Um, and that, that I feel like I'm prospering and growing and that when I reach, you know, hopefully reach 80 years old, that I will have the fruits of the things that I build in the next years, whether it be kids or publications or company.
	Yeah, I hear you, but you'll hear this when you listen to this back, Steve, but it's kind of odd.
	It's, you know, FM announcer voice.
	I would really like to have this in my future.
	Like there's no, I don't believe it in terms of like, where are you in this conversation?
	I feel like I'm getting this ticker tape.
	Well, sometimes I ask myself, am I tricking myself saying that I really want to have kids this much?
	Like, am I lying to myself?
	Do I really not?
	Is this a lie?
	Like, I really don't think that having kids is the greatest thing in a family's most... No, no, no, I'm just talking about the kids just... There doesn't seem to be much connection to... I don't know.
	Something's missing for me here.
	I'm just telling you, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with you, I'm just telling you from my standpoint, having had, I don't even know how many of these conversations, probably well north of 1,500, something's not connecting in you about your life.
	You know, I agree with you.
	I feel it too.
	It's like, you were in sales, right?
	In the pharmaceutical?
	For a while, yeah.
	Yeah, yeah, so that's what I'm getting.
	is this polished sales pitch.
	Your life is kind of a ruin, isn't it?
	At the moment.
	I mean, I'm not trying to, you know, I'm just telling you looking in from the outside, you're a very smart guy who's been unemployed for three years, is not doing anything with his life, is living on a pittance, is facing having no family, no kids, no girlfriend, has no plans, no future.
	Like, I want to start a company.
	What does that mean, right?
	I want to be a hair model.
	What does any of this mean?
	If you're not actually drawing up business plans, if you don't actually have the content of what it is you want to sell, if you're not talking to investors, it doesn't mean anything.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, it is a wreck and in a very, very dangerous position.
	Right.
	See, this is what I wanted to say earlier.
	If your current course is going to lead you to suicide, I can't say that your girlfriend loves you if she's doing anything to enable it.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	She's loading the gun, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And it's interesting.
	So that really hit me.
	Because I often think like if I were her, I would break up with me.
	Because of that reason that you just said.
	Because it's the road to suicide.
	Okay, so if you're on the road to suicide, why is there no emotional connection to the conversation?
	I mean, if there's a gun in the room, so to speak, right?
	Because I'm all bottled up, it's like... Okay, but what do you mean, bottled up?
	Why?
	This is your fucking life, man!
	Stop fucking it up!
	Stop throwing it away!
	What's the matter with you?
	You're brilliant!
	You're verbal!
	You're skilled!
	It's a gift that you've been given!
	We are collected into these vertical pillars of verbal stardust!
	This may be the only consciousness in the universe that we know of.
	You, I, and a couple other billion people on this planet.
	We may be the only purpose of the entire universe, or the only place where purpose exists, that we have coalesced from the fecal matter of exploded stars into vertical bipeds that can reason, speak, think, and philosophize.
	And you have this incredible gift from the universe.
	A couple of pounds of wet wear between your ears is an incredible gift from the universe.
	You think an asteroid, if it was conscious, would look at you and say, holy shit, I just get to float around in this stupid exploded Saturn ring between Mars and Jupiter.
	You think you've got it tough.
	I'm just rotating in a void.
	You get to do something.
	You get to break out of physics.
	You get to break out of determinism.
	You get to will something in your life.
	Which, compared to everything else in the universe, is a miracle beyond language, because it's the foundation of language.
	You have this incredible gift.
	Not just that you're conscious, but you're smart, and you've got some money, and you've got access to technology.
	You are in recipient of the greatest gifts the universe has to offer even throughout human history.
	This is the greatest time to be alive that there has ever been because the fight is on and we need everyone in the trenches.
	We need everyone who can speak to speak and speak fucking loudly.
	The fight is on and it remains verbal.
	It remains intellectual.
	It remains agile.
	It remains philosophical.
	It is not yet descended to lead through air, bone and brain.
	You have such a staggering gift that you have been given.
	And you're throwing it all away.
	And as you say, this will lead you to an early grave.
	It may not be suicide directly, it may just be you get careless.
	You take up a dangerous hobby.
	You drink too much.
	You... whatever.
	It could be anything with which you wet finger out the brilliant candle of your existence.
	I see it, Steph.
	I sometimes think that I'm trying to threaten somebody with my self-destructive behavior so that they will hear me.
	Yeah, fuck, kill yourself.
	What's the difference?
	I don't think you understood what I said.
	Oh, no, no, I understood what you said.
	What I'm saying is that you think that the suicide is in the future?
	You live alone in a room, you don't produce anything, you don't create anything, you don't engage with the world?
	Yeah, you're right.
	It'll take four weeks before your body's even discovered.
	Who will know that you're gone?
	What's the fucking difference?
	You're already half dead.
	And we need you.
	We need you.
	Suit the fuck up.
	We need you.
	The world needs you.
	The future needs you.
	Virtue needs you.
	Freedom needs you.
	Now, this may sound crazy, but I feel like... I hear you, and I agree.
	And I feel like I couldn't agree more.
	And I feel like...
	My girlfriend has made terrible choices in the past and... Like what?
	And sort of... Wait, like what?
	Like getting to this point and not having kids!
	Oh, okay.
	She wasn't part of a gang or anything.
	Okay, got it.
	No, no, no.
	No, just getting to this point.
	Just not having kids.
	Not having kids.
	And so, if I break with her, I mean, I don't know the whole thing.
	I just sort of feel like she will die a lonely death.
	I mean, it sounds crazy to say this.
	The very sort of lonely life that I envision for myself, taking myself to suicide, I envision sort of for her, if I break up with her.
	Okay, let's say that's true.
	Is two better than one?
	Two is not better than one.
	Two is not better than one.
	And if you have three kids, the world's still up two people.
	And you're not fundamentally responsible... I know.
	...for the choices she made In her 20s and her 30s.
	And her 40s, I suppose.
	But certainly 20s and 30s.
	I mean, it's not your responsibility.
	And you can't be with someone because they have a ghost gun to their temple, right?
	I hear you.
	Because if she destroys your potential as well, it ain't gonna make her happier, unless she's a complete sadist, which I can't imagine she is.
	No, she's not.
	Right.
	And if you want, you can stay friends with her and bring your kids over for a visit.
	Yeah.
	Don't think she'd have that.
	Yeah, maybe your wife wouldn't either, but it's a nice thought in the universe where that might happen.
	But no, listen, I know what you mean.
	I know what you mean.
	I know what you mean as far as feeling like If it's not going to be you.
	But here's the thing.
	It's like you can't sustain things with her anyway.
	Because you want to have kids.
	Now, if you give up having kids to be with her, you're just going to resent her.
	It's going to break the relationship.
	You can't possibly... Because you've got this illusion because you don't change physically that you won't change emotionally.
	But if you give up having kids and a family and a future because of her, you know how much you're going to hate her?
	Come on.
	And yourself, too.
	And you're going to be surrounded one afternoon by the ghosts of three kids who never came to be saying, Daddy, why did you do it?
	We would have to adopt.
	We would have to adopt or try surrogate.
	OK, well, if you gave up having your own children for her.
	And look, maybe you can adopt.
	Maybe you can do the surrogacy thing.
	I'm just I'm just saying as far as efficiency goes.
	Yeah, it's just weird.
	And you know that also, listen, you have to choose the mother of your children based upon personality traits, because all personality traits have a genetic component.
	So if you've got two procrastinators having kids, that may not be the most fair thing for the children in the universe.
	I know.
	Sure enough.
	And if you guys haven't...
	You know, this comes back to, I want to start a business.
	I want to start a podcast.
	If you guys haven't got that process in place already, if you're not making that happen, you've been going out for four years.
	By the time my wife and I had known each other four years, we were over three years married and trying to have kids.
	Nothing's happened, right?
	You haven't filled out any paperwork.
	I bet you haven't even really looked into it.
	It's just a, yeah, well, maybe we could, maybe we could.
	That's bullshit.
	That's not how things get done in this world.
	So it's not going to happen with you guys, because it hasn't happened, in my humble opinion.
	Yeah.
	And you can say, well, now I'm going to start willing things, but the problem is your entire relationship is founded upon paralysis.
	So if you start willing things, she's going to fight you, consciously or unconsciously, it doesn't really matter.
	Unconsciously is even worse.
	Yeah, yeah, we'll get to it.
	Oh, we'll get to it.
	You know, she'll get upset.
	She'll get anxiety.
	She'll push back against it.
	And because you're trying to bootstrap yourself up from half a century of fairly decadent selfishness, or 30 years, let's be generous, right?
	Then if you face a lot of resistance, it's going to make it virtually impossible.
	You can't learn how to swim in a riptide, you understand?
	You need people around you who are not already invested in you not getting ahead and not getting things done, if you want to get things done in your life.
	Which is why, when you change who you are, very few people come along for the ride.
	Because everyone is invested in who you were, not who you could be.
	And they're invested in keeping you there where you were.
	Now as far as the age gap goes, I'm so sorry I get out of me to laugh, I'm not laughing at you.
	But you've been in stasis for so long, I'm not sure that your excessive maturity is going to be a huge barrier to someone younger than you.
	Well, when I think of, and I don't think I understood what you meant.
	Well, I mean that you've kind of lived this life without responsibility.
	So you kind of haven't grown up.
	So the idea that you're too mature for somebody who's in their 30s, I'm not sure that's entirely true.
	You might have more in common than you think.
	Oh, no.
	What I meant by barriers, I was sort of thinking of just being a different generation and physical, you know, Men died 10 years earlier than women practically anyway.
	Well, no, if you keep a healthy weight and you take care of yourself, you've got pretty good odds, right?
	Yeah.
	Also, if you don't have a dangerous occupation, right?
	In other words, you understand right now you're in a highly dangerous occupation.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	The most dangerous.
	- Yeah. - So, I mean, if I were in your shoes, I would certainly make a plan of what it is that I wanted to do with my life.
	And then I'd make a list of everything that was in my way, including myself, maybe even my girlfriend, sit down and talk with my girlfriend and say, listen, it's okay to be mad at people who've enabled your worst habits.
	It doesn't mean that they're 100% responsible and you're not responsible.
	It's okay to sit her down and say, What are you doing?
	Why haven't you kicked my ass more?
	And you say, well, it's your life, it's your responsibility.
	It's like, no, no, no, no, you can't do that.
	You can't be in a relationship with someone and say it was 100% you.
	Relationships are by definition 50-50.
	You have the right to get mad at people in your life who have enabled your bad habits.
	It doesn't mean that you're not responsible.
	You understand, right?
	But taking 100% ownership, saying, well, she had nothing to do with it.
	It's bullshit.
	She has at least half to do with it.
	And she, in a sense, has more because she's outside and can see.
	You're inside and therefore it's hard to see, right?
	You know, how tall is How tall is the lighthouse?
	Well, if you're inside the lighthouse, it's kind of tough to tell.
	If you're outside, you can measure it.
	Well... So, what's keeping... It's easier for me to see about you, and it's easier for you to see about me, than it is for me to see about myself, or you to see about yourself.
	So, other people in your life have more of a responsibility for things that you can't see yourself, because they can see.
	Right?
	You get an itch on your back, you turn around, you say to someone, can you see anything back there?
	If there's some horrible Australian Venom spider back there and say, no, I don't see anything.
	And then you get bit and pass out.
	Who's responsible?
	Hey man, it was your back.
	It was your shirt, right?
	It's like, but I can't see back there.
	That's why I asked you to see.
	And you didn't tell me the truth now, did you?
	So it's fine to get mad at other people who haven't told you what you need to hear to get the hell on with your life.
	And that will help her too.
	I think you need to have a frank conversation about, how has it come to pass that I've been stagnant for three years?
	Because you're supposed to watch my back too.
	And she'll probably, she'll probably put all the responsibility on you.
	Hey, you know, I didn't want to interfere.
	Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	It's like, come on, come on.
	You know, if I was about to drink rat poison thinking it was a Diet Coke, you'd say something.
	Oh, I don't want to interfere with your drink.
	Come on.
	You're right.
	Yeah, there's a lot of context, but with her and with my siblings and just with other people... Yeah, everyone is complicit in where you are.
	And you need to start relying on a group of people who's gonna kick your ass and elevate you.
	We all need that.
	I mean, I have that group of people.
	You need that group of people.
	We all need that.
	Yeah, I see that.
	Because entropy and stagnation and decay is the natural state of things.
	And anyone who ain't helping you up is holding you down.
	Yeah.
	And that's why when you were saying, well, we have these great conversations, I'm like, I'm not sure about that.
	It's not the conversation, it's the action.
	Yeah, whatever ain't getting you moving, right?
	I mean, if you are facing self-destruction, virtual or real, out of your current path, anyone who ain't helping you turn the wheel, that's not love, man.
	That's not love.
	That's need.
	Yeah.
	So that's most of what I wanted to say.
	I'm just going to ask for one other thing.
	Sure.
	Don't kill yourself.
	Okay, if you get the thought, call the Suicide Hotline, you can call me if you want, if you need money for therapy, I'll send you money for therapy, but I just would really like you to promise me, I mean I don't think you will, because what we were talking about is kind of vague and down the road, but just for my own peace of mind, will you make me that promise?
	I make you that promise, and it's this slow Entropy, stagnation, decay, killing myself.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	When you think about joining me on the ramparts, because we need some good fucking archers, man.
	I've got great aim.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Will you let me know how it goes?
	I will.
	Thank you so much, Steph.
	Thank you.
	Keep me posted.
	I really, really want to know how this goes.
	And thank you so much for your honesty in this call.
	And thank you so much for your work.
	I appreciate it.
	Take care.
	You too. - Well, thank you so much for enjoying this latest free domain show on philosophy.
	And I'm going to be frank and ask you for your help, your support, your encouragement, and your resources.
	Please like, subscribe, and share, and all of that good stuff to get philosophy out into the world.
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