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May 26, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:47:44
"HELP STEF! MY WIFE IS A BORDERLINE!" Freedomain Couple Call In
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Hi everybody, Stefan Molyneux, I'm here with Luka and Milena, thanks so much.
It's a marriage on the edge, on the brink.
Luka, why don't you let me know what you had, or let the listeners know, the email that you sent me.
Oh yeah, sure.
So, I said, hi Stef, I need some clarity of mind that I think you might bring.
I have been listening for almost a decade and I've gone to therapy for a couple of years, but it seems that my self-knowledge is still grossly incomplete.
At the moment, my entire life resonates with the Tom Yorke's Black Swan, especially the bit that goes, and this is fucked up, fucked up, this is your blind spot, blind spot.
It should be obvious, but it's not.
So I'm married to a woman who suffers from borderline personality disorder.
We have been married for less than a year, but we have been together for five years.
I proposed to her even though we knew about the condition for three years now.
I thought I truly loved her but I always had these doubts which were skewed by said therapist who claimed that BPD tapers over time and when exposed to quote-unquote through love.
At the time I was also consuming a lot of Jordan Peterson content and I was reinforced in the notion that Everything worthwhile must be hard.
Now I'm more in line with Paul Leelam, who also has an excellent assessment of Jordan Peterson, in my opinion.
So I'm coming to terms that you cannot plough through life by mere willpower.
And I'm finally tired.
And also, finally, I understand that I'm the codependent in the relationship, which my therapist never addressed.
And I realized probably, uh, this is not love, but codependency, which is grinding me into non-existence.
Uh, we are separated at the moment.
All the literature is highly pessimistic unless the, uh, the person commits to therapy, uh, DBT therapy to be precise, which is the only supposedly that works.
And she tried, uh, other therapies, but failed multiple times.
Um, I think that the plan of having kids, uh, made my unconscious finally explode outward.
Um, the intuition that I used to have was scrambled in her presence until now.
And, uh, we are probably going for annulment or divorce alternatively.
I am in my early thirties and she's in her late twenties and we are both participating in the call.
First of all, guys, I'm very sorry about the situation that you're in.
I mean, I just really want to give massive sympathies, condolences.
I mean, a marriage, as you know, is very serious business, and you entered into it with great hopes, with great optimism, and things are not playing out the way that you want.
And I just, you know, as a married guy myself, and as a guy who's had a share of breakups in the past, I just I want to give you guys a big hug across the multiverse for everything that you're suffering and going through right now.
It's really, really tough.
And I'm glad that you reached out.
Hopefully we can have a useful conversation about it.
But first thing I just want to get on the record is how sorry I am that this is the situation that you're in.
Now, Milena, what do you think of this, and for those who don't know, like borderline personality disorder, what do you think of this diagnosis?
How did it come about?
And what's the behavior that you think fits into the category?
I've never been formally diagnosed with BPD.
His former therapist suggested that I have traits of it, which I agree with, but the therapists I've been to, they always kind of neglected to diagnose me.
One therapist put me on meds for a year.
Actually, he wanted to Prolonged that period, but I intentionally got off the medicine altogether.
And the more I read, I mean, I know the condition I have, it doesn't really depend on the name it has, but I think the more I read about it in the last six months, I think I can identify more with
autism spectrum disorder because of the fact that I have difficulties not just processing my emotions but just naming them and quantifying them and I have this what they call mutism I think that Luca knows best like when he tries to when we have these deep talks important talks in the past I would shake and I would mutter and I would
It took me like 30 minutes to say three full sentences so that part I think doesn't fit the borderline personality disorder but what fits is that like terrible fear of abandonment that I have and I think I'm sort of mellowing but it's hard to tell.
That part is kind of ruled my life for Forever, I guess.
I'm still trying to shake that off.
I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm getting an odd echo and I think it's probably Luca.
If you guys are in the same area, you'll need to mute while she's talking.
Otherwise, it's going to get an odd echo.
It makes you sound like you're coming from another dimension, which is a bit eerie.
Now, Milena, have you listened to this show much at all?
Do you have any idea what the approach is or the idea behind the show is?
Yeah, I listened to Colin's shows.
I think that I enjoyed that most.
I think some of the other things you had, we had discussions, we had slight arguments over you in the past because I disagreed and he agreed with you.
But it wasn't really a fight, it was a disagreement.
But I know Colin's shows, I've listened to many of them.
So you know what we're going to talk about next, right?
Yep.
Go ahead.
Early, early days of Milena, the forging of who you are in the environment of your childhood.
So hit me sister.
What was it like for you growing up?
Okay, I went to a new therapist yesterday and she said I'm an experienced client, so this is going to be easy because I've done this multiple times, so it's kind of a routine.
Sorry if it sounds like that, it's not like I'm disassociated, but I've chewed over this multiple times.
My parents divorced when I was six, actually I think Maybe five and a half.
They tried to get back together when I was 14 and we changed apartments.
He was supposed to move in and one day he just didn't.
And I figured that out because my mom started smoking again.
Nobody ever told me and my older brother that they weren't going back together.
Although we moved, we bought furniture together, We almost got the new internet thing or the new computer for him or something and that never happened.
I have an older and a younger brother.
The younger brother is from my father's second marriage so we are not that close.
I think the relationship with my older brother was part of one segment of my therapy that was quite grueling because I think I was infatuated with him as every younger sibling.
After the divorce, it took me a while to bring that to light because he was a child.
He was 10, I was 6.
But I think in the period until I moved out to study at the age of 18, he was, well, he was abusive.
Well, psychologically, yeah, I think that goes without saying, like in any kind of family I used to think, but he was at times physically abusive.
He would hit me a lot with his fists, like, not on the head, because I had two concussions, which wasn't his fault, I just fell.
And he would never hit me on the head, because that was, like, no-go zone, but he would hit me everywhere else, and once we got into a bad fight, and he would, he, like, hit me multiple times on the head.
And my mom never, never reacted, never did anything to stop it, like, She would hit him.
I mean, I could understand because when he was 14, she would hit him with a vacuum pipe.
And, well, I would get, you know, the rest of the rage later on.
And, like, we got into so many fights that I would literally chase him with a knife.
And then he would tease me and I would chase him with a knife and he would close the door in front of me because he was faster and I would just slam.
That's the part of Borderline I...
identify that rage because I would use the knife and I would like slam the door multiple times and I was embarrassed to have... Are you going to stab the door?
Yeah, because I couldn't stab him, but I think I would.
Like once he took all my stuff because we were in a fight and I locked the door and he took my, I don't know, my favorite things and he just threw them out into the corridor because we live in a tower block.
And I would have, if I had, like, if he weren't, if he hadn't been faster and stronger, like, I would have hurt him seriously, I believe, because I was enraged and nobody really believed that was so serious.
Well, I mean, if he hadn't been faster and stronger, he probably wouldn't have been that aggressive because of that very possibility of your revenge, right?
Yeah, just one last example I want to mention is that I was I was eight I think and I was about we were about to go to school and then he wanted something and I didn't want to give him or something and we got into a fight just right before school and he punched me on the nose and it it hurts a lot but nothing I there was no blood or something or bruise really but it hurt a lot and when I
I went to school, I didn't say anything to anyone and my deskmate said like, oh, what's wrong with your nose?
And I thought she was teasing, like, you know, but she was a good friend, but I still thought like, oh, like, why are you messing with me?
And when I looked back in the mirror back home, I was like seeing like, OK, maybe there is a slight bump, but I'm not sure.
And I would say to my mom and she said, oh, it's nothing.
You just kind of you're imagining.
And I think I've never really addressed that until maybe last year.
I mean, mentally, I haven't talked to him about it.
I mean, we don't have much of a relationship, although he has a, I have a nephew and I really love him, but I just can't, I don't really can't bring my, I cannot bring myself to just visit him and like spend time with the kid and just disregard him.
Was your nose, I'm not sure what happened, was your nose broken or?
Well, not broken, technically, but it was a little bit swollen and I think, as I said, there was no blood and bruise, but I could notice a slight bump.
So I don't know, maybe I'm imagining, but I know it was really painful and I think there was a slight swelling.
like change there I could tell and my desk mate could tell so I was just I'm just curious doesn't mean I mean just curious now sorry just to just to remind me Milena this is your older brother was was he was from he was a stepbrother?
No he is mine both my parents are his parents like so we're not we are fully related like blood related.
Right.
Now, you said that your parents got divorced when you were about six, right?
Yeah.
And when did the abuse start with your brother?
Well, first of all, there was abuse from the dad, but luckily that stopped when he went.
I remember being very proud when they told me their divorce.
I was proud because now I can do anything and he cannot hit me because the law protects me.
That's what my grandma said.
But the abuse from my brother started, I think, maybe the next year.
I think when he started fifth grade and I started school.
So I was first, he was fifth grade.
That's where we just couldn't be in the same room together.
It was impossible just to Not get into an argument.
Like, I would have friends over.
Like, my best friend who lived in the building would come and my brother would call me names in front of him.
And, of course, I would then start to hit him and then he would hit me back.
And then, of course, like, I never really called friends over because, like, he would really call me terrible names in front of my friends.
Right.
Now, what was the story about your parents' divorce?
How was it explained to you kids?
It wasn't really explained.
The second time, I remember my grandma was there, my mom's mom, and she just I don't remember exactly what she said but parents didn't talk to us.
I think grandma took took charge of that and I know something was odd because my dad was sleeping in the other room and my brother and I were sleeping with mama on the on the sofa bed and once I remember he was ironing his trousers and I was
Clipping my fingernails, and I don't know why it's like I have like flashbacks I was maybe five then and he was still living in that house and I asked oh, are you going are you ironing your trousers to see the other woman and He just like slammed me so hard like all my fingernails went.
Oh all over the room, so I don't know whether he had the other woman while he was still in the other room in the apartment.
I don't know, nobody really told us.
The moment when I realized that things were really happening was that I was playing video games, you know, Sega back then in the 90s, and he came one day with two guys And while I was playing the game, he didn't even talk to me.
He pulled out the TV, the cable out of the wall and took the TV.
And took half of the apartment, if I may ask.
That's why I think the reason why I cannot forgive him because he took... We weren't rich.
It was the 90s in Serbia.
It was a terrible time to be there.
And he took... We had one bed with, you know, the...
Kind of the wooden things, the wooden beams, but I forgot the tiny things under, under the mattress.
Yeah.
And he took the frame and those tiny, tiny wooden things under the mattress.
And he left the mattress because he said, like, he has to return it to someone, which I think is just spite.
It's like, I cannot take the mattress, but I'll take this.
And he took half of the stuff.
We didn't have TV.
We didn't have wardrobes.
My mom had to... We literally borrowed a bed from a neighbor and we borrowed furniture from my grandma's cottage, which was like old and rickety and falling apart, being glued with cellotape.
He never really talked to us about it.
The thing in my family, which is the motif in my family, is like, don't say anything.
Like, I don't see, I don't tell.
It's like, let's pretend it does not exist.
Let's push it under the carpet and let's just jump on it until it stops kicking.
And even if I tried to ask, I would get, you know, a very sharp reply or Just my every question was disregarded so I don't know what happened exactly.
I know that I remember him being abusive to my mom.
I remember twice.
I thought maybe that was a dream but I remember that he hit her and I also remember that feeling like I never felt comfortable while he was holding me.
When my grandpa died, my mom had to go a couple of days to her hometown, and my dad was taking care of me.
I remember he was bathing me and dressing me, and I felt like, oh, this is... It's like a stranger.
I don't have that feeling of warmth when you touch someone, and it was so obvious then.
So I don't know what happened.
What I found out when I was 14, my mom is a born-again Christian by the way, and she started going to church and you know confessions and stuff all the rage, all the package, and by accident I found a little paper in her pocket because she said like go get the money from my pocket and I got the things and there were too many things and I just kind of see what's what.
And there was a confession paper on which the biggest thing that broke me was that she had seven abortions.
And they were married for nine years, and I'm the second child.
And I think that feeling of being the one That might have ended up being an abortion and that just kind of slipped through.
I think that really messed me up.
That knowledge and the fact that I cannot tell her.
There's no way I could tell her.
I only told her about that two years ago and she admitted.
And she convinces me.
She told me many times like you were the wanted child, we wanted you, I wanted a girl, I wanted three children and he didn't want to.
I cannot really trust that completely.
I can accept it but I never really felt like a wanted child and knowing that I might have been an abortion does not really help and nothing she can say can help me feel that.
They really wanted me.
Especially since she said that after she had my brother, when he was one, my dad said that their marriage was a mistake and that they shouldn't have gotten married and had a child.
But they still went on and had me and had seven abortions.
It was all with him.
I think he was her second man in her life.
I think the first one was... I don't know if she even slept with that first boyfriend.
So, in ten years of marriage they had two children and seven abortions and I'm supposed to believe that they really plan to have me.
Well, sorry, you said you have an older and a younger sibling, right?
Yeah, the younger is from my father's second marriage, so when they broke up he remarried him.
Not a half-brother, I'd rather call him brother because I think it's...
And what's your contact like with your parents at the moment?
For a while it was very limited.
I had issues.
I think that was the time when I stopped going to my first therapy because my dad That was the issue with him at that time.
I was 24 and we were talking about something and I felt really bad and not for him because of something else and he said, OK, you don't want to talk, bye.
And then the next time, like five days later, he called me up and I said, like, why did you hang up on me?
And he would pretend like, no, I didn't hang up on you.
What are you saying?
The same thing, like nothing happened.
What you believe it happened, didn't happen.
And after that, I answered his calls maybe once a month.
And with mom, it's...
Different.
I think for a while I used to think of her as a victim.
I always thought, like, she sacrificed for us.
She didn't get remarried.
She had a possibility.
She refused one man in, like, maybe three years after the divorce.
She was supposed to marry him but she didn't.
And I always believed it was because of us.
But, you know, nobody said anything, of course.
It's just my projection.
And with her, I cannot talk with them about things.
They're very self-centered, and it's like my mom plays the victim, which I realized quite later on.
If I say something that's bad, she's like, oh, don't say that, I'm feeling bad, or don't worry me, you're worrying me, or please don't say that.
But I'm feeling that.
It doesn't really matter.
If it disrupts her comfort then it should not be said.
Dad is just disconnected.
I don't think he has any emotions.
The only time I saw him show emotions was when we were in a car accident and he wasn't there.
He came to the hospital and he was all calm and composed in the hospital and when we came back home My brother was driving, my older brother was driving, and my mom was still in the hospital, but we came back home.
And I remember he hugged my brother and started crying.
The only time I saw him crying was when my grandpa died, his dad.
But he hugged my brother and cried.
He didn't hug me.
I just thought I was there on the couch.
I was like, okay.
Sorry, Milena, how does... I mean, it's a very difficult childhood, and again, massive sympathies to you for all that you experienced, and also all that you didn't experience.
You know, like fun, hugs, affection, and feeling wanted and needed.
How does this childhood manifest in your adult life to the point where your marriage is seriously threatened?
What is it that you do or don't do that harms your current relationships?
Well, from what I can tell after, well, I have to say like years of reflection is that I don't think like people would really Love me?
And that's why I was so... I mean, I had some kind of, let's call it flings, not really relationship.
Like, Luca is my first serious relationship that I could say, like, I love him, I care about him.
And I was always surprised.
I remember saying to one of my colleagues after three months into our relationship, I said, I don't know why he's with me.
It's amazing, but what is he doing with me?
In what universe does this play out?
He could find someone much better than me.
And she was like, oh, what are you talking about?
Like, you're great.
Like, oh, yeah, thank you.
Doesn't help.
And I think that feeling of, like, not really believing that I can be, you know, really loved.
Okay, so that's all very nice, and I appreciate that, but that's incredibly avoidant, just to be blunt with you.
Because I ask what actions you take that harm your relationship and like a truly traditional female, when I'm asking you what do you do, you start telling me about what you feel.
Right?
So feeling unloved or feeling unlovable is one thing, but what do you do, what do you say, how do you act that threatens your marriage?
Okay.
Thank you for putting me back on track.
No problem.
Always trying to help.
Yeah, thanks.
Well, the things I do is that when When I notice that he is maybe in a bad mood or something is not right, it can be because of work or any other reason why he's feeling down, I would in the past, more often than now, I would feel that's because of me and then I would act, I would just sink, like my mood would just
drop because i believe like oh this is because of me and then i become i become cold and i i think i'm generally i think that's the the problem because i'm generally i think affectionate and then at these moments where where i just shut down because something is overwhelming or i believe that maybe he doesn't like me i i tend to push him push him away i i limit
I don't, I mean, I limit the contact and I, as he says, I'm like a different person.
It's like just maybe 30% of me is here but the rest of it is just under some deep snow or under some like rock and I'm afraid to come out.
And then he tries to talk to me and like make me come out and then it's usually that lasts for a long time.
When we talk, I always feel better, but I think it's that action of just shutting down and pulling back away from him and just shutting him out of my life completely.
That's good.
I appreciate that.
But where's stabby Milena?
Right?
Because you're very much like straw and you know, but you wanted to stab your brother, right?
And listen, 50% of sibling relationships are abusive and it is something that is generally under acknowledged in society.
So you know, I get where you're coming from.
But this, you know, I shut down, I withdraw, I'm cold.
That's somewhat passive.
And I'm just wondering if there's any, and maybe there's not, I'm just wondering, you know, where stab the door Milena ended up?
Is she still around?
Is she, is there aggression that pops up as well?
Well, my aggression is limited to people I dislike.
In school I fought with boys until the age of maybe 14, where they could really take me down.
So I would fight with boys with fists and other things.
I was quite angry at that time.
But my anger... Ah, okay, I see where you're going.
I got it.
Well, after a while, like I think after 20, after turning 20, like my...
My anger was directed toward myself, mostly, because I used to... I haven't done it in, I think, since we're together, or maybe six years, or six and a half.
You were a... Well, I'm more creative.
I'm a chewer, or a biter, how to call it, because, you know, when you cut
It's instantaneous and then it shows and people know what it is but I would like bite through my skin and then people will think it's like I don't know a burn or something because it looks very irregular and it it hurts much more and it hurts longer and it doesn't really have uh that's like so premeditated it it doesn't it cannot really hit something serious like when you cut you might hit a vein or something but you cannot really
chew through your vein.
And where would you bite yourself?
Arms, usually.
Yeah.
Like, hands and arms.
I mean, I did some cutting, too, before I went to university, but then I stopped.
But generally, arms and hands, fingers, those parts.
And what was the... I mean you've done a lot of therapy right?
So what was the purpose do you think or the driving force behind the chewing?
when I would be so frustrated and overwhelmed, and I think I understood that it's socially unacceptable, you know, just to break plates, and I guess, or to break things, although I did break a few things in my room, but or to break things, although I did break a few things in my room, but it felt that
Once I had, this is kind of shameful to admit, I had two concussions, I mentioned that, and I guess it's a weird connection.
No, it makes no sense, but my mind at 19, like, thought that if you hit yourself on the head multiple times in the same spot, you might provoke an aneurysm that might occur due to concussions.
I don't know why, but that was my teenage mind.
So I would do that to kind of try to provoke an aneurysm, which is not something I'm proud of.
Oh, so this was a suicidal impulse, right?
To try and get the blood clot or aneurysm or whatever going on in your head?
Well, yeah, kind of a weakling attempt, because, you know, you don't really do it.
You expect to do something, so suddenly, maybe one time it might happen.
It's not a very serious attempt.
I don't count it as such.
But I think that might... But it was a bit, I mean, nobody wants an aneurysm because it's good for you, right?
Exactly.
Right, okay.
But I was in a really bad place.
I think that's one way.
No, no.
There are some things you don't have to say to me.
You know, like you're chewing yourself, you're trying to induce an aneurysm.
You don't have to tell me that you're in a pretty bad place.
I mean, that's understood.
We don't need the ABCs.
All right.
Yeah, but I think when I have to be very grateful to my college roommate because I went to live in a student dorm and I credit her for socializing me or for like wanting me to really enjoy life because she was very positive and she's like outgoing and let's go and let's bring people to our room and I don't know let's go to concerts and parties let's hang out
At the beginning, I was kind of reluctant, but after a while, I made friends.
For the first time, I was 21 when I actually made a good friend that I consider a friend, truly.
I don't have friends from high school and elementary school.
I hate when they try to add me on Facebook.
I just ignore their requests.
And especially after I finished university and I started working, that's where I met my second best friend and she introduced me to Luca as well and I think just that period of transitioning from
from college to working work life and meeting all those people that actually were nice to me and we seemed to get along and I felt motivated to go out and talk to people and I remember like it was a terrible job as a customer service agent but I remember going to work and there's like a big tree nearby and I was like looking at it and it's like okay this life might
Might not be that.
Not that bad.
I think at that time I stopped completely hurting myself in any way.
I think maybe I was like late 22 or something.
And I was considering going to therapy.
I was browsing but I didn't really have the guts to ask someone to refer me or to just go without anyone's support.
And after that, a while after that, I met Luca and I think even in the first month when we talked, he mentioned that he went to therapy and I said that, oh, I'm also considering that.
And he said, well, you should go.
And I was like, wow, this is like this great guy who actually had already done therapy and is supporting me to go.
It's like, how better does it get?
Can it get any better than that?
That was really, really amazing and I think if I hadn't, like, I don't really believe I was in... If I had been in such a terrible place and I met him, like, if I had met him, like, two years prior, like, we wouldn't be a thing.
I would be too damaged to have any kind of contact.
That could have ended up being better for him, right?
Because where you guys are right now, is wedded and bonded and married and in a three-year relationship and a year married and so if this blows up now then the fact that you were better off in it almost makes it worse off for him if that makes sense and you too right?
Let me ask you this, let me ask you this I mean we can we can hit the gas here right because you've done a lot of self-knowledge work and all of that okay and listen great background I really really appreciate that now Give me just a rough figure.
What percentage of your personality do you think is still being driven by what you suffered as a child?
Well, I suppose.
Especially in the last six months, I think I've done a lot of work, especially with one online therapist, which I think I made some breakthroughs with.
I don't want you taking me off on a filibuster.
This is where we don't get any more side journeys.
All right.
Just off the top of your head, what percentage of your personality at the moment is still being run by childhood trauma?
I would say 25%.
And Luca, what do you think?
Sorry, you'll have to unmute and answer this.
I'll unmute.
Yeah, I'm here.
Yeah.
What percentage of Milena's personality or interactions with you do you think is being driven by childhood trauma?
Well, that might be accurate, her assessment.
So, what?
Are you not going to answer the question either?
That might be accurate?
I don't know.
I'm asking you.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, yeah.
Quarter?
Like 25% is fairly... I would agree.
Alright, now under moments of stress, under moments of conflict, so it could be 25% during the day, but under moments of stress and under moments of conflict, how much of Milena's personality do you feel is still run by the past?
Oh, it can go up to 100.
Right.
In that state, when she dissociates.
Right.
Okay, so sorry Milena, I'm just going to switch back to you for a sec.
So, Milena.
Yeah, here.
You understand, I mean, you know enough, right?
I mean, you understand the dissociation, right?
So the dissociation is that when you grew up and someone was in a bad mood, you were in a situation of extreme danger, right?
I know.
Right, so, I mean, it's PTSD, it's, you know, someone who was in World War II going to see Saving Private Ryan, it's somebody who was mauled by a lion, being dropped into a lion cage, it is It's a reactivation of defenses that were essential in the past and are destructive now, right?
Yeah, I'm aware of that.
Yeah, you know all that, right?
So I guess my question is this.
I mean, how much happiness are your parents going to rob from your life until you tell them to fuck off in your head?
Like seriously, they robbed your childhood, they didn't intervene with your brother, they probably were bad enough parents that it was one of the reasons your brother was such a psycho.
I mean, how many sacrifices of happiness?
They took your childhood, they took the skin on your arm, they took the straightness of your nose, right?
They took all of this stuff.
Are they going to take your marriage too?
Like, this is what I don't understand.
How much do you have to give to them until they're satisfied?
Like, are you going to sacrifice and burn up your marriage now?
Is that going to make them calm down in your head?
I mean, where does it stop?
Is it ever going to stop, just out of curiosity?
No, it must stop.
Well, no, it doesn't.
It didn't with your parents, right?
There's no reason it has to stop with you.
Inevitable, right?
I mean, the general tendency is of things to continue, right?
You know all about the principle of inertia, that which an object in motion tends to stay in motion.
And this cycle of history is going to repeat and continue.
Unless you stop it.
And I guess I'm just, like, why are you still treating your husband like he's your father or your brother?
Like, you, I mean, I assume he's not, right?
I assume he's not like them, right?
No, no, he's, he's the opposite.
like the fact is why are you treating him the same if he's the opposite I don't know That's unfair, right?
And that's letting the past win over the future, right?
It's absolutely unfair and it's killing me.
But what would help?
If I just break every contact, does that make me mentally away from them?
You can't break every contact because they're in your head, right?
Yeah, exactly.
That's my point.
How do I break without in my head?
Well, let me ask you this.
You talked a lot about pain, a lot about suffering as a child, about anger as a child, but there was not one single, I was listening for it carefully, there was not one single moral judgment about your history, right?
What do you think of parents who abuse children?
What do you think of older children who abuse younger helpless little girls?
Absolutely appalling.
Yeah, appalling.
Chinese opera is appalling.
That's not a moral judgment.
Okay, then evil?
That's what you mean?
Are you asking?
Like, now it's like, what word does he want me to say?
What is it?
Tell me.
I mean, let's say you have a child, and your child is treated by some babysitter the way that your brother treated you.
What would you say about that babysitter?
It's a bad person.
It's evil, right?
I mean, again, unless I'm completely out to lunch as far as it's it's a violation of the non aggression principle.
It's physical, mental and emotional torture, right?
Yeah, I know.
I would never leave my child with my mom alone.
That goes without saying.
Okay.
And I think she knows that.
I think I told her when she was looking after my nephew, it's like, no, no, that's not an option.
And I don't think my dad would even want to take care of the child, but I would never even allow him to stay alone.
Like maybe supervised visits, but nothing more than that.
All right.
So I will tell you why your defenses keep reactivating.
Your defenses keep reactivating because you don't feel safe.
Now there's two reasons why you wouldn't feel safe.
Either A, you are safe, but you don't feel that way, or B, you're not safe.
And therefore your emotions are going to be reactivated.
Your defenses are going to be reactivated because you're not in fact safe.
So with regards to abusive people in your life, both past and present, are you safe at the moment?
Are you free of abusive, negative, malign, evil intentions?
Well, physically, I'm safe.
And I think...
Yeah, I guess.
Okay, so the physical part doesn't matter.
Yeah, I know.
Because no, listen, the emotional defenses, like once you're physically beaten up, your emotional defenses have failed.
So emotional defenses don't actually have much to do with physical abuse.
They're all designed to prevent physical abuse.
Right?
Because if you see someone in a bad mood, the whole point of the emotional defenses is to try and appease or avoid that person who's in a bad mood so they don't end up hitting you.
Or torturing you in some malign manner, right?
So the physical danger, like once you're being beaten up...
You know, diplomacy ends when the war begins, you understand?
Prevention ends when the disease is there, right?
And so your emotional defenses are around scanning for danger and so the fact that you're free of physical abuse at the moment, which is great obviously, is not foundational because it was all about prevention.
So it's the signs that could potentially lead to physical abuse that are the real danger.
That's what your defense is focused on.
Well, I guess I'm still, I'm treading very, very carefully.
I would see emotionally a lot of contact.
I mean, almost all contact I see as a potential danger with new people and people who, like I know, wouldn't physically hurt me, but I do interpret their intentions often negatively, even like if it's in the tone of their voice or in the look on their face or things.
I do expect negative emotional reaction from people than positive.
Right.
Other than like kids and dogs, I think kids.
Now, let me ask you this.
Are you right in that?
In other words, have you patched betrayals as an adult?
Have you had people who've harmed you as adults who you initially trusted or things like that?
Oh, of course not.
I'm sorry?
Of course not.
Of course not.
Yeah.
You've not had betrayal as an adult.
Well, I had some disagreements and some fights, but like proper, proper betrayal.
Wait, so you just introduced two extra words there called proper, proper?
I don't know what they mean, but are you saying that you've never had harsh treatment from a friend?
You've never trusted someone who turned out to be less than trustworthy?
I mean, come on, everyone's had that, right?
Okay, yeah, I think I've, like, trusted some people, but I didn't... It wasn't on the level, like, I experienced earlier, I think.
I'm a bit confused now.
I think I... I might have, like... Oh, I had bad treatment, like, at work, actually, if I remember it well.
I had people, like...
like mistreat me when I just started working like very condescending and like looking down on you just because I don't know you're younger or something in the lower position but I remember I turned down a job because that woman like she was interviewing me once and twice oh yeah and the other okay now you got me got me remembering Yeah, I think in my first two jobs and one job I rejected eventually.
Yeah, those people were quite big jackasses and mistreating me and insulting me.
But I wouldn't call it betrayal, I would say insulting and maybe mistreating.
Well, I'm not annoyed that.
I mean, it is a bit of a betrayal because you didn't take that job on the assumption that that was going to happen, right?
I mean, they put their best foot forward to get you to work there.
And then I assume they didn't do that in the interview.
Otherwise, you wouldn't have.
Yeah, in the interview, they were all nice and sweet.
Right, so that's a betrayal, right?
So they put a false front forward and then when you get under their power or under their control or under their reward and punishment system, then they abuse that power, right?
So that counts, doesn't it?
Okay, yeah, I just need to kind of learn how to classify these things because I tend to kind of maybe minimize it in these cases.
Right.
Okay.
Are you in a situation at work or in your social life or in your family of origin life where you need significant caution when you're around people?
Well, that will be only in my, like, childhood.
Primary family.
That's the reason why I don't go, although my grandma has been insisting on me coming to see her and crying that she wants to see me before she dies.
I haven't, I'm proud of that, like I haven't seen her in Four years, I think.
Yeah, it's been four years, and she tells me that often, that, you know, she's going to die, I'm not going to see her, and I just say I can't.
And I think if I had gone, like, previously, if I... My father's mom, where my dad is, and my grandma, I would have to, like, really, like, tiptoe, and I would feel as if I'm, like, screaming and dying inside.
With my mom, It's... Yeah, that happens with her, I guess.
I would...
I'm more, I'm harsher now.
I think I say things that I dislike more often than before.
Before I would just be quiet and say, OK, like she's doing that.
OK, I don't mind.
I don't pay attention to that.
But now, although I still sometimes notice, like I say, you're not listening or like you're repeating things.
But do you talk much about the past or your history or what happened in your childhood with your mom?
No, we don't talk about that.
It's I think it's not just it's first of all for a long time that was a thing that I couldn't handle and when I was able to when I confronted her with that like confession note um I think she has I have the same thing as she does but she has it like she has never really addressed that in any kind of way so so she she also couldn't she she stuttered she she couldn't speak and she
started crying and okay so so hang on okay so this is sort of a moral thing right and this is something people don't recognize too much and so i'm going to try and make it as clear as possible i know you'll get it pretty quickly but just this is also other people as well right so okay you are not in a situation of safety melena
or anyone if you're in relationships where you have to lie. - Okay.
Where you have to pretend things that happened didn't happen, where you have to shut up, where you have to be silenced, where you have to bite your tongue, where you have to dissociate, where you have to abandon yourself and your history and your inner child and all that happened in the past.
You are not in a secure relationship if you allow the shadow of other people's dysfunction To pass and stand guard between you and your basic integrity, called honesty.
Don't be in relationships where you have to lie.
Because that is saying, I will burn my integrity for the sake of appeasing terrible, terrible people.
Do not be in relationships where you can't tell the truth.
It's a submission.
It's a subjugation.
It's trauma.
Because you couldn't tell the truth as a child either, right?
And now you're in relationships where you can't tell the truth.
I will not stay in relationships where I cannot tell the truth.
I'll tell the truth.
And if people don't want to be around me when I tell the truth, it's like, well, I'm sorry about that, but you're not getting between me and honesty.
So this is what I'm asking.
How many relationships do you have where you can't tell the truth?
Well, every relationship I have with every member of my family, I guess.
You guess?
Absolutely.
See, that's you telling me something and then your family adding, I guess, to gaslight me, right?
Exactly.
So why would you want to be in a relationship where you can't tell the truth?
Tell me what's in it for you.
What's the benefit?
It's not that I want, it's like I would feel guilty if I weren't or something.
I broke friendships before and I'm not in touch with some people that I used to be in touch and that didn't fall so difficult.
It didn't take much effort to do it.
But with family, I try.
I limit contact, but that's not enough.
I'm still actually attached.
Are you aware, Milena, consciously, that you are in relationships where you have to completely falsify your history and your experience with people?
Like, are you aware how much you lie?
And listen, please understand, I'm not saying you're a liar, I'm not saying that you love to lie, or you get off on lying, I'm just... But the simple empirical fact is that if you have this kind of history, and in order to be around people you have to shut the hell up about it, then you have to falsify your entire experience, right?
And in fact, you have to falsify the entire relationship.
It's not even a relationship.
Because you're there not to pursue a positive, you're there to avoid a negative, which is inflicted on you by other people.
Like, if I run a store in Little Italy and the Mafia comes by and says, pay us $500 a month or $5,000 a month and we'll burn down your store, I don't think of them as business partners, right?
It's just like, yeah, well, I don't want them to burn down my store, so I'll pay them off.
But it's not a business relationship, it's just a shakedown, right?
Yeah, avoiding the negative.
I think that would be my autobiography title.
So are you aware that You have to lie when you're in contact with these people.
You have to falsify your entire existence and the only reason you're there is not because of the value they bring to you in the present or in the past, but simply because they've installed a guilt button on you and society has been happy to help them.
They've installed a guilt button on you and if they push that guilt button you'll feel terrible in the same way that the mafia threatens to burn down your store so you'll pay them off.
So that they don't burn down your store.
But you don't... Like, if you have the Mafia threatening to burn down your store, you're at least honest with yourself about that and say, well, I don't like the Mafia.
I don't like the fact that they want to burn down my store.
I don't want my store to get burned down, so I'll pay them off.
But you don't go over and say, hey, my friend, my buddy, my, you know, whatever, right?
The only relationship you have is because they're threatening you, whether it's the Mafia or, in this case, your family of origin.
Where's the plus?
You can't even be honest with them.
And I don't think, I can't, I can't, like, nothing you've told me would indicate likable qualities.
I mean, would you be friends with a child abuser who had seven abortions?
Just some person you meet at a party?
Sorry, go ahead.
I can tell my dad, because we no longer live in the same city, but it's like an hour away, and he wanted to come multiple times, and I can reject him.
I can say, don't come.
No, you're not rejecting him.
You're manipulating him, Milena, and that's what I want you to stop doing.
Because you're lying to him about why you're not seeing him.
Right?
You're making up excuses, you're avoiding, you're putting things off, right?
There's a surefire way to get him to stop calling, and that's just tell him the damn truth.
I want to say, like, I tell him that I don't want him to come.
I'm not making excuses, like, I'm not here.
I can... Okay, and then he says, why don't you want me to come?
And what do you say?
I said I would not enjoy it.
so I would not feel comfortable with him being here and what does he say then he Well, he just says, okay.
He doesn't really go to ask why.
I think he gets the points.
Now, if you were, let's just say you could be consequence-free honest, right?
You could just be honest and there would be no negative consequences.
And your father calls up and says he wants to come over.
or what would you say to him if you could be perfectly honest with him? - Stay away from me.
Why?
I'm your father.
No, you've never been my father, actually.
Not true.
Other than biologically.
You're half my DNA.
I was around when you were growing up.
I'm your father.
What are you talking about?
I don't see you as my father.
I don't have any emotions connected to you or I don't, I don't love you.
Why not?
Because you were always treating me badly or just neglecting me.
And then you come up with a bunch of positive things that he did, right?
I mean, I'm sure there's a few, right?
Wow.
And look, so things were tough.
It was Serbia.
It was the 80s and 90s.
It was a terrible time.
I grew up in this horrible dictatorship.
I had a terrible childhood myself.
Not everything can be perfect.
We've got to forgive.
We've got to move on.
We've got to build something new.
I mean, I'm sorry for things that happened in the past.
I wish things had been different.
I wish I'd known more.
But I mean, good heavens, you think you had a bad childhood?
I won't even bore you with how terrible my childhood was.
but we've got to move on and find some light at the end of the tunnel of these kinds of things.
That's too late.
Thank you.
Thank you.
But you've not even talked to me about issues or problems that you have.
How can you just ditch me without even Talking to me and giving any chance to have a conversation.
I tried talking.
I cried in front of him once when I was in my first therapy and he wanted to see me and he insisted that we talk in person and I finally accepted and I sobbed and I broke down in a cafe and he was just, I mean,
I think he might have had a tear or two, but he never... I was like his daughter breaking down in front of him, just sobbing and shaking, and he didn't even come to hug me or... He just said, I understand.
Like, I don't fucking need you to understand.
I need you to take responsibility.
Right.
So then if that happened, and that was what?
Six, seven years ago?
That was 2005.
14 years ago.
All right.
So then he would say, look, we talked about it.
And I listened.
And I sympathized.
And I said that I didn't know that there was more.
I mean, if you don't bring things up with me, how am I supposed to know?
You talked about it.
You've done therapy.
And I'm glad.
And I can't read your mind.
If you don't bring things up with me, I can't be held responsible for things you're not even telling me.
Well, maybe you could have asked, you could have noticed it.
I was a child, you were the parent.
Okay, so you want me to do something different.
You want me to do something differently.
Then let's meet.
We'll talk about it and I'll figure out what you need me to do differently and I'll do it.
I'm here.
I'm at your mercy.
I'm happy to change.
I'm ready to change.
One chance.
I don't know.
Just... I...
I don't know what to say.
It's tough, right?
I mean, when people really want something from you and they're willing to make any kind of promises and willing to take pretend responsibility, right?
I mean, I can tell you where that roleplay went astray.
Where?
Well, First of all, you weren't willing to say, look, you were a child abuser.
You abused me, you abused my brothers, you abused my mother for 20 years.
Until I got out.
Like, why on earth would I want to have someone who laid waste to the first 20 years of my life?
This is absolutely evil.
Absolutely immoral.
And there's no reparations that are possible.
None.
Because Reparations are, hey, I dented your car.
Okay, I'll pay to get your car fixed and pay you a little extra for your time until it evens out.
Like, you're not happy that I dented your car, but at least you're not totally unhappy, right?
So there's restitution.
But there's some things there's no restitution for.
There's no restitution for destroying someone's childhood, right?
You can't fix that.
You can't go back.
There's no fixing that, right?
The burdens that you have to carry is the result of how you were parented.
Well, the parent's number one job, keep the children safe.
You got concussions, you got punched in the face, you're stabbing doors like you're in a situation of extreme physical danger.
Half your damn childhood!
Failed at the basic job!
Not only failed, but, I mean, failure is, again, saying it's a failure is an insult to the word failure.
So I was trapped with a child abuser for 20 years.
Why on earth would I want to have anything to do with you?
Now that's a hell of a thing to say.
I'm not saying that's easy.
I'm not saying that's an easy thing to say.
And I'm also not saying that that's exactly what you think and feel, obviously.
I don't know.
But from what you've told me, that would be a pretty honest statement to make, wouldn't it?
Yeah, absolutely.
Even now I see how he treats his second wife, and I even feel sorry for her.
Yeah, she's an adult.
She chose.
You didn't choose.
Okay.
No, she chose to be with this guy.
She knows his history.
Or she's avoiding asking.
I mean, if you don't want to be with an abuser, just call up his kids and say, hey, how was he growing up?
You'd probably have told her, right?
Yeah.
What's he like?
No, she didn't ask.
No, of course she didn't.
She probably wants resources.
Maybe he's high status.
Maybe he's good looking.
Maybe whatever.
Maybe she's codependent.
Now also, when your father, in the roleplay, and of course, I don't know your dad so I'm just making it up as I go along, but in the roleplay, your father then offered to do whatever you want, right?
Now that is a real trap.
It's a real trap because it sounds generous, but it's really terrible.
It's a terrible thing to say to someone, I will do whatever you want, It's like a rollover playing victim when you're actually trying to dominate the other person.
Because if I've known you, right, you're in your late 20s, so if I'm your father and I've known you for close to three decades and I have no idea what you want, I'm a terrible father.
Like if I just say, hey, just tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it.
It sounds like someone's being really kind and generous, but what they're doing is they're confessing that they have no idea what you want as a human being.
And they're also gaslighting you and saying, well, see, the problem is that you're not telling me what you want.
I have, he said, I'm not a mind reader, right?
No, you're a parent.
You should be a mind reader because you raised those kids.
I know when my daughter's happy or unhappy.
I know what's going on in her head.
It's not always perfect, but you're supposed to be a mind reader.
It's like, if you have a baby and the baby's crying, I'm not a mind reader.
It's like, Nope, sorry.
That's your job.
You got to figure out what the baby's crying and how to fix it and make the baby more comfortable.
Right?
So it sounds generous, but it's one of the most terrible things you can ever hear in a relationship is when someone says, whatever you need me to do, I'll do it.
Just tell me.
What they're saying is, you're insane.
I have no idea what you need.
But I care about you so much that I'll just do whatever you want, like a slave.
No, they're not being a slave.
They're gaslighting you.
They're telling you that it's all you and that there's no possible way a sane human being could figure out what you want or need.
And you got close to that when you said, well, you could have asked or, you know, we had that time in the cafe and so on.
But anyone who says to you, I'll do whatever you want to save the relationship, It's a chilling, ghastly statement.
Because he should know what the hell you need and want.
He's your father.
I understand that trap, because if he says, I'll do anything you want, then you have that glimmer of hope.
Actually, things might change and I think that's where I... No, when people have wronged you, they need to come up with the solutions.
If you come up for the solutions for people who've wronged you, it's way, way too much ownership.
Way, way too much ownership.
No, the people who've wronged you, once you tell them that they've wronged you and they accept and admit that they've wronged you, then they're the ones who need to come up with the solutions for it, not you.
Because otherwise it's just more bloody work for you.
Hey, you've wronged me, now let me draw up a 22 point plan about how you're going to fix it.
It's like, good lord.
You know, how many sides of the ping pong table do you need to play?
All of them, apparently.
There's no relationship there.
If you have to order people how to be nice to you, they're just confessing that they have no idea how to be nice.
Why the hell would you want anyone like that in your life?
That's a good question.
So yeah, just not... Can you be honest with people?
Can you be honest with people?
And if you can't... See, I mean, to me, if you can't be honest with someone, it's fine as long as you know it.
It doesn't mean you can have a productive relationship, but it's fine to be in the presence of someone if you know you're not going to be honest with them, right?
You know, it doesn't really mess you up.
Let's say you're going slightly over the speed limit and the cop pulls you over.
It's a totally theoretical situation.
Cop pulls you over and you say, oh, I thought I was going the speed limit or I was just following traffic or whatever, right?
Now, maybe you're not being completely directly honest with the policeman.
Not that I'd ever recommend it, but I know that it happens, right?
But maybe you're not being completely, but you're in a situation where, you know, it's really not that big a deal.
I was, you know, I was just passing someone and whatever, right?
Okay.
Technically, were you going over the speed limit?
Yeah, probably.
But you're not traumatized and it doesn't mess you up because you know you're not in a situation where you may be forthcoming if you want to take that approach, right?
But if you're in a situation where you're just around people and you're stifled and you're silenced then you're worse than a slave in that situation because at least the slave knows he's a slave Knows that he's punished for speaking up, knows that he has no control over his life, and has perfectly free to hate his slavery and hate the slave owner.
No, I didn't choose that.
I mean... You didn't choose these parents.
Just this evil stalker dumped you down the damn chimney and then you just have to survive this primitive, feral, insult-to-apes, ape-like environment.
I mean, what a hell of a way to start life!
It's horrible!
It's a horrible way to start life.
Brutality and betrayal and manipulation and control and silence and... Ugh!
It's horrible.
And of course it's the same thing in schools.
That's why a lot of people are traumatized these days.
It's in school you can't tell the truth.
I'm bored.
You're a bad teacher.
This is ridiculous stuff.
I want recess.
I don't like this entire setup.
I don't want to come to school.
I mean, you can say, I guess, a couple of things at home.
You can't say that stuff to the teacher.
So, like our whole lives, when we're children, is lying.
It's all we do.
It's all we do.
We lie.
We're forced to, for the most part.
And then it hurts to learn how to tell the truth, because it's always a stress, I think, in the beginning.
Yeah, I wrote this in my novel about children who decide to become moral explorers of their own environment.
And at one point I say something like, it was a terrible realization how little truth is allowed to a young life.
And it is a terrible realization.
I just talked about this in the shooting, about the shooting in Colorado.
What options?
We can't tell the truth.
We can't sort of sit there to our adults and teachers and leaders and say, the hell are you to lecture us?
You've buried us a million dollars in debt so you can buy votes.
Who the hell are you to lecture us about what's right and what's wrong and what's good and what's bad?
You're mostly terrible human beings.
Most of the teachers are terrible.
The politicians, almost all, are terrible.
The entire system is wretched for children.
And most people don't want to hear anything about traumatized childhood because they're so traumatized themselves that it reactivates them and they just want to shut it down as quickly as possible.
And so you have a choice.
There's only three choices.
There's only three choices and I want to be very clear to you.
There's three choices.
Number one, tell the truth.
Tell the truth and shame the devil.
Tell the truth though the skies fall, which is what I was taught when I was growing up.
Tell the truth though the skies fall.
Tell the truth and shame the devil.
Just tell the truth.
And grit your teeth and get ready for the consequences.
Just tell the truth.
Just tell the truth.
Okay, I'm not gonna let anyone stand between me and honesty.
Fuck them if they want that.
Fuck them if they want that.
If they want me to lie, They're gonna be so deep in the rearview, I'm not gonna see them for Tijuana Smoke.
I mean, no.
Ask me to lie?
Ask me to misrepresent my experience?
Ask me to falsify my entire fucking existence?
No!
Who the hell are you to tell me I can't tell the truth?
I'm telling the truth.
You don't like it?
There's a billion billion billion other people out there who will lie and caress your ego and suck up to your vanity.
So many people out there will just lie to you That if you don't like me telling the truth, it's not like you're out of options for other people.
Tons of other people will tell you lies all the time.
And so you tell the truth.
That's your first choice, right?
Your second choice is to lie consciously and to say, well, I can't tell the truth.
I'm aware that I'm not telling the truth and I'm just going to not tell the truth.
Right?
Now the third option is to lie to yourself so badly that you're in relationships, or lie to yourself so well, that you're in relationships where you have to lie and you don't even know that you're lying.
You don't even know that you're falsifying your existence.
You're just there, but not there.
You have dissolved.
You have become a zombie.
You are death in life.
You are a pulse with silence.
You are life with its tongue ripped out.
And it doesn't even know it.
Now, of those two, telling the truth is the best.
In other words, breathing air is good.
If you lose something in a swimming pool, you can dive in to get it, but then you come up and breathe air again.
You're breathing, you know, but the worst thing is to think you can breathe underwater, because then you fill your lungs with chlorine and you die, right?
So breathe air, dive in knowing you can't breathe the water.
In other words, you may be in a situation where you can't be perfectly honest and you're just aware that you're lying and then you go back to your relationships where you can tell the truth.
But the third, which is the most destructive of all and the most common of all, is to just float around people, talk about bullshit, and never be authentic and never be honest and never be there.
That will erode any capacity you have for a real relationship as fast as a tsunami hitting a sandcastle.
And if you don't know these distinctions, and there's no particular reason you would, because it's not talked about as much as it should be in society, how can you be close to Luka if you're perfectly willing to have relationships where you sacrifice your virtue, your integrity, your honesty, your history?
For the sake of avoiding the negative judgments of evil people.
Because that's really all it comes down to, right?
Avoiding the negative judgments of evil people.
Oh, no.
If I tell the truth, evil people won't like me.
Good.
Good.
That keeps you safe.
Because then evil people don't want to have anything to do with you.
Good.
That's a big added bonus of telling the truth, is that liars don't want to be around you.
Right?
Well, let me ask you this.
Yeah, let me ask you this.
So, I've been yelling and ranting away and asking you difficult questions.
Have you experienced me as dangerous?
No, I know you're not dangerous.
I mean, I know you're well-meaning and it makes sense what you said.
I've had other things, other places where you say that.
Okay, no, but this is important, right?
Because I'm being honest with you, I'm asking difficult questions, I'm making very difficult suggestions, right?
But your defenses are not being activated.
Why?
What's wrong with your defenses?
Why are they not being activated with me yelling and ranting and asking you difficult questions and suggesting very difficult courses of actions?
Why are your defenses not being activated with me?
Because I don't see it as an attack.
I don't experience it as... Why?
Why not?
It's dangerous a little... I mean, I'm not dangerous, but what I'm saying...
Could be unpleasant for you, right?
If you act and do honest and tell the truth and confront people and that's going to be very unpleasant, right?
I know it feels good.
I managed in some less important cases to do that.
And I think it's with the serious ones is that I'm failing.
But I know it's the truth.
I mean, it's not that you are saying what you think.
I know that is the way it is.
Okay, so this is interesting, right?
Because you think that your defenses are to protect you against danger, right?
Yeah.
But what I'm talking about is somewhat dangerous for your short-term peace of mind, right?
Because if you stop appeasing people and you tell the truth, they're going to get mad at you, right?
And it's going to be unpleasant.
But I should be able to tolerate that, shouldn't I?
Well, yes.
I mean, yes.
Or at least you'll be conscious of when you're lying, which is a big step in the right direction.
So then the question is, why does Luca provoke your defenses, but I don't?
What I'm suggesting, I assume, is far more risky than what Luca suggests.
So why do you get crabby and avoidant and negative and cold and all that with him, but not with me?
And again, I know like, I'm not your husband.
But why?
Because some people I tell this to, they completely hit the roof, right?
They'd lose it.
They'd freak out.
So why does all of the truth bombs I'm dropping not provoke your defenses, but Luca does?
What's the difference?
That's an excellent question.
I don't know, maybe he's not telling the truth.
I don't know.
All right, if you could mute for a second, I just want to get back to Luca, if we could, I'd appreciate that.
Okay.
All right.
Luca, what's your answer?
Well, I might be not telling the truth, yeah, because before we started... Okay, you're not allowed to qualify your statements anymore, because it's going to take forever, right?
I might this, somewhat this, you know, just give it to me straight.
Okay, so why do you think I'm not provoking Milena's defenses, but you do?
I haven't told her what you did right now.
in that specific direct tone.
I think that.
Why haven't you done that?
I'm not sure.
I thought she might not do it.
No, no, no.
Come on.
You are sure and it's not that.
So again, just be direct with me, right?
If you had known what I was going to say to Milena, what would you have anticipated her response would be?
She would say that I haven't defooed myself, so why should she when I didn't?
Wait, did you get out of this that I said she should defoo?
Well, that's what I would say.
Listen, I said there were three choices, right?
And, you know, be honest is the best, be aware when you're lying, or be unconscious about lying.
When did I ever say you cannot see your family?
No, no, I think that.
Wait, you think that she should defuse?
Yes.
And why do you think she should defuse?
Sorry, for those who don't know, Fu is family of origin, Di Fu is like when you divorce your family of origin, you don't see them, right, for an abusive relationship.
And I always say, get a therapist, speak to your parents, be honest with them, you know, work as much as you can to connect with them.
But if it doesn't work out, you're free to leave.
Okay, so why do you think that she should... Di Fu?
Her parents are beyond repair, especially the mother.
The father is just a narcissist.
But the mother is... What I complain about Milena being some portion of the time, her mother is always that.
I cannot stand her.
By now I have decided not to see her ever again, no matter what the context.
Okay, so that protects you, but what about Milena?
How does that protect Milena?
Well, that would be... I think I was recoiling from saying that because I would be the jerk who sets up a condition, like either your family or me.
So... Wait, hang on, hang on.
Okay, so this is a lot of what you're saying, and I appreciate this directness.
Okay.
It's not...
Okay, so you're making it binary, right?
Maybe that's the codependent thing.
So you're saying to her, like, I don't want to be the guy who says you have to choose between your family of origin and me, right?
Yeah.
But that's, that's, that's not a fair, right, or moral way to put it.
Because if her family is, like, if she was about to step on a landmine, right?
Yeah.
You wouldn't say, I order you to not step on that landmine.
Sorry, I order you not to take another step.
And if you take another step, I'm going to divorce you.
Yeah, I see.
What are you saying?
I mean, you can appeal to her self-preservation.
You can appeal to her peace of mind.
You can appeal to what is moral.
You can say, listen, I hate seeing you lie.
I hate seeing you falsify your experience.
It's painful for me because I think it's bad for you.
I think it's bad for our relationship.
And it allows history to dominate our possible future.
So why wouldn't you take a moral, because you've listened to me for a year, so you have zero excuses, right?
So why wouldn't you make the moral case and say, when you're around your family of origin, you're not there, you lie, you falsify, you appease, you manipulate, you avoid.
It's gross.
It's bad for you, it's bad for our relationship, and I don't get it.
What's the plus, right?
She said, Oh, well, I feel bad, I feel guilty.
It's like, well, as far as I understand, they were child abusers towards you.
And why would you want to be around people who have to continue to, with whom you continue to self erase, just like you did in the past?
Like, why would you want to, right?
Like, it's not like ultimatum, it's them or me or whatever, right?
I mean, you make a moral case.
So it's not about, so it's not bullying, right?
You know what I mean?
I did that, but not as explicit.
So I've sent her multiple shows of yours where people have similar issue, where you literally repeat what you've been saying tonight.
And that was one of the ways of me conveying that.
And the other way was... Why send her a show rather than tell her yourself?
I did tell...
She will not be able to reconcile them with us.
But I guess that still cover it.
So why not be direct?
What is the problem with being direct with her?
Because look, at this point, you guys are going to split up if you don't, as far as I understand it, right?
What have you got to lose?
I guess part of this call is like, what have you got to lose?
But just in general, like, If you're not direct with her, then you're kind of being like her family.
Because she can't be direct with her family, right?
And her family is not direct with her.
Like being direct with her would be like hey, they would like if her family was being direct with her I'm sorry Milena to talk about you as if you're not in the room But so her family would say to her listen We abused you like hell as a child and it really makes us feel shitty So shut the hell up about it and don't ever bring it up again because our feelings are more important than your happiness, right?
That would be but they're not direct Yes, right.
So so her family is indirect now being indirect is It's being manipulative.
And being indirect provokes her defenses, do you understand?
Yeah.
The reason that I did not provoke her defenses is I'm direct.
And I'm honest.
Yeah.
So if she can't be honest around her family, and you bring that same level of not being direct and honest to her, You're going to trigger her defenses and she's going to shut you out.
Because you're kind of acting like her family, right?
Now please understand I'm not saying you're abusing her like I'm not putting you in the same moral category.
But you're not like She's a strong woman, right?
I mean, what she survived and what she's able to have achieved and she, you know, got out of self-biting and into a social life and she got married and, right?
So, do you think that she can't handle the truth?
Do you think that she, like, if you direct with her, what do you think is gonna happen?
Well, I might, well, yeah.
Because I'm not claiming here to be the right one.
So I have my part of the equation.
So there's stuff that I do not control.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't, don't, don't fog me.
Don't fog me.
Okay.
Were her parents child abusers?
Yes.
Is she permitted to discuss that with them?
They would dismiss that.
So no.
So her parents were child abusers in horrendous ways.
Horrendous ways.
I mean the fact that she ended up mutilating herself with her teeth is... it's a symptom of just how bad she had it, right?
As a child.
So her parents are horrendous child abusers who still demand Omereta, they demand the code of silence from her now, right?
So they're continuing the abuse, which is, yeah, we abused you, so shut the hell up about it, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So that's not a perspective.
That's not an opinion.
That's a fact, right?
Yes.
So telling her that would be to help her, right?
To help her get clarity on her situation, right?
Yeah.
I hate to put it this harshly, but why don't you love her enough to help her get clarity on the situation?
What is your caution?
What is your concern?
What do you think is going to happen if you tell her the truth?
That is my concern.
I actually do not love her, but I'm owed to.
I stepped in into this mode of white knighting without actually... because I have my own predisposition to do stuff like that.
So I'm afraid I was not sincere enough in the first place.
What was your fear?
I appreciate that.
What was your fear of the outcome?
What do you think happens if you tell her the truth in the way that I did today?
What is your fear?
What happens then if you tell her that?
Well, I'm not sure, but... Yes, you are.
Do you want me to tell you?
Do you want me to tell you?
Yeah, please.
Okay.
The reason that you can't tell her the truth is because you couldn't tell your own mother the truth.
Because when you would tell your own mother the truth, your own mother, I don't even know your history, but I know enough to know this, that if you told your own mother the truth, your own mother would blow up and punish you viciously, violently, aggressively, abusively in some manner.
So you've gotten this habit of being indirect with people, right?
Yeah.
Which is a perfectly defensive and rational habit, right?
But you see how, without being, like if you want to break the cycle with Milena, if you want to break the cycle with your history, Luca, it means be direct.
Because strong people, confident people, free people can be direct.
But if you treat her as if she's your mother, she's gonna end up treating you like you're her father.
You understand?
Right.
So if you're like pussyfooting around with her and being indirect and sending her shows rather than being blunt, then you're treating her as if she's as volatile as your mother, right?
So naturally, she's then going to end up treating you as if you're as volatile as her father.
Yes.
And neither of you is treating each other with the respect and directness that free, sovereign adults deserve.
Right.
And here's the thing too.
Your fears of abandonment or rejection is why you couldn't be direct with your mother, right?
Because the only reason we're not direct with people is we feel that they're going to reject us, right?
Why are we not direct with shitty teachers?
Because they'll fail us, right?
That's what makes them shitty teachers.
They'll take it personally and punish us, right?
Why are we not direct with abusive parents?
Because they'll abuse us.
Right?
Why are some people not direct with the cops?
They don't want a ticket.
So, here's the thing.
Your fear of being rejected and abandoned has caused you to act in a manner that has you poised to be rejected and abandoned, right?
Because your marriage is going to fail if you don't change, right?
Right.
Yeah.
And this is how we know That it's the Simon the Boxer thing from Real Time Relationships.
So for those who don't know, it's a story I have in my book Real Time Relationships about a guy who's beaten up as a child who becomes a boxer.
Why does he become a boxer?
You'd say, well, you were beaten up.
Why would you want to be beaten up as an adult?
It's because the only sense of control that he has is control over the pain of being beaten.
That's the only sense.
So he doesn't want to give up control.
So he continues to manage that pain of being beaten by becoming a boxer as an adult.
It's a repetition compulsion explanation.
So in this case, because you feared rejection by your mother, so you couldn't be direct with her, you're being indirect with your wife, thus provoking her rejection of you.
So the abandonment issue is being fulfilled, not solved, by this indirectness, right?
By treating your wife as your mother, you're triggering her rejection of you, which is the worst thing you feared from your mother, and it's going to come true if you continue to be false with your wife.
Yeah.
Now, I don't know what happens to your marriage if you're direct, but I sure as hell know what happens if you're not, right?
Yeah, well, this is the right step right now.
I'm sorry?
The show.
Well, the show that we are doing is a step toward that thing.
Because I didn't know that.
I needed you to break that for me.
Sure.
Look, people can say, oh my gosh, you've listened to the show for 10 years.
It's one thing to read a recipe book.
It's another thing to become a cook, right?
Yeah.
Can we just switch back to Milena for a sec?
Yes.
Milena?
Yep, I'm here.
How am I doing?
You're doing great.
I mean, am I in the right neck of the woods?
Well, you have a great insight.
And I don't think his I mean, his mom has some characteristic of mine.
And it's I don't think his mom is a good person and if I don't know if he would be okay if I illustrate the point why I think she's not a good person.
Oh wait, you didn't just ask for permission to be honest in this call, did you?
Because I'm going to throw myself off if you just did that and we don't want to end that conversation that way, do we?
Sorry, sorry.
It's just what was on my mind.
Tell me about his mom.
But it's a touchy subject which really hurt me and I didn't really, I wasn't honest with him about what I thought about the situation.
Good, now be honest with him.
Get the touchy subject.
You know what's a touchy subject?
Getting divorced.
You know, that's touchy, that's painful, that's horrible, that's hideous.
You guys, I mean, I don't know if he did, but you certainly went through a divorce.
Don't, I know you don't have kids yet, but don't do that.
So take what I'm saying, be blunt, be honest.
You've got nothing to lose.
Your marriage is going to crack if you're dishonest anyway.
So just be honest.
You've got nothing to lose.
Okay.
Well, he didn't say that, he didn't write that, but his dad died many years ago.
He was killed in a war and the anniversary of his death was on January 5th.
And January 5th is close to January 7th, which is Christmas in Serbia.
Now, why is that important?
Luka wanted to go and visit his father's grave for the second time in his life because it's in another country and he doesn't go there ever.
He went only once because he had to.
His family never organizes any trip together to memorize that.
When he pushed for it, he wanted to go and see his father's grave on the day of his death.
His mom said, it's too close to Christmas.
The Serbian Christmas.
It's inconvenient.
And his brother said it's cold because it's January.
And I swallowed such a rock in my throat because I wanted to go and slap them both because for fuck's sake, it's the day of his death and you are not doing that because of some inconvenience.
How disconnected?
They are from him and like I don't know if they saw his need because he really wanted to do it even earlier and then he really now insisted on it and we went together and I didn't want to sound like you know talking against his mom or something but I just couldn't understand and I think from that day I cannot have a conversation with her.
I just want to slap her.
I just want to just Just throw her out because how can you not have an iota of affection to do that?
How divorced from reality and your family you are?
It's not a family.
Even if they don't agree with it, it's what Luca wants and it's so facilitated, right?
It's not like he wants to go and kidnap a goat or something.
I mean, he wants to visit his father's grave at a time when you guys were talking about having kids.
So fatherhood is going to be in his mind and perfectly healthy.
Absolutely.
So you didn't tell him the truth about this, right?
I saw how difficult he was and how hard it was for him to go there and be there.
And I just, I wasn't honest.
So you weren't protecting him either.
You weren't watching his back.
Yeah.
And see, here's the thing, and this is for both of you and for everyone out there.
If you keep treating each other like children, you'll never escape your childhoods.
Assume that he can handle the truth as you see it.
It's not going to break him.
What breaks him is avoidance.
Because whenever we avoid topics, first of all, if you're married, you know.
You know when your partner is avoiding a topic with you.
Of course you do.
It weakens him.
When you think he's weak, Milena, it weakens him.
He knows what's going on in your head.
You guys have been together for three years.
You've fingerprinted each other's brains pretty damn well.
So he knows what's going on in your head, and he knows that you're avoiding telling him something because you think he can't handle it, and that makes him weaker.
You know, we get this incredible... When we get together with someone, particularly when we get married, we become very much dependent upon that other person's perspective of us.
That's the strength and weakness of marriage, or friendship, or whatever, right?
So if you think he can't handle the truth, he gets that.
He internalizes that.
And it weakens him.
And if he thinks you can't handle the truth, then he views you as fragile and weak and made of glass and hysterical and neurotic and it's like, well then, We become what those who love us believe we are.
I mean, we just do.
I mean, there's no giant, massive, independent personality that can escape the judgment of those in our lives.
We are, to some degree, to a very large degree, we are a manifestation of other people's beliefs of us.
And if you guys are treating each other as weak and fragile and neurotic, you can't respect each other.
If you can't respect each other, you can't love each other.
Don't let your parents win.
Don't let your history win.
Don't let Serbia win.
Don't let the war win.
Don't let the narcissists win.
Don't let the abusers win.
Fuck them.
Tell the truth.
Treat each other with respect and strength.
You'll make it.
Thanks.
I mean, I needed that to hear because you're right, I treated him as if he was weak and I convinced myself that I'm protecting him from me and I'm making things worse.
Yeah, you're treating him as if he's allergic to the truth, as if the truth is some sort of predator that's going to take him down and debilitate him.
And that's particularly bad for a woman to do.
Because you need him to be strong in the world.
If you're going to have kids, right?
You need him to be strong in the world.
You need him to be a protector.
It's one thing to be more tender with your wife.
And I don't recommend it as a whole.
Women can handle the truth.
But it's one thing going one way.
And it's another thing going another way.
And it's particularly bad for a marriage if the wife perceives the man as weak.
If she treats him as if he's weak.
It is really bad, really bad for the marriage as a whole.
It's sort of like promiscuity, like men can survive promiscuity a little bit better than women can.
And you need him to be able to handle the truth.
You need him to be strong.
Because if you're going to have babies, you're putting yourself in a very vulnerable position.
And you need him to care about you enough to keep you safe.
safe.
So that's my advice.
Now you can have a great conversation where you can tell... See, here's the terrible thing, you know, there's an old saying, I think it was Norman Mailer, he says, you never know your wife until you meet her in court, which is a horrible, terrible statement, but I'll tell you what it's meant by.
You've heard of this?
I haven't heard it.
It's horrible.
I think it was him.
He stabbed his wife with a knife and said, well, as long as you're only using a knife, there's still some love left.
I mean, it's horrible stuff.
But why is it that people get so vicious in divorce?
Because they can finally tell all the truths that they didn't tell during the marriage.
And that's why the marriage failed.
And so don't end up telling each other the truth in divorce.
Tell each other the truth in marriage and don't get divorced because that's what keeps you together is the truth and the courage and the respect of each other to tell it.
Yeah. - That's most of what I wanted to say, Is there anything else you guys wanted to mention?
Well, I don't know.
Okay, if we're going to tell the truth, okay, let me listen to your advice.
I kind of, I feel that I think that I might have hogged most of the time now because I ended up speaking like for the biggest part of it.
I don't know.
No, no, no, no.
You didn't just do that.
No, no, no, no, no.
I'm glad you just did that.
But don't do that.
Because now you're speaking on behalf of Luca, right?
Yeah.
So that's treating him with a lack of respect, Luca.
I know that we didn't talk to you as much as we talked to Milena, Luca, but was it a useful conversation for you?
Very much so, yeah.
All right.
So, Milena, Luca can speak for himself.
He's an adult.
Okay.
Don't be over-solicitous and over-concerned because, again, that's emasculating him.
If he's frustrated, he can either tell me now or he can send me an email later or we can talk about it another time.
But don't assume that somehow you've hogged something.
It's up to... I mean, he's been a listener for 10 years.
I knew that.
So I don't know your history.
I don't know your level of self-knowledge.
I get it into the call.
And I'm talking to both of you the whole time anyway.
So don't say, well, you know, I've been hogging in and I don't think Luca, if you were going to say, I don't think Luca got enough time.
No, no, no.
That's stepping over and putting your hand up his ass and turning him into a Milena puppet, right?
Okay.
He's fine.
If he's dissatisfied, he's a big boy.
He can tell me himself, right?
And Luca, are you okay?
Are you dissatisfied?
Yeah, yeah I am.
Wait, yes you are or no you're not?
Yes, yes.
You are dissatisfied?
I'm satisfied.
You are satisfied, okay.
I'm fine if you weren't, but... Right.
All right, so my suggestion is stop talking to me.
And talk to each other.
And just tell all the truths.
And be there for each other.
Be direct.
And you guys can find love in the truth.
All you'll find in avoidance is the end of the road.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Will you keep me posted?
Yes.
Excellent.
Great job, guys.
That was a great conversation.
Thank you so much.
Absolutely.
I really appreciate your conversation.
Bye.
Thank you, too.
You might want to know An homage to you.
She didn't like you when I first introduced your show to her.
I have that effect.
My goal is not to be likable first time, my goal is to be likable down the road.
I understand that.
And Milena, we're okay now?
We're okay?
As far as like, yeah, I'm not saying you have to like me, but you know, you don't dislike me too much?
No, you grow on people.
I grow on people.
That's the best thing.
I'm like some kind of fungus.
All right.
Well, thanks guys.
Keep me posted and thanks again.
Will do.
Thank you so much.
- Thank you so much. - Bye. - Well, thank you so much for enjoying this latest free domain show on philosophy.
And I'm going to be frank and ask you for your help, your support, your encouragement, and your resources.
Please like, subscribe, and share, and all of that good stuff to get philosophy out into the world.
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