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April 22, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:34:19
PhD or Baby? Freedomain Call In
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Time Text
I'm here with Sarah.
Sarah, what's going on?
How can I help?
Oh man, okay.
So, sort of like I said in the message, I just feel like what I want out of life and like the actions that I'm doing just aren't lining up and I'm not sure how to like align them, I guess.
It's like the overall big picture.
And you were with a guy for four years and how long ago did the relationship end?
Um, two months now.
I'm so sorry.
That's, I mean, that is a huge investment.
And I just, I'm so sorry about that.
Um, how did, uh, did, did, were things bad for a while and then it kind of came to a head or, or how did it end?
Yeah.
So probably, I guess like a little bit of both.
It's always been like really not, it's not always, but it's been a lot of like back and forth for a few times.
Like we'd broken up twice before and gotten back together over not the same issues but like similar ones um but then after like any time apart we would like always independently come to the conclusion that like we were good for each other and like we would try again um but i guess like at the like this this last time it just became like too much like he couldn't and like i totally understand that like he couldn't put up with
That type of back and forth or like that kind of needing to wait for me to catch up and things like that.
It's just like a lot of investment.
That's some big stuff right there.
Back and forth and waiting for me to catch up.
It's like, I don't know what any of that means.
Yeah.
Sorry.
I guess I'm being vague.
I guess I'm not sure where to start and how to keep things like personal.
Oh, you're trying to manage the conversation rather than have a conversation.
Sorry.
That's all right.
No, listen.
I mean, you're going for a PhD.
It's understandable that you might be interested in managing the situation, so I can understand that.
So in the past, when you broke up, what was it regarding?
A lot of the same things.
The time before, we were doing distance as we had been before, but I'd just become really cold and really Just kind of, I don't know if it's okay to swear on your show.
You can swear.
Okay.
I just came like really bitchy.
And like the, like whenever we would talk, like I would have like a certain tone that was like really like untenable and just like uncaring.
Just not all the time, but just like enough and like enough of the times that it was just like unacceptable.
It was just like, obviously you can't like be mean or like, Cold to your partner for an extended period of time without apologizing or giving a reason.
And I guess I wasn't doing either of those types of things.
So I would imagine that the bitchiness, as you call it, had something to do with him coming between you and your ambitions?
It was at least the perception of that, that he wasn't Like I said, the perception of him not being supportive because he wanted something more out of life and I wasn't integrating.
That's fascinating.
Let's dig into this because I think there's a lot of people out there who have questions.
I'm one of them.
What does it mean for you when you say, be supportive?
Or what does it mean when you ask a man to be supportive?
Yeah.
For me, I would say supportive would come primarily in the form of emotional support, like trying to understand or trying to help work through things emotionally.
I know it doesn't mean just like, oh, just pick up and don't, what is it, shut up and put up with the stuff that I'm doing.
I know that's not what support is, and that's what I was asking for, but real support is Understanding and working through the events and things that are upcoming, I guess.
I mean, I'm afraid you do get the 2019 award for fakeness so far at Freedom8.
That is some hedged language.
I feel like I'm I'm like one of General Flynn's lawyers talking to the Mueller investigation or something like that.
Oh, no.
I don't mean to be like that.
Okay, so what was the issue that you felt you needed most support on?
Did he ever complain that you were guarded?
That I was guarded?
Yeah, I think he would say that.
Do you feel at all tense in this conversation just out of curiosity?
I've been nervous about this.
I don't mean to be guarded, but I know that I am.
Right.
No, and listen, I understand that.
I mean, everything's fine as long as we're aware of what's happening, right?
Because it certainly doesn't feel like we're having a very spontaneous conversation.
It feels like you're evaluating every question, every angle, every response, and then neutralizing it to the point of non-communication.
Yeah, I've been known to do that.
See, there it is again.
You really are committed to this way of being.
Listen, and this is good stuff in a way, right?
The fact that you're careful, the fact that you evaluate is one of the reasons why your academic career is doing well, right?
Yeah, I'd say so.
It's kind of what like probably drew me towards it.
Right.
What fields are you studying in?
Biochemistry.
It's like life sciences.
Right, right.
The study of life, not necessarily the spontaneous living of it, but all right, all right.
So was it challenges in your program that was the main request for support in your relationship?
There are definitely more challenges and there are still challenges in the program that I'm in.
And I think probably...
Part of the problem was I was making that and this, like, that program, like, way too much of my focuses and, like, too much of my challenges to the point where, like, real life issues or, like, real life outside of work, like, were being squelched.
So it was both like... Was it that you were working too much in your program or that your program was dominating your mind and your relationship too much or was it both?
Both.
Yeah.
And so how many hours a week would you put into your program?
All the time.
Including like talking about it and working on it in classes and all.
I mean, definitely over like a regular work, like over full time, probably like 50, Hours a week plus.
50 hours a week plus?
Plus what?
It would depend on the week, I guess.
So a bare minimum of 50, but what would it go up to?
Maybe like 60.
And now does that include also it churning in your brain outside of the regular work schedule?
No.
I'm not sure how to evaluate that.
Would you?
I mean, so if you're asking for support from your boyfriend, I assume that the program is also taking up a fair amount of mind space outside of the work that you're putting into it, right?
The director work.
Definitely, but I would at least try to at least like when I was home or like with him to like not be thinking or working on those things, I guess.
And you were living together, is that right?
Yeah, for a while.
So part of this is when I came to PhD, he was still in school, but the school that we had met at and he was still attending has a period where he could do an internship.
So he came and did an internship in the same city where I was going to school for a year.
So we were living together during that year.
So only one out of the four years, is that right?
Yeah.
And was it the last year and you were living together when you broke up?
No, we were not living together when we broke up.
He went back to school and then we were doing distance for a while and that really like highlighted a lot of the issues that we were having.
And would you say that you needed more support in your avocation or did he need more support or was it about equal?
He needed, he gave a lot of support.
Like he gave support when like I wasn't asking for it, when I was like, Pushing away when I was trying to do more work, he would pull me out of that and help with emotional stability.
It was definitely like I wasn't giving enough into the relationship.
Like I wasn't giving enough to him into our relationship.
I mean, I hate to use that phrase, high maintenance, because it sounds like you're some woman in a Cars video.
And it also seems to indicate instability and that's not really what the case was here as far as I understand it.
It's just that you were wrestling with some, I assume, some significant emotional challenges in the program and needed a lot of holding up.
Is that a fair way to put it or is that too harsh?
I don't think it's harsh at all.
I think... So it should be harsher?
You could be harsher.
I wouldn't take... I guess high maintenance is not...
Probably emotional, like high emotional maintenance.
I would not be opposed to characterizing myself as that, so totally fine.
And was it kind of like a part-time job for him, keeping you going in your program?
That's an interesting way to think about it.
At least, I don't know about me and the program, but probably like helping take care of Me as a person.
It was definitely more work than maybe he expected.
So there was taking care of you as a person outside of just the program, and what do you mean by that?
Um, it's hard to explain.
I guess just because, like, I wouldn't say that I'm emotionally unstable, because that's like a lot to evaluate as, but I don't know.
I guess it's hard to explain.
Well, let's ask about symptoms.
Did you have anxiety or depression or sleeplessness or anything like that that made functioning in your career or in your academic program extra hard?
Yeah, I've been diagnosed clinically with Anxiety and depression before, um, that is hard to manage sometimes.
And what happens when you get anxious and or depressed?
Um, usually I like don't address it, which is comes to the point, which comes to the part where like, I was sort of like, I had expectations that he would help me deal with those things.
Cause I would have a hard time dealing with it myself.
And like, we had talked about those types of things before and like, I, sort of asked for help on that type of stuff, but that's like hard to, you can't just expect other people to do that for you, and I definitely felt a lot of that.
He's not a therapist, right?
No, he's not.
So asking him to manage significant issues, obviously not crippling because you're functioning and all that, but significant issues like anxiety and depression, I mean, I don't want to, you know, if you had some sort of infection, you wouldn't expect your Amateur boyfriend to manage that.
You go see a doctor, right?
So asking people to help with mental... I hate mental health.
You're not crazy, right?
So I don't want to use any of this kind of language.
It's like a mental health thing.
That's fine.
Okay, so yeah, just so you know.
But if you're having these kinds of challenges, that's pretty significant stuff.
I don't know, were you doing any kind of talk therapy?
Yeah, I was going to therapy.
But were you doing any kind of talk therapy while you were in the program?
Okay.
And was that helping?
It was for a while.
And then it sort of became not helpful.
I'm not really sure why.
Right.
So with combined with therapy, I don't know if he or she gave you sort of assignments outside.
That was when I was in therapy.
That's what I got assignments.
So with the therapist, plus the assignments you're doing outside, plus the support of your boyfriend, how many resources were keeping you afloat, so to speak, in your program?
Like how many hours a week do you think people or you were devoting to keeping that going?
Like three to five.
And what was that split up between you and your boyfriend and your therapist?
I'd be like a therapist a week, like one hour a week.
And then other stuff just between... I actually didn't have that many assignments from her, but I have all these books that I was reading and talking about with him and journaling and stuff like that.
I have a feeling it's more than three to five hours a week, but again, don't let me tell you.
I have a bad evaluation of time.
That does not sound like a relationship shredding commitment.
So, yeah.
So what would you think?
For time?
No, just in terms of time.
Yeah.
I'm just trying to figure out, um, the resources that you were consuming to keep yourself in the program.
I don't know how to evaluate that, I guess.
Okay, so an hour of therapy, a couple hours of reading books a week?
Yeah, reading books or talking and journaling like between those.
And so if you add all that up in a week, what was that?
Do you think?
Just roughly?
I don't know how to change.
I feel like five hours a week is like probably Actually, sitting down and having that take up 100% of the time.
There's probably more time that I spent thinking about it, not just sitting and doing that one thing.
And does that include the time that you would talk about things with your boyfriend?
Oh, no.
I feel like I would talk to him way more than family.
Sorry, sorry.
I was trying to figure out the total resources.
I thought you were just talking about things that I was doing.
That's where the disconnect was.
I couldn't figure out the 3-5 hours.
So, 3-5 hours of therapy and journaling and reading, and then how much time talking about it with your boyfriend?
More than that, I have no idea how to evaluate that.
Like a work day, like eight hours a week, or six hours a week, or ten, or?
Probably talking, I mean talking to him about everything, like during distance time, probably ten or more.
Sorry, more?
More hours, I don't know how to, I don't know, I've never really thought of trying to... But quite a few, right?
Calculate, yeah, yes, definitely.
Right.
And no, the reason I'm asking is I sort of want to separate my own history.
Like I was dating a girl when I was younger, a woman who was in a challenging technical degree, and she herself had significant exam anxiety and would kind of freeze.
And it became like, you know, we talk about it, talk about it, but we just I didn't know how to fix it.
I'm not a therapist.
And it did become kind of impossible and frustrating and it got kind of claustrophobic because it was like, well, you know, I'm sorry that the one thing you're really focusing on, you're having real trouble with, but you can either change what you're focusing on or find a way to deal with it.
But it felt like it was kind of spinning wheels in mud, so to speak.
Yeah, that's exactly how I feel also.
Was it exam related or was it other things?
No, it's not.
It wasn't, like, exam-related.
It was, like... Some of it was, like, right after I had moved here, because he was still in school, at least during the first semester.
It, like, took a lot of... I was, like, really anxious to, like, get things, like, moving and, like, getting settled in in, like, a place where I didn't know anybody.
And, like, it's a PhD program, so it was, like, challenging.
And then, like, doing Research rotations and trying to find something that I thought I would like.
And then during that first year, I had found a lab, but then that ended up not working out and I had to leave that lab.
So it was a lot of anxiety of transitioning.
Sorry, I'm just not aware of what that means.
So you had a lab the first year, but you left it?
Yeah.
There's a lot of, there's a lot of reasons for me leaving.
Um, it's just like the environment was like really toxic and like not good for my overall like happiness and success.
Um, just like the lab advisor and the other PhD students were all like really either absent or like really competitive to the point of like putting you down or like, Just a bunch of... Were they, I mean, sort of putting you down, like, verbally insulting, or were they sabotaging, or what are we talking here?
Not, like, sabotaging, but just, like, like, oh, I work this many hours a week, and if you don't work this many hours a week, then I'm gonna look down on you, and, like, you have to be, like, successful, and you have to, like, do all these things for, like, me to help you, and if, like, you're not, like, Super cutthroat-y like me that I'm not going to help you.
Was that mentors or colleagues?
Colleagues mostly.
Right.
And am I right in thinking that it is fairly cutthroat in terms of like the number of people in the program versus the number of jobs available afterwards?
I don't think so.
I think that was just like a lab environment type thing.
Cause like I switched labs after that and I don't see that in the lab that I work in now.
And what do you think is different?
Is it just the culture or is it the demographics or what?
I think it's definitely just the culture.
And how far do you have to go to finish your PhD?
I have two years left.
Two years, right.
Has it been tough in terms of debt or has that been okay?
No, that's okay.
Because it's like a STEM field, I get like a stipend through the university or like grants I'll pay for my salary.
I don't have any, like, student debt from the program.
Right.
And so, if your boyfriend were on the call, or ex-boyfriend were on the call, what do you think he would say?
Because, you know, it's a big investment for him too, like, four years of his life and all that, his heart, and it takes, you know, half the time sometimes to recover from a relationship, like, half the time you've been in it.
I don't know if that's a hard and fast rule, but it's something I've heard.
And what would he say, do you think, in terms of why it didn't work out?
Um, because I sort of let the PhD and, like, let the sort of, like, career-driven-ness part of my life, like, take over and, like, sort of, like, take over, like, not just life, but, like, soul also.
Um, and, like, Even though I like what I do and I like the science and whatever that I have, I don't find it super purpose or meaning driven.
Meaning driven?
Yeah.
I'm sorry, I thought you said meeting driven.
It is very meeting driven, but it's not very meaning driven.
Oh, maybe the two are similar.
It is very meeting driven, but it's not very meaning driven.
Oh, maybe the two are similar.
No, not at all.
But I think he would say that, or I know he would say that, I let that, even though like I don't find it meaningful, like in a huge or like life driven cosmic sense, like I let it drive my like I let it drive my life to like a point where like I wasn't myself anymore.
more.
Would all-consuming be too strong a way of putting it?
I guess not all-consuming, but majority-consuming, enough that I would agree that it changed.
It was changing who I was at a basal level.
It would take effort for me to pull myself out of it.
Sorry, give me the before and after of how it changed you.
I'd say before, I was a lot more invested in more than just science.
Was like part of like different communities and I was like overall like had like a happier, more pleasant disposition.
And then being in the program and like everything, I feel like I'm more like callous and like more private and like sort of like in a shell, I guess.
Like I like sort of reverted back to like a shell form.
Of a person rather than like a living person.
Hmm.
Rather than a living person.
That's a... I don't know.
I believe this conversation should come with a whole lot more... I mean, listen, I'm not trying to sort of catch you out, but that just did really struck me the way that that was phrased.
Interesting.
All right.
So.
When it came to pursuing this PhD or pursuing this education as a whole, what was your motive and what drove you into this course?
So I was doing like a similar type thing in undergrad.
Like I was doing like undergrad research and was having the same type of degree.
Um, but like what pushed me into what pushed me into science, I guess in general, or like in the initially was, um, like I had a bunch of friends or I have a bunch of friends who like have diabetes, like just the, Oh shoot.
I'm like forgetting.
I think it's type two diabetes where it's like genetic and like, you just have to deal with it.
And like seeing them like struggle through that, like, I'm just like, Oh, I'm going to help them.
Like, I'm going to fix that.
So, like, the reason why I got into science was to, like, help people and to, like, help my friends get out of, like, annoying and frustrating and, like, debilitate.
Nah, diabetes isn't debilitating, but just, like, in general, like, helping people with health problems.
I think it's type one that's genetic, but I'm not going to look it up right now.
Okay, whichever, whichever it is.
So, yeah, the one that's not lifestyle related.
Okay.
Either way, like, just, like, helping people through health problems and then, like, pharmacogenomics type stuff.
But anyway, like, like helping people.
And, like, creating better, like, drugs or creating better, like, whatever.
That's why I got into science in the first place.
Plus it's really interesting and, like, really cool that we're able to, like, probe and, like, understand the universe in general.
It is a helping approach.
You want to help people, but I assume that in your pursuit of this, you don't spend a lot of time actually helping people, but rather That's super true.
the cell biology and the scientific aspect of things.
So it's like a people in pursuit that doesn't have you much in contact with people that you can help.
Is that a fair way to put it or are they? - That's super true.
That's exactly how it works. - So, I mean, you know the cliches around sort of male and female interests, right?
So there's tons of exceptions, but I'm just going to note them for the audience that on average women are more interested in people, on an average men are more interested in things.
And so this is an interesting combo because you went into a very technical, in a sense, inhuman or non-human contact field in order to help people.
Yeah, that's true.
And that's a bit of a...
Well, I guess that's a big deferral of gratification, right?
Because you may invent something that then gets disseminated through some pharmaceutical company, but you actually would not have any contact with the people you were helping, not like maybe like a doctor or something or whatever, like more in the office.
So that's interesting that you'd be so driven to help people and then end up in an environment where you have almost no contact with the people you help.
That's true.
I guess I'll put it out there.
That like, um, what was I going to say?
I like just completely lost my train of thought.
Um, like, I guess that's true.
What you just said is true, but also like, I feel like I, as another part of like why I sort of pursued like an academic route is like, I know that I can use like those to the books.
as sort of like a coping mechanism or like I can like push myself through and you like use work to try and like get through or like I can find meaning in like working really hard in isolation for like some like conceptual big purpose.
Well, if you could, then why would you be anxious and depressed?
Yeah, just because it's a coping mechanism and not an actual like pursuit of anything, I guess.
How do you feel in general being around people?
Is it positive, neutral, negative?
I'm definitely an introvert.
But I think if it's like a right group of people, definitely positive.
Like, I really value like people and community.
If you have like a good common goal and people are aligning to that goal and it's not petty infighting.
And yeah, no, I get that.
Yeah.
People without a purpose just turn on each other.
That's been a big lesson of mine.
If you have a whole bunch of people without a big purpose, they'll all just turn on each other.
And instead of facing a common goal or they will, uh, their goal will be to destroy each other.
That's just one of the sad things that happens when you don't get a purpose out of, out of a group.
But, uh, all right.
It's interesting.
So if you look at finishing in two years and you would then go to start to work as well?
Yeah, but I'm definitely thinking of not having science and research as the working.
I've sort of realized, sort of like during the transition from undergrad to grad school, like an alternative career path that I've like been So that would be more people-centric, because you'd be interviewing people and working with editors and so on, right?
like doing like press releases or like working with scientists and journalism rather than like doing science.
So that would be more people centric because you'd be interviewing people and working with editors and so on.
But you wouldn't need a PhD to do that, right?
No.
I mean, it doesn't hurt, but you wouldn't need the PhD for that, right?
And how long have you been thinking of that?
The whole time that I've been in the program, so like three years now.
But probably with seriousness, like a year and a half to two years.
So I guess the next question is, Are your ovaries ululating with the passage of time, or how's the egg buildup doing in your brain?
I definitely want kids and I want a family, if that's what you're trying to ask.
And that was part of the problem or part of a contention between me and him before, too, because he's like, if you're in this PhD and then you want to
Graduate with a PhD and then get yourself established in a field like that's gonna take forever To have kids like reasonably biologically and like I know that like I know that And I'm trying to like reconcile like these like different pulling forces When did you first start to think about kids in relation to your education and possible conflict?
Um Like even before, or like we had even, we had talked about it before I like went to grad school, but sort of like a conceptual plan before like experiencing all the turmoil that we experienced.
Like it seemed sort of, I guess, maybe like reasonable to like try and for me to finish the program and then for him to get established in like his career after graduating.
And then start like a family afterwards.
Wait, so get a PhD then start a family?
Yeah, and that's a huge switch.
I know that.
I definitely recognize that.
That's huge.
That's nice, but you've actually done the opposite then of what you wanted to do in terms of helping your friends, because you wanted to help your friends who have the genetic diabetes.
And then by taking this program and then starting a family, you've actually denied your friends access to somebody who could have the expertise to help them because you took the slot of someone else, right?
Yeah.
Like, we're short one person who can help them, right?
Yeah.
And I'm, I'm not trying to be mean.
Like I'm just, there's a part of me that's aware of all of this and it may have something to do with why there's the anxiety and depression or whatever it is.
Cause you're kind of lashed to something that's contradicting with another goal.
And the longer you continue in this, the shorter society is one more scientist who can help, right?
I guess I don't.
I don't feel the weight of that because, like, I actually don't study diabetes or anything like that.
I study, like, basic science.
Well, whatever it is that you would end up doing.
No, it's true.
It doesn't have to be diabetes, right?
Yeah.
But society has poured massive amounts of resources into training you.
And listen, please, I'm not criticizing, you know, the fact that you want to have kids, I think is wonderful.
So I'm not criticizing anything.
I'm just, we cannot process things on the surface.
But the problem is our unconscious is always churning, right?
The unconscious is always churning, always processing.
And it can be thousands of times faster than the conscious mind.
And so if you're kind of lashed to the mast of this ambition, sailing you into a contradictory storm, that's going to trouble you.
Even if you're like, well, I'm going to buckle down and do the work deep down.
We're always doing this calculus, right?
Because you know, I mean, if you, if you graduate in your late twenties with a PhD, I assume it takes a couple of years to get established in your field, right?
Yeah.
So then we're starting to talk early thirties and then you've got to start trying to get pregnant just as you get established in your field, which is the culmination of a quarter century or more of education, right?
And then you get pregnant and then I guess you leave your job, you go on maternity leave, maybe you have another kid and so on.
And I assume you want to breastfeed because you know how important that is for kids.
And so you've got a half decade, six, seven years or whatever before your kids are wherever, if you want to put them in Government schools or private schools or if you're going to homeschool them or whatever.
So, you know, we are talking late thirties, maybe eight to ten years out of the workplace before you go back in, which is a hell of a thing to do, right?
To basically get up and running after a quarter century of education, drop out to have kids and then work to try and reestablish yourself, you know, five, seven, ten years down the road.
That's a hell of a thing, right?
Yeah.
I'm very aware of that and, like, more recently I've been, like, thinking of trying to find ways to—this is the thing, I know this is, like, the common trope and, like, something that I know happens and I'm very frustrated by, but I do it anyway, is, like, the thing where you, like, you think you can have it all, like modern women think they can have it all.
I definitely fall into that all the time.
I'm just like, oh, I can be a science writer, and a mom, and a wife, and I can do all these things.
Well, science writer is more likely than full scientist, right?
Yeah, and that's what I'm trying to move towards.
You can more set your own hours, you can choose your own projects, and so on.
Yeah, work from home and all that.
So, I mean, science writer is, again, I'm no expert on either of these fields, but it strikes me that science writer is much more Achievable than scientist with regards to balancing work-family?
Mm-hmm.
Right.
So your boyfriend was looking down this tunnel of time and saying, Oh Lord.
Was it the tunnel of time plus like I was not like myself?
Because of, like, all this anxiety and, like, closed-off-edness and, like... So what was his advice to you, then?
What was his advice to you as to what you should do?
Because I'm sure that came up, um... a couple times, or more.
Yeah, it definitely came up a lot.
What was his advice to you on how to deal with this?
Yeah, so, um... Like, take more time, like, and, like, spend it with him, and, like...
Put more, not just into the program, but like into like our relationship.
And there were like a bunch of ways that I could do that, but obviously by visiting him, since we were doing distance, like showing that I was like caring more, like demonstrating and like doing things that... What?
Nothing useful whatsoever, if you don't mind me saying so.
Nothing practical, right?
Well, no, you're saying like he had, cause when I was switching, sorry to get defensive.
Like he was saying... A million times.
So, like, when I was, like, in the lab transition, he, like, suggested, like, how about you just drop out and get a master's, because then we could be done school at the same time, and then we could move forward with our lives.
But I switched labs instead of doing that.
So, like, all the practical advice he gave, like, I sort of... I, like, listened to, and he did, but I didn't, like...
Do it right away or I would need him to like suggest.
I didn't do that.
No, I didn't do that one.
No, I didn't drop out.
Right.
Yeah.
So what, what advice that he gave you in terms of practical things did you take, if any?
Um, so he's in a, like he works in a place that we were thinking about like moving to and establishing ourselves there.
And then he suggested that I take like, like a sabbatical time.
And, like, go and work there during a time.
Like, he needed to suggest that for me to, like, move forward with that plan.
So that's just one example.
Oh, and you did that?
You did take the sabbatical time and go work there?
Oh, no, I was, like, planning on it, but then, like, we had broken up before I did that.
Okay, so let me ask the question again and have you listen this time, which is, what practical advice did he give you that you took?
I didn't.
Like, I didn't.
I didn't take the advice.
And that's important, right?
Because if you're looking down into future relationships, you cannot be in a relationship and not take people's advice.
It doesn't mean that you're a slave to their advice.
But if they have no input, after a while, they're like, okay, so you're not listening to me.
You just need resources from me.
You don't listen to any suggestions that I make.
So I'm kind of not here except to be preyed upon emotionally and be your Comfort blanket and cry sponge and all that kind of stuff.
And yet I don't have a voice in this relationship.
And it's kind of hard to avoid feeling exploited after a while because you don't have any input, but your resources are continually being removed from you, so to speak.
Yeah, exactly.
Right.
So why do you think you're bad at taking advice that you might take anyway?
Like what did he think of you being a science writer?
He liked that idea.
Like that was something that we had talked about and that seemed to really work out.
So why didn't you become a scientist?
This is the thing where I can't explain.
I still can't find a great reason.
Like I said before, science is really cool.
And I think it's important that it gets done.
And for some reason, I've really held on to, I need to be the one to do it.
But I know I don't have to be.
And I know it's like, Not that are fitting my life.
Okay.
So I don't know how to get rid of it.
Okay.
Let's, let's get right down to the emotional nitty gritty, which I know for a scientist isn't always the easiest thing, but it's still easier than talking to an engineer.
But, um, so there's, there's heartbreak on the side of abandoning this course, right?
You, you would just feel enormously sad on the other side of it, which means that you have a belief in the virtual value of what you're doing that is not open to negotiation or empirical evidence.
Right.
Like you have to do this like it's a good thing, right?
Like it's a virtuous thing and if you do it, if you stop doing it or change course to being a mom or being a science writer or both or whatever, then you have a part of you that will use that to attack you, to castigate you, that you failed, that you are betraying something that you, whatever, right?
It has to be that way because why would you reject advice that cost you a boyfriend?
Why would you not alter course that could get you what you want?
Why are you still on a course that it's not just his last boyfriend, Sarah, who's going to say, wait, if you're on this course, how on earth are we going to have a family?
Or what if I want more than one kid or two kids or whatever, right?
It means that you have a non-negotiable, sorry, you have a non-negotiable perspective within you regarding this degree and this career Because it's non-negotiable, the other person doesn't exist, which means you can't have a relationship with someone.
Does that make any sense?
Yeah, exactly.
Okay, so what is the degree, what does it mean to you?
And that's why I sort of asked you what your motivation was, right?
Yeah.
Because you said, oh, I want to help my friends who have diabetes.
And they're like, well, no, I wouldn't actually end up having anything to do with diabetes.
It's like, well, that certainly takes one of the rockets out of the jetpack as far as what's propelling you in this direction.
So what does it mean, let's say, tomorrow, You wake up and you say, I'm going to be a science writer and I'm going to look for a husband and a father for my children, right?
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't, but let's just say you do, right?
What emotions would that bring up in you if that was the case?
I feel like I'd be like really excited for all those things.
So you'd be excited.
It would be a positive thing.
Okay.
You know why I'm going to keep asking this question, right?
Yeah.
Because when you have a positive thing that's available to you, like that, that would have satisfied your boyfriend, I assume, right?
If you said to your boyfriend, you know, you're right.
I'm sorry.
I should have listened to you regarding the masters.
I'm going to become a science writer.
I'm dropping out of this.
Let's move forward.
Let's get married.
Let's have kids.
Let's sort it out.
And we'll just figure it out as we go forward.
That would be a huge positive for you, right?
Yeah.
So why the hell are you denying yourself such a positive?
That's the thing, I don't know.
Well, you do know.
You do know.
I give nobody the I don't know.
You can't go rubber bones on me, Sarah.
I'm just telling you that right now.
You cannot go rubber bones on me.
I will not accept it, especially someone as brilliant as you.
Like, I just won't accept it.
So you have a story about this degree that is denying you the happiness that you want, to the point where you're willing to blow up a close to half-decade relationship, put your entire family future and child future in jeopardy, continue on what is becoming, it sounds like, an increasingly thankless task to a non-destination called getting a degree.
So why are you denying yourself this happiness?
What ascetic monk-like What train tracks are you currently stuck on and what is the cost of jumping those tracks to get what would make you happy?
You've got some story about this PhD that if you don't get it, what?
Yeah, I know that a lot of my personal identity comes from being an academic and there's so much Like I sort of mentioned and alluded to before of using academia and book smartedness as a coping mechanism to the point where it's become so crucial.
No, it's not a coping mechanism.
No, it's not a coping mechanism because it's self-inflicted.
A coping mechanism is, oh, something bad has happened and here's how I'm going to rationalize it.
This is something you're inflicting on yourself.
It's not a coping mechanism.
Yeah.
Is it a vanity thing?
Like this is what you like to say, well, I'm getting a PhD and that gives you some social cachet or some sense of specialness or like, I'm just casting about here, but let me know if I'm getting more.
Um, I don't think it's like a, Oh, I'm so fancy.
I have a PhD cause I know I don't need it.
And like at this point I question if I want it.
What?
It's in the way, isn't it?
It's definitely in the way.
Okay, so let's go.
You know where we have to go next, right?
Where are we going next?
You've heard these calls before, right?
Yeah.
All right.
Who is the voice in your head that is telling you you cannot quit?
Does it come from your childhood?
Is it a parent's voice?
Is it a mentor's voice?
Who is going to castigate you in your mind if you quit to get what you want?
I mean, it's just me.
It's just me and my head.
No, no, no.
Because that would be to say that you have some weird, freaky desire to deny yourself that which you want and torture yourself in pursuit of a goal that isn't going to satisfy you, according to what you've said.
And we don't just sort of sit there and just start punching ourselves randomly for no reason.
We don't just deny ourselves our own happiness without cause.
We're not random.
So who's Whose approval are you seeking or whose attack are you avoiding by continuing on this path?
But that's like the problem is like, I just, I thought about this so much and I can't imagine, like, I have no idea who was saying that other than like the self-conception I have of myself.
Hang on, who first fed you the self-conception that you needed to do this to be worthwhile?
I did.
Out of nowhere.
I know that I did.
Not out of nowhere.
Okay, out of where then?
Like... I'm so glad you said not out of nowhere.
That's the first crack in this armor.
That's excellent.
Good, good, good for you.
So out of where then?
Like in undergrad, I was like, I had supportive mentors that like suggested and like supported me doing like a grad program versus another thing.
But, like, the whole reason why, like, went into academia and, like, any sort of academic program to begin with was, like, like I said, like, back when I, like, first was thinking about, like, what to do with my life.
But like the whole reason why I like went into academia and like any sort of academic program to begin with was like, like I said, like it like back when I like first was thinking about like what to do with my life, Like, in undergrad, I was, like, I had supportive mentors that, like, suggested and, like, supported me doing, like, a grad program versus another thing.
Like, school and, like, books and stuff, like, were, like, an actual coping mechanism of, like, life just because, like, in high school, like, my parents got divorced.
I was, like, assaulted and, like, all these things were happening then.
I'm sorry.
Did you say you were assaulted?
And what happened there?
I haven't talked to, I talked about it to a few people, but I haven't talked about it a lot.
You can give me the generalities, if you don't mind, and if you don't want to, I perfectly respect that as well, but it does sound like it might be a motivating factor.
I mean, like, the whole, like, combination of... it was just, like, mostly the timeline of things.
So, like, my parents were starting to get divorced, like, my dad had, like, moved out of the house, and then, like, I was assaulted in my house.
By someone that I was like having that meet my mom and sister.
A boyfriend?
Yeah.
How old were you?
16.
And this was the age that your parents were divorcing?
Yeah.
And how long had it been since you found out they were going to divorce when the assault happened?
I think it was like, it's not very long.
It was only like a few months.
Were there any signs that the boy was dangerous before you were alone with him?
No.
He was from, like, a different school.
It's like no one really knew anything about him that, like, I knew.
So I didn't have any, like, crazy warnings.
What attracted you to him? - I don't even know at this point.
I don't.
Yeah, you do.
I know it's hard to think of it on the other side of an assault, but was he charismatic?
Was he very good-looking?
Was he a fast talker?
Was he high in social status?
I mean, there must have been something.
He was charismatic, like the same music as I did, because I was 16, and that's all I cared about.
Went to the movies or something in a city, and I thought that was cool.
It was just like he was a cool person.
And then he seemed family-oriented, because he had Bunch of siblings and like, all that.
Like, he seemed like a normal person.
How do you think he knew?
Because, I mean, not only is it horrifically immoral, but it's legally extraordinarily risky to assault a girl, right?
Because if you then, if the first thing you do is run to the police, right?
Then, I mean, he could go to jail for five years, ten years, whatever, right?
So how did he know?
I assume you didn't go to the police.
Is that a fair assumption?
No, he was going into the Marines, so he, like, beat me up real hard and said that if I, like, said anything that he'd kill me, and I, like, totally believed that.
Oh my gosh.
I'm so sorry.
What was his excuse for beating you up?
It was mostly just, like, to make sure I wouldn't, like, go and tell anybody about it.
Wait, so do you mean that there was a sexual assault and then the beating up?
It was, like, both at the same time.
Oh my god, I'm so sorry.
What a horrifying, nightmarish, terrifying, evil experience.
How wretched.
How wretched.
And were you able to cover it up?
Yeah.
How?
Makeup and clothes.
Oh, that's sorry.
I didn't mean physically.
Oh, um, I was sort of already like a quiet nerd.
So no one really paid attention.
But you have a mother and father.
That's true.
My dad had already left the house by then.
And he was sort of absent for a while.
He kind of did for a while.
He like later explained that he thought it was best if like he just
left and like let us sort of deal with their anger and like feel that anger but he kind of he like kind of did leave for a considerable amount of time and then i i'm not sure a few months i don't remember talking to him for like months at a time sometimes um and then my mom who is sort of always like a little bit of a low-key alcoholic like really became an overt alcoholic after he left
Do you know what caused the split between them?
Probably a little bit of her addiction.
And then, uh, they both claim that the other cheated on each other, but I don't trust either of them about that type of stuff.
Cause just, they both seem really weird about that.
But it seems like that was part of the, like, a lot of the problem was like her continual like addiction without getting help.
And then, Perhaps both of their infidelity.
Hmm.
When you say low-key alcoholic, you mean like a couple of glasses of wine a night or what are we talking?
Like she would not even like show that she would be drinking ever, but like just randomly would be drunk sometimes.
And did your mother not notice the before and after of you, Sarah, before the assault and Being beaten up and like, did she not like, either you're a very good actress or she's clueless, right?
I think a little bit of both.
Cause she's still, I haven't told her and she doesn't, she's never like asked or realized that there was a difference between those time periods.
So her daughter got assaulted and I assume, well, you got assaulted and you experienced a death threat and she didn't notice anything.
No, because by the time, like, my dad had left and she was not mentally around.
So, he knew.
The guy knew that you were unsupported, right?
I don't remember telling him all that.
He had some kind of instinct, right?
I mean, he must have known something about your family situation, right?
Yeah.
Because I mean, he took a hell of a risk, right?
I mean, go to jail, never get into the Marines, to have a permanent record.
I mean, I don't know how old he was and don't tell me, but I mean, that's a hell of a risk to take.
And he must have had some pretty secure knowledge that you would not have the kind of support around you that would have him end up where he damn well should be, which is in jail.
Yeah.
So how did he sniff that out?
I don't know.
I mean, no one was home when I brought him home, because I thought people would be home, but no one was.
Was that your first time alone?
Yeah.
And how long had you been going out at that point?
Not very long, maybe like a month.
And you brought him home to meet your family?
Yeah, after church of all places.
Was he in church with you?
No, he was somewhere else, right?
He, like, came to church because I told him I was in the choir and he came to see me, like, sing.
So, like, everything seemed to be fine.
Like, totally, like, a good person type of things.
And you knew before he assaulted you that he was going into the Marines?
Yeah.
He'd already been applied and been accepted?
He was applying.
I don't remember if he was accepted at that point of time.
I'm so sorry again.
And did you think about or did you consider going to the authorities?
I mean, I did, but I didn't want to risk dying, so I didn't.
And did you think of telling anyone?
Not then.
It took like years for me to move to a different state to tell people.
Again, I'm incredibly sorry.
That's an absolutely horrible, horrific, and evil thing to go through.
But I mean, like, the whole reason why I brought that up was just because, like, then between, like, the divorce and, like, basically being a parent during, like, a really shitty time in my life, like, trying to be a parent for my own mom and my younger sister, like, I just saw, like, academia as, like, a ticket out of everything.
What do you mean, a ticket out of everything?
Like a ticket out of the state, ticket out of where I was.
Oh, like the sort of old cliche of the woman who just marries the first guy who smiles at her because she hates her home life.
You married sort of academia in a way to get out of the home environment?
Yeah.
That's a way to put it.
No, I don't want to have a way to put it.
I want to make sure I'm accurate.
You know, if someone gave you a scientific conclusion and then if you gave someone a scientific conclusion and say, well, that's one way to put it, you'd say, okay, well, what's, what's wrong with that?
They would get correct.
Yeah.
I guess I wasn't thinking I wouldn't, at least during then, I decided to take it out of there.
I didn't see it as like a marriage to anything, but I guess in terms of how I've acted in like the, my actionable Value hierarchy is it's higher up than what I want to admit.
So, okay.
So now I sort of understand the coping strategy, right?
So things got really bad around 15 or 16 for you.
Were your parents fighting a lot before they separated?
Yeah.
At least like they thought they were being quiet about it, but they definitely weren't.
So for a couple of years there, and you said that you were sort of introverted, and I think you said nerdy, so your school social life, I assume, was not stellar?
I mean, like, I was part of, like, different communities.
I was in, like, band and ballet, and, like, I had places where I would do things with other people.
Right.
So you had a social life, but it was not top tier in terms of status?
I mean, definitely not.
And I think I don't, I don't really, like I had friends before things happened, but then after like the assault, I just sort of like stopped trusting people.
You stopped what?
So like, even though I, trusting people?
Sure.
You've been living with a terrible secret and a great fear, right?
Because it's not like, I mean, the guy threatened you, but it's not like if you don't go to the authorities that that threat vanishes.
I mean, every time a wind rustles against your window, you're scared, right?
Yeah.
So yeah, living with a secret is extraordinarily isolating.
Extraordinarily isolating.
It kind of puts you on the dark side of the moon and you're around people, but because you've got this giant fiery mode of a secret, it's really tough to connect.
Right?
Mm.
Right.
And I feel like since then, I, I don't know, I sort of within the past, I know it's like been a long time since then.
Like, in the past year, I've realized I can't let that be the reason why I'm like how I am.
No, no, you can't let it win.
No, absolutely.
I mean, the assault is not about sexuality, as you know, right?
The assault is about the destruction of another human being and the stripping of her happiness and the implantation of...
Fear and loathing and all of these... It's a horrible way in which a virus replicates of nihilism and self-contempt at times.
It's nothing to do with sexuality.
People make that mistake continually.
So... Yeah, you can't let him win.
And you can't let him strip your future happiness from you.
I mean, that would be... wretched.
You know, we all have to fight evil in our own way, and for you to stake a claim for your own happiness despite the evils that were done unto you is... Well, you know this.
You were in church, right?
There's many, many different ways to fight the devil.
But you don't pay him a penny more than he takes by force, right?
Yeah, I guess I just meant, like, sort of, like, stopping the cycle of, like, Victim becoming, like, an abuser type situation.
Like, obviously I wasn't, like, hurting people.
But I was, like, using it as, like, a reason for a lot of things.
Like, oh, I have bad self-esteem because of this.
And, like, that's true.
But I sort of, like, sort of recently resolved to, like, not have that be the case.
Like, I'm so much more than that.
And I know that.
Not sure where I was going with that.
Sorry.
Well, let's let's circle back a little bit of a bump in the old road there.
So you said that you were concerned about turning from a victim into an abuser?
Not like an abuser, like, like an actual abuser, but just like using, like, past, using the past and like those, like, the whole situation and like, the things that came out of it as like, the reason, like even Almost 10 years later, like, it's not, like, the reasons why I am the way I am, like, cannot be and should not be because of things that happened 10 years ago.
Well, but the reason why these things stick usually is because we are not getting something foundational about the situation.
In other words, it's hard to let go of the past if we haven't learned the lessons it's trying to teach us.
And I think that there's something missing.
In this experience for you, that is why it's hard to let go of.
Were you 15 or 16 when you started dating him?
16, I think.
16, all right.
Who was responsible for keeping you safe when you were 16?
Legally, my parents.
Why did you say legally?
I don't know.
I feel like it's also like individual responsibility, but I guess a teenager is not really up to snuff when it comes to knowing what to do about that.
At the age of 16, you're still a half decade away from brain maturation, right?
Yeah.
So who is morally responsible for keeping you safe when you're 16?
Yeah, parents.
Right.
And did they fail?
Yeah, definitely.
And do they know?
Uh, no.
Why don't they know?
I feel like... I don't know.
I mean, they don't know because I haven't told them.
I know.
I understand the causality of that.
As a mind reader, I'm going to be there.
Why don't they know?
I've like sort of almost brought it up to my mom once.
But before I could even get to that point, she sort of turned it back, that whole conversation back on me in terms of who is at fault for things.
I told her I was going through a really rough time during that period for a lot of reasons.
And she's like, oh, well, you did it on yourself because you were so quiet and you took all the responsibility for me and your sister.
She blamed you.
Wait, she was only 15.
For the hard time you were having.
At least she blamed me for, like, the emotional output.
I don't think she didn't say that, because I didn't tell her anything in particular happened.
She didn't, like, blame me for, like, anything that happened.
No, you were probing to see if there was any space for listening.
Yeah, so I just sort of, like, decided not to tell her anything ever about emotional anything since then because of that.
Tell me what strikes you when I say the following.
Thou shalt not bear false witness.
Is that something you believe?
False witness?
What does that mean?
Thou shalt not bear... I thought you said you were in the church choir?
Oh, I was, but...
Not anymore.
Thou shalt not be a false witness means don't lie.
Yeah.
Do you believe that telling the truth is a virtue?
Yes.
So why aren't you doing it?
I feel like neither of them would like really listen and I know some of it like I know it's on Me to try and tell them those sorts of things?
I don't know why I don't tell them.
I feel like, like I said, I don't feel like they would listen, one.
And two, it'd just be like stirring up things that they wouldn't want to hear or address in any proper way.
I would want the goal to be some sort of catharsis.
Oh, no, no.
Honesty is catharsis.
It doesn't matter what happens.
Honesty is catharsis.
Because I don't think, and I, you know, I really hesitate to tell you your own experience.
So just tell me if I'm going astray, of course.
But I don't think you're concerned about them not listening.
I think you're concerned about something much worse.
Yeah.
I don't want people in that space or community to hear it either.
No, no.
I mean, I'm sure that's a factor, but I'm talking about with regards to your parents.
And you, that's why you didn't tell your mom the day when you brought up how tough things were when you were 16, because what did she do?
Who did she blame?
Yeah, she put it back on me.
So what would happen if you told your parents about this and they tried to put it back on you?
I mean, at this point I would not internalize it and just freak out at them or like, not freak out, but I don't know what would happen, I guess.
Sure you do.
If they put it back upon you in some manner, whether explicitly or implicitly, what would happen to your relationship with them?
I'm already sort of like a strange, not estranged from them, but I don't feel like emotionally tight with them.
Well, of course you don't.
So I'm not really sure.
Yeah.
So I guess things are just gone as normal just because I'm not close to them already.
Right.
what did your boyfriend your ex-boyfriend think of your relationship with your parents um he wished it was better like he wished that i or like i was closer with my at least my mom and dad but he also sort of like he met them a bunch of times and like understood why i wasn't as close But he knew about the assaults and he also knew that you told them, right?
Yep.
Did he suggest you tell them?
He probably did.
I don't remember.
Really?
Really?
You're going to put a blank card on something that important?
Yeah.
Did he suggest that you tell them?
Probably, yes.
What probably certainty are we talking here?
51 or 98?
85?
85, alright.
I can take that.
- Like 85. - 85, all right, I can take that.
See, that's the solitary nature of your existence, right?
Because you have something that was essential that happened to you that was at least for some period of time, somewhat life-changing.
And you can't tell your parents because you don't respect their capacity to hear the truth.
But I don't know that you've really sat there and looked at that fact directly.
Right?
Like I'm not saying whether you have to, or I mean, not, not that I don't tell people what to do.
So I'm just talking about choices and consequences.
Right?
So if you've decided that your parents can't handle the truth, Then you need to really sit with that fact, right?
And say, my parents will blame me for being assaulted, or I'm afraid my parents will blame me for being assaulted because when I probed things with my mom that one time, she blamed me for being anxious and depressed during that time period.
Right?
Was it at the time that you heard that your parents had had affairs or were accusing each other of that?
Was that at that time or later?
It was later.
How much later?
A few months to a year maybe.
So still when you were 16 or 17 you were having these accusations of infidelity floating around, right?
Yeah.
And what do you think of a relationship wherein you can't tell someone an essential truth about your life?
Yeah, it's really depressing.
It's like, I regret that that's sort of how I view my parents and my relationship.
I mean, you're an empiricist too.
I assume as a scientist, you've got some evidence for it, right?
They didn't notice at the time.
And when you tried to bring it up with your mother more recently, she turned her back on you and didn't say, well, why are you asking me or what's going on for you?
Or did she exhibit any curiosity about what was going on for you?
Um, she would ask... No, I mean, when you brought it up more recently.
I don't remember her, like, being curious about it, especially... Whenever she, like, asks, like, oh, how are you doing?
Like, she just wants to... I think she just wants to hear herself ask, but she doesn't want, like, an honest answer.
I think they're both sort of like that.
Yeah, it's like the grocery store clerk saying, how's your day?
Yeah, exactly.
They don't want a long list.
Yeah.
But they're sort of, I think they're both sort of like that, where they just want to hear like, oh, I'm good.
Still in school.
So is it fair to say, and you know, I don't mean to say this to sound too harsh, but I'm just looking at it from the outside.
Is it fair to say, Sarah, that you have to lie in your primary relationship continually?
I think, I don't think I, I don't think I'm lying to them.
I'm not telling them false things.
But yeah, I am withholding information.
Okay, so when they say how you're doing and you say you're depressed, do you say, I'm depressed?
Oh, no.
Okay, so you're lying.
Fair enough.
No, and I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to catch you out here.
I'm just trying to get to the axia, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So you lie in order to what?
What's the purpose of lying to your parents?
Just like maintain normalcy and not cause drama there.
But I guess like for clarity, like when my sister asks or when a boyfriend would ask, like I would be more honest there.
Like I wouldn't, like I'm not, I don't lie to people that I like trust.
I guess like I'm not.
Do your siblings know about the assault?
Yeah, my sister does.
I have a sister.
Right.
And has she ever suggested you talk to your parents?
Um, she has sort of, but she's gone through like a bunch of, Actually, she's in a really similar situation to herself, so she's still grappling with how to talk about it with parents also.
I just want to put this out there for others, and I'm sorry to bring the world into our chat here.
No, it's cool.
Listen, I just want people to know that particularly after puberty, but at any time, for your daughters and to some degree for your sons, If you're going through a divorce, particularly if it's acrimonious, which it usually is, your children are a great vulnerability because the predators out there in the world can see that the parents are fighting and the kids are unguarded, unguarded.
So all parents out there.
Who are jerky enough to get divorced, like I'm sorry, just work it out.
Be mature, be adult, work the damn thing out.
But if you're jerky enough to get divorced, your first and only damn job is to make sure your children are safe because they'll be radiating distress and fear and anxiety and a lack of support, which is going to draw predators as surely as a cut artery in the water is going to bring some sharks.
I just wanted to put that out there because I don't think people really appreciate that enough.
That the children are unguarded and there are a lot of freaking people out in this world Who like to hurt children.
And they are good at smelling when children are unprotected.
And your parents left you unprotected.
It's still the man's fault, the boy's fault.
I'm not excusing him, like he's not some lion.
So he's the moral responsibility for the assault.
But the protection responsibility lies squarely on your parents.
And if you had had a strong bond with your mother or father or both, this guy would not have done what he did.
Again, I'm not, I'm not removing his moral responsibility, but in terms of who he picks, they know who to pick and they know why.
And the terrible risk he took tragically paid off for him.
And that's your parents' fault.
And you can't tell them the truth.
Now, there's a reason why you would take a path that would have you avoid motherhood.
Do you know what that is?
Yeah, school.
Yes, but why would you take that path that defers motherhood ad infinitum?
And why would you pass up the opportunity to settle down and have a family now with your ex-boyfriend?
So there's two questions there, right?
Am I hearing that right?
Why are you taking a path and denying the opportunity?
Why are you postponing motherhood to the distant future?
What is motherhood going to trigger in you when you hold your newborn baby in your arms?
Because you already told me about your mom.
Mm-hmm.
So.
You are a woman.
Great intellect and deep feeling.
And you're going to bond with your son or your daughter.
Let's just pretend it's a daughter for the moment, right?
When you bond with your daughter, if you grew up with an emotionally distant and abusive mother, and like, I'm sorry, I'm just going to say abusive because if she turns upon you, the heartache and depression that you had when your parents were splitting up, that's abusive in my view.
So if you were to bond with your daughter in a very strong and powerful way, which you will, I'm sure.
What pain will that bring up?
I mean, definitely like regret and like, I guess, yeah, but you said pain of like me not having that growing up.
But also like the I know I've talked about this with my sister.
We have both said that we know what not to do as parents, but don't know what to, what we would do as parents.
So there's that fear of not knowing what to do.
But I love kids, and I can't wait to So you want to have children, but you're not having children.
And that means someone else in your life does not want you to have children.
Who's that?
Whose interests are going to be harmed by you having a strong, healthy bond with your daughter?
Yeah, my mom.
That's right.
You will not know how bad your mother was until you are a good mother.
Yeah.
So whose interests are harmed if you decided to become a science writer and if you decided to get married to your boyfriend and have children next year?
Yeah, my parents.
That's right.
So if you want to know who's in charge, Of your womb, right now, I believe, it's your parents.
And that's the price of not telling them the truth, is that they run your uterus.
And I'm not criticizing you for not telling the truth.
I completely and totally understand.
I don't want you to come out of this conversation, oh, he called me a liar, he thinks I'm a liar.
It is a fact that you're not telling the truth, but I have bottomless sympathy for that.
I really do.
I'm just telling you that there's a price for it.
I did not really understand my childhood until I became a father.
It's really easy to be a good parent.
It's not rocket science.
It's really not.
I mean, it's just a few basic common virtues.
Right?
You love.
You listen.
You don't indulge in temper.
You don't indulge in humiliation.
You don't hit.
You know, these are basics.
We achieve this usually when we go out to the movies.
I don't punch anyone or yell at anyone or humiliate anyone when I go to the movies.
We achieve this at a bar.
We achieve this at a restaurant.
Play with your kids, you know, enjoy their company, listen to them.
care how they feel, care what they think.
It's not hard.
We're designed for that.
We bond with that.
That's what all that lovely oxytocin and bonding hormones and this is, you know, you can't hit what you adore.
So you'll, I think, find it surprisingly easy to be a good parent.
But It would be very hard.
Like, to me, like, okay, what's postpartum depression?
What is it that happens?
Well, I don't know, obviously, but my theory is that it's a re-experiencing of a lack of bonding that happened as a baby for these women.
And because they haven't processed it, it hits them, right?
You want to process things ahead of time so they don't hit you in the fly and hit you in the moment.
I hit you in the fly sounds like something out of America's Funniest Videos, but hit you in the moment, right?
You want to be prepared.
So, if your mother and your father will have their interests harmed by you becoming a mother, because you will bond with your child and you will finally realize just how bad you had it as a child, and you will also, I'll tell you this, Sarah, you will really understand.
Look, I'll tell you this.
Just as a father to a daughter, I will tell you this.
First of all, if my daughter stubbed her toe an hour ago, I know.
Either I'm around, or I can tell that she's not herself, or something's bothering her and we sit there and we'll talk about it, right?
Like, man, I know.
It's not hard to figure out.
You live with people, you raise them, you, you know, you figure it out.
So, so your parents are, they're not passive in this.
They're actively avoiding this.
That's number one.
Number two, I will tell you this, and you will understand this when you become a mother.
And I know that's an annoying thing to say, but trust me, it's true.
If I ever found out that my daughter had been keeping a terrible secret from me for years, I can't even tell you how heartbreaking that would be for me.
I have no words to express the missed opportunities for relaxation and intimacy and chatting and togetherness that we couldn't have had that.
And I would be so critical of myself as to what environment I had created that my daughter would need to keep a terrible secret from me for years.
And I would have said that what the hell was wrong with me that I didn't notice the difference.
It will be hard to recognize just how terrible it was until you realize how easy it is to be a great parent and I think that your parents don't want you to get there and the longer you put off motherhood the longer they can live
Without responsibility and without the truth.
I guess I'm just having a hard time putting that together with that I'm already not close to them.
And then why that would be as impactful as it is.
I guess I'm like my actions.
Listen, we are always close to our parents.
We have no choice about that.
I have not spoken to my mother in Probably close to 20 years now.
I'm as close to her as bone is to marrow.
We are always close to our parents.
It's like trying to forget the language you were raised with.
You may not speak it for 20 years, but you'll never lose it.
You have decades of experience with your parents.
You have internalized them.
They're always present.
That we have no choice about.
You can as sooner separate yourself from your parents, inner or outer, as you can separate yourself from the concept of gravity.
Right?
You never go to the edge of the balcony and say, well, I wonder if I could fly this time.
Well, you don't, right?
You never put your head in under the water in the bath and say, well, maybe I have gills now.
We automate things all the time.
We have to.
We have to.
Just so we can get anything done.
I don't sit there and say, wait, do I move this leg or this leg in order to walk?
Right?
So the fact that you may only sometimes talk to your parents or the fact that you're not open with them or the fact that you manage the relationship, it doesn't matter.
They are as close to you as your eyelids are to your eyeballs.
And they always will be.
We cannot undo the empiricism of our histories.
Now, that doesn't mean we're enslaved by them.
Of course not, right?
But this idea is that, well, I don't talk to my parents that much.
Even that avoidance means that you're very close to them, if that makes any sense.
You're wrapped up with them or... Yeah, that makes sense.
Sorry, I will stop explaining when the brilliant woman gets the right answer.
Nah, but I hear what you're saying now.
And here's the test.
You're a scientist, right?
So we have a conjecture, then we want to see if it holds true to the data, right?
Did your parents strongly intervene to save your relationship with your ex?
No.
Well, there's your answer.
Not at all.
And how did I know that was the case?
It's really frustrating.
How did I know that?
Because that would be in line with them not wanting you to succeed.
I never ever want anyone to say anything I take... I never want anyone to take anything I say on face value.
It must always be empirical evidence.
The empirical evidence would be you love this guy.
Assume, right?
You loved him.
He loved you.
And if your parents had intervened strongly to keep you together, then that would be against My conjecture, my hypothesis, right?
If, on the other hand, they either passively or actively were neutral or encouraged the separation, then that would perfectly explain why they want you to postpone parenting so you don't realize how terrible they are.
And I want you to have that experience.
I want everyone to have that experience.
Being a parent is an amazing, incredible, humbling, beautiful, amazing, a wonderful thing.
And if you want to be a parent and you say that you do... The fuck do you care about a PhD?
No, I'm sorry to put it this way.
Yeah, no, exactly though.
I mean, you can go and align bacteria or you can go and make life.
Yeah.
You can go and help strangers you'll never meet or you can breastfeed a baby in your arms.
And the people, like, I don't want to say it's not dichotomy, right?
I mean, if you were absolutely, if you said, oh, I don't want to have kids at all, all I care about, then we'd aim at that, right?
Yeah.
But this is why, I mean, I always, if your, if your desires are just and moral, I want to help you achieve them with every ounce of creative effort in my body.
Yeah.
Thank you.
So let me ask you the next question.
And tell me, before I ramble on, tell me what you're feeling at the moment.
How am I feeling at this moment?
it.
Well, unless hay fever has hit you suddenly.
What?
Unless hay fever has hit you suddenly.
No, I mean, I have been crying.
It's just like... I don't know the word.
Like, awake?
Like awake?
I'm not sure of the word.
Okay, so keep me posted on how you're feeling, but I guess I just have one more question.
Sure.
Can you fix things with the boy toy?
I hope so.
If there was a way through to becoming more emotionally accessible to you, right?
Because here's the thing too, your parents don't want you to be emotionally accessible to others.
Yeah.
Right?
They're not just running your womb, they're running your emotional defenses, I would assume as well.
Because if you get emotionally close to others, then other people are going to care, they're going to see, they're going to do what I'm doing, which is talk about things and suggest that you tell them or recognize that you can't and accept that.
It's going to be bad for their perceived self-interest if you get emotionally close to people.
So when people get really, really close, I bet you pull back.
I bet you shut down.
I bet you make it impossible for them.
Yeah, I make it difficult.
I mean, for instance, you could listen to the first half hour of this conversation if you like.
Exactly.
Right.
So, I mean, you are a wonderful woman, and he would be lucky to have you with the mother of his children, in my opinion.
So if you can fix things with him, If he can get a way forward to a more equitable relationship, right?
Because look, you talked about having to mother your mother, right?
In other words, you were pouring resources into her and she was needy, right?
Yeah.
So who was running your relationship with your boyfriend?
Because you said that he was pouring resources into you.
It was kind of one-sided.
You were kind of needy, right?
Yeah.
So your mom was running that, right?
Does that make sense?
Because you turned him into you, and you were becoming your mom.
Yeah.
While still also, like, driving the direction that we were going without listening to his suggestions.
Does your mom take any advice?
No.
Do you take any advice?
Sometimes, but not when it counts.
Oh, I asked you.
Now I got a good memory for these things.
I can't remember the table of the elements too much, but I'm pretty good with this one, Sarah.
So I asked you if there was any important advice he gave you that you took and you said?
Yeah, no.
So no input, all need.
That's your mom, right?
And I'm pretty sure he did not want to be dating your mom.
No, I don't blame that.
And you wouldn't want him to be dating your mom either, right?
Right.
So I think that's what's standing in the way of what you want.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Is there anything I missed that's important?
Maybe, but I can't think of anything right now.
That is a very scientific answer.
That is a very good scientific answer.
I will not commit to saying there's nothing, but there could be, but I'm not thinking of anything at the moment.
So hang out.
No, that is a very, very good way to put it.
Does your sister want to call me?
Oh, maybe.
Yeah.
Just let her know.
And if your, if your boyfriend wants to call, ex-boyfriend wants to call me, I'm happy.
You know, I just, I want.
I just want people to be happy and have great things.
And you should have these great things in your life.
I'm sorry about your childhood.
I'm sorry about this assault.
I'm sorry about All that's happened to you, but there's no reason whatsoever why you can't get what you want.
And maybe what you want is you go through all of this, you say, eh, to hell with it.
I don't want kids.
I'm going to do my PhD.
OK, great.
Then at least you don't have ambivalence.
But I think it's going to be more along the lines of, I do want kids.
This has been a way of escaping the emotional truth of my past.
My mom's been running my career, or my mom and dad have been running my career, my boyfriend, my uterus, my ambitions, my life.
And I'm going to detach from that and maybe when my kids are a little older I can go cure diabetes or like it could be any number of things.
But you just have such an enormous potential to bring great light to the world that it breaks my heart to think of where you're heading and how isolated and regretful that could be.
Your mom's had her life, she's made her choices, she's lived her life and I know she's not dying or anything but Her course is largely set, particularly without self-knowledge.
She's just a trained track of history.
But you have choices, and I think you should really explore what's going to make you happy, and to hell with people who've made bad decisions.
their bad history doesn't have to be your future prison.
Will you let me know how?
I would try with the guy.
You've got four years invested and it's only been two months and if you have, you know, maybe he'll listen to this, maybe he'll sort of understand, maybe there'll be big revelation.
He definitely will listen to this.
Good, good.
Well, if he wants to shoot me an email or wants to have a chat or your sister, anything, I'm happy to help.
But I think that with this kind of breakthrough, you guys could get someplace great pretty quickly.
I hope so too.
Thank you.
Will you keep me posted?
Yeah.
Thank you.
Great job.
A tough chat, but you did absolutely wonderful.
Thank you for listening and asking all the questions and calling me out on everything.
You're welcome.
You're, you're very intimidating.
So I'm glad it was, I'm glad it was useful.
But thanks, Emile.
Keep me posted.
All right.
All right.
Thank you so much.
All the best.
Bye.
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