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March 12, 2019 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:01:27
"My Child Died - How Do I Go On?" Freedomain Call In
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so uh yeah well i'm i'm obviously incredibly sorry to uh to hear about your loss of What happened?
Well, it's a little bit of a story.
My son ultimately died in jail.
My son had Asperger's, really high-functioning Asperger's.
Anyways, about a week before, he was having some difficulty And his roommate, he had recently moved out of the house and gotten a roommate close to work, but he still spent a lot of time at home.
His roommate, you know, he lives in a little small town and he had called an ambulance and the police came and he went to the hospital.
He spent a few days there.
I wasn't privy to a lot of the information, you know, because of his age.
He's 23.
And about a week later, the roommate called me and said that Declan, he thought, was having some more issues.
And so he was worried, and so he called the police again.
And the police came, and his roommate has like three little chihuahuas, and he turned his attention to one of the dogs, and Declan disappeared.
And the police were like, well, we'll just go find him.
It's not a problem.
So they called him and said, we found him.
He's in the hospital.
Everything's great.
And he called me.
I'm about 45 minutes away.
And, um, so, um, I said, well, that's great.
I'll follow up.
Um, I called the hospital.
They had no, um, record of him.
They knew, you know, who I was, it's a small town and, um, So I started making phone calls and I called the police station and they're like, well, he's in jail.
And they were like, he's just on a hold for Cherokee County where you live.
Now, I'm so sorry to interrupt you.
If you could just not use his name or geographical locations.
Okay.
That would probably be for the best, but please go on.
Okay.
So, um, so he was on a hold, uh, for another county to pick him up because They said that, you know, he had a ticket from when he was 17 that said he did not have his insurance card on him when he was driving.
You know, so we've never gotten a notice or anything like that.
I know that my son traveled quite a bit.
He worked with a wolfing organization, the Worldwide Organic Sustainable Farming.
And he traveled quite a lot.
He spoke several languages.
And he would tell me that when he came home through customs, they would say, well, you have a warrant in Cherokee County.
And we called the county several times and they said, no, there's no warrant.
There's nothing here.
You know, we use different spellings of his name because his name's a bit unusual.
And so, you know, He called me from the jail and he said that, you know, that they were transferring him that he would call me when he was transferred.
He did call me when he was transferred and he said that they wanted a like a $2,000 cash bond.
This was on, you know, a Saturday and so I said, well, you know, I'll bring all your insurance.
You know, the ticket was for not for having insurance.
He had insurance and they can pull that up in the system.
He just didn't have the card.
I said, I'll bring everything.
And then 24 hours later, we get a knock at my door that your son has passed away.
I mean, I'm astounded.
That's an incredible story.
And so he was, I mean, it's such a minor thing to not have your card with you.
I mean, of course, you should have your card with you, but for him to be in a system and continually to be harassed in this kind of way, and then to be picked up And I'm sorry, I just missed that part where, how did he end up being, what was he picked up for?
Or was there anything else that he was picked up for?
No, that was it.
That was it.
I mean, that was it.
It was no insurance card from when he was 17 years old.
And it's highly unusual because I spoke with an attorney.
The attorney said, this is highly unusual.
And it's kind of like you, he was like, this is kind of hard to believe.
He was like, let me look into it.
And he looked into it.
He was like, you're absolutely correct.
You know, this is highly unusual.
He said, number one, for like a traffic violation to put a hold on somebody is highly unusual.
But to come and get him so quickly is also highly unusual because usually in cases of holds between counties, the way he explained it to me is they wait until they get, you know, several people before they pick them up.
Just as you know kind of a being fiscally responsible, you know, not, you know making lots of trips just for one person.
So it was his kind of hypothesis that perhaps my son's name had come up in this particular County maybe as wanting to question him about something, you know, maybe his name come up in a In some investigation that has nothing to do with my son, maybe they just wanted to speak with him.
He said, you know, that that was the only thing he could kind of hypothesize in a way.
So what happened to your son in jail?
Well, when they came to give me the news, you know, We have a split level house.
I'm standing at the top of the steps and the officers are at the bottom of the steps.
And I don't know, Stephan, I was very, you know, I don't know how mothers react to these sort of things, but I kind of just had a moment of just utter clarity.
And I was just on like a fact finding mission in that moment.
Like I didn't break down and start crying or, You know, anything.
I was just like, OK, well, who was in the cell with him?
They said, oh, well, he was in a cell alone.
And I said, OK, is that usual and customary for him to be in a cell alone?
Because, you know, you hear about jail overcrowding and things of that nature.
And they were like, oh, yeah, everybody gets a jail cell alone.
I'm like, OK, so was he injured in some way?
No, no, we wanted to ask you, did he have any pre-existing conditions or anything like that?
I said, no, he did not have any physical pre-existing conditions.
You know, I said, you know, he had Asperger's, very high-functioning Asperger's and then I said, so, you know, what condition was he found in?
they were like, well, he was found unresponsive.
And then the officer got really kind of agitated with me and said, you know, I wasn't there.
I don't know what happened, you know.
And I'm like, and that was the point to where I'm like, well, I wasn't there either.
And so, you know, you have more answers than I do.
Well, and why would they send someone to deliver the most devastating news you could really imagine without any information?
Right.
And at that point, because he died in police custody, it's turned over to what is the state that I live in, equivalent of the FBI.
And they told me someone would be in contact with me And so, you know, and so that was it.
It was 2.22 a.m.
And, I mean, I assume you had to go down, you had to identify the body?
I mean, how did that play out?
You know, that is such a great question, and they would not allow me to see my son.
They would not allow you?
And that was the first thing I wanted to do.
Wanted to go down there.
I wanted to see him Unvarnished, you know, I really wanted to see him and they would not allow me to see him at any point Because it's an open investigation That he was going to be getting an autopsy which is the state law that they are open the investigation they're doing the autopsy and So That was pretty devastating.
They actually held on to him for so long that I almost could not even have an open casket funeral.
You mean because, I'm sorry to be talking about it in this biological fashion, but do you mean because he had decomposed or decayed in some manner?
Well yeah, I guess that there's a certain amount of time that you need to be embalmed.
And so by the time they released him, my family is from a different state than I live in.
And he was going to be buried in my home state.
So I had already contacted the funeral director there where we were having him laid to rest.
And he told me, he was like, you know, we need to embalm him immediately.
Because I was like, well, if they release him to you guys, I can see him, right?
And they were like, no, we have to have him embalmed in the state you're in.
And they've told me that it needs to be done like immediately if we have any chance of having an open funeral.
Because he said that his body had already like darkened so much.
And I guess I learned a little bit more information about decomposition than I would like to have He mentioned that the body was already black.
Wow.
Now, what happened with the autopsy?
Well, it takes 140 days.
He passed away on November 18th.
And I'm still waiting to hear the autopsy results.
And so we're awaiting that.
And they're awaiting toxicology.
And they won't give me a preliminary report or anything.
But it's... I mean, the autopsy's been done because they don't have the body anymore, right?
Right.
But they will not give me the report.
It's an open investigation.
Have they even indicated what they're investigating?
I can I can, you know, kind of give you, you know, the notes that I took when I spoke with, you know, what I said was the equivalent of the FBI here, who is, you know, you know, he, you know, he told me that there was no I'm going to I don't want to tell you incorrectly.
Absolutely.
Well, I mean, in terms of him dying, I mean, the details may be a bit more than we want to get into, but in terms of just, he died in police custody.
I mean, either he had some existing medical condition, or he was abused, or he was attacked by another person.
I mean, people don't just drop dead out of nowhere, as you know, right?
So, I guess I'm just not... Are they investigating it as substance abuse, as suicide, as assault, as...
A medical condition?
I mean, have they given you any indication of... I mean, you don't have a cause of death, right?
No, no cause of death yet.
So, pending toxicology, he said that there were common scratches on my son, but no injury.
No internal or external injuries were found.
He said that That he felt, and he's supposed to be an independent, you know, he's the guy that investigates the police.
You know, he said he does not see that any criminal action caused his death.
That, you know, and that's what he has said.
And he also said that the presumptive test was THC and amphetamines.
I'm sorry, what does presumptive test mean?
I don't know, and I asked him that.
I don't know, but pending toxicology.
And that'll take 140 days, and they would not give me any other information.
And the other thing he wanted was my son's cell phone.
My son had lost his cell phone and it wasn't with him.
And he was like, and I want your son's cell phone.
And I'm like, well, I don't have his cell phone.
And what was also very odd is that I was having some problems with my cell phone.
I was going to my local cell phone place to get it looked at and I received a phone call.
And it was the police officer that's the head of the jail.
And he said, I have your son's personal effects and I'd like to give them to you.
And I'm like, well, I'm on my way to the cell phone store right now.
I said, and I said the name of the cell phone store.
And I said, but what address do I go to to pick it up?
He was like, I know exactly where you're at.
I'll meet you there and give it to you.
Wow.
And I couldn't even respond.
And my daughter was with me.
So I'm in the cell phone store and he comes in and he was like, where's your car?
I'm like, well, you can just give it to me because I'm not allowed to.
I have to put it in your car.
And when you looked at the bags, they were like, You know, sealed bags, like, you know, the air taken out of them.
Is that like, you know, like?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The vacuum sealed or whatever.
Yeah, vacuum sealed.
And it says on the bag, like, name, you know, officer's name, received items, released items.
All of that was blank.
All of it.
There was no writing on it at all.
He didn't have me sign anything.
But it was just, it's just very, very, Very strange.
Very strange.
I mean, he could have just known the cell phone store that you were going to.
I mean, it may not have been any kind of tracking thing, right?
Well, yeah.
I mean, he could have.
I mean, but for him to be around the corner in five minutes and, you know, like... Well, and nothing to sign for.
That seems odd, too.
Yeah.
But again, I mean, I don't know much about this.
Sorry, go ahead.
It's just odd procedure.
It's just an odd procedure.
I'm not jumping to conclusions or thinking I'm being tracked.
I'm just thinking, why would you do this in a parking lot and you have to put it in my car?
His name's not on the bags.
Nothing is on the bags.
It was just very unusual.
That's, I guess, my point.
Right, right.
So, tell me a little bit about your son when he was younger, in terms of, you said he has high-functioning Asperger's, and when did that first begin to show up, and what was his behavior, and how was he diagnosed in that?
Well, I've thought about this a lot, Stephan, because it's so hard to describe my son.
I mean, I would say that he was incredibly bright.
And precocious and very strong willed, strong minded.
You know, he just kind of had a really tough time his whole life.
I mean, even from the beginning, you know, making friends, getting picked on.
He kind of had both of my children were born in Germany.
And I don't know, but my son had kind of a strong accent.
You could call it a speech impediment, but he had a very strong accent.
And even when he was younger, people couldn't understand him.
I put him in speech therapy when he was like, you know, two and a half, three years old.
And he would go to the speech therapist and say, I like the way I talk.
I don't want to change.
I don't, I love the way I talk.
You know, he did not, He did not want to work on that at all.
He really kind of embraced who he was, created issues for him.
I would say that he wasn't really typical.
For a kid, he didn't like to play with toys.
He loved to be out in nature.
He liked to, you know, dig and build things and make things and be with animals.
I mean, he was really gentle, big heart.
He would feel for animals.
I mean, I know this is going to sound strange, but if we were driving down the road, um, and if, if there was like roadkill or something, my daughter would like, I would either signal my daughter or my daughter would signal me to distract him because if he saw it, he would get very emotional and demand that I pull over so he could bury it and give it a proper burial.
Like he was so sensitive and just had such a, Strong moral compass, a strong sense of self, and it was kind of unshakable and unbendable.
And that didn't work real well in the public school system.
You know, and he was, you know, went through a lot of testing.
At first, it took me years to get the diagnosis of Asperger's, and then various doctors would disagree with it.
At first, when they were testing him, They were like, you know, there's nothing wrong with him.
It's kind of oppositional defiant was the word that was used.
Yeah.
Yeah.
ODD, right?
Yeah.
And then other doctors would say, no, he's not oppositional defiant.
He's just got such a high IQ.
Was he ever tested for that?
Yeah.
Many times.
I don't remember.
I was trying to think I could dig through my papers, but That's kind of difficult right now.
No, that's fine.
But he, I mean, you're saying he was very smart.
He was genius level IQ.
I think it was like 140 or something.
Yeah, that's pretty good.
He was huge on history.
He knew, I mean, he knew so much.
He loved languages, loved history, whatever he took an interest in.
I mean, you know, my daughter was in college and he did not want to go to college.
And she was, you know, in a class, I think it was like chemistry, organic chemistry or something.
And he just liked organic chemistry and like she was having a lot of problems with it.
And she called him and she was like, you know, and he helped her.
You know, that was kind of, you know, my son, like he was just so smart.
And then what did he do?
He went through the public school system.
Is that right?
Through high school.
And what happened then?
No, no, no.
I took him out of the public school system and I homeschooled him.
The public school system did not work out at all.
No matter what program, what they tried, all of the testing, they wanted to put him in.
He was the first child in the school history to be suspended from school at five years old.
Well, at that time, They had tested him for the speech therapy at this particular school that he was in.
We had moved to a different state and he did not qualify for speech therapy.
He could make all of the sounds and, you know, and do all of it, but they couldn't really understand him.
So they would pull my daughter out of class to kind of translate for him.
And my daughter, Who is really loved school and who is kind of a real A-type personality.
She doesn't like to miss class or miss anything.
You know, she came home and I told the school, I'm like, you've denied him speech therapy.
You can't pull her out of class, you know, anymore to translate.
If you want him to, you know, communicate better, you're going to have to give him the therapy.
And so on one particular day, You know, my son was going to school and I'd kind of bought them new school clothes and told them, you know, about taking care of your clothes and everything.
And that particular day, the teachers wanted to put name tags on the children with stick pins.
You know, there was like, you know, like a job name tag.
And he was like, no, I don't want you to put a hole in my new clothes.
I can't do that.
My mom told me no holes in my clothes, you know, and they, and they tried to hold him down and do it.
So he ran out of the classroom to try to go to my daughter's classroom and the school counselor caught up with him and He struggled to get away and pulled his tie.
So they suspended him for trying to strangle the school counselor.
They wanted him out of the school.
He just pulled the tie.
And then at that point, I was given a choice to send him to a special school for special testing.
And it was a special school that He's only going to be there a short time for observation.
They're going to do full battery of tests.
And he went there and it was a school of, um, and, and the classroom had lots of nonverbal children, children in wheelchairs, children that used boards to speak, uh, children that were, um, had high levels of mental retardation while they did this testing.
And That was difficult because, you know, he really didn't like it, but he didn't like the way the teachers treated the other children.
And so he would come home and tell me like what they're doing to the kids, like they're smacking them.
Like the one nonverbal child in the wheelchair, they were smacking him in the face.
And he would like go up to them and say, you know, you don't do that.
That's not right.
Well, the teacher ended up smacking my son in the face.
And then she took him down to the principal's office and she used the stairs.
And as she's taking him down the stairs, she's stomping on his feet with her heels the whole way down.
I saw the video.
That's how I know that.
But the teacher, I was sitting at the bus stop and she called me and I'm waiting.
And she was like, I just want you to know That I smacked your son in the face today that he was being disrespectful.
And she did it.
So I went up to the school and that particular teacher was, you know, you know, put on vacation days or something.
And they said that she would be returning.
And I'm like, I don't want her in the classroom with my son.
And they were like, well, You know, we could actually press charges against him and we can call the police and have him arrested because, you know, and it was just horrible.
So I ended up, you know, they were like, but you could change schools.
So I changed him to another school, which was about 30 miles away.
And this school was actually really awesome.
He was a minority in that school.
As a matter of fact, he was the only Caucasian child in the school.
Um, and, um, he loved it.
They were, but it was again, a special classroom for testing and everything.
And they loved him and the principal loved him and the teachers and the kids loved him.
And he loved, he loved, you know, that school.
And he actually, um, You know, tested so high, um, for like, you know, the standardized testing that the state does every year that he got the highest score in the County's history.
And they were so proud of that because that raised that school score.
Um, but you know, they, but once the probe, you know, they did their assessment, you know, then he had to either, you know, go back to the originating school or, I could homeschool.
So I chose to homeschool.
Right.
And how old was he at that point?
He was, I want to think, six?
Now, let's just go back a little bit.
So he was born in Germany.
Does that mean that his father was a military man?
No, his father worked for an independent contractor that works with the military.
Right.
But his father was raised in Germany for a lot of years because his father was a contractor with the military.
So his father.
What happened to his father?
you haven't mentioned him much?
His father was very, very abusive.
Very narcissistic.
And It was, and he targeted my son.
You know, when I got pregnant with my son, he did not want me to have the pregnancy.
But how did you get involved with such a man to begin with?
Well, Stefan, I would have to say that, you know, when I met his father, when I met his father, I did not see any of the warning signs.
He was really great.
I went to Germany numerous times.
We had a great time.
We dated for four years.
And I mean, we really had a great time.
I traveled all over Europe with him, you know, and we had a great time.
And it was something about, you know, I was told I would never be able to have children.
I had some experiences when I was younger.
And so I was not able to have children.
Sorry, what do you mean by experiences?
Well, I was sexually assaulted and that created some female issues for me.
I'm very sorry to hear that of course.
Yeah, so I was very young and it caused a lot of damage and scar tissue and things.
When you say very young, do you mean you were below age?
Yes.
A child?
Yes.
I'm so sorry.
Was this a family member or a stranger?
Yes, it was a family member.
My childhood was very tumultuous.
And it was, you know, it was, you know, I was in foster care most of my life.
And, you know, it, you know, and, but, you know.
I'm sorry, what happened to your biological parents?
Well, my biological parents, you know, my biological father left the picture When I think I was probably about, you know, three or four years old.
My mother remarried four times after that.
My biological father was, you know, I think that it was kind of the, in my family, that you don't speak ill of someone's father.
You know, like, I was only told really great stories about him.
You know, like, oh, he was great.
He was so handsome.
He was so this and that.
You know, my mother never spoke ill of him.
She thought that was the way you do things.
You don't speak ill of people.
But in reality, he was a really horrible person.
Which I came to find out later.
But my mother and my biological father, you know, did some things.
Then they ended up in prison a couple of times.
You know, very high profile things that were in the news on, you know, one point like every night it was on the news.
They hung around people that were not of good character, you know, and, you know, which left my brothers and I vulnerable, you know.
And so my mother, you know, for whatever reason, you know, wasn't real attached to me as a child and really didn't show me A lot of affection or, um, you know, my brother was always with her, but I was always off at a babysitter's house or something for weeks.
Like, you know, I would be dropped off and, but they would, the babysitters would be paid very well.
So I would be there for weeks without a toothbrush, without clothes, be wearing other children's clothes.
And, um, you know, and then, you know, she was, you know, She divorced the second husband who was, you know, very wealthy, but then divorced him.
And then there was the third husband who was a child molester, you know.
And, you know, and so I basically kind of put myself in foster care by
Constantly going to the authorities that I didn't want him touching me and that really angered her and the people that were babysitting me started to take foster children and then applied for me to be in their care and you know and my mother came to court and said that I was a liar and that you know that I liked I like to make things up and
The judge didn't believe her, so I went into foster care.
At that time, I think I was like 8, until I was 18.
Wow.
Wow.
That's a wretched existence as a child.
It's a heartbreaking story, and I'm so sorry that you went through all of that on every conceivable level.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I was just, you know, even at that age, Stephan, I really, even as a kid, I was just like, I want away from these people.
I don't want to be like them.
I want away from these people.
And, you know, that was my thing.
I was so happy to be away from it.
Even though I was sad to be kind of alone, I was so happy to be away from it.
I just did not want to be anything like those people.
You know, and I wanted to be different.
I wanted to have a different life.
I didn't want to be a statistic.
You know, I never went into, you know, I think I kind of went the opposite direction.
I wanted to be, you know, kind of perfect and really good at everything.
I didn't want to be promiscuous.
I did not ever want to do drugs.
I did not want to, you know, be that statistic and, and be like those people, you know, more so that, you know, so, you know, I think if you were to like ask people from high school or something, you know, I was, you know, I was very conservative.
I went the total opposite route of, you know, the environment that I was raised in.
Right.
Well, sometimes evildoers can point us in the right direction in a strange kind of way.
And so then how did you meet, I don't know if you guys got married, but how did you meet the father of your children?
Yes, we got married.
Well, when I turned 18, I was, you know, I was, you know, let go out of foster care.
Not a lot of options.
I reunited with my mother who had remarried her fourth husband and she'd really been working on herself and her fourth husband was amazing and I love him.
I mean I consider him my father even though I didn't have a long time with him.
Absolutely stellar person and human being and wonderful and I mean my mother was like a different person like being with him made her a better person and so I moved to the city that she lived in and I had a girlfriend that I was working with and her boyfriend sold suits at Neiman Marcus and a bunch of guys from Germany were on a business trip and
They bought a lot of suits and they asked me to go out that night that they were meeting them and so I went and we met and you know he was just you know and I had not had a lot of relationships or anything you know I was very you know again very conservative he was just you know so awesome and fun and you know and he did not do drugs he didn't drink he was
Very good moral compass.
And, you know, we hit it off right away.
And he called me and this was when, you know, calling from Germany was very expensive.
He sent me a plane ticket, wanted me to come visit.
So then our journey began.
and um you know and um i noticed then that we had a lot in common as far as like similar kind of backgrounds and the fact that he very much disliked his mother because he felt that they were very neglected as kids
he came from a family of six and he was very determined not to be like his family who were kind of not doing the best things in life other than his father who was the contractor that raised him he and his brother were raised by the father and his sisters were raised by the mother
so we had kind of a a kindred spirit in that effect that we both wanted better for ourselves than what our families you know had had had done so he got a transfer to the united states everything was great in europe we could He got a transfer to the United States so that he could finish his degree and he couldn't go to school in Europe and get the degree that he needed and
So we got transferred to the town that my mother lived in and I got us an apartment and set us up.
And that's when things started going sideways because he had a couple of friends that he'd gone to high school with that were pretty successful guys come and move in.
And that's kind of when like I'm cooking dinner and he's like, I'm like, Oh, I need, you know, onions or something.
He was like, Oh, I'm going to run to the store and then not come back.
And then show up at four in the morning, uh, you know, drunk and belligerent and, uh, just, you know, talking down to me, uh, being degrading to me, bringing up really personal things that I confided in him about my past in front of his friends.
And so at that point I called, you know, My mom's husband, who I considered my father, and he was like, I'm on my way, and he came and got me, and I moved out, and I'm like, that's it.
But wait, so you were living with him, were you married at the time?
No.
No, so you were living together, and then he's just like, yeah, my friends are moving in, or?
Yeah, yeah.
Did you think that was a good idea, or?
You know, I was kind of like, it was going to be like a temporary thing so that they could find jobs and get on their feet.
And I'm like, you know, we're all, you know, like 20 something.
And I mean, it really didn't raise a red flag because the friend that he was bringing over, we hung out with constantly in Europe, like really nice guy that we hung out with constantly and there was never a problem.
So I really didn't, But the other friend I had never met, and he, I realize now, was like the alpha in the group.
Oh, the bad influence, right.
No respect for women, no, you know, kind of, you know, very narcissistic, you know, very grandiose, you know, just, it was shocking.
I mean, honestly, it was shocking.
And how long into the relationship was this?
This was probably, you know, three and a half years.
Wow.
It reminds me a bit of your mom, who's kind of a shadow cast by the company she keeps.
Yeah.
Right.
Okay, so then there are these problems showing up before you get married, right?
Yeah, that was definitely a problem.
And so I moved out and that was it.
Um, he ended up getting a transfer to another state nearby where we were and he was calling me all the time, you know, and wanting to see me, wanting to see me.
I said, no, no, no.
And, um, you know, I was, you know, so I think, you know, like six months had gone by and, you know, I'm still not dating anyone else.
I'm not, I wasn't, you know, a serial dater.
You know, I was pretty, like I said, conservative.
And so he called me and said, I'm going back to Germany.
You know, I've got my, I've got, I'm just, they need me there.
They're starting up a new thing that they want me in on.
And he was like, I really want you to just come and see me.
Um, and, um, he lived in a place where skiing is prevalent.
He's like, I'd really like you to come see me and go skiing before I leave for Germany.
And I've sent you a ticket and I just, I just want to mend things.
And you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not going to, you know, be around.
And I said, well, okay, but I was in the hospital.
Um, because of my female problems, I would be plagued with really bad hemorrhagic cysts where, you know, um, I wouldn't even know I had internal bleeding and, and until I couldn't hardly walk.
And they would have to do ultrasounds and I would have to be on bed rest.
So I was in the hospital and I'm like, well, I'm in the hospital now.
And he was like, well, I'm sending you the ticket.
See if the doctor will let you go.
So, um, um, I spoke with the doctor.
He was like, yeah, you're the bleeding stop.
Everything looks good.
He was like, but I want to see you as soon as you get back just to do another ultrasound to make sure you don't have any internal bleeding.
And I said, okay, so I went on this trip to go skiing and it was a weekend and then I came back home and I went to the doctor that Monday, you know, that Monday and the doctor was like, wait a minute, I think I think something's going on here.
And he went and got another doctor.
And then there were three doctors there.
And I'm like, well, what's going on?
Am I bleeding?
They were like, no, you're pregnant.
And that was from the weekend.
I mean, it was, yeah, it was like, showed up that quickly.
Like, just, it was like, like, I was like four, you know, four days, whatever, pregnant.
They were like, there's this little, like, looked like a little lima, you know, bean.
And he was like, but you know what?
Don't get too excited because this could go into a tubal ligation or something like that.
But the doctor sat down and he was like, there's no possible way that you should be pregnant, but if you were going to keep this, if you ever wanted to have children, you may, if this pregnancy even holds, you may want to consider it.
You're like Jurassic Park, you know, life finds a way.
Yeah, it was shocking.
I was just shocked.
And so it was really weird that he called me and he was like, I had a dream that you're pregnant.
Were you guys back together at this point?
No, he had just called me like, you know, after the trip to say he was headed on to Germany.
And I'm like, I just left the doctor and I am, they said I'm pregnant.
And he was like, well, that's so awesome.
I love you.
I want to marry you.
I mean, that's awesome.
Like he was, you know, you know, super excited about it.
And you know, what's interesting is that he has a lot of nephews and I had seen him with his nephews and he's like the favorite uncle.
You know, they all love him.
So I had no reason to think that, you know, he would be not a great father.
You know, he's like... Well, hang on.
I mean, there was his susceptibility to bad influences going out to get something, not coming home till four in the morning.
There were some indications of instability.
Is that fair to say?
Yes.
Yes.
Right.
OK, but go on.
So, um, you know, you know, this is, you know, kind of my, you know, the last thing in the world that I wanted was to be an unwed mother in my mind.
You know, I know that a lot of people, it didn't make, you know, it doesn't bother them or, you know, with other people, it's kind of, Well, you grew up with a lot of strange men floating around, some of whom were real predators, so you want a pair-bonded relationship to raise your kids, right?
Biological dad around and all that kind of good stuff, right?
Yeah, I mean, the thoughts of being an unmet mother was like the absolute lowest, to me in my mind, the lowest thing that I could have sunk to, to be, you know, kind of, you know, to have that stigma, you know?
I mean, honestly, that's... And so, I went to Germany.
We were married.
And the pregnancy held, and that was your son, right?
That was my daughter.
Oh, your daughter.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
And, you know, throughout the pregnancy, he could not have been more wonderful, more Doting, I mean, it was, went to every doctor appointment with me, was there.
So when did things start to go awry with your husband?
When I got pregnant with my son.
Was it when he knew it was his son or just when you got pregnant?
Well, it was initially when I got pregnant.
He was like, you know, I don't want two kids.
You know, we can't afford that.
He's very big on money, being very fiscally responsible with money, and just wanting to own things and land, and wanting to invest in properties.
He and his father had already owned a house together that they were paying together on, and that was just kind of not in his plan.
I think that that is when, you know, he really started, you know, not coming home when I'm pregnant.
Sorry, had you guys discussed the numbers of kids that you wanted before you got pregnant again?
No, because they had told me that was like a one-off.
Like, well, that may have happened that time, but even the German doctors were like, yeah, there's no way you'll ever have another child.
Okay, so you hadn't discussed what would happen if you got pregnant again?
No, no.
And I assume it wasn't, I mean, he's in Germany, he's working in the military industrial complex, usually there's quite a bit of money sloshing around.
I assume you guys weren't living under a bridge or anything?
No, we were, you know, he didn't make a ton of money, but we were quite comfortable, company car, and in Germany at that time, if you traveled a lot, Um, the company would pay for your spouse or your girlfriend to travel with you.
It was, it was permissible, you know, and, um, you know, it wasn't, you know, a ton of money, but it was, you know, we had a company car, it was good perks.
So you could have afforded a second child.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
And, um, they also, you know, gave you Kindergeld, which was like, They paid you to have children in Germany.
If you had a child, they, you know, they gave you to kindergarten.
You know, so... Okay, so things went bad during the second pregnancy and when did the relationship break up?
Well, I came to the United States to visit my mother and bring my daughter.
And while I was here, it was time for me to get a check.
So, I went back to the doctor that had taken care of all my cysts and stuff just to get my routine checkup.
And they called me and they said, there's a problem with your blood work.
You've tested positive for trisomy 18.
Now, from what I understand, trisomy 18 is kind of Where, and it's been a long time since I've looked this up, but it's basically where either the baby kind of just everything shuts down and they either die in your womb or as soon as they're born, they don't live very long and they just kind of everything shuts down.
And so the doctor was like, you know, you're probably going to need to go ahead and schedule to have an abortion.
I was five and a half months.
Oh, okay.
Wow.
No, five and a half months.
And I'm like, well, that's not an option.
I'm not, you know, I'm not having an abortion.
And so I called my husband and he was like, yeah, you're having the abortion.
And I'm like, well, no, I'm not.
I'm like, you know, my, my feeling is this.
Either this child is going to die, you know, in the comfort of my womb, knowing it's loved or in my arms, knowing it's loved.
I'm not, I'm not doing that.
And so he was like, well, this is my decision too.
And I'm like, well, no, it's really not.
He was like, well, then I'll divorce you.
And I'm like, well, that's fine.
I'm like, but I'm not doing it.
And so it's not, I mean, he, he should, he's the husband.
He should have some input in the decision, right?
You know, I mean, honestly, definitely at that time in my mind, absolutely not.
I mean, he was going to have to pay, right?
So I mean, look, I'm not saying he should have the decision, obviously, right?
It's your womb, it's your body and so on.
But he should, it should be a negotiation or some kind of input, right?
Well, I felt like we should be able to talk about it.
But he had lost his sister unexpectedly.
A few years before and he told me, he said, you know, my reasoning for this is I can't go through another death.
And I said, I know, but my reasoning to him was this is a death no matter how you look at it.
An abortion is a death or if it dies in my womb, it's a death or after, you know, so basically you're asking for me to go through this alone.
And, you know, and he was like, well, I just, you know, we can't afford it anyway.
And, you know, so that really, I think, put a wedge, a deep wedge.
Sure.
So I went down.
The other option was to go and get amniocentesis done, where they take the needle and get the amniotic fluid and test it.
But that, yeah, that can be a slightly risky as well, right?
Yeah.
So I agreed to do that to get some more testing done.
So I went down to the local university that specializes in that and I did the test.
It took about four weeks to get that back.
And they said, you know, and during that time he's still trying to pressure me.
And I'm like, let's just wait for the, see what the results and everything is.
And when the test results came back, they said it was a false positive.
A false positive.
And a false positive for what?
The trisomy 18.
Oh, oh gosh.
Oh gosh.
Okay.
Wow.
What a rollercoaster.
And they even, told me, you know, from the amniocentesis, they were like, he's going to have blonde hair, brown eyes.
He'll be born on this date.
It's a male.
You know, they could tell me so much from that.
So, I really don't, you know, think that, you know, things were the same after that.
And so how long did it take then for the marriage to end?
We were together a total of, you know, we were married in 93 and divorced in 2005.
Wow.
And we were together four years before that.
So probably we were together, you know, 17 years.
But, you know, so, yeah.
And.
And your daughter is overseas at the moment, right?
Right, and so let's talk a little bit about what's been going on in your heart and in your mind since the death of your son late last year.
What is he saying?
Because you first contacted me during a live stream and you said that, and you know that's not something I can really do much of use in a live stream, but Yeah.
I assume it's very difficult because your daughter is not with you and there's a lot of unanswered questions.
And what was your son working on or doing or what was his life like last year?
He traveled a lot.
He was doing, you know, the wolfing program, which is the organic sustainable farming.
He spent a lot of time in France working at a chateau.
He spent a lot of time in Spain.
He went to Turkey.
He went to Columbia.
You know, he loved to travel and he loved to work with his hands.
He loved to be in nature.
And you know, and he had a really, you know, and he would come home kind of to make money so that he could go back out and travel.
Because when you work on those farms, you're just basically working for food and board.
And, you know, it's kind of like you're working for food and board and you're gaining the experience.
Right.
Did you know what he was going to do in the longer term?
You know, I didn't.
You know, he really wanted to join the military.
The United States military wouldn't accept him.
Is that because of his Asperger's?
I think so, because he tested really high.
That he went to the French Foreign Legion, and they told him to come back, that they would be interested, but they felt he was a little too young, and that a lot of the times when Americans joined, and they were that age, they would, you know, desert.
So he was thinking about the French Foreign Legion.
He really loved working construction, and with his hands, and building things, and he had a really great work ethic.
Everybody really loved him when they worked with him.
was really hard worker and I think in construction they would say that's so hard to find with somebody his age.
But he still had a lot of anger with his father and the targeting of his father and the reason I left.
Sorry, the targeting of his father?
What do you mean?
When he was young, you know, his father really wouldn't have much to do with him.
Oh, you mean, sorry, the fact that his father targeted and bullied him?
Yeah, he bullied him constantly.
And what did he bully him about?
Like his accent or his, you know, somewhat, I guess, slender social skills?
I mean, what was his father bullying him about?
You know, my son was very charming and was very good socially.
He just wasn't good with, you know, like long He would make great impressions, but he didn't have a lot of follow-through with relationships.
But anyways, he would just like... I could tell you a story, Stephan, that would blow your mind.
I would be in the kitchen cooking, and we had a china cabinet.
And my ex-husband put a video camera on the china cabinet with a remote control to it.
You know, like the old-fashioned, you know, video cameras.
And he would go into my son's room and say, you know, I hate you.
You're worthless.
You know, uh, you know, and my son's just sitting there playing video games or something and he's just antagonizing him.
And I was in the kitchen cooking and then he would go back into the living room and play the video camera and, and like open a book and push play.
And my son would come in there going nuts.
Like, I hate you, I hate you, wanting to hit him.
Wait, sorry, the video camera was in the other room?
No, it was in the room where he was sitting reading his book.
But he would turn it on so he could get my son's reaction.
But why, how would your son, I'm sorry, I'm just missing this part, how would your son know that the video camera was turned on?
He didn't know.
Until, he didn't know, my son didn't know, because at this point my son's like, you know, five years old.
He would start going crazy.
Oh, sorry.
I think I understand.
I apologize.
I just missed that bit.
So your husband would go in and taunt your son and then would just go and sit and read and then would record your son coming out being angry because that would, I guess, make your son look crazy and your husband look sane?
Yes.
Oh, I get it.
I understand.
My apologies.
Okay, I got it.
That's exactly the kind of stuff he would do.
That's really calculated stuff.
That's not heat of the moment stuff.
That's like cold ass calculated mental training.
Oh, yeah.
And then he would say, oh, I've got this on video now.
I'm going to show this to everybody and they're going to take you away.
You're crazy.
You're horrible.
Oh my gosh, are you kidding me?
That's psychotic!
Yeah, it was, and then he, you know... What would you be doing doing this kind of stuff?
I was in the, well, I came out of the kitchen when I heard my son yelling, and I'm like, you know, and he was like, he's, and I heard him talking about the video, and everything, and I'm just, you know, getting my son, I'm like, it's okay, and I'm taking him out of the situation.
And I'm, you know, and I'm telling him, I'm like, what are you doing?
Why are you doing this?
Why are you doing this?
You mean you'd be saying this to your husband?
Yeah.
And he would just be like, because he's, he, he deserves it.
He's horrible.
You know, he's a smart aleck.
And that was the thing about my son.
My son would look at him at five years old, Stefan, and look at him and say, and then my ex-husband would like push me.
And he would say, you know, You don't push my mom.
You're not a man.
He would say, if you want to hit somebody, hit me.
I'm more of a man than you.
I mean, this is like my five-year-old.
Like, he would challenge him.
He would never back down.
He would challenge my ex-husband and say, you, you don't touch my mom.
You don't touch my sister.
You're not a man.
I mean, he would, he would, and I would be trying to, but he always like, you know, He, you know, at five years old, he felt like he had to be the protector, you know?
So how long did it take then for things to end?
Well, um, he would, um, you know, I called the police cause he kicked my son in the stomach and he flew across the room and the police came.
We were in a small town in a kind of a, You know, upper middle class community, um, with their own police department.
And the police came and I'm out in the front yard with the kids because I'm, I wanted not to be, you know, hit anymore and wanted to get my kids away from the situation.
And, um, so the police come and go in there and like leave us in the front yard for like an hour.
And, um, They come back out and they're like, well, did you hit your ex?
Did you hit your husband?
I'm like, well, no.
And so they're like, well, he's got a, a big, uh, bloody face.
I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about.
So apparently when I called the police, he like took his face and bashed it into a door jam or something.
He injured himself some way.
to try to tell the police that I had hit him.
And so they were like, you know, you're gonna be lucky if you don't go to jail.
And of course, at this time, my kids are crying.
And so they take the kids off and the kids are talking to them.
And they came back and said, you know, I want you to know what a horrible mother you are that you've brainwashed these kids like this.
They're saying exactly what you said and the fact that they're saying it exactly means they've been brainwashed and your husband is right and you know, I'm pretty much in shock at this point but there was a female officer there.
And she took me aside, and she was like, I'm new here, and I'm from Chicago.
She was like, and I want you to know that I've seen a lot of abuse in my time.
She said, but this guy is really good.
She said, he's got them convinced that you've done this.
Oh, you mean the police people?
Yeah, and she said, If I wasn't here, you would probably be going to jail and if you don't leave this guy, you are going to end up either in jail or you're going to end up dead." She was like, because this guy is that good, you know, um, he is, you know, and he has everybody believing this
and, um, you know, so, um, that was when, um, you know, I went to my husband and I struck a deal with him and I knew what mattered to him. I went to my husband and I struck a deal And I, and I felt like that he was trying to do everything he could to try to run, run me off, you know, to make me leave.
He, he, He was trying to torture us into submission of leaving and the main thing that he cared about was his resources.
Oh, so like if you bail without demanding alimony, child support or a lot of it, he might be more amenable to that?
Yeah, so I went to him and I said, you know, we owned a property in another state, a little farm.
We owned this house.
And, you know, he had like money from his retirement from working in Germany, money there.
He'd moved up in the company quite a bit.
And I mean, and if you would have met him, I mean, everybody loved him and he was so nice and kind.
And my next door neighbor, who I had become really great friends with, she told me, she said, you know, if I didn't, she goes, I would have never believed it if I didn't see it, Rhonda, you know, because he's, he's so good.
He's so good at when the door closes, you know, you know, the torture begins.
And so I told him, I said, I will give you everything.
You can have everything.
All I want is full custody of the kids.
And that's it.
And so he agreed.
So I have an aunt and uncle that live in another state that offered me a rental property.
till I get on my feet.
I hadn't worked in like ten years.
I don't have a degree or anything but so he agreed and I left and you know with the full custody of the kids.
So you know and I've been and so I went and got a job and working part-time.
And I kind of structured my work and my finances so that I could work three days a week and live, you know, uh, uh, pretty, you know, uh, simply.
And that way I could still be there for my kids when they got home from school.
So I got a waitressing job where I could work from like six to 11 and, um, I really enjoy, you know, communicating with people.
So I would get really good tips and stuff and that worked well for me.
And we were really, really happy.
And, you know, I was, it was like I wasn't gone.
You know, I was just gone while they kind of were going to bed.
I'm there in the morning.
I'm still going to all the field trips.
I'm always the room mother and never missed a field trip.
You know, things like that.
But then my son started just really having, you know, the behavior issues and anger.
And how old was he at this point?
I believe that at that point he was, you know, nine.
Yeah, nine.
How did you explain the end of the family to the kids?
You know... It's always a tricky thing, right?
Because if you say too much truth, it can be inappropriate for kids.
But if you gloss it over, then they don't really understand why the family ended, right?
Well, they know why the family ended because they were there.
I mean, you know, they begged me to leave.
They were like really begging me, let's go, let's get out of here.
And I'm like, well, how would you, you know, and I talked to them like we could go move to this state and they were all for it.
They could not wait to leave.
I mean, you know, they really wanted to leave.
And your son was, you were homeschooling at this point, is that right?
Well, not at that.
I had homeschooled previously, but I put him in school in that state and he had done really well for a time.
He had a really great teacher who he really clicked with and did really well.
He would do really well in school if he had the right teacher.
Right.
If he had a kind of a nurturing, sweet teacher that really was that kind of personality, he did really well.
If he had the type of teacher that was like, sit down and shut up and you do what I say and don't ask any questions, he didn't respond well to that.
It really, he could be successful in school if he had, you know.
But when we moved to the new state, it's a border state, and it was a high, you know, kind of a lower population of Caucasian kids where English is their primary language.
So immediately he was being jumped at school, being bullied because of his, you know, his race.
And he was the kind of kid that if you, if, if, you know, he would be attacked by six boys and he would never, he would get back up.
He would get back up and, and, and, and, you know, and he, he, he would never quit.
He would never quit, you know, he would just get back up and, you know, how many more people do you want me to fight?
You know, like he had a lot of anger, you know, and, um, so I ended up, um, you know, taking him out of school and homeschooling him there.
Um, because it, it, it just wasn't a good fit no matter what I did or how I tried to, um, you know, make things happen there.
Right, okay, okay.
I think I have a fairly good view.
How long was he homeschooled for then?
He was homeschooled, we were in that particular state.
I homeschooled him for two years and then we decided, you know, He got into some trouble and I moved states.
He got into trouble?
Yeah.
In what way?
Well, he was outside playing and he got jumped again.
Yeah, he was jumped and he ended up, I believe, knocking one of their teeth out.
And at that point, I was contacted by authorities and I was told, you know, we're probably going to end up, because we've, you know, we're probably going to end up putting, you know, him into a home or something, you know, or into a group home or something.
And, you know, and that really terrified me, you know.
So I decided at that point that I didn't want to trust the system, you know, and even And so I moved back home to the state where my mother lived.
That's when he started middle school.
And so he was going into 6th grade.
My daughter was going into 8th grade.
And here we go again where, you know, I got a really good job.
Um, um, I being called at work to go to the school.
Um, and I go there and, and again, he's like, um, you know, being jumped by kids.
They had it on video again where he was jumped by these kids and he's fighting.
And, you know, and at this point we had gone through like a lot of, you know, scenarios of situations with my son.
I'm like, okay, if you start having problems, you go and tell, you know, you go to the adult and you let them know, you know, let's, let's stop this before it starts.
You know, let's try to put an end to it.
So on this particular day, it was a PE class and he went to the, um, The PE teacher and said, you know, these guys are wanting to fight me and I don't want to get in any trouble.
And the guy was like, well, just sit down and shut up.
You're fine.
And then as after PE, these walk into the locker room, they got him in the corner and then he ended up hurting one of those guys.
Um, and, and, and he wasn't, um, a big kid, you know, he, he was kind of a smaller kid.
He kind of went through a growth spurt a couple of years later.
Well, but he's also, I guess, got quite a bit experience fighting by now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, I got called down to the school.
They show me the video, but they're going to suspend him because, you know, he's not allowed to fight back.
Well, if he gets jumped, he can't fight back.
And were these white kids or Hispanic kids or what?
Um, no, they were African-American kids, I guess.
Um, you know, um, They were doing a special program in the school where they were bringing in kids from the inner city or something, and they were under a special program, like a busing program.
So the kids didn't get in trouble or anything, but my son got expelled.
Oh yeah, because they have to keep the numbers down for disciplinary actions often for the African-American kids?
Yeah, I mean, you know, we ran into a few problems at the school because My mom lives in a pretty affluent neighborhood, and the school system is very well sought after.
And my daughter, we'd previously had problems with the principal because, with my son too, where when my daughter was riding the school bus, they told her she wasn't allowed to sit down, that she had to stand.
Who told her that?
The African American kids.
Oh gosh, okay.
And so my son was like, Sit down.
You're not standing.
And my daughter was on crutches.
She had a broken foot.
She'd broken her navicular bone in her foot and she was on crutches.
And my daughter was like, I don't want problems.
I'll just stand.
And my son was like, you're not standing.
You're going to sit down, you know?
And so I went to the school principal.
They were like, Well, we'll see that somebody walks them to the bus and they can sit down.
So, um, they didn't follow through.
I think they did it one day where they made sure my daughter was able to sit down.
And then as soon as they left, they're like, you, you don't sit down.
You sit, you stand in the back of the bus.
And then of course, I think that's probably the same kids that jumped my son because my son was like, you don't talk to my sister that way.
And she's not going to stand.
And, um, you know, so, There were problems there, so at that point, I ended up taking both kids out of school and talking to them and homeschooling them.
I found a really awesome homeschooling program, an online program, that's really outstanding.
And so my daughter really loved it.
My son was a little bit more difficult to homeschool, but you know, But it worked out.
Right.
OK, so I think I've got a pretty good idea of the situation.
And I'm sorry, I mean, the fact that you're basically a white son and I guess daughter were bullied by Hispanics and blacks and I'm sure some other races, maybe even whites as well.
But I mean, that's really rough.
So what is it that I can do best, you think, to help you in the concluding part of the call?
I guess, Stephan, I'm really, I guess, you know, when this hits you, you're looking back at like, what could I have done differently so that he would still be here?
You know, like what's, and then my daughter who's just so outstanding and just a great kid.
You know, and she's still dealing with this father who hasn't changed at all.
Why is she dealing with him?
Well, I guess, you know, I think she wants him to change and to be more of a father and even at the funeral, you know, he kind of was back to his old self and was
You know, but then right after the funeral, you know, he's, you know, right back to being, you know, just horrible to her.
Yeah, I mean we kind of, when it comes to changing people, I think we need to not look at our sentimentality, we need to look at the actual data.
Do people change?
And my understanding is, and you know everyone should look this up for themselves, but my understanding is that if you're not a healthy person who has problems, in other words what's called character logic, which means that the issues are not part of your personality, they kind of are your personality, That expecting someone to change personalities is like expecting them to change height, or hair color, or eye color, or something like that.
And so, you know, maybe for your daughter, you know, she needs to look at the data, the facts, and the experts about people's capacity to change.
And of course, for most people, particularly, I assume, these kinds of people, By far the best predictor of future behavior is relevant past behavior.
If you want to know how someone's going to act tomorrow, you look at how they acted yesterday.
And for the vast majority of people, that's exactly what you're going to get.
Particularly, and for me at least, it becomes a virtual 100% certainty if they don't even admit there's a problem, right?
Right.
So that level of sentimentality of what I would like versus what the data and the experts say, you know, smokers don't want smoking to be harmful to them, but it is.
Drinkers don't want, you know, alcoholism to be harmful to them, but it is.
So what we want versus what actually is has to be separated.
We have to have that strictness with ourself.
Because we can talk ourself into and out of just about any perspective when it comes to sentimentality, but when it comes to the evidence and the facts, that's where our salvation is going to lie.
Yeah.
And regarding your son, if you have a couple of big regrets, now regrets don't mean...
that you did anything wrong, right?
Regrets can be just combing over to make sure any potential lessons have been learned.
But if you were to verbalize your top one or two regrets, what do you think they would be?
I think that one of them would probably be maybe letting him have real-life consequences.
Hmm.
What do you mean?
I think that, you know, instead of like, you know, I kind of felt like at the time he'd been through so much and I didn't really trust the system, you know, I didn't trust that the system No, no.
We've heard the history, right?
So just tell me you're thinking about why he didn't have real-world consequences and what that meant.
Because I don't think that he got that there are consequences for your actions.
No, I understand that.
But what was it that you wish you had corrected in him more?
I don't know, Stefan.
I honestly don't.
I just, I feel like that with my son, he, he tend to blame other people a lot.
Like, you know, you know, even, you know, when things didn't go his way, well, it was kind of like not taking responsibility for, for his actions, you know, for, for, you know, the series of, well, this is why things didn't go right because you A, B and C, you know, and not, But maybe that was part of the Asperger's, I don't know.
Was there something in particular that didn't go right that you think was very important that he blamed on others?
Not that I can think of off the top of my head.
You know, he was...
It was important to him to get his German citizenship.
He wanted to get dual citizenship, and he went to Germany and tried to do that.
And they wouldn't give it to him, even though he was born there.
And he would say, well, this is your fault.
You should have done this.
He would say that to you?
Yeah.
If things didn't go right in his life, it was my fault.
Whatever it would be, it was just kind of... At one point I was like, I'm not giving you advice anymore because if I give you advice, if it doesn't go your way, then it's my fault.
When it's just, I'll give you my opinion, but you have to make the decisions for your life.
You know, it was a lot of him wanting my daughter and I to do everything for him.
And I wish that earlier I would have made him do more for himself.
You mean like sort of chores around the house kind of stuff?
Yeah, just take responsibility, you know?
Um, I think with his, with his, with his, you know, with his anger.
But do you think that you modeled that responsibility?
Because when I asked you how you got involved with your ex-husband, you said that he was just fantastic at hiding it and there was no real way you could have known.
I mean, if you want kids to take responsibility, because you have a daughter still, right?
Right.
If you want kids to take responsibility, then you can't make excuses for yourself, right?
True.
And you were with a man who tortured, it seems to me, tortured your son.
He was, what, five or so when you left, right?
And you let your son, of course, witness you being hit, and your ex-husband, as you say, was psychologically torturing your son, maybe physically abusing him, I don't know, but... Yeah, he was physical with him as well.
Okay, so he physically abused him, if I understand what you're saying correctly, and psychologically abused him, physically abused you, I assume that there was abuse of your daughter in there as well?
Yes, he was mentally Yeah, with her as well.
Right.
Now, I mean, of course, the primary moral responsibility for that lies with your ex-husband, but this went on year after year until it became unsustainable for you, right?
In other words, your kids were facing abuse and things continued, but when you were facing jail, things ended.
No, I... Well, Stephan, I think that's...
One way to look at it, it wasn't about me facing jail.
It was about him having access to be alone with them and me not being there to protect them.
Well, no, no.
I've got to be at least firm with you here.
And again, I'm certainly happy to be corrected, of course.
But if I remember rightly, the female police officer from Chicago, when your husband had inflicted a wound upon himself and had convinced the cops, she said, if you stay with him, you're going to end up in jail or dead.
And that's when you decided to leave.
Yeah, because it was shocking at the time, because I would have never thought that he would have gone to such an extreme.
But what motivated me at that time wasn't, oh, I fear going to jail.
What motivated me at that time, I never left him alone with the kids.
I never left him alone with the kids.
Like, not even to go to a movie or anything.
I was with them 24-7, without, I mean... But weren't you cooking in the kitchen, if I remember rightly, when your husband went in to start mentally torturing your son?
Yes.
But what I mean is, I'm on the premises.
My fear was that I'd be arrested.
What did you do to stop that when it was occurring?
I went in and interfered, and I got my son and my daughter, and I called the police.
Oh, no, no.
I mean just when your husband would set up the video camera and so on, right?
Like, he would be in there with your son, right?
My son was in his room.
He was in the living room with the video camera, and I didn't know he was setting that up.
Okay, okay.
All right.
So, yeah, I mean, this is just a general point for parents out there that you have to be relentless in taking responsibility for your own actions.
And, you know, without a doubt, I mean, the father that you chose for your children was abusive and destructive and crazy, according to your reports.
Again, I don't have his side of the story, but according to your Reports and it seems that when I sort of tried to talk to you about responsibility in that area There's a certain amount of evasiveness or avoidance if that makes sense No, no, I definitely is Stefan.
I definitely take responsibility.
I mean, that's why That's why I came up with the plan.
I came up with you know, like You know, that's why I was like I need a way out.
I mean I When I lived with him, I wasn't allowed to have a car, I wasn't allowed to have a credit card, I wasn't allowed to have a checking account, nothing was in my name.
Wait, when you lived with him, so do you mean years before you had a kid?
When I was living with him before we left.
Oh, when you were married and had children with him?
Yeah.
So before you got married and when you were living with him in the past, there were none of these restrictions.
But then after you got married and had kids, there were these restrictions.
Is that right?
Yes.
Okay.
And, you know, I didn't have a car.
I didn't have anything.
I had to make a list to get it approved for the grocery store.
Was there any part of you that said I should get out during the time that these Stalinist restrictions were being imposed upon you?
I think that, you know, I was trying to work things out.
You know, I was trying to...
I was trying to, you know, you know, I probably felt like there was something that I was doing wrong or that I was not doing well enough.
So I started concentrating on making better dinners, doing things better, being better.
And so at first, It was all just targeted toward me.
Okay, no, I understand that.
And look, I sympathize.
I do understand how these manipulative people can get in your head and make it all about you.
But let's say, and I can guarantee, hang on a sec, so I can guarantee almost statistically for sure that there are many, many women who are going to end up listening to this who are in these kinds of relationships.
All right, they're scarcely relationships, right?
But these kinds of situations.
And in hindsight, knowing now what you know now and looking back in time, what would you like to say to the women who are experiencing these kinds of controlling relationships?
Oh.
Could be men too, but I mean just for women for the moment.
You know, run.
Run as fast as you can.
Get out immediately.
And what's the first sign that they should run at, do you think?
When they try to isolate you from everything and everyone.
You're not allowed to talk to the neighbors.
You're not allowed to talk to your family.
You're not allowed to have relationships.
You're not allowed to have a bank card or a car or you're cut off.
You're isolated.
And how long after you got married did that start to happen?
Um, we had separated at one point and and then I went back with him and at that point...
And why did you go back with him?
Well, I had left him, and I came back to my mother's house, and you know, My father, you know, my, my, my stepfather that she was married to the one I told you was so wonderful.
He was like, just leave.
And I'm going to buy, I'm going to get you a house.
I'm going to get you set up here in the state they live in.
And so I left.
Um, we left, everything was great.
And we found a house.
We were, we got it approved.
And then he had a, um, An aneurysm.
Your ex-husband?
No, my stepfather.
Okay.
And so when he had the aneurysm, he died very suddenly, unexpectedly.
And at that time, my mother was like, well, we're not getting the house.
I'm not going to make any decisions for two years because that's what all the statistics say.
No decisions for two years, no money decisions.
Also, your mother backed out of the house that your stepfather promised you, knowing that that would have a significant likelihood of you going back to your husband.
Yeah.
Right.
Right, because you couldn't... I mean, if you're a waitress, were you a waitress at this point, or was that after you left?
I was not a waitress at that point.
I was doing office management.
So you had an income, but was it not enough for you and your kids?
No.
I mean, it was, it wasn't enough to get a house because I didn't have the work history, you know?
Right.
But it would have been enough to, you know, make the payments and everything.
He was just going to like put the down payment and, and, you know, purchase it, you know, and I would pay the mortgage and everything.
But when that fell apart, you know, I have a brother that has a long history of drug abuse and alcoholism.
And he was really, you know, he was moved into the house and you know... The house that was supposed to be yours?
No, into my mother's house where we were staying.
Okay.
And so, you know, that's when I really felt like I had no choice but to go back with my ex-husband.
I mean, there was a choice, right?
I mean, if your ex-husband, I don't know, had had the aneurysm instead and there'd be no money, you would have found some way to survive, right?
Yeah, well, he came back and he went into counseling.
He got on some medications.
He, you know, was taking, you know, some medications for anger.
You know, different things.
I met with the psychiatrist that he was seeing and he was coming to visit the kids and he was really putting on the full court press and so I agreed to it and then I went to live with him in a different state and then probably about, you know, a few months later he's like,
I'm not taking the medication anymore because it interferes with my sexual function.
Um, I'm not, you know, and then things started reverting back and that's when I left again.
Um, you know, and my aunt and uncle helped me, um, you know, with the rental property in the different state.
And that's when I was done.
Right.
Okay.
Yeah, so regarding this loss, I mean, it's a very tough thing and I can't even tell you how much I sympathize with this kind of loss.
It staggers the imagination and I am so sorry about what happened.
Regarding how we deal with the loss, I mean, obviously I can't tell you how to deal with the loss.
I can certainly give you some thoughts about ways in which I've dealt with loss, though I've not faced anything like this.
So, the dead can speak to us in terms of lessons learned.
And if we learn, like if there were lessons that could have been learned that may have helped with the situation.
I mean, nobody says it's your fault.
Obviously, I completely want you to understand that.
I mean, you know, even, but even if you're the victim of something random, there can be lessons learned that can help yourself, that can help others, that may be able to help your daughter, right?
And for me, I get stuck in grief.
When I'm not able to formulate a way of understanding the grief that doesn't blame myself, but also gives me some room to learn lessons to change and improve in the future.
And for me, at least in particular, if I can bring those lessons to the world as a whole, I mean, that may be more, that's sort of my job, so to speak.
For me, if I can learn the lessons of grief without self-blame, and it's a tricky thing, right?
Because you want to say, well, you know, there are some lessons that I can learn from this, but at the same time, you don't want to say the fact that my son died in police custody is somehow my fault, right?
So it's a balance, and it's a tricky balance, and I just want to, you know, really reinforce how tricky that balance is.
So for me, I can sit and say, well, you know, if my childhood was very bad, not as bad as yours, but my childhood was bad.
And what could I learn from that?
Well, what I did learn from that, which took me too long, I think, to learn, although I sort of sympathize with myself because I'm going against so many social standards and breaking so many taboos to say, well, I don't want to have anything to do with an unrepentant, unapologetic, abusive people.
But the lesson that I could learn out of that was, okay, well, I just have to not have these kinds of people in my life.
That's the only lesson that I can really learn from it.
Now, then of course I face the tricky problem of saying, well, I did have these people in my life for many years, and how do I deal with that?
Well, I have to sort of forgive myself and say, well, I didn't know what I didn't know.
Now I know, and the lesson is hard, and can I learn anything from that lesson?
The greatest honor I think that we can give the dead is to learn, as much as we can, from their death.
And that learning can be very deep and very existential and very personal and sometimes moral.
And from that standpoint, learning the lessons of the dead, what Can we transmit to the world either explicitly through some sort of communication or implicitly just through our actions?
And this communicating to the world can be as simple as talking to your daughter about things or talking to other family members or friends about things and lessons learned and so on.
Talking to the world to me is the best way that We can honor the dead so of course my relationship with my mother is dead and will not be resurrected and I'm sure she's pretty old now so it's not going to be long until that's not even a theoretical.
So what is it that I can learn from the death of that relationship?
Well I can learn And I can learn to be a better parent myself, of course, right?
I mean, and that gives the evils that my mother did, it gives them some redemption.
I can't give her redemption because that's not in my power to give.
I can't, you know, if somebody keeps smoking, you can't heal their lungs at a distance.
I guess you could donate your own, but I can't donate a conscience and better, a good conscience and better behavior to my mother.
So with regards to my dead relationship with my mother, I can learn the lessons for myself and become a good parent myself.
And that turns, I mean, I'm a better parent because of my mom.
I mean, it's one of these weird things in life that I'm a better parent because my mom was a terrible parent.
And I can do that Now, I also have a capacity, a desire, and the willingness to communicate some of the lessons that I've learned to the world as a whole.
Now, that may not be your thing.
It may be more personal, and that's perfectly valid.
One is not better than the other, but it is a difficult thing, because I could sit there and say, well, society never told me I had a choice, and so I'm not going to have any judgment of myself for continuing in a relationship that was abusive for so long.
And that's, I can certainly say that.
However, there were examples in, I mean, gosh, there are examples in The Fountainhead that Ayn Rand's novel about not having abusive people in your life.
And there was a particularly toxic mother, Peter Keating's mother, for those who want to read the book, and you really should, where I had examples that I read in my mid-teens about the destructive nature of this kind of single mother and so on.
And she was more Psychologically abusive and manipulative than physically.
But there were examples that I could have chosen to absorb, imbibe and act upon.
But I didn't.
And I can't blame myself for that, like I'm a bad person, because... But at the same time, I have to push the responsibility further back than when I made the decision.
Because otherwise, you basically... I end up saying to myself, well, everything I do is right.
Like when I was in that relationship, it was right.
And then it wasn't right for me, so I was out.
And I'm right about that.
And that may give me some comfort regarding the past.
But what it does do, is it has me fail to be more self-critical in the present.
Because if everything I do is right, and I did it all at just the right time, I don't have any capacity to do anything other than be kind of inert in my own life and wait for something to change or wait for an impulse to strike me, and then that becomes the right thing to do.
So for me, that balance of pushing responsibility back in time prior to when I made a better decision and saying I was responsible for that negative relationship, but at the same time not self-attacking and saying, well, that makes me a bad person or it makes me wrong in some fundamental way, that makes me a bad person or it makes me wrong in some fundamental way, because then you end up paralyzing yourself with So that's a delicate balance, and that's for me the best way that I have found.
to deal with this kind of grief.
Because, you know, your daughter is obviously still alive, and you're still in contact, which is great.
And she's going to have kids.
And I know where she is, though I won't say it here.
And I know that her kids are going to have trouble in school if she decides to put them in government schools.
And it may very well be the kind of ethnic trouble that occurred for your son or other kinds of trouble.
And so maybe there's things that you can talk about that can help prevent your grandchildren from going through the kinds of challenges that your son went through and listen I mean with all due respect you you did some wonderful things and made some wonderful decisions with your son with regards to pulling him out of a difficult school environment and homeschooling him and you worked really hard to try and keep him safe and for that you should be enormously applauded and you also of course want to make sure
That you learn the lessons of spotting the kind of character that your ex-husband had.
That you learn that lesson because it would be beyond heartbreaking, I'm sure, for you and for your daughter as well, should any other kind of man like your ex-husband end up worming his way into your family and being the father of your grandchildren.
And so learning the lessons of how to spot pathological personalities early on so you don't end up with a husband who punches himself in the face, fight club style, in order to try and get you thrown in jail and psychologically tortures your son and physically abuses both of your children and then promises to change and then changes back. in order to try and get you thrown in jail And you don't want anyone like that anywhere near your family again.
So again, looking back and saying, okay, well, what were the signs?
And if you can be honest about the signs with yourself, then it's going to be a lot easier for you to scan your daughter because your daughter still wants a relationship with someone like her father.
She still wants a relationship with her father, which means that she's not accepted and absorbed how destructive people like that can be.
And so if she's yearning for...
Her father, she's going to also end up yearning for a man who's kind of like her father.
That's just how it's going to work.
Whether it would be because that's all she's used to, or what she's most used to, or whether it's because she has a desire to save him, and therefore she's going to find a man like her father in order to try and save him as well, who knows, right?
But to sort of go back in time, and these kinds of disasters and tragedies do yank us almost against our will back through time, It's so important to go back through time to scan for the dangers that led to the disaster.
Because you can't go back in time physically, of course, to prevent your son's death, which is beyond tragic.
But you can go back in time through your mind and look for anything that may have led to that particular disaster.
Not with the purpose of beating yourself up, but with the purpose of trying to prevent any kind of recurrence from occurring anywhere in your family circle in the future.
And that's, I think, the very best that can be done with a disaster like this, if that helps at all.
Wow, Stephen, that helps tremendously.
Um, my, um, my daughter, um, you know, she's such a great, great human being, a great young lady.
You know, she's, um, she's been dating a guy, uh, for the, you know, she's, he's for the last, uh, I think about two and a half years and he is just, So outstanding human being, so stellar.
And he is just amazing.
And it's the only... Well, but hang on.
See, now this is the kind of stuff that I'm concerned about.
Because you said this, that your mother had this big turnaround too when she met this better guy.
But then your mother wouldn't let you have the house that kept you safe from your husband.
Right.
So I'm concerned a little bit about this, he's so wonderful, he's so wonderful.
Because you did say that regarding someone else who did make a decision that had you go back and expose your children to further abuse.
And I assume that your mother knew about the abuse that your husband was inflicting upon you and your children.
And the idea that she'd read some magazine article that says don't make any financial decisions for two years after someone's death and would say to you, well, you get to go back to your abusive husband while at the same time you say she had a real transformation and she was wonderful.
It's this kind of sentimentality Nobody's that good.
I'm not that good.
You're not that good.
Nobody's that wonderful.
And if you pump up this positivity, what happens is you end up losing track of any warning signs.
I'm not saying that your daughter's boyfriend is like your ex-husband or anything like that, but I am very concerned with this level of sentimentality and, you know, she's so wonderful and he's so wonderful.
It's like, okay, if she's so wonderful, why is she still trying to fix her father?
If he's so wonderful, why is he, quote, allowing that to happen?
That's a good point.
Um, I think that, um, you know, my daughter, you know, went for like, she can go for like two years at a time with having nothing to do with the father.
And, um, she just doesn't want the negativity.
She's, you know, at university, um, working really hard, you know, she's, um, an extremely hard worker, you know, as where my son was very, uh, Gifted at everything.
My daughter has dyslexia and dyscalculia.
So she's had to work really hard She has a great work ethic and she has to work super hard at everything scholastically and You know and the the man that she's dating I say that he's really stellar because
I've met him, his entire family, the extended family, and they are like the best huge support system for her.
It's not just him, it's everyone.
And they all support her, and they love her, and it's like, and she's so far away from me, and there's not that here.
So, but it's just, they really are, truly.
I don't want you to give me another round of positive adjectives.
Your daughter's gonna have some problems, right?
I mean, just the way that she grew up.
She was abused for the first five years of her life, right?
Yeah, yeah.
So, if these people are so wonderful, why would they necessarily want to get involved in what is still a somewhat dysfunctional environment with regards to your daughter?
Now, I mean, I'm sure you've done wonderful things with her, I'm sure she's doing wonderful things as well, but there must be some reason why he would get involved With your daughter, and if he is and his family is that healthy and that stellar and has no issues, then what would he have in common with your daughter who grew up with a significant amount of dysfunction, right?
I don't know, Stephan.
I mean, I think that the thing that he loves about my daughter is that, you know, my daughter is, you know, she's, you know,
Really open and honest and she's really a hard worker and I don't know that I can answer that other than, you know, I think that also a lot of people their age, I think that, you know, my daughter, you know,
He was pretty much the first guy she dated because she did high school and college at the same time, you know?
No, listen, and all I'm saying is, listen, everyone has dysfunction.
Hang on, hang on.
So everyone has dysfunction in the world.
Yeah.
And you do, I do, your daughter does, her boyfriend does, his family does, because even if you're the sanest and most rational person in the world, You still have to live in a world that is often anti-rational and violent and manipulative and so on, right?
So it's a difficult life.
And it's an easier life than we've had through a lot of times in history, but it's a difficult life.
So when you paint with these broad brushes like they're so wonderful and they've got no problems and no issues and so on, what you're doing is you're setting yourself up and you're setting your daughter up to not track and notice dysfunction.
Because you're painting a complex thing with a very bright neon brush of perfection, and that's my particular concern.
And listen, I mean, I've made the point.
I mean, you can either take it or not, and obviously I'm just some guy on the internet, so I'm not trying to tell you what to do, or, you know, well, you've got to go out and think badly of people.
I'm just saying that we all have our issues.
My concern is that when you paint with this broad brush of positivity, that you're going to miss any signs.
Now listen, the fact that he has issues, which he does, everyone does, the fact that he has issues and irrationalities and hiccups of problems and so on, doesn't mean that your daughter can't have a great relationship with him, doesn't mean that she can't get married to him if she wants and have a great life with him and so on, but I'm just concerned that The positive adjectives a lot of times have to do with vanity.
You know, like, my daughter's so great, and her boyfriend's so great, and so on.
In some ways that sort of puts you in a good light, right?
Which I understand.
And that's what we all want in the world.
But that's not the way the world is.
The world is a challenge.
The world is full of problems, and people are full of problems.
And it's important to keep your eye out for them so that you can help them.
Because if things are just positive, positive, positive, and you don't notice any issues or you wish them away, it just means that you're flying kind of blind.
And that's sort of my concern.
And if there was a lesson to be pulled out of the tragic death or whatever happened with your son, that to me would be One of the ones, which is just really, really keep alert to help each other in life.
Your daughter's going to need guidance, her boyfriend's going to need guidance, which means admitting that they have problems and issues and so on.
So that's, I mean, I have to kind of wrap this up now, but I just, that's sort of my major issue as I was listening intently for, I guess, what, close to two hours now.
That's what I was really, that's a pattern I sort of noticed.
And, you know, there were no problems with your husband.
Until, you know, boom, and then he just changed 180.
And that's just not the way personalities work.
Of course there were problems before.
Of course there were hints and issues before.
But it's a way of dealing with this kind of blindness to dysfunction, is to say, well, He was perfect and then he was just evil and life is not that way as far as I've ever seen or experienced that there are issues that you can see ahead of time and again I'm not saying your daughter's boyfriend is like your husband I'm just saying that you need to stay alert so that you can navigate problems rather than just everything being wonderful and then everything being a complete disaster.
There's ways to navigate and be alert ahead of time that can help head off these issues and that's sort of the major thing that I think is probably The most important lesson to get out of what happened with your son.
Yes, understood.
Understood, Stephan.
Understood.
You made some great points.
Absolutely.
Well, first of all, I really, really appreciate the honesty and candor of what you've talked about today.
I also, again, want to reiterate that you really worked hard to do the very best by your son in many ways, and that's something to be incredibly admired and respected, and I really just wanted to reiterate that.
But will you keep me posted as things go forward about what happens when you find out what happened with your son?
Yes, absolutely.
It would be my pleasure.
Well listen, thank you very much for the call.
I wish you the best and I certainly look forward to hearing from you in the future.
Thank you Stephan.
Thank you so much.
You're welcome.
Take care.
My sympathies again.
Thank you.
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