Nov. 21, 2016 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
52:19
3505 Winning the War Against SJWs | Gavin McInnes and Stefan Molyneux
What is the state of the culture wars within the western world? Gavin McInnes joins Stefan Molyneux to discuss the fallout from the presidential election, the rise and fall of social justice warriors culture, the failure of the victimhood mentality, liberal projection, the lack of null hypothesis among leftists and the growth of alternative media. Gavin McInnes is the host of The Gavin McInnes Show with Compound Media, a contributor with TheRebel Media and was an original co-founder of VICE Media. Compound Media: https://www.compoundmedia.com/show/the-gavin-mcinnes-show/TheRebel Media: http://www.therebel.media/gavinmcinnesTwitter: https://twitter.com/Gavin_McInnesFreedomain Radio is 100% funded by viewers like you. Please support the show by signing up for a monthly subscription or making a one time donation at: http://www.freedomainradio.com/donate
We are here for the very first time with Gavin McInnes.
He is the host of the aptly named Gavin McInnes show on Compound Media.
He's a contributor with The Rebel Media and was an original co-founder.
I actually thought it was just a vice, as in bad habits, but it's actually vice media, which also seems appropriate.
We are here, of course, to engage in a battle of the beards.
You can find Gavin's work at compoundmedia.com, therebel.media, and, I don't know, for the next 18 minutes or so, at twitter.com slash Gavin Underbar McGinnis until the next purge occurs and we all have to go to Gab.
Anyway, nice to meet you, Gavin.
How are you doing today?
I'm great.
How are you, Stefan?
I'm well, I'm well.
So, where do you think we're at in these big-time culture wars that seem to be rolling back and forth like spent-up mustard gas across the Western landscape?
How do you think we're doing?
I mean, it is a pretty sweet place to be at the moment.
I'm still waiting to come down from last week's election.
I'm still waiting to come down from last week's election.
Still not happening yet.
Still not happening yet.
This may be a permanent plateau, but where do you think we're at in the general battle for the West?
This may be a permanent plateau, but where do you think we're at in the general battle for the West?
Well, we won.
Well, we won.
We're in the lead.
The fight is over.
But have you ever traveled with, say, eight people?
Even if you're going from your house to the restaurant and everyone's getting their stuff on and you're out the door and you go, where's Alex?
And you come up and he's running around trying to find his keys.
And you go, guys, let's go.
Come on, I've been outside for...
So I sort of assumed we would all be out of the house at the same time, but I was at church on Sunday, and everyone was really morose, because they were all for Hillary.
And I'm sort of looking around going, oh, I guess we're not all on the exact same page of this incredible, joyous victory.
Some people are lagging behind, and BuzzFeed...
Just had a big video on how, you know, we're here to work with you and Lena Dunham is calling Paul Ryan and we have still with her these hashtags.
So I feel like a lot of these dumb social justice warriors, it hasn't sunk in yet.
There's still Alex trying to find his keys and I'm sitting there going, let's go!
Yeah, it's basically like trying to get a bunch of cats suited up to go skiing in February.
It's a mess.
And with Lena Dunham, I'm sort of ambivalent about this because there were, of course, the threats she was going to come up here to Canada.
I know you're originally from this neck of the woods.
I'm still here, as you can tell from the white background.
It's just not a studio.
It's just a wall of snow.
Everybody needs to know that.
But Lena Dunham was threatening to come up here.
I was ambivalent because part of me is like, well, it'd be great if she left America because there'd be less toxicity in American culture.
On the other hand, I don't know that Lena Dunham plus Justin Trudeau would be a particularly positive combination for the remaining freedoms in Canada.
Plus, of course, there are these materials.
You can't cross the border with hazardous or toxic materials, so I don't think she could get across.
Why the church?
Why was the church so pro-Hillary?
Do they want World War III? Is this some end-times prophecy that they want to fulfill?
What's going on?
I'm in New York City, so the church, the bank, the train...
Everywhere you go, you know.
So I'm walking around with my MAGA hat, trying to high-five people, and I just see people going, oh, God.
You're the person in New York who voted for him.
You're the one.
I knew there was one.
I knew it couldn't be anyone I knew.
Well, in fact, we keep hearing about all these horrible hate crimes, but there was just a guy in New York on the train who was strangled for wearing a MAGA hat.
And then in Connecticut, two guys beat the crap out of someone, and I think they stole his car because he had a Trump supporter.
Sticker?
I mean, there's this sort of lag behind with all the riots and everything where they're still trying to come to terms with the fact that they lost.
This is what I can't understand, Gavin.
I mean, I don't know if you've ever been in a situation, I guess your background is Scottish, I assume, so I'm going to assume yes.
I don't know if you've ever been in a situation...
Where it's been a particularly hard drinking or late night kind of week.
And you look around and you don't exactly know how you ended up with the companions that you ended up with.
But you know they are not a savory bunch and that you hope that you haven't committed some blackout crime at some point during the week.
At some point you've got to wake up and look at the company that you keep.
And hopefully that will shock you into some sort of better path.
So the people who are the Hillary supporters, I mean, they look around and they see all of this violence occurring, these threats, these death threats.
You know, there was this old story that as soon as Obama got in, death threats against the president rose.
And of course, they didn't.
But I really do believe it's the case now with Donald Trump.
You've got CEOs of tech companies threatening to assassinate him and all.
At some point, don't you look at the company you keep and say, well, this is the crowd I was running with that now want to violently or threateningly or terroristically overturn a legitimate election and And are overlooking significant crimes being investigated and overlooking the fact that she really seemed to be quite keen on starting World War III and establishing some completely insane no-fly zone.
Yeah, really, it's a great way to keep Russian planes on the ground.
Just ask them nicely.
I mean, don't they look around and see the company they keep?
And when this sort of endorphin clears and the smoke clears from the election, wonder who the hell they woke up next to?
No, the opposite, actually.
So they become...
You know, there's a study that Jim Gold wrote about where...
They discover that when people are confronted with data that contradicts their beliefs, they become more steadfast in their beliefs.
We see this with cults where they talk about the apocalypse.
It's going to happen on April 13th.
And then on April 15th, they have more followers than before.
So I feel like these people have taken the narrative and multiplied it by two.
Like they said Trump was Hitler and he's going to start killing everyone.
And then it happens.
You know, he becomes the president.
You go, all right, so your myth has been shattered, right?
No.
Now they're laying the groundwork for the imminent gassings and death.
The news this week is all about the alt-right.
I was on CNN last night.
They're talking about Richard Spencer, who's, by the way, just kicked off Twitter.
And they want to know about this alt-right, which is very, very extreme far-right dudes.
And they're saying, well, now that you guys are in control, what are you about?
And you go, is it possible that your narrative is wrong?
Why are you laying out the new Hitler America without considering the possibility that it's not?
Well, I don't think they can consider that possibility.
And of course, I'll sort of listen to people who talk about the extreme right as soon as they start talking about the extreme left.
You know, the alt-right has harmed no one to my knowledge.
However, the Communist Party of the United States seemed very, very keen on Hillary Clinton.
I don't believe she was ever asked to disavow from an organization that represents an ideology that killed about 100 million people.
That's two and a half times Hitler, by the way, for those who are counting at home.
She was never asked to reject that.
Richard Spencer is probably the most extreme alt-right guy and he has all these normal points and then he says, I say to him, is there a future for non-whites in America?
And he says, no, not really.
Okay, that's pretty extreme.
But you take that and you flip it and you say, take the same Richard Spencer, make him black, and then take that last part and make it black.
I don't see a future for whites in America.
And you could see this guy getting invited to lectures and Fraternizing with the academic glitterati.
I mean, he'd be known as an intellectual hero.
So I am totally ambivalent about the alt-right.
And these people are really, they're just getting a cold splash of water in their face.
And the mistake I'm making is they get the splash of water and I go, okay, so come on, let's go.
And they're going, no, I'm freezing now.
I've never had this much water.
And I go, all right, well, how long do I have to give you?
Like here in New York, I know a lot of guys are in the doghouse.
My brother had to sleep on the couch last night.
I'm a pariah within my wife's family because they're all liberals.
And it's not like I want to debate you.
It's like It's the same sort of feeling as if I had an affair with a 15-year-old and it just came out.
There's no explaining.
You did a horrible, disgusting thing that is indefensible.
So you just have to go wait over there for a little while.
And all over New York, I keep seeing these guys in the doghouse and I think, but we won.
So shouldn't you be in the doghouse?
You should be apologizing to me.
Yeah, this question of sort of ethnic homeland nationalism is – I think it's going to be a very, very big topic over the next little while.
And I think it should be a topic that is entertained for the simple reason that – I mean, the left, of course, whenever white people talk about it, oh, no, it's the most horrifying thing ever.
Next thing, we've got jackboots and ovens and so on.
But the reality is if you're really against ethnocentric nationalistic governments – Well, shouldn't you really be against, I don't know, Saudi Arabia?
See, Saudi Arabia, if you said, we want to move a couple of million white European Christians or atheists into Saudi Arabia, they'd say, hell no, or whatever the consideration might be.
So they have a very sort of ethnic nationalist state.
They want to keep it Arabic and Muslim and so on.
And, you know, it's their country.
I mean, I don't sort of wake up saying that needs to change in some fundamental way.
I mean, it'd be nice if they were a little more inclusive, but, you know, it's not a big part of my day.
So if...
It's really, really bad to have an ethnocentric nationalistic government.
Then shouldn't the left be criticizing Hillary Clinton for taking so much money from Saudi Arabia, which is itself an ethnocentric nationalistic government?
I just want the same standards.
You know, there's tests in Israel that you have to have a blood test to see if you're Jewish enough to get in and live.
You know, and it's their country.
But why is it that, you know, oh, well, if white people are doing it, it's the worst thing in the world.
But they don't notice anyone else who's doing exactly the same thing.
Here's the irony, Stefan.
Out of all the different races and ethnic groups, we are the least like that.
Like, we are the least nationalistic.
We're the least ethnically loyal.
But we get accused of it the most.
I mean, we just had Barack Obama, who was elected because he was black.
The black vote that came out for him was insane.
And if you asked any of these people what your favorite Barack Obama policy was, you know they have no answer.
And we saw the exact same thing with Hillary.
She was popular because she was a woman, and every time they asked women, what do you like about her policies, they'd always just say, well, she has a vagina.
And that's two presidents, one anomalous president, that was based totally on identity politics.
And we're the least, white males are the least identity politics group, especially in America, especially in North America, yet we're the ones who have to be kept away from the fire the most.
It's absurd.
Well, I mean, I think we all know, I think we all know that the reason that White males are accused of racism bigotry is because we pay up.
It's like this Catholic guilt thing, right?
It's the original sin called white privilege, and we'll pay to make it go away.
We'll give away jobs to make it go away.
We'll give away countries.
We'll give away just the whole thing.
If you make us feel guilty, we'll pay you.
We'll give you resources to make that feeling of guilt go away.
And this basic question, if, let's say, and this seems to be the case in the West, if the only really racist group is whites or white males, Then, shouldn't we do all of the other ethnicities a favor and keep them away from white countries?
I mean, isn't this a really toxic place for other ethnicities to be?
Either it's really, really bad, like whites are really terribly racist, in which case keep these people away, or whites are not particularly racist, but people come over here and scream racism, in which case that's not a particularly beneficial situation for whites, and that's sort of the fundamental question around diversity.
I actually think diversity might work If people could refrain from playing the race card or the ethnicity card.
But since that seems to be an impossible thing to ask for humanity, I don't know that it's going to work.
Look at Britain.
It works great.
You know, they had the Jamaicans come in in the 60s and 70s, the Yardies, they called them.
And they are now some of the most patriotic football enthusiasts in the history of Britain.
They're all over the English Defence League.
Sikhs are another group that tend to assimilate really well.
Indians, Hindus...
Anyone with a weird religion does well, but Muslims, not only do they tend not to assimilate, but they tend to encourage others to unassimilate.
And when I'm thinking of, I was just talking to Tommy Robinson about that Jamaican kid who was part of the London bombings and married the, I think they call her the White Widow.
It's a religion and a culture predicated on not assimilating.
And I think, you know, Western males are sort of going, It's not really my predisposition to be going, I'm a white male.
But when you tell me I suck, we go over and we Google it, and we go, actually, cement, electricity, cars, I like us.
We seem like pretty decent guys.
Maybe you're wrong.
And here's the other thing, by the way.
You know how we're always the butt of all jokes?
Like every commercial has the white male going, what is this plug?
And the woman goes, here, let me take you to Sears.
Or Homer Simpson or the dad from Married with Children.
We're always the buffoons.
Isn't it you conceding some sort of superiority when you make us the only one that can handle the jokes?
I mean you'd never have a black woman, Homer Simpson, because you're saying that she's inferior and couldn't handle it.
So in a way, the fact that they treat us like the only ones that can take this abuse means they think of us as superior.
So in a way, us contending that is us being more egalitarian than they are.
I could stand a little bit less of that privilege.
You know, it's one thing, see, I mean, I'm a little older, so I sort of grew up without this kind of stuff.
Like, I was raised in England.
I went to boarding school, very patriotic, very nationalistic, and there was never any sense that white males were buffoons or anything like that.
So I was not indoctrinated into that stuff very early on in life, and it really only started creeping up over the last, for me, sort of 10 to 20 years became really a cliché.
But I sort of think about raising...
Sons in this kind of environment, white kids, and the amount of toxicity and self-hatred and bigotry against the self that's being poured in, that's the sort of basic question that it comes down to, which is at some point you have to sort of say with mass immigration from the third world, multiculturalism, what's called diversity and so on.
Okay, what's in it for me?
Fundamentally, what's in it for me?
Okay, my taxes are going up.
The services are going down.
There's lots of cultural disruptions.
My kids are being taught that they're bad people because they're white.
I'm failing to find much of a silver lining in this cloud at the moment.
And not just what's in it for me, but what's in it for you?
I mean, look at Muslims.
You fled a country that had this in power.
If you're coming to Canada from Pakistan, you fled a Muslim country that was designed to placate All your fears and help you worship Allah and you came over here.
So clearly it's not working out great for you.
And I honestly think that this Western male patriarchy, this Western patriarchy is what's best for visible minorities, Muslims, gays.
And that's what I was talking to you about earlier where I've been just taking their narrative and instead of going, no, no, I'm not that, because that's your knee-jerk reaction, going, but wait a minute.
Who is like that?
I get these common criticisms, especially working in the creative world, like in film and TV, where people go, oh, I don't want to work with him.
He doesn't think women should be allowed to work.
He thinks women should be at home.
And instead of my knee-jerk going, no, no, no, I just think most would be happier at home with kids, instead of saying that, I go, well, let's just play out your version of events.
Okay, so I think it should be illegal for women to work.
I have a secret police force with a paddy wagon outside of all these office buildings.
We drag you from your cubicle when you're caught working.
We have a fake mustache on and a fedora.
You're going, hi, I'm one of the guys.
I love tits, man.
I'm a normal dude.
And you go, wait a minute.
You're a chick!
And we grab you and throw you in the paddy wagon.
Or they say, you know, I think trans people are, for the most part, mentally ill gays.
And that's become, you want trans people to die.
And I think, before I'm defending myself, I'll go, who wants trans people to die?
Even the most crazy, redneck, evangelical, born-again, he wants a trans person to be shot in the head by who?
The police?
And then we put the body in, what, a body bag?
And then it's in a mass grave?
Like, how does your version of events play out?
Well, I mean, of course, this is people who have a great deal of difficulty with some basic facts.
And the facts are, of course...
That, as I've talked about on this show many times, when it comes to women, the bell curve for intelligence is more like a penis and less like a boob, right?
It goes sort of clustered around the middle and it's not quite as horizontal.
Men tend to be smarter in aggregate and dumber in aggregate because nature rolls the dice with the providers to see if they work out well or not.
Men are more comfortable with risk and so on.
And of course, when it comes to a bell curve, this is what people – I'm going to do this whole intro to logic and statistics.
It may change a few people's minds.
I'm not overly optimistic, but it's the I know a tall Chinese guy syndrome.
You know, well, Chinese men on average are shorter than, say, Swedish men.
I know a tall Chinese guy.
It's like, you are an idiot.
You do not know anything about facts.
Can I interrupt you for a second?
That's exactly what I'm talking about, this anecdotal evidence.
So you say, you know, Asian people tend to be better at mathematics.
And they go, well, I have a black mathematician.
And you go, congratulations.
But then you go, wait a minute.
Who on earth – because what they're accusing you of, by the way, is that you believe that every single person in this group is exactly this way.
And instead of going, no, I don't think that, you go, wait a minute.
Who the hell thinks everyone in a group is a certain way?
Who the hell believes there are no exceptions to any pattern?
You'd have to be a complete lunatic.
I mean, you'd have to say all tall people are good at basketball, and then you see a tall person who's bad at basketball and you have a heart attack?
No one thinks what you're accusing me of!
Nobody!
No, but it's a magic wand.
Everybody needs their magic wand of scariness to make bad ideas go away.
And the latest incarnation, of course, is racism, sexism, misogyny, and all this kind of stuff.
It's like, ooh, hate facts!
I must banish them with my magic spell of whatever word I can use to make this go away.
And of course, it's all straw man and crap like that.
And it comes out of bad schools and the over-feminization, particularly for males of the early life.
I worked in a daycare when I was a teenager.
It was just estrogen C, and the boys were drowning.
Of course, they didn't have men at home, fathers at home.
They'd maybe have a sort of series of low-rent rotating revolving door crappy boyfriends that would sort of cycle through.
Oh, this was in a pretty rough section of Toronto, I guess.
Where was the daycare in Verdun in Montreal?
It would have been funny if we overlapped there.
That's true.
So, there is this over-feminization, and I think that men in general tend to be a little bit more rigorous, a little bit more logical.
I had someone call up the other day into my show who was saying, well, when it comes to deporting illegal immigrants, it's going to tear families apart and so on.
Everybody who commits a crime who goes to jail, if they're a parent, leaves a sad child in their wake.
I mean, do we then say, well, okay, you strangled a hobo, but you have a child, so we're not sending you to jail because that would tear families apart.
And rather than putting the moral responsibility on the people who say, I don't know, broke the law, what they're doing is saying, well, if it makes a child sad, we can't do anything about it.
Now, who on earth puts a child's sadness above moral principles?
Hmm, more males or more females?
I wonder, especially females without kids.
Well, it shows how much they've dominated the narrative, too.
And the fact that they can't snap back from this and still haven't accepted it shows that...
I know Lena Dunham is low-hanging fruit and it's an easy target, but she really does personify a mentality right now, which is this spoiled, bloated child who gets everything she wants and can't take no for an answer.
And seeing her call Paul Ryan and then get mad at the answering machine because she didn't get enough time to leave her message...
You just go, well, this is ironically why Trump won.
Because we've tried giving the kids candy for dinner.
We've tried letting them stay up as late as they want.
And what happens is they can't get out of bed in the morning and they're sick because they didn't have a nutritious meal.
So we're having to face reality.
And I mean, I guess I'm just surprised that it's taking so long for it to sink in.
Because the logic didn't work.
Well, and this is the thing.
I mean, if you've suffered one of the most massive electoral defeats in not just American, but like Western civilization, I don't just mean that, of course, the popular vote was fairly close, the electoral vote wasn't, but relative to the expectations, you know, what the New York Times said, 97% chance he's going to win, you know, hours before he dominates the electoral college, when you've suffered a massive setback like that.
At what point do you say, let's maybe look in the mirror just a little bit and see what biases we had that led us to be so wildly off base of reality, out of touch, Maybe that flyover country should count for something after all, but they're not.
They're just doubling down.
Now Steve Bannon is a white nationalist and it's like, oh my god, you just lost because of this stuff and you're doubling down.
This is why you're going to lose again and harder next time.
Imagine you played soccer with someone and they lost and then they just kept screaming and you go, we're supposed to do the thing where you go shake hands now.
It's just proof that we have more experience with confrontation and conflict and We're sort of used to losing.
We're used to winning.
This is part of the game.
They've never done this before.
And now they're apoplectic because they're basically like spoiled children.
I mean, I remember I was on Hannity once.
There was some black woman there, and she was talking about the poor and how hungry they are in America.
And I go...
They're hungry.
Maybe it's because they're using food stamps as fat pills.
Our biggest problem in America is that our poor eat too much.
Look how fat they are.
And then she gets all pissed off and we're done.
And we're walking back to the green room in the hallway.
And I said to her, I go, you know what would have been funny if while you were saying that to me, I was going, you can't talk to me like that.
You don't know me.
And I thought she would laugh because I assumed we both knew that the soccer game was over and we're shaking hands.
And she was still fuming.
I said, look, you don't have the right to talk about this with your fancy suit.
I don't talk to white people.
And then we had to get into a fight in the green room where I said, look, who I am, my background doesn't have any...
Bearing on the facts.
We're discussing data here.
You can be a punk rocker.
You can be a baby.
If you understand the data, it doesn't matter who you are, you idiot.
Never bring feelings to a fact fight.
It just does not work.
It doesn't work any more than a knife to a gunfight.
And this is the remarkable thing, this sort of wish fulfillment fantasy.
The whole media, the entire year and a half leading up to the election, had nothing to do with facts.
It had to do with wish fulfillment.
This is how we want the world to be.
We want the world to hate Donald Trump.
We want the world to love Hillary Clinton.
We want the polls to be this way.
We don't care how we jig the D-plus sample size.
We don't care if we talk to more women or more young people or whatever it is, right?
We don't care if we call people at two o'clock in the afternoon and we wake them from a nap.
Hey, I guess if they'll be for Hillary, I'm guessing so.
It was just wish fulfillment.
This is the world we want to live in, and we invited everyone in, and everyone's like, whoa, that's like crazy town.
Thank you.
No, I'm not going there.
And now afterwards, they have that usual Blanche Dubois hysteria when the illusion is punctured rather than readjust to reality.
They're just raging against reality and thus confirming, man, I'm glad I wasn't on that team or voted for that team's leader.
Yeah.
Well, you saw that on 60 Minutes with Leslie Stahl, and she goes, everyone...
I thought you were going to lose everyone.
And I thought, you're screaming right now your definition of everyone, which was just proven to be a tiny satellite that's not connected to Earth.
So you just gave away, in the way you said everyone, you just gave away that you're out of touch.
And there was a writer from the National Post, too, who did an article after he went saying his inexplicable Victory.
And I'm going, inexplicable.
You just are proving why we elected Trump, because you can't explain things, because you're not connected to reality.
And you expect them to have this wake-up call, and I guess part of being deluded is you never do.
You know, there's a great book called The Advocate.
I forget his name.
It's like Jean-Michel...
Bascal or something, but he was a guy who pretended that he didn't drop out of medical school.
He kept going even though he didn't, and then he pretended he got a job at the UN. His lies went on for decades.
He ended up getting caught because people that gave him money said, I want it back, and it was like a pyramid scheme type thing.
So he ends up killing his whole family.
So you're reading the book, hearing the story, and you're going, ooh, now that he's arrested, I can't wait for him in jail to go, I'm a liar.
I was wrong.
But that doesn't happen with those kind of sociopaths.
They never have their judgment day.
So what he did was he switched it to Jesus and I've discovered Christ.
And if a sinner like me can be reformed, then that's wonderful.
And then all these Jesus freaks would come by the prison in Switzerland and, you know, hang out with them.
And I think, you know, as moral people, we tend to assume, we put our brains in other people's brains and we go, I made stupid mistakes like you.
You're going to have a big wake-up call and it's going to be like a cold shower.
But they just keep dancing around, pretending they're in a hot shower.
And you go, I give up.
And that's really what Trump's victory was.
It was America saying, we give up on you guys.
Buh-bye.
Yeah, I mean, I think, to me, the characterization that's closest, Gavin, is something like an addict in the terminal stages of addiction.
Like, an addict, of course, you sit there and you reason with them.
And you say, well, look, you keep taking this drug.
Here's where it's going to go.
Here's where it's going to lead.
Here's what's going to happen to you.
Your skin, your teeth, your eyeballs are going to be hanging on like some horrifying Escher painting or some Roger the Rabbit back of the head with a 2x4 picture.
And you say this is – and they're like, no, you're right, you're right, now I should quit, right?
And then next thing they go and hit the drug again.
Now at some point, you've got to give up with facts and evidence.
You've got to step back and let consequences take over.
Because these people in general, I would argue, are not going to learn – And that's why I don't understand why they want to get involved in our game.
You know, I don't know anything about football.
And I don't go up to Dallas Cowboys fans and say, it's deplorable that you would worship such a team.
You know, the real team this year is the Washington Redskins.
And I'm really disappointed.
And then If they quiz me about any of these teams, I have no idea what I'm doing.
I was arguing with this woman, this lesbian, at Sundance this year, and she wanted to talk about immigration.
We're a nation of immigrants, blah, blah, blah.
My new trick with that is to ask a super basic question, and then if they can't answer that, then I'm not continuing.
I said, how many illegals are there in America right now?
She said, I don't know.
That's not relevant.
I go, well, surely there's a big number and a small number.
It's not an issue if there's 1,000.
She goes, I believe there's like $70 billion.
No, no, not cells composing the bodies of the illegal aliens.
No, the actual illegal aliens.
Not hair follicles.
A fun game now with all this outrage.
Even my wife, she was pro-Hillary.
I go, who was Henry Kissinger?
What was the name of his position?
Who else had that position?
By the way, I'm not mad if you don't know that, but...
Why are you getting so passionately involved in something that you're clearly not interested in?
Because you don't know any of the other stuff.
It's a bizarre thing, and it's part of feminism, too, where these women go, I want to do your thing.
I want to be in your gang.
And you go, okay, well, come on in.
This is what we do all day.
And they go, ew, this is hard.
I don't like it.
And you go, well, bye.
Everyone's pretending to be something they're not.
It's like that famous clip of you on The Handity Show with that woman, where you were sort of pointing out, you know, one of the goals of feminism was to, I don't know, make women happier, and that plan has really not been working out.
Women are beginning progressively unhappier, progressively on more psychotropic meds.
I mean, just getting neurotic and miserable and childless, and it's just a mess.
And, you know, you're pointing out these facts, and then what happens is she gets...
I'm shocked and appalled.
It's like, okay, well, then that means you don't know how to play this game, right?
You're showing up to a tennis match, I don't know, with what?
With a cheesecloth.
And you don't know how to play the game.
So please step off the field and let people off the court and let people who know how to play tennis come up and throw the ball around because you thinking you've won by fainting is not a very good sportsperson-like move.
And that's the thing about us men is we're too lazy to want to bicker.
So if you can provide something, come on in.
Like, look at MMA. These women say, I want to fight like a man.
Give me my own category, obviously, because I can't fight men.
But us women want to fight.
And we go, all right, if you fit the weight class and you do all the rules, come on in the cage.
And when they sit there, these women fighting in the cage, men aren't going throwing beer.
They're watching it like every other fight going, oh, that was a good kick.
And you listen to the commentator and he's discussing it the exact same way.
He discusses the male fights.
So when you show up to the thing and you've done your homework, we're happy to have you.
I mean, the irony with this Nazi accusation is we are the most welcome and open-minded group in the world.
In fact, the problem with multiculturalism is you're encouraging other cultures to come in and replace us that are worse, that are less tolerant, that are less open-minded, that are less just.
Oh, I... I don't even know if I want to get started on this topic.
Okay, I'll get started on this topic.
That was a sort of fork in the road that I took pretty quickly.
But it has struck me, as maybe it has struck you too, Gavin, that the cultures that treat their women the best are not flourishing in this world.
And the cultures that treat their women the worst are growing and spreading and multiplying and doing fantastically from a sort of biological expansion standpoint.
And I don't know what to do with that fact exactly, but it seems to be pretty incontrovertible as it stands.
We're more evolved.
Sorry.
We survived the Siberian winters and the Western male...
And by the way, I started this group called the Proud Boys.
We are very big on culture.
We stay away from race.
We stay away from sexual preference.
We've got trannies and homosexuals and blacks and all the races mixed in.
We're about Western chauvinism.
But the West was built mostly by whites.
And they built it because they survived Siberian winters.
They developed a very tenacious lifestyle that they brought to North America and just flourished in the exact same way starlings did, the same way sparrows did.
They were confronted with an easier climate than what they had been in for thousands of years.
We didn't throw them off buildings, although they did in Braveheart, but we were not nice to...
It was illegal in Britain probably up until 1960, I think.
We tried all this intolerance.
It doesn't work.
So we slowly developed this sort of perfect glowing orb of a culture that all these other people want to be a part of.
And the first thing they want to do is sabotage it.
And the surprising thing is that it's really effective.
I mean, you start screaming like...
Invasion of the Body Snatchers at Brendan Eich for donating to gay marriage while Hillary and Barack Obama agreed with him.
And everyone goes, oh, I don't want any trouble.
Let's get him out of here.
And it's just frustrating that someone would do something so benign, but because some idiot is screaming loudly, we just go, oh, okay, I'm going to capitulate to the loudest person in the room.
Which is what happens when reason and evidence go out the window.
When reason and evidence go out the window, emotional bullying, manipulation, being upset, anger, rage, violence, all of these things, that's what rushes in to fill in the power vacuum when reason and evidence goes out the window.
Because it used to be the case that when someone showed up with the fields to a fax discussion, everybody would be like, sorry, you need to go some other place.
You need to go maybe to a 12-step program where, you know, the hug room is down the hall.
But this is where the adults are dealing with facts.
And that assertiveness kind of went out the window for reasons that are always somewhat hazy.
But the culture of just saying, no, no, no, no, no, this is facts.
You don't bring voodoo to the science conference and you don't bring feels to the facts talk.
But of course, because what would happen is...
Because of the way either men are biologically or how we're raised or I guess how we used to be raised when men used to help out with raising boys, we kind of got tough.
We kind of got like I was debating with friends when we were like in our single digits in age and the sportsman thing too.
You fight hard and then you're friends.
And this sort of reality that you get in there and you tussle and you work that way, if we maintain the reason and evidence thing, large groups of society would seem to be excluded.
And of course, since the whole social justice warrior whack-a-bigot game basically is find some numerical disparity in particular groups and then blame it all on white racism, that invites a kind of shitstorm into your life.
And so I think there was just this kind of, okay, okay, okay, you don't know how to play, but you can play.
Because if I don't let you play, I'm going to look like a bigot.
Yeah, their attitude was just stop screaming and I'll give you what you want and I can get on with my day.
But you know the irony of when they talk about all these hate crimes now post-Trump, and of course they don't include all the Trump supporters getting attacked, but when they had that guy Kumail Nunjaij or something, he's a Pakistani immigrant comedian.
He's on an HBO show, that techshow.com show.
Funny guy.
He's on Portlandia, too, a lot.
Anyway, he goes, yeah, I was out with my friends in this L.A. hipster bar, and these people came up to us and they said, we like your show, but you're really wrong on Trump.
And then my friend put his hand on his chest and said, I don't want to talk politics.
And they said, do you want to step outside, you cuck?
And he put that up on Twitter as saying, look, this is in Silver Lake in L.A., Lord knows what it's like in the rest of the country.
And I'm reading his description, which was just someone saying, do you want to step outside after one of the guys puts his hand on another guy?
And I'm thinking, this is called being in Ottawa in the 70s.
Like, that was our life.
You got a wedgie if you farted in class.
I mean, we used to beat the crap out of each other until we could name five chocolate bars or five cereals.
That was just...
So they get...
They have an experience that's sort of like a normal childhood.
And they go...
We're at war here.
Hate crimes everywhere.
I got stared at.
And then they talk about microaggressions.
The fact that you can say the word microaggression means your aggressions are very small these days.
Well, I mean, there's a lot in what you said, but I do think that crying never worked for me as a little boy.
I'm pretty sure it didn't work for you either.
I mean, if you cried, you got it worse.
And, you know, that doesn't mean you can't shed a tear at an old Bell Long Distance commercial where the grandfather is called, you know, like doesn't mean you don't have any emotions, but it means the crying game is not something that men can win at.
And if you cried, you got it worse.
And if you whined, you got it worse.
And people just wouldn't want to play with you.
Oh, let's not get that.
He's such a whiner.
He just complains and cheats and all that.
So there was a lot of strong social selection for just stepping up, being robust, walking it off.
But for a lot of other groups, we have given them the crying card, the upset card.
Nobody cares that, you know, it's not that much fun to be called a white racist misogynist patriarch all day long, but, you know, you suck it up and you deal with it and you go back into the arena with the facts.
But we've handed out this giant salt drenchy handkerchief of crying lets you win.
And when crying lets you win, you know what doesn't win?
Civilization as a whole.
Yeah, well, I think...
We took them, not took them for granted, but we took their allegations seriously.
It's like if you kept crying all the time.
I go, I don't know what the hell happened to Stefan.
I guess both his parents were murdered in front of his very eyes or something.
Stefan, are you okay?
Do you want to sit down?
And then after about a week of that, we go, I just checked in with his parents.
They're fine.
And now the Trump election was us going, yeah, we thought that you had a point.
We kept screaming and crying.
And now we're kind of annoyed because we just looked into it and your life is awesome.
So you're fired and we're not listening to you anymore.
And they're so mad.
And they've taken this narrative.
Did you see that Huffington Post article where she goes, what do we tell our children?
And it was teachers.
It was a note to teachers where the teachers are supposed to say, tell your students that you'll be standing by your Muslim students.
You'll be standing by your Latino students.
You'll be standing by your LGBT students.
At one point they go, we'll be standing by our disabled students, and if anyone tries to hurt them, they're going to have to go through me.
And you go, wait a minute.
So my Trump Gestapo is going to go into your classroom and what, just grab a handicapped guy out?
We put him in a garbage bag?
What do we do with him?
Do we take him to the concentration camps?
Grow up!
There is this level of fear that I can't process, Gavin.
Like I was reading about some meeting...
At the DNC where some young guy was railing out Donna Brazile for running the wrong candidate, running a bad campaign or colluding with the media, whatever, all the stuff that she's accused of.
And this young guy was screaming at her because Donald Trump, I think, is appointing a global warming skeptic, perhaps, of the head of the EPA or whatever, right?
Skeptic in science!
Oh, no!
That is science, you understand?
The whole science is founded on skepticism of authority.
But anyway...
This young guy was screaming at her and was saying, well, you get to die of old age.
I'm going to die of global warming.
You've just taken 40 years off my lifespan.
And he's like purple, like Klingon veins out the forehead, head spinning around poltergeist style.
And he literally believes that this election is going to cut 40 years off his lifespan because the planet's going to turn into Venus and not the loving kind, but, you know, sulfuric acid in the face giving you the appearance of whoopee.
I don't know, whoever's got lots of plastic surgery.
So this reality that they really feel that doom and disaster in the end of the world is nigh, how do you reason with that?
Well, it's funny you bring up science, too, because the way science works is you do an experiment, you put it in a Petri dish, and it doesn't happen the way you thought it would, and you go, huh.
And I'm sure it's very annoying.
I'm not a scientist, but I imagine if you invest a lot of time into that theory, that hypothesis, it must be frustrating to have to just take the Petri dish and throw it in the toilet and go, that didn't work.
But what they do is they get the results and they go, what is going on?
And they keep going with the hypothesis through the data.
And you go, this is the opposite of science.
I remember reading, Joe Sacco did a comic, and it was an anti-Israeli, of course, joke, but he talks about how The FBI and the KGB and the Israeli Secret Service, whatever they're called, has to go, they're challenging each other.
So one goes to get a rabbit and he brings it back in one minute.
Then the FBI guy has to go catch a dog and he brings it back in five minutes.
And then the Israeli guy, he's got to go find a horse and they find him three hours later in the forest and he's grabbing a donkey that he's found.
And he's punching it in the face, and he's saying, admit you're the horse!
Admit you're the horse!
And we keep seeing that with the left.
They go, all right, America's racist, like before the Obama thing.
They go, all of America's racist is basically a giant Klan rally.
Then Obama's elected, and they go, what the hell?
For some reason, racists elected Obama.
At a Klan rally of a country, elected a black president.
And you go, has it occurred to you that your Klan theory is wrong?
No.
The Klan just elected a black man.
Oh, okay.
Trump's a Nazi.
He's going to start killing everyone.
Oh, he's not doing that and his first appointees are like a gay and a woman and a black guy.
And they go, that's weird.
Nazis don't usually like those kind of people.
He's just reading it really well.
No, the beautiful thing about the left is there's absolutely no null hypothesis.
And once you understand that, it's a lot easier to interact with them.
There's no way you can ever talk yourself out of these negative labels because there's no null hypothesis.
You know, the fact that Trump is, you know, holding up an LGBT flag, the fact that he's usually appointing minorities and women, the fact that, was it Kellyanne Conway, the head of his, you know, she's the first woman to head a successful presidential campaign, doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter because the label is the reality.
The label.
There's no way I can look at a tree and you can convince me that it's a waterfall.
It can't happen because I'm looking at it and it's a tree.
These labels are the tree.
Reality is just us saying it's a waterfall and there's no null hypothesis and this is why you can't reason people out of beliefs they were never reasoned into.
It's bigotry and prejudice and that's why the left sees Bigotry and prejudice everywhere they look because reality is a mirror to them.
They are the bigoted and prejudiced ones who have no null hypothesis for their beliefs.
So the world they see is who they are.
Well, it's also why they're so scared of patterns because if we notice a pattern and then we discover it's genetic, we go, hmm, that's funny.
Scottish people get grumpy when they've had whiskey.
And we don't do anything about it.
We don't ban whiskey from Scots.
We just go, that's a thing.
But in the far left, they know that they're basically Stalinists, and they know that if they discover a pattern, they try to purge those people.
So they're petrified of that kind of data because they know when they're in control, it means mass deaths.
What they don't understand with us, and this is what I even try to tell my wife about Trump and Hillary, I go, there's two groups in politics, right?
There's people who want to be left alone, and there's people who won't leave them the hell alone.
There's the right and the left.
They both have their beliefs.
I know how I think the world should be.
The left knows how they think the world should be.
They want to enforce it.
See, that's the difference.
I just scratch my head and go, why are you doing that?
And it's sort of like the free market.
You don't buy Colgate toothpaste and Colgate goes, ugh!
You don't buy Obamacare.
Well, you're looking at a fine or jail time if you don't pay it.
I'm just enjoying...
scotch from Scottish men.
That to me, what I see in my mind's eye is a giant combine harvester and a bunch of very delicate pale storks.
So that is an enjoyable thing for me.
Yeah, well, this unreality, we've lived so long in this unreality, and the unreality has been growing, where the narrative is the reality, you know, the matrix of language that the left weaves around the budding brains of the young in order to shield them from basic cause and effect.
And, you know, it always feels like, oh, you know, those old things, there's two things that sort of came to mind.
One is the story that almost every tribe has, that in the tribe's greatest and darkest hour of peril and disaster and doom and seeming decay, That an ancient warrior will arise from his tomb and come back and save the tribe.
And, you know, that seems to be sort of to some degree what happened with Trump.
And these kinds of myths, these kinds of stories, it's always darkest before the dawn.
I've had so long a losing streak as far as trying to bring reason and evidence to the world and have people think better and jolt them out of their prejudices and so on.
It almost felt like, you know, you draw back the bow so far and it sort of felt like, okay, well now the bow rope is just going to break.
It's just going to break and it's all over.
But it turns out, like it was just gathering itself for that bounce back.
Ah, man, that's a good thing.
I wouldn't have put a lot of money on it a couple of years ago, but starting around 18 months, yeah, I think the pendulum really began to swing.
It really does feel like Braveheart.
And people say, oh, there's these social justice warriors.
They're just college kids.
It doesn't affect people's day-to-day.
When the top, when the president is sitting there saying, I think the Cleveland Indians should think about changing the name.
You go, wow, you're a social justice warrior.
And that goes down.
So we have them pushing up all this crap and Obama pushing it down.
In the States, we had military ROTC, these rookies, these guys that were going to send off to war to die, and they had to walk a mile in her shoes, meaning they had to wear red high-heeled shoes and walk for a mile so they can see how hard it is to be a woman.
These are guys we are training to go die for us.
Now that the top brass is never going to say the Cleveland Indians should change the name, he's never going to support ROTC dudes wearing red high heels, now it's like the snake has had his head cut off and they're all going to die.
We've already seen this.
The New York Times issued a huge apology, said they're going to be better.
Michael Rechtenwald, the professor who was fired for making fun of safe spaces, he just got his job back with an $80,000 raise and NYU saying, we're sorry we had it wrong.
We care about free speech and this is never going to happen again.
So we've got a couple more minutes.
Let's dip into how it's been going for you in the, I hate to say alternative media, just to me, honest media, the unattached, unbought media.
How's it been for you over the last, I guess, 18 months or so?
What's happened to your audience?
What's happened to your scope and your reach?
And what's happened to the reaction to you?
Because I found it's really been changing underfoot.
We've kind of like the planet has moved us from darkness into light and from calumny to heroism.
There's been this enormous shift for me.
Audience growth is enormous.
Crazy numbers every month, like 10, 12 million views and downloads a month and stuff.
And this all happened very rapidly.
in terms of cultural change, What's it been like for you, Gavin, in this pivotal time in the West?
Exactly the same.
I mean, if you wore a MAGA hat a month ago, you were a mentally ill Nazi, as far as the general perception here in New York City.
Now, when you wear it, you're just everyone's boss.
Like, all right, people, let's cross the street.
Come on.
It says walk.
We got to move.
Like, you just walk around with authority.
And I've noticed that The guys who always had our backs but were sort of on the fence.
Now, I mean, I did three days of interviews nonstop.
But what I'm finding with the left is it's split.
And there are the Lena Dunham brains that are still in denial and saying it's inexplicable.
And everyone thought that you were going to lose.
It'll be a while before, you know, Alex finds his keys and can come with us to the bar.
But then there's this other group, especially in Britain, I'm seeing with Channel 4 and The Guardian, where they're knocking down my door for interviews saying, turns out we were wrong.
I want a job in the future.
Like, that's why NYU capitulated.
That's why The New York Times wrote that letter, because they want subscriptions back.
And these universities want donations from the alma mater.
So these journalists are realizing we had it totally wrong.
We want to start from scratch again.
Tell us what's going on.
Who are you?
Like, the alt-right, you couldn't get more esoteric than the alt-right.
They're on CNN.
I heard Vice is trying to do a big thing on them.
Paul Joseph Watson's getting hounded by all these people who want to find out what the hell the alt-right is.
Twitter's banning Richard Spencer because he's too powerful.
And that is as far right esoteric as we get.
So even the outskirts of what we've been saying, which I would argue is just basic facts, even these hate fact people like you and I, the outskirts of us are getting bombarded with interviews.
So as far as you and I go, I mean, we're just getting drowned in people who realized they had it wrong.
I do not want to circle back at all.
I think the only time I'm going back is to back over the body.
That's the only thing that I want to do.
No, because for me, there's no point handing me ammo after the war is over.
That's not the time I need it.
It's the time of desperate times, desperate measures, and who stood by you, who was coming in the door when you were in trouble, and who was heading out the door.
For me, the mainstream media, they don't buy you anything.
They don't get you anything.
Like I have people come on my show and they sell thousands of books.
They go on the mainstream media and nothing happens, doesn't it?
Twitter numbers don't budge.
Nothing happens.
They're very much a separate universe.
And them trying to ride on the coattails now of the people who were right.
I just find it pretty despicable.
It's like, oh, sorry, I smoked myself to death.
I'm just going to reach down to your chest and evacuate a lung so I can pat it in my own chest.
We'll just call that even.
It's like, nope, you smoked.
You were wrong.
And I don't see any reason why we need the mainstream media at all.
I can see why they need us because we have credibility and they don't.
I have absolutely no idea why would we give them the time of day or a drop of water if they were dying of thirst.
Yeah, you're right.
And books are a great metric.
I mean, if you're on Fox News, CNN, you might see a couple thousand go up, maybe, and budge your Amazon sale list.
But you, Alex Jones, Joe Rogan, all these guys who did it themselves, everything is in the millions with them.
And it got to the point where they were so finicky, this mainstream media, and so scared of offending anyone that they made themselves obsolete.
And what happens when they cut to a commercial?
You see a chair that goes upstairs.
Great.
Nice media.
Sorry, it took me a moment.
I'm there.
I'm there.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, they're all dying off.
The average age of Fox is like, the viewers is like over 60, I think, or something like that.
I mean, they don't come at normal volume.
Like, it has to be super loud.
It's the only way it works.
And by the way, we'll be sending someone over to chase those kids and their ball off your lawn just about now.
So I think it's a very, very exciting time.
You know, as I mentioned, I did a takedown at the New York Times apology piece, and I sort of pointed out that, what is it, first law of thermodynamics, energy can only be transferred, it can't be destroyed.
Yeah, so they had a whole bunch of energy telling lies to people who could barely hear what they were saying and barely read what they were writing.
Now the energy is transferring.
Then energy will always in the long run transfer to those who are right.
People will take a certain amount of propaganda or feel goodness for a little while, but when emergency comes, you've got to turn to reality.
I think we all, most of us have that basic lizard brain of like, okay, I can pretend the fire isn't hot, but at some point, I'm going to have to get moving because it's getting really hot here.
Or like there's an old Farsight cartoon of like two cavemen looking at each other, this big giant wall of ice like up against their nose, and one of them turns to the other and says, Is that wall of ice a little closer today?
When reality asserts itself in this fundamental way, I think most people will flock to those who've been telling the truth all along, and I don't think there's any way now because after the fact, it just looks opportunistic.
The people who tell the truth when they hurt for telling the truth, those are the people you're going to believe.
The people who are going to profit from pretending to trail after the truth blazers, forget it.
They'll just trail after the next dollar if it leads off a cliff.
Exactly, yeah.
And that's the beauty of the information age, too.
We would say something crazy, like the wage gap is a myth, and women actually make as much as men, and people would go, that's counterintuitive, but all I have to do is pull out my phone and push a few buttons, and there's the data.
Oops, turns out they make more money than men when they're single, and they choose to make less.
Oh, shit.
That's a wake-up call.
Now, remember, women shouldn't have choices that have consequences.
That's the essence of feminism.
Well, I know your parents are in town.
You've got to go spend quality family time.
Just wanted to remind people, first of all, thanks very much for the chat.
Most enjoyable.
Compoundmedia.com.
Compoundinterest.
Compoundmedia.com.
TheRebel.media.
And follow Gavin's great Twitter feed at twitter.com slash Gavin Underbar McInnes.
M-C-I-N-N-E-S. Thanks so much for your time.
Thanks for your great work.
I'm sure we'll chat again soon and have yourself a fantastic day.
