All Episodes
Previous Next
Jan. 21, 2011 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
56:29
1835 Inner Mom Mecosystem Role-Play Conversation
| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
Alright, sorry, go ahead.
Yes, if you wanted to just talk about the issue, that would be great.
Okay, so I'll just read my post?
Sure. Alright, okay.
So I was listening to another roleplay that a listener had with you, playing his mom, and the following happened to me.
Pretty much at the beginning of the roleplay, my inner mom started to take over in me, precisely when his mother said, Are you being sarcastic?
I started to get almost giddy with excitement as if I was going to watch an epic fight where Steph would lose.
Further in, I talked about it more with my boyfriend, especially when she, the mother, did not get the upper false self as I'd expected.
I genuinely thought that it would be my boyfriend's experience as well to be disappointed that it was not epic.
He felt quite different though, so that we immediately figured that it was my inner mom talking who wanted to beat Steph and felt pretty confident to be able to do that.
Right. The roleplay you mean?
Yes. Right, right.
I couldn't concentrate on it.
I tuned in again when they talked about the results of the roleplay and had to stop the player every other sentence because I just could not believe that Steph would say time and again what a challenge this mom was.
My mother is highly competitive and she was practically screaming in my ear or my head or whatever that she would do so much better than this loser mother who could not defeat herself properly, let alone attack Steph herself.
Yeah, so that's pretty much it.
And... I'm not sure.
So my mom's not here yet.
So it's not like I want to have a talk with her.
I defute in August and I did not write.
I just wrote, I don't want to talk to you for the time being.
That was it. And I don't plan on talking to her again.
So that's not what I would want the roleplay to be about.
I'm not sure what I would like the roleplay to be about.
it just yeah it was just yeah I had the I don't have memories of my mother I have memories of my mother being this false self monster in discussions with me, but I don't have memories of discussions.
I don't have any memories at all.
Not about any issues that I ever talked with her about.
So I was hoping that This roleplay might trigger some memories, maybe.
What do you think? Is that realistic?
Yeah, I think certainly anything's possible.
Can you just remind me what it was in the roleplay that caused your mom to really come up in your head?
The sentence, are you being sarcastic, was the first one where this other mom was being manipulating and really false self.
And I was excited that I recognized my mother in that.
She's so good.
She can play every part, every false self part that I know.
She can be angry and cry and hurt and scornful and just everything.
Right. And was it your perception that you said your last interest when the call wasn't as confrontational as you had sort of thought or expected it would be?
Yes. Our family is very confrontational.
So we have a lot of discussions.
My mother is an intellectual snob.
So she...
I don't know.
We... It's supposed to be logical, the discussions, and rational, but they aren't, of course, because they're all false self.
I've thought about it a bit further, what kind of discussions I've had with her, and I think it was always about...
She's very narcissistic, very vain.
She'll praise herself constantly, For something or other.
And at some point in my childhood, I could not take that any longer.
So I said something about it, and then we would have these discussions.
And I think what really was very traumatizing for me, so that I recall these discussions, is not only my mother being very Very false self and very good at it, but also my brother taking sides with her.
Right, right. Now, was there a sort of specific disagreement that you had with your mom that was triggered by that, that you would like to take a shot at?
No, no, not exactly.
No, because I can't remember anything.
Yeah, I can't remember anything at all.
What do you mean? Well, the last conversation that I recall was with my mother in February.
That was the last time I talked to her.
We were just talking about, I don't know, a religion, I think, and science, and she was being relativistic.
She's an atheist, or she was, I don't know.
Maybe she's an agnostic now.
She had much firmer beliefs when I was younger.
So that's the last thing I recall discussing with her.
Did she have any particular sort of labels that she used on you in terms of adjectives?
Selfish was one that triggered, I think, the response for you.
Selfish... I don't know if she called me selfish.
She definitely... She called my father selfish.
Every Sunday they would have this argument where she would just let out her anger on him and he would just sit silently.
This would go for hours.
I remember sitting in my room and listening to this every Sunday and she would call him selfish and stupid and Dissociated and just everything.
Alright, well let's try. In the interest of time, I just want to make sure we get to the role play.
So let's, you try being your mom without being you.
Alright. So mom, I wanted to talk to you about some stuff that I really didn't like in my childhood, which is the way in which you just really let loose a dad and call him all of these terrible names.
That was really upsetting to me.
It was really scary to me.
And I thought it was, it sort of felt like kind of ugly and unpleasant behavior on your part.
That was my experience of it.
Can you tell me a little bit about why you did that and what the purpose was and whether you achieved what you wanted?
Well, I definitely achieved what I wanted.
Your father is now a much more cultivated man than he was before.
So I achieved what I wanted.
It's still frustrating though, and yeah, I mean, maybe it was upsetting, but it certainly was more upsetting to me.
Sorry, when you say maybe it was upsetting, what do you mean?
To who? Well, you said it was upsetting to you, so that's what I meant.
Well, the first thing I would say is that the word maybe is inappropriate there, because I didn't say that maybe it was upsetting to me.
I said it was upsetting to me.
I mean, I'm not trying to catch you, I just want to, like, let's be precise, right?
Okay, sure, sure. So it was upsetting to you, but it definitely was more upsetting to me.
It was a really hard time for me then, and...
I'm sorry, let me just interrupt you again.
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but how do you know that it was more upsetting to you?
Well, you were not present in the discussion, were you?
I could hear it. And I was a child.
Yeah, you did not have to take up with your father.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what that means.
Well, you did not have to take up with his being such a total loser and dissociated and cold and selfish and everything.
He did that to me.
Sorry, you're saying that we're not talking about dad.
I just want to get back. So you said that it was harder for you than it was for me.
And I'm just curious about how you know that.
Well, because... I mean, sorry, until a few moments ago, you didn't seem to know that it was troublesome to me at all.
So how do you now immediately know that it was harder for you than it was for me?
Well, I guess that's just it, because you never said anything.
So I assumed it was not that bad.
I mean, I can understand that this was not a pleasant time for you, so...
Well, tell me a little bit about what...
Did you know at the time that it was unpleasant for me?
Well, you didn't say anything, so no, I don't think so.
So you didn't know that you yelling at dad and calling him a loser and selfish and all of that, you had no idea that that might be a negative experience for me?
I remember that you joined me in that, so no, I don't think so.
Do you remember that?
That you joined me in ridiculing him and mocking him?
Do you remember that?
Well, let's not talk about my behavior because I was a kid, right?
So we're sort of talking about you as an adult, like your behavior.
I'm just trying to understand this, right?
So what you're saying is that for the years that you yelled at and railed against and kind of verbally abused dad, And I was in the house and I was aware and knew that this was going on and could hear it, that you had no idea that it might be a negative experience for me.
Well, I think it would have been an even more unpleasant experience to not have discussed...
No, no, no, we're not talking about theoreticals.
I'm just trying to...
And I apologize for interrupting, but I just really want to understand this...
Are you saying to me that you had no idea that it might be a negative?
Not the alternatives or what I did or what could have been, but what was actually happening?
No, I don't think I thought you...
Did you think it was good that I enjoyed it?
I don't know. I mean, you stayed up in your room, so I don't know if you...
You're obviously noted.
Noticed it. You just said so, but I didn't know that at the time.
Do you think that any kid would enjoy that kind of parental conflict or that kind of verbal abuse being in the house?
So you are aware that it was a negative experience, right?
Or did it just never occur to you that I might have an experience of it?
No, if I thought that you noticed, yes, I think it would have been negative to you.
Well, of course I noticed. I was hiding.
I mean, I was away.
I was never there, right?
I mean, this is the part of the paradox that I'm trying to sort of figure out, Mom, which is that you say that Dad is selfish, right?
Thank you.
Thank you.
Can you see, I'm not saying that you agree, but can you see how your behavior, where you're acting out your own aggression against Dad, regardless of how it affects me, and not even thinking about how it might affect me, might be interpreted as selfish as well?
Well, sure, but you could have said something, couldn't you?
Well, I clearly felt that I couldn't have said something.
And in fact, I'm not having much luck saying anything now because all you're doing is pretending that there wasn't a problem and minimizing and talking about your feelings and saying it was better for me.
So the response that I'm getting from you now, mom, does not lead me to believe that I would have had a better response when I was 12.
I'm not trying to minimize it.
It was a really shitty time.
Sorry to interrupt you.
You are trying to minimize it and I can tell you what you have said that says that.
Would you like me to repeat some of the things back that you've said?
Well, the first thing you said was that it didn't bother me, or you said that perhaps it bothered me, which I had already said it did bother me, so you already tried to minimize it that way.
Then you tried to minimize it by saying it was worse for you than it was for me.
Then you tried to minimize it.
By saying that it may have been difficult for me, rather than it was difficult for me, but that the alternative would have been worse.
And that was another way to minimize it.
And then you tried to minimize it by saying, well, you didn't bring anything up at the time, so it can't have been that bad.
And these are just the ones I can remember.
I'm sure there are more. But that is a textbook definition of trying to minimize somebody else's upset or experience or feelings.
Can you understand that? Sure, but how do you know it was not worse for me than it was for you?
No, we're not getting back into that.
You said that you didn't minimize, and I have provided to you half a dozen examples of you minimizing.
Well, I'm just trying...
So do you accept that you did minimize in the conversation that we've had just now, that you are minimizing what it is that I am trying to talk about?
No, no. I'm just remembering the time and what I thought back then.
Okay. Look, we can go back and start this again.
So you said that you weren't minimizing.
I gave you a half a dozen examples of clear minimizing.
And so I need you to accept if you want to be honest.
And I think honesty is a value for you.
Integrity and culture and taking responsibility for your actions is a value to you.
At least that's what you always told me.
So I need you to accept that you were minimizing so that we can at least have this basic discussion in an honest way.
Well, I can't say it if I don't think that I was.
But would you like me to go over the example?
We could go over them one by one in more detail.
Okay, so first of all, I said that it did bother me and you said it might have bothered you.
And I said, no, no, I did, right?
I didn't think I was minimizing.
I was just repeating it a bit falsely.
Yeah, okay, but falsely in a way that ends up with it minimizing.
The second thing that you said was that it was worse for you than it was for me.
Can you see that that might be interpreted?
It might be, but not necessarily.
No, no, you didn't say it might be, Tom.
You said it was. So stop fogging.
Yeah, but what if it really was worse for me?
No, no. You didn't say, this is not a hypothetical.
You didn't say, well, what if it really is or it might have been?
You said it was worse for you than it was for me.
As a statement, not as a possibility.
So you can't start talking about it as a possibility now because you said it as a factual conclusion.
Oh, this is so you just hacking at the words that I said.
I mean, okay, so obviously I forgot there may be, but I mean, this is what I meant, right?
So we don't have to fight over one little word here.
Well, you see, you're minimizing again.
Can you see that? I have a genuine problem with the way that you're minimizing my emotions, and you're now scorning and minimizing them again.
Can you sort of understand that this is a habit that you might possibly have?
No, what did I do now?
What was it that I did now?
How did I minimize your...
You said that I'm just harping on one particular word, that I'm just hung up on one particular word.
Yeah, sure, weren't you?
But it's not one particular word.
It's a pattern of behavior that I'm pointing out.
Oh, okay, I see.
And what was the next one?
You also said that it would have been worse for me if you had not done what you did.
Sure. Why is that not true?
Well, if you don't know how bad it is for me, how on earth can you know how it could be better or worse?
And how can you state that as a categorical fact?
And the other thing, too, is that you said that you didn't even know it was bad for me, and now you're saying, well, it would have been worse for me if you hadn't.
In other words, you either didn't know that it was bad for me, or you did.
Sure, but taking in account that it was worse for you, it would have been worse if we had lost the house and not had any money and had a divorce and so on, wouldn't it?
So I can with some expertise say, yes, it would have been worse.
Even not knowing that it was bad for you at the time.
So are you saying that your verbal abuse of dad, that the only alternative to your verbal abuse...
Of course. If you're calling someone a loser and a slob...
I didn't say that he was a loser.
I just pointed out his inefficiencies.
Actually, you called him a loser just in this conversation.
Well, true, but I didn't say it back then.
Well, and sorry, just to break the roleplay, I have no idea what your mom did or didn't say, so I don't know what you would say at this point.
I think I would say she did call him a loser.
Okay, so then, yeah, I have very clear memories of you calling him a loser.
Well, I don't.
And, well, okay, maybe, but, I mean, he is, isn't he?
Well, I am not...
First of all, I don't think that's a useful term.
You thought so, too, a lot of times.
No, the reason that we're talking about your minimizing, Mom, is very simple.
Because you said, why didn't you bring it up at the time?
And I pointed out that I'm trying to bring it up now, and I'm not having any luck at all trying to get some straight answers from you.
And so, of course, I couldn't bring it up at the time.
Yeah, that's because you...
Because of your response. Because of how you respond to this.
But that's not only my fault.
When you just, you know...
I'm hacking at words like maybe and so on.
You see, you're minimizing again.
You're saying that I'm hacking at words.
I don't even know what that means. I'm bringing up legitimate issues and problems that I have.
And I'm being honest about what was an experience for me.
And my experience of you is that you're just minimizing and deflecting and fogging and not being honest with me.
I'm not being honest with you.
Well, I think I am.
How am I not being honest with you?
I point out that you're minimizing and you deny.
And then you start minimizing again.
I point out that you're minimizing and you deny it.
And then you minimize again. I point out that you're minimizing and I deny it.
I say you called him a loser and you say that you didn't.
And then you said, well, maybe. Well, you said, okay, well, I did, but he is.
And then you say, well, no, it's your fault as well.
And you're just not taking responsibility for the things that you did when I was a kid.
These are not excuses that I was able to make when I was a kid.
When I did something wrong, I had to take responsibility for it.
Oh, you made a lot of excuses.
Right, and were they accepted?
And you were discussing like now, like hours.
Did you accept my excuses when I was a kid?
Did you say, okay, well you have an excuse, so that's okay.
Well, if it was a good reason, so then yes.
Right, okay, but these excuses are not good reasons, because you are minimizing what I experienced.
Well, this is just a theory, right?
You have not proved that. Yet.
I have given you at least half a dozen of examples, and I've even pointed it out in the moment when you say that I'm just hacking at words.
Well, but I deflected some of them, so...
Okay, let's say that you deflected some of them.
Let's say that some of them...
Are you saying that some of them are valid?
That there are times at which you're minimizing?
Okay, so...
Maybe I do this now and again?
I mean... I guess I don't think about my words like that you will hack at them for hours?
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean.
I don't think we've been talking for hours.
What time do you have? I got that we've been talking about 20 minutes.
We're talking about the same thing over and over again and bringing it up again and again.
Do you think it's fair to say that when I'm trying to establish my point of view and when you say that something didn't occur and I provide you evidence, do you think that it's fair and reasonable to then say I've been hacking at your words for hours when we've only been talking about it for 15 minutes?
Do you think that's good communication?
Do you think that's helpful?
Well, I didn't think it was good communication this 15 minutes, no.
I thought you wanted to know something about your childhood.
Let me get back to what you just pointed out.
Do you think that it's helpful to say that I've been hacking at your words for hours when I've been trying to establish some experience that I've been having for about 15 minutes?
Is that a fair and reasonable characterization of my attempts in this conversation?
I'm not saying my attempts have been perfect, maybe they haven't been, but do you think it's fair to say that I've been hacking at your words for hours?
Just do it again, because that's again hacking my words.
Okay, so that was an exaggeration, but you knew what I meant, didn't you?
I don't know what you mean.
I honestly have no idea what you mean when you say that I'm hacking at your words.
Like you turn one word that I say and make a whole discussion out of it.
Actually, I've given you probably about eight or ten examples, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say I've given you only one word.
No, I mean I say something and then you focus on one word and try to hang me for it.
Okay, let me try it again.
I've given you 8 or 10 sentence examples, so how is it that you get that I'm only focusing on one word?
I think so.
This is so annoying. We discussed this, didn't we?
So you set an example and I answered it and I said, okay, so this was one word that I missed or that I said wrongly and you just, you know, I mean, I can't say anything.
All right, let's circle back a bit because I think you may have forgotten what it is that you actually said, Mom.
What you said was that you might have a habit of minimizing.
And now what you're saying is that maybe you said one word wrong?
So I'm not sure what it is, like which is it?
Because if you have a habit of minimizing, I think it's a productive and useful thing for us to talk about.
I mean, I think it is, right?
Because it's not something that you want to do, I'm sure.
I don't think you want to minimize other people's experiences of you, because that means that I then can't have feelings in the relationship, because if there are feelings that are negative to you, then you minimize, and that's obviously difficult for me.
It's difficult for you, and we can see this from the complication of this.
So if you do have a habit, and look, I have my habits too, but we're just talking about this particular one.
If you have a habit of minimizing, I think it would be a good thing for us to talk about.
But if you are in fact minimizing your confession of potential minimizing by saying that all I've done is twist a particular word that you've said, then we haven't made any progress at all.
Like if you say, yes, this might be a problem for me, and then I continue on, and you say, well, no, it's not a problem, you're just twisting my words, then I think it was a very honest and courageous confession to say that you may have an issue with minimizing my feelings.
But if that's withdrawn, then...
There's no point continuing the conversation because it means that we haven't established anything, and the things that we have established just have vanished the next time that you refer to them.
Well, I didn't want this conversation.
You asked me. Oh, so if I ask you, then you're not obligated to be honest?
And I really am losing interest.
Sorry, what does it matter whether I asked for this conversation or not?
What does that have to do with anything? Well, I said yes to, you know, because you wanted it, but not because I wanted to talk about it.
So what? So, well, don't I have a say in how this discussion goes then?
And if I like it or not?
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about, Mom.
I'm genuinely completely baffled.
Well, I really don't like this, that you are hung up on one word.
And you do this all the time, and your brothers do it.
It's so annoying. You can't have a conversation like that, you know?
Okay, to mom. Mom, just take a deep breath, because you're really going in a strange place for me.
Do you remember saying that you may have an issue with minimizing?
I said that? Do you remember saying that?
No. You don't remember saying that you may have...
When I gave you, like, eight or ten examples of minimizing and pointed it out in the moment, you don't remember at all saying that you may have a problem with minimizing.
No? When did I say that? No.
No. Okay. Okay, well then, I'm afraid that...
You're right. This conversation has no further point.
Okay. Good.
And I'd like to thank you for helping me to realize why I didn't bring any of this stuff up when I was 12 or 10 or 8.
Yeah, sure. And it's been hugely illuminating, and I really do appreciate it.
No, listen, you've been very, very helpful to me.
I mean, I know that sounds sarcastic, but it is a great relief for me.
Because, look, I sit there and say, well, geez, why didn't I say something when I was a kid?
And this stuff was so difficult for me, and it was so unpleasant.
With you hounding Dad in that kind of way, and like every week, and raising your voice, and calling him all these names.
Oh, man, I've said to myself so many times, why didn't I speak up?
Why didn't I say something? And it's not easy.
I mean, I'm upset.
I'm frustrated. I'm sure you are as well.
But what it has given me is a great deal of illumination, I guess you could say, into what occurred for me as a kid and the reasons why I didn't attempt to bring this kind of stuff up in the past.
Because look, I have all of the mental agility and independence of an adult now.
And I didn't have any of those things, you know, the verbal skills, the logical skills, the independence, all of that sort of stuff.
I didn't have that when I was a kid, and I haven't had any luck with, you know, I'm sure I could have done things better in some way or another, but...
I've certainly tried to give it my best shot, and I certainly haven't tried to do anything destructive.
In fact, I've really tried to be as positive and helpful as possible while standing by what it is that I've been experiencing and what it is that you've said.
So, I feel comfortable.
Just one second, then I'll listen. So, I feel comfortable the way I've conducted myself in the conversation, and it has given me a great deal of relief to realize, frankly, just how defensive you are about this stuff, and how little you are able to hear any negative experiences that I had with you in the past.
And that does give me some peace about what happened in the past, and it does give me some real...
I guess empathy for myself and what I sort of faced if I had tried to bring this stuff up when I was a kid.
Yeah, I'm all done. Thank you. Are you finished?
Okay. That's just what your father does too, these monologues.
So, yeah, good for you if you've got something out of the conversation.
I sure didn't. No, I don't think you did.
I think that's a shame. I think there was an opportunity for, but I don't think you did, and I think that's a shame.
And I don't think that I was destructive.
I think that you were destructive.
Sure, I get that. Yes.
So, okay. All right.
Well, I really appreciate that, Mom, and bye-bye.
Bye. And how was that for you?
Oh, man. Oh, that was bad.
I'm sorry? Oh, that was bad.
I mean, not the roleplay, but the...
I thought the roleplay, fuck, you're good.
No, no, no. She's a monster.
Man, she is, isn't she?
She's a monster. Thanks.
I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
My God. My God.
I mean, she's a...
I used to refer to my mom, my brother and I used to refer to my mom as a street fighter, like a dirty fighter.
And what that means is that she would stop at nothing to win.
There would be no point at which she'd say, okay, you got me.
Like there would always be some other defense, some other avoidance, some other manipulation, some other obfuscation that could occur.
And you can't have a conversation with people like that.
Like you just, you can't.
Because there's no reality.
Right? So, you roleplaying her, you did say, I may have a problem, once she was cornered, right?
But what happens is, that is simply a strategy in the moment, followed by another distraction, followed by another avoidance, followed by a counterattack, and when a few minutes later I referred to that, she pretended that she'd never said it.
You cannot have a conversation with that.
Yes, yes, I know, I know.
And I... But I know I had, and it was so...
I was so frustrating...
Oh, it is.
It is until you get that it's impossible, right?
Things are only frustrating when we think that they're possible, right?
Yes. And what you said about...
Because I always thought it was just about being rational and logic.
Because my mother, she studied...
So she's all about logic and so on, and being rational.
Sure. Sure. I always thought it was just about that, you know, making the perfect point and I just didn't make the perfect point for my defenses or my attacks or my arguments were defect or something.
Oh yeah, no, listen, if somebody is willing to just make up reality to that point, to simply say that up is down and black is white and not notice the difference, that is not saying Yes, that's exactly what she does.
She just makes up her own reality.
Right. Yeah, that is not rational.
Not just in discussions, but no, no.
My God, she remembers things falsely that I know that I said.
Sure. Well, I mean, this is the great thing about having a recording is you can actually listen back to it.
And she did say yes. And then she denied it, not a few minutes later.
Yes, yes. And honestly, I didn't remember it as my mom.
Right, of course. Absolutely.
Because if you remember it, then you have to actually start talking about the issues rather than...
And what I didn't get to, which I would have if the conversation had continued, is how could you call Dad selfish when you're being entirely selfish in this conversation?
And you know, that was exactly the point, and I knew it as my mother, that she could not talk about her being selfish.
There was just not an issue that she wanted to discuss.
Right, and so this kind of instinctual avoidance is very common.
Yeah, sorry, I'm sorry, go ahead.
No, no, that's just it.
So she knew where this was going, right?
She knew that if she admitted one more step, then she would have to confess this.
And we didn't even get to, how do you get to condemn a guy that you chose?
Like, where do you go? Choosing a guy and then criticizing him.
He's your choice. Nobody forced you to marry him, right?
And so she knew that all of that stuff was right next door to even the slightest confession of, or the slightest empathy, right?
Yes, and she never confessed to anything, anything.
No. It is all just a strategy to win the next five seconds.
There's no reality, there's no continuity, there's no commitment to any values, there's no commitment to any principles, like honesty, like integrity, like even a slight bit.
It's all just about defeating the next five seconds, blocking the next bullet.
That's all it is.
There's no principle that you can appeal to in someone like that.
There's no crowbar called leverage that you have with somebody like that because all they're interested in is winning the next five seconds.
Yes. Yes.
So I had these thoughts about confronting them before I wrote the different letter and I thought I was a coward or something.
I didn't talk to her again so that I didn't give her a chance to make this a real relationship, you know.
And I... Well, look, I'm not a big fan of the accusations, and that's why...
I mean, as you know, right?
So this is why I try.
I'm not perfect at it, and it's really hard to do in that kind of stressful environment.
And I felt your stress, even just the role-playing, how terrifying it is to try and grapple with this kind of fog.
I mean, it's really to try and stay in reality and trying to stay sane with this kind of constantly being pushed off balance and constantly being fogged and manipulated.
I mean, it's It's really, really confusing.
And it's really, like you really have to plant both your feet on the ground.
So I really got how stressful that is.
And I tried to sort of stay with my experience.
And I also tried to stay with the basic facts of the conversation.
And this is why, I mean, your mom was so good that she was even willing, and I think I had to say three or four times, so you had no idea that it was negative for me.
And that's a tough question, right?
That's a tough question for parents.
Because if they say yes, then they clearly lack empathy.
Right? Like this yelling and calling your dad all these horrible names and so on, and blowing up at him, that she had no idea that that might be negative for you.
That indicates a structural deficiency in the brain, right, as far as empathy goes, right?
And yet, if she says, I knew it was negative for you, then she's revealed as selfish, right?
In other words, that she knew it was negative for you, but she needed to act out her own anger despite its negative effect on you.
And this is why that question is so powerful and difficult for these kinds of people, right?
And that's why she wouldn't answer.
Oh, I have to listen to this again.
I don't even remember what I said then.
Yeah. And then she makes up these wonderfully, seemingly logical arguments, right?
So I say, well, she said, well, it was worse for me than it was for you, right?
And then I bring that up later as you.
And she says, well, it could have been.
And then she's inviting you to go down to that theoretical.
It's like, no, but that's not what you said.
You said it was. Like, you never knew that I was upset.
But then the moment you heard I was upset, you instantly knew that yours was worse than mine.
I mean, that's astounding, right?
And that is somebody who's not interested in your experience.
The one thing, and again, I didn't get to this because I just gave up, which I think was a reasonable thing to do.
But if I had continued, I would have said, Mom, you haven't asked me a single question.
And then she would have responded, well, you haven't asked me a single question either, right?
About my experiences. Of course, right?
We say, but we're talking about my experiences.
Right? Like, if you say to the waiter, my soup is cold, then he's got to deal with your feelings, right?
He doesn't then get to say, well, I have a footache, right?
Right? So if I bring up something that's upsetting, for me, then we need to deal with my feelings.
And then later you can bring up something that's upsetting to you and, oh, but you're always upset about everything.
Like she would do that kind of stuff, right?
Oh, she would have.
And also putting you in with your dad, these monologues.
Like when someone says, are you finished?
What it means is they're telling you they haven't been listening.
Yeah, they're just waiting their turn.
Yeah, somebody says, are you finished?
Yeah, or if they're saying, ah, you finished, or you just had a monologue like your dad, they're saying, I'm not listening to a word you're saying.
Yes, yes. I'm only waiting until you stop making noise so that I can resume my avoidance and defensiveness.
And also insults, right?
So putting you, saying that your dad is a loser and a jerk, and then saying this is exactly like your dad, I mean, it's really, it's a nasty thing to say, right?
Oh, oh my, it is.
So you're doing exactly what the loser does, right?
What the failure does, what the uncultivated guy does.
Yeah, but it's more subtle than calling me a loser.
Exactly. Exactly.
It's beautiful. I mean, it's evil, but it's beautiful.
It's a beautiful kind of evil.
I mean, you have to admire...
It's like a predator. You just have to admire the shark, even if it's chewing on your leg.
You say, that's a pretty damn efficient eating machine, right?
Man, I think that's what I thought when I wrote this post.
You know, it's almost brilliant.
It's evil, but it's brilliant.
Yeah, it is.
And I genuinely, I don't know if you may experience this or not, it's tough to experience what you're feeling when you're roleplaying your mom.
But to me, there was a kind of relief, right?
In saying, well, look, if I as an adult can't get through these defenses, And if I as an adult can clearly see that my mom will admit something and then pretend that she didn't say it within the space of a few minutes, then there was no chance for me to bring this up as a kid.
And then her thing of saying, well, you never brought it up, completely vanishes, right?
Yeah, I have to listen to this again because I was so being my mom.
Sure, sure. She was annoyed.
It was pretty difficult for me.
To roleplay because of the language.
Oh, you did fantastic. You did.
Brilliant. I always had a hack at words and I just couldn't remember the...
I don't know the word for...
But the other thing you brought up about minimizing that just struck me as not being my mom as so true and I didn't see it.
I mean, I told my boyfriend that she would minimize but I only told him about I don't know that she would mock me being tired on a trip or something, but not in a discussion.
Oh, no. If you listen to your mom in this, you will see that she is constantly undercutting and minimizing your experience and then scorning it and mocking it and attacking it.
And she also refuses to...
So she refuses to admit to escalating and destructive language.
Like, you've been hacking at this one word for hours, right?
So she won't admit that that's at all negative or problematic.
Or she said, okay, well, I exaggerated a little, but ew, right?
And the reason she won't say that, and the reason she wouldn't continue, is that the next thing I was going to ask for was, well, would you mind apologizing to me for that?
Yes, yes. And she knew that was coming next, right?
Yes, and that's a constant thing she would say when we were younger.
I don't know what you call it in English.
This being hung up on one word or something and then making a huge discussion out of it.
What is it called in English?
Oh, I think hacking at it is a pretty good way.
I certainly understood exactly what you meant.
But yeah, you're basically saying that somebody is irrationally fixated on one particular word and won't let it go like a dog with a bone that's gone crazy.
Yes. For sure.
For sure. She would do that all the time.
I remember only with my brother, but she...
Definitely did that to me, too.
Right. And so what happens is when you catch somebody in an inconsistency, which is actually just called a lie, when you catch someone in a lie, they then say that you're just obsessive and nitpicky and so on, right?
Yeah. Nitpicky. That's the word.
Right. Yes. Yes.
Right. But, I mean, it's a big lie.
I mean, it's not a nitpicky thing.
It's a big lie when someone confesses that they may have a problem and then immediately denies that they ever said it.
That is a big lie.
And in fact, communication can't continue if somebody doesn't even have the basic commitment or even the slight commitment to integrity to say, I did say that.
And either I did say it, but I don't believe it anymore, or I did say it and I disagree.
I'm changing my opinion of it now.
But if somebody says, I didn't say it, then there is no common language called reality that you're sharing.
Yes, that's true.
Well, it was brilliant of you to say, or to notice that, the minimizing thing.
Oh, and yeah, I really needed to focus on that.
Because the minimizing thing, I mean, minimizing is not even the right word.
I just didn't use the right word because it was too inflammatory.
Because it wasn't like minimizing is making something smaller.
But I think that your, like in the role play, your experience wasn't even minimized.
It simply didn't exist.
Right? So, you know, completely unempathetic is probably closer than minimizing.
Yes. But I was curious whether minimizing would work, because if minimizing works, you can get towards non-empathetic.
But if non-empathetic doesn't work, you think, well, maybe I could have started with minimizing and worked my way up to it or whatever, right?
I can't remember anything I said.
Yeah. It's an amazing thing, eh?
The degree to which we've internalized these particular...
And you've got to watch this, right?
In your relationships, of course, right?
The inner parents are always with us and need to be...
But I would keep this one on a pretty tight leash myself because I don't see any interaction with that manipulation.
No, she hasn't come out for, I don't know, a year or so.
I used her on my boyfriend.
I'm so sorry for that.
Right. But she hasn't come out since.
I was wondering, do we have a little time left?
I have a few minutes. Yeah, my daughter's going to be up shortly, but I have a few more minutes, yes.
Okay, because I have another problem that I just can't figure out.
So I have this reaction that I get when I discuss something with someone that is about a difficult truth.
I get all shaky and muscles in my face begin to twitch and my heart is racing and I must look like a freak, you know?
So I thought this might have happened to me that I was talking about some truth with my mother and she would do something to me so that I have this stressful reaction whenever I wanted to talk to someone about, I don't know, It could be anything.
I mean, yesterday I talked with someone about anarchy and I got this again.
Sorry, so you start bringing out something that's really important to you and you feel a stress and tension, is that right?
Yeah, huge, huge stress.
Like really shaking and I can't control my face.
Right. Right.
Would you have any ideas as to where you think?
I don't want to sort of give you what I think in the absence of your feedback, so you have a thought about.
Well, I have had two huge fights with my mother in my early 20s, which traumatized me really badly because my brother and my father sided with her and it was like it went on forever.
For weeks. I don't recall exactly what was being said, but I recall that I had recurring nightmares after that.
And I think I have this since then.
I don't know. I'm not sure.
Sorry, you said recurring nightmares.
You mean just that experience, or do you mean there's actually a recurring nightmare?
No, no, no. I would dream about the family siding against me.
Right. Yes, and my brother is even more He's even more brilliant than my mother in this evil discussion style.
Right, right, right.
Well, I can tell you what I think it is, and then you can just tell me if this idiot amateur opinion means anything to you.
People who are unempathetic...
In fact, there's no such thing as unempathetic.
There's only anti-empathetic.
And... What the conversation was with your mother that we just role-played was fundamentally this.
Mom, I exist.
I have feelings independent of you.
I have feelings that are inconvenient to you.
I have feelings and experiences that you don't like, but I exist independent of you.
And your mother is saying, You do not exist independent of me.
I disapprove of any discomfort to me, and I will reject your existence if it is inconvenient to me.
And so, when you bring any kind of passion to an interaction that provokes a maternal attack, because Only when children are unemotional or bland or quiet or, quote, good, silent, obedient children, then the narcissist or whatever you would call it, the narcissist for want of a better phrase, the narcissist can deal with that.
The narcissist cannot deal with strong emotions on the part of another human being because that threatens the anti-empathy.
And so when you're trying to bring strong feelings or things that you're passionate about to a conversation with other people, you are basically putting your hand in a historical blender and hitting the frappe button.
Yes. Does that make any sense?
I know that was a complicated way of putting it, and I could try again more simply, but I think you're certainly smart enough to, you obviously have inherited your mom's brilliance and using it for good, which is something to be incredibly admired.
But yeah, passion is very threatening to narcissistic people because if you're passionate and she recognizes your emotions as being separate from hers, that destroys the narcissism.
Okay, so I can only be passionate about something that she shares.
Yeah, you know, like if you're in a crowd and somebody says, like at a rock concert, are you ready to rock?
And everyone goes, yeah! Well, there's no threat in that kind of passion because everyone's doing the same thing.
So if you're passionate in agreement with your mom, beautiful.
But here, in this conversation, I was trying to roleplay a passion for something that was different.
Look, You don't need any skills in a relationship where you always agree.
You don't need any maturity in a relationship where you always agree.
I mean, the reason we need maturity, the reason we need philosophy, the reason we need integrity, is precisely for disagreements, for opposing passions, for negotiating strong differences of opinion.
Yes. And so since you weren't It's just hypothetical.
But since you weren't allowed an emotional life in opposition to your mother's, which all children have, I guarantee you, my daughter, every time we want to go one way in the mall, she always wants to run the other way.
I mean, children have passions and preferences completely at odds with their parents, and they have them quite regularly, and that's exactly how it should be.
If you are not allowed to have passions in opposition to your parents, then when you bring up something that you're passionate about, that are going to be in opposition at some level to what other people already believe, it's going to put you right face to face with those very early emotional attacks that you would have had for that kind of independent emotion.
Yes, yes I see.
Oh yes, okay, that makes sense.
I'm sorry, I normally explain things a little better.
I hope that makes some kind of sense.
No, it makes perfect sense.
I mean, I thought that it must be something like that.
It's just that I can't remember anything.
Right, and you know that childhood trauma destroys the memory, right?
You're aware of that, right? It only leaves the emotional residue.
And can I tell you one other thing that I think is really important?
Yes. I don't think you'll understand your own lack of passion or difficulties with passion until you understand that your mother does not have emotions as you and I would I think understand them.
Defensiveness is not an emotion.
Manipulation is not an emotion.
Striving to win At the other person's expense is not an emotion.
In other words, it's not like she had great empathy with herself and did not have empathy with you.
She has empathy neither for herself nor for you.
So, for instance, if she had empathy with herself, she would say, I know this is a difficult conversation, but my relationship with my daughter is more important than my immediate discomfort.
If she had been cognizant Of her own long-term advantage.
In other words, her desires and preferences in the long term.
Then she would put up with the...
Like you and I, we go to the dentist, we get whatever, we get our tooth drilled.
It may be uncomfortable, but we say, I want to keep the tooth, right?
Oh yes, I see, I see.
Right, so if she had said, okay, this is a really uncomfortable...
Okay, my daughter is doing something really different.
It's really uncomfortable for me.
It must be really hard for my daughter to do this.
I don't want to have this conversation.
But if I completely shoot my daughter down, it's going to do real harm, perhaps irreparable harm to our relationship.
So because I want my daughter in my life, and I have that preference, which is an emotional preference, I am going to sacrifice my immediate comfort to achieve what I want in the long term, which is a continued relationship with my daughter.
Right? So she herself is not experiencing any emotions, but only defensiveness.
Only winning in the moment.
That is not... She has no empathy with her own needs, with her own...
I'm not saying you sympathize with this.
I'm just pointing it out.
No, no, yes. No, I see.
So not only were your own emotions opposed by her, but she did not model for you what it's like to have feelings.
Genuine feelings.
All right, all right.
Okay, I think I don't get this yet, but...
Well, I'll have to think about that last sentence.
Listen to this again. If it doesn't make any sense, let's talk again.
I should run now. I really just want to genuinely apologize for not being around.
I know that you wanted the conversation.
I completely remember booking it.
I booked somebody else at 2 p.m.
It was an interview and I just didn't have you on the list.
There's no indication of your importance.
I hugely, hugely apologize.
It was extremely rude and very poor behavior on my part.
I just really wanted to make sure that you understood that I'm really sorry.
You did absolutely everything right, and it was completely rude on my part, and I really genuinely and completely apologize for that frustration and upset that it caused you waiting and not knowing where I was.
So I just really wanted to be clear about that.
Completely my fault. Thank you for that.
You're welcome. You're welcome.
And I'll send you a copy of this and let me know what you think.
Okay. Thanks for the conversation.
▲
Export Selection