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Jan. 21, 2011 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
58:29
1834 Un-Crushing Ambition - A Listener Conversation

How to take the boot of history from the neck of your future.

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Okay, so I need help answering a question.
There's probably a lot I could talk about, but I'll try to keep this brief for now and answer questions as they come up.
I have a bachelor's degree in psychology, mechanical drafting experience, no job, and a couple thousand dollars to my name.
I moved to Seattle with my best friend to get some physical space from old relationships, as well as for some other reasons.
I have put out over 200 resumes since August and still am unemployed.
I decided to go back to school for graphic design because I enjoyed drafting.
I took out loans to cover the cost of school.
I am going to a tech school and finding the classes don't compare with my other experience at university.
Twice now, one of my teachers Has told me that he thinks I should be in grad school, not there, studying something like architecture, and he put it to be going for the top of the profession, basically what he thinks I should be doing.
Although I don't feel driven towards architecture, his words have struck some kind of emotional chord.
I ran into him again, this was last night, And he told me about a program at the University of Washington.
As I was sitting in class, all I could think about was, am I making a huge mistake studying graphic design, taking out these loans, going to school here, instead of going to grad school for counseling?
I've thought about becoming a counselor before, but I always gave myself reasons why I couldn't do it.
I even have a school picked out I looked again, and the application deadline is February 1st.
I'm feeling quite distressed about this.
Any questions or suggestions would be really helpful.
Right. And what kind of jobs have you been applying for?
I've been looking in a couple different areas.
Before I decided to go back to school, I was looking at kind of social service jobs, like working with People with disabilities are helping people get jobs and just there's various kind of positions like that that you can get with only a bachelor's in psychology.
It's kind of limited in the field if you don't have a master's but there are things like that working with working with people who have drug problems or have been in juvie or whatever.
But since I started Going to school for graphic design, I stopped looking at those jobs, and I've been looking also at drafting jobs, which there just aren't many because the construction industry sucks right now.
I've been looking at administrative positions because I have a little bit of experience with that and a college degree and office experience, even if most of it's drafting.
Okay, so I mean these are sort of low-range entry jobs without a huge amount of up potential, is that right?
Yeah, for the most part.
And have you received any interviews or offers?
I've had four interviews and I have not received any offers.
Most recently, I actually got really good feedback about an interview.
It was through a temp agency.
They set it up, and they called me to say, like, look, these guys really like you.
It was for a drafting position, but they're afraid to pour the resources into you because you're going to school.
Right, so there's a concern that you then are going to continue on somewhere else.
They're going to lose their investment, right?
Yeah, which I... I guess I didn't think about that aspect before going back to school so much.
And why would you, right?
I mean, that's not exactly intuitive.
Unless you've been on the other side of the hiring desk, there's no reason why you would think of any of those things, right?
Yeah. Right.
Alright, so let's just play the infinite resources game, right?
Which doesn't necessarily make any decisions for you, because ultimately, of course, it is your decision.
The infinite resources game is if you won the lottery, what would you do?
Like you won $20 million, right?
But you have to have something to fill your day, right?
So if you won $20 million, what would you do?
What would be your career choice?
What would be your educational choices if you had all the resources in the world?
I mean, I think I would do psychology in that situation.
Do psychology means you would become a psychologist or a therapist or a counselor?
Either I would become like a counselor or I would do something to support the advancement of the field, even if it was something like philanthropic or, you know, Funding research.
And let's just say that philanthropy was not available for some reason and you had to do it yourself.
So you would become a psychologist if you had the resources to pursue it.
Is that right? I think so.
Well, that's the problem, right?
Or would you do something else completely?
Would you become a surfer?
Would you become a mime?
There's lots of other things that you could do, right?
So what's... What's in the cards, if you had all the resources in the world?
The only other thing I could think of would be maybe a musician, but I don't know.
I think I could do more to kind of help the world as a counselor than as a musician.
Yeah, but if helping the world was a very strong motivation for you, then you wouldn't think about it.
You'd have some more certainty.
And I hope you understand. This is not in any way a criticism.
This is just sort of what I'm noticing.
Right? Yeah.
Wanting to help the world is not enough of a motivation to do anything, really, in the long run.
I mean, I could tell you what some of the things that I like about the idea of doing psychology as a profession is No, no, I get all of that, but it's not me you need to sell, right?
It's you. Okay, so since you studied psychology, I'm sure you know what my next question is going to be.
No, at least I'm not aware of it.
Well, what is your history, your family history, your childhood history, your personal history with...
Desire and goal setting and achievement and encouragement and enthusiasm and all of those good things.
Okay, I've got the perfect answer, I think.
You've got the perfect answer?
I think maybe. Or a good answer.
A good answer. Hopefully just the right answer.
Okay. I put this on the board recently in response to somebody else, actually.
So, when I was a kid and I would express...
A relatively ambitious desire to my father, I would get in response the laundry list of everything that's going to be difficult, of all the risks, of all the number of steps and resources it's going to take,
and everything negative about doing it, with no encouragement, without a real rational exploration of what The risks actually are and how likely things are to go wrong and just without positivity at all.
It was just a long laundry list of everything negative about that idea.
Right, right, right.
And why do you think he did that? I think the ambitions I was expressing made him uncomfortable.
Which might be because he didn't do what he wanted to do.
I mean, he's had success in what he has done.
He is in charge.
He's the CEO of...
I don't want to get into any details about him.
You see, he's successful, right?
But are you saying he's not doing what he really wanted to do?
Do you know what he really wanted to do?
That's just my guess.
Well, actually, one time he did tell me that...
Early on in college, before he decided what he wanted to do, he thought archaeology would be really, really cool.
But he decided not to do it because of how few jobs there are and how hard it is to succeed in it.
So he basically chose the field he did because he was good at math and could have success at it.
And... But the odds of him becoming CEO are pretty small, right?
I mean, relative to how many people want to be CEO and how many CEO jobs there are, right?
It's a relatively small number who achieve it, so he certainly beat the odds, right?
Yeah. Right.
Interesting. Interesting.
Now, I mean, businessmen as a whole or business people as a whole are sort of trained to look at the problems.
They're trained to look at the negatives.
That's what you're paid for. You know, like you don't want to go to your doctor and have your doctor tell you everything that's going right with your body.
You just kind of want to have the doctor tell you what's not going right if there's a problem.
And it's the same thing within business.
You're sort of trained to look at The negatives, the problems, and that's your job, right?
So that may be...
I'm not saying it's just a result of his job, but that's part of his job, which is to sort of throw up the barriers.
Yeah. But it also may be that he has that as a habit, and that's why he became good at that kind of job, right?
Yeah. All right.
And what about your mom? Um...
In terms of, like...
I don't remember her.
She didn't seem to have that attitude that my dad did in terms of, like, giving me that negative laundry list.
I feel like she would express some kind of positive thing back to me when I would want to do something.
I know...
But one thing I do notice is I have kind of an opposite thing going on with her where, like, I play music...
For fun or whatever. And when I would do something like that, she'd always throw all these praises on me.
Huge praises. But I hate it.
I hate it when she does.
For some reason. Yeah, it sounds like my mom a little bit, but go on.
And I would always fight her on it.
Like, no, it sucked.
I'm not that good. You're wrong.
It would just kind of escalate.
She'd get mad at me for that.
Why do you think you did that?
I really think that you're talented at this.
Sorry, what was the question?
Why do you think you did that?
Why do I think I fought her on it?
Yeah. I don't know.
Other than that, I didn't like it.
There was some kind of emotional...
Negative emotional experience that I have when she does that.
I'm gonna sort of go out on a limb here and just tell you that and this is all you know impressions off the top of my head so you can toss aside as usual anything that doesn't work for you but your family sounds like they talk about topics not feelings.
And what I mean by that is your mom had some reason for overpraising you as you experienced it, and you had some reason, but you didn't say, Mom, it makes me feel really uncomfortable and frustrated when you overpraise me.
Yeah. You talked about the topic called musical talent or musical ability rather than the emotional experience of the interaction.
Does that make any sense? Yeah, I agree.
So with your dad, I'm sorry to interrupt.
I'm saying your family didn't listen, so let me keep talking.
And with your dad, it sounds like you had ambitions that he thought may be too risky or whatever, and So you talked about the pluses, or I guess he talked about the minuses of those ambitions, right?
So it's like, I want to be an actor.
Well, you know, 98% of actors, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
And then you start talking about the particular ambition and the pluses and the minuses and the odds and so on, and that's talking about the topic.
Now, if the... And that's fine.
There's nothing wrong with talking about topics, of course, right?
But if the topic is a symptom...
Of an underlying emotional experience, then talking about the topic is a distraction.
Does that make any sense?
I'm sorry. It doesn't, right?
Okay, I'll try again.
Okay, so give me an ambition that you talked about with your dad that he, I wouldn't say shot down, but poured the negatives on.
Well, there was a time when I talked a lot about wanting to pursue music really, really hard and try to be able to have a career in it.
And I'm sure that he told me that I need to have a day job and it doesn't work out for almost anybody and blah blah blah.
Does your dad like music?
Not nearly like I do.
No, but listening to music, does he have CDs?
Does he listen to music at all? Yeah, he listens to music.
He listens to oldies.
It's always struck me as kind of funny that people who scorn or...
Think that the arts is not a good occupation.
So often enjoy watching movies and listening to music and going to concerts and having paintings hung in the house.
You know, these are all people who didn't listen to the advice that they're giving them.
Do you know what I mean? A lot of what we really enjoy is produced by people who didn't calculate the arts in the way that the people who consume the music would approve of, if that makes any sense.
Yeah. Anyway, so what I mean is, so you say, look, I want to do music, right?
And you're expressing a desire.
And your dad, let's just say, he feels anxiety about your future.
Let's take the most positive spin that we can.
He wants you to be happy.
He feels anxiety for your future.
He knows people who've tried and failed.
And he's got a good job. He can provide for his family.
And he's concerned that you're going to waste your life pursuing something that you can't achieve.
And not even to do with your talent, just to do with odds and opportunity and so on.
That you can't achieve it and he's concerned that you're going to waste your life and be broke and poor and be stuck in crap jobs and work two jobs in a sense because you're pursuing music and it's going to be a miserable life.
So let's just say that he's really worried about that for you and it comes from a good place and blah blah blah blah, right?
Well, it's provoked by anxiety, right?
Yeah. And so you have a desire...
And what you're talking about is not...
Fundamentally what you're talking about is not a plan, but a desire, right?
Like you're not saying, Dad, I'm going to quit, I'm going to go and play on the steps of Juliet until they take me, and then I'm going to clone David Foster as my producer, and blah blah blah, right?
It's not a plan, you're talking about a desire.
You're talking about a feeling.
I would like to, I want to, it would be fun to, right?
I would prefer to. So you're talking about a feeling there.
Not a plan. Is that fair to say?
Yeah. Okay.
So that's a feeling, right?
Now, if your dad responds to your feeling as if it's a plan, then he's not talking about what you're talking about.
He's not responding to what you're talking about.
So you say, it would be great to be a musician.
And look, I mean, who alive doesn't think it would be fun to be a musician?
Of course it would be. Of course, I don't know if you know this old story about the Benny Goodman Orchestra, you know, the old big band guys, right?
There's a story about the Benny Goodman Orchestra, which I think is pretty relevant.
So they're on a train, and it's Thanksgiving, and they're going to do a concert somewhere.
And the train breaks down.
And it's cold and it's snowing wherever in godforsaken hell's back acre that they are.
It's cold and it's snowing.
And of course their big band equipment weighs like 90 tons.
So what they have to do is they really don't want to miss the gig.
And so they haul their crap off the train and they're humping their way knee deep through snow trying not to drop their band equipment and they're crossing farmer's fields to try and get to the town which is in sight over the hill.
And You know, they don't have winter clothes.
They don't have winter boots. They have their formal shoes on because they're doing a big band.
Formal dining kind of a show.
And they're humping past some farmhouse, right?
And they're miserable and they're cold and they're weighed down and their feet and toes are frozen and all that.
And they've got this huge heavy bass drums and trombones and all the equipment.
And they sort of stop and there's a curtain that's open a little bit and inside...
There's a family, and they're eating their Thanksgiving dinner, and it's warm, there's a fireplace, and they're laughing, and they're telling jokes, and they're singing in the background, and everybody's having a great time.
And one of the band members looks at the other band member, you know, again, completely wet, frozen, heavy equipment on their back, miles to go to get to the gig.
One of the band members looks at the other and says, my God, how can people live like that?
And that's what's always struck me about how desirable being a musician is.
And it is fun. God, I mean, who doesn't look at those concerts like Queen or the Eagles or, you know, whoever you like.
Like, what a thrill, what a high it would be to perform in that kind of way, whether it's classical or gospel or rock or, you know, whatever it is.
I mean, what a thrill. Flashpots and groupies and travel and you get to work only a couple of hours a day if you want and people listen to your music and you've got fans and you can make a lot of money.
I mean... So you're talking about it would be great fun to be a musician, right?
And my response, like if Isabella comes and says, I really want to be a musician, I'm like, I can understand that.
That would be a pretty great life, right?
Yeah. Do you see what I mean?
mean like you're just talking about a desire I'm because I can't see you I have no idea if you've fallen asleep or No, I haven't fallen asleep.
But tell me what you think about what I'm saying.
Same.
Or tell me what you're feeling.
I don't know.
I feel, I guess, a tinge of sadness.
I don't feel a lot...
Right this second, but maybe a little sad.
And what do you think the sadness is about?
Well, I mean, kind of what you're saying, I guess, is just like it was never an exploration of what I was feeling and what I was excited about.
It was always actually like just talking about how hard it's going to be and a demand for a plan.
It was demanded that I have a plan.
I needed to convince him that I had a foolproof plan of how it was going to work.
Which, of course, is impossible no matter what you're doing, right?
Yeah. And then at the same time, in conjunction with this, he'd call me a slacker for not trying real hard.
I just kind of did school on cruise control, for example, and everybody could tell.
Right, right, right.
Okay, so this is, I mean, I think this is helpful.
First of all, I think slacker is a pretty nasty term.
I really do. And particularly coming from a parent, it's a problematic term.
Because the real question is not what, but why.
What occurs in relationships, it's not the what, it's the why.
It's not, you didn't do the dishes, you didn't take out the garbage, you didn't do your chores, you didn't vacuum, you didn't clean or whatever.
That's the what. And families always get involved in the what.
You know, the topic rather than the experience.
The experience is, I mean, if my daughter gets...
Is listless or bored in school?
You know, what's the appropriate response?
Ask her what's going on for her, what she's feeling.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, if something breaks, you don't just thump it, right?
I mean, you open it up and you figure out what's going on, right?
Yeah, I mean, it may not even be A real problem big picture, if you take a second to be kind of open and curious about it.
It may be a massive opportunity.
You know, dysfunction, for want of a better phrase, dysfunction is a huge opportunity.
It's a huge opportunity.
I mean, if the world is insane, then someone who's dysfunctional in that world is a huge opportunity to make it saner, right?
Because everybody who's adapting and has no problem with that world is by definition insane, right?
Sorry, that's too abstract.
Yeah, so if you are unmotivated in school, there is a huge opportunity to say, I wonder what's The problem.
Tell me what the issue is.
Why do you think?
When did you start to feel demotivated?
What happened? Has it been getting better?
Has it been getting worse? At what speed?
There's a huge opportunity to get to know somebody.
In that, right? And a huge opportunity to find a different way of experiencing things, of doing things.
Maybe it's a different school.
Maybe it's homeschooling. Maybe it's, who knows, some arts?
I mean, who knows, right? Could be any number of things.
And all of that doesn't really matter.
The only thing that really matters is, well, why do you think this is occurring?
Here's an opportunity for self-knowledge.
Here's an opportunity for problem solving.
Here's an opportunity for a productive conversation in a relationship.
Here's an opportunity to be gentle.
With another person and so encourage them to be gentle with themselves, right?
Yeah, I imagine it would lead to more intimacy.
Yeah, and you'd know then that somebody's in your corner, right?
That if you have a problem with the world, the people in your family should damn well side with you.
Unless there's all evidence to the contrary, right?
If my wife has a problem with someone, she's right.
If my daughter has a problem, and my daughter too, if my daughter has a problem with another kid, she's right.
Because we're family, which means we got each other's backs.
Now, I mean, that doesn't mean that everybody in the family is above criticism, but the default position is, yeah, my wife is right.
And if, you know, we talk about it and we talk about it, she finds out that she's in error, The important thing is not for me to tell her that.
I mean, what's the point of that? That's like me giving the answer to a math problem when my daughter is 8.
That doesn't give her any help. Here, let me hold your hand and write in 67.
What has that done? It doesn't do anything other than have her think that I don't think she can understand it, right?
Yeah, and by exploring it in that way together, even if it turns out that she was wrong about her conclusions, It's still you being there for her.
It's still you having each other's back.
Yes, and if she's wrong, then she can go through the process of problem solving.
My daughter, I mean, when she gets older, she'll have gone through the process of problem solving and figuring out that she's wrong, which is exactly what needs to be reproduced, what she needs to reproduce in the future.
Parents are supposed to be teaching their kids the goddamn life skills to allow them to problem solve independent of the parent, right?
Yeah. And you do not problem solve a lack of motivation by taking out the medieval lash called slacker and beating yourself up with it, right?
That doesn't solve a damn thing.
It doesn't teach you anything. It doesn't tell you anything.
Yeah, I know it hurt, too.
Oh, I bet it did. I bet it did.
Especially from, you know, this economically high-functioning dad, right?
Yeah. And eventually I told my...
Eventually I ended up telling myself that I was a slacker too, but I think I can still remember the time when it hurt and I disagreed very strongly, even though I wouldn't say so.
And maybe I said so at some point way back, I don't know, but...
And, I mean, my response now, right, would be to your dad, would be to say something like, oh, okay, so do you think that it's important, it's a good and important job being a dad, you know, being a good father is an important thing.
Yes, of course it is, right?
Great. Okay, so this is a very important job for you.
Can you tell me what you've done to prepare for it?
What seminars did you take?
What books did you read?
What experts did you consult?
What kind of feedback do you have in terms of your parenting, which is a very important job, and what would he say?
Well, if I was a little kid, he'd call me a smartass really angrily and maybe smack me.
But now he would get angry, and I don't know exactly what he would say.
Right, okay, so if he'd get angry at you as a kid and he's calling you a smartass, then it would be like, okay, so apparently good parenting means that if your kid asks you a legitimate question about your expertise, that you get angry and smack them, Dad.
I was wondering if you could just point out to me the expert book that you've read that says that is the best way to parent.
You know, because you're calling me a slacker because I'm not motivated at school.
I should be motivated at school.
I should be studying. I should be learning.
I should be acquiring better knowledge.
So why don't you lead my example and show me how you've acquired all this great knowledge about how to be a great parent?
And of course, the answer is that there's no expert in the world who says that if your child asks you a serious question, that you get angry and smack them.
I mean, that's just shitty parenting, right?
That's just shitty, nasty parenting.
And so the question of slacker is always interesting to me, and it's always applied to the young by parents who've been complete goddamn slackers about acquiring better parenting habits.
You understand, it's a projection, right?
He's the lazy one, because he's not studying about how to be a better parent, which is the most important thing.
Yeah, or just self-knowledge in general.
Yeah, like how about being a slacker about self-knowledge?
I mean, I just think it's important.
The reason, like when people insult us and it has impact, it's because they're self-describing.
Smacking your kid when your kid asks a serious and legitimate question of you is lazy, slacker, dumb, brutal parenting.
So when he calls you a slacker, it has impact because he's self-describing.
The most potent insults are the ones that come to us with the emotional charge of a self-description on the part of the attacker.
Does that make any sense?
Yeah, when you talked about Smacking being a slacker parent tactic, basically, because it's harmful and counterproductive.
I felt that one, I think.
Yeah, well, I'm sure your dad, a CEO, would have had some sales experience, right?
No, he does engineering.
So he's never had to deal with customers?
Well, no, that's true. He does.
He meets with clients and sells.
Right. So the question is then, of course, when his customers question his expertise or have a problem with the product or the service, does he just yell at them and smack them?
No, seriously. This is a serious question.
If this is the right way to handle things with a 4-year-old or a 10-year-old, of course it must be the right way to handle things with a 40-year-old or a 50-year-old, right?
You can't have higher standards for a 4-year-old than you do for a 40-year-old, right?
That's insane. So did your dad yell at, pound the table, intimidate, and smack around the customers who had criticisms of his product or services?
No, he provided the evidence.
Yeah, he would be conciliatory.
He would be helpful.
He may vent in private, but in front of the customer, he's going to be sweetness, rose, petals, and conciliation, right?
Yeah. Right, right, right.
Do you know how sad that is?
I feel so sad just thinking about the level of respect that The parents give to economically useful strangers compared to their own flesh and blood.
Do you know, I mean, that is so overwhelmingly tragic.
I don't even have words, I mean, I'm pretty verbally adept, I just don't even have words to describe how tragic that is.
You know, I just did this...
Sorry?
I do feel sad still.
That is very sad. That is very sad.
And, of course, it's, you know, when he gets old, he's going to want you to be around.
I mean, none of these goddamn customers are going to come help him when he gets old, right?
I mean, talk about missing the big picture.
Talk about...
Okay, can I just give you one other thing that just popped into my head?
Yeah. Well...
Yeah, this is a big one.
So he said that it was too risky for you to be a musician, right?
Yeah. How risky, in terms of your future relationship, how risky was his parenting?
Well, since I'm trying for self-knowledge, very risky.
But you see what I'm saying?
He's talking about the need to plan and act intelligently to make sure that you have a secure future.
Yeah, but he didn't apply it to the most important.
The most important.
The most important.
I mean, other than the one with his wife, or your mom, sorry.
How risky was his parenting?
Was he managing his risks with his kids and his future relationship with his kids?
No, he was just...
It's so complex and dense, it's completely tragic, that by him...
In a sense, rejecting your feelings or attacking you or smacking you around for questions or criticisms, when he was doing that with regards to your future risks, he was creating his own future risks by doing that.
You know, for him berating you, you've got to learn to be better at managing risk.
But that very approach is creating huge risks, right?
It's just another projection, basically.
Yeah, I think so.
And I can really understand your mom's overpraise of your abilities.
Can you sort of understand that now?
Is it like she feels guilty about the way dad is treating me on this?
Dad blows a crater in your heart and mom tries to fill it in.
But nobody's talking about what's actually happening, right?
Yeah, I mean, she should be talking to me about And talking to dad about...
Yeah, she should be talking to your dad, right?
Saying, look, this is not right.
You know, this is not right.
You know, I've read, I mean, so many parenting books by now.
And I've gone through therapy and my wife and I talk about, I mean, it's at least half an hour and sometimes more than an hour every single day about our parenting.
What went right, what went wrong, how to improve, what our longer term plans are, what milestones are coming up that we need to plan for.
What level of discipline or feedback is appropriate?
How are we going to deal with things like, you know, Isabella throws balls that can knock things over?
How do we deal with that kind of stuff in the most peaceful and positive way possible?
Because that's my job.
And parents who aren't doing that, who aren't saying, you know, okay, well, what worked and what didn't, right?
I mean, this is what people do in business all the time, all the time.
I mean, in some businesses, it's every single day, right?
When I worked in a restaurant, there was constant feedback about, you know, we sold this many pizzas at lunch today, but we ordered this many, so let's cut it back a little bit, and we're a little bit low on cheese, and, you know, we have too much of this, and, you know, try and upsell the hot chocolate because it's going to go bad, or whatever it is, right? There was a constant review of quality, right?
And a constant planning.
But what the fuck does it matter?
A business, a restaurant, an engineering company, what does that matter relative to the quality of your family relationships, the quality of your relationship with your husband, your wife, your children?
So, I've hammered this point, and I'm sorry for repeating it, but Why is there so much focus on quality and feedback and excellence in every institution but the one that matters the most, the one that we rely on, the one that we need, the one that we work the hardest at just in terms of being a parent?
Being a parent is a huge amount of work.
So, yeah, I mean, your mom should have said, look, Dad, that was not good.
I think that was not helpful.
I think that was not positive.
And I know that because I have the strong urge to go and praise him, right, to sort of build him back up.
So, you know, what was going on for you?
Why do you think you did that? Just basic stuff.
I mean, your dad wouldn't tolerate one of his employees berating or upsetting or hurting a client.
He would intervene and say, no, no, no, no, right?
And that's what's just, I just really wanted to sort of point out that that's everything that you're accused of, you know, this lazy ass parenting, it just drives me crazy.
Because it's not how people live their lives as a whole.
You know, I mean, my mom would like, she really wanted to stay thin.
She'd do leg lifts every day and make sure she didn't Eat too much.
And she fussed about her hair and her makeup.
And she got a nose job because she thought her nose was too big.
So she put so much effort into her appearance.
So I know she's capable of working hard at something that she finds value in.
It just wasn't anything to do with being a quality family member, being a quality parent.
Your parents, right? I'm sure your mom did her makeup and her hair and didn't leave the house looking a mess, right?
Yeah. So, that's important, right?
That's important to her. She's willing to put time and work and effort into that.
Make sure her hair has dyed nicely and she's got the right makeup on and the right outfit and goes shopping for shoes and all this sort of shit, right?
The fuck does any of that matter compared to the quality of your relationship?
With the people in your life.
I don't know. I'm sorry about the long rant.
I just really wanted to just highlight that because it's something that's missed so often by people.
Yeah, I feel that to some degree.
I think there's more feeling that I have to do on that point in particular.
But I definitely have felt sad during thinking about that.
Right. So there is a pattern, right?
So there's an internalization.
And I mean, we can role play that if you want.
We can do whatever you want with it in terms of your dad.
But you're going to have internalized, right?
Everybody leaves footprints in our brains that keep walking and walking around and around like these ghostly dinosaurs.
Everybody leaves footprints in our brains.
Everybody puts algorithms or programs or conversations or arguments in our head and they keep going and keep going and keep going.
So, when you think of being enthusiastic about something, when you think of wanting something, right, your historical conversations, they rise up and they drown it out, right?
Is that a fair thing to say?
Yeah. Right.
Right. Right.
So, the way that I approach it, which is obviously just my own way, I think it's worthwhile enough to discuss and perhaps for you to give it a shot, is just challenge those voices.
It's like, oh, so you're all so much about excellence and you're all so much about planning.
Where was your excellence in planning and how you raised me?
Where was your commitment to quality?
Where was your commitment to thinking things through?
Where was your commitment to minimizing your risks when you were parenting me?
Because you have to push these voices back with universality, with UPB. Which is, hey, you know, quality and forethought and planning, these are all good things.
And you know that they're good things in your relationships because you did them at work.
You have to push, you have to get these bulls of self-criticism or internalized parental criticism, you have to get them to stop in their tracks.
Otherwise they just keep running over you, right?
Yeah. And the pushback is essential.
I mean, to me, this is a kind of, it's a boundary setting.
And it's the same thing that I would do with anybody in my life who spoke to me in the way that your internal voices, you know, seem to be speaking to you.
I need to... Sorry, go ahead.
So I need to take, in terms of this particular decision, think about those things that come up in my head, all the reasons why it will be hard or it won't work, etc.
And... And kind of confront them and just take it, slow down for a second and be like, what does this mean?
Why is this? Don't make a list.
I wouldn't suggest making a list, column A and column B, pros and cons and all of that, because it's not about that.
It's not about the topic, it's about the feelings.
It's not about the topic, it's about the feelings.
You have something that you want to pursue or you're interested in pursuing, but when you think about it, Tell me if I'm wrong, there's a kind of paralysis, there's a kind of falling away of enthusiasm.
That's everything that I ever feel ambitious about.
It's like ambitious for like a day, or even maybe a couple days that's really high, but then when it comes to even taking the steps even to start doing it, it's just gone.
Right. Right.
Right. Right.
So it all falls away and there's this kind of sigh, this heaviness, this deadness, this emptiness, this deflation.
Does that sort of make sense? Yeah.
Right. It's like a short circuit.
Enthusiasm is going over a brittle copper wire in a cold room and, you know, it just kind of shorts it out and everything just kind of slowly goes dark.
Is that what you experience?
Yeah. And then, of course, I attack myself Bore that fact, too.
Bore of my life. Right. That's the point, right?
Then it's like, oh my God, I can't even keep my motivation for...
Right? And then you end up in situations where, as you say, your teacher, at least it's fairly obvious that you're in the wrong place.
Again, according to your teacher, maybe that teacher's right or wrong.
Who knows? But the important thing is that it's not about goals and plans, and it's not about you.
It's not about you. It is about the effect...
That your parents have had on you and your teachers and I don't know, maybe your priests, whatever.
But I'd focus on what we talked about earlier in the conversation.
Your experience of motivation and enthusiasm at the hands of your dad.
Do you know, being an enthusiasm killer is the laziest thing in the world.
Because it's so easy. It's so easy.
You know, it's hard to grow roses, right?
It's easy to stomp on them.
Right?
It's hard to build things It's easy to destroy them.
And that's what I mean when I say being an enthusiasm killer is the laziest thing in the world.
Because everybody who's enthusiastic is by definition vulnerable.
And everybody who shares an enthusiasm with another human being is vulnerable.
And stepping on that fragile plant called enthusiasm, or pulling it up by the roots, is the easiest and laziest thing that a human being can do.
It kills the conversation.
It kills the exploration.
It doesn't require any curiosity.
And it is the cheapest form of superiority in the world.
It is the cheapest and laziest form of superiority in the world.
To put down somebody else's enthusiasm.
Right? Because you feel like, yeah, I'm older, I'm wiser, I'm smarter, I'm more practical, more realistic, whatever it is, right?
Yeah. So what?
If I never try, then I'm never going to learn how to be any of those things.
If I never feel able to Even attempt to pursue anything that requires me to put off short-term gratification and take a long view and do a lot of steps and stuff.
Well, and you have to undo a lot of bad parenting in order to maintain the enthusiasm and that's going to come at the expense of your dad, at least in the short run.
Like your real dad, right? Yeah.
So if you sort of look and say, holy shit, I've got a big crater where my enthusiasm should be, and I can see daddy's footprints all over it, then you've got some reason to be pissed off.
You've got some real reason to have, I think, an important conversation with your dad.
And it's not going to be fun for him to have that conversation.
He doesn't want you to bring this up, obviously, right?
Yeah, no. And we know that because given that you're floundering around a little bit, which makes perfect sense and is in no way a criticism, right?
Any parent would sit there and say, okay, well, so you're having a little trouble finding your gear, getting started, so let's sit down and talk about this.
Where do you think this might have come from?
Is there anything that I did?
You know, all those kinds of things, right?
Yeah. And there are people, and I don't know if this is true or not with your dad.
I mean, I don't know if any of this is true or not with your dad.
It's just my impressions and thoughts.
I mean, there are people in the world who, you know, like Gore Vidal said, it's not enough for me to succeed.
My friends must also fail.
Right? Who are invested in the failure of others in order to feel more successful themselves.
I also guarantee you that nothing your dad is doing to you is anything that he hasn't already done to himself.
Most times with people, I mean, it's sad but true, most times with people, all they're doing is having a conversation with themselves, with you as a stand-in, right?
It doesn't have anything to do with you, fundamentally.
Yeah, he's got stuff that he didn't do.
Enthusiasm was knocked out of him, and he was replaced with this practical, economically efficient robot, dream crusher dude, or whatever.
And it's just a conversation about his own enthusiasms.
It fundamentally doesn't, I would argue, fundamentally doesn't have anything to do with you.
And we know that because he's not talking about your thoughts and your feelings.
Right? He's just weighing you down with the practical consequences of daydreaming to the point where the daydream just kind of fades away.
Yeah, I mean...
And what does that say about...
Well, maybe I'm missing the point with that.
I was going to say what does that say about how much he believes in me and my abilities, but that's a little bit beside me.
No, but it's not about you because he's not exploring your abilities, right?
Yeah. Right?
He's not exploring your abilities.
Yeah. Yeah. Right?
I mean, he's not saying, well, play me something, and maybe I'll sit down and talk with your teacher, and let's record something, and take it to a music expert, and let's figure it out, and let's get some objective opinions here, and let's figure out...
Right? That would be to explore your capacities and your abilities, right?
Yeah. But that...
I mean, was any of that occurring?
No. Right.
Which means it's not about you.
I don't take things personally...
And this is a ridiculous thing to say.
I'm aware of that, right? Because, I mean, we have to take everything our parents say personally at some point in their lives.
But when you get older, it's not about you.
It was not a judgment about you.
You know, all my friends who were...
It was incomprehensible that I could do a podcast, you know, and try and make it a career.
I mean, are they all stuck in the same...
Dumb jobs they were five years ago.
Or they're unemployed. Right?
It just didn't have anything to do with me.
I mean, it wasn't like they'd sat there and said, look, you know, I know a lot about podcasting and there's only two guys in the world who make money at it.
And they do it this way and you're not going to take any ads and you're not going to sell your books.
So, you know, this is my concern about, but I have been listening to show, it's quality, but blah, blah, blah.
That would be to have some knowledge of what they were criticizing.
Right? But just say, you know, keep it as a hobby.
I mean, you know, you've got a good career in IT. You know, don't get suckered into this, especially the donation model.
They didn't ask any questions.
They didn't do any market research.
They didn't even really listen to any of my shows.
Yeah, I mean, even if it sounded maybe a little risky, a little unrealistic, like, why not ask some questions?
Why not be a little curious?
You know, maybe. Sometimes people do do Great things that other people haven't really done.
Right. And as I pointed out, it's like, you love these, you know, one of these guys is like, he loves indie bands, right?
Like bad religion and sort of bands that are pretty unknown.
And he was always like these obscure bands.
It's like, but I mean, you love all of this music that was created by people who not only didn't think of the odds, but are on the losing end of the odds, right?
Right. So why is it okay for the bands that you love but not okay for your friend?
You don't even know these bands and you're happy that they bucked the odds or took risks that for a lot of them didn't pay off.
So why is it not okay for me to do it?
Well, because if I do it, it means it's possible, right?
If I get the life that I love, It means it's possible.
If I seize the day and get the day, it means it's possible.
Which means that other people then have to confront why they're not seizing the day, which leads them back to their families and their friends and their siblings and all the stuff that they don't want to examine, right?
Yeah. If one guy opens the door to the jail and says, Shit!
It's never even been locked!
Everybody who is heavily invested in staying in jail doesn't want to push their door, right?
So it's a big thing that you're thinking of.
It's a fundamental thing.
It's a generation-breaking thing in terms of the cycle.
You are looking at breaking a cycle that may have gone on for 50 generations in your bloodline.
Maybe. I don't know, right?
But it's a big thing. And it's big not just for you or your dad or your mom or extended family.
It's big for your friends.
It's big for everyone you meet in the future.
It's big, big, big.
And so it is a heavy burden to face.
It is a big thing to face.
And that's why I say it's about the feelings and the experiences and the tragedy of having enthusiasm and And it starts very early.
I've got to stop in a sec.
But it starts very early. My daughter is now big into fantasy baking.
So she'll take a coaster and she'll pretend to make a cheesecake and then feed it to her teddy bears with coffee and all that.
And if I were to say, this is a coaster.
There's no egg.
Stop screwing around.
Go learn some letters.
Do something useful.
I mean, how tragic would that be?
I felt some anger when you said that.
Go on. There's no reason to do that.
That's kind of fucked up.
She's not stupid.
She knows that there's no actual cheesecake there.
She's just having fun.
Just enjoying life, right?
Doing what makes her happy.
Yeah, she is experiencing pleasure and experiencing desire.
And if I quash that as a parent, I am sending her out into the world as a kind of slave.
As a kind of broken thing.
And I don't have that right.
I don't have the right to bend the spine of her desires until it snaps.
That's not. I don't have that right.
Even if I wanted to, which I don't, obviously, I don't have that right.
I need her to have enthusiasm so that she can go out into the world as a whole thing, as an enthusiastic being who's going to be able to satisfy her wants in life, which is happiness, because she's going to have wants.
And not think that they're silly or impractical or ridiculous or going to lead her off some sort of cliff edge.
I can't do that.
that.
I can't do that as a parent.
Any more than I can bend her fingers back until they snap.
Thank you.
Because that at least heals.
Anyway, those are just my general thoughts about it.
It is a very big thing that you're facing.
I hugely sympathize.
But you're not broken because you're in this conversation and you're thinking about helping the world and all of that stuff.
It's fantastic and great and something to be enormously proud of.
Yeah. And myself too.
I mean, I can see the things that would benefit me about it.
I can see the things that I would really like about my life and the possibilities of the people I'm going to Meet who are already interested in psychology and studying psychology continuously for a living and helping people better their lives and learning about myself through the process even more and all that kind of stuff.
Oh, I think, I mean, personally, I think it would be a great thing to do.
I think it would be a great thing to do.
And I have no doubt whatsoever that you can do it.
And I have no doubt whatsoever that it would be a very satisfying and enriching thing to do.
And I think it will be a very...
A healing thing for you to do for yourself and for others and for your future kids and your family and all that.
I'm nothing but enthusiastic when people like you say that therapy or psychology is of interest.
I think that's a beautiful thing.
And yeah, you can do it. I mean, obviously, you're a very smart guy, and you can do it if you want.
I have no doubt about that.
But there is, I think, some work that you need to do about this kind of history to be able to maintain that kind of enthusiasm.
Yeah, I always have a tortured relationship with my wants as a result of As a result of this way that I was treated.
So it's just hard for me sometimes to see and to feel any kind of certainty about those kind of things.
Right, right. But it is achievable.
It is achievable. It's not inevitable.
And through that kind of release from history, I think you could be the most effective in helping others in the future.
Yeah. All right.
I'm sorry, dude, but I do have to.
I've got another call on just now, so I better boogie.
But I hope that this was helpful, and I'll send you a copy, of course.
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