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Dec. 28, 2010 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
58:08
1814 The Moral Clarity of a Lonely History - A Listener Conversation
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So I was sitting at my computer walking away, and I got a ping from somebody who was in the European Free Domain Radio call, which I'm sure you can join if you're interested.
And I listened for about 20 minutes as the listeners were discussing.
One listener in particular was discussing his loneliness and the isolation that philosophy had engendered within him.
So I listened for a while, and this is just the tail end of their conversation, and then I jump in with some of my own thoughts, and the A podcast which I think is very helpful.
So thank you so much to him and thank you so much for the invitation to the call.
You feel drained.
It's like, God, you're stressed and you can't really do anything and then you're like, I don't even want to deal with this anymore and I'll go on YouTube and I'll start watching videos or I'll go on Facebook and start seeing if people will think...
I don't know.
Does any of this sound familiar or am I just relating my issues to it?
I just want to see how much it sounds.
I do have a few thoughts if you don't mind me barging in.
Oh, not at all, not at all.
Sorry, I wasn't sure who was talking about loneliness.
Please do. Who was that who was talking about the loneliness?
Mark. Mark, yeah.
Yeah, I guess the question that I would have around loneliness is, and this is what I sort of tried to deal with when I was in a similar situation, is how much of this is just coming from There's three places that I think it can come from.
The first is it can come from the nature of the world.
And what that will be is that no matter how well you were raised, or maybe even if you were raised really well, so if you were raised by really great parents and you had empathy and curiosity and a great relationship with yourself and so on, but you lived in a really freaked out planet, then you would have...
Difficulty connecting with people, right?
In the same way that if we went back to the Middle Ages, we'd have difficulty connecting with people because we just don't speak that kind of crazy, right?
So that's one place it can come from is just, you know, the world, the world itself.
The second place it can come from is some sort of personal failing, like I'm just not out there, I'm just not doing it right, something's wrong with me and so on.
And the third place it can come from Which I think is somewhat unexamined in this convo, which makes sense because it's hard to see.
The third place that it can come from is the parental commandments.
Right? The parental commandments.
And if you have abusive parents, the first thing that they want to do is to isolate you.
Isolation is...
It's not even the shadow of abuse.
It's what's necessary for abuse, right?
So abuse is like a mushroom.
It can only grow in the dark.
And so you have to be isolated from people.
And so what I began to work on in this sort of area, which maybe I've used to, maybe it misses the mark completely, but maybe I've used to, is to say, okay, well, how is where I am serving my abusers?
That's a huge, huge question to ask about your life.
Is this just stuff that I'm programmed to do by my abusers?
And if it is to do with isolation, I'd really suggest looking that way.
Because the stuff in our life that serves our abusers is not a personal failing and doesn't actually come from our advanced status in philosophy, but is simply the programming that we have from the people who have abused us in the past, which is that, but is simply the programming that we have from the people who have abused us in the past, which is that, you know, thou shalt
Yeah, thanks for that.
It's interesting, actually, because that's...
Something that I was thinking of a month or two back, and it seemed to have slipped my mind.
It was just that, you know, I heard somewhere, what was it, the phrase, like, abuse, maybe even you said it, abuse can only happen in isolation, or tends to only happen in isolation, something like that.
And, yeah, so...
Yeah, it was something that was on my mind, and I guess I neglected that.
Like I mentioned earlier in this call, isolating myself has been a recurring pattern for me.
Well, see, even the way you're phrasing it at the moment, I think I would challenge.
You say isolating yourself?
Right, because I'm taking ownership of it.
Right, you're saying this is a habit that I have, and that is not the reality, right?
You know, I have a habit of being, you know, isolation was enforced upon me when I was younger.
I had to isolate myself in order to avoid attack, or, you know, isolation was the necessary component of my abuse, and that's a habit, you know, whatever.
I mean, but not to say I isolate myself, because, well, for obvious reasons, you know, as an advanced crew, we don't have to go through the basics, right?
Sure, sure. Yeah.
Hmm. I've had one or two other people call me out on that.
Taking ownership of it when it's something that's been inflicted upon me.
Because if you get it wrong, if you get that wrong, then it's a continuation of that tragedy.
So if you say, well, I'm isolated because the world is too crazy, so to speak.
Then you have a big problem, right?
Because you can't make the world not crazy, right?
So then there is no solution to the problem of isolation, right?
Once the world becomes sane, I won't be alone.
Well, that's not going to happen, right?
Or at least it's nothing you have any control over any more than I do, right?
Or anyone. And so, if that's the case, then we're kind of doomed, right?
Sure. Now, if it's a personal failing on your part, then you have a lot more control.
I'm not saying there's these clear walls between the three, but it's where we start our focus.
If you say, well, I have a habit of isolating myself.
I'm just, you know, for some reason that can't be explained, I am socially anxious or awkward or I self-isolate.
Then it becomes a personal habit and you have a lot more control over it.
Because it's something that is a, you know, obviously a habit that you can control.
However, if you're taking ownership for something that was in fact inflicted upon you, then you are continuing the abuse against yourself.
Which is to say that that which is inflicted upon me, I'm going to erase the person who inflicted it upon me.
And I am now going to take the blame myself.
For what was inflicted upon me.
Well, all that's going to do is continue the abuse, and because it's taking blame on yourself for that which was inflicted upon you, you won't be free of the sense of isolation.
Right, I understand.
So, which is it?
So, which is it?
Give me a sec.
Yeah, I'm just going to start talking and see what happens.
Hey, welcome to my whole show.
Yeah, so I mentioned that my father has a strong habit of isolating himself, or perhaps it's something that's been inflicted upon him as well, which he's then inflicted upon me.
So yeah, I mean, I totally understand that it's something that...
The first thing you did was to start with an excuse, right?
Sorry? Well, the first thing you did was to start with an excuse for him.
I wouldn't call it an excuse.
I mean, he's completely evil.
I mean, he's a monster.
He's an absolutely vile person, and I would never...
Make, I'd never want, well, I don't know, I mean, is that definitely an excuse, would you say?
I guess I'm just providing. Yeah, you said he inflicted it on me as or because it had been inflicted upon him.
Yeah, I guess that does kind of smell a little bit of excuses.
Just a little bit. Because, I mean, it takes some more choice out of the situation, right?
Sure, yeah, that's true.
So, yeah, I mean, he's inflicted that upon me.
And, yeah, and so, I mean, it's interesting because on the other side of things, I've been, I've had my mother criticize me and sort of, you know, I hate to use this word, but nag me about, you know, not having friends and Not going out and doing things.
I mean, you know, she has explicitly said that she would rather me be some kind of binge, you know, weekend binge drinker.
Yeah, so, I don't know, I'm very foggy on this.
Right. Well, that's good, because, I mean, if you weren't, then it would make no sense if the problem was still there, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it totally serves them.
See, the thing is, even as a child, I've always been very...
I've always had a real...
Just been very passionate and had lots of interest and been very enthusiastic about things, even as a small child, be it a video game or collecting toys or anything.
Later in life, it's been music.
And I've always gone through just little hobbies and things.
So they, on the other hand, have always been...
They're soulless, lifeless, passionless people.
You know, my dad has been on benefits and welfare for most of his life.
My mum was for a lot of it.
Now, that's similar.
Sorry to interrupt you again.
That's close to an excuse as well.
Well, no. Well, let me finish the point.
Please, yeah, please. I'm just noting it.
Sure. Yeah, so they, I think what it is, is they see in me, you know, they're both very, very, even by some conventional academic standards.
I mean, they both dropped out of school, high school.
They're very, very unintelligent people.
Very, you know, they're Yeah, very stupid people.
And so, in a lot of ways, intellectually, artistically, emotionally, they...
I don't know if I would say they feel threatened by me, but I think what it is, is in a lot of ways, I'm kind of like...
I expose...
I'm like a... In their lives, I'm like a light that exposes all of the dark crevices of their lives and the emptiness that it lays within.
And so they, you know, they want to cover that up.
And so by me not fulfilling my potential and not actually, you know, living my life, it's...
It's serving them in the sense that it's continuing their legacy of soulless mediocrity, not even mediocrity, just shit basically.
Yeah, so I can understand how it serves them, for sure.
How do you know that they're not intelligent?
It depends how we define intelligence, I suppose.
Because, I mean, if you've been psychologically mastered by dumb people, that may not be a shining, glowing lighthouse of self-esteem, right?
Okay, I guess...
They have an intelligence...
I'm going to end up tripping over my own feed now.
Because these are more excuses.
You say they're soulless, which is sort of like saying, my dad couldn't play catch with me because he has no arms.
It's not his choice then, right?
And you said they are dumb people, which again is an excuse.
So if I say that they're dumb and they're evil, is that still an excuse, would you say?
Well, I don't think so.
I think that's a contradiction.
Because if you say that my parents are soulless, that they're simply replicating the abuse that they experienced, that they're dumb and they're evil, then I don't think it works all together.
Because you can't be evil if you're unintelligent, right?
So if somebody has an IQ of 60, right?
Somewhere between a chimpanzee and a three-year-old child, we don't grant them moral responsibility in the same way that we do have somebody of average intelligence, right?
Because, I mean, they can't even tie their shoes, right?
Right. So I suppose the more you...
you could almost say on a scale, like the more that you class somebody as stupid and unintelligent, the less morally responsible you're implying that they are, if that makes sense.
So, yeah, it sounds a little bit like you've accepted the sort of definition of morality that is in philosophy, but you're still, like it's like there's a dichotomy, right?
So there's lots of excuses, but at the same time, there's this moral judgment.
And I think this is why the loneliness is continuing, because of this confusion.
Well, I shouldn't even say confusion, because of these defenses.
Which I certainly don't slight you for.
I hope you don't feel that I'm saying anything negative.
It's just stuff that I noticed.
No, no, not in the slightest.
This is very interesting.
I feel as if you're tapping into something, like an aspect of this that I've neglected.
Hey, that's my evil genius, dude.
That's what I do. That's voodoo that I do so well, right?
Yeah. It's been almost two years now that I've been tempted to chime in on a Sunday show and talk about stuff.
I don't know why people are so hesitant.
I love the listener convos.
I love that. I starve for listener convos because not as many people are talking to me now.
I think they all think I'm too busy or whatever.
But anyway. Yeah.
Right. Yeah. Not to change the subject.
So... This, yeah, um, hmm.
I'm intrigued now.
So, it's just, it's difficult.
Let me help you a bit here, right?
So the question around intelligence is very easy to answer, right?
I assume that you had, or I'm going to guess that you had, some conversations with your parents before breaking with them about the past, about your needs, your preferences, your criticisms, and so on, right?
Yeah. And how were they in those conversations?
were they completely baffled or were they expertly defended?
Yeah, I mean, to sum it up, yeah, I guess you could say they were expertly defended.
Yeah, expertly defended. If I were to sit down with my mom and try and play Dungeons& Dragons, she would be genuinely confused, right?
Because she doesn't know anything about how to play that game, right?
There's no board, there's no pieces.
What the hell? Where are we playing?
In our brains, right?
They would not be able to...
She wouldn't be able to follow that, right?
And if she was like that with most things, then I'd say, well, she's not very intelligent, right?
But she would also be like that if I brought up things about my history.
I mean, my half-sister is developmentally handicapped mentally considerably.
And if you were to talk to her about the past and about history and about life, she genuinely would not have a clue what you were talking about.
Does that sort of make sense?
Like, she genuinely wouldn't know.
And she wouldn't be defended about anything.
She just wouldn't know. And that, to me, is not intelligent.
But if when you bring up things with your parents, or anybody for that matter, and they are able to, you know, it's almost effortless, right?
The degree to which they make it difficult or hard or impossible or overcomplicated to get any sort of answer, to get any kind of conclusion, then these people are brilliant, right?
I mean, I say, and I mean it, everybody's a genius and everyone's a philosopher.
And if you ever want to see genius at work, true genius, The genius that, I mean, if we could tap it, we could solve every problem in the world in about three days.
If you ever want to see true genius in the world, simply talk to someone who's done you wrong about your moral objections.
And see how amazingly they defuse and avoid and deflect.
It's brilliant. It's like...
It's like watching a four-year-old kid pick up a sword and suddenly re-enact the fight scene from The Princess Bride or something like that.
Just this blur of incredible fencing brilliance.
Yeah.
I wouldn't underestimate the degree to which your parents are absolutely brilliant and responsible.
Yeah, I mean it's interesting how they – on one hand, yeah, they are perfectly aware and they have these clever defenses set up.
At the same time, it's like there's this conflict within them.
They're trying to deny it, repress it and hide from themselves almost.
And it's driven them to just depression and huge amounts of stress and whatnot.
I guess because nobody's going to be able to accept that they're a corrupt and evil person.
I'm sorry, you just faded out there?
Can you just repeat that? Yeah, I was saying how they...
On one hand, they have these defenses set up, but on the other hand, there's this inner conflict where they're trying so hard to repress and deny their own immorality and their own corruption, and it's just led them to stress and bad health and depression and stuff.
But I guess that's because nobody's going to be able to accept that they are an evil, corrupt person.
But look, functionality problems are a prime defense of immorality.
By not functioning properly, it's a primary defense of immoral people.
Being helpless, being unwell, being...
It's a fundamental defense.
It's a psychosomatizing, which means the physical manifestation of a mental problem...
It's a somatization.
It's probably a better way. It's a somatization of a bad conscience.
And so, you can't get mad at me because I'm ill.
I mean, you know, you've always seen these cliched examples of like the women who, you know, you can't stress me because I have a bad heart, you know?
You can't upset me.
That rings very true.
Yeah, dysfunction, underachievement, endless health problems, problematic stuff.
This is a fundamental defense of immorality, and it's what occurs when you gain the upper hand through getting older, right?
So this is a fundamental flip that occurs with abusers, because abusers always get old, and the victims always get big and strong.
And so, you know, the UPB application of the abuse is, well, fuck you, now I have the power, I'm going to beat the shit out of you, right?
But the evil people, they don't want that to happen, right?
Because they want to be in possession of the power.
They don't want to have the same moral rules applied against them, right?
So, I mean, when I was a kid, you know, backtalk, as it was called, would get me hit, right?
So, as an adult, when I'm big and strong, or even as a teenager, when I was 15 and bigger than my mom, do I then get to say, okay, well, now I'm bigger and stronger, so backtalk from you is going to get you hit.
No, no, no. Now, that can't work, right?
Oh, well, also, you know, backtalk, as you put it, when you are older and bigger and stronger, if you do reason with them and argue back, then instead of violence, you just get, I mean, for me, it would be like this, you know, arms in the air, exasperated tone of voice, just, oh, no, just leave it.
Oh, you know, this kind of thing.
It's just like a brushing off, dismissing.
Right. And of course, if you were to try that when you were being corrected as a child, what would happen?
Oh, well, sure. Yeah.
Right? I mean, you know, when you bring up bad shit your parents did, you get this thing called, well, it was such a long time ago, let's leave it in the past, does it really matter?
You know, what's the use of digging up?
We have to move forward and forget the past and all that kind of stuff, right?
Let's start over. And of course, if you were to say that, right, when you were a kid, you know, like, no, no, no, I know that I did something that you disapprove of, but let's move on.
Let's let go of the past.
Let's leave it behind us and let's focus on the future.
You'd be like, no, no, no, no.
Now we have to go back to the past and figure out who's responsible and what's bad and so on, right?
Do you see the genius that is occurring?
This is not accidental. This is not a coincidence.
Right? Right.
I mean, I do, for sure.
I've had this...
I'm going to be very careful about taking ownership of this, but I was going to say, I've had this tendency to kind of...
I mean, you put it well in the sense that there's this dichotomy where it's like, I've had this tendency on one hand to think of them as these oafish, unconscious drunkards almost, and then on the other hand, these very carefully conniving, manipulative, defensive people.
So there's definitely been or there is a contradiction there for sure.
So, you know, thank you so much for pointing that out.
I'm curious. So, I mean, you say that the isolation continues because, I think you said because of this contradiction?
Well, sure. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
I mean, could you, would you mind speaking a little more about that?
Well, yeah. Yeah.
How close can you be with your wife if you're having an affair?
affair.
You can't be close to your wife when you're having an affair because you have to keep everything hidden from her, right?
Go on.
So how close can you be to yourself if you're keeping hidden from yourself, or rather you have the habit of keeping things hidden from yourself inflicted upon you as a kid, the truth about your history?
Thank you.
Because there's a part of you that knows the truth about your history, knows your parents' moral responsibility and what they did to you.
And there's a part of you, implanted by your parents, That is constantly at war with that true and authentic part of you.
But the weird thing, of course, is that the war can never be acknowledged, which is what it's meant by unconsciousness.
Because the moment the war is acknowledged, it's over.
So it's like two kids kicking each other under the table while pretending everything is fine above the table.
Yeah. So if part of you is like, well, my parents aren't responsible, then you have a problem, and it's a huge fucking problem.
Because the problem is, if your parents aren't responsible, then why the fuck are you responsible?
Why do you have any ownership for anything if your parents don't?
It, you know, takes a sharp stick and pokes it right in the third eye of UPB, right?
Why are you Responsible if your parents aren't.
I mean, if your dad did what he did because of his dad, then why the hell can't you just act out and do what you do?
Instead of doing all this self-analysis and stuff like that, right?
If we're going to put on the jetpack of responsibility for ourselves, it goes on everybody's shoulders.
Everybody's. We can't just wear it ourself.
That is self-abuse.
It is self-abuse to only put the jetpack of responsibility on your own shoulders while taking it off everybody else's.
That is profoundly isolating.
Indeed.
And that's what I mean when I say these...
So the contradictions, the war between the truth of your history and the lies that you were forced to accept keeps you distant from yourself and you can't be connected to anyone if you're at war with yourself.
You can't. You can't hug anyone while you're punching yourself in the face, to use a silly metaphor, right?
But if you have this contradiction, you can't be close to anyone.
Because you are too fragmented, right?
You're like a Picasso painting, not a Rembrandt portrait, so to speak, right?
It's fragments, it's isolated, it's split, it's separated, it's at war, but there's no war.
It's confusing, it's baffling.
And so there is no you that is holistic, that can connect with somebody else.
And that's the purpose of this type of abuse, right?
It's to keep you fragmented, to keep you isolated, to give you the mantle of moral responsibility while letting everyone else off the hook.
But you can never know that.
Yeah, like I, hey, I will take moral like I, hey, I will take moral responsibility for myself.
I mean, to be a happy human being, I have to.
And who wouldn't want a jetpack?
Jetpacks are fun. I will take it for myself.
But I will never take it just for myself.
I will never give a shred of excuse to anybody else.
Of any reasonable...
Average intelligence, or even below average intelligence, if they're smart enough to avoid being pinned down morally, then by Jove, they've got themselves a big stinking heap and pound of moral responsibility, or ton, rather, sitting on their shoulders.
if they know enough to dodge the moral questions they're fully, fully culpable ethically so when you talk to your parents about your history if they did the good old float like a butterfly sting like a bee full on Ali Bob and Weave then fuck it
They're completely morally responsible because if they know how to dodge morality, then they know what morality is.
And they know what the consequences are.
They know how to control.
They know how to bully. They know how to minimize.
They know how to manipulate. So guess what?
Full-on jetpack for them.
You can't play murder ball and say, well, there is no ball.
I can't see the ball. And then just amazingly dodge the ball every time it's thrown at you, right?
If you can dodge the ball, you can see the ball, even if you say you can't.
This is why I say to people confront parents on moral issues.
Because then you can see the degree to which they understand ethics.
And if they understand ethics enough to dodge the questions, then they got 100% moral responsibility.
And in fact, relative to you as a child, They have a billion percent moral responsibility, and you have zero.
See, this is the weird inversal, right?
It's that children take on moral responsibility 100% while giving their parents close to zero, when the exact opposite is true.
Children have no moral responsibility.
Somebody said to me the other day, well, so are you going to dissociate from Isabella if she becomes a statist?
No, because that would be my fault.
Does that make any sense?
Of course.
It's like there's this...
I don't know. While you've been speaking, there's been this...
I don't know. It's like my brain is trying not to rearrange itself or something.
Yeah, I mean, that's incredible stuff.
It's very, very useful.
And it's one of those things where it's like, aha, it's like I... It's like, I already get this, but...
Oh, this is nothing I haven't said before, right?
Yeah. Of course, right? Oh, sure, sure.
And... I don't know.
It's like I can feel or I can sense the parents within me trying to duck and dive.
Well, hey, if you want to do a role play with your dad, I'm totally down for that, if that will help you.
Sure.
I don't know where to start, though.
Well, you would play your dad.
And I may have to dive if my daughter awakes.
Because I don't want you to then have this argument with your dad later in your head and he wins, right?
Right, right. So give me just a bit of the scenario that you talked about your parents with.
Yeah, I just want to say as well that I really appreciate your time.
So thank you. And, you know, of course, when you need to go, just disappear.
That's fine. Well, yeah, last year, July, August sort of time, I was staying with him for a little while.
And I started to bring up some issues.
The stuff that my mum had told me and stuff that I remembered, memories that started resurfacing for me since I started exploring my history and just sort of uncovered memories.
So I would bring up things I don't know.
I don't really know where to start.
I mean, I could give an example of something that I brought up with him, and we could go from there.
Okay, so...
All right, this is kind of brutal.
This is the first thing that comes to mind.
When I was about 15, I'm 23.
When I was about 15, my mum told me about how...
Because my parents split up when I was two, and a year or two later...
She got pregnant by another man who she was in a relationship with and she told me that my father actually threatened them and basically forced her under threat of violence to have an abortion.
Holy shit. Yeah, and I mean she showed me the the certificate of termination or whatever, so I brought this up with him last year and and he he essentially turned it around on to her and he he was kind of laughing about it and saying how what actually happened was she went to the dentist and got an x-ray and that killed the unborn baby and And then it started to come out that he did say some things and he was then mocking them for taking him seriously.
I mean, he has a very... He's had a horrible history, a violent history in terms of inflicting violence on people.
So... I mean, that's an example.
I would bring that up with him and...
I don't know.
I've... I'm not sure.
I'm not really sure where to go from here.
All right. Well, I'll just try talking about this as if I were you.
Okay. So, Dad, this, you know, what Mom has told me about the abortion is really, really troubling to me.
Really, really troubling to me.
According to Mom, you bullied or threatened her into having an abortion.
I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about that.
Well, hmm, okay.
It's hard for me to be as animated as he was.
Go for it. He's there.
He's in there. He's talking away, right?
He's keeping you from people.
Well... Okay. Oh, this feels very strange.
Okay, well, yeah. What actually happened was that she went...
And she... No, it's more shock.
It's like, she actually told you that.
She... You know, this disbelief.
So he would be disbelieving that she told you?
Yeah, yeah. What actually happened, I can't believe she told you that.
What actually happened was she went to the dentist and...
Because she was so stupid, she went to the dentist, got an x-ray, and that killed the baby.
Do you really think that someone would abort their baby because of my say-so?
I'm not an expert in dentistry, but I'm pretty sure that one x-ray, which would be around the jaw area as she's going to her dentist, so they're not x-raying her abdomen.
One x-ray, and they put all this lead around you, so that can't be it.
It has to be something else.
I mean, that's just not a believable story.
So if that's your perception, that can't be the case.
I mean, every time I go to the dentist, they put all this lead around me, and all they do is do one little x-ray up around my head, and one x-ray is not going to kill a baby.
So that can't be it.
Okay, well, at this point, there would be a lot of fog.
It would be changing the subject.
Well, let's do it then. Okay.
I don't think of exactly what would be said.
Well, let's pretend he's fogging, right?
So then I would say, okay, well, let's not go on.
We want to talk about this issue.
So did you know that she was pregnant when she was pregnant?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, sorry, just to go back to myself for a second, what my mum actually told me was that he, the way that he worded it was, there's no way that you're raising another man's son around my, oh, another man's child around my son.
So he was, you know, he was perfectly aware of it.
And so, yeah, I, sorry, to go back to him.
Yeah, well, yeah, I was aware.
And You know, I said that.
Yeah, I said that. Okay, so you said there's no way.
And what did you mean by that?
Well, you know, it's like it's fogging.
Right, right. I mean, did you mean that you were going to do something to her if she didn't abort the kid?
No, of course not.
Well, what did that mean then? Well, you know, it's ridiculous that they would take me so seriously.
Did you not intend, like, wait, sorry, when you say that not taking seriously, did you mean that you meant it as a joke?
I mean, it sounds pretty serious to me.
Right, but who would abort their child under my say-so, under someone's say-so?
Well, no, no, no. See, this was a threat, right?
It's not just a say-so.
Look, I'm not saying that mom has no moral responsibility and you were like some puppet master who ordered her around and she just did whatever you said, but you're minimizing what you did.
It's more than a say-so.
Like, you didn't just say, it would be kind of nice if you didn't have the kid, right?
Right, but again, that would be ridiculous.
Who would do that?
Who would abort a child?
No, we're not talking about mom at the moment.
We're talking about you.
I want to understand what went on during this pretty significant event.
So, did you threaten mom in any way?
I mean, over and above what you've sort of said.
I'm trying to do this what I would not based on how the conversation actually went.
They did again, it was more evasion and fogging.
They, you know, the family hate, this is him talking again, the family hated me from day one, from when they first met me.
No, we're not talking about dad.
Like, I appreciate that. I'm not looking at the backstory.
I'm not looking at mom's family or mom.
I'm really just trying to look at you.
And the reason that I'm doing this is because when I was a kid, right, if I did something that you guys didn't like or that you thought was wrong, I never got to say, well, my friend's said this, or the teacher said that, or I was, you know, I can't believe that they took me seriously when I threatened the other kid for his lunch money, right? I was responsible when I was a kid, when I was six, seven, eight years old.
I was responsible and I didn't get to make up excuses based on what other people, right?
So this is, I'm just trying to, you know, if the rule applied to me when I was seven, obviously it applied to you when you were in your thirties or forties, right?
I mean, you can't have more moral responsibility on a seven-year-old.
than you do on an adult, right?
So I need you to respect the rules, which I think are pretty good rules that you held me to when I was six or seven or eight years old, and just tell me about what you did without reference to other people.
Yeah, I'm really coming up against a ball.
And I can tell you what would probably happen next.
All I'm hearing is him...
Is...
The conversation would probably be over.
Yeah, what would happen next is rage, right?
Right. Or just physically leaving the conversation, right?
In one way or another, leaving it, yeah.
Yeah, and if you were to persist, you would get rage, right?
Sure.
Right.
But again, I think rage would be a way of leaving it.
Yes, absolutely.
Rage is a coward's way of avoiding a topic.
Yeah.
A necessary topic.
Right.
And there's a kind of helplessness.
When you when you use ethical arguments against people, there's a kind of helplessness they experience of rage.
Like if you pay back a guy who's paid you in counterfeit bills with his same counterfeit bills, he's going to feel really angry.
Right.
But he's going to be unable to tell you why he's angry.
So he's just going to use passive-aggressive emotional punishment in one form or another, right?
And so when you ask parents or teachers or priests, if you ask people who are adults to live by the same moral standards that they inflicted upon you when you were a tiny little kid, they get really angry.
Because morality is used by people in authority To bully and control those they have power over.
I mean, it was invented as a means of control, not as a philosophical thing.
The actual act of taking morality, universalizing it, and applying it to those in authority is unthinkable.
It's not what it's for. Like, the mugger doesn't come up and hand you the gun.
The gun is for him to take your wallet.
If you get the gun away from him, that's not how it's supposed to work, right?
And that's how we know the genius of everyone.
Yeah.
And your dad knew exactly, with laser-like precision, he knew exactly how to handle this conversation, right?
He tried a variety of strategies that were brilliant.
Just brilliant. Right?
So he knew that he could try just a lie.
And then, when the lie, like the radiation or the x-ray killed the baby, right?
When that lie was exposed, he just switched to something else without expressly saying, I lied.
Brilliant. Minimized it, right?
Yet, of course, if you're a kid and you're caught in a lie, do your parents just let you change the subject as if nothing happened?
Oh, hello.
Oh, sorry. I wasn't sure if I dropped off.
Did you hear that last thing? Alright, you're here.
Yeah, I heard of that.
Great. So he knew to try a lie, and when that lie was exposed, he just went on to some other story without any acknowledgement of the lie, right?
Right. Brilliant.
A wonderful strategy.
And the next thing he tried to do was to blame your mom.
The next thing he tried to do was to minimize his own actions by calling it something like a message on my say-so.
Like just a little suggestion. I just made a little suggestion.
And then I'm sure he would then claim to be offended by this line of questioning.
And then he would try to imply that you were crazy for being obsessed about this long-ago incident that doesn't matter anymore.
Why is this important?
What does it matter? Right?
Yeah. And then he might accuse you of acting out your mom's...
Oh, so your mom put you up to this, right?
Is your mom still hung up on this?
She's not taking any responsibility for her actions.
She's putting you up to blame me, and blah!
He'd get all the bullshit about that, right?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Or, you know, and literally you and I could go on all day going through all of the various misdirects and fogs and evasions in Swiss speak that he would come up with, right?
Oh, sure, yeah. I mean, it's just so obvious.
It's so predictable. And this is why I'm saying that he's a genius.
It's brilliant. It's like there's this childlike naivety within me that just finds it so hard to believe that the people in my life or that were in my life could possibly be so evil.
It's not naivety.
The children within us are never naive.
Uh-oh. I'm so sorry.
I think my baby's waking up.
Let me just see if she's still awake. She might go back to him.
No, look, the children within us who experienced our parents firsthand and very vividly are never naive.
They're simply not allowed to speak. .
If that makes any sense.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, also, a small child is not going to...
Right, right. Yeah, I was just saying that a small child wouldn't be able to face the truth of its parents or of its primary caregivers' corruption.
Well, sorry, I think that's true, and I've certainly made that argument.
I would refine it slightly, though, to add that it is the parent who is unable to see his own corruption.
Could you expand on that?
Well, if your dad was able to see his own corruption, then he would be able to change it.
Right, so the one thing that's true of immoral people consistently is that when they're angry, everybody else is 100% responsible.
Right, yeah. And when someone's angry at them...
They are not at all responsible.
Right. And so if your dad was able to see, like if he had been himself horrified at his own impulse to bully your mom into having an abortion, if he'd have been like, that is not a good thing, that is a bad thing to do, Right, right.
So, you know, he's been convinced that somehow that's the right thing to do, that he's somehow justified in doing that.
I've never really done anything that, I mean, I've never done anything like that, of course, right?
So I don't really know, at an organic level, what the relationship is with somebody who's done something truly awful.
Or usually a whole series of things that are truly awful.
Whether they know that it's awful and they're just avoiding it or whether they simply don't know anymore, like it's all just lost and foggy.
I think that they do know because they're so good at avoiding getting pinned down on it.
So I think they do know.
But, you know, the tragic thing is that parents with good justification remain incredibly confident that they'll just be able to spew out some baffle gab bullshit and their kids are going to go, okay, well, I guess I'll wipe your ass when you're old, right?
Because they've got a whole society out there that keeps hurting children back to their parents, right?
You've got to be the big person, you've got to forgive, but he's your dad, right?
He did the best he could.
You've got to forgive, rise above, go back, go back, right?
Sure, sure. Because if you don't mind, someone else has to, right?
I even heard that from my mother.
You know, he was violent to her and all of this stuff and what I told you about the abortion.
And even she has said to me, but he's your dad.
Even those words have come from her mouth of all people.
So, yeah, I totally understand that.
Right, right. So, it is the parent who can't...
Like, who is naive about his own evil is your dad, not you.
You know it full damn well.
But your dad wants to keep it fogged.
Because it's, you know, follow the benefit, right?
Who benefits from you not clearly seeing your dad's true moral nature?
It's not you, right?
Oh, sure. It's your dad.
Yeah. So, I wouldn't want you to confuse your inner child with your inner dad.
Right, right. Because, again, that's blurring the lines of accountability and responsibility, and that's to say that your inner child cannot see immorality.
But if your inner child truly could not see immorality, you wouldn't have to keep him unconscious, right?
He sees it damn clearly.
Better than you, better than me, I bet.
Because he still remembers what it feels like to be in the power of that kind of person.
Right. And your mom is not talking about your dad, by the way.
She's talking about herself.
Oh, sure. Yeah.
Absolutely, yeah. It's so sickening.
It is. It absolutely is.
Now, once you have this kind of moral clarity, then I think you will not be nearly as isolated.
Because you will have rejected the silence and secrecy and splitting that occurs from abuse.
And you will have emerged whole and emotionally available to yourself and therefore to others.
You won't be lost in a fog of endless empty arguments with yourself.
Of bouncing like a pinball from one randomized conclusion to another.
From One defense, from parental defense, to your defense, to parental aggression, to your reaction, to your aggression against your parents, to their defensive reactions, just bouncing around like a ping-pong ball in space, right?
You'll be rooted in the truth.
And from there, if you can't find companions, you can at least become a leader.
True that.
I'm getting this physiological stuff going on like I'm...
I'm kind of sweating and my eyes are wide and I'm sitting up straight and I feel kind of very, very mild fight or flight thing going on.
Yeah, that's the walls coming down, baby.
That's the wholeness moving in, right?
That's the de-splitting, right?
That's the unity of the soul.
That's when you don't have to spend your entire life keeping these wild animals separate.
But you become an ecosystem rather than a zoo, right?
A zoo, everything's separate and it's a huge amount of work, right?
Think of the amount of human labor it takes to keep a zoo running.
How much human labor does it take to keep a jungle running?
Well, none, right?
It runs itself, right?
So you keep everything separate.
It's a huge amount of work keeping everything, shovel the shit out of the cages, feed everyone and all that.
But if you just take down all the walls, everything mingles.
There's still conflict, but you don't spend your whole life managing all this shit, right?
That's a good metaphor, I tell you.
Yeah, that's not too bad.
Not too bad.
Not too shabby.
Well, I certainly didn't expect to be having this conversation today.
um I I'm incredibly grateful.
This is very, very useful.
Like I mentioned, I've wanted to talk to you on a Sunday show or something for so long now, and I've had this huge, huge...
I had this resistance to talking to you for...
I have had this resistance for such a long time because I imagined that I would be really, like, just completely foggy and stuttering and completely lost and have these, like, you know...
I've heard your voice for so many, I guess, hundreds of hours, and to have you responding to me is like, whoa, okay, this is kind of a head fuck.
Right, so you're of the philosophy that you should really only stop and ask for directions if you're not lost.
Because you say, well, if I talk to you, I'd be really confused and foggy, and it's like, but that's when you need to talk to someone, right?
I'll ask for directions when I'm within sight of my destination.
No, no, no. I'm incredibly grateful.
My pleasure.
If you want to return a favor, if you could write a post on the board about why you didn't want to have a conversation, I think that would be very interesting because I bet you're not the only person Who's in that boat?
Sure, sure. All right.
Listen, I better toodle. Yeah, a great conversation.
Thank you so much. I will send you a copy of this if you like.
And I'll talk to you soon. That'd be great.
Thank you. Take care.
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