All Episodes
Previous Next
Dec. 27, 2010 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:20:38
1812 Inner Mom Confrontation - A Listener Mecosystem Conversation

A role play example of talking to a parent about family history.

| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
So I posted a question on the board about trying to get some feedback from people who have had sort of conversations with their family where they were confronting them over some of the stuff from their childhood.
And I want to make sure that when I have a conversation with my mom that I get out of it as much as possible.
And I kind of expect that I might only kind of get one shot at it.
Like I'm not really confident that there will be follow-up conversations.
So I want to make sure that I'm well prepared for it.
And to that end, I've been, you know, writing down questions I want to ask and sort of figuring out what my goals are for the conversation.
But I also want to be able to sort of Simulate the experience beforehand with other people.
And so the input that I was looking from people is if they've had these kind of role plays before, how do they get their friends familiar with the parents so that it was sufficiently like the conversation that you're going to end up having that it will help prepare you.
So do you have any feedback on that point?
No, I think that's great.
How is it that you would like to start?
Well, I don't know.
You usually like to get to the point, so did you want to just do the roleplaying itself, or did you want to talk more about how to prepare for roleplaying?
No, I'm happy to jump straight in.
If you can just give me a little bit of background about the major issues that you think will come up in the conversation.
Sure. So, just to give you a little bit of information about my mom, she's middle-aged in her late 50s to early 60s.
I was married once and divorced a couple years later, and then ended up marrying my father.
She was a child of a lot of kids.
She has a bunch of siblings.
Um, and things that, two things that I think will come up in the conversation, which were sort of, um, serious criticisms or the criticisms that she made, she leveled at me most frequently when I was a child. she leveled at me most frequently when I was a One was that she would say that I was really selfish.
This was sort of her fallback thing to say when she was getting really angry and rageful.
And the other thing that I think might be a good thing to bring up in the conversation, in addition to other questions, was where she would compare me to herself as a child.
So she would say like, You know, why don't you want to help us out more?
Why aren't you more proactive about doing chores and making things easier for us?
When I was your age, I was always trying to help out and, you know, she was the sibling that took care of all the other siblings and, I don't know, restored some kind of order to the house or something like that.
And she has a temper.
Most of the time, she's really good-natured, but as soon as she starts getting upset about something in a serious way, she is very much about the name-calling and yelling, raising her voice. And what sort of names?
Let's see. What's that?
Yeah, so the selfish thing was a big one.
She would often, when I would try to negotiate with her when I was younger, and if she was getting angry and I was trying to kind of reason with her, she would accuse me of lawyering with her.
So not names like, you know, asshole.
She would call me a brat.
Um, so kind of like relatively PG-13 kind of, uh, uh, names mostly around kind of being ungrateful and, I don't know, like small and sniveling and that kind of thing.
Right, right. Okay, sorry, go on.
Um, yeah, those are the sort of names that are coming up for me, um, so far.
Okay, and, um, What is it that...
What's the ideal outcome to the conversation that you're going to have?
What's... Well, the ideal.
What's the best that you can get out of it?
Well, the absolute ideal, I suppose, would be that she comes to realize all the awful things that she has done, that she...
Kind of magically whips out this really sincere apology and pledges to go into a totally different kind of therapy than she's done in the past and really sympathize with me as a child and just completely reform herself as a person.
I certainly don't expect that kind of thing to happen.
So I think probably a more realistic goal is for me to To sort of catch up in terms of my emotional understanding of the relationship to where I intellectually understand it.
Right, okay. And let's say that that does occur.
We can say how improbable that is, but let's say that does occur.
There's a downside to that too, right?
There's a downside to which one?
Well, there's a downside to if she has a revelation and gets that she did things that were wrong or bad or whatever, right?
There's a downside to that, right?
Okay, so there's a downside, right?
Did you know what the downside is?
No. Well, the downside is, let's say that you have a conversation with her for an hour, and she realizes that she had done things that were bad or wrong as a parent, and now she has opened her heart and changed, and is going to be a great person from here on in.
Right, and then at that point I'm going to feel like, well, why are you doing this just now as opposed to 20 years ago?
Right. Right.
Right. And I'm not saying that to...
I don't want to undermine the conversation.
I'm just saying that because I think it's really important in any confrontation, it's really important to know what it is that you want and to be clear about what it is that you want.
Because if you're not clear and the other person is manipulative, you're going to get manipulated.
So, that's sort of what I mean.
Before we jump into the roleplay, I mean, I assume you're going to roleplay your mom, I'm going to roleplay you.
I just want to know what it is that you're hoping to achieve out of the conversation.
That's something that's realistic, something that's potentially achievable, something that isn't going to...
I don't think you want to have a confrontation with someone and then walk away and spend a sleepless night brooding about it and then the next day say, oh man, now I'm more upset.
Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So that's sort of what it is.
That's why I'm asking you what the ideal situation is.
Let me ask you this another way.
If you were to estimate...
It would take your mom, if she's really dedicated and really focused on becoming a better person or a better mom or a better family member or a better parent or whatever, if she's really, really focused on doing that, how long do you think it will take her to achieve meaningful progress, significant progress in that area?
Realistically, probably about 300 years.
Okay. That is your realistic estimate?
Yeah. I mean, based on...
If I'm thinking in terms of how long would it take her to demonstrate good behavior to make up for...
No, no, no. Sorry. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.
What I mean is that...
Not to demonstrate and overcome all of the bad stuff in the past.
What I mean is to make significant progress towards...
Opening her heart and being more honest and not name-calling and not being defensive and all of that kind of stuff.
The general progress that we all have to struggle to achieve in this kind of realm.
How long do you think it would take her to make not progress that erases the past, which I guess can't ever really happen, but progress that you feel is satisfying and makes your time with her better.
I haven't consciously thought about that question since I don't think that it's very likely.
I would say...
Well, it would probably take a while.
If I think about how long it's taken me to make just as much progress as I've had without having ever abused a child, I started getting interested in FDR stuff probably a year and a half to two years ago or something like that.
And she has a much steeper hill decline, so at least five years probably.
Okay. And I think that's – in my opinion, I think that's realistic.
That's sort of the number that I had in my head.
So we're either both right or both wrong.
But I think that's reasonable.
And I mean that's if she applies significant effort.
So how many hours a week have you been – Either in conversations with yourself, with others, or journaling, or in therapy, or reading stuff, or listening to podcasts, or doing stuff that is involved around self-growth.
How many hours a week have you been doing that for the last year and a half?
I'd say probably 15 hours per week on average, maybe.
Yeah, and I think that's a good estimate.
I mean, not that I'd be able to tell, but just based on my experience, the experience of other people that I've known, it's a part-time job, right?
Right. And it's a pretty grueling, though very exciting, part-time job.
But growth is a part-time job.
And it's no less, right?
You can't do it in an hour a week.
And so it needs to be a significant investment.
It's like if you're 400 pounds and you need to lose 200 pounds, educating yourself and changing your habits and dealing with the issues that cause you to get overweight, that's all significant time.
It's a part-time job to lose that weight, right?
Yeah, for sure. So, the expectation is that if you have a very productive conversation with her, And she begins to invest,
let's say, 10 to 15 hours a week in self-growth that your estimate is that in about five years, there will be some progress that will make some significant difference.
Right. And how do you feel about the way that we're looking at this issue?
Sorry, can you just repeat that one more time?
How do you feel about this, the way that we're outlining these expectations?
I'm not sure yet.
Okay, then we need to pause here because you're not actually, your heart isn't open to me at all.
And I don't think that we can go too much further in the conversation if...
It's not open to what it is that we're talking about.
I mean, you seem very closed off to me.
I'm experiencing you as very distant and very factual, noncommittal, if that makes sense.
Like we could be discussing groceries or the weather, right?
Yeah, yeah, right. And that's, look, it's not a criticism.
I'm not sort of saying it's a bad thing.
I'm just pointing out that if we're going to sort of go into the furnace of your future, I think that we need to go hand in hand, so to speak.
Makes sense. So, let's go back to how you're feeling.
Let's see.
Business-like.
Kind of focused on the facts at hand, but not...
Feeling much in the way of emotion other than some anxiety about the call and also I'd say like a little bit of leakage of sort of dread thinking about the topic.
Right. So if I had to, it's going to be an odd question.
I'll ask it anyway.
Who in your head is benefiting from your current detachment?
Or to put it another way, whose interests would be harmed if your feelings were available to you?
Well, my mother's are, and I would say the parts of me that I've sort of internalized from my parents certainly don't want me to go down that road either.
And why not?
Because.
Well, it's.
It's a it's a it's a it's a road that my parents would consider very selfish and ungrateful.
And it's a road that for much of my life would have led to a tremendous amount of loneliness since I didn't have anyone else in my life other than my parents.
Thank you.
That's interesting. I don't know if you noticed that flip over.
Right, so I was saying whose interests would be harmed, and you were saying, well, my parents wouldn't want me to, and then without a pause and without any change in tone, you then talked about your own feelings or fears of loneliness as a child?
I don't know if you noticed that.
No, I didn't, because when you asked me why that was, I just immediately assumed it was the last thing that you said.
I'm sure it's an unconscious thing, though.
I'm sorry, I didn't follow that.
Well, you asked me whose interest would be harmed and I said my parents and those are the parts that I internalized for my parents.
And so when you asked for an explanation, I immediately started talking about the parts but skipped over talking about why it would be against the interests of my parents.
No, what I mean is that what you said was that my parents wouldn't want me to go down that road.
Because it would have led to whatever, like conflicts and so on.
It would have led to a bad place.
And then you began to talk about your own experience as a child of fearing loneliness.
Do you remember that?
Yeah, yeah. And there wasn't, you know, so...
If I'm in a conversation and I say, well, Bob said this, and he said hamana, hamana, and then I said this, hamana, hamana, hamana, there's usually some change of inflection when you switch persons.
So to delineate it for the listener and for yourself, but that wasn't here.
And I'm just, I don't know why that's important, but I just wanted to pause and mention it before we continue.
And I'm sure we'll figure out why as we go down the road.
I totally see your point now.
Yeah. Why do you want to have this conversation with your mother?
Is your mother or both your parents?
Well, my father's no longer living.
So it's just my mom. Okay.
All right. So why do you want to have this conversation with your mom?
Well, I think that I want to be as generous as...
Let me back up. I feel like I'm in a place where I really feel like I don't want to have a relationship with her, but I still have a lot of A lot of ambivalence about that.
And so I want to be as generous as possible and honest to myself about my experience of my relationship with her and just see what happens.
That's basically it.
I'm going to tell you that I don't believe you.
And that doesn't mean that you're lying to me.
It doesn't mean that you're wrong about anything.
I'm just telling you that I don't accept what it is that you're saying at the moment.
Okay. Because if you're not having any emotions around the topic in conversation, it's hard for me to believe you when you say, I want to do this, I want to do that, because that to me indicates a desire and an emotion.
But if you're feeling very clinical and detached and business-like, as you said, then I don't see how you can have emotions like, I have a strong desire to, I feel this ambivalence to, I want to, right?
Because those are all feelings and emotions.
But in the way that you're communicating with me, there really aren't any emotions.
So it seems to me like you're reading something like, okay, well, the checklist is this, and so I have to do that, you know what I mean?
As opposed to a genuine desire that you have, if that makes any sense.
Yeah, it does.
And not for any rational reason, but when you're questioning my reasoning or my desire, there's a part of me that feels angry about that and frustrated.
Good, good. Okay, good.
Good. So we're getting some feelings.
Okay, so what is it that you feel?
Like, well, I'm giving the right answers.
Why are we still right?
Let's just move on. Is that what you mean?
Yeah. Yeah, it's like, what more do I have to do to convince him that this is what I want to do?
How do I summon the right kind of tone of voice to just get over this part of the conversation?
Right. Right.
Right. Okay. Now, we can certainly get over this part of the conversation, if you want, and go straight into the roleplay.
I mean, I think I'm already meeting your mom anyway, so we can, if you want.
I'm certainly not hung up on pausing on this part.
I just wanted to get a bit more of the lay of the land, but I certainly am happy to plunge straight in, if you want.
Okay. Let's, if it's okay, let's just try to focus a little bit more on the feelings and see if we can work that a little bit more.
And yeah, I think this totally is like a feeling that reminds me a lot of my mom, this angry feeling.
Right, right.
So the angry feeling is something to do with let's move on.
Yeah, I mean, it reminds me of, you know, times when I've had conversations with her in the past, getting into some of this confronting stuff.
And, yeah, there's a lot of anger and frustration about, like, why would we want to talk about stuff that's happened so far in the past?
Let's just focus on what you're doing wrong in the moment.
And the you're being you, right?
Right. Right, okay.
Right. And it comes out as an emotionality or as irritation, is that right?
Yeah, right.
And what would you like to say now?
Let's see.
Still this angry part.
Yeah.
Why does your mom want to get to the roleplay?
why does the mom within you want to get to the role play what does she think is going to happen in the role play that she wants to get to The first thing that comes up to mind is just to kind of lay blame where it ought to be.
Sorry, can you be a bit more clear on that?
Yeah, to make accusations about wrongdoings at the other person.
Oh, so she wants the confrontation of the role play because that's different for her than this kind of exploration?
I'm not sure how to answer that one.
I'm sorry. Well, let's pause.
So your mom wanted...
To get to the role play, is that right?
Like the mom within you. Right, right.
Why does she want to get to the role play?
What's the benefit of that? Because she didn't like to sort of asking questions in a non-confrontational way and pointing out a lack of emotional connectivity.
That was sort of irritating.
So she wanted to move on to the confrontation, right?
Yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, do you want me to just tell you?
Well, I don't know.
The first thought that's coming to mind is like that's the mode that she's comfortable with is that when you talk about issues, it's all about confrontation and name-calling and yelling and stuff like that rather than making sort of reasoned observations about true things.
Right. That's her element, right?
That's where she can shine, so to speak, right?
Right, right.
Right, okay.
And, all right, let's do the roleplay then.
Okay.
Okay. Do you want me to...
No, I'll start and you can just be your mom.
Okay. Mom, I really wanted to sit down with you and I appreciate you taking the time.
This is going to be a challenging conversation, but one that I genuinely believe is really necessary, really important for me, and I would appreciate it if you would hang in there for a little while while we talk about stuff that's important to me.
Okay, well, I'll try my best.
I mean, it's so difficult to do this over the phone.
I wish we could just do it Well, I would...
I want to have a conversation.
I mean, when we were kids, and...
You would have something to discuss with me.
You wouldn't write me a letter, right?
You'd sit down and we'd talk about it, right?
So I'm going to assume that that's not completely outside the bounds of the way in which you like to communicate because that's how we communicated when I was a kid.
So I know that you have at least some level of comfort in doing that.
So that's what I would prefer.
Look, I said that I do my best.
I mean, there's no reason for you to start lawyering me about, you know, the...
What it was like when you were a kid or whatever.
There's no reason to do that.
I'm sorry. And you've used this term before, this lawyering thing.
And I guess we might as well start now.
Because I'm not sure that I understand what law...
I feel irritation when you bring the term up, but I'm not sure why.
And I'd like you to just step me through what it is that you mean by lawyering.
Because I don't really know that I understand the term.
I'm not sure I ever did. But if you could help me to understand it, that would really help me to understand more where you're coming from.
Are you just being sarcastic with me, or do you just pretend not to understand what I'm saying?
No, I don't.
I know what the term lawyering means.
It means to act as a lawyer, I suppose.
But I'm not sure what it means to you and what it is that I'm doing that is generating that.
So no, I mean, I really want to know what the term means to you, just so that we don't get cross signals, right?
So we're talking about the same thing.
Well, I mean, you've done this since you were a teenager, right?
We have this conversation and you're trying to use all these...
I'm sorry, Mom, I don't mean to interrupt, but I'd rather you didn't talk about me and what I'm doing.
I just want to make sure that I understand what you mean when you use the word lawyering.
Rather than what it is that I'm doing, I just want to understand what you mean by the word.
Well, when someone's trying to, you know, try to use all these kind of big...
Big thoughts and big words and stuff like that, treating the other person like they're dumb and trying to manipulate them that way.
Okay, and what were the big words and big concepts that I was using that you felt was indicating that I thought you were dumb or something?
What were the words or the concepts?
Just so I can avoid them, and I don't want to provoke you in this way, I just want to make sure that I understand.
I don't know. Let's just move on.
Let's just move on. I don't feel too comfortable at the moment moving on because I feel like you brought up something that was, I guess, critical of me.
And then I asked you for some explanation and you really wouldn't provide it for me.
And then I asked for an example and you won't provide it to me.
That actually makes me feel quite angry.
To me, I experienced that as frustrating my story in my head.
I don't know if it's true or not. It seems kind of manipulative to me.
Well, I feel angry when you say that.
Right. But this is my conversation about my experience of you, right?
So if you say that I'm lawyering and then I ask you what that means and you don't give me much of an example.
Oh, you do. Sorry, to be fair, you did give me an example that I'm using big terms or big words.
And then I ask you for an example of that so that I can understand where you're coming from and you won't give me any.
You can understand why that might be kind of frustrating, right?
Why is this your conversation?
Why is it only that your feelings are important?
Mom, I have to interrupt you again, because you're not actually answering any of my questions.
Okay, what was the question? If we're going to have a conversation, if every time I ask you a question, you just come back with something else to ask me a question, we're not going to have a conversation.
And that's fine. If we don't have this conversation...
That's not the end of the world.
I mean, it's a problem for me, and I would really prefer it if we did.
But I would really appreciate it if you would actually just answer the questions so that we could move on.
Okay. I'm sorry.
I'm getting all worked up here because of the phone thing.
Can you tell me what the question was again?
I'm trying to remember what it was.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Well, if you can't remember, we can just move on.
What's the next? Well, just give me a moment.
I will try to remember.
Oh, yeah. Can you understand that it might be kind of frustrating if you get criticized and then you get asked for an example?
Like, you criticized me and I asked you for an example of what I had did and you wouldn't provide me one and refused to answer and then said, let's move on.
Okay, so you want an example of...
No, no, no. Can you understand that that might be frustrating?
Yeah, I think so.
Go on. You know, if someone's asking you a question and they're not answering that, I can see how that would be frustrating.
No, that's not what I said.
What I said was that if you criticized me and I asked you for an example and you wouldn't provide me one, that that might be kind of frustrating for me.
Oh, so you're frustrated because I wouldn't give you an example?
I've already said that, yes.
But my question is, can you understand that it might be frustrating for someone to experience that?
Yeah, that sounds frustrating.
Go on. Well, what more do you want me to say?
I agreed with you. Well, tell me about how you think that might be frustrating and what you might experience in that situation.
You know, just see if we're on the same page.
Okay. I guess if...
I don't really understand this question.
Can we just move on to another question?
I'm trying, I just don't understand what you're getting at.
What don't you understand? Well, I don't know what you want from me.
I've already told you what I want from you.
Would you like me to say it again?
I guess. Sure, I would like you to answer my questions.
Honestly, of course, right?
I mean, I assume that honesty doesn't need to be said.
No, I know that.
But the other question about making a criticism and feeling frustrated, do you want an example?
Well, let me give you an example, right?
Because I can see you're having trouble with this.
So if I say, Mom, you're really selfish.
And then you say to me, Well, what does selfish mean?
And I say, Well, selfish...
It's when you use the word, I don't know, when you do something and I give you some definition, and then you say to me, well, what did I do that fits that definition?
And I won't answer the question.
Can you understand that that's frustrating?
Yeah, yeah, I get that that's frustrating.
I'm not giving you an example that says why it applies to you.
Right. Okay. So good.
Good. Okay. So if I do that to you, I'd like you to stop the conversation and tell me that I'm doing that to make sure that I don't do that.
Is it okay if I do that to you as well?
Since we both don't want to be frustrating each other, right?
No, we don't want to be frustrating each other.
So that's okay. Yeah, it's okay.
Okay. Okay. There was a criticism that you had of me when I was a kid that I remember being repeated on a number of occasions.
I'm not saying it never fit, but I just want to make sure that I understand the values that it came from.
Because you said that at times I acted in a selfish way or I was selfish.
Does that ring a bell at all?
Yeah, like you, you know, you never wanted to do chores, you didn't thank us all the time when we did something nice for you, you know, like I'd make you a big, I don't know, birthday cake or something like that, and you'd just sulk about it sometimes, or, you know, all kinds of things.
I remember that. Right, right.
Do you think, and when did you first notice this starting in me as a kid?
Um, I don't remember exactly, but it was really bad when you were a teenager.
No, I'm just, but when I was a kid, and I don't mean the exact day, but I mean, obviously, I wasn't doing it when I was one year old, and I was doing it when I was 13 or 14.
I'm just wondering when you began to notice it in me as a kid.
I mean, I wasn't a selfish baby, I assume, right?
No, I guess not. I don't know, maybe 10 years old.
I mean, I don't really remember.
I just remember it being really bad when you were a teenager.
So, are you saying that you don't remember it really occurring before I was 10?
Yeah, I don't think so.
I'm sorry, just to break the roleplay for a sec, is that fairly accurate?
Yeah, that seems pretty accurate.
Okay. And what do you think happened?
What's your thoughts about what happened to me or what happened around that age that I began to become, as you called it, selfish?
I don't know. I don't know.
I mean, I think just...
Some kids are just kind of, you know, they get selfish.
Maybe the, I don't know, the friends that they hang out with at school are not good influences.
I don't know exactly.
Some people turn out selfish, that's all.
Some people turn out selfish, you mean some children?
Yeah, I mean, there are lots of selfish children.
Do you think that there was anything in my home life that may have contributed to that?
I'm not trying to ask a leading question.
I'm just genuinely curious about what you think.
Do you think there was anything in my home life that may have contributed to that selfishness?
I don't know. Probably, probably, but it doesn't mean that you wouldn't have been selfish anyways.
I mean, I think that's just the kind of...
Oh, okay. So probably, what sort of stuff are you thinking about?
I'm not trying to get myself off the hook.
I'm just genuinely curious because I don't remember as much about when I was 8 or 9 or 10 as you do because, I mean, you're older.
So what is it that you think might have contributed?
Or did you say probably did?
I don't know.
I mean, I'm not like a child psychologist.
I don't know how to answer that question.
I'm sorry, but I'm sort of frustrated and annoyed now because you answered that question when I was 10 by calling me selfish, and now I'm asking you, Well,
I knew you were selfish at the time, but I don't know what was going on at home that could have made you more selfish.
But you just said probably.
Well, yeah. There was something at home.
There's probably everything that you...
Every personality trait that you have is impacted in some way by what's going on at home.
I'm just... I'm not an expert, so I couldn't tell you what it is.
Well, do you have any ideas?
Is it just wild speculations?
Well, I don't know.
know maybe we maybe we just we gave you too much stuff or we weren't strict enough about you know doing stuff around the house and contributing right right right Well, I don't really know what else to say in this conversation.
Are there any questions that you want to ask me?
Well, what is the purpose of bringing that up?
Why are you asking about the selfish thing?
Well, my purpose, Mom, was to attempt to have a conversation.
But it's not possible.
What do you mean it's not possible?
It's not possible because you won't answer any of my questions.
You just give me these non-answers, these evasions, these scenarios, these misdirections.
There's no possibility of having a conversation with you about my history or my thoughts or my feelings because it's just like pounding my head against a wall.
Alright, this is exactly the kind of, you know, this is what I'm talking about with the lawyering.
I just answered all of your questions.
No, you didn't answer my questions.
You really didn't answer my questions.
Well, you said that probably there was this, and then you said, well, no, I'm no child psychologist.
I don't know. And you said, well, maybe we did this, and maybe we...
You didn't give me any kind of honest answers to my questions.
You don't even remember when it's...
I had to pester you like four times to get you to say when you began calling me selfish.
Right? There's not a possibility of having a conversation because you are clearly, at least my experience is, that you're unwilling to...
To talk about this stuff, which is fine.
You don't have to talk about it.
I'm not going to corner you and make you talk about it.
I can't, obviously, right?
All I can do is say that I really want to talk about this stuff and see how you respond.
And the response has been very clear to me.
So if I can't remember every little detail of your childhood...
Now, Mom, I did not ask you to remember every little detail.
Did I at any point say to you the phrase, every little detail?
No, but you're trying to...
No, so no, no.
Then you need to apologize to me for mischaracterizing in a negative and destructive way what it is that I was saying.
I'm not going to apologize to you.
That is an unpleasant thing to do to me.
This entire conversation is unpleasant.
I don't know how you could even accuse me of that.
But you just completely lied about what it is that I was saying.
I asked you for some very general things, like, when did you first start to notice this?
And I said, give me rough estimates.
And I said, do you have any general theories?
And then you come back to me with, I can't remember every single little detail, when I never asked you for a single little detail.
That is an unpleasant thing to do.
Okay, okay. I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. I can see you're getting upset about this.
What are you sorry about?
I'm sorry for saying that it was every little detail.
You didn't ask me for every little detail.
You're asking a more general question than any every little detail.
Right. And this is why I'm saying, I don't think we can have this conversation at this time.
Because I'm just, it's too frustrating.
It's too annoying.
Obviously, you don't want to have the conversation.
I'm certainly getting that feeling myself.
So I have no desire to continue at the moment.
Okay, well, what are you going to do if we don't have the conversation?
Are you just going to stop talking to me?
Or what are you going to do?
Well, look, the consequences of not having this conversation are completely immaterial.
Because you either want to have this conversation with me, or you don't.
Now, if you don't want to have this conversation with me, that's just information that I need to have as a human being in a relationship.
If you say, well, if the consequences are really negative, then I will have a conversation with you, then I don't want to have that conversation with you because I don't want to force you to do anything.
I don't want to pressure you to do anything.
I just wanted to explore about whether I could have a conversation about some aspects of our history together as a family and see what the result was.
The result for me has been very clear, at least at the moment, and I just need to mull that over.
Okay, well, I don't know.
Is there another... I don't know.
I just... I was getting so worked up again about the selfish thing.
I mean, is there another question that you could ask me that I can answer?
Because I want to help you.
I mean, I really want to have a real relationship with you and to understand what you're feeling.
Yeah. I must say that there is not a part of me that accepts as true what it is that you're saying to me at the moment.
I'm not saying that you're lying to me or anything like that, but after the experience of the last half hour of trying to have a conversation with you, I genuinely can't accept what you're saying about wanting to help me and wanting to have a conversation.
I can't, because, you know, as you've always taught me, you know, you don't judge a person by what they say, but what they do.
And so I have to look at what it is that you're doing rather than what it is that you're saying, if you don't mind me putting it that way.
Well, I don't know.
Like, I've been working really, working hard on this stuff.
I've been, I listen to some of those podcasts from that site that you like, and I've been talking about it with my therapist, and just really thinking about, like, how much, you know, I miss talking to you, and I really want to understand how you're feeling.
I don't know why you, I mean, I know that...
Do you know what I had? I'll tell you one thing that we can have a real conversation about right now, Mom.
I'll tell you one thing. You don't want to talk about this stuff.
I do. You block and misdirect and don't answer and evade because you don't feel comfortable with this conversation.
Now, when I was a kid, you called me selfish, which meant I put my needs above your needs, right?
How dare you have called me selfish at the age of 10, when right now, in this conversation, you are putting your needs above my needs, my legitimate needs, for some honest conversations about our history.
I'm so angry right now, thinking about all the number of times that you called me selfish, when selfishness is exactly what could be used to describe your actions in this conversation.
That makes me angry that you would label me so many times as a selfish person when you are just blocking all of my attempts at honest communication by putting your needs, your discomforts ahead of my genuine desire for some sort of connection and some sort of openness and honesty.
I think that is selfish. - Well, who are you to call me selfish I mean, you're the one that doesn't call his relatives on holidays.
You know, your grandmother sent you checks for Christmas for year after year, and we had to chase you down with a phone just to talk to her and talk to your aunt and your cousins and your whole family that loves you.
I mean, who are you to call me selfish?
I'm not sure what you mean by who am I to call you selfish.
I'm sure I follow that.
I wonder if you would be using this kind of tone with me if your dad was here.
All right.
Sorry, the tone where I respectfully ask you to explain what it is that you mean.
I didn't call you any names. I didn't bring up a litany of everything that you've ever done.
I just asked you what you meant by that phrase.
I mean the tone where you're asking these sarcastic questions and calling me selfish and saying how dare you and all this.
I wonder if you'd be using that kind of tone if your father was here.
I'm not sure what that has to do with our conversation at the moment.
He's not here. Right, so let's get back to our conversation.
Do you understand when I say...
That for you to block topics that you find unsettling or uncomfortable is putting your needs above mine.
I have a desire to talk about these things.
You have a desire not to talk about them.
And you're choosing your preferences.
You're putting your preferences above mine.
Yeah, that's true, but other times when we're talking and I ask you...
No, no, no, no, not other times.
We're talking about just this time.
We can get into other times, but let's try and stay in what's happening in the moment rather than bringing out the Christmas list of problems past, right?
Yeah, I don't want to talk about these things.
I'm trying. I know that you want to talk about them, but it's just so hard.
Look, and I appreciate that, and I appreciate you telling me that.
I really do. I really appreciate you telling me that.
I feel my heart thawing already, because to me, that's a very honest thing to say, and that we can talk about.
So what's hard about it for you?
What is so unpleasant about it for you?
Like, help me to understand.
I really do, and I mean that with all respect.
I really do want to understand what's so hard about it for you.
Well, I just feel like I was just such a...
I must just be such an awful mom that there would be a million things that I did wrong and that you don't love me and we can't just have a pleasant conversation every couple of weeks.
I mean, I just, I must have done such an awful job.
Okay, so if I bring up things that I have that are problems, your perception is then that you did, I think you said something like a million things wrong or did just such an awful job in general, right?
Well, yeah, I just, I feel awful about that.
Awful about what? About, you know, all the things that I didn't do right the first time.
And what are those things?
They may not be things that I even think are a problem, but I'm just curious what it is that you feel was deficient.
Well, I mean, I know your father was really hard on you.
Sometimes he would tease you, and there was even some times where he was drinking.
He stopped that, but he, you know...
He can be really harsh on you sometimes.
I should have done something to get between you two.
Like what? Well, I don't know.
You were always fighting with each other.
I didn't want you to, but I didn't know how to get you guys to stop.
You just knew how to push each other's buttons.
What age did you first notice that we were fighting?
How old was I? He would tease you a lot, even when you were younger.
Like how old? I want to say 10 again.
I don't really remember. I mean, I remember that there was a lot of fighting when you were a teenager.
But, yeah, I know he teased you even when you were younger than that.
Like, when? How old?
Like, about 10 years old.
Huh. I mean, it's interesting to me, I mean, that...
I mean, I don't mean this sarcastically.
I mean, it's genuinely interesting to me that, like, earlier than 10...
There doesn't seem to be many memories.
Well, before that, I mean, we just got along pretty good.
And then, you know, you just started becoming a young man.
Wanting to rebel against her parents and coming up with all of these ideas and reading books and all that stuff.
I think we got along a lot better back then.
We would go on nice hikes together and we would go on trips on the weekends and I would take you to your violin lessons.
It was a lot easier back then.
So, in your experience, the conflicts that we had as a family only really began when I was around 10?
Yeah, around there.
Did anything change?
Because, I mean, what do I know?
I'm 10, right? Did anything change in the family outside of me just going from one digit to two digits?
Did anything change in the family as a whole that you think might have affected it other than just me hitting 10?
Yeah. I mean, did anybody lose their dad lose his job?
Did he drink more? Did he drink less?
Did he... I mean, was there any sort of death in the family?
Was there anything that changed outside of just me?
Because, I mean, I don't know how it could have just been me, if that makes any sense.
He's like, "I just turned 10 and then boom," right? - Well, I don't know.
My job was really hard that time, and your father, he had all these back problems.
Do you remember that? How he had all these, he had to have neck surgery and he was in pain.
Do you remember that?
It was really bad and he was really stressed about that.
Right, so he was in constant pain and your job was very stressful.
Yeah, well, you know what it's like at a high school with all these kids, dealing with all the kids.
It's just...
Well, the kids are okay, but it's really the administration.
It's just...
That's when I started getting bad at school with the administration.
Right. Right.
So, I mean, there was some stuff coming in from you and Dad, some stresses coming into the family, right?
I mean, again, I'm not saying I was a perfect kid, if there is even such a thing, but...
There was some stuff that was coming out, that was coming into the family from outside.
You know, I guess if we count sort of dad's back problems as from outside.
Because, you know, I mean, the thing is, like, you know this, because obviously you were a kid in a family.
But when you're a kid in a family, you don't see what's coming in from the outside, right?
Because the family is kind of like your world.
It's your whole thing. And so I'm sort of trying to go back and sort of understand...
I think it's an important thing to do, to understand what was mine and what was the family's.
Because when you're a kid, the family is everything and you don't really, as I said, you don't have a sense of anything that's coming in from the outside.
So for me, it's important to sort of circle back and to look at I mean, the blame thing, I mean, that's an easy game to play, but I'm really interested in just trying to figure out the factors, the pressures.
To me, this is a very important conversation to have just about knowing who I am and knowing who you are outside of just being a mom, right?
I mean, I know that you'll always be my mom, but obviously you can't be my mom anymore the way that I was when I was 10 or 15 or 18 or maybe even 20 or whatever, right?
But, you know, I'm I'm getting up there now, right?
And I want to understand the family that I grew up in, not just from the point of view of a kid, but from the point of view of somebody who understands a more rounded picture.
Does that make any sense? Yeah, I can see why you would want to understand all that.
And that's information that I can't get, except through you.
I mean, Dad's dead. And, you know, nobody else was there who was an adult.
So, I mean, you are, you know, the sole repository of this golden chest of 360-degree history, if that makes any sense.
Okay, yeah. And I want to help you with that.
I know it's important to you, and so I want to help you with that.
Well, I appreciate that, and...
It may be of value to you as well.
I mean, I think that if you have this thing in your head where if I say, look, I have a problem with this stuff that happened in the family, that you then feel like the ground is opening up and we're going to fall into endless disrepair, that's kind of high-stakes poker, right? That makes it very tense for us to have these conversations, if that makes any sense.
What do you mean? What do you mean?
Well, it's like... If you look at our relationship as like a series of dominoes, like they're all stacked on a wall or something like that, and I push this first domino, which is just a question about the past, or maybe even a criticism.
I mean, Lord knows, look, you had criticisms of me as a kid.
I have criticisms of you as a parent.
I don't think those two things are unreasonable, right?
You voiced your criticisms of me as a kid, right?
I was selfish. I was a brat and this and that, right?
I promise I'm not just going to call you a brat or a witch or whatever, right?
So you voiced your criticisms of me as a kid.
I have some criticisms of you as a parent.
And I think that there's no parent alive who's not going to, if their kids are honest, have that conversation at some point in their life.
And I think that parents and children who don't have that conversation end up with a really lopsided relationship that is of less and less value to both people as it moves forward, which I think is a real tragedy.
I think it's a real shame. But if you look at our relationship, like it's a series of dominoes, and if I just touch that first domino, it all comes crumbling down and it's all over and so on, then it's real high stakes for you, for me not to push that first domino.
I don't view it that way.
I don't view it that way.
I view it more like...
I don't know, you're exploring a cave or something like that.
I mean, you're just shining a light in some places and sometimes you'll see some beautiful stuff and sometimes a bat will come out and, I don't know, whap you in the face with a wet wing or something.
But I view it more as an exploration.
But if you view it like, I just touched this domino and whack it, whack it, whack it, whack it, whack it, they all come down and it's all over, then for me to bring up any problems about the past means that It's all over.
If you accept one of them, or if you even are curious about one of them, or listen to it, then it's...
Right? Do you understand? Then it's like the whole thing comes collapsing down.
And that's not how I view it, I think.
Well, I don't know.
I mean, how can you have criticisms about my parenting?
If you don't have any kids of your own, maybe...
You know, 10 years from now, you'll have your own kids and you'll find out that you have to do all the same things.
Well, look, let me ask you this question, because, I mean, I hear that objection a lot.
Let me ask you this question. Did you ever have any criticisms of Dad?
Yeah. Well, how could you have criticisms of Dad?
You never had a wife. But you see, you don't, right?
You don't have to have been a husband to criticize a husband, and you don't have to have been a parent to criticize a parent.
Let's... Like, you weren't me, you weren't a 10-year-old boy, and you never will be, but you were able to criticize me when I was 10, right?
So you don't have to... That was her age before.
I remember what it was like to be 10 years old.
Well, but not a 10-year-old boy, and not a 10-year-old boy...
So I'm just saying that I don't think that you have to have children in order to have some issues with your parents.
And I just don't think that's the case.
I think. Personally, I think that's a way of just throwing the problem into the future and saying, well, let's not talk about it now.
Let's talk about it when you have kids.
And then when I have kids, it'll be well, but we didn't have any problems with you until you were 10, so you have to wait until your kids are 10.
It's just a way of throwing this problem into the future, which I don't think is...
Personally, I think that you're just trying to avoid the topic.
And I'm not saying you're doing this consciously or maliciously.
I think that you're just trying to say, well, let's wait until you have kids and they're 10 before you can bring out many criticisms of me.
And I think that's not reasonable or fair.
Well, yeah. I mean, I have criticisms of my parents, too.
Everyone has criticisms of their parents.
So we can talk about that.
I don't mind that.
Well, no, let's stick with being honest, right?
Because you do mind it. And I completely understand.
Look, when my kids sit down with me in 20 years and have the same conversation with me, I'm not going to like it either.
So let's really...
Because I think this conversation, for me, it changed when you said, I don't want to talk about this stuff, which to me was a very honest thing to say.
Because before, you know, just in my experience, you were kind of like just...
Avoiding and so on.
We need to stick with the honesty.
I do want to talk about it.
I'm scared of talking about it.
It makes me frustrated and upset sometimes when we talk about it.
But I also know that it's really important for us to talk about it because we're two people who've had a multi-decade relationship.
And it's important to talk about your experience of the relationship, my experience of the relationship, and So that we don't just let time drift us apart, right?
Because when you were my mom and I was your kid, we spent all day together.
As you say, we went hiking.
We did all these things together. We all went on holidays together.
We don't have that proximity to keep us together anymore, mom.
We live far away.
We're doing this damn conversation by phone, right?
Let me just finish one second, then I'll listen all you want.
So we need to have something that's going to keep us together.
Rather than just we're in the same house because we're not in the same house anymore.
So I'm not saying that we have to spend the next 30 years talking about the past or talking about our experiences of each other or history.
But there's things that I need to know so that I can have a relationship with you that's different from the one that I had as a kid.
Because I'm not a kid anymore and you're not a mom in the same way.
And so I want us to make sure that we have a foundation for a relationship moving forward.
But that has to be where I can have some questions and you can have some, because you, I mean, or some criticisms, right?
Because you've always had some criticisms of me.
And if we're going to keep moving forward where it's a one-sided thing in certain areas and I've got to sort of remain pretending to be a kid, I can't see how that's going to be satisfying for either of us, however difficult it may be in the short run.
And that's it for my speech.
Now you can tell me what you think.
Well, I think that's all fine and nice, but a grown man doesn't really need to have a close relationship with his mother or whatever.
I don't think you need to be having all these...
Deep conversations with your mother.
I'm sorry, have you been a grown man before, Mom?
Well, I was married to your father.
Oh, and did your dad...
I'm sorry to interrupt you.
I know I just said that. Did dad have a good relationship with his mom?
Like a close relationship with his mom?
Well, yeah, they got along.
I mean, he would visit... No, no, no, not got along, but were they close?
Yeah, probably too close.
I mean, he talked to her...
Practically every day, it seemed.
But did he ever criticize her or ask about the past?
Or did he have that kind of openness with her?
No, I never heard him say anything bad about her.
So I'm trying to do something different.
And I'm not saying that Dad was a bad guy.
But, you know, like all of us, the man had his deficiencies.
And I think one of them was probably not being as honest as he could be with people who had authority over him, like his mom.
It's just a possibility, right?
So... I think that judging what I'm doing by what dad didn't do is not exactly the right approach.
Well, it's not just your father.
I mean, I don't know any other men that are adults that are, you know, talking to their, complaining to their mothers about their childhoods and making criticisms and all this.
I mean, you just, you know, you just visit on the holiday or whatever, have a phone conversation here and there just to, you know, let your parents But isn't this great mom?
I mean, shouldn't you be exquisitely proud then that you raised a man who could really think for himself and not just follow along with everybody else?
Who could have his own desires and preferences outside of just what everyone else did?
I mean, isn't that great? You know, when I was a kid, they always said, well, if everybody else was jumping off the CN Tower or the Brooklyn Bridge, would you do that too?
Right? So I'm just taking those lessons that you taught me, which is to think for myself and to not follow the herd and not succumb to peer pressure and go my own way.
So I think you should be proud of that.
That's a compliment.
Yeah.
Anyway, that's as far as I think the role play should go at the moment.
Um, uh, So just tell me what your thoughts and experiences were of that.
That was fantastic on your part, by the way.
She is a challenge and a heart.
Yeah, I thought it went very well.
I think I got a lot out of...
Particularly the first half of the conversation where there was quite a bit of conflict.
I think that in the second half I was noticing that you were being a lot more sympathetic and diplomatic than I would feel like being in that conversation.
Not because I think I necessarily lack that quality, but just because I don't have that much Sympathy for my mother's, you know, kind of crazy feelings about stuff.
Well, I think, look, obviously, I don't have the history with your mom that you do, right?
So, but what I would, I mean, I was being pretty genuine insofar as you said that you wanted to be as generous as you could possibly be, right?
Yeah, that's true.
And so I was just going with that instruction.
I am a programmable RTR bot, right?
So I was just going with that.
Look, I was fully aware that your mom was not...
had not gone 180 degrees, right?
Right. But...
But I did want to be as honest as possible.
Now, I also knew...
Look, I had to stop there because I didn't know what the hell else you're going to ask her because I don't know your history, right?
So I had to stop there. My sense would be that when you would start to ask her, she would clam up again and redirect and all that.
And then you'd have to either...
You'd have to then just be honest with how you were experiencing that and what you were thinking about that and so on, right?
But at least the generosity had been there that if she did then clam up after a sort of warm and positive introduction to the topic, that you wouldn't feel anything like, oh, I blew it or something, right?
I guess the only caveat that I would throw in there is that at lots of points during that conversation, she probably would have broken down into bawling and kind of implicitly demanding sympathy for the fact that she was crying and all worked up and stuff like that.
And if she did that, then my suggestion would be...
The crocodile tears don't move anyone except people who are drowning in self-pity, right?
So if she had crocodile tears or manipulative tears during that, then, you know, you're patient and you say, okay, well, I'll wait till you feel better and can we continue and all that kind of stuff, right?
But don't get drawn into, you know, that pit.
Right. So, but anyway, go on with the Just to go back to the positive stuff, I was very interested to see the places that you chose to be very assertive and And I guess,
you know, like sort of strategically confrontational.
There are places that I would not necessarily, it wouldn't have necessarily occurred to me to...
Well, sorry, you're sounding a little bit like I was playing a chess game.
Like strategically, I was really just trying to be honest with my thoughts and feelings.
Yeah, no, no, I understand that, but I think it's just...
Well, but that's not how you would describe it.
It's not a criticism. I'm just saying that's not how you were describing it at all, right?
No, no, that's true.
That's probably unfair. I was just...
No, no, again, I'm not criticizing.
I'm not saying you're not being fair.
What I'm just saying is that it is...
It wasn't a strategy on my part.
I mean, that genuinely was what I was experiencing.
Right, right, right. Like, I wasn't like, aha, here's the time where I play the assertiveness card.
Wait, wait, I'm going to change to a bit of anger.
Now, a bit of comedy, you know?
Like, I wasn't trying to pick a lock there.
I mean, that was my genuine experience in the conversation.
Right, right. And I think that the assertiveness, if you call it that, it did have some effect in terms of, like, I can't get away with that stuff sort of thing.
Right. Right. But anyway, sorry, go on.
Let's see. What other experiences did I have in this conversation?
It was weird trying to be my mom for a while.
Oh, you were great at it.
Holy crap. I mean, talk about staying in character.
That's genius. It really was genius.
I think so. Yeah, so I guess that's all that's coming to mind in terms of my experience.
I'm sure that I'll get a lot more out of it upon second listening as well and remembering all the stuff that was in the conversation.
I don't know if you'd mind if other people wanted to share their thoughts about the conversation because it's a little hard to be objective when you're doing your mom and I'm doing you, so to speak.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
If people wanted to unmute, if they had anything that they wanted to add.
Otherwise, I'll just close off with a few thoughts.
Well, yeah, look, I mean, she's a challenge for sure.
And I really got a sense of like, this is an old school mom.
You know, like I'm the boss.
I just want the form of a relationship.
I don't want the content.
And I am an expert at blocking topics that I don't want.
I mean, she was a challenge, for sure.
And yeah, I mean, nothing I did was strategic.
Like, I wasn't saying, well, I don't want to have this conversation because I wanted to get something out of it.
I just, at that point, I genuinely did not want to continue the conversation.
Like, I just had no desire to.
And that's really important, too, right?
Like, the real-time relationships thing is, I don't want to talk to you anymore.
Not as a strategy.
I mean, if you'd have said, well, fine, it would be like, well, that would be the end of the roleplay, right?
And I sort of half expected that that would be the end of the roleplay, but you, I guess, as your mom, decided to take a different approach and so on.
I do think that your mom was still in the phase of trying strategies, if that makes any sense.
Not in the phase of genuine communication?
Yeah, not particularly close, no.
Not particularly close?
Like, she's not doing it.
I haven't really gotten any genuine communication from her.
Well, that's not true, but...
I don't know if I can take you out, but...
Like you said to your mom that you didn't want to talk to her through her anymore on email, and then she emailed you back and emailed you again.
What did you think was genuine about that?
No, it's just that she's been listening to the podcast and stuff like that, but she's not respecting you at all.
Yeah, so I guess what I was thinking is that I've gotten lots of manipulative communication from her, but not any genuine thoughts.
Right, right. Even when I said that it was so hard to answer the questions or whatever, that I was probably being a bit liberal with how she might kind of express that thought.
Okay, fine.
Right, right, right.
Yeah, so I mean, but the reality is that if people are trying strategies, you have to not try strategies in return, because that's the great temptation, right?
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Right, but just to genuinely be in the moment and try and talk about what your thoughts and feelings are.
Like, I mean, when your mom was, like, going on about how you were selfish at the age of 10...
I mean, and she was being incredibly selfish in the conversation.
I mean, I thought that was outrageous.
I thought that was just outrageous.
I mean, what an astonishing thing to do, you know?
So yeah, that stuff was all certainly very vivid for me.
But yeah, I mean, you have to make sure that you don't, or try as best as you can to make sure that you don't get drawn into counter-strategies.
Because if somebody wants to play chess and you just want to have a conversation, try not to get drawn into playing chess.
Just try and have that conversation.
That's my only real suggestion about that.
Is there anything else that you wanted to add?
I guess overall, was it helpful or useful?
It was very helpful.
I think that I will probably try to have some more...
Conversations like this with some friends, and I think it will be really helpful to...
Do I want to talk more about being unemotional?
What do you mean? My perception of the conversation was that he was being strategic, like he was playing chess, and then in the beginning expressing your feelings.
Sorry, who's the he?
Is that me or the role-playing mom?
When you said he, what were you referring to?
You're talking about me? Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I'm saying that you, not your mom, just you were being pretty, like, detached from, like, analyzing conversation.
At the beginning. Even at the...
Yeah, during the beginning and then after the roleplay, it was pretty detached.
Sure, sure. So I think we need to talk about that.
I'm not sure what to say about it.
Look, your mom is a tough person to have.
Your roleplay mom or whatever, in my experience, is a tough person to have feelings around.
Right. Because her feelings are so overwhelming to her that there's no room.
Yeah, I remember when I was younger, if we had some kind of conflict and she would start raising her voice, I think with both my parents, if I raised my voice back at them, then it would spiral out of control and end up being really awful for me.
So from a relatively early age, I figured out I need to deadpan and just completely neutral voice, try to stay as detached as possible because otherwise the situation would escalate.
Yeah, I totally get that.
And so, I mean, that to me is a perfectly valid and healthy strategy that you had.
Right. But, I mean, it's not going to serve you in the future, but it sure as hell served you in the past.
Right, right. So, yeah, I just wanted to mention that, yeah, that is something you're going to have to work on, but the real challenge is just going to be staying present in the conversation.
If you can, you know, do 20% of that, I think that would be great.
Great. Yeah, it's certainly a goal of mine and something that I'll be thinking about as I'm going into the conversation.
And I think listening to this will help me, give me some ideas about how to do that.
Yeah. I hope so.
I hope so. Well, congratulations.
Good job, I'm telling you.
It's amazing what's in there for us, eh?
Yeah, it is. All right.
Well, take care, guys. I will talk to you soon.
I'll send you a copy of this course to listen to, and you can let me know whether you'd like to post it or not.
Okay, great. Thanks so much, Steph.
I really appreciate it. Take care.
▲
Export Selection