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Oct. 26, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:19:57
1492 The UPBs of Love (convo)

He did end up asking her out... :)

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Yeah, so just for those who are dipping in and out, this is a bunch of amateurs talking about life, thoughts, philosophy, no accreditations anywhere.
So that's our standard disclaimer up front.
And go ahead.
Oh, yeah, I sort of wanted to have that conversation we had on Sunday first because I had some nervousness around bringing this up.
Because it's something we've gone over before and apparently we haven't gone over it enough or gone on over it from the right angle or from...
Maybe this is a different situation.
Media is like sticking your head.
Go on. Sorry, it's just somebody joined and it was me playing in the background.
Okay, so...
Where was I? I lost track of what I was saying.
I thought this was about a girl.
Yes, it was. Okay.
It is. And if I could just maybe tell you the backstory, because that way you understand what's sort of going on, or not going on.
Sorry, what you're saying is that for the first time that you and I have talked, you would like feedback or ideas with understanding?
Okay, let me just make a note of that.
All right. Go for it.
Okay, so when I was looking for apartments, when I originally came here to Philadelphia, I found a couple of places, and one of the places was where I lived, of course, where I live now.
And the person that I was to meet and who showed me Around the hotel, the apartments, on the upper floors of the hotel, is the hotel manager, or one of the hotel managers.
I really found her attractive in many ways.
I felt great talking to her on the phone, originally, in Houston.
She seemed so nice and just so easy to talk to.
And this was one of the key things my therapist was telling me about, telling me to look for, and just the overall initial feeling of being around someone.
And then when I was around her here, her showing me the apartment, and I was with Greg.
I'm sorry. I missed the original part.
She worked in a hotel. How did you meet her again originally?
Or how did you talk to her originally?
She's the hotel manager here.
This is like half hotel, half apartments.
So the apartments are on the upper half of the building.
Okay, I got it. Sorry about that.
Go ahead. So she showed me what my apartment would look like and then showed me to the in-construction version of it.
My apartment was under construction at the time.
My original first impression of her, both on the phone and in person, was warm.
I felt giddy and I felt like I could talk to her and I felt easy.
I could ask her questions and I didn't feel nervous about asking her questions.
That was my first, second and third impression of her.
And sorry, was this by phone or in person?
Both. But first you talked to her by telephone, right?
Right, to make the appointment to look at the apartment.
Sorry, I'm just trying to understand.
So when you say that you sort of felt giddy and so on, was that when you saw her in person or was that beforehand when you were talking to her on the telephone?
That was after I saw her in person and while we were being shown around.
And the conversations that you had with her prior to meeting her in person, were they relatively short?
Were they more long? How did they feel?
They were short and relevant to looking for the apartment.
I was just making an appointment and that's it.
But just my first feeling just from talking to her...
I call people on the phone and sometimes I feel like they'd rather be somewhere else.
I didn't feel that with her and I felt like she was really excited that I was calling.
I was just surprised because all the other people I talked to on the phone about apartments that they had on Craigslist and everywhere, I just didn't get that same St.
Ville is like, do they want to sell the apartment?
Right, right. So...
No, it's like if you've ever been at a party, you're trying to talk to someone, and they're looking around the room, it's really distracting, right?
Right. So you felt that when she was talking to you, she was actually talking to you.
Like she was actually in the moment, listening and talking to you.
And this can be at a very simple level, right?
It can be asking someone for the time or for directions.
But you felt that...
She was really talking to you and listening to you in a way that is sometimes, well, is often kind of rare, right?
Right. I felt visible.
I felt just there.
And she responded so kindly to me.
And then when I was with her in person, I felt warm.
And she was just so kind and soft-spoken.
But she was soft-spoken in a...
Very sweet way.
I mean, just everything about her was so sweet.
And she was not the type that I would normally be attracted to, but she was certainly...
Sorry, you mean physical type?
Yeah. I mean, she was a little on the real sort of...
I don't know why, but...
She's not the...
That's fine. It doesn't matter.
We all have types, right?
So that's fine. But you felt very comfortable chatting with her and asking questions and so on.
Right. Her smile was bright and her eyes were bright and everything about her seemed bright.
And how old is she, roughly?
I couldn't exactly tell.
Closer to my age.
That's why I said roughly. Yeah, roughly my age.
Okay. I'd possibly, you know, maybe in her late 20s.
I doubt early 30s because I found out later that I'm trying to gauge, like, how old is she?
So I started asking her questions, and this is later, once I had already moved in.
I went to her with some, you know, problems with the apartment, and I... And luckily, I had some problems to go to her with, because I'd find excuses to go talk to her and go, oh, well, I need this fixed in there, and the key's not working very well, or something like that.
And so I'd find reasons to go talk to her.
Not like I really needed any, because I found her easy to talk to, but...
I would do this and then I would go up in the elevator with her and I found it really easy to start asking questions but in this particular situation I was on my lunch break and sort of in a hurry but I had time.
I had like five minutes to talk to her and ask her questions.
Find out if she likes her job, what she's doing.
She's coordinating a wedding party that's coming in and I asked her, well, do you enjoy that?
Did you major in hotel management?
She said, yes. She majored in that.
She got a degree in it from Penn State.
I was like, well, when was that?
Trying to gauge her age.
She said, oh, that was back in 2006.
I assume that she's already graduated.
She's been out of college for a while.
I don't know if she took her time, so I still don't know her exact age.
It's certainly probably in her late 20s.
So I didn't get any messages from her that said she was unavailable.
Like, she didn't say, oh, my boyfriend did this or something.
Because, you know, normally if I'm showing that much interest or asking them any questions or smiling big at her and every time I walked past her I would smile and she would smile and And this went on for, well, the few times that I got to see her because we're on the same schedule, but it went on for two weeks.
And I was waiting for the next time that I caught her while she was at work.
Yeah, I caught her at work.
When she fell into the Bengalis tiger trap I had outside underneath my welcome hat, right?
When I caught her on my schedule finally allowed for me to get home in time for her to...
Yeah, yeah. No, I got it.
Yeah. And so this was after the time after and it was like a delay of a week because I could never seem to...
I'd arrived and she had just left and I asked the front desk guy if she was working the next day and I tried to get there in time to see her and...
Find a reason to talk to her.
I kept feeling like sometimes I have to find a reason.
I have to have an excuse like something has to be broken in the apartment to have a reason to walk up to the desk and ask her a question.
Sorry, just for those who may listen to this later, I think it's fairly true that women will tend to be enormously flattered if you actually wait for them in the backseat of their car.
That really says, I care and I'm good with locks.
So take it seriously.
But anyway, please continue.
So, yeah, and I didn't want to be stalkery or anything like that either.
So I didn't want to come off as like waiting for her while she, you know, got off of work or anything like that.
So I just, I wanted to catch her at a good time to where I could find another opening to ask more questions because I'd Talked to Cory and Greg and Nash about this.
Before I ask her to dinner or anything like that, I want to find out more about her.
Try and get her to start talking about where she's from.
Where does she live here?
Is her family here? What did she grow up as?
Maybe she'll mention whether or not she's a hardcore Catholic or not.
Right. Something like that.
So that I can not find that out after I ask her to dinner.
Because if I do, and then I end up having to reject her, well, she's the hotel manager, and I live here.
Yeah, no, man. Talk about taking some high-stakes dating.
That's very exciting, but go on.
Yeah, I wanted to not take that risk, and I wanted to kind of avoid that.
So I wanted to try and ask more questions like I did the day before or the few days before.
And I just couldn't seem to find the opportunity.
And when I tried one time, I just sort of blew my load of questions.
I'm glad you finished that sentence.
But sorry, go on.
Because that may be why she's not that available to you.
Sorry, I have yogurt in my shorts.
Anyway, sorry, go on. I really should carry that in a packet.
Yeah, I had all these questions thought up, you know, what I can ask her, and I just sort of blew them all at once.
Because I could have. Absolutely.
No, no, I think I understand.
And thank you once more for the entirely vivid imagery that I feel should be backgrounded with 70s disco music and over lighting.
But anyway, go on. And so, I got...
When I did that, I felt really nervous.
That was the first time around her that I felt anxious.
And like, I... Felt like something was off or something was...
I felt like pressure or stress or just some anxiety.
You weren't able to get this connection?
No, I didn't get the same connection with her and I don't know that...
And I had all these theories like maybe she was busy, maybe she was...
Maybe she's unavailable and not interested, and maybe she does have a boyfriend.
Sorry, I think you must have just connected a little bit there.
I must have missed a couple of seconds.
Did you get a chance to talk with her again?
Because the last I heard, you were trying to connect, but you just missed her every now and then.
Oh, sorry. I skipped a part.
Let's see. I didn't get a great response during that blowing my load of questions.
I felt... I felt anxious in asking her these questions.
I felt just sort of rushed or like she was just not interested in talking to me.
It didn't feel the same, whatever it was.
I'm so sorry.
People just said that my audio got bad, so I just checked the connection.
So you hadn't, and I apologize for missing this bit, so you had had trouble connecting with her, and then you did connect with her, but it was kind of weird, in terms of just meeting her and being able to talk with her?
Right, in terms of just stopping there while she was at the front desk and saying hi.
She did smile and say hi, but I felt...
Like I was intruding.
I felt sort of...
Yeah, I understand. No, I mean, I think everyone...
Sorry, I think everyone's been in that kind of situation.
You know, like you're chatting friendly with someone and things...
You know, maybe it's romantic or maybe it's not even romantic, but you're sort of chatting friendly with someone.
And then what happens is the next time you talk to them, they just...
They seem very distracted.
And in a sense, you feel like there's this glass between you, right?
Right. Right. And so I went upstairs, and I think I went to the gym.
And I waved at her on the way out, because I pass the front desk every time we go out.
So when I came back, I realized, oh, she's still there.
She must be working late tonight.
And so I had been to the store, so I had to come upstairs and unload all my stuff.
And change clothes.
And then I think I was going to go meet Greg or something.
But on the way down, I wanted to sort of catch her there again and try to say something else.
Sorry. And how did you feel when you were trying to say?
And what was your motive for trying to say something else?
Extraordinarily anxious, sort of.
I said, so you're working late tonight?
And it was as if she didn't even hear me.
And I could swear I was being loud enough.
Right. But when she did respond and I asked again, I just sort of felt...
I mean, it just didn't go anywhere.
Oh yeah, I understand.
Yeah, yeah. And then I just sort of felt...
Really sad, and I left.
And I felt just like, okay, she's not interested in me, despite all the smiling, and maybe I'm just a customer, and she doesn't want to...
I had all these reasons in my head about why it could have been that she wasn't interested.
Sure. And I can come up with a million of them, and they still wouldn't be the right answer.
or I don't know.
Right, right.
So I'm...
This is very different than the girl that I told you about before that I worked with.
Right. Because when I first met her, I was very anxious right away.
Right, right, right, right.
So this is like...
in reverse.
Right. Okay, and have you talked to her since?
I did pass by her again since.
And she smiled and waved.
And so I thought, well, okay, so she's one of those hot when I'm interested.
No, she's like, what do you call it?
Cold and hot. I guess hot and cold.
Not... Not a response of when I'm actually showing interest, when I'm making an effort, but when I withdraw and stop paying attention to her, then suddenly, you know, what happened?
She's interested again.
Right, right.
That could be... Or she appears interested again.
Right. I don't know. Right, right.
And of course that says a lot about her too, and that she didn't say...
Anything, like, then, like, excuse me, I'm so sorry, I'm busy, can we talk later?
Anything like that.
If she were interested, she would have said something like that.
Right. Or if she really were genuinely wanting to talk to me, and she couldn't at that moment, when I tried to, then I would think that she would have said something.
Okay.
So what you're saying is that you would like her to be a lot more honest with you than you're being with her.
Oh.
Sorry to be abrupt, and this is not at all critical, right?
Because what you've said to me is that you've tried to pursue things very indirectly.
Yes. Right, so you're coming up, hey, I'm glad I have things to talk with her about, right?
With the apartment, my key doesn't fit or whatever.
And I want to try and find out how old she is, so I'm going to ask her all these indirect questions, right?
And I want to come up with things that I can talk to her about, but then I shoot my load in some spectacular manner prematurely, let's say.
And so what's happening, it seems to me, because I don't know anything about this woman, obviously, right?
And so the only thing I can really look at is your behavior.
And you are not being direct and honest with this girl.
And I'm not saying that's good or bad, right?
I mean, there's some aspect of flirting that is that way, but you're being quite indirect.
I hope I bump into her this and that, right?
Right. Right, so I think you're very concerned, and we very much are like this, right?
One of the big problems with rejection is that, in my way of thinking, rejection from others always flows fundamentally from rejection of ourselves, right?
Right, so you're interested in this woman, right?
And, I mean, again, I'm not saying this is easy, right?
But the things that I've done, you know, when I was interested in someone is to say, okay, well, I think that you're interesting.
I really enjoy chatting with you.
Is it possible for us to get a coffee?
Are you allowed to have a coffee with someone who's a tenant?
You know, does that even fit within your own personal life?
Is that something you'd like to do?
Because I've really enjoyed our conversations, but they're always kind of come and go, right?
Like, I'm just blowing past or you're blowing past or whatever, right?
And give her the opportunity.
I mean, that's not saying, you know, let's go and see if we like each other romantically.
But it's like, I really enjoy our conversations.
But, you know, I feel like we're always in the middle of something else.
And I'm new to town.
I have some friends here, but it's always nice to meet more.
Would that be something you'd be interested in?
I'm not saying that's easy at all, but that is being a lot more direct than what you're being.
That sounds terribly frightening.
I feel like that would be...
I think that – I imagine that when I – if I were to do that, that it would be too forward or something or that it would be too forward or something or too – Well, no.
You're just asking someone that you enjoy a conversation with that for coffee, right?
That's not even gender specific, right?
And look, I don't know what's the right or wrong thing to do.
This is just things that I've done, right?
Now, Lord knows. I mean, I have a checkered past as far as all that goes, right?
But I believe in unpacking your heart to people.
I really, really believe in that.
And of course, I mean, it's not like I've been thinking about you day and night.
Yeah. I have some banana peels named after you in a very unsavory manner.
Whatever, right? I mean, I'm not saying anything like that.
What I'm saying is that you're kind of honestly expressing a preference or a desire to have coffee, right?
Right. Which is what you want.
You don't know if you want to date this girl.
But you know that you would like to have a conversation with her, right?
I do. And I think, and whether you say that or not, It's not as important as you knowing what it is that you want.
Like, what do you want?
You want to have a conversation with this woman.
Do you want to find out if she's worth finding out more about, right?
Yes. Yeah, I'm very interested.
You're very interested, right?
Okay. And I think that's the first thing that you...
You should know, right?
Now, you have a right to be interested in her, right?
Right. I mean, to use these colloquial terms, everyone's going to email, you don't believe in rights, and nitpickers anonymous, right?
But you are interested in the girl, and you have every right to be interested in her, and she has every right to not be interested in you or whatever, right?
But you have every right to ask her out for a coffee.
It's not a harmful thing to do, right?
Right. Right. And so you're interested in her and she certainly has, you know, obviously if you're comfortable, she's comfortable, right?
It's very hard for only one person to be comfortable, right?
Right, true. Right, so she's obviously enjoyed to some degree.
And, you know, I assume that you're sophisticated enough, and I know that you are sophisticated enough to, you know, it's like waitresses are friendly because they work for tips, right?
So, I mean, sometimes people can get confused by that and say, wow, she's really into me.
She smiles when I come in.
Yes, she does. But, you know, that's like thinking that Jessica Alba's into you because she stares at you affectionately from a movie screen, right?
That's her job, right?
I'm going to assume that it's not that and I think that's probably a fair assumption.
I'm sure it's a fair assumption. I've thought of that.
I've wondered if that's true.
Maybe it is. Well, but I would not go with that as my first instinct because then you wouldn't feel quite as comfortable.
You'd still feel a little nervous because you'd still feel a little bit manipulated by somebody who's being more friendly for financial reasons, right?
Oh, that's true. I would probably pick up on that.
Yeah, you just, you know, again, you've been in this for a couple of years.
You've therapy. I mean, you can start to really...
I think you can trust this stuff.
So I think that you can assume that you have expressed interest and she has expressed at least some level of comfort or pleasure in your company, right?
Right. Right.
So when I say just go ask her out for a coffee...
What is the caution or fear that is associated with it?
Because that seems to me easier.
I'm a take the Band-Aid off at once kind of guy.
Some people, they just want to go hair by hair and so on, make those little cat noises.
But I'm very much like, just take the damn thing off and lick the wound, right?
But that seems to me easier than spending a couple of weeks hoping to run into someone And hoping to come up with things to say and hoping something's wrong with the apartment and then wondering why she was kind of cold and then wondering whether you should...
Like, that seems to me like a lot of work as opposed to, you know, it'd be nice to grab a coffee.
I know it's a scary thing to do.
I'm not saying that it's easy.
I hope you understand.
I'm not a player. It's terrifying.
It is terrifying.
But I think it's important.
And I think it's important on a huge number of levels because it's very efficient.
Right. What you're doing is not efficient, right?
And I think it comes out of a self-rejection.
Well, I understand this sort of efficiency when it comes to being honest and open and vulnerable with people that I have been honest and open and vulnerable with so far.
With my therapist, with Greg, with...
All my friends and you and I understand the efficiency of it because it really gets to the root of things pretty quickly and there's a lot to learn from it and there's just so much To learn about the other person and how they treat vulnerability and how they...
Are they going to be...
I think you once said, do they have the human decency to be nice to someone who's in a vulnerable state?
Right, right. As I would be if I were to go and ask her to coffee.
Right. And your question is?
Mike, I don't know that it's a question.
I just want to just iterate that I understand the efficiency and I understand this, but this is different for some reason and not different in that it would not be efficient in the same way.
The methodology just reverses itself here.
Gravity is...
Rocks start floating up when it comes to this particular girl or any particular girl I'm interested in.
I think it's ten times scarier.
Oh, it is. It absolutely is.
And the fear has nothing to do with her.
I think the fear is what I might think of myself if she did reject me.
Yeah, the fear is of self-attack, right?
Which I did do when I felt rejected.
Right, right, right.
Right, the fear is of self-attack, right?
right this is what i mean when i said has nothing to do with her right right you you can't help in that this um...
cosmic gentle breeze it's gonna blow you two together you know That was kind of my imagination.
Yeah, you're going to, you know, hey, now that we're trapped in this elevator and it's really hot, right?
I mean, you're hoping that some circumstance is going to bring you two together and she's going to, you know, realize what a great guy you are and you'll have all the time in the world and blah, blah, blah, right?
That asking her to dinner would be a natural flow of a conversation that stemmed from asking her to help me out with something in my apartment.
Right. Now we're trapped in this elevator and it's really hot.
I do, in fact, have half a dozen hot dogs in my front pocket.
Right? Absolutely. Let's eat.
Anyway, so I think the first thing is honesty with yourself and is to say, I want to ask this girl for a coffee.
Right? Yes.
And just be honest with that with yourself and then say, I'm really nervous and afraid to ask this girl for a coffee.
Right? Which is, I think, natural, right?
And I think actually quite healthy.
I mean, the people who aren't afraid, I think, are not very mentally healthy, right?
So I think it's because, you know, when you want something, we're afraid of rejecting.
We're afraid of, right? We're afraid of not getting it, of course, right?
Right. It would be crazy to not, right?
Not be afraid, right? Of wanting something.
Because that would be to say, I want something and I'm indifferent to not getting it.
But that's a contradiction, right?
The more we want something, the more we are not indifferent to not getting it, right?
Right. So it's perfectly healthy to want, and it's perfectly healthy to be afraid of asking, right?
And you're going to be disappointed if she were to say no.
Of course you're going to be disappointed.
Disappointed does not mean...
Self-attack, right? Those two are not synonymous.
To be disappointed in not getting something that you want is not the same as self-attacking, but for a lot of us it is, right?
Because self-attack seems to be like the habitual answer to the question, why did she say no?
Or Well, but why is – we've got to get to the root of self-attack here, which I think is really the essence of it, right?
So why is there self-attack in this equation?
I don't mean just why you, but I mean why in general because, I mean, we all have that challenge.
Why is there self-attack when you want something and you don't get it or somebody rejects you and people can reject you for any number of reasons, some good, some bad, right?
And certainly, since you've been doing a lot of work on yourself and you're much more confident and you're not dating out of manic need or codependence or anything, there's a lot of great stuff there.
So anybody who would reject you is doing it because they...
Exactly. Sorry, go ahead.
I was just going to say, because I have so much to offer in terms of relationships, and I know that philosophy is something that comes with that.
And it's not exactly, it's threatening to bad people.
But for good people, I have a lot, a whole lot to offer.
Right, and the friends that you have there and the friends that you've made in this community and elsewhere value you and look forward to their conversations with you, right?
And so there's not a fear, you know, you said, oh, I'd like to call Greg, but I'm afraid he's going to hang up on me, right?
I mean, it's, you know, there's a confidence and a natural ease that comes from that.
This is one of the reasons why it's important to surround yourself with good and healthy people so that when people reject you, you can compare them to the people who accept you, right?
A man can be judged by his enemies as easily as he can be judged by his friends, right?
It is so helpful to be around good people and people that I can feel safe with and be vulnerable with and practice this kind of It's like graduation.
It's where you go after therapy, I think.
It is something I can compare this to.
I'm not sure where I was going with that.
No, no, I think I understand.
So let's try and stay on target with the girl, right?
With the woman. So you feel this overwhelming fear that comes with being honest with yourself and honest with her about what you want, right?
Now, I would submit that there's basically only two reasons for that, right?
This would be my theory, and you can let me know if it makes any sense.
The first reason is that You have built her up in your mind as the one, or possibly the one, right?
You're not in explore mode.
You're in gotta have it mode, right?
Because then the stakes are so high, right?
If only I can get this woman to have a coffee with me, then the rest of my life will be filled with love, laughter, and grandchildren, right?
Well, I think rather than the one...
It's close to that, but that's not exactly accurate.
It's more like this is the first person I've come across ever that I feel this kind of feeling around and feel this interest and feel comfortable with and feel that warm, giddy feeling. Well, the first person that seems available that I feel that with.
Right, right. Now, the giddiness is good, but I mean, the giddiness, I mean, certainly needs to be...
I don't know what the...
Yeah, I don't know what that means other than...
Well, it's kind of like a relief and a euphoria, and there's nothing wrong with that.
I think that's a perfectly delightful part of romance.
But you understand it is...
I mean, drugs get released in the brain during a courtship phase that are, you know, pretty strong, right?
I mean, there's lots of endorphins floating around and stuff, right?
So the high in all of that, there's nothing wrong with it.
It's a wonderful, wonderful part of...
Of dating. So it's either because, and I'm not saying it's either or, but if you've built her up to be like, this is someone I really, really, really, really, really want to get to know better.
Right. Right, then the stakes are very high, right?
Yes. But that's a form of self-attack as well, because you're elevating her, right?
And whenever you elevate somebody, we inevitably put ourselves down, right?
Right. Right, so you can be great for her, she could be great for you, it's worth exploring, but it's very important to remember that we are bringing great value to the table when we are asking for something, when we're asking for a job, when we're asking for a date, when we're asking for a friend, when we're asking for a raise, right?
I think it's important for us to...
I see how, too. Sorry, go ahead.
Because if I build her up, I elevate her as a rarity...
Of some kind. A rarity of interest, a rarity of someone that doesn't come along that I feel this way around or haven't felt this way around in a while.
If she's a rarity of interest, then that means I'm not in demand and I'm not rare.
Yeah, you're like one of a hundred guys who's indistinguishable who wants this job, right?
Right. You just have to beg and ingratiate.
It's automatically kind of weakening and humiliating and you end up being helpless and you end up being manipulative, right?
Which is, and I don't mean consciously, but this is kind of what you've done, like trying to overthink things and so on, right?
Right, that makes sense then.
So that's one possibility and we'll touch on that.
It's related to the second possibility.
And the second possibility, you know, again, I have this reference point called parenthood, which may or may not be of value in this situation.
Knowing what I do about your past, Nate, I do know, of course, that you were not considered to be of great positive and enduring value by your parents, right?
Particularly by your mother, right?
Right. I mean, I am very expressive with my daughter, the degree to which I enjoy her company, that she brings enormous happiness into my life, right?
Right. And she reciprocates, right?
So I come down in the morning.
Christina's always up before I am because she's a goddess, right?
But I come down in the morning and I'll come around the corner and it'll take Isabella a while to see me sometimes if she's playing or whatever.
I should turn around, she'll see me and I just, I give her the biggest grin and I like run over and, you know, pick her up, give her hugs, you know, and so that she knows that she's an enormously positive piece of my life, hugely.
And I know it's the same thing with Isabella, you know, and Sorry, with Christina and Isabella.
So, I'm not faking it.
I mean, she genuinely is. But I want my heart to be really open to her so that she knows how happy I am to see her.
And that's, A, because I obviously want to be honest with how I feel.
But it's also because I want her to always feel like she is a value.
Now, I know that for my own childhood, I was not always, but far more often than not, an inconvenience, a trouble, a problem, an eye roll, you know, someone who was making other people angry or being, quote, selfish or whatever.
Like I was considered to be a negative, you know, someone that the family just got saddled with or whatever.
Right.
So I was considered a negative, something to be put up with.
And I mean, that makes it impossible to negotiate.
And that's kind of why it's done.
Right.
When you already feel like you're a burden to someone, it's really hard to negotiate with them, right?
Like if someone's – if you've fallen or broken your ankle and someone is carrying you over sharp and jagged rocks, it's really hard to say, you know, listen, could you just be a little more steady, a little more stable and I got this itch behind my neck because you already feel like could you just be a little more steady, a little more well, I'm already being such a burden to them, I don't want to ask for anything else, right?
And I felt that way when I walked up to her that last time.
Right.
So when she appears to be distracted or not reciprocating with the warmth that she did beforehand, I would submit that you may well have felt spiraled right back into the cold bosom of Mother Not There, right?
Right. And suddenly you feel like, I don't have anything to offer.
I can't ask for anything because I'm already hanging by a thread in terms of people's grace and goodwill.
Right. I don't know if you've ever had this where...
I had this once, I think.
I was at a party...
And my ride left.
He hooked up and my ride left.
And it was like way... I didn't have a car.
It was way far away. I couldn't get there.
So I had to call a cab.
And it was some popular...
It wasn't New Year's, but it was some popular night.
And the cab took like 45 minutes to come.
And I was one of the last people to leave the party.
And the hosts were there.
And I knew they wanted to go to bed.
I was like, I knew they wanted to go to bed.
And I knew that they didn't want to just put me on the front porch and say...
Hope the cab comes soon, right?
Because it was kind of cold and this and that.
And they were gracious and they were nice people and they stayed up.
But I wasn't going to sit there and say, hey, do you have any more finger food that you could nuke up for me?
You know what I mean? Because I'd already kind of overstayed my welcome through things outside my control.
But that's not a time where you start negotiating because you already feel like I was extending up on their kindness too much, if that makes any sense.
Right. That's what I mean when I say it's not about her, right?
If you had grown up in a family where people were delighted to see you, you know, I think of this line literally every single time from a Beatles song, golden slumbers, you know, golden slumbers fill your eyes, smiles awake you when you rise.
You know, that when you rise up in the morning, the people are going to smile at you, they're going to be happy that you're there, they're going to be excited to see you, their day is going to be brighter because you've walked into the room, right?
I know, as sure as Sherlock did not experience that ever.
When I was a kid, I don't think you did a lot, and I don't think you did much at all, if any.
But that's a fundamentally difficult...
And that's the kind of difficulty that really continues into your adult life.
Like, I'm already hanging by a thread.
I'm already overstaying my welcome, so I can't negotiate.
And if people...
Because I'm not bringing pleasure to people's lives, I can't ever really ask for anything.
And so when you go up to ask a woman to go out for a coffee, I think all of that stuff kind of kicks up the spinal column and overwhelms, if that makes any sense.
Oh, quite a bit.
Quite a bit. Yeah, that all that, everything you mentioned there fits with my thoughts and my experience.
Right, right. And just by the by, right?
I mean, it's not just home, right?
I mean, were there any teachers who beamed with joy when you walked into the room and were very happy to have you in their class?
If I have to think, I don't think so.
Yeah, you would remember because it would be, right?
I remember too. Yeah, it's not just at home.
It's often the teachers as well, right?
They just kind of put up with us, right?
Right. We're just, you know, you little troublemaker, whatever, right?
I mean, I think it's a little better now, but certainly when I was growing up, we were just, you know, we were just beasts to be contained and lectured at, you know, with the grim and vaguely hopeless belief that some vague civility might be inflicted upon us if we were treated badly enough for long enough.
You know, like, there was no pleasure.
The principal and the teachers weren't overjoyed to be Teaching children and opening up shining young minds to the glories of knowledge, right?
It was just like, you know, basically sit down and shut up and stop causing me trouble and, you know, show your work and, you know, it was just – they seemed always kind of irritable and short-tempered.
And again, that's something where you don't sit there and say, well, I can negotiate here because you already feel like you're hanging by a thread.
Right, right.
And so it happens – It happens quite continually.
This is how one of the main reasons authority ends up undermining us, undermining our confidence.
Because it makes us feel like we are here by the grace of them and their temper is short.
Which means that we can't ever negotiate.
We can't ever say, no, no, I'm not happy with this.
Let's try it this way.
Or I don't really like the way this is going.
Let's switch it over to this way.
Or what do you think? Because we feel uneasy.
We feel like we're walking on a tightrope all the time.
No net. So we just kind of freeze and try not to make too much noise.
Yeah, it's like a minefield situation.
Right, right, right.
Living in a minefield.
Right, and I would submit that it's a possibility that this is what is occurring for you with this woman, right?
Like suddenly she's way up there and you're way down here and this slides you back down a sort of slippery slope back to your childhood, right?
With your family, with your school, with church and all these other things, right?
And I thought that maybe when the dating thing started becoming more of a...
I'd gotten back into dating that I might run into my history again.
Oh, you will. Look, and it doesn't go away.
Look, it is your history and it is 25 years, 30 years, right?
I mean, it is... It is you.
It's not like your history, like you can uncouple it like a caboose and you can't lose it like weight, right?
It is your history.
It is you. It's just that I haven't found myself running into it as much.
Sure. And that's been great because now you know when you do, right?
Right. That's the whole point for you, at least, you know, why I suggested don't date, you know, get good friends, right?
Because before, you would just go from one woman to another with all of this messed up, dysfunctional, key-your-car nonsense, and so you kind of wouldn't notice the next one, right?
Now you're noticing it. It's different from your other relationships, right?
Right. That's fantastic!
Right. So...
You know, enough amateur diagnosis.
The question is what to do, right?
Yeah, what now? Right, right.
right.
So if you could do anything, if you did not have fear holding you back, what would you do?
I'd go down there and ask her out.
Right, okay. I'm not sure how I would say it because look what I've been doing for the past three weeks now.
Walking past her.
I'm sorry to interrupt you because I just asked you what you would do, but you said it, right?
She knows you're interested.
Right? She knows you're interested.
Okay. Right.
Except that, right?
Because if she doesn't know that you're interested, then she's some sort of houseplant that's masquerading as a carbon-based life form, right?
A human being. Right. Right.
So she knows that you're interested because that's something that's of great interest to women, right?
If she's single or even if she's not, then she knows that you're interested so that she can work to give you the communication that my boyfriend or whatever, right?
Women are – and I'm not saying only women, but women are sensitive to men who are attracted to them because it can be very good for them and it also can be something that they want to discourage if it's not something that they can pursue or will pursue at this time, right?
Right. I mean if you've – I've had conversations with women who I've asked out and we've gone out on a date and And I sort of said, you know, when did you first think that I was attracted to you?
It was like, I don't know, like the second you walked into the room and looked at me, right?
I mean, they just know, right?
Exactly. That's the genes.
I mean, this is what women are, in a sense, I mean, programmed to do, to know this, right?
In the same way that men are sort of programmed for other things, right?
So she knows that you're attracted to her, right?
Yeah, I don't think a big...
You're not the X-Files here.
You don't have to wait until the fourth season to find out that there's no story that makes any sense, right?
So she already knows.
So you not asking her out is communicating something quite clear to her.
This guy is really fucking indirect.
You know, without wanting to continue your earlier metaphor, he'll beat around the bush until his arm falls off, right?
Right. How do I save that?
How do you save that?
What do you mean? How do I recover from that, uh...
Well, no, we're not – see, we're just – I think, you know, this is – self-attack occurs when we don't put ourselves in the other person's shoes enough, right?
So you've got to put yourself in her shoes.
She knows you're interested in her.
She hasn't – she also knows that she hasn't mentioned a boyfriend.
She doesn't have a wedding ring on.
You know, she's able to work late.
So she knows also that she's indicating, though maybe not to you, but she certainly is indicating that she is single, right?
Right. Now, she also, she may be, we don't know, she may also not have any intention of going out with you, but enjoys the flattery of your attention, of your interest.
Oh, that would suck.
Come on. We've all done it, right?
I mean, we've all done it.
Okay, yeah, I know. Come on.
You had a guy in a restaurant.
Anyway. You had a guy in Houston?
Anyway. Yeah, I remember.
Yeah, so we've all done it, and it does suck for sure, but yeah, we're human, right?
Right. It's nice to feel attractive, and yes, without a doubt, it can put a little sparkle in your day to know that somebody's interested, so that could be a possibility for sure.
Right. So she knows that you're interested.
She knows that she has not indicated that she is in a relationship.
Right? So basically, let's just look at her like this.
Like, have you ever tried to feed a squirrel in a park?
No. Have you ever tried to feed a bird or, you know, some sort of wild animal, right?
Yeah, of course. So let's just say it's a squirrel, right?
Just because I'm more experienced with that, right?
So you've got some nice tasty bread, right?
And you're beating off the seagulls.
You've got some nice tasty bread and you're sitting there and there's a gopher or a chipmunk or whatever, a squirrel, you know, 20 feet away, right?
And you sit there and the squirrel takes one step closer, goes two steps back, takes one step to the side.
At some point you're just going to be like, Oh, fuck it.
You can't be that hungry.
And you're just going to stop trying to feed the squirrel, right?
Because you can't get the squirrel to come close enough to feed the damn thing, right?
Right. It's like, what are you so cautious for?
What are you so nervous for?
I've got bread. I'm squatting down.
You know the drill. It's not even a baby squirrel, right?
This is a middle-aged squirrel, to continue the metaphor, right?
And that's me. I'm the squirrel.
Well, I think so.
Oh, by the way, Dawkins explains that whole thing, but go ahead.
Okay, alright. But so, at some point, she may just be like, oh my god, if it takes this guy like three weeks to ask me out for a coffee, now I'm not interested, right?
Right. Right.
Thanks, Charlotte, for elaborating on the...
Dawkins metaphor there.
Yes, I have a very long flight distance.
Stay on target.
Take your hands off the chat room.
No, but to put herself in her shoes, right?
Right. And that's...
I can see...
Now I'm sort of feeling embarrassed and like...
Oh, look what I did.
I screwed up something that could have...
No, no. Look, it might not be screwed up at all, right?
I mean, because if you...
You feel special pride in feeding the most nervous squirrel.
Right? Like if there's some really shy kid around who will come and play with you, you feel extra special, right?
Right. So the fact that you've done the shy thing is not bad as long as you don't keep doing the shy thing, right?
Right. So I need to be honest with her.
Well... First of all, you need to be honest with yourself, and you need to figure out what is going on for you that this has become such high-stakes avoidance poker, right?
Like how did you end up in a position where you're so helpless that you're hoping that you two are going to cross paths?
Yeah.
Because that's powerless, right?
And that's... I hope mom's in a good mood, right?
Right. I can't do anything to affect things.
I just have to cross my fingers and hope that...
Right?
Mom's in a good mood or whatever, right?
Now, the reason why...
I'm sorry, go ahead.
Because... Fear associations with women are just so hard to undo.
They really are. They really are.
And I know that I'm speaking glibly.
I completely understand.
This is why when you meet someone and get married, it's like, I never have to date again.
I never have to take another exam in school again.
I never have to do it. It's like, yay!
Right? It's fantastic. Right.
And that's what's on the other side, because we don't want to have to keep going through this in life, right?
Now, if you go and you ask her and she gets offended or weirded out or this or that or the other, then all that means is that she puts out mixed signals, which would be a disaster in terms of a relationship, right?
Right. For... That would say something about her, I guess.
Well, not you guess.
It would say something about her. Yeah, it would say something about her.
Now, if you go up and you say, I'd like to have a coffee, and she says, I'm sorry, I'm in a relationship, or I'm not allowed to date tenants, or blah, blah, blah, whatever, right?
If she's direct back, you know, yes, you know, now the ideal, and I'm not saying this is common, but the ideal would be to say, yes, I certainly was attracted to you, but you seemed very kind of nervous and standoffish.
And I don't find that particularly attractive, but I certainly do respect you for obviously overcoming that fear and coming to ask me out and so let me think about it or whatever, right?
I mean, that kind of honesty is just something we would love in life, right?
That would be nice.
But you've got to give it.
You've got to give it. I mean, you're the one who's trained in this stuff, right?
Right. Yes, I am.
That's the value that I want to bring to the table.
That's the value I'm talking about.
I'm not even bringing it.
She's not going to be, you know, hey, I'm just sitting here in my FDR hoodie and nothing else, right?
I mean, now somebody's going to put that in the mix tape for sure on the next wrap for FDR. But that's not going to happen, right?
You're the one who's been through therapy.
You're the one who's studied philosophy.
You're the one who's into RTR and honesty and directness and so on, right?
Right. And my suggestion would be until you gain better knowledge of her or have some capacity to develop a non-professional relationship is to say, you know, you don't go up and say, well, I've been – I talked with a friend of mine and I'm a bit nervous and I want to come up and talk and here's what I thought but I'm afraid because that's just going to be too much for her.
You don't know whether she can process that level of honesty or that level of depth.
But I do think – I do think that it's important – For you to be honest with yourself, and if you do want to pass over your feelings or whatever, there is an alarming thing that's occurring, which is that you seem to be getting refood before you've even asked her out.
That's not a good sign, in my opinion.
Huh. Not a good sign about her or about...
It's not a good sign about you both, but I would say more so about her, because you had this happiness and you had these conversations, and then she seemed inexplicably cold, right?
Right. That's not a good sign.
And that's kind of what I concluded at first, and that was what I... At least the answer that I had gotten to that it was more about her and...
Well, it's not...
Now, sorry. It's not that it's not a good sign just that she did that.
It's not a good sign that you didn't feel like you could say, hey, is everything all right?
Huh. Right?
Because she was cold and you refood and retreated and overthought and were self-manipulated and so on, right?
Right. Right?
So, if... She seems cold and distant, right?
Because if Christina seems distant or whatever, and I'll say, hey, is everything okay?
You seem a bit distracted or whatever, right?
And again, I want to compare eight years of a relationship to someone you haven't even asked out yet, but that was pretty early on, right?
Right. So the fact that she seemed distant enough to trigger a rifu reaction to you...
Is important to process.
Certainly. The fact that honesty terrifies you with her is also important to process.
Now, I think that if you still continue to think about it, I think you should test the theories, right?
We're all about empiricism, right?
So you test the theories, right?
You go and say, is everything okay, right?
And if she's like, fine, what could be wrong?
You know, it gives you that weird look like, why on earth would you ever even ask me, right?
But then it's like, forget it, right?
Then she's just, in my opinion, it would just be too primitive, too defended, too, you know, whatever, right?
To ask out. But, you know, if she says, you know, I appreciate that.
I just got news that my aunt had died and I was really, you know, really distraught.
You know, if she's honest, right?
Then it's like, wow, that's great, right?
Or if she said, you know, I was thinking about that, I was bothered by something at work, and you came up very friendly, and I was pretty rude, and I apologize for that.
That was not very nice of me, and I certainly try to, you know, treat everyone better than that.
I think that's also a nice thing to say, right?
For sure, I would.
But if you get that, what, everything's fine.
You know, you just get that empty nonsense nothing stuff, right?
Then that's important as well, right?
Right. That means, like, I was right.
My gut instinct not to be honest with her was – it wasn't a wrong feeling to have or inconsistent, unempirical feeling, I guess, to be accurate.
Right, right. I would say so.
It could also be that she's somebody who really likes for people to be attracted to her.
And so she comes across extremely happy, shiny, polishy, toothy, smiley, and all coo eyes and come hither, and then turns coals, right?
Right. For her own nonsense, right?
But it would be kind of odd that I didn't pick up on that.
It may be, and if you didn't pick...
I mean, see, this is why, you know, it's important to be honest with people, because then you find out, right?
This is the constant validation of our instincts, it comes out of being honest with people.
For sure, right. Right, so if it turns out that she's, you know, a tease, so to speak, and that's, you know, a bit of a weird way to put it, but if it turns out that she just likes people to be attracted to her and then she shuts them down...
Then you can find that out pretty easily, right?
And you would find that out by, you know, her asking you out.
Sorry, you asking her out and then her saying basically, I have no idea why you would ever think of asking me out.
As if you'd never had that kind of happy flirty thing, right?
Because that would just be weird, right?
Right. And so you get, okay, so she's got this cycle thing and this explains why she's single in her late 20s or early 30s and, you know, so that's sad, but...
You know, can't do much about that.
If people aren't willing to be honest with themselves, then she's just going to keep doing that, right?
But you're not getting...
See, you couldn't do that in your family, right?
No, that was an inescapable situation.
Right. So you couldn't empirically test in your family because there was kind of no point.
You couldn't. So you proved that your mother's X, Y, and Z, or your dad's X, Y, and Z. So what?
You can't change it, right?
Because you're a kid. So empiricism and the testing of our instincts and options and choices depending on...
It's impossible when we're children.
Or it's not impossible.
It's pointless, right? But you can't do that now.
And I've tested...
It's just like I know this both from experience and intellectually and that's how I know this is like just another level of that because I did this kind of thing with my therapist.
I've done this with you.
I've done this with Greg where I'm scared that something will be said and then when I'm honest and say it I turn out to feel safe instead of being attacked.
Right, right.
So empirically, I find out that, well, that was...
By being honest, I find out that I'm safe.
Yes, yes. And when you are that honest with someone...
The euphoria that you feel afterwards, no matter how it goes, is something that is completely addictive.
I've found that, except in this...
No, the more scared you are, the more euphoria you will feel afterwards.
Oh, that's interesting.
Because, I mean, the overcoming of the greater the courage, right?
Like, we think this wave is going to knock us over, but there's this courage that if we ride it, it's going to be euphoric.
And I can tell you this from a number of instances in my life where I've just been completely terrified to say something honest and frank.
And I end up doing that, and man, afterwards, I'm walking in clouds for days.
It's such a thrill.
Because we look at, oh my god, if I'm rejected or whatever.
But you know, it is an incredibly proud thing To let somebody else reject you rather than to reject yourself.
When somebody else rejects you after you've been honest, there's no shame in that.
I think there's honor in that.
There's pride in that.
Right. I mean, as I said, I'm a big one for just declaring myself.
You know, when I was single, I was interested in someone.
I was going to say, hey, you know, basically, I'm interested in you.
You want to get a coffee or whatever, right?
And yesterday, I felt...
Fantastic after talking to you.
That euphoria, because I did feel scared to tell you what I talked to you about yesterday.
Right, and how did you feel afterwards?
Very, very happy.
Yeah, ten feet tall, like you could rip up fur trees and use them as toothpicks.
Absolutely, right? Right.
And that's kind of motivating to feel fear and know that That the degree of fear is the degree of euphoria on the other side.
Oh, yeah. I was just remembering one woman I went up to and I said, I'd really like to ask you out, but I feel like it's completely insane because you're way out of my league.
I said something genuine because I was like, I'm really nervous to ask you out because I think you're going to look at me like I should be your bodyguard or something like that.
She was just this goddess or whatever, right?
And I think those things are just...
I mean, they're terrifying.
But I would rather – you will remember those moments.
You will – you know, when you're young, you think everything that's – I don't mean you, right?
But when we're young, we think everything that's bad in life is a net negative, right?
It's a net minus, right? I have 100 points of happiness.
If I'm happy for a day, I get 101.
If I'm unhappy for two days, I get minus two.
I'm 99. We think it's this up-and-downy thing.
You know, as I get sort of into solid middle age.
It's not true. It's not true.
You know, like I, as I said the other day, I fell carrying a bunch of plates.
I got a bad gash in my thumb. I had to have seven stitches, right?
I said, oh, that's a bad thing.
You know, seven stitches is bad, you know, and my thumb is a little wobbly and all that, right?
Oh, that's bad. But it's not.
It's not. I mean, A, I'll never do that again.
B, I haven't had stitches since I was 11, right?
And so, and I will have this memory of that day For the rest of my life.
Every time I will look at my thumb, if I still see a scar, which I'm sure I will, for the rest of my life, I'll remember, oh, I remember that day.
Oh, man, this happened and then we had to wake Isabella up.
We had to go to Emerge. I was there until 3 o'clock in the morning getting my stitches and blah, blah, blah, right?
I'll remember that forever.
That's part of my life.
Now, that doesn't mean I want to go out and get more stitches, but it's not the net negative that we think that it is.
So if you go out and you just say, you know, I'm really nervous to ask you out, but I'd really like to, or you just say, you know, I'd like to ask you out for coffee, or would you like to go for coffee, whatever, right?
If you get shot down, I mean, you'll remember that, and that's just part of your life.
It's not like this massive net negative that pushes you off a cliff.
I think that was more so when we were kids in our families or in schools or whatever.
But as you get older, these negative things...
They're just hard to see in the same kind of way.
There are just these pluses and these minuses, and the minuses are all bad, and the pluses are all good.
Things that I've succeeded at have made me very anxious.
Things that I've failed at have made me quite euphoric.
It's really hard to...
And sorry, the fact that I had a sort of minor injury means that I'm incredibly appreciative of not having minor injuries.
It's hard to sort of just put these into these plus and minus categories.
So if you look at, you ask this girl out, maybe you get shot down, maybe you don't.
If you do, it may not solve any problems in your life.
In fact, it may cause problems.
If she ends up saying yes and it goes badly, it may cause more problems.
You may look back and say, God, I wish you'd said no, right?
Right? Or if she says no, and then it turns out that she dates some Mohawk tattooed biker freak job, it's like, man, I'm glad she didn't say yes, because if that's the kind of guy she's looking for, that's not the category I want to be in, right?
Like, it's really hard to say.
And that's why honesty is the best policy rather than what is the outcome going to be, right?
Because, and I'm sorry, I'll stop the lecture just after this point, but You know how we say to people, you can't judge anarchism on the consequences, right?
We all, at least I strongly, reject the argument from effect, right?
Right. But with this woman, you are deploying the argument from effect, not the argument from principle.
You get that, right?
Like, focusing on what the effect...
Sort of like a utilitarianism...
What's the outcome going to be? Yeah, what's the consequences of...
Right.
What are the consequences? So we're saying...
We don't say that people say, well, if we go for anarchy, there'll be all these negative consequences, right?
Well, we say, well, we reject that.
We just go on the principle. Nonviolence and blah, blah, blah, right?
Whereas here, the...
The consistent approach. The principle is honesty.
Yeah, the principle is honesty with myself and with this woman.
And not what is the outcome of me asking her going to be.
All right.
Do you see what I mean?
This is the unified field theory.
What is the right thing to do versus what is...
The consequences of doing the right thing.
Yeah. I mean, how am I going to live according to my principles, right?
Because it's the only way we can ever figure out if our principles are good.
I mean, it's to get some empirical testing for them for sure, right?
But we can't use the argument for morality when it comes to everything except dating or asking people out, and then we suddenly completely ditch the argument for morality, go straight to the argument for effect, right?
I mean, we can, but it's just not consistent, right?
It can't be right. One of them is right or not, right?
Right. Well, Nash is writing that down.
I'm glad. That's the last thing that I wanted to say.
Sorry? That means this call is probably going to be useful to people.
Yeah, like we say to people about a stateless society, yeah, I know it makes you feel anxious, but, you know, let's just reason from first principles and that, you know, there's no other conclusion, right?
And so we ask people to overcome their anxiety and Because anxiety will always lead us to produce an argument from a fact to scare us with, right?
To paralyze us with.
But it's the argument from principle is philosophy.
The argument from a fact is just media scaremongery crap, right?
And I'm enormously scared to stand up for children who I see abused.
And you're enormously – so you have the right to ask people to overcome their fears of anarchism if you can overcome and say overcome your fear of the argument from a fact and go on principle.
You gain the right to say that with credibility to people and really the ability to say that with credibility with people when you in areas of your life stop using the argument from a fact and use the argument from principle and overcome your own anxieties in the same way that we ask other people to overcome their own anxieties.
Right. Forget the argument from effect because that's imaginary and can be used.
It's manipulatable because it's not logical and it's not empirical.
The argument from effect is a future fantasy.
Well, all these bad things will happen.
That's neither logical nor empirical.
That's just anxiety and fear and crap, right?
That's not principles. It's not principles, right?
It's just, you can make it up to be anything.
After anarchy is, you know, a land of milk and honey.
No, no, after anarchy is terrible, right?
Who knows, right? I mean, but we do know that reason and principle is the basis for these decisions.
And that's what I mean by living the philosophy.
You and I can't go around to make a stateless society, but we can apply the argument from principle rather than the argument from effect in our own lives and show people what that looks like.
This is just...
This is philosophy.
This is, you know, I posted this thing on the board the other day about, you know, this is philosophy.
This guy was writing this incredibly long and involved, and I thought just terribly written stuff, which a freshman in college had sent me.
I mean, fuck that.
I mean, who gives a shit about that stuff?
The important part about living philosophy is the principles that you can put into place to overcome the anxieties and fears that we have in our own lives, in the real world.
In the decisions and choices that we make in the everyday.
Yeah, and to be kind of honest, I haven't participated on the boards much because I just don't find those threads interesting and I find them...
Oh, that's totally fine.
This is not pimping the board.
I just sort of want to point out that it's very easy for us to do one of two things, right?
To either... Practice philosophy in the abstract or practice philosophy only with those who've already approved its use, like our friends and so on, right?
But practicing philosophy with people on the outside, you know, so to speak, right?
I mean, that's hard.
Right. And that's the next...
I mean, if you saw this woman reading The Psychology of Self-Esteem by Nat Brandon, you'd be like, all right, you know?
Yeah, I'd find it a lot easier.
Yeah, you'd find it a lot easier.
But if you are honest enough with her and she's interested enough in honesty, she may pick up that book.
In fact, she probably will. That's...
This is just amazing.
And none of this you don't have to ever ask this girl out, right?
You understand, this is not about the practicalities of it.
This is just around how are you going to make the decision, and it's going to be on principle, and don't get drawn into the argument from a fact, because that is just a self-scare tactic.
I just never thought of applying these same ideas to this area.
Okay, what does the U in UPB stand for?
Come on, you can do it.
Universally. Universally, right.
Universally. It means dating.
It doesn't just mean two guys in a room or a book on Lulu or whatever, right?
Right, and I was just saying the other night that I didn't really get UPB from your UPB book.
I really got UPB when I started seeing it in all the areas of my life where it It could be applied and I could experience it directly and...
Right, and UPB here...
I mean, UPB is... I mean, I specifically am against utilitarianism or the argument from the fact.
Consequences, right? If we do this, then that is bad, therefore we shouldn't do this.
Well, nobody's smart enough to know the future.
Nobody is smart enough to know the future.
And the problem with utilitarianism is looking at the past and thinking it's the future, because the only thing we have, empirical...
Empirically is the past. And for most of us, in the past, when we acted with freedom and ethics and integrity and honesty, we were attacked or bullied or put down or sometimes even assaulted by families or others, right?
And so empirically, we have this experience like honesty is going to get us attacked or punished or put down or humiliated or teased or whatever, right?
And so if we do the argument from a fact, we think we're talking about the future, but we're just talking about the past, the argument from principle.
Is what talks about the future.
It's the only way to face the future is from principle.
Otherwise, we're just reproducing the past.
Which brings me to the title of this future podcast.
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