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Oct. 25, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:53:49

1491 Sunday Show Oct 25 2009

Negotiations and disappointment, outgrowing Freedomain Radio, motivating employees!

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	Hello, everybody. It's Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain Radio.
	I hope that you're doing very well this fine Sunday, the 25th of October 2009.
	I hope you're having a most excellent week, and I hope that you are ready for a little philosophical rumble in the jungle of my brain.
	So I am more than happy to take calls.
	The call in number is 347-633-9636.
	And you are welcome to also type questions into the chat window on Blog Talk.
	Or if you want to join the Freedom Aid Radio chat, which I'm also having a look at, you can go to fdrurl.com forward slash chatroom, I think, or something like that.
	Just go to the homepage and there's a chat link.
	So I hope you're doing very well.
	James, we are live and on the line.
	I think everything is working okie dokie finey.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, your audio to me, I don't know if my audio to you is a little bit choppy, so what I think I'm going to do is I'm going to call in and use my cell phone.
	Alright. Do you want me to call yourself from SkypeySkype?
	Sure. I think we could do that.
	It's cleared up, but I mean, what's my audio like to you?
	Sounds great. I've got no problem.
	Well, let's leave it as it is for right now, and if it does, then I'll...
	Alright, you said that there were already some people who had called in, so let's perhaps not have me with the talking and instead go with the brains of the outfit, aka the glorious listeners.
	Yes, you gave the number out, and I just want to let people know that there is a click-to-talk feature using BlogTalk, so anybody that has a BlogTalk account, it's free, blogtalkradio.com, you can get that, but as always, please make sure you're using a headset and a microphone, it's a closed circuit, otherwise you will annoy people.
	Not only me, but Stefan, because we don't want feedback.
	The number that the caller is calling from is 937-ERICODE. Go ahead.
	How do you do there, Steph?
	I'm just great. How are you doing, my friend?
	Oh, I'm fine with the frog here again.
	I'm ready for this rumble in the jungle of your brain, and I have a scenario for you to see what you think.
	I was attending a developmental psychology class last week, and the topic of that day was to discuss the developmental changes occurring in early childhood.
	And one of the changes is that we start to use language to solve problems.
	And as the child progresses with language, they start to form private speech.
	And my professor was talking about this, and she said in this, This private speech may be used to self-regulate.
	In other words, to plan, guide, and monitor their own behavior.
	I'm sorry, just want to make sure I follow.
	You use the term private speech, is that right?
	Yes, private speech.
	And can you just tell me a little bit more about what that means?
	Private speech is...
	Let me refer to my textbook on this.
	It is...
	This is the use of self-regulation in private speech.
	For Piaget, private speech is egocentric and immature, but for Vygotsky, it is an important tool of thought during the early childhood years.
	So it's a way that the child can plan, guide, and monitor their own behavior.
	So is it like if the child falls down, the child can say to him or herself, it's okay, I'm fine, and suit themselves that way?
	Is that what's meant by private speech?
	Absolutely, and it's just like your example where you used to suck on your thumb to actually soothe yourself.
	Okay, so it's a way of narrating experience to gain some sort of objective, not quite just in the moment, but, you know, sort of a child saying to himself, I'm thirsty now, but I will have something to drink very shortly, and therefore it's okay, rather than a baby who doesn't have really the capacity to defer through language that way.
	Is that a fair approximation?
	Yeah. Yes, yes, yes.
	Or the baby will tell itself to go to sleep, you know, it's alright, just calm yourself down, go to sleep.
	You know, it'll take on the mother's role, the mother's not in the bedroom.
	Right, so it internalized a caregiver, and we assume a good caregiver if the self-soothing is going to work, so the child has internalized a caregiver and can, in a sense, think of a nursery rhyme or a sing-song, a lullaby, to help the child fall asleep.
	Is that right? Yes, sir.
	Okay, sorry, just want to make sure we're on the same page as far as that goes, so please continue.
	Okay, so she was saying, this type of self-regulation can be prevalent in adulthood as well.
	And then my professor proceeded to try to find an example, but unfortunately she couldn't find an example at that moment.
	So I raised my hand up and asked, would prayer be an example?
	And the shock, the horror, you know, there was a Macalina disagreement to the audacity of the claim, and then she started to stutter and say, well, uh, I'm just going to refer to my example.
	And so she proceeded to talk about somebody being on the road and having to fly a tire and then talking to himself to get himself through the process of fixing the tire.
	So I didn't say anything after that until after class because, you know, we're on a...
	It's a time-constraining schedule, so I didn't want to, you know...
	It would create too much of a ruckus.
	But anyway, so after class, I addressed the question to her, and she would not provide me with the idea that it could be a form of self-talk.
	Rather, she said it was just a form of therapy, and she wouldn't even consider the fact that it could be a form of talk.
	And I guess it is a complicated and sensitive topic to discuss in class.
	However, I think it was necessary to light other people's minds and have them thinking about this topic.
	I mean, it's a very prevalent thing in a lot of people's lives.
	And what the idea for me to ask the question due to...
	The idea arose for me is from one of your podcasts where you were talking about how prayer, you know, of course, is highly illusory, but you can also tap into your unconscious.
	Is that the correct sort of claim that you made?
	Yeah, just to summarize, for those who haven't heard the argument, as a strong atheist, I don't obviously believe that people are talking to any kind of divine intelligence, yet it is a practice that many people find helpful, which is the idea that you will sit down and you will ask for some sort of wisdom or some sort of answer or some sort of comfort.
	And I don't believe that people would continue to do that if it never worked at all.
	I think that there is a placebo effect, but I don't think it's just a placebo effect, like a sugar pill can help you with certain kinds of pain, if you believe it will.
	I think that when people ask questions of the universe, they're kind of dropping a message in a bottle down the well of their unconscious, and we have a huge amount of accumulated wisdom, I believe, just genetically and biologically and experientially and even to some degree socially.
	And so when people do ask questions of the universe, they're in fact asking questions of their inner deep wisdom, and then they are receiving those.
	Of course, I can't say that that's proven, but I think it certainly has worked for me.
	When I've asked questions of myself, I've received some extraordinarily startling and wise, I think, I hope, wise answers.
	And I believe that prayer is a way of people being able to achieve that.
	They do mistake it epistemologically by thinking that they're talking to a god rather than their own wisdom.
	But, yeah, so I think that's a fair characterization that you've put on my ideas, and I thank you for that.
	That's not as common as I'd like sometimes.
	Oh, no problem. You know, I value your opinion, your ideas, and I try to bring this message out to the people and see what they think.
	And sometimes, like my professor, would not even address the problem or address the situation further.
	Just decided to sort of clam up when something like that.
	Well, and, you know, I can sort of understand why, but perhaps you have some thoughts about that as well.
	The only thing I can think of is possibly the time constraints, and she may have just set opinion about it anyway.
	I didn't ask her about her religious beliefs, but she may have a set opinion that may be hindering her from further analyzing the question.
	Well, those could all be the case, right?
	And I certainly don't want to, you know, second guess anybody from a distance, particularly a psychology professor, but my opinion would be something like this.
	Most people who study psychology have less of a belief in God.
	This is my understanding, right?
	I can't give you references. I've read it somewhere, but I'm not going to say it's entirely proven.
	And I'm thinking of Jung and Freud and other people like that, but it's true, I think, of more contemporary.
	Now, there are Christian psychologists and this and that, right?
	But I'm just saying that a lot of people who study psychology have the understanding that what people will often mistake...
	Internal phenomenon for an external phenomenon and they also would have seen the studies where particular types of electrical stimulation Can produce religious visions within the mind to the kind of epsilon epilepsy can produce religious visions down to the details of cherubs and angels with wings and so on so there's lots of physiological explanations as to why people would have these rapturous visions and and so on and so The people who study a lot of biology tend to be less religious.
	It's like 92 or 93% of the members of the Royal Society of Science in England are atheists, like no believers whatsoever.
	So the more educated you tend to become in science or in something that's close to science, like psychology, the less likely you are to look for irrational or superstitious-based or divine explanations outside.
	So my guess, again, who knows, right?
	But my guess would be that she is skeptical to some degree of religion.
	But I think if you look at the cost-benefit for her as a professor...
	You're calling from the States, right?
	Yes. This is actually a Southern California professor.
	Okay, so she's a Wiccan. I got it.
	But for the professor, look at the cost-benefit.
	I mean, if she says...
	No, yes, that is self-soothing because there is no God, and therefore people are mistaking this kind of self-talk for communication with a fictitious deity and blah blah blah.
	Well, for sure there's going to be some religious people in the room, right?
	Right. And they're going to get highly offended, and they're going to say that, you know, she's stepping out of bounds, that she's a psychology professor, not a theologian, she shouldn't be commenting on these things.
	And they may very well get upset, and they may write letters, and they may get, you know, angry, and they may start protesting.
	You don't know, right?
	But it certainly is possible.
	That is definitely true.
	Now, on the other hand, if she says, yes, prayer is talking to Jesus who, you know, sits on your shoulder like a sort of vaguely glowing leprechaun and whispers wise things into your ear while all the time stigmattering all over your shirt collar, right? She's going to be—she's going to alienate people who are more atheist or agnostic or those who are not Christians.
	Or those, you know, if she says single god, then she may offend Hindus who believe in thousands of gods, right?
	So no matter how she's going to answer that— She's going to offend people or make people upset.
	And those people could then make her life difficult and problematic.
	They could lodge a grievance against her.
	It goes on her permanent record.
	She has to spend time documenting.
	She has to go to sensitivity classes.
	I mean, whenever you take a stand on anything, and I can tell you this from some experience, whenever you take a stand on anything, you will inevitably anger people who don't have good reasons for their beliefs and don't want to have that exposed.
	So I can completely understand why she would have no particular desire to tackle the topic and would have fogged and vagued her way out of the situation.
	Where I, in her shoes, I would almost certainly do the same thing, which is why, well, one of the many reasons I'm not in that particular position.
	I like the freedom to be able to speak using reason and evidence without fear of consequences from people who are offended by rationality.
	So, I mean, I would do the same thing.
	What is the cost-benefit to her for answering that in a way that is going to antagonize, for sure, no matter which way she cuts it, some people?
	Right, right. I see what you mean when you say that.
	It's definitely, you know, there's a lot of factors involved in it, and I guess I just had that urge to just ask that question, you know, in my mind at that moment.
	And she doesn't, sorry to interrupt, but she also, when you ask that question, she doesn't really know whether you're setting a trap or not.
	You know, whether you're actually a Christian saying, well, what do you think of Jesus, right?
	She's just, why would she want to get into it?
	She's there to teach psychology, not to determine questions of godhood or non-godhood.
	And she probably has some beliefs privately, who knows what they are.
	I would guess that they would tend more towards atheism or agnosticism.
	But there's...
	There's just no benefit to her.
	It's why bad teachers in the public school system don't get fired, right?
	Because it takes two years and, you know, thousands of pages of paperwork and they can lodge grievances against you and they can make your life difficult and they can have strikes and they can just make your life difficult.
	The cost-benefit is just not there.
	And this is why these kinds of institutions tend to promote this kind of bland, middle-of-the-road, non-committal, non-value-based education.
	In a way, I would say moral mediocrity, which is not to say that the studies in psychology are mediocre, but the stands that are taken tend to be pretty wishy-washy.
	And this is why in so much of education that is state-related, and university is state-related for sure, you end up without any fundamental moral stands being taken because you're just going to anger people.
	You're just going to anger people.
	And the angry and irrational people...
	Can make your life challenging.
	And what's really the benefit?
	I mean, there's not much win, and there's a whole lot of loss.
	Right, right. And so, I see.
	So, if you just sort of go through the motions of sitting in a classroom and not really doing your own sort of research or your own questioning of the information, then you're just going to have a pretty bland educational experience.
	And I guess it's up to us to actually Go out there and just sort of, like, research ourselves because we won't find the entirety of the topic in the classroom.
	Well, I think for sure, if you think, the ideal purpose of education is not to teach you conclusions, but to teach you a methodology of thinking.
	The purpose of a mathematical education is not to have you memorize every possible multiplication or division of numbers and have every result in your head, but to teach you how to process mathematical calculations and arrive at your own conclusions.
	The ideal, I think, for education is to teach you how to think, not what to think.
	That certainly is how I'm trying to approach parenting, which is to not Teach my daughter conclusions like there is no God or, you know, the state is immoral or anything.
	I mean, because teaching her conclusions would be useless and I think would actually be somewhat destructive to her capacity for reasoning and evidence.
	And also it's kind of arrogant as a parent, just by the by, I think, to say, well, I have all the answers and here they are, right?
	Which is to say that it's not a two-way street.
	I mean, sure, I'm absolutely sure that my daughter is going to be smarter than I am, which is not hard at times.
	And genetically, she's just going to be...
	Every generation gets more intelligent.
	And so she's going to have a lot to teach me.
	And so I want to teach her a methodology so that she can also instruct me.
	And I think that that's the ideal of an education, which is to teach you how to think, how to reason, and to give you scope for creativity, not to teach you conclusions.
	So I view it as a launch pad, not a...
	It's like a place where you launch off into the space...
	Into the stratosphere of your own capacities, not an airline, you know, a flight where somebody else is piloting you to a safe landing?
	Right. Okay. Definitely.
	I do appreciate it.
	I do appreciate this discussion and you addressing all these various things.
	Thank you very much for everything that you do as well.
	I really appreciate that, and thank you so much for listening, and thank you for calling in.
	It was an excellent, excellent question, and Are you taking psychology in school, or is it sort of a by-the-by that you're passing through?
	Well, yes, that's my first major.
	I'm majoring in psychology and biology.
	I don't know if I want to actually continue psychology in graduate school.
	I'm being drawn towards more to biology.
	We'll see what happens. I'm almost done with my psychology major, but I'm getting into biology as well, just to see how that's going.
	But yeah, I'm very interested in psychology, but I don't know how...
	I'm not really sure what kind of jobs are out in the market that I would particularly like to do.
	You mean in the psychological field?
	Yeah. Well, I mean, you could, of course, be a psychologist, right?
	Like, be a therapist or be a counselor.
	I mean, that's, you know, to get the master's level, I don't know where you are, what the rules are, but usually a master's level or certainly a PhD will give you the right to do that.
	And you could, I mean, this is just, you know, do whatever you want, of course, right?
	But as, you know, as far as possibilities go, you can, you know, become a psychologist, help people.
	I think your interest in philosophy will only help you in that field.
	And, you know, you can start a clinic, you can hire 10 psychologists, you can, you know, do some real good in the But, you know, this is just, you know, it's a possibility.
	There's lots of things you can do other than research with a psych degree, which of course I don't have, but this is what I hear, right?
	Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, a lot of kudos to therapists and the psychologists out there to actually really have this one-on-one correspondence with people.
	But yeah, for me, I don't know if I could fill those shoes because It just seems like you're thinking about everybody else's problems as well as your own.
	You just have these accumulations of, you know, all these rocks.
	I mean, your own rocks with your own problems and other people's problems.
	I think in a year or so, I would just become crazy to think about all these problems.
	I probably would lose sleep at night.
	Look, I mean, it can happen, I'm sure.
	But helping people is, and this is pretty well established scientifically, and you can do the research.
	Of course, you'll have access to all the materials through your school.
	But helping other people is a primary ingredient to happiness.
	And so, yes, I'm sure it is the case that you carry other people's burdens, but you also lighten their load.
	And lightening their load also lightens your load.
	And so, it is not like people just keep piling rocks and you should do until your legs squish like an accordion, not two accordions, right?
	That helping other people does lift your own burdens within life.
	It puts things in perspective.
	You have a great deal of satisfaction in the process of helping people towards the truth, towards honesty, towards openness and communication in their relationships.
	Their happiness, they're discarding their rocks through the tutelage of a good therapist, I believe.
	And in that process, the therapist's rocks are also discarded.
	And I think that's how it works.
	And that would be my way of looking at it.
	But of course, if you're interested, the thing to do, in my opinion, is A, I mean, I suggest this to everyone.
	I don't even know you, right? But I suggest it anyway, that anybody who wants to take on great things in the world, or even medium things, in terms of achieving goodness and spreading virtue and truth and happiness, I always suggest that people take therapy.
	Try it. You'll probably get it for free through your school, and you'll get a chance to see what it's like.
	And I think every therapist should be on the receiving end, And I know some therapists actually have to, like you have to take therapy in order to be a therapist.
	And so I would suggest that.
	I mean, I think that's just an important thing to do.
	It's like having a coach, right?
	It's not like physiotherapy, like you're all messed up and you need to get fixed up.
	But I think it's more like I want to achieve great things.
	I want to be a great athlete, so I need a great coach.
	And I think that's what a therapist is.
	And see what it's like on the receiving end.
	And also then...
	See if you can talk to a couple of therapists who've had some experience and say, how did you deal with this issue or is this even an issue?
	Again, as somebody who studies science, you want to get the facts as much as possible and not prejudge the situation.
	So those would be my two suggestions.
	Get a bit of therapy yourself to see what it's like on the receiving end and also talk to a couple of therapists and see whether that's even an issue or how they deal with it if it is.
	Absolutely. That's a good point there.
	I never thought of it like that, just sort of getting into the shoes of somebody who is actually receiving therapy.
	And so, yeah, I mean, I'm going to definitely look into that in my school, and I'm sure we do have something like that that is free.
	And then, yeah, there's plenty of therapists out there that I can talk to since I'm in the psychology program.
	Yeah, I mean, if you like biology more, by all means, but I would just, you know, if you do love philosophy and the truth and you're interested in psychology, I mean, obviously I would prefer it, not that my preference means anything whatsoever, but at least I would prefer it if you explored that and didn't prejudge about how good or bad it might be.
	Right, right. I'll definitely do that because, I mean, it's, yeah, I've sort of, I've been having sort of a closed view towards it, and I should be more open to the idea of doing therapy.
	I sort of just made up my mind and said, well, if I talk to all these people, I'll become crazy myself, but I need to have more of an open view and actually talk to people about this, and I appreciate that.
	Yeah, and it is a recognized problem, as far as I understand it, within the therapeutic community, so there are ways in which, I think, You may be trained to deal with those situations, or you may be under supervision for the first couple of years so that you don't internalize and take on everybody's problem.
	I mean, it is a recognized issue in the therapeutic community that you don't want to be, you know, everybody's, you know, carrying around 400 pounds of luggage every day.
	So since it is a recognized issue, there are things, I believe, in place that either help prevent that or help you manage it if it should occur.
	So again, I would just say look into it if you're interested in that kind of stuff, because I mean...
	I think you can do a great deal of good in that field.
	Absolutely. I appreciate that.
	And you take care.
	Have a great day. And when you get off the phone, thank you very much.
	All right. Thanks a lot. Best of luck.
	Keep me posted if you can. Absolutely.
	Thanks, man. Bye.
	All righty. Mr.
	Mr. JJ, do we have a...
	How did I know you were going to talk to me?
	Okay, yeah, we do have some more callers.
	They don't have their hands up, but I'll try them.
	I'm sorry, do they just have their fingers up or...
	Well, normally there's a hand on the screen.
	Oh, I see, okay.
	They're calling to just listen using the phone or if there's a hand up.
	Hi, Steph.
	I had a kind of like a follow-up from my question from last week.
	Two weeks ago. Last week?
	Yeah, last week.
	This is Marissa. Yeah, go for it.
	I had a question about... Yeah.
	So I just...
	I wanted to let you know that the conversation was really helpful.
	I got a chance to talk to the people about them not responding to my emails and it was a really productive conversation.
	So thank you for that.
	And then... Just to remind you, it was kind of about like, sorry.
	No, I remember you were trying to get a cooking thing going, is that right?
	Right, yes, exactly.
	And what happened was I felt, I was kind of like feeling like I was taking it personally, that they weren't expressing their preferences or responding to my email right away.
	Right. And you used the metaphor that it was like both of our histories were kind of like falling on us and we were blaming each other.
	Right. So, yeah, and I had a follow-up question on that.
	I was wondering if you had any secret ninja tricks to kind of prevent that from happening or to be more aware of how to prevent that.
	No, I mean, that's a fantastic, fantastic question.
	I sure wish I did have a secret ninja tree.
	I really do. I mean, I kind of do, but it's not a secret.
	There are two components, I believe, to continually, successfully negotiating some of the roadblocks or problems within relationships.
	The first is a sort of rigorous commitment to self-knowledge, right?
	To know yourself.
	And so if you have...
	So if you know yourself, you'll say, well, whenever I try to get things going, I feel anxiety because in the past they didn't go well and I'd get frustrated and I'd get bottled up and so on.
	So you would have that knowledge that going into it ahead of time, there was going to be an issue.
	And so that is the first thing that I would suggest.
	Because then knowing it, it's not like you know it going in, right?
	So for instance, I mean, from my own life, when I was younger, I would try, I've never been good at throwing parties.
	I mean, I threw a couple when I was a teenager that were relatively successful.
	And then a couple more sort of when I was in the theater world sort of, but that was all, you know, like closing night parties when kind of everybody wanted to be there and so on.
	But then when I was in my master's I tried throwing some parties and everybody would say they would come.
	But they wouldn't.
	I kind of lived a little bit out of the way.
	You know, there are some people, they just kind of snap their fingers and their background turns into some sort of beer commercial.
	Everybody's in bikinis and dancing and there's lambadas and there's fire breathing and dragons slowly circling overhead.
	Some people can just kind of snap their fingers and they have that social magnetism, that social gravitational pull that just wonderful things start to happen around them.
	I'm not one of those people at all.
	I never have been. I've known a couple of people like that and I've really envied that ability.
	I don't have it. So when I first began to, you know, when we first talked about, like, it'd be really nice to meet some people who listen to the show.
	You know, we'll have a barbecue.
	We'll sing some silly songs at karaoke or whatever it is that we wanted to do.
	I was sort of aware going into it, you know, that I was going to have some struggle with if people said they wanted to and didn't show.
	Or, you know, if we sort of went to all of this, you know, getting a party going is kind of a big struggle.
	You've got to do a lot of stuff.
	And if people don't show, it's not only is it kind of painful, but also, you know, at least spent a lot of money getting all the food and all that.
	But also you have this challenge that you're kind of disappointed and perhaps angry, but there are still people there and you don't want to just sit there and bitch.
	So that's an additional challenge that you kind of have to put that aside and be enthusiastic.
	And some things have worked out really well.
	Like the barbecues have been a lot of fun.
	And some things, you know, we had a book club for a while.
	We actually had a book club once.
	And there was a salon thing that we tried a couple of times that didn't really work out.
	But I sort of knew ahead of time that that was going to be an issue.
	I also knew ahead of time that I don't have that kind of social magnetism that just makes people...
	Want to jump into my Smirnoff commercial, so to speak, right?
	So knowing that ahead of time helps a lot.
	And I think it took the pressure off.
	Because when people feel that you're kind of working through some stuff through throwing a party, you know, like, you have to come, otherwise I'm a social failure or whatever.
	They feel resistance because they feel like they don't want to do that for you, in a sense.
	Like, they don't want to come because you'll be upset if they're not there or whatever.
	So... So I think knowing that ahead of time is really important.
	And I think also, you know, just that honesty with other people, you know.
	Because our general tendency when people don't, like someone makes a commitment and then they don't do it, is to say, I'm mad because you failed in your commitment to me.
	And we tend to get all heavy and moralistic about that kind of stuff.
	And I'm not saying it's good to not follow through on your commitments.
	But we tend, because we're hurt, We tend to not talk about our feelings, but we tend to talk about heavy kind of moral obligations.
	You know, like, you know, everybody said they were going to come, you know, I'm doing this out of my own goodwill.
	The least I could expect from a decent bunch of people is some kind of civilized response.
	Like, we tend to get kind of, I'm not saying you did this, right?
	I'm not saying I've ever done this, but this is kind of what goes on in our head sometimes.
	Because we can't be vulnerable, we become moralistic.
	And that, I think, is a real problem.
	And I think I mean, this is why moralizing doesn't really work.
	And I know that I'm on all kinds of thin ice here, right?
	So I'll just sort of say this and people can tell me how Mr.
	Moralizing says that moralizing doesn't work.
	But fundamentally, moralizing doesn't work because if you have to tell people, like let's say, you know, you and I arrange to meet for lunch or whatever and you don't even show up.
	Right.
	amount of time ahead unless there's some you know weird emergency if i genuinely believe that you lack the sense and basic human decency and empathy to do to either show up or say you're not going to then there's no i don't think there's any possibility of any kind of real relationship right because i can't teach you that you know what i mean and i can come down morally on you heavily but you know that's probably why you didn't show up to begin with because people have moralized and you've got this resistance and so on right
	So I can talk about how I felt if I feel that we can have a relationship.
	Now, if I feel that, you know, this is just too weird, like we can't have a relationship, then moralizing won't help.
	I think we moralize because we are hurt but we don't want to be vulnerable.
	I think it's important to explore why we don't want to be vulnerable and honest in certain relationships rather than fall back on, you know, pulling the big...
	I'm a moralizing lever that, you know, the sky falls in around people, and I think it's just so heavy, if that makes any sense.
	Right, yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense, for sure.
	I mean, I had to, sorry, I know I'm luxury here, but it just sort of struck me that a friendship that I had with a fellow I met when I had my first programming job, he and I, he helped me to, I was a real workaholic, and, you know, it was my very first programming job.
	I had no training, and so I was...
	You know, pretty nervous and wanted to do a good job.
	And he was, you know, he was a good mentor in that sense.
	And we became friends for a couple of years.
	He was actually on the volleyball team where I ended up meeting Christina.
	So, you know, thanks to him.
	But for a variety of reasons, things began to go sort of awry in the relationship.
	And then at one point, we were supposed to meet he and his wife.
	We're supposed to meet Christina and I for some pool and dancing and so on.
	And so we went down to the place, which was kind of out of the way, and they just never showed up.
	Now, that's kind of tough, right?
	Because you don't want to just go play pool and dance.
	You kind of want to look for them coming, right?
	So you're kind of stuck hanging around the entrance, and you can't really relax and get into it.
	Tried calling a couple of times, and then finally got through, and the fellow said, what did he say?
	Something like, I said, well, where are you guys, right?
	And he's like, oh, my wife was tired, so she just went to bed.
	Right? And I was like, you know, things had not been going well for a while, and we don't have to get into why.
	But I was like, part of me was like, well, what do you mean she went to bed?
	How come he wouldn't call? All this kind of stuff.
	But then another part of me was like, well, if he's going to actually, in a sense, look me in the eye and tell me that that is a reasonable answer as to what's going on, I don't know what to say.
	Like, I don't know what to say to somebody who says, oh, we didn't show up because she got tired and she went to bed.
	And we didn't call. How do you even, how do you say something?
	So at that point, it was like, okay, well, I guess we're kind of done, right?
	Because I just didn't, I didn't know what to say.
	And I think that's an important thing.
	Now, you could, if I, because I was hurt and upset, and also I was a little embarrassed, because, you know, Christine and I were fairly new dating, and it was like, here are my quality friends.
	You know, they tell us to meet them, tell us to meet them somewhere, and they don't show up, and then they get the, you know, it was a little embarrassing for me, but of course, Christine, it was fine, but...
	Um, but it's when you get to that point where it's like, you know, I don't even like my, I don't even know what to say.
	That to me, I think is where we, we have this tendency to moralize because we're angry.
	We want to, we kind of want the other person to self attack.
	So we moralize them. And I think that's not a wise thing to do.
	Right. No, yeah, that makes, that makes total sense for sure.
	So just kind of like try to, try to just stay aware of what kind of like I'm sensitive to.
	Right. And, and, and, uh, Just kind of be aware of what I'm thinking.
	Just because I'm feeling hurt, don't try to moralize, right?
	Like, you owe me an apology.
	That's something that I've kind of been guilty of.
	I get into this mind state, like, you owe me an apology because you hurt me.
	But I mean, I don't think that has to do with...
	Well, yeah.
	I mean, I think once you know yourself well enough, then I think you can become more certain about those things.
	But I think early on in the place, in the phase of self-knowledge and really bringing openness to your relationships, if you're upset by something, I don't think when you start out down the road of self-knowledge, I don't think it's fair to say 100% of my upset is coming from the other person's actions.
	I think that's just too far.
	So for instance, a bunch of people didn't come to my parties when I was 27 or whatever, right?
	And so if somebody doesn't show up at FDR, is it 100% that it's all them and nothing to do with my history and nothing to do with old scar tissue or wounds or disappointments or frustrations or unprocessed things that I have?
	I'm not confident enough to say that.
	Right? And I think in order to avoid that history, we tend to moralize on other people and say it's 100% you.
	But I think that it's so important to say, this is why, you know, in the RTR book, I sort of say, I'm upset and I'm not going to say that I know why.
	I don't know why. I know that I'm upset, but I'm not going to come up with some easy answer that says, well, it's 100% you, it's 0% me, and it's immoral what you're doing.
	You know, whatever it is that we come up with, right?
	Because I think we then rob ourselves.
	Right. Of trying to really figure out what's going on.
	What's going on for the other person? We also don't know why they didn't show up or do what they said they were going to do.
	What is going on for them?
	If you break through that, break through your own cycle, break through their cycle, you can get some real intimacy and some real knowledge of yourself and another person and gain great skills in negotiation.
	I think that's really important.
	Absolutely. Definitely.
	And I was saying on a call the other day, so I think it's going to be a premium call, but I was sort of saying that when you have a conflict with someone, you can actually have a powerful enough, if you're honest and vulnerable enough, a powerful enough communication that you're actually glad that the conflict arose afterwards.
	You're like, wow, if that hadn't arisen, I wouldn't have learned all this about myself and about you.
	Because we're all like, oh my god, I don't want conflict.
	I don't want to have a fight with someone.
	I don't want to have conflict. But there is a way of Talking through conflict, if you're honest and vulnerable enough, that you can actually be enormously glad that the conflict came up afterwards.
	Sure. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
	Yeah, I've actually experienced that before.
	It's just like really, really productive to, you know, explore that and learn about what's going on for me and what's going on for the other person.
	And yeah, you're right, it does. It does bring you closer together.
	And remember, I'm not just talking about makeup sex.
	Anyway, just to be clear.
	Just to be clear. Because, you know, we can't have that with everyone because laws.
	Anyway, so I just want to mention that.
	Right, right. Does that help?
	I know that was a bit long-winded, but I hope that helps.
	Yeah, that was very helpful.
	Thank you so much. You're welcome.
	And once more, keep me posted.
	All right, thanks. Thanks.
	Once more, the caller number 347-633-9636 if you would like to chat.
	About philosophy, which is the all-discipline, pan-dimensional, multi-cosmological, whatever it is that is on your mind, I would certainly be more than happy to listen to.
	Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimbo?
	Yep, we do have more callers.
	Caller from area code 215.
	You are live on the air with the Frasier Crenshaw, I mean, Stefan Molyneux, Free Domain Radio Show.
	Go ahead.
	Hello. Are you there?
	I sure am. How are you doing?
	Hi. It's me, Nate.
	Oh, hi. It's me, Steph.
	I just haven't talked to you in a while.
	Yeah, that's true. Pretty great.
	Fantastic. And that's part of what I wanted to talk about.
	Just some rank praise for you.
	Well, let me just be quiet and you can have the entire rest of the show.
	I'm going to get comfortable and get the small Jamaican fellow to peel me some grapes.
	But please, go ahead. I'll start the lavender oil.
	Okay. I just can't tell you how much happier I am now, just compared to even a year ago.
	It's... It's like you turned out to be right, and on the other side there is just almost a drug-like glee, like nine times out of ten.
	I mean, there's a few annoying little things that happen here and there, but it's like a nine out of ten times.
	Just with all the changes that I've made, I'm endlessly...
	Forever just in your debt because you've gotten me here just through the guidance and I know I've done all the work but without you I wouldn't have known what work to do.
	Well I appreciate that.
	I sort of view philosophy and maybe myself to a smaller degree You know, it's kind of like there are some landing lights below on the fog.
	You've got to do all the landing, right?
	You've got to stick that landing, and you've got to coast to a stop, and you've got to not go nose-grounded, nose-down into the tarmac.
	But there are a few lights which can really, I think, help guide.
	And so I know it's you with the sweaty hands on the stick, so to speak.
	But I really do appreciate that.
	And just for those who don't know anything about Nate, you've been in, I think...
	Floating around philosophy and psychology, at least in sort of this aspect of the conversation, sort of self-knowledge and philosophy, two and a half years?
	Am I right about that?
	No longer. Three and a half.
	Three and a half years, right. Almost as long as the show.
	Almost as long as the show. And yeah, because I've been doing this for, it's coming up for four years now, two and a half years full time.
	We've had a number of conversations which I think have been helpful.
	You had an engagement.
	You ended up ending that.
	You also ended a couple of other relationships.
	You've done a lot of therapy.
	Are you still in therapy? Is that right?
	No. I've graduated from that, I think.
	I do wonder if I may need some, as you suggested once, when I When I finally start dating again, I haven't met anybody.
	I did mention something in an email to you about meeting someone that I was interested in, but that's a whole other conversation.
	I remember a conversation where you were saying that you only had a few seconds or minutes of happiness a day.
	I'm incredibly thrilled.
	That, you know, self-knowledge and therapy has helped.
	And I mean, I believe that it does.
	I mean, it's been my path.
	It's been the path of a number of other people that I know both personally and through the web.
	And it does feel like you're just never going to get there sometimes when you're slugging up the side of that mountain using, you know, your teeth and freezing your eyelashes to glacial rocks to pull yourself up.
	It does feel like you're never going to get there.
	And There's lots of people saying, come on, you'll do it.
	It'll happen, right? And you're like, no, it won't happen.
	It's never going to happen. I'm never going to get there.
	And then it's like, boom! Oh, wait, I'm here.
	And it is an amazing thing.
	And you can't communicate it very well other than through encouragement ahead of time.
	But sorry, go on. I just can say, I can comfortably say in comparison to what I said, like three or four minutes a day, and now it's like 23 hours and maybe 30 minutes.
	And 30 minutes of that is where I might stub my toe or it might rain while I'm on my bike.
	I'm not prepared.
	I think it got too cold once and I didn't bring my jacket to work.
	I'm not used to this cold weather now that I've moved.
	Just little stressful things like that that aren't really a big deal.
	23 and a half hours, maybe some of that I'm sleeping, but I may be dreaming.
	You can be happy in your sleep too, right?
	Yeah. Well, that's fantastic.
	I'm enormously thrilled, and it is a ridiculous thing for me to say.
	As you say, I mean, you've done almost all the work, so it's a ridiculous thing for me to say that I'm proud, but I'm impressed.
	I think I'm honored to know you.
	I'm impressed at the work that you've done.
	I would certainly commend your therapist and commend the work that you guys have done together.
	I would also commend your Willingness, because you were definitely a serial monogamist, to say the least, right?
	I would, you know, hugely respect that.
	I hugely respect the...
	I know that you were never particularly strong on that way, but I, you know, some of the self-medication that you were doing, I hugely commend you for ditching all of that.
	I just, you know, it's just a beautiful and wonderful thing to see.
	And I just, you know, congratulate you and enormously impressed.
	And I am enormously...
	Thrilled to have been any kind of part of that.
	So that's my massive kudos to you.
	Well done. Oh, and I got a tenant for my house already.
	Oh, fantastic. I've been here.
	And they signed on a two-year lease.
	So I'm totally set.
	It's like $50 more than what I pay.
	Well, that's fantastic.
	Yeah, it's just...
	Like, I love being here, up here, closer to the other people who are doing the same thing.
	It's just wonderful.
	And just to sort of segue from all of this, now that I've, you know, loaded all this rank praise on top of you, segue what Marisa was talking about to some degree, I think, just in certain principles, but...
	This is something that I've been hesitating on, on having a conversation with you until I've gotten everyone else's experience.
	No, sorry, this is something that you had emailed me about, and I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to have the convo.
	Do you want to do it outside?
	Oh, no, no, no, no. Sunday show?
	It's not the same one. Not the same.
	Okay, sorry, go ahead. I already processed a lot of that, so we may or may not benefit from having that conversation.
	I don't know. Yeah, just that now.
	This is a different topic, something that I've been sort of holding out on because I just wasn't sure what everyone else's experience was.
	They've said that they share the same experience quite often, and I know this just rationally and empirically, just based on even what you just said at the very beginning of the call, just to acknowledge all of that.
	It can't be your responsibility.
	These feelings, I can't lay the responsibility on you.
	And maybe, you know, I'm open to the possibility that you are, but I just, it wouldn't, I can't imagine how.
	But there's a degree of insecurity that I still sometimes feel And I don't know if this is because of the respect I have for you as someone who has a great degree of credibility with me.
	And, of course, credibility, earned credibility, I guess, is how you gain a sort of authority.
	So, in a way, you're sort of an authority figure, at least in the area of philosophy and life and happiness.
	I think so. You have all the credibility there with me.
	I feel a certain degree of insecurity just because we've met several times.
	We've known each other for a while.
	Sometimes I feel invisible to you.
	I've tried putting myself in your shoes.
	Just to try and get an idea, but sometimes I feel so, um, sort of like jealous or insecure or, um, what is the feeling?
	Oh, a great degree of anxiety, like when someone else gets praised and, um, like, oh, well, where am I? You know, what, why am I? Why doesn't he respond to my...
	Oh, he responded to your email.
	Why isn't he responding to my email?
	And just putting myself in your shoes, I can imagine you're getting 3 billion emails a day, and you're overwhelmed, and you've got Isabella, and you're putting most of your attention to her, thank goodness.
	And I have all these reasons, you know, why that just...
	And telling myself that over and over again doesn't seem to just Make these feelings go away.
	Sure, sure. And I don't know why they don't just go away, no matter how much I rationalize, no matter how much I look at the empirical evidence, no matter how much I look deep, I still feel like, like, oh, Steph thinks,
	like, I get these thoughts in my head that say, oh, Steph thinks I'm annoying, or Steph thinks I'm, like, I annoyed him too much with all of my problems over the past three years, and I was just too much work, and I was too problematic, or I was too this or that.
	I don't know what your experience is.
	You told me this at the beginning of the call to some degree, but is that your experience of me?
	That you've burdened me with too many problems and you're annoying?
	Yeah. No.
	No. No.
	I mean, I can share some of my thoughts if you like.
	And first of all, I mean, that's a tough thing to bring up.
	And I really do appreciate you bringing that.
	I mean, it's a very vulnerable and honest thing to bring up.
	And I really, really just want to respect and honor you for bringing that up.
	That is a difficult, difficult topic to bring up.
	So, you know, again, kudos and fantastic for doing it.
	And I don't want to interrupt if you have more that you want to say, but I'm certainly happy to give you some of my thoughts on it.
	Well, I don't want to unacknowledge that we've had We've scraped across this...
	I guess we've touched on this topic before very lightly in the chat room one time, and I go back and reread that every time I feel this way.
	You may not remember.
	You've had so many conversations.
	There was a conversation about my insecurity around you that I was saying That it was sort of a self-attack on my self-esteem and it was keeping my self-esteem down because I was saying Steph is virtuous and Steph doesn't want me,
	therefore I'm bad. But that hasn't helped for some reason and these feelings are still there and so I guess that's all I have to add.
	So, shoot.
	Right, okay. I mean, So I'm not going to explain the logistics of, you know, I have, a lot of people have had conversations with me that may have been the first time, it may have been, and I think for a lot of people it has been the first time,
	where they have felt, you know, really listened to, really connected with, that somebody has, you know, zeroed in on something that is useful, whether it's in philosophy or self-knowledge or whatever, and they've felt sort of really connected for the first time, and that can be quite a problem.
	It's both an exciting and a painful experience, right?
	Because it's like, you know, really connected with someone, but at the same time, I also have to acknowledge the lack of connection that I may have had hitherto, right?
	So that first connection is really, really quite...
	Quite intense for some people.
	And so I fully understand that.
	It kind of opens up a kind of hunger that sometimes people didn't even know they had, right?
	Like if all you've had is white bread and then someone gives you a lovely steaming garlic baguette or something, then it's like, well, I didn't know that white bread sucked until I tried the baguette, so to speak, right?
	So I can understand that people who have that kind of connection, if it happens to come through me, it may come through other people, but if it happens to come through me, there is that desire for connection that is associated with the conversation with me.
	And there's a feeling that if I'm not participating or if I'm not responding to, you know, in whatever particular time frame, and Lord knows I'm not perfect in this, right?
	I mean, I have to sort of snatch time for FDR from, you know, that's going to fade from Isabella, right?
	So that's going to change over time and I'll be able to spend more time in the future.
	But it's a real challenge at the moment.
	That will diminish, I think, within the next few months, but it's certainly the first year.
	She's also, I mean, just an enormously exciting handful.
	So, so I think there is that sense of like, uh, there's this connection and then, uh, there is this, you know, feeling of perhaps rejection or being ignored or something like that.
	That's very painful for people because that kind of need has been awoken or that hunger or that connection has been awoken.
	And then it's not reciprocated in a way that is satisfying for me.
	Right. And I certainly always apologize to people where I can for that.
	Um, but, uh, So there's that aspect, which I think that I understand.
	But the thing which I want to really sort of get across to you, Nate, is that there's nothing that you can look for in me that you cannot get from yourself or from others.
	There's nothing that I could conceivably bring to the table in any conversation or relationship with you that you cannot fundamentally and eventually get from yourself.
	And I know that that's not particularly helpful.
	It's like, well, how do I get it from myself?
	I understand that that doesn't solve the problem, right?
	But fundamentally, you know, it is very important, and this is true for everyone, and I'm not saying everyone does this, but for the people who do, it is very, very important to not look upon me as any kind of authority, to not look upon me as anybody who can provide answers that you cannot provide for yourself.
	I mean, there's a reason I say everyone's a genius and everyone's a philosopher, right?
	Right? There is nothing unique or special or magical about my brain that can produce all of these things that other people, right?
	You don't need me for garlic bread.
	You can make your own garlic bread and it will actually taste better because you'll have control over that rather than, I hope Steph throws some garlic bread at me as he bikes past my house or whatever.
	But I think that's really, really fundamental that There is an inevitable tendency, and I've gone through it with other thinkers, right?
	I went through it with a bunch of other thinkers that I've talked about in the show, to look upon those, well, they have the answer.
	They have the answer.
	They know, right?
	I just need to look it up. And I'm not saying that's you in particular, but there is this idea that there is an authority out there who can provide us with the solutions or with the answers.
	The problem is that makes us passive, and that makes us wait.
	I'm sorry? I've come to recognize that there are a lot of questions that I think of to ask you that I realize I can answer them on my own.
	Yes, exactly. That's why you hear less and less from me because I've already figured it out and I don't need to ask you and I'm starting to realize my capacity for being able to solve problems and this carries over into work because I'm in a problem-solving job.
	Where I'm continuously solving problems.
	And I less and less have to rely on co-workers and I can figure it out for myself.
	And if I really, you know, if I've tapped all the resources, I've talked to everybody, then yeah, then I'll talk to someone I think is an expert.
	And yeah, and maybe I'll be able to help.
	That's kind of what I'm doing right now. And maybe I'll be able to help and maybe I won't.
	But the real thing that I'm always trying to achieve is, you know, not to give people fish, blah, blah, blah, to teach them how to fish.
	It's that old cliche, but it's really, really true.
	And that is why, you know, when I'm having conversations with people, then they say, I don't know.
	And I say, I don't accept that as an answer.
	Right? What I'm saying, like if somebody says, I don't know, I could, if I wanted to go in and say, well, here's the answer.
	But what would that do? That would affirm that when they come across something that they don't know within themselves or claim not to know, that they need someone outside them to tell them.
	So you've heard me about a million times and people say, well, I don't know.
	I say, yes, you do. And that is to get them to understand that they do have the answers within themselves.
	And there's nothing wrong with getting help from an external person to stimulate and get you to understand how much you actually know and understand and all that.
	But fundamentally, I am in no way, shape, or form any kind of authority.
	And I think, I mean, I really, really tried to learn from the intellectual movement that I have the greatest respect for outside of, you know, classical Greece, which is the objectivist movement.
	The degree to which that movement did not work was the degree to which...
	I'm not putting myself in the same category, but I'm just trying to sort of look at what didn't work.
	And it didn't work because, well, A, because it was called objectivism and not philosophy, which I've always resisted any kind of label for what we're doing here.
	But also fundamentally because there was too much focus on conclusions and there was not enough focus upon the process of reasoning and of self-knowledge.
	And, I mean, a bunch of other reasons, too, which I've got a sort of podcast series on, you know, things that went wrong with objectivism, which is relatively minor relative to the degree that objectivism was just fantastic and amazing and groundbreaking and more original than I can ever claim to be.
	But what went wrong was that people got into a set of conclusions, into a kind of dogma.
	And that's why there has not been a lot of expansion of objectivist thinking beyond what Rand and to some degree Picoff have done.
	And I think that's because there was an authority that she has the answer, Rand has the answer, or the intellectual heir of Picoff.
	The idea of assigning an intellectual heir is problematic.
	Everybody should be the intellectual heir of philosophy, not Leonard Picoff or whoever, right?
	Harry Binswanger or whoever.
	I don't have the memorizing a lexicon.
	Yeah, I mean, that's not the way to do it.
	That is not the way to do it.
	You know, I might be, you know, my goal is to just to get people to understand just how amazing and powerful they really are.
	How fundamental, what fundamental geniuses everybody is.
	And that is not, I don't succeed in that if people think that they have to come to me for any kind of answer.
	Right? And they don't.
	I want to show them that answers are very possible.
	Because if someone outside, like if I'm on a call with someone for like an hour...
	And I can give them a couple of mind-blowing things about their own life or whatever.
	It's only mind-blowing because they get it, because it connects with them, right?
	And you hear that in the shows that go well, right?
	Like I say something that make a connection, whether, you know, about somebody's history or some sort of philosophical thing.
	And they go, aha, like, wow, you know, cool.
	And they get it, right? But that's their connection.
	And I want to say that if somebody from outside your life can come in and in an hour or half an hour, give you that kind of connection, then you who've lived in your own body for decades can do a million times better.
	But you just need to know that it's possible, that it's available.
	And so it is really the internalization of that kind of potential for making connections for reasoning that I want to provoke, in a sense, in people, but not in any way, shape, or form to have them say, well...
	I can't solve this problem and therefore I have to go to somebody else.
	Now, that can happen in terms of friendships, right?
	Because friendships are portable and friendships, you can have a relationship with a friend that you can't have with me because I'm, you know, a guy on the internet, right?
	Who's got six million other things going on.
	Right. So it is really around being able to reproduce that kind of problem solving within you.
	And that's why I say there's nothing, there's no authority in me.
	There's no answers that you need me for.
	Now, if you really run up against the wall, yes, I'm more than happy to help if I can, if I can see around that wall or whatever.
	But the point of that is not to say, well, the next wall you come to...
	Talk to Steph. The point of that is to say, I've now gone over four walls, so the fifth wall I can do, like I can do, because I know.
	I know there's something on the other side of the wall, and I just have to be creative and talk with people to figure out what it is.
	Right. Right.
	And I know you told Emily the other day that you have to kind of earn the right to say, I don't know.
	Like you were saying, go...
	And tap all your resources.
	Try to think of every possible scenario.
	And if you know you're butting your head against the wall constantly and you're not coming up with anything and you've made every effort that you can consistently think of and it's become more of a time-consuming situation where the problem kind of needs to be solved sooner than later, then that's That's kind of the point where you would go outside of yourself and consult with friends and consult with...
	Well, no, I think friends, it's okay.
	I think friends, you know, because they're part of your life and it's a reciprocal, affectionate, positive relationship.
	I think friends is the start.
	And I've been sort of... I mean, sorry to interrupt you, but I just wanted to get this thought out before you continue because I've been a little hesitant to bring this up, right?
	I mean, the purpose of FDR, the purpose of this conversation is to leave it behind, right?
	The purpose is to go out into the world with confidence and self-knowledge and spread good, not by listening to podcasts, but by being strong and powerful and virtuous and vulnerable and honest and whatever it is, present, authentic in the world.
	The purpose is to leave the podcasts behind.
	And that doesn't mean you can't sort of enjoy them.
	I think some of them are entertaining and they can have some content that is valuable.
	But the point is to internalize the process of self-exploration, of self-knowledge.
	And you can't achieve virtue in the world by listening to podcasts.
	You can only achieve virtue in the world by being virtuous in the world, right?
	So the purpose of FDR, and it's silly to talk about the purpose of FDR, but the purpose of FDR is for you to leave, to move on.
	And the reason I don't like to bring that up is then people start to say, well, maybe I should have left by now.
	Well, so-and-so's left, but I'm still here.
	Maybe I'm stupid. Maybe I'm not getting it.
	Maybe, you know, I don't want people to start self-attacking that way.
	But now that we're in the show 1500 almost, right?
	I mean, I think it's okay for people to understand that the purpose is to move on.
	Now, I hope that when people move on, That they will, you know, maybe say to people, here's a good resource that I found really helpful and point them towards the show.
	I hope that people who've moved on will continue to subscribe or to donate.
	I mean, obviously, I hope that and some people do that, right?
	People who haven't been around for a long time, they still donate or they still will.
	And why? Because they want other people to get the benefit of what they got, right?
	And so it's why, you know, if you really loved your university, some people will still donate to it after, whatever, right?
	I mean, that's completely optional, like all the donations are.
	But the purpose is to have internalized it, to have become a philosopher rather than listening to philosophy shows, to have become authentic rather than to listen to somebody prod and talk about authenticity, to become vulnerable rather than listen to people be vulnerable in a podcast, and to spread virtue Not by referring people to a website, but by living virtuously in the world.
	And that really is the purpose.
	And that means completely leaving me behind.
	Completely leaving me behind.
	Completely leaving me behind as an authority and becoming your own authority.
	Oh, right. Right, and I think...
	Yeah. And that's tough to do.
	I think that does explain some of my tendencies I don't know why I've done this, but I haven't been posting a lot on the boards.
	I'm just spending a lot of time with friends here in Philadelphia, especially over the last three weeks since I've been here.
	And I do have these mind-blowing...
	Just this morning with Greg 1 and Greg 2, I have a conversation at Sabrina's where I do get the mind-blowing situation.
	We had a One of those moments that I feel listening to the podcast sometimes.
	Exactly. And you can also then...
	Sorry to interrupt again.
	This is completely rude. First of all, we call them the Borgreg.
	That's the name of them. But you can, with the perceptiveness that you have into yourself and the fluidity and intelligence and wisdom that you have brought to your own knowledge of yourself and the world...
	Then when you're out in the world and you see somebody or hear somebody who has an issue that you can maybe help them zero in on, you can give them that kibble, right?
	You can throw some sardines into the fish tank that way, and that helps spread, right?
	But that's the purpose, right?
	Sorry, go on. Oh, that's basically...
	I think this has definitely helped me to understand...
	Why? I think this may help in my feelings surrounding you because you're right.
	You were the very first experience I ever had at someone connecting with me and taking an act of curious interest in me.
	And someone that had a great deal more knowledge than I had, at least conscious knowledge that I had at the time.
	And that, in a sense, is sort of like what I never got as a child, where the parent is supposed to have, you know, a significant degree more life experience and knowledge.
	And to take an active interest in the child.
	I didn't get that degree of curiosity, that degree of connection, that safety, that feeling of safety and being vulnerable where I can come out of my shell and take that first step off what looks like a giant chasm into an abyss.
	And it turns out I'm flying and I'm walking across a bridge that I just didn't see.
	To understand that that first experience, what I might have experienced to some degree in therapy, but I don't think since You were the first experience, since I got into therapy after that, it was...
	I didn't get that with the therapist, I don't think, to the same degree, because you were the first taste of it.
	And so I'm...
	The first impressions go a long way, the first little nibble, and the degree to which, you know, you understand philosophy and psychology, I think you do have considerable...
	I'm not a ratio of effectiveness compared to even my own therapist and I thought she was really skilled at least at the therapeutic relationship.
	And I thought the relationship with me and her and I felt comfortable and safe and I was able to be open and honest and formal with her.
	But you do have all the ideas and the philosophy and all of that.
	I'm not saying that you're a therapist, but I think you get what I mean.
	Yeah, I mean, I think that I do, and I certainly really appreciate what you're saying.
	I mean, you're very kind, and I am aware that the second baguette isn't going to be as mind-blowing as the first one, right?
	But if through that kind of connection people get a hunger for it, then they can then go into therapy.
	I mean, that is fantastic to me.
	There is no doubt that...
	There is, to some degree, whether, I mean, I don't want it, I don't seek it, I don't pursue it, and I certainly don't exploit it, but there is, to some degree, for some people, an inevitable aspect of father vigor to me, you know, and I say that knowing that it opens up all kinds of minefields, but there is, I mean, just based on what people have communicated to me, that is a reality.
	It is something that I constantly try to undermine by making fun of myself, by being silly, by not being an authority figure.
	It's something that I'm very, very persistent in trying to undermine.
	But it is an aspect of what is occurring.
	And it's because I'm older, for some people, bald.
	Who knows? But there is that aspect of it.
	And I think one thing...
	And I fall into...
	Oh, sorry. No, go ahead.
	I fall into the pattern that I went through growing up of competing for attention, I think.
	Right, and so if people have that, then if they don't get response from me, it may trigger things from their own parents.
	I mean, I'm aware of that and consistently working to undermine it.
	But I think that one thing that is different...
	Is that if there is that aspect to...
	And I don't think it's dominating, but there are going to be some elements of that.
	I mean, I think that's...
	My mother once said that she resented Ayn Rand because Ayn Rand had become my mother instead of her.
	And, you know, again, that's all kinds of complicated to talk about.
	But I think there is that aspect of it for some people in certain situations.
	And I think what's different is that, you know, for me at least, the ideal of parenting is...
	That your child outgrows you.
	That's the whole point of parenting, is that your child outgrows you.
	And I think for a lot of people, that has not been their experience of parenting, right?
	Certainly my parents didn't want me to outgrow them.
	In fact, they, I think, kind of wanted to keep me in a relatively little and convenient box for their needs.
	But certainly not to have me...
	Yeah, have me sort of...
	And so I think the reason why it's tough for people who have some element of, you know, parental projection going on with me, is that...
	I do want people to, you know, leave me in the dust.
	I do want people, you know, so that we can, you know, whoever, turn to whoever's coming down the road, right?
	But I think that aspect is tough for people, right?
	Because to sort of have a sort of pseudo-parental figure say, you need to, you know, grow up, grow on, move out, blah, blah, blah, I think is quite different from, and with encouragement, with, you know, you can do it, you know, here's your support system if you want it, your therapist, you know, go get one and all that kind of stuff.
	I think it's tough for people because it's very different from the parenting that a lot of people have experienced in the past, if that makes any sense.
	It does. My experience during my childhood was that my mother, especially, and my father, to a slightly lesser degree, would try to solve all my problems.
	And I was never allowed to actually solve my own problems, so I never had any confidence in solving problems for myself.
	And, you know, I kind of figured that out when reading The Parent Effect in this training book, that I didn't get that ability.
	They did not train me on getting out there, and I don't think they wanted me to get that.
	They wanted me to remain dependent and remain Helpless and independent and powerless.
	And to some degree they succeeded for quite a while.
	And there is a bittersweet element of that kind of growth.
	And I'm not going to attempt to reduce listeners to my daughter.
	That's a ridiculous thing. But just speaking as a parent, there are things that she no longer needs me for.
	Right? There are just things that she no longer needs me for.
	And I'm incredibly proud of that.
	But it's also sad.
	Right? Because it was a great phase, right?
	Like, she can... She doesn't want me to feed her anymore.
	She doesn't want Christina to feed her anymore.
	Right? She wants to feed herself.
	That's what she wants to do. And she actually will reject...
	Even if she's hungry, she will reject food if she doesn't get to feed herself.
	Because she wants to, you know, be a big person and do it herself.
	And I'm thrilled.
	I mean, I'm really genuinely thrilled.
	And I wouldn't want it any other way.
	But it's also a little bit sad.
	You know, I think about this when I'm sort of carrying her around and so on, that...
	I mean, there'll be a time I won't be able to lift her, right?
	And I will absolutely think back and think what a wonderful time it was when she could nestle into my arms and that kind of stuff.
	So I want her to grow up and to do things for herself.
	But at the same time, it's bittersweet.
	And I think that may be what you're experiencing when you look at the internalization of philosophy rather than, you know, looking at me as any kind of authority.
	Right. Right.
	You mean like growing up for the past three years?
	That whole process?
	Well, when you think about being your own authority and not relying on, you're not needing me or not needing anything to do with this, right?
	Having your support system, your community, your friends, whoever, right?
	Right. I mean, how does that feel when you think about taking that step or having that internalization where I am no longer in any way deeper or richer or wiser or smarter than you?
	In some ways it's anxiety provoking and others it's...
	It gives me a lot of confidence and self...
	It gives me that feeling of efficacy that feels amazing.
	Yeah, it's bittersweet, right?
	Yeah. Yeah.
	Because I feel like, oh no, like the next thing that comes up, I'm not going to be able to tackle this problem because it's too big.
	Right. And yet, I overcome it.
	I thought this move to Philadelphia and trying to get my house, you know, situation situated, and get out of that bear trap of, you know, that I was keeping myself in, or the self-created bear trap, I think is one word for it.
	Right. And sorry, that's one of the reasons why I... Sorry, go ahead.
	The problems that came up seemed insurmountable until I listed them all out and then I started taking them one by one and realizing that some things didn't need to be done until later and I began to feel some efficacy and okay I can check that off the list and move to the next problem and not harangue myself for not getting this problem finished That day,
	Or, you know, just giving myself some time and some praise for the poems I did finish.
	And that whole, surmounting that whole thing, the whole move, getting in here, getting a job that we talked, the kind of job that I really wanted, that we had a conversation about a while back.
	the whole thing has been wow, I did all that?
	I'm just kind of amazed with myself and it feels great and it's like, what else can I do?
	Right. Right, right.
	Sorry, one sec.
	And all growth involves that kind of bittersweet.
	That's why I think processing ambivalence is so important.
	Sorry, James. I know we're spending a lot of time on this call, and I know that we have other people on the call.
	Yeah, we have a lot. We have a slew of callers in the drop-in, too.
	All right. So, sorry, Nate.
	I really appreciate that. We can talk further if you want, but you're absolutely right, James.
	I do apologize to the listeners.
	Let's move on to the next in the queue.
	We have a caller from area code 612.
	You are on the air.
	Go ahead. Yeah, please.
	And sorry to make you wait for so long.
	Please go ahead. Caller from area code 612.
	You're on the air. Hello.
	Okay, let's try this one.
	A caller from area code 643.
	You are on the air.
	This is Rick speaking.
	Oh, hi. How's it going? Very well.
	Am I on the air? You sure are.
	I'm sorry to make you wait for so long.
	You've got like five calls.
	Not at all. That was actually very worthwhile and I enjoyed listening to what Nate had to say.
	I'm interested in how Free Domain has developed.
	I'm listening up to 900 level podcasts and it seemed like I think it's around about the time that the t-shirts came out and that was part of the promotion and it seemed like The purpose of Free Domain Radio back then was to get people doing outreach.
	Has that changed, or was that a misunderstanding of mine?
	That has changed, yeah.
	There is certainly no particular focus on outreach, and it hasn't been for probably a year and a half or so, but actually more, I think.
	Yeah, I'm behind. Yeah, no problem.
	You're catching up, because my output is certainly down.
	Well, I'm glad because I've got a long way to go.
	What I was calling up from concerning, I've started going to therapy now and I've had three different therapists and I'm not quite connecting with these guys.
	The big problem I have is procrastination.
	I've listened to the three good podcasts about that and I've got some great theory coming from you, Steph, on that and I really enjoy it.
	I don't think I'm emotionally connecting with it.
	I've got great ideas, but I can't act on them, and I don't have that penny-dropping sensation that it really makes sense to me.
	And I talk about it with these therapists, and as I say, I've been through three, and they'll tell me to do things like I'll make up a schedule, and I show them my diary and say, look, I'm already doing that.
	And I talk about how when people come into my office here at home, I snap at them and I get really angry and I sort of blame other people for my problems and I also have that thing where I'm going to the airport and I get angry at other drivers and I get angry at other people but really I'm kind of ashamed at myself for leaving it so late and being the last person to get there and just making the flight.
	So I've got these problems but it seems like my therapist aren't hooking into it but you know they're telling me you know just shut the door and I'm saying I have these outbursts of rage when people come to my office and interrupt me, and she said, just shut the door.
	But that's sort of managing and coping with the problem, and I don't want to do that.
	I want to get to the roots of it.
	Yeah, I got this really weird mold that winks at me.
	Put a Band-Aid on it. Yeah, I mean, again, I don't know anything about your therapist, and I'm certainly no therapist myself, but there are two ways to approach these kinds of issues.
	One is to manage the symptoms properly.
	And the other is to go deep into figuring out what aspects of your history may have contributed to these particular outbursts of, you know, something may have been patterned for you as a kid that you saw this example of how people interacted with others or how people negotiated with others or didn't negotiate with others that gave you some kind of pattern that is being reproduced.
	And I think it's, you know, my...
	I tried to sort of make my list in willpower and it never worked for me fundamentally.
	But going deep...
	And you may want to look into a therapist who has, you know, some significant experience with, you know, deep psychology, deep sort of self-knowledge, really going into your history, figuring out what these patterns and feelings came from.
	And that would be my suggestion.
	I always find when I hear advice like this, and again, I know you're not giving me the whole story because we're limited in time, but I just, I find that Of course you've thought about closing the door, right?
	Of course you've thought about doing X, Y, and Z, right?
	I mean, when you say to somebody who procrastinates, it's like, well, break it down into smaller chunks and then do it bit by bit.
	And as if they've never thought of that, it's sort of insulting in a way, right?
	Of course you're a very intelligent fellow, right?
	You know that, right? So the issue is not what little tips can be given to you that can turn your entire life around in this area.
	It has to be something that is difficult for you, as it is for everyone.
	It has to be something that is not obvious.
	It has to be something that's going to be very challenging, because otherwise you would have done it already, right?
	It's not like, you know, shave up and down, not left to right, because you'll catch yourself.
	That's obvious, right?
	But the things that you're going to be dealing with in this area, my guess would be that it's going to be deep.
	It's going to be familial or caregiver-based.
	It's going to be historical.
	And it's going to be, you know, like lifting the Titanic, right?
	And that's why you need a therapist, need a coach who's experienced in that kind of stuff.
	And so I would not necessarily, if they're not working for you, right?
	And this is true of any relationship, whether it's therapeutic or any other kind of relationship.
	If it's not working with you, for you, the first thing I would do is sit down and say, it's not working for me and this is sort of what I feel and this is where my frustrations are.
	And see if you can reorient a therapeutic relationship closer to something that may be more productive if that's where you want to go.
	And if you can't, then of course you're the customer, right?
	You can find somebody who's going to go deep with you.
	Somebody who's going to strap on the bath escape and just go right down into the trench, right?
	Yeah, that's what I want.
	I think that's right. But as I say, I've been through three now and it's costing me.
	Is there something I can do?
	Because it feels like my real difficulty here is not having access to my emotions.
	And when I joined FDR, I made a big stink about that.
	I don't understand why you people think emotions are real or have any efficacy because they don't for me and I'm used to doing this Mr.
	Spock thing and it didn't seem like anyone could relate to me but now it seems like I'm far from alone and I've since heard you say that you were like that.
	Yeah, and it certainly sounds like you have access to some emotions like rage and frustration, right?
	So you just want to widen the repertoire a little, right?
	Have some more flexibility. Well, I would give the same conversation that you're having with me, you know, I would have with the therapist.
	I call somebody new or have it with your existing therapist first, you know, so that you can, you don't have to sort of spend money bringing someone else up to speed.
	Just have that conversation.
	Say, you know, these tips are not helping me.
	I really feel it's something maybe in my history, something deep, something, you know, can you help me at that level?
	Right? And let's go down.
	Let's figure out what I want to get to the root of this, you know, dissociation or whatever it is.
	I don't know, right? But whatever it is that's going on for you, you know, ask your therapist.
	Tell them what you actually want, what you actually need, what you think is really going to help you.
	And ask them to lead you through that process.
	And if they say, well, you know, I'm more of a, you know, I give tips and band-aids, then I think, you know, you have to.
	But I think it's also important to recognize that if you've ended up with three therapists like that, you're doing something too, right?
	Right? You're looking to stay at a certain level because if the therapist doesn't go deeper and you're okay with that and you continue to pay, then you kind of want to stay at that level too, in a way, if that makes any sense.
	Yeah, quite possibly. I've heard you do calls with people and they start out, you know, all steady voice and calm and pointing out facts and then it hits them.
	And I know that's not like a mechanical thing you can say, it's like, just add water.
	But how do you do that to people and how can I do it to myself?
	Well, I think the thing to do is, and I'm certainly happy to have a chat with you on a one-on-one if you think it would be helpful.
	I would definitely try talking things out with your therapist first.
	And again, I don't do anything to do with therapy, but I do have a good knacking for asking those annoying and persistent questions that do tend to help people get to the root of stuff.
	So send me an EM if you can't work things out with your therapist, and I would be certainly happy to have a chat if it would be of use to you.
	Yeah, well, I appreciate that.
	What do you think of sentence completion?
	I've got the Nathaniel Brandon Disowned Self book.
	I thought that might be the big answer.
	I'm a big fan of The Psychology of Self-Esteem.
	I've never found his other books to be quite as good.
	So if you haven't read that, I'd certainly recommend it because he really does talk about the value of emotions there.
	And I think I've read most of his other books, but they never had quite the impact on me as that first one did.
	Well, I'll do as you say.
	I'll have that talk with my therapist and I'd love to take you up on that if things don't work out.
	Thank you. I would certainly be happy to help, and thank you so much for the call.
	No worries. All right.
	Next, look at that. Look at that efficiency.
	It's shocking. It looks like we have a Skype caller.
	So the caller calling in from Skype, go ahead.
	You are on the air. Excuse me, that could be me.
	It is you. Yes, that's you. Okay.
	Yeah. Interesting.
	I've never come across your show.
	It's first time. Great stuff.
	One of the things that I found rather difficult going through the school of hard knocks, as it were, is coming to that realization that if you continually look for validation in other things or other people, you're never going to Sort of fill that hole.
	It's a difficult journey to get there.
	It can be lonely and it can be somewhat isolating, but it's also when you get there to that position, I find it very freeing in one's life.
	The other thing I find I think a lot of people are looking for leadership.
	And I think they're sort of grasping at straws.
	And when they come across somebody who has those qualities, they kind of go, oh my goodness, look at that!
	Wow! Kind of stuff.
	I I think that it's an interesting kind of journey onto trying to get some sort of a self-esteem built up in one's life and being able to say to yourself, I'm standing solid where I am and I have this kind of morals and I have these kinds of beliefs.
	I base them on fact and this is how I'm going to live my life.
	Regardless of what other people think or say or do.
	I was going to say something else that kind of left me there.
	Well, while you think about it, I just wanted to, I think I understand what you're saying.
	I just sort of wanted to reinforce it.
	I mean, there does tend to be a kind of mythological journey where you get tutored by someone.
	And certainly was the case with me, and other people have honored me with, you know, to whatever small degree that role as a kind of tutor or a mentor or whatever.
	And... I think the really important thing, what I sort of understood with the people that I looked up to and accepted and absorbed most of what was said as valid, what I sort of finally understood, with me it was Russian philosopher Ayn Rand, and what I finally understood was that if I judged Ayn Rand as credible, it was my judgment that she was credible.
	In other words, it was my judgment that That she had true and valid things to say.
	And if I could judge that she had true and valid things to say, it was not because I was judging Ayn Rand.
	It was because I was judging truth and validity.
	You know, reason and evidence and all that kind of stuff.
	And once I got that, then I did not need to look for answers in another person, but recognized that the degree of credibility that they had with me was the degree to which I was able to see and recognize truth from falsehood, right from wrong and so on.
	That internalization process is something that, you know, I really strongly encourage.
	That's really the purpose of education is to become more of who you are and to trust your own judgment with good reason, not just sort of randomly, but with reason and evidence.
	Yeah, yeah. I mean, in my younger years, in going to high school, we did this choir tour thing and I kind of, you know, chummed with a few of the fellas there and we got to a point where We had this meal and we were supposed to have a gift exchange and not spend over $10 and et cetera,
	et cetera. And then you were to, because you pick names and then you were to, because you knew who you had, and then you would buy that gift and then give it to them towards the end of the banquet.
	And the one fellow that I kind of, really decent fellow, very tall, very good natured and this type of thing, had given me a gift.
	I can't remember who I gave, but he gave me a gift, and I opened it up, and it was, you know that Charlie Brown little Snoopy character?
	Yeah. Yeah, it was Snoopy on a skateboard with sunglasses, and his shirt said, Joe Cool, and a little skateboard of wheels that actually rolled.
	And he gave this to me, and I was, like, I'm looking at this thing, and I like Snoopy.
	I mean, that's kind of nice, you know.
	It's cute. Great.
	And then he turns around and he looks at me and he says, you know, he says, I've always wanted to be you.
	And I looked, I said, Joel, I said, man, you don't want to be me.
	I said, I've got a pile of problems in my life.
	I mean, thanks, but, you know, I didn't say this part, but, you know, I almost said, you know, you're seeing something that isn't there.
	Right. Sorry to interrupt, but this just reminded me of this old New Yorker cartoon where one guy in a bar is talking to another guy in a bar, and he says, so guy A says to guy B, how's your life going these days?
	And the guy B says, it's not bad, it's just not much like Sting's.
	I saw an interview with Sting where he said, you know, I saw that and I actually put it up in my office because people don't understand that I've got hassles and problems and the guy had to take his accountant to court for stealing millions of dollars from him and his concerts go well or go badly or he's got sore throat.
	Got a cold, and he's got to go up and sing, and he's got a headache, and he's got to be on.
	I mean, he has his issues, his challenges, and his problems, but I just, you know, we look at people at their very best and shiniest moments and say, it's like that all the time, and therefore, like, we see the people on the red carpet at the Oscars and say, it's like that for them all the time, as opposed to the constant rejection that even the most popular actresses get.
	Yeah, yeah. Yeah, um...
	And personally, I live in a section of...
	I'm in Canada. I live in a section.
	It's a rural area. Very, very religious.
	And I'm not religious.
	And I find it rather difficult to find individuals that are somewhat of the same kind of mindset.
	And it's kind of...
	It's kind of bizarre in that respect.
	I did start a local humanist society in this area because there were some people that had supported me on a particular issue.
	And, you know, everybody's sending me these emails, etc., etc.
	And I said, well, let's get this humanist organization going and, you know, let's meet.
	And, you know, like 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, I think it was 10 people were emailing me and saying, yeah, we're going to meet there at the coffee shop on that particular day, blah, blah, blah.
	And so I'm going, hey, this is great, you know, like minds, because apparently statistics show that around this area there's about 200 people that have no belief system or religion or anything like that.
	So to make a long story short, the cafe there hoping to meet 10 people, there was only one guy.
	I know. I know.
	Getting free thinkers to congregate can be like herding cats.
	I have had some similar experiences, so I really do understand.
	And I really do hate to cut you off, but I know we have a certain amount of time left in the show.
	Not to pimp my website, but if you do want to chat with people who are atheists and rationalists and so on, freedomainradio.com, there's, you know...
	4,000 people who are members and there may be some people in your neck of the woods who I'm sure would be very interested to meet up.
	But yeah, I think the internet has really helped us feel a little bit less like stars in the night sky and a little bit more like a constellation that can see each other.
	So I hope that you'll find some resource somewhere because I think that kind of conversation is really, really important to staying happy.
	Yeah, thanks. Thanks, man.
	And I'll talk to you soon. Next!
	No, there is no more, I guess.
	Fell asleep, wandered off.
	American Idol must be on. Came up with a good song this morning.
	Isabella quite enjoyed it. Goes something like this.
	All I hear is baby yo gaga, baby yo goo goo, baby yo blah blah.
	It kind of goes on from there. But she did quite enjoy it, and I thought you might as well.
	Alright, well, we do have time for another caller, or we can either tail off, or I can ramble tangent.
	The call-in number is 347-633-9636.
	If you want to call in and chat, we have another 19 minutes.
	We've got somebody that's appeared. Bing!
	Here we go, like magic.
	Keep that number out again.
	Oh, and another one after that one, too.
	Okay, area code 732.
	You are on the air.
	Go ahead. Hello, Steph.
	Hello. Hi, how are you?
	I'm just great. How are you doing?
	I'm doing pretty good. I have a question for you.
	I think I heard somewhere that you, at some point, were managing an IT team.
	Yes. I mean, I don't know if this is relevant philosophy, but...
	And I was kind of doing that kind of job Not formally.
	I don't have a formal title, but I'm kind of like a team lead.
	And what I'm really having a lot of problems with is motivating people.
	And I was wondering if you have any advice on how to actually motivate people.
	I almost come to the conclusion that if they are not self-motivated, it's very hard to teach them.
	Right, right. What is your degree of motivation?
	I'm sorry? How motivated are you in your job?
	Well, I mean, I love my job.
	I like what I do.
	I wouldn't trade it for anything else.
	I mean, I love what I do and, I mean, getting paid for it is a good part, but, you know, it's not like I wake up in the morning and I understand the point of my job.
	You know, I actually, you know, I spend the hours...
	Some people say I'm a workaholic sometimes, but...
	And sorry to interrupt, but do you know why it is that you like your job so much?
	Like, if someone were to say to you, why do you like your job so much, what would you say?
	Because it makes me feel good about myself.
	Like, it gives some kind of meaning to...
	It's tough, right? It's a tough question to ask, right?
	But if you feel enthusiastic, and the reason I ask this question is, if you know why you feel enthusiastic about your job, right?
	Like, let's say that you're programming...
	Something which has MRI machines work better.
	I don't know, whatever. It doesn't matter what you do.
	But if you're doing something like that, you can say, well, whenever I type a great line of code or a great block of code, I know that I'm helping people get diagnosed quicker, not die, get healthier, whatever it is.
	Whatever it is that...
	If there's some value, and of course there's value in just about everything that everybody does, at least in the legal market, then there's some way in which your work, the work that you do with your keyboard, is having some tangible effect in the real world.
	It could be anything. If you're doing an air traffic control system, it's like fewer people will burst into flames in midair as their planes go crashing into each other.
	And I like the fact that people get to go home to their families rather than falling down in scattered bits of ashen body bits to the ground.
	So if you can connect what it is that people are doing to some real-world outcome that has some value, and even if it's, you know, like you're doing an online strip poker site or something, it's like, well, at least people are getting more comfortable with their own bodies, you know, like they're having some fun at the end of a long day, whatever it is, right? So the way that I tried to always put it was to help, you know, when you're working in a cubicle doing your code, you're meeting your spec, you're, you know, you're hitting your due dates, right?
	It can get really easy to forget that what you're doing has some tangible effect down the road that is beneficial to someone.
	Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing it, right?
	So when I worked in a company that helped people figure out how much maintenance their buildings needed, You know, it was a way of saying, well, here, you know, people will live in safer buildings, right?
	They will not end up spending a lot more money so they can give their employees, like maintaining their buildings, so they can give their employees more raises.
	So, like, there's things that you do that have some tangible impact somewhere in the world.
	And if you can get people to connect their typing with that end thing, then it's not just in a vacuum.
	It's not like they're just, well, I've got to do some typing and then I go home, but it's connected to some larger vision.
	That would be my suggestion, at least the first place to start.
	I see what you said. Where I'm coming from is that I see other managers or senior managers in the company and what they usually do is, for instance, when there is a lot of work, sometimes they just get upset.
	They kind of manage by fear.
	I don't want to be like that.
	Well, yeah. And I think the other thing to do is if there is a difficult or hostile work environment in certain areas, I think that you don't want to be the guy who just, you know, has that grin that's just like, everything's fine, you know, when everybody knows it's not.
	So I think that if people are being pounded down a little bit by aggressive or hostile management, I think you need to talk to people about that and say, you know, tell me what that's like for you.
	What is it like for you coming to work?
	You can't Accentuate the positive unless you accept the negative, I think.
	Otherwise, you just look like you're smiling as the Titanic goes down.
	So I think that you really have to accept the negatives that your employees are feeling, or the people you're in charge of.
	Accept the negatives, ask them what is problematic in the workplace, and then do what you can to try and resolve or fix that.
	I think people are naturally buoyant and quite happy, and it takes a lot of rocks falling on their heads for them to end up on their knees.
	So if you can pry a few loose, I think that their buoyancy will, to a large degree, float up.
	You know, also what I've observed in the couple of years, a few years that I've been in the industry, is that a lot of programmers that are kind of born here, they're a little bit more...
	Sorry, they're born here, like in the US. Born in the US, yeah.
	They're born in the U.S. or did their studies in the U.S., they're kind of more self-aware.
	I don't want to cast prejudices against anybody.
	We have a couple of programmers that came from another country.
	I don't want to say the country. You have to almost push them.
	You know what I mean? It's very hard.
	I don't know if it has to do with society, how they were brought up.
	Very different mindset, I guess.
	Sorry, you mean the people who come from outside the US, you kind of have to get behind?
	They don't have a lot of initiative? Yes, yes.
	Well, I mean, the first place that I would look is how they're raised.
	I mean, that's not the be-all and end-all of who we end up as, but it's always the first place to look.
	You know, you might want to read a little bit about the parenting practices or the educational practices in the culture where these people come from.
	And, I mean, I've had some people from other cultures People who I know have a lot of potential, but they won't take initiative, and that's because they get raised in environments where they're punished for taking initiative, either by the family or by the educational system.
	And that is just a challenge.
	You can't undo their entire histories, you know, but you can, I think, be more positive and encouraging and help them to get that way.
	But I think the first thing to do is to understand how they ended up that way.
	Now, I'm sorry to cut you off.
	I really do apologize. We have another caller, and I want to make sure we get to as many people as possible, given how Thank you for your luck.
	Yes, we have another.
	This is caller from area code 785.
	You are on the air.
	Hello, Steph. Oh, hi.
	Hi. I was calling.
	I had a question about an event that I was invited to recently, and I ended up not going, but I wondered if you had an idea on exactly how I should think about these sorts of events.
	I've been going to an atheist meetup.
	An atheist meetup, yeah, okay.
	And I've had some really great experiences there talking about politics as well as religion.
	But recently they were having a protest going into more of the activism thing.
	And usually I'm not a big fan of protests because they're directed politically.
	Which I think is kind of usually a waste of time.
	But in this case, it was, I don't know if you've ever heard of these, Hell House?
	Oh, I think you posted about this on the board, didn't you?
	That you were thinking of setting up a booth outside the Hell House.
	And the Hell House is where Christian children are brought to experience what you and I would be like a haunted house, but for them it's supposed to be their real destination if they don't obey the priests and the church, right?
	That's right. Yeah, and I mean, to me, this is entirely, I mean, my opinion, and it's a very strong opinion, though I can't say that I can prove it scientifically, this is entirely abusive towards children.
	It is incredibly destructive.
	It is monstrous. It is horrifying.
	It is bestial.
	And so your question is, would you want to set up a booth out front and just say, you know, this is wrong or this is not good to some degree, right?
	Yeah. Obviously, I think the best use of time would be personal conversations, but sometimes that's hard to get at.
	Sorry, you mean personal conversations with the children or with the parents who are bringing their children to this place?
	Or just with people in general.
	I'd like to be talking with people intimately about deep issues rather than just holding a sign.
	Right, and now I would assume that you're not thinking of enlightening the parents, but more around at least giving the children the idea that there are people out there who consider what is being done to them wrong.
	Exactly. Right.
	Yeah, I think it's a good thing that you're doing, if you're going to do that.
	I think it is a good thing. Children are incredible sponges, and they notice things, and they're particularly attuned to notice exceptions to rules.
	Any time you give a kid a rule, the kid will automatically look for an exception.
	So if you tell kids, don't throw things, and then you toss something into the garbage, the kid will immediately, bam, say, wait, wait, wait, you said, don't throw things, and you just threw something into the garbage.
	Kids are always looking for exceptions to rules, and it's a good thing that they're doing that, because they need to understand the world and how it works.
	So if you have a sort of peaceful protest for how these children are being, I think, psychologically abused...
	By being put into this hell house and saying, this is what's going to happen to you.
	And they're genuinely terrifying.
	I've seen some video footage of hell houses.
	Like, they scare me.
	And I'm not a little kid.
	And so they really are horrifying.
	All the more so because it is considered that they believe it's a real place, not just like a scary make-believe thing.
	So I think it's a good thing.
	You don't know the degree to which the kid is going to remember that, right?
	Because if the kid is growing up in a uniformity...
	In a uniform situation where everybody believes the same thing and there are no exceptions, it'll be hard for them to think of exceptions.
	But if they see somebody who is providing an alternate viewpoint, I really think that could sit.
	I mean, the purpose of atheist activism, and this is obviously just my opinion, I don't speak for, you know, I speak for one atheist, right?
	But for me, the purpose of atheist activism is, I mean, you can't convert the parents, or at least almost never.
	You can't, I mean, the children don't really have any scope For free thinking in that environment.
	But I think if the parents are aware that intelligent, skeptical, critical, outspoken atheists are out there poking holes at the doctrine, then I think they're going to be less certain and absolute about what they're teaching.
	Right? So, for instance, there's documentaries out there.
	I think it was Jesus Camp or something.
	I can't remember. But where the...
	The people who are Christians are training the children on how to answer questions about evolution.
	You know, say after me, kids, how do you know?
	Blah, blah, blah. That doesn't apply a million times more to God.
	And so because of evolution, Christians have to teach their children how to respond to evolution.
	And that is going to teach them a little bit about evolution, whether they like it or not.
	And in the same way, if atheists have strong and valid criticisms against the existence of God, it...
	It puts at least some superstitious parents in the position of having to respond to those arguments and the kid's going to then at some point going to be exposed to them or have some knowledge that alternate viewpoints exist.
	I know it's a very sort of tip of the spear, thin edge of the wedge, but I think it's the most effective thing to do.
	And I think that if you do that, I mean, I would be very interested to hear how it goes.
	And I certainly would, I mean, for whatever it's worth, I think it's a good thing to do.
	It was this Friday, but there's going to be another one.
	I ended up not going.
	I actually went to this haunted train ride at one of the disused rail sections.
	They're very common around here.
	I ended up taking my son.
	I couldn't help contrasting the experiences because it was designed for smaller kids.
	He was all interested in how they How'd they make it look like that?
	And we were looking at the mirrors. And how different that is from, you know, this is real.
	Right. Right, yeah.
	Yeah, it's like the difference between a magician's trick and thinking that the magician is actually sawing someone in half, right?
	If you actually thought that the magician was sawing someone in half, you would call the cops, you'd be horrified, you'd be watching a live dismemberment would be just beyond horrifying and ghastly.
	But because you know he's not, it's an interesting intellectual trick, and that's the difference between a haunted house like Halloween and a haunted house like you go here if you disobey me or the priest.
	Yeah.
	Now, you don't have to go, obviously, right?
	I mean, but for what it's worth, I think it would be a good thing to do, which doesn't mean that you have to do it, obviously.
	I mean, we're free, right?
	But I just, I mean, for what it's worth, I think it would be a useful thing to do.
	All right. Well, that does help, because I just want to make sure that I'm putting my efforts where it counts the most.
	All right. Yeah, and if you have a couple of brochures or, you know, anything, right?
	I mean, you can't obviously go and hand them to the kids, because I think that would probably be...
	A bit volatile, but, you know, it's there, it's available, and the kids will remember that somebody didn't agree.
	The kids will remember that someone didn't agree.
	And that's why, you know, where I can, if I see a child being aggressed against, I will intervene.
	Not because I'm expecting the parent to suddenly see the light, although I certainly will suggest to the parent that it gets some help with anger management or whatever, but at least the kid remembers somebody who disagreed, right?
	Yeah. That's crucial.
	I mean, one exception to a rule, right, if you've seen rocks fall down your whole life and you let go of a rock and it stands in midair, that's the rock you will remember most of all, right?
	You just need one exception to a general rule.
	It really is going to stick in your mind and can be an escape hatch later.
	Well, thank you very much.
	You're very welcome. And if you do go, I certainly would be very interested to hear how it goes.
	And if you do go again, I mean, I think it's a good thing to do.
	And congratulations on taking that stand.
	I'll, I think I probably will.
	All right. Best of luck. Best of luck.
	And yeah, I mean, if you ever, a parent who hears this, don't do it.
	Don't do it. Don't send your kids to those places.
	It is, I mean, it should be illegal.
	I mean, it should be illegal.
	It is, I mean, you're not allowed to take your kids to go and see live surgery because it would be traumatic to them.
	If you took your kids to a vampire movie and said that vampires were real and would eat them if they didn't finish the carrots...
	That would be terrifying and abusive to a child.
	These hell houses are even worse because it's an inevitable future based upon disobedience to superstitious edicts.
	And it is forever that the people believe they're going to be in this.
	And what kind of sadists run these things?
	It's just astounding. Anyway, don't get me started.
	So thank you very, very much.
	If you do get a chance, I have put out a video called Money Is You.
	If you get a chance, I would appreciate it if you could post it on relevant forums where people might be interested.
	Zeitgeist, Ron Paul, the Libertarian sites and forums.
	It's only five minutes long. I think it's quite a powerful indictment of what is really going on when your government gets into debt to other governments.
	And so I hope that you will get a chance to check it out.
	You can go to fdrurl.com forward slash money is you, one word, and you will see the thread with the video, and you can, of course, comment on it there.
	I'm very pleased with the video.
	It was quite a bit of work, but I'm very pleased with how it came out, and I hope that you will check it out.
	It's not a ramble fest. It's actually quite concise, so it will be shocking to people, but I hope that you will get a chance to have a look at it, and if you like it, if you could post it around, I would appreciate it, and I'm sure other people will as well.
	It's... Ten seconds.
	Ten seconds. Ten seconds.
	Thank you so much for listening and for watching, and have yourselves an absolutely scrumptiously delicious week, and I will see you here next week for the Freedom Aid Radio Sunday show.

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