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Jan. 14, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
31:16
1253 Let's Be Friends - Listener E-Mail

Processing a recent breakup...

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Good morning, everybody. Hope you're doing well.
It's Steph. It is the 14th of January 2009.
Isabella is 3.5 weeks old.
That is doing fantastically.
She gained a pound, which I managed to do pretty much every month during the first year of marriage, but she's managed to do it in only three weeks, which is something truly spectacular.
Alright, so this is a gentleman who has requested urgent feedback from issues he's having with his recent ex-girlfriend.
I would quibble with the term, but we will see what happens as we go into it.
He says, I was a Christian, then a deist, but you helped me to become an atheist.
I guess I've always been an anarchist.
Since I listened to one of your podcasts, didn't disagree with anything and said, well, I guess I've been an anarchist this whole time, so thank you a boatload for that.
I'm now up to podcast 225.
And you realize that by typing me an email, you're actually not getting to 226.
But that's okay. We can be magnanimous.
Anyway, here's the lowdown.
It's fairly convenient to describe since our relationship tended to advance by weekends.
I'm not... So they're seniors at the same college.
They're both young. He says he's in an experienced relationship.
She thinks she's experienced and she had a thing with some 30-year-old guy in another state.
So cute that they say 30-year-old guy like that's ancient.
Sorry, but he says, but in retrospect, her experience isn't really applicable.
He goes on. We sort of asked each other out at the same time, then went on a first date.
There we decided to watch a movie at her place the next day.
We did that a couple of times that week.
This is going to be old fogey guy.
Interjection 1 of 12 million.
I think that watching a movie at someone's house is not necessarily a great first date.
Because you're just going to be aiming at the make-out, right?
That's going to be inevitable.
I think dinner... In a public place where nudity at least is discouraged is a good place to start.
So you can actually talk and see if you actually like the person, right?
If the sexual tension comes in too quickly, well, I mean, there's a delightful degree of sexual tension at the beginning of any romantic relationship, but if that's what everybody's charging towards to talk about in RTR, it tends not to work very well.
It tends to cloud your judgment with hormones.
Anyway, so we did that a couple of times that week, watched a movie at her place.
Next weekend we were at her place watching the movie Amadeus Amadeus.
I put my arm around her.
She said she was wondering how long it would take for me to do that and said she had half a mind to grab my arm and put it around herself if I hadn't done it first.
She asked me if I liked her. I said yes.
She said she liked me too.
Later I asked what we were and she said oh we weren't a couple just dating.
Next weekend, my place, watching Terminator 2, I said it was only a matter of time before we were a couple, and she kissed my cheek after the movie.
She said we could be a couple if I wanted.
I said, sure. Then she said it'd be a long-term relationship.
Now, in terms of the signs that you get from people when you're just starting out to see them, I would not consider these signs to be particularly good.
I mean, she seems kind of...
Again, this is all nonsense opinion from internet guy, right?
So I just make that caveat once and then continue.
But she's not...
I don't see her as being vulnerable.
I don't see her... And I see her as wanting to remain in control.
And when you want to remain in control, you always remain distant from people, right?
So she says...
When you put your arm around her, that's a big step for a guy, right?
I mean, particularly when you're young.
It's scary, right? I mean, I have often tried to make that a little bit more comfortable by having a transition object, so what I'll do is start making out with a pillow and then move on to the woman, if she's still there.
It's a little less alarming for her.
Well, I shouldn't say that. That didn't actually seem to...
Okay, never mind. I'm only accidentally married, so let's keep going.
Yeah, I mean, what's going on here?
She's not asking you about anything to do with your thoughts or feelings, or at least you're not reporting that.
And when you do something that's scary, and a sensitive woman will understand that for a man to put his arm around, it's a step.
It's scary, right? It's like going in for the first kiss.
And there are women and men out there who will put off a lot of romantic signals, and then the moment you act on them, they'll be all like, what are you doing?
I mean, that can happen, and that's pretty rough.
But I would say she's very much in control, right?
So she says, oh, I was wondering how long it would take for you to do that.
That's not very sensitive to how scary it is to put your arm around a girl the first time.
And later you asked, this is very important that you RTR with yourself.
Sorry for those who are jumping in.
Real-time relationships, my book, I think.
He's read some stuff. I don't know if he's read RDR. But the question I would ask myself if I was in that situation or afterwards is to say, well, why did I need to ask her what we were?
Why did I feel the need to define the relationship the very same night I put my arm around her?
And that, I would imagine, I would guess, and again, obviously it's just a guess, but I would guess that that's because you felt her, she was elusive.
That she was distracted, that she was not present, that she may be dissociated, and you're like, well, what are we?
And you don't ask someone, what are we?
You negotiate it.
And you don't negotiate it up front, right?
You enjoy each other's company, right?
Because if you're there for the person, the sex or the physical intimacy flows from that because you like the person.
If you like the person...
Then you don't need to say, well, what are we doing here and what's going on and what are the parameters and what are, right?
I mean, when you think of your male friends, right?
You have some male friend that you really like.
I mean, you don't sit down and say, you know, I need to review the parameters of our relationship because I'm not sure if we're having a bromance or we're just friends or whatever, right?
So, I think that's just important to figure out.
And you asked her what we were.
She said, well, we're not a couple.
We're just dating, right? And, um...
Then the next week, after watching Terminator 2, after the movie she said, we could be a couple if I wanted.
I said, sure. And then she said, oh, it's going to be a long-term relationship.
She's not negotiating, right?
She's telling you what things...
She's being kind of elusive. You're asking for definition and she's telling you what it is.
That's a control, again, in my opinion.
This is a control stance that someone has.
That they're distant, that they're removed.
In dysfunctional relationships, almost always, there's someone who's chasing and there's someone who's retreating.
And those roles will change over time.
And we've all been in those relationships where the person seems kind of elusive, seems kind of distant, seems kind of unattainable, but then is very affectionate.
And then if we withdraw, they'll then start to come after us.
I mean, you know, sort of more affection.
But there's never a place where there's this genuine meeting of mutual affection that can occur.
And those kinds of relationships almost never seem to work.
So he goes on. Next Friday, last day of school, party at her place.
After everyone else left, we went to her room.
This was just our hangout place for us, so there were no sexual intentions.
Well, I mean, this is our truth.
I mean... That's just not true.
You're young, you're at a party, after the party's over, you're going into a bedroom.
Unless you regularly do this with your male friends, with whom I assume there is no sexual intention, whether or not it's talked about, whether or not it's upfront, that is a highly sexualized situation, right?
And, you know, where the penis goes, the heart will follow, right?
Which is why it's so important to really get to know someone before doing the nasty.
So, he goes on to say, we talked, and then I guess we were out of things to say, so I just said, guess what, and pecked her on the lips.
She kissed me again, over and over, then a few hours later we were still kissing, and she said she wasn't yet ready to go all the way.
Key part of that paragraph, in my opinion, when you say, I guess we were out of things to say.
You've known, I mean, you've known this girl for a while, but you've been dating for, what, a week or two, and you're out of things to say?
Hmm. I mean, I know it's tough, right?
Because you've put yourself in a situation which is a quagmire, right?
It's quicksand, right?
Because my response to dating someone for a week or two and then running out of something to say is to say, hey, you know what's not working?
This dating, right?
Because... If you're out of things to say after a week or two, right?
But the problem is that you're in her bedroom late at night after a party.
You've been making out for hours, so you can't now just say...
Sorry, this is before you'd be making out for hours.
What are you going to say? Are you going to say, oh, you know what?
I don't think that this is quite right for me.
Because you're already in a very compromised, so to speak, situation, right?
If you've run out of things to say or whatever, if you don't have much to say.
Uh-huh. She kissed me again over and over a few hours later.
We were still kissing, and she said she wasn't yet ready to go all the way.
That struck me as obvious, since I wasn't even ready to go all the way, and I'm a guy.
But see, here's the thing, my friend.
If you don't want to go all the way, why are you kissing for hours in a woman's bedroom late at night?
That just seems odd to me.
So he goes on, So I said, I didn't have plans like that and didn't want to pressure her into anything.
Then we went to sleep in her bed.
bed we just shared the bed.
Sorry, we just shared the same bed because she thought she had locked her key in her car and thus couldn't drive me home.
And so I had to stay there or else get a cab anyway.
And, you know, given what happens later, I don't think you could have invented a cheaper cab fare ever, right?
Oh, I don't have cab fare, so I have to stay in bed with you.
You guys been going out a week or two, you know?
This Gandhi co-sleeping arrangement?
Anyway, he goes on.
The next morning, we woke up and made out, and then she told me that a few years ago she had a thing for me and became depressed when I wasn't interested.
She told me she dreamed and fantasized about me and said she'd buy birth control pills to prepare for next semester.
Then we made out again, and by the time we were finished, neither of us was wearing anything above the waist.
Then, while calling the locksmith, she found the keys in her coat pocket, which we thought was pretty funny.
The day after that, I left for winter break, and we talked on the phone every two of four days.
Now look, I mean, this is just the basic, and again, if you haven't read Real Time Relationships, they could be really helpful for you.
A woman who...
Dangles the vajayjay, right?
Is not somebody with self-esteem, right?
It's just not. It's like a guy who has to show up in a Maserati in order to feel good about himself.
Well, he's got a Maserati-sized hole in his self-regard, right?
And a woman who dangles sexuality early on and in this kind of very intense way...
You know, this is a guarantee.
It's not going to work, right?
Because she doesn't feel like she's worth much without sexuality.
And if you respond to that vajayjay dangle, then you are confirming to her that you do not hold her in high regard, right?
Because, and again, this would be very advanced and you're young and so on, right?
But, I mean, if I was interested in a woman, she brought sexuality up that explicitly that early, Then I would say, well, tell me a little bit about...
Do you feel that that's really important?
Do you feel like... It's really important to talk about sexuality.
I mean, do you think, I mean, is your concern that I won't be interested if you're not sort of dangling a semester of hot, unprotected sex in front of me?
Do you think that it's not, I'm not going to be interested if that's the situation?
Or, you know, just be curious and ask, you know, ask about her history, you know, and so on, right?
What's her sexual history been?
And this is always a good thing to ask, of course, before you make the beast with two backs with anyone.
Excuse me. So, after four weeks, she dumped me.
Because she's busy next semester.
No, seriously, he says. She also said that she liked, but didn't love me.
And I'm very sure that didn't have anything to do with dumping me.
Not sarcastic. Of course, she gave me the We Can Still Be Friends routine.
Now, with all due respect and sensitivity to your heart, this is deranged.
I mean, this is nuts.
Just so you can put it in perspective, and I'm sorry that nobody has stepped you through this before, and I say this with all sensitivity because I got involved in some nutty situations when I was younger and which someone had told me, right?
But this is nuts.
I mean, you've been dating.
For a grand total of a week or two, maybe two weeks, and then you are separate, and then four weeks she says, well, I don't love you.
But, but you've been going out for six weeks!
Why on earth is love coming up even as a criteria?
A criterion for the relationship?
Why would that even be a question?
Of course she doesn't love you after two weeks of dating you and four weeks of long-distance nonsense, right?
I mean...
Anyway, so this He goes into a little bit more.
He actually makes a great point here, I think.
He says, I believe the main problem is that she is focusing on the concept relationship too much and not enough on us just enjoying each other's company.
And like you said, with regards to UPB, I've either nailed it right on the head or I am...
Way off. Am I incorrect in saying that being dedicated to a concept such as country or the relationship is foolish?
And he goes on to say, of course people should care about relationships with others, but sometimes I received the impression that she liked me, but spent most of her time focusing on this other thing called the relationship.
I think that's just a Absolutely brilliant observation.
A relationship, you can't aim at a relationship, just like you can't aim at virtue and you can't aim at health.
All you can do is Do specific things in the moment, which then will accumulate in what is called a relationship.
A relationship is the conceptual description of everyday interactions.
It's not something you can aim at or talk about.
You can only talk about specific things that are done in the context of two people interacting.
So you can't aim at a relationship.
You can only aim to treat people well or treat people justly or whatever and honorably and so on.
So I think that's perfectly brilliant.
Excuse me. Okay, so this is an exchange.
I will call this Bob and Alice.
It's not their names. So Bob says, the day after you dumped me, it occurred to me that regarding the reason you gave, you have probably known about that for the past two years or so.
I guess this is the love thing.
Obviously, we hadn't been seeing each other that long.
Unfortunately, this means that when we awkwardly, in a cute way, first asked each other out at the same time and then during our first date, you were planning on dumping me during winter break.
Two weeks later, when you said that we should be a couple and I agreed, and then you said that it would be a long-term relationship, you knew that you would end up dumping me over winter break.
A week after that, the last day before winter break, when you said that you weren't sure if you wanted to go all the way and I said that I didn't want to pressure you into anything, And then you said that you dreamed about me, said that you fantasized about me, and said that you should start taking birth control pills.
You were planning on dumping me during winter break.
He goes on to say, I asked myself why you would have done that, and the only explanation I could come up with is that your self-esteem was so low, Sorry, your self-esteem was low, so you figured you'd trick some guy into believing that he was your boyfriend and then tell him it'd be a long-term relationship.
After a week of him treating you as if you were his girlfriend, since he assumed you were, you calculated that your self-assurance was at a satisfactory level, so you decided to dump him.
"You tried to console me by telling me," he says, "that ours was the second longest lasting relationship you had been in." And there's a lot to say about this, right?
But I'm just going to try and...
Why you ended up in this situation is you took a series of steps and you didn't listen to the woman.
People are very honest if you listen carefully.
People are very honest. And you can hear this in the listener conversations that occur.
People are very honest.
They'll tell me right up front.
So you knew before you got involved with her, or very early on, that when you had been going out for a grand total of a few weeks, that this was the second longest lasting relationship she'd ever been in.
And that's important, right?
That's important. That's not just bad luck.
That's not just like, oops, you know, first guy hit by a bus, second guy abducted by space aliens, right?
Third guy got drafted into the Lebanese child army, right?
There's no...
She's telling you something really important when she says, I never have relationships that last longer than a few weeks.
And we all like to think, oh, I'm the exception to the rule.
I'm going to live forever. I'll never get sick.
I'm the exception to the rule.
But we're not. Right, so if somebody says to you, if a woman says to you, yeah, I never have relationships that last more than a few weeks, if you're interested in the woman, you can ask her some questions, but I guarantee you that's not going to change unless she does extensive, long-term, therapeutic work on herself.
As Jung has said, and which I completely agree with even more so now since I started FDR, the personality is extraordinarily inert.
It's like prodding a hippo with a toothpick to get the personality to move, to change.
The personality is extraordinarily inert.
The patterns that people have will repeat until there is significant intervention, a significant long-term focused, with the help of a therapist intervention.
There are no shortcuts to overcoming these kinds of issues.
So, of course she was going to dump you.
She dumped everyone before or they dumped her.
I mean, that pattern is not going to change, right?
Unless she has done...
And if you're interested in a woman and she hasn't started to do that kind of work and you've already moved past that, there's no possibility of a beneficial relationship because you can't be her therapist and she's going to need at least a year or two of focused, intense, concentrated work to even begin to undo these habits in a productive way and you're gonna sit around for a year or two hoping that she sticks with it hoping that it works at the end but of course during that year or two you're also growing right so you're just never gonna end up in the same place that's just so important and anyway she I don't want to read her response But she's,
you know, justifying all of this kind of stuff, saying, oh no, I was only talking about birth control pills because, you know, I can manage my periods.
I mean, that's all nonsense, right?
Nobody, no woman talks about that in the context of a sexualized situation.
She's not talking about her period.
I mean, that's clear, right?
I mean, there's not any issues to do with that.
But I guess, you know, this is the problem, right?
And I think why you want this kind of...
You want to get this woman, right?
You want to get her, you want to expose her, you want her to admit that she lied, and you're trying to corner her, right?
And this is not good.
Don't do it. Don't do it.
Don't do it.
Deal with the anxiety of how you got yourself into this very sad, unfortunate, and difficult situation.
But going after her and saying, well, you must have planned this, and you must have done that, and your self-esteem was this, and then you restored it, maybe that's true.
Of course, that's, you know, I mean, maybe it's true, maybe it's not.
But what is clear is you don't like the woman.
Don't like the woman.
And you don't have much excuse, right, because you've known her for years before you got involved with her.
And you don't have any excuse from a factual standpoint, but, of course, I believe, given your youth, that you have every excuse from a how-you-were-raised standpoint, right?
Because that would be my theory as to why you would then be so susceptible to this kind of self-delusion and then this kind of you kind of trying to corner her and so on.
Like, if you don't like the person, like, if you don't like the woman, if she's treated you badly, then dust your hands off and move on.
But trying to get her to admit this, I mean, that's just a hole with no bottom.
I mean, don't go there.
Don't be that guy, right?
Don't be that guy who voluntarily gets involved with a woman who's evasive or false or whatever, and then blame her for it, right?
And don't be that guy who gets involved with dysfunctional people and then tries to get them to admit that they're dysfunctional, right?
You understand, if she could admit all of this stuff, she wouldn't be dysfunctional.
I mean, this is an inevitability.
That she's not going to. She's going to evade, and she does all of this in the response, right?
And we don't have to go through all the details because they're so predictable in advance, right?
She's going to evade, she's going to counter blame, she's going to say, I never made any promises, you misunderstood, I didn't intend for this to happen, I'm sorry, but, you know, choice is important, and all of the nonsense that's going to go on, and you know all of this going in, that all that's going to happen is you're going to come out of this feeling more angry and more humiliated.
Don't engage, don't engage, don't engage, don't engage.
And look at the steps that led you towards this kind of person.
Why did you ask a woman out who you don't like?
You say nothing at the beginning about her personality.
You say nothing about her virtue, her courage, her honesty, her nobility, her heroism, her integrity, her strength, her kindness, her gentleness, her vulnerability, her openness.
I bet she's pretty, though. And take what you want and pay for it.
If you wanted to date a girl just because she's pretty, with no thought towards her qualities as a human being, then this is what you're going to end up with.
It's completely predictable.
It's not even like smoking. Smoking, you might survive, but this is like throwing yourself off a cliff and complaining about gravity.
Because there doesn't seem to be, and again, this is just based on what she's written to you and what you've said.
I mean, what's likable about her?
What's something that is really wonderful about her?
It doesn't seem to be anything.
Seems, you know, from your description, kind of cold and controlling and distant and manipulative and not honest.
So, you know, if you get involved with non-virtuous people, they will drag you down.
They will drag you down.
The first and only criterion is virtue in friends and lovers and business associates and companions and family.
The only thing that will make you safe in your relationships is the honor and virtue of the other person.
Cornering people, bullying them, trying to get them to admit that they've been false.
You will never win that fight.
And you know that. You know that.
You know that there's no way she's gonna say, Oh, you know what?
I was manipulating you. Oh, you know what?
I do have low self-esteem.
Oh, you know what? I really am sorry.
Oh, you know what? I'm gonna get into therapy.
Oh, you know what? You know that that's not gonna happen.
And the reason that you know that's not gonna happen It's that you are approaching her in an accusatory manner, right?
You are approaching her, well, you knew you were going to break up with me and you knew this and you did this low self-esteem, you were trying to prop it up, have a relationship once you got to yourself.
That's all accusatory. You are not being virtuous in this interaction.
If you're going to interact with someone who you care about, Kindness and curiosity and vulnerability and openness and not making accusations, but speaking honestly about how you feel and being curious about how the other person feels.
And if you can't do that, then don't.
This is what I mean when I say they drag you down.
She's going to be baffling. She's going to be confusing.
She's going to be contradictory. She's going to do things Which really hurts you.
She's going to be false and then you're going to rush in and accuse her and try and expose her and she's going to dodge and evade and you're going to feel worse and get more angry.
Just don't do it.
You know, put your bruised penis back in your pants and recognize that you have learned, in my opinion, or you could learn, a very important lesson for the cost of a couple of weeks and a relatively small heartbreak.
That the only thing that we can trust, the only aspect of someone that we can trust is their virtue, is her virtue.
And if you're going to get involved with people who you do not admire, who you do not respect, who you do not look up to, who you do not have the capacity to love, In terms of this involuntary response to virtue, if you're virtuous. If you're not going to do that, then this is the result.
It's going to be the result every single time with 100% certainty.
Nothing is more inevitable than defenses.
Nothing is more inevitable than dissociation.
Nothing is more inevitable than avoidance.
There's no possibility of a different path without self-knowledge.
And the people who actively avoid self-knowledge, and who act out, and who manipulate, and who lie, and who dangled the vajayjay, right?
Or, you know, whatever.
It could be some guy with money or his looks or whatever, right?
It's always going to end badly.
It's always, always, always going to end badly.
There is no magical exception to this iron rule.
This is physics. This is not even...
Again, this is all what I've experienced, my opinion, but this is inevitable.
So if you get that, the only thing you need to look for is virtue.
And hold off on the sexualization of a relationship until you have gotten a real sense of the person.
And see them in different situations.
You know, how does this person deal with the waiter?
Right? If the food is slow, how do they react?
How does this person talk about his or her friends?
How does this person talk about his or herself?
How does this person talk about his or her choices?
This is just little tips, but it's so important to understand.
If a woman says to you, or a man, but let's just say, if a woman says to you, I've never had a relationship longer than a couple of weeks, and she doesn't say to you, Now, this must be kind of alarming to you because you're interested in me and I'm telling you that I've never had a relationship for more than a couple of weeks.
If she doesn't say, but here's what I think I've learned about it and here's what I think happened and blah blah blah, if she just says, oh, I've never had a relationship for more than a couple of weeks and then goes on to some other topic, then she's not safe to date.
Don't put your heart into these blenders and hit frappe.
It's not safe to date.
Can you imagine that? I mean, imagine if she was going for a job and all of her previous jobs had lasted for only...
She'd worked there for a couple of weeks and quit, right?
And it was right there on her resume.
Or they asked her, right? If she was going for a job and they said, tell me about your past work experience.
And she says, ah, I get jobs, but I quit them after a couple of weeks.
And then goes on to some other topic.
Clearly, this would be completely retarded in this situation.
Because she would at least need to say, but it's going to be different this time and here's why.
But she's very clearly telling you all of these things.
All you have to do is close your pants and open your ears, and you will be very clear.
But don't, don't, don't, don't, don't go down this path of attempting to corner her, attempting to get the truth out of her.
You're going to end up bullying.
You're going to end up doing stuff that's going to mar your soul and tire your conscience.
You're chasing someone who's much more adept at evasion than you are at capture.
It's a complete waste of time.
And, of course, You risk triggering the stalker gene, right?
Which is not a good thing to do, where somebody just gets so twisted and manipulated that they get really, really angry.
And again, I would look, you know, if I were you, I'd look in the mirror and look at this as the tip of the iceberg from some aspect of my own personal history, coming out of my family, coming out of my childhood, coming out of something.
Why is it that you feel the need to engage with these kinds of women?
Or this kind of woman, if it's a singular instance, right?
Look at your mom, look at some female authority figure, or maybe look at your dad, right?
And say, okay, well, does this echo any, was my mom distant or evasive?
Was my mom manipulative? Was my mom False.
Did my mom lie? There's something that has left you susceptible to this kind of stuff.
Forget about this woman. She's a symptom.
Look at the actual cause, which is where you came from in life, and try and sort that out.
And again, since you're in school, here comes the pitch, right?
Since you're in school, it's always the same thing.
You get free or highly subsidized therapy.
You know, you don't have too many bowls down this alley, so to speak, before you can become too cynical and scarred to have a really great relationship.
So I would totally invest in going to see a therapist.
It might only be a couple of months, just so you can figure this kind of stuff out.
It's subsidized. You'll never have a better opportunity than in school to be able to do it.
It's really hard to do it once you're out of school and working.
So really, really take the opportunity.
Go talk to a therapist. Figure out where this stuff is coming from.
And don't worry, this woman, I know it's frustrating, I know it's upsetting, but you threw yourself into this bear trap, right?
You can't blame the bear, so to speak.
But try and figure out where this stuff is coming from so that you can avoid these kinds of situations and start building a bridge towards a much better kind of relationship, which is more permanent and stable, and where you have a real voice and can really trust the other person.
Thank you so much for listening.
I wish you all the very best with this.
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