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Sept. 11, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:53:30
1147 Brothers in Harms
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Time Text
Hello?
Hey. How's it going?
Not too bad, not too bad.
Yeah, so what's the scoop?
I know that's a hell of a thing.
Right. Well...
I guess I'm just trying to figure out what...
I mean, I kind of understand, um, why he did what he did and, and, uh, Well, sorry, what did he do?
Well, the choice that he made in terms of not wanting to preserve the relationship.
And just step me through that because I haven't seen all of those posts on the board.
Okay. Well, just from the phone call that I had with him on Sunday night, I started out just trying to be as...
Curious as possible, I asked him what his experience of me was and our relationship and how he felt about me.
And his responses were positive.
He said he liked...
He felt good about our interactions, that he felt he loved me, and that he didn't really see a Right.
Yeah.
And so I try to step him through that, and how I'm sort of enabling that.
And so I asked him, you know, when...
When you have to call and ask me for help, I mean, how does that feel?
And his answer was exactly what I expected.
Well, he feels humiliated and like he's a failure and like he can't do anything for himself.
He always screws things up and like that.
And I said... I said that...
that I didn't want to do that anymore.
That... That I didn't want to make him feel like that, right?
And... How is it you perceive that you were making him feel that way?
Well, I'm sort of participating in that, right?
I mean, if I... If I... If I keep taking his requests, I'm just sort of like...
It's not quite giving alcohol to an alcoholic, but it's like staying in a house with an alcoholic and pretending it's not happening, if that makes any sense.
Well, it could be.
I guess I just would say that the difference is, you know, in terms of enabling, the difference is that somebody's enabling an alcoholic, they will actively resist and undermine his attempts to get sober.
Oh. If that makes sense.
Right. Right.
That's the definition of enabling, that you claim that you want to help.
But then when the person shows progress, you undermine it, right?
Right, right.
Right, okay, that makes more sense.
Then that explains why I wasn't really comfortable with that answer.
The answer...
Sorry, which answer?
Well, I've been working on that theory since yesterday, and it just didn't sit right with me.
Well, because, you know, the continual asking for feedback is something that I sort of do, so I'd hope that it's not always enabling, if that makes sense.
Right, no, right, right, right.
Let's cross our fingers.
Right, and he sort of put himself into an impossible situation, too, where he knew this was happening, and so he wouldn't ask for help when he needed it because he was afraid that I would just get upset with him or something like that.
And sorry, when you say he knew this was happening, what is this?
That basically our interactions were almost entirely him chatting me up for help.
Like he had some problem he needed to solve or he was out of money again or...
He wasn't sure if he should take a job or not.
Always, just sort of always asking me to make decisions for him, if that makes any sense.
And was he specific about that, that he wanted you to make the decision?
Did he say, tell me what to do?
No, he wasn't.
No.
No, he would...
But you get the impression that he would...
That was the impression you got. Right.
The way the conversations would go, I would have this impulse to tell him what to do, but I knew that that was wrong.
Well, there's nothing wrong, I think, with telling people what to do.
The question is, how did you feel at the end of the interactions?
Because a typical pattern, right, is for people to be helpless...
To ask for feedback, and then to not take it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Always frustrated.
Always frustrated. See, that's the key to the interaction, is the feeling that occurs afterwards.
And always kind of...
Not sad, but...
I guess a mild kind of despair?
Sure, sure.
I really understand that feeling.
Like I was feeling twice as helpless as he was after a conversation.
And if you assume that feeling is correct, sorry to interrupt, what is it that you were feeling helpless about?
Well, the conscious thought around it was that in these other conversations was that maybe the conscious thought around it was that in these other conversations was that
Yeah.
I don't know. Well, I'm going to step you through it.
I mean, when people make us feel frustration and despair, how does the fact that that happens make you feel?
I mean, it's not a positive thing, right?
No, no, it does not feel positive at all.
Okay, so if it's not a positive thing, how does it make you feel when somebody's inflicting that kind of stuff on you?
Let's just say it's all him, right?
We'll just try and simplify the equation.
If somebody repeatedly inflicts negative stimuli on you, how do you feel about that?
Pretty bad. Well, that's tautology, right?
Yeah. I feel bad.
You mean irritated or angry?
I'm not sure what the question mark is doing at the end there, so take your time.
Well... Let's just pretend, like, because I know we all want to take so much responsibility for our interactions, right?
And say, well, I can't get angry at someone else because I'm involved in the interaction, right?
Right. Well, forget that just for the moment, right?
Just for the moment. Put personal responsibility aside just for a second.
Okay. All right.
If somebody repeatedly...
Makes you feel. We use ridiculous language here, but just bear with me for a sec.
Somebody repeatedly makes you feel frustrated and full of despair.
What do you feel? Yeah, yeah, pretty irritated, pretty angry.
Like I want to tell them just to stop it.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah. But you don't?
Yeah. No.
No, I didn't.
And what was the premise that you had that made that an unacceptable thing to do?
To get angry at him?
Yeah.
That it would be abusive?
That I would be...
That it would be...
I mean... He's reaching out for help, and that would be something cruel to do?
So, the thesis is that he's reaching out for help, and unfortunately, you would then be...
Treating him cruelly by being angry at him.
It'd be like yelling at a kid who's got a skinned knee, is that the thesis?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Okay, so in this way...
Right.
So, if your irritation is unjust, you must have a theory as to why you're irritated, right?
In other words, if interaction with him makes you depressed and despairing and frustrated, which is negative, what is your story about why you would feel irritated?
What was your belief about your irritation?
Well, you know...
You know, it's interesting, that particular feeling...
Didn't really have a conscious presence until after the conversation I had with him on Sunday.
You mean you'd not experienced consciously any irritation or anything like that prior?
I'm sure it must have been there, but I don't have a memory of it.
Okay, got it, got it.
So you didn't...
Sorry, and I'm just trying to understand.
So after you would be on the call with him, you would feel this...
You would feel bad, right?
Yeah. Now, the important thing, everything that we do, we justify.
Philosophy is all ex post facto.
Philosophy doesn't say we should justify everything we do.
We should create rules based on everything we do.
The simple fact is that we do anyway, right?
Right. Right.
Right. Because we're sort of built that way.
Yeah, yeah. Everything that we do, we have a story about.
Everything. Yeah.
Yeah, that's true. I mean, we are meaning-making machines, right?
Right. So, the fact is that everything we do, we create a philosophy around, or we create a story around, and it's almost always a moral story.
Right? I mean, you stop a woman on the way to the grocery store, she says, I go because I love my family.
Right.
I mean, and there's nothing wrong with that.
It just, it is, right?
And the purpose of what I try to focus on is that since we're going to make up a philosophy anyway, it might as well be rational.
Right? No, I'm with you there so far.
I'm with you there. Okay, so you felt the emotion of despair and sadness and frustration after the calls with your brother.
What was your story about it?
What was your justification for those feelings?
And I don't mean that they were justified, but what was your reason for these feelings?
Like some people will say, well, I felt irritated at this person who asked for help because I lack sympathy.
There's always a because.
Always, always, always. Right.
So what was your because?
Like, I felt this because.
What was that justification?
Or explanation is a better way of putting it.
Well, before Sunday, it would have been...
The story was that I just wish that there was something I could do for him.
Well, but the despair...
You felt despair not because you wanted to do something for him.
That is a desire, not despair, right?
Right. Right, but you were asking me what my justification for it was.
No, that's your justification of going into the conversation.
I'm talking about the explanation that you had for the feelings after the conversation.
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
God, why am I so confused about that?
It's tough.
I mean, this is right down at the root of thinking and experiencing the world, so this is tough stuff.
This is core beliefs, right?
But anyway, go on. Right, well, the justification for it would have been, well, there was nothing I could do for him.
So you feel despair because the goal of helping him is impossible.
Right. He cannot be helped.
Right. Okay, now, can he not be helped because he doesn't want to be helped and it's all a shell game, or can he not be helped because you can't help him but someone else could, if that makes sense?
Well, that was the...
That was the explanation I had some months ago when you and he talked.
That he couldn't be changed?
That he could be helped, but that I just couldn't do it.
And why couldn't you do it?
Sorry, he could be helped by me or by someone else or by therapists or whatever, but you couldn't do it, and why couldn't you do it?
Well, just because of the history that we have, the fact that we can't really see each other outside of that history.
right? Yeah, but saying history is the answer is like saying God is the answer.
It's too imprecise.
That's fair. Because it's something in the history, right?
Everyone has history, right? Right.
Right. And I'm not trying to create...
I'm trying to figure out what story it is you're telling yourself deep down.
Right, I understand. And history doesn't go deep enough.
It's more of a, I don't want to go deep enough, right?
Right. Right. Well, it's history, you see.
Why does war happen? Well, it's history.
Why is the universe here?
Well, God's need. But you know what I mean.
Right. Right.
And I think...
I'm not sure what I would have said then, but now I think...
I can't help him because...
Well, because he doesn't want help.
Well, go on.
Well, he would talk about all these things he would talk about all these things that he wanted to be better about in his life.
And...
Things that he felt bad that were not going well and would constantly ask, like you say, he would constantly ask for advice and then he would make up an excuse for why he couldn't do that.
Right. Like, I want to make more money.
Well, you could take this course at night school and do X. Well, yes, but I don't have the time or money to pay for that course.
Well, you could do investments.
Well, I have too little cash flow for that.
You know, well, you could take a second job.
Well, but I want to keep up with my singing career.
Well, you could do, right? That's right.
Yeah, exactly. That's exactly right.
That's exactly how it went.
I know. Right. And it was the same, too, with his relationship and with his personal life.
There's always some answer.
Well, it's not an answer, right?
It's an excuse. Right.
Right, it's like you say to the guy who's overweight, well, maybe you could cut out carbs for a bit.
Oh, no, I can't, because I get totally dizzy and can't climb the stairs when I do that, right?
Well, maybe you can cut out sugars for a bit.
It's like, well, unfortunately I get migraines when I cut out sugars, so I can't do that, right?
Right. And then they come back the next day and say, oh my god, I totally want to lose weight.
Or maybe you could cut down on your reading.
It's like, well, no, I can't do that because then my blood sugar crashes and that's bad for me.
Right, right. It's like, okay, so then you don't want to lose weight.
That's fine. I mean, that's fine, right?
But then let's stop talking about losing weight.
Let's go with the empirical evidence, right?
And I think that's why, for the first time, I felt that irritation when I talked to him on Sunday, because he kept talking about it like he had no control over what was happening to him right now.
That this was all sort of...
It was bound to happen. It was written in the stars.
It was sort of, you know, something he couldn't control and didn't have a, you know, choice about.
And there was no way he could stop it.
And I was like, oh, God.
You know, I've been trying for months and you're not.
But who's to say that he's wrong?
Right.
I mean, how our brain works or doesn't work follows the same laws as any other organ, right?
So if you drink like crazy, you're very likely to end up with cirrhosis of the liver or brain damage, right?
Right. And once that process is underway, you're helpless to stop it, right?
Right. Right.
If you smoke long enough, you probably get lung cancer or emphysema.
And once that starts, you say, well, I'm helpless to not have lung cancer.
Well, that's true, right? Right.
Because of the little decisions that have been made over the years.
It's now functionally impossible to avoid the consequences of those decisions, right?
Right. That's right.
And this is supported by huge amounts of psychological evidence, right?
They're called character logic disorders, which is a neurosis is a rotten series of thoughts in an otherwise generally healthy personality.
And that can be dealt with, right?
And again, I have no competence to diagnose your brother, but I'm just talking about the theory.
But a character logic is there is not a healthy personality with bad thinking in there.
The whole personality is bad thinking.
There's no ego to change the personality.
There's no third eye. There's no outside ego.
There's no observing ego. It's called character logic because the character is faulty logic.
That's the personality, not an aspect of the personality.
It's not a healthy body with a tumor that you can treat.
The whole body is a tumor, and if you treat the tumor, you kill the body, right?
Right. Right.
Right, that's right.
And there are specific...
Characteristics associated with character logic disorders, right?
Grindingly repetitive interactions.
Every interaction is the same.
We see this on the board, right?
When we get these unpleasant, aggressive people.
They never turn nice. Never.
No, that's true. That's quite true.
Never. Never. Because it's character logic.
It's who they are. It's not a part of who they are.
It's not something that you can change in them.
It's who they are.
Right, and so...
And so...
He's basically been...
Telling me what I haven't been willing to hear...
For months.
Already. And the question is, why...
I wasn't listening.
Well, because the diagnosis, if this is an accurate diagnosis, and again, only you can tell, but it's because it is a completely terrible diagnosis to pass upon someone.
Yeah. It is a death sentence to the relationship.
Because there is no relationship.
There's only defenses in false self.
There's nothing to relate to because he can't interact with you because he doesn't have a self.
Therefore, he can only manipulate you.
He can only use you, right?
Yeah. And none of us wants to say that about someone we care about.
Yeah. It's beyond heartbreaking.
To recognize that, and this is what I get criticized a lot for, is coming to conclusions about people.
Right? Which is, this person is this way.
It's not my fault.
They brought this to the interaction.
Right? I can't change it in them because personality is really hard to change if you're intelligent, have a reasonably strong ego, have lots of resources and materials, will pay for therapy, will work at it hard for years.
The personality is really hard to change, right?
Yes. I know that.
We all do. We all do.
It's hard enough to get up the mountain if you want to.
If you say, there is no mountain, it's functionally completely impossible, right?
Right. Right.
So coming to conclusions about people based on how they interact with you, because people get mad at me for banning people, but it's like, I know.
I know. And it's not like I know like a bias.
I always talk it over with Christina, who is a real expert of these matters, who dealt with these people for years.
Right. I know when someone cannot change.
I just know.
And it's easy because whenever you speak the truth to them, it never lands anywhere from it.
Right? Right.
It's like you're throwing coins into a cloud.
Maybe that's why.
Maybe that's why I felt so compelled to talk to him after the After the meditation.
Because... Because I just knew.
Right.
Right.
Yes, and that's why when we accept that people cannot change, part of that is outgrowing our own incapacity to change, right? part of that is outgrowing our own incapacity to change, The more we believe...
That people change who show no evidence of actually wanting to change.
Or even recognizing there's a problem, right?
Right. So if someone's aggressive to me, and I say, hey, that's pretty aggressive.
And they say, no, you're aggressive, right?
Right, right.
They don't even recognize there's a problem.
Then there's no possibility, even if we recognize there's such a thing as a problem, and we work for years to try and fix it, it's touch and go, right?
That's the thing that really, really angered me about the call Sunday.
I mean, he was explicitly acknowledging, yeah, there's a problem, but I can't do anything about it.
Right. Oh, God.
And he's right. If he's eaten 10 bags of sugar a day for five years and he's got diabetes, he's like, you're saying don't have diabetes.
And he's saying, well, I do have diabetes.
I can't do anything about it now.
I've already got it.
And he's right. Yeah.
Sorry, did I just have the mic off for that bit?
I think I did. No, no, no, I heard it.
Oh, you heard it. I'm sorry. Yeah.
He had...
He's basically telling me he has diabetes and he already knows it and there's nothing we can do about it.
Yeah, you're saying climb the mountain.
He's like, dude, I got no limbs.
Love to get up the mountain. All right.
Got no limbs. Right.
That's really the thing that, you know, sort of putting you in that impossible situation, like saying things like he wished that it could be different like saying things like he wished that it could be different and he wished that he didn't have these and... But then would say, but nothing works, right?
Like, therapy doesn't work for me, and talking doesn't work for me, and this doesn't work for me, and that doesn't work.
It's like... Then there's nothing left.
I don't have a relationship with anything but your list of problems.
right Well, but they're not problems.
They're not problems.
They're solutions. You look at them at problems.
He doesn't look at them like they're problems.
And I know this sounds annoyingly paradoxical.
Sorry about that, but that's all right.
The solution to low self-esteem is to have a shitty life, right?
That's the solution. Oh, wow.
Right? The solution to not being good enough is to have a shitty life.
The solution to self-attack is to have problems.
Oh, because then you don't actually have to work on them.
Well, it's one of those lovely Simon the Boxer self-fulfilling prophecies, right?
If I'm not good enough, if I'm a bad person, if I have low self-esteem, my solution to that is to surround myself with bad people and problems and difficulties that cannot be solved.
Right. So you're looking at these things as problems.
I would invite you to regard them as what they are, which is solutions.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And that's why you can't solve them.
Because they're not to be solved.
Right. It's like going to an athlete and saying, how can I solve your gold medal?
It's like, what? That's not a problem.
problem, that's an achievement.
That is a solution.
Right.
For him, anyways, right?
It's... Self-confirming cycle.
Right. It's like how atheists go to religious people and say, I want to solve your problem of a belief in God, right?
Right. It's like, no, my belief in God is a solution to the reality that I was lied to, right?
Right. That people treated me like crap, lied to me for their own nefarious purposes.
Right. So what you're calling a problem, I'm calling a solution.
And that's why atheists can't change the minds of people about religion.
Because they view it as a problem to be solved.
But it's a solution to the problem of family corruption is continued faith in God.
Right, which goes back to what you were saying earlier about it not even acknowledging it as a problem.
Right. Yeah, no, it's not a problem.
Now, admittedly, the religious person says that his love for Jesus is a good thing, whereas your brother is constantly talking about problems, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And how he wished he wasn't having them, right?
So, the solution for him is to have problems.
Yes, the solution for him is to have problems, because it reinforces his...
Self-estimation, right?
Right, right.
That makes a lot of sense.
And in that context, my role in that was in some sense enabling then because...
I was another component of that self-confirmation, right?
What do you mean? Well, load me up with problems that I can't solve for him, and then I tell him I can't do anything for him, and then he feels all the more incapable,
right? Well, I think that's my personal opinion, and again, although this is mostly just personal opinion except for the character logic stuff, but my perspective is that that's entirely too charitable a view of the interaction.
What do you mean?
Well... I don't know if you've read DeMoss' phrase, a poison container, that we use other people when we have bad feelings, as a poison container.
We kind of yak into their souls and feel better ourselves.
Yeah. Right, so his premise is that his problems cannot be solved, and he is doomed to a life of mediocre dissatisfaction, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's totally the way he thinks.
Almost word for word.
Yeah, I understand. So if he's a hypochondriac, let's use a medical metaphor, if he's a hypochondriac and he believes that his illness simply cannot be cured, right?
The best thing that he can do to confirm this diagnosis is to go to the best diagnostician in the world, lie about his symptoms, and stump the diagnostician, right?
Right? Oh, wow.
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
If even the guy who's really into philosophy can't solve any of my problems, my problems are unsolvable, right?
Right. If the greatest mathematician in the world cannot solve this equation, this equation cannot be solved, right?
That's right. That's right.
And so the despair, the reason he feels despair is because he knows deep down that there's an alternative, right?
Yeah, because he wouldn't feel despair if he didn't realize that.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
I mean, so he knows deep down that there's an alternative.
So his entire focus is to kill and crush that alternative, right?
For himself.
No, not for himself.
Universally. As a principle.
Or no, no, you know what?
I'm so sorry. I think you're actually more than right in this.
Because he's about low self-esteem, right?
So he's got to be lower than others.
So maybe he would admit that other people can solve these problems, but mysteriously he is doomed to not be able to solve them, right?
Right, and he's almost explicitly said it that way a number of times, too.
Yes, so sorry. More on the nihilism is to make it a universal principle, but he's about lowering himself relative to the average, right?
Yeah. Okay, sorry.
That's more accurate.
So, I cannot solve these problems, and if other people cannot solve these problems, then he can take at least some relief in believing that the problems are insolvable.
Right.
It's a relief, right?
It's like heroin for a toothache, right?
It doesn't solve the problem, but at least you feel better for a while.
Yeah, and in the past when we've had these conversations, that's sort of how the that's sort of how the cycle would work too.
Like, The next few days he would feel great and he'd have all this motivation and all this stuff and he'd want to make big changes and then by the end of the week it was back to the depression again.
And then the cycle would begin again, right?
So he'd be depressed, you'd come in and help, he'd feel better, and then he'd go back to square one, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Just about every single time.
Right. So he was using you as a poison container as a way of relieving his own depression or dysthymia or despair.
And we know that simply because you felt despair and he felt better.
That's a clear transfer, right?
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
If in a financial interaction, one guy's bank account goes down and the other guy's goes up, that's a clear transfer, right?
Right, right. No, that's right.
That's exactly right.
Once in a while, we'd both feel better.
Once in a while, we'd both feel worse.
Usually, I would feel worse and he would feel better.
Yes, for sure. So I would suggest that your way of looking at it is too benevolent towards him, right?
You know, like he wanted to change, but he just had trouble with it or couldn't get around to it or, you know, was weak or something like that, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, which makes a lot of sense because that's...
That's sort of been my own problem, right?
Where...
I'm just not at the skill level to fix the complexity and the difficulty of his particular problems, right?
Go on. Well, taking responsibility for his choices, right?
And then beating myself up over it when whatever I tried to do for him didn't work Right, right. The self-attack again.
Right, and...
Sorry, I'm so sorry, go ahead.
Oh, I was just going to say, and I think that's also...
I think that's...
I was thinking that that was one of the reasons why the stuff I've been doing with the meditation has kind of pushed me to...
It's, I guess it's embarrassing to say this, but it's really the first serious attempt I've made it taking care of myself, if that makes any sense.
No, no, I understand.
I understand. The only way to solve confusion is through depth, right?
So, you have to go deeper than your brother.
If you deal with his surface complaints, you will forever remain baffled, right?
Because he'll just manipulate you.
Yeah. You have to go deep to get the answers about your relationships.
And when you go deep, you just get a kind of irrevocable certainty because you go below the false self, you go below the surface manipulations, you go below the symptoms to the root causes.
Yeah. Yeah, and I had that too.
I mean... I really felt driven to just put a stop to it after that.
I had a total certainty about the fact that he and I really didn't have a relationship.
Our Our false selves were talking to each other.
Our dysfunctions were related, not our persons.
Well, yes, but again, I would be very precise, if I were you, about calling these equal dysfunctions.
For instance, you did not initiate conversations about his problems, right?
No. In fact, when he would initiate conversations about his problems, I'm sure you kind of sighed and put on your doctor's helmet, right?
Yeah. The initiator is the pathological one, right?
Yeah, I guess that's true.
We're not all equal in our pathologies, right?
No, of course not.
So when you say our pathologies were interacting, I don't think that manipulating someone into being a poison container for you versus hoping that you can help them would be similar pathologies, if that makes sense.
Oh, right, right, right.
No, no, I completely agree with that.
No, you're right about that.
Because otherwise you're going to put yourself at his level, which is not going to help your self-esteem.
And again, self-esteem shouldn't be artificially raised, but your intention, I believe, I believe, and you can tell me if this is not the case, but your intention was to help him become a little happier.
It's not like you felt anxious that he wasn't doing well, so you kept initiating conversations about his problems so you could feel better.
Right. Right.
No, I would try to show genuine interest in his life, but it would always turn toward a specific problem he was having.
He's always having financial trouble, and he's having trouble, of course, getting his singing career off the ground and all these other things.
Yeah. And it was pretty much at that point that I would put the doctor's helmet on, like you say, and try to do something good for him, try to help him overcome these problems, right?
Right. And I can guarantee you that he is never going to have a singing career because people don't want to work with him.
hire singers are highly competent, highly motivated, highly energetic people, right?
Yeah.
It doesn't have anything to do with how well you can sing.
I mean, beyond a certain better minimum, right?
Right. I mean, to take a silly example, Placido Domingo is in a show that runs in Europe.
We get American Idol.
They get Who's the Best Opera Singer, right?
And he is a wise and kind and gentle and wonderful and encouraging mentor to people, right?
Yeah. He really throws himself into helping other people improve Their connection with their voice, their projection, their passion, right?
Yeah. So one of the reasons that Placido Domingo is a star is because people really like him.
People who are competent and energetic and kind really like him, right?
That's true. Now, these kind and competent and energetic and focused people who have the capacity to hire a singer...
Aren't they going to get the creepy crawlies from your drip of a brother?
Well, and in fact, he's actually told me some stories like that, too.
Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure of it.
And it wasn't just creepy crawlies.
He would actively sabotage his own attempts at getting ahead and actually...
Working with people, he's pissed all kinds of people off from his own...
One particular instance I can recall he had a he had a show he was doing with a like a duet program he was doing with another girl and
He kept changing the rehearsal dates and he wouldn't practice the material.
Sometimes he would forget his music.
And they ended up having to actually move the performance state, too, and it totally incensed the girl he was doing the show with, and she won't work with him now.
Oh, yeah. I mean, I have no doubt about all of that.
This is a general principle, which I think is useful for everyone to get.
Anything that is a repetitive problem in someone's life is not a problem, but a solution to a deeper problem.
All right. Right.
He wanted that to happen, right?
Yeah, for sure. For sure.
Right, because we all have a belief at...
Deep down, we have a belief about our value.
About what we have to offer, what we have to bring to the table.
The skills, the positivity, the energy, the humor, the grace, the whatever.
We have a belief about it, right?
Right. And...
Our actual experiences in the world can rarely vary far from that belief.
Now, you can raise that belief, but you know how we say to other people, I can't hear what you're saying over what you're doing?
Right. Right.
Right. It's like I'm writing about – I started the new book.
I'm writing about these free market economists.
It's like I can't hear your praise of the free market over you hiding out in a statist ivory tower of protected monopoly, right?
Right. Right.
That's exactly right. I can't hear your love of the free market over your utter rejection of the free market, right?
Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right.
And in the same way – Yeah.
Yeah. With people who come in and say, I'm pro-Iraq war, right?
By not blowing up at people, by not engaging with trolls, by being positive and friendly, by whatever.
You can change the actions, and as a result, your self-esteem will raise.
And sometimes it's like trying to drag the Titanic up with a twine, right?
That's sort of another thing that I was kind of coming to a realization about last weekend as well, was that...
That you can't always expect that internal spark to be there before you go and do something.
You have to actually do it and prove to your true self that you want to, right?
Yeah. Oh yeah, when you change despite habit, that's when the real revolution begins in the personality.
Because that's when the true self sits up and takes notice, right?
Right. Says, oh shit, we're not just talking about it?
It's not a drill? We're actually doing something?
Oh fuck, let me get my socks on.
Right. Right.
And so any repetitive problem that people have, right, so your brother's financial issues, they're not financial problems.
They are a solution.
They are his solution.
Yeah. Right, so people say, oh, I want to make more money, or I want to have more financial security.
But it's like, well, no you don't.
This is empirical. All we do is look at the evidence.
This is the joy of an empirical philosophy.
Right. That's right.
That's right. I mean, somebody who wants financial security bad enough just becomes a doctor or a lawyer or, I don't know, something like that, right?
Financial advisor.
It's pretty guaranteed, right? Right.
Right. And so we just say to somebody, I don't care what you say.
I'm going to look at what you're doing, right?
Right. Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right. And if you're doing something repetitively, it can't be a problem.
It's a solution to another problem, like aggression on the board, right?
So when people come in and they're all punchy and, you know, aggressive and snide and, you know, whatever, right?
Well, that's a solution to the problem of fear and vulnerability, right?
Yeah, they don't want to – well, it's not really even a solution.
It's an avoidance of real solutions.
Oh, it's their solution, right?
In the same way that drugs are a solution to depression or whatever, right?
And rage, of course, can sometimes be a solution to depression, right?
Certainly people who are depressed often have a sadistic side where cruelty to others rouses them out of their torpor.
Because it creates stimulation, they feel they're having an effect on someone, even a negative one.
It's the same as self-cutting, it's just verbal assaults on others.
Right. So it's a solution to the problem.
And so since it is a solution, saying you need to solve your solution is a logical contradiction, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
And that's why I don't bother, right?
That's right. That's right.
You're right about that.
And it's also why there was just no...
And there was really no possibility for moving forward with my brother.
Right, right.
And also, there is...
I try to, and not always successfully, to say the least...
Like, this Jerry fellow came back to the board, right?
And he said, I don't know why people don't respond to my posts.
I was posting here a year ago, and I don't get much response to my posts, right?
Right. And so I asked him, what do you think it is?
Because he's had a year to think about it.
That's true. He's had a year to think about it, right?
Yeah. Yeah. And that's how you figure out whether it's a trap or somebody genuinely wants to solve a problem.
Oh, and that's interesting too.
I never...
Because if someone comes back, I'm sorry to over-explain it, I think you've got it, but just in general, right?
I mean, if somebody comes and says, I've had a year to think about this and I have no idea whatsoever, then it's obviously a trap, right?
Yeah, and I never asked him that question.
Well, I did ask it and everybody blew past my asking it and just got engaged, right?
Yeah. Because he wrote back to me and he said, I have absolutely no idea why people don't respond to my posts.
It's like, oh, okay, so it's a trap, right?
Yeah. Because either he's thought about it hard for a year and come up with nothing, in which case he's functionally retarded, right?
Yeah. Right.
Or he's not interested in solving the problem, right?
And he's angry at people for not giving him what he wants.
He's not interested in solving the solution.
Right. It's a solution, right?
He's angry at people for not responding to his posts, so he's going to trap them and frustrate them, because he feels frustrated, but he can't deal with it, so he just wants to make other people feel frustrated by saying, well, what's the problem?
And then people give him solutions, and he says, no, that's not it.
And that's also why I couldn't see that either.
Yes. Yes.
I think so. That makes sense because, I mean, my brother was doing the same thing and I wasn't asking him that question, right?
Because I know now, just thinking about it in my head, if I asked him that question, what do you think it is, his answer would have been angrily, well, of course I don't know what it is.
That's why I'm asking you, right?
Yeah. Right. So it's like, okay, so you're in your late 20s, you've had these problems for about 10 years, and you have no idea what causes them.
Even after people have tried to explain them to him, right?
Right. Right.
And RTR is free and I think has some pretty good damn insights about why we might have these repetitive behaviors.
So if all of these free resources and you and me and he says, I have no idea.
Yeah, it's just the universe against me was sort of like his attitude about it.
Right, and this tells you something about the ego strength, right?
So, if he is able to project his despair onto the entire universe, then clearly his ego boundaries are virtually non-existent, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
And trying to get someone to make a decision when their ego boundaries are...
I mean, projection is a negative ego boundary, right?
I mean, because you're actually taking your control and your power and putting it out there among the frickin' interstellar stars, right?
Right. It's not a magnet that attracts, like we want power and control.
It's actually a magnet that repels, right?
Right. Right. Right.
It's a modern form of astrology.
Yeah, for sure. You know, will the fate gods allow me to succeed?
Right. And of course, the people who really do succeed don't rely on the fate gods, and they're going to be kind of repelled by that approach, which means you're never going to succeed.
That's right. That's right.
And I... Yeah, I can remember actually having a very similar attitude in my 20s.
Yeah, no, I mean, I think that we've all gone through that phase.
It's kind of nihilism. Yeah.
Yeah. The nihilism, the despair, you know, when you first see how not well the world is, it's overwhelming.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, very much so.
So my suggestion is, because you're going to face this challenge in your life, right?
And we all do, because we've all gone through this, and we all will again in the future.
But, you know, just philosophy is about taking nothing for granted, right?
So somebody says, this is a problem, why assume that it is, right?
I mean, we're skeptical about everything.
Someone says, God exists, we'd say, well, why assume so?
People say, the government is virtue, we say, why assume so?
Someone says, this is a problem in my life, it's like, why assume so?
Right. Right. Yeah, it's not taking their word for it.
Yeah. You know, instead of, you know, hearing someone say, God exists, we say, okay, well, let's look at the actual evidence, right?
Instead of somebody saying, well, accepting someone saying, the state is virtue.
We say, okay, well, it's the evidence, right?
And somebody says, this is a big problem in my life.
Say, well, let's look at the evidence, right?
Right. Right. Is it?
Right. And if it really was, I mean, if these things really were a big problem in his life, he'd already be doing things to try and solve them.
Right. Right.
I mean, the big problem in his life isn't how to solve Fermat's last equation, right?
It's like how to have more money than he spends.
Right. Right, which is not exactly rocket science.
I mean, that's count with your ten fucking fingers and toes, twenty fingers and toes, right?
Right. You know, and as to how do I get my career off the ground, you know, rehearse and show up on time is not brain surgery, right?
Right. That's right.
That's exactly right.
So if you ignore that basic reality, the evidence is that he does not want his career to succeed, but rather prefers to complain about his career, that that complaining is a solution, and his financial woes are a solution.
And this is well known, right?
Psychologists well know you cannot solve money problems with more money.
That is well documented, well known, well understood.
Right, you can't solve alcoholism with more alcohol either.
Well, I think that's a...
Yeah, I mean, there's some truth in that metaphor, but people who win the lottery don't end up financially secure.
Right, very rarely.
People who have money problems who get a windfall inheritance, the money's all gone in a year.
Yeah. Typically.
Yeah, you cannot solve money problems with money.
So more money isn't the solution.
Right. And assuming that it's a problem is an unwarranted assumption.
So why would I have been so willing for so long to play the role of poison container?
Well, I think there'd be two reasons for that.
The first is that that's what you're trying to do, right?
Oh, sure. As...
Coming from that household, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, if you ever resisted being a poison container, you'd get beaten with a belt, right?
Yeah. Yep, that's right.
Which is just another way of being a poison container, right?
Yeah, one way or another, right?
Right. You can either be a poison container psychologically or psychologically end with a beating.
I know, which I'd choose, right?
Right. Right.
So that's the first thing.
And the second thing is, you genuinely do care.
And you genuinely do want to help.
Yes, I do. I mean, that's just part of empathy and hope, right?
It's just a cross, so to speak, we have to bear, right?
So this guy who came in to the board and was talking about, you know, well, why should murder be wrong in one place or another?
Because theories don't have to be consistent, one environment to another, right?
Because speed of light through air, through water, through vacuum, whatever.
Right. I mean, I thought that the answer that I get was, and I don't say this often, but this was damn brilliant, where he says, well, he and I are in different locations, but my theory has to be consistent in both locations.
Right? Right.
And therefore, if he's saying, why does your theory have to be consistent in both locations, he's saying that...
My theory has to be consistent both in my and his location.
He's already accepting the premise.
We don't have to go outside what he's saying to disprove his argument.
Right, yeah, you don't have to go outside the logic of his own argument in order to disprove it.
That's right. Go ahead.
Never mind, it's on the content of the argument.
Forget it. Right.
I mean, the argument is for sure, you know, he says, well, in different environments, the speed of light goes differently, and that's fine.
But, you know, whether you're in Syria or in Syria is not a functional difference in terms of ethics, right?
Well, and the mathematics behind the speed of light is consistent both in a vacuum and through light or through around gravity and whatnot.
It's not a different formula depending on the environment.
The formula, which is the theory, is consistent.
The behavior of light is different, yes, but the formula, which is the theory, is consistent.
Yes, no. Otherwise...
Absolutely, for sure. But I always try to prefer to go to self-defeating arguments.
Right. Because then you're saying, well, by your premises, your argument falls, right?
If you're assuming that my theory has to be consistent in both places, then you're assuming that theories have to be consistent in both places, and therefore...
Like, the geography is irrelevant to the truth or falsehood of a theory, right?
Right. So then you can't say, well, I wouldn't murder be right in one geographical location or wrong in another because you're already accepting that location is independent of theory because you're asking for my theory to be true both in my and your location, right?
Oh, right, right, exactly.
I mean, just by questioning that, you're implying that it ought to be.
Well, you're not implying, you're assuming, you're accepting that it is.
Right. So, when you put out what I think is a great argument like that, of course, don't we all want the person to come back and say...
That's great. I hadn't thought of that.
Holy crap, right?
Yeah, thanks for setting me straight.
And even if they don't agree with you, say, I hadn't thought of that, that's a great argument.
This is what I think is incorrect about it, though, right?
Right. I mean, we all want that, right?
For somebody to go from, well, I can see this is going to want to be one of these bitchy tit-for-tat things that you love so much, Steph, your turn, right?
Right. Yeah, that's ridiculous.
Well, but we all desperately want for someone to say, you know, that's right, right?
With this Z3KO fellow, whatever his name was, right, who was like, you know, bam, that's the sound of your argument blowing up in your face or whatever.
Crazy shit that he put out there, right?
I mean, when I say, look, I'm real sorry for not being more clear about my definition of objective earlier in the thread, I do apologize.
We absolutely want someone to say...
Yes, I accept that apology.
I'm also sorry for escalating so much, right?
Yeah, and it's not so much...
It's not even because you want them to concede the argument.
It's just that you want them to...
Behave reasonably.
Well, you want them to see the truth the way you see it, right?
I mean... Huh? The truth the way I see it?
No, yeah, it's...
Juan, perhaps you've taken a turn that I'm not aware of, philosophically speaking.
No, but what I'm trying to say is you want to...
You want to help them, right?
No, it's not even that I want to help them, and it's not that I'm trying to shame them with...
I'm not saying you. It's just that when you apologize to someone for a small and arguable error that you made...
I mean, what was it I said?
Well, economics relies on objective value, which is money, right?
I mean, that's clearly not your mother is ugly and your dog wears army boots, right?
I mean, that's just a statement, and when people escalate and blow up and get all kinds of crazy...
Yeah, they got unbelievably angry.
Just a little statement. Now, maybe it's right, maybe it's wrong.
It's certainly not abusive. No.
No, hell no. And they got unbelievably angry about it.
And when you try and calm the waters and you say, you know, gee, I guess, you know, I am sorry that I didn't...
I was not clear about... The definition of objective here, here's what I mean relative to apricots, money is a more objective value which is required for the science of economics because of price and trade and blah, blah, blah, right?
I mean, that's not... It was an underexplained argument on my part, for which I apologize.
And you always genuinely hope, or at least I do, right?
You always genuinely hope that people are going to de-escalate on that, right?
Well, that's the intent, right?
I mean...
Well, no, the intent is, look, I genuinely am sorry that my lack of definition here seems to have provoked such a firestorm.
Now, I don't like being in an environment where if you just happen to under-define something, you can be attacked.
I don't like that as an environment.
That is not an environment that is conducive to the mature and wise exploration of truth, right?
Right. So, even if I was wrong, I still don't want to participate in an environment where making a misstep causes people to blow up at you.
Oh, right. No, absolutely, because you're just sort of submitting yourself to abuse.
Yeah, and you're setting up a situation where it's somehow acceptable.
It's like joining a running club where everyone gets to scream at you if you trip, right?
Well, that's not funny, right?
That's so good. Not at all.
Right. No, that's exactly right.
So we all genuinely do want for people to behave better, right?
Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that.
But it's rare that they do.
It happens, for sure.
But almost always when someone has behaved badly...
What he will do is either ignore it or justify it, which are both ways of doing the same thing.
Right, rationalize and re-entrench.
Right, right, right.
Yeah, I've seen that.
Right, I mean, he can say that that's my apology because that would imply that he should apologize for his escalation, right?
Right, right.
He can't do it. He can't even see it, right?
Right.
didn't occur or if it did occur it occurred because of what Steph did right right right and all of that is more so you can't solve right that's why I always try to ask people like a guy posted today and said Steph I hope you don't lower your intellectual standards to pander to such people as were on the badnarek show oh man Now, I don't know what he means by that, right?
So I'm not going to, you know, respond and say, what the hell are you talking about?
Right? How did I pander to these people?
I was counting on very poor beliefs.
Yeah. And where was that complaint when you were on the other show, right?
I mean... Yeah, there were Christians there too.
But I don't know what he means, right?
I don't want to jump to conclusions, right?
So I say, can you explain to me a little bit more about what you mean?
Right? Which is when I post something like, economics requires objective value, I would appreciate it that if somebody doesn't agree or they just say, can you tell me what you mean by objective value?
Right. Just ask, right?
Instead of blowing up and reacting and this and that, right?
Right. Right.
So, if people like this guy who's pro-Iraq war, you can just say, can you tell me what it is that you found your belief on, right?
If you want to engage at all.
And if you don't, then don't, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
It's totally up to him, for sure.
But I think that just, you know, forget about our emotional preferences.
Let's just work with the evidence.
It's true that I do want people to de-escalate when I apologize and to become more reasonable.
But if they don't, they don't.
If they continue to escalate or justify or whatever, right?
Then they don't. Right.
Right, so if I disprove this guy's thesis, that location is a relevant factor to the truth or falsehood of an argument, and he says, oh, well, you're just quibbling, right?
Well, that's just what he's doing.
I can't change that, right?
Yeah, that's right. And to engage after that point is to sort of deny that reality.
Right. I'm not going to participate in the illusion that he's interested in the truth, right?
Right. And that's sort of what I've been doing with my brother.
Sure. And because you were trained to, and out of a genuine desire to help him.
Your brother is not some random guy on the internet.
No. He's your flesh and blood.
You grew up with him. You care about him and you want him to share of the happiness that you have.
Yes. That's why I've spent so much time and energy on him.
That's true. But the important thing, in my opinion, the most important thing, is always to ask yourself, how does this person handle power?
Because whenever you want something from someone, they have power over you, whether you like it or not.
Oh, that's an excellent point.
You want him to believe, to accept, to change, so that gives him power.
And you need to look at how does he handle power in general, right?
So when people rely on him to be prepared to bring his music to come on time to sing well, then they are dependent upon him because they've already hired him, right?
They couldn't fire him. They actually had to move the performance date, right?
Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
So he had power over them.
Yeah, he did. That's right.
So how does he handle power?
Your need for him to change gave him power over you, right?
That's right, that's right.
How does he handle power?
With disappointment, I guess.
With disappointment? Oh, you're so nice.
That was the word that popped into my head when you said that.
No, you're disappointed... At how he handles power.
He doesn't handle power with disappointment.
He handles power in a disappointing manner.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's right. Nope, that's exactly right.
He handles power very poorly.
Well, okay, poorly, you could say, right?
but I don't think that's accurate.
Well, why am I having such a hard time putting a label on this?
Well, what does your inner kid say?
say um how does he handle power he abuses it Yes, he abuses it.
What he does is he traps people into needing something from him, and then he withholds.
Right? That's right.
Am I wrong?
Am I way off base?
No, that's exactly right.
It's almost like 180 degrees from the way I had seen it.
Yeah, you think he's powerlessness.
No, he's accumulating power.
By withholding the satisfaction, right?
Yeah, that's exactly right.
He won't put out, is what I'm saying.
Just kidding. No, that's true.
Because if we accept the premise that my relationship to him was that I needed him to be better, you're Or that I wanted that from him.
Then you're right.
Then I was sort of putting that power in his hands and he was reciprocating by continually...
No, you didn't put power in his hands.
He created the desire within you.
He used your attachment to him and your desire for him to live a happier life, right?
He used that to give himself a sense of power and control, right?
Which he learned from your parents.
I'm just trying to...
I'm just trying to absorb that right now.
Well, your other brothers did not hold out the promise of change, right?
Oh, hell no. Absolutely not.
Your brother held out the promise of change, which was the bait on the hook of, I'm not going to satisfy the desire that I'm provoking.
Oh, right. Right, right.
The bait on the hook. Always the bait on the hook.
And that explains it, too.
I couldn't figure out why he was...
Why it was so different for me with him than with everybody else.
Right, because he sensed your desire and wanted to provoke the desire and not satisfy it, right?
Which keeps you coming back. Yeah, that's exactly right.
I mean, everybody else in my family was like, well, shit, glad he's gone.
But with John, it was like...
He kept...
He kept acting like he wanted to come with me.
Sure, absolutely.
Absolutely. And that's tortuous, right?
Yeah. Because it provokes a desire.
And, of course, he had so much power because he was the last family member, right?
Yeah. Go on.
He's your last hope.
And what did he do with that power?
You hurt me with it.
Yes. Yeah, he dangled it out.
That hope, right?
He dangled it out in front of you and then kept taking it away.
That's right. And then you'd get fed up and he would dangle it out in front of you and then he would take it away.
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
Thank you.
I'm so sorry.
And it is your capacity for attachment, and it is your capacity for love, and it is the affection that you had for him that gave him that power over you, right?
Right.
And all the while I was...
I was pointing an accusatory finger at that capacity...
Sorry, all the while, I missed that part.
Well, I kept wanting to find a reason.
I kept wanting to figure out what was wrong with me in that interaction.
No, it's not that.
And I totally understand this.
You've got to go deeper than that.
He wanted you to figure out what was wrong with you.
That's what he wanted.
Everything which continued the interaction without him having to change is what he wanted, not what we wanted.
So, keep coming back.
Right, because you get this stuff emotionally.
You know the truth deep down, right?
Because you're feeling teary and you feel the sadness of having been exploited in this way.
Yeah, yeah.
So, you get this deep down, you understand this deep down.
The layers above it, which is the confusion, are based on what he wanted, right?
It's all his story, right.
That's what he wanted.
Yeah. Right, so just to take a silly example, this Z3KO fellow came into the chat room the other day, and I said, well, this is a little awkward, because I'd asked him to stop posting and so on, right?
And he said, awkward? There's nothing to be awkward about.
There's nothing to talk about, right?
He's like, well, I think there is.
Nope, there's nothing, right? And then he said, oh, and don't worry.
I'm going to keep donating. You don't have to worry about that, right?
And I was like, donating? Do you think that I'm only concerned about your money?
And he's like, no, I don't mean that.
It's like, well, why did you bring up the money then?
It's like, oh, well, sorry, I guess I'll be more careful in the topics that I bring up around you, right?
Oh, man. But that is what he wants.
He wants me to feel like I'm touchy and volatile and, you know, wildly quick to take offense, which, of course, is him, right?
Because he gets angry when I talk about objective value and economics, right?
I mean, that's called being touchy and volatile and quick to take offense, right?
Yeah, that's exactly right.
So he needs me...
To take his poison of touchy, volatile, angry, evasive, and so on, right?
Right. And as it turns out, he was with another FDR listener and he was obviously just doing a demo of, look, I bet you I can get banned in a few minutes.
This is how volatile Steph is, right?
So he came in because he needed for me, he wanted me to feel that I was volatile and irrational and unjust and intolerant and blah, blah, blah.
Right, but when you don't...
But I know when I'm being manipulated, I just banned his ass, right?
Yeah, yeah.
It's like if you can't even be honest, right?
When you say to someone, oh, don't worry, I'm going to keep donating.
That obviously is an insult, right?
Yeah, it's incredibly insulting.
Right, like I gave him all this shit for free, talked to him for an hour and a half about his family, no charge.
And then he says, oh, but you're only interested in money.
That's right. Sorry if you're on.
Sorry about that. So he wants me to absorb that, right?
And we see this occurring all the time, right?
So people come on all kinds of aggressive, and this is not just in the board, and again, this is not the majority by any means of the board interactions, but people come in all aggressive, right?
And then people respond negatively, and they say, oh, you people can't handle the truth, right?
In other words, they come on all aggressive, right?
Provoking a negative response, and then they say, well, you people are aggressive because you're insecure, right?
Yeah. Insecure person comes off aggressive at the beginning, right?
Yeah. They're just saying, you know, eat my shit, frankly.
That's what it comes down to. Right.
I really don't want to, right?
Right, and then they accuse you of being recalcitrant or whatever, right, for not wanting to eat shit.
Right, right, right, right.
So the people who come on all kinds of aggressive and say there's no such thing as ethics, if I don't respond to them, they say, well, why aren't you responding to me as if I'm obligated to?
And they say there's no such thing as ethics.
It's all madness, right?
It's got nothing to do with the pursuit of truth.
Well, because they're painting a picture for themselves, right?
It's got nothing to do with me.
The moment that I feel I have to be cautious and really measure what I say and I feel like nothing I can say is going to result in a positive interaction, the moment that I feel that, I'm like, okay, so clearly I'm in a trap and I'm not going to respond.
Funny game, the only way to win is not to play, right?
Right. So they're trying to put dysfunctional behavior upon me, to put me in an impossible situation, and so on.
And that's, you know, hey, it's a free world.
They can do whatever they want, right? And so it's really important to differentiate your reactions from what your brother wanted you to do.
When we are around someone...
This is why our choice of companions is so important.
When we are around someone, particularly someone we have a long history with, we will do what they want.
We will do what they want.
We can't help it. And this doesn't matter whether you've had a good childhood or a bad childhood or anything in between.
When we are around people, we will do what they want.
Because the whole implicit statement of being around someone is, this person is worthy of interacting with.
And if this person is worthy of interacting with, unconsciously, we say, okay, well, if this person has value, then let's give them what they want.
Right, right.
And as you say, the true self only cares what you do, right?
And so if you're hanging around somebody, then the assumption is that you find value in them.
Right, in which case, you know, we'll give them what they want.
You can't be around someone and not give them what they want.
Now, I certainly do disagree with people when they say stuff.
I genuinely do try to give them what they want.
Just what they really want.
Right. Can I ask you something?
Do you think that this is why, one of the reasons why, anyways, why I have so much trouble being vulnerable?
That having him around, you know, and able to...
To hurt me the way he was, I was sort of making it impossible for myself to be vulnerable elsewhere.
Yeah, the two issues that you have of vulnerability and anger, right?
Yeah. You experience anger as tense irritability, right?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
That's right. Which is interesting because it was only until recently that I could actually feel that around him.
Right, and that's why I suggested the meditation, right?
Because the meditation takes you deep to where the truth is.
Yeah. Yeah, that helped a lot.
I hadn't actually expected much to come of it, but it was unbelievable how helpful it was.
Yeah, the meditation is sitting down at the conference table with the Mico system, right?
It's not filtering. It's not getting those tubes like in 1984 where stuff comes rocketing up and you read it if you want to.
The meditation or any kind of deep inner experience is saying, hey, what is the truth of my relations?
Right. Right.
And I've been doing that every day since and it's helping a lot.
Yes. Yes. Because once we get the deep experience of other people, then we absolutely know when we're in a secure environment, right?
Right, and I think that's why I felt this urge to act so fast after that.
So I just knew that maintaining a relationship with him was not good for me.
Okay.
Right. Right.
Right. Yeah, and I mean, to some degree or another, it's not good for him, but that doesn't particularly matter, because it's not likely...
If his method of solving the problem of powerlessness is to provoke and then deny desire in others, then he's not going to get better, right?
Right. Right.
But it is true that if I do claim to care about him and claim to want to help him, then the only feasible way that I can do that is by ending the relationship.
Well, yes, I agree with you, but the problem is that if the problem in the relationship has primarily arisen from you focusing on his needs...
Which is what he wants you to do.
Right. Then focusing on his needs as a way of ending it is, I don't think, productive.
And not so much productive for your relationship with your brother, but for future relationships.
Right. Right.
No, and that makes a lot of sense, what you were saying earlier about his access to power over me.
That definitely resonated.
And it all goes to the question of vulnerability, right?
I mean, I was letting him sort of reinforce my own inner argument that if you let people get close to you, they're going to abuse you.
Affection is exploitation.
Vulnerability is predation, right?
Being preyed upon. Right.
If you show need, other people will use that need to control you and make you feel powerlessness and give themselves a sense of power, right?
Right, alright. So, my relationship with him was sort of a continuation of my relationship with my parents.
Yes, that is exactly right.
The greatest need that we all had that was mostly denied for most people is the love and approval and security of our parents, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
Right.
That's exactly right.
And so, I mean, I know that this, I certainly remember my experience with my brother, brother and I'm trying as close as hard as I can not to project any of that onto your experience, which is why I've tried to sort of ask what happened and so on.
But knowing what a wrenching transition that was for me, I just wanted to spend a bit of time talking to you about it because I know it was a huge thing that happened only a few days ago.
Yeah.
Well, I appreciate it, Steph.
I really do. I've...
I've been wanting to talk about it since I did it, but I kept worrying that I was just sort of wanting to...
I don't know.
I didn't want to just dump a bunch of self-pity on people.
Well, and I certainly don't experience, I mean, I experience as the way that you're processing this, Greg, I experience as mature and self-critical and self-empathetic and, you know, you are to be enormously commended for not self-attacking during this phase for, I'm a failure and I didn't do things right, you know, let him down and I just couldn't help him and, you know, I think that that's enormous progress in my opinion.
Well, thank you. And I can say pretty fairly confidently that I would not have been capable of it without your help, without the help of the FDR community, for sure.
Oh, it is a bonnie tribe for those who wish to use it well, for sure.
Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely been helpful for me.
And how do you feel now?
I feel...
I still feel sad, but I feel...
I definitely feel relief from...
On one level...
I've been trying...
To just let myself feel whatever comes up about it so that I can kind of relax about the whole thing.
But I've just felt so much tension about it the last couple of days.
After this conversation, I feel a lot more, just a lot more relaxed and a lot more confident about the choice than I had initially.
I mean, I had confidence, but it was sort of like an insistent certainty, if that makes any sense.
Yeah.
Like when you tense up as you're going to jump through a wall of flame.
But now it feels like resignation.
nation.
Which is, I mean, probably one step before acceptance, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, and...
And I do think you're fundamentally right that he's not...
He's not going to change.
And that recognizing the exploitation, I feel some degree of I feel some degree of acceptance in that.
And this is without prejudice insofar as I would not say that he's sort of swirling his greased mustache saying, boo-a-ha, let me use Greg as a poison container, right?
I mean, it's nothing like that, right?
But the fact that he isn't doing it actually makes it worse as far as the diagnosis, right?
The more unconscious he is of this approach to relations, the less likely he is to be able to solve it, right?
Right, that's right.
That's exactly right. And he's...
I'd say he's pretty unconscious about it.
Yes, I certainly have never got a sense of malevolence from him in that way.
No, he's not in any way at all the same kind of malevolence that the rest of my family has.
Agreed. But, of course, in a sense, that makes him more dangerous, right?
Because he's camouflaged. But I've also never got the sense that his empathy interferes with his anxiety avoidance.
What do you mean by that?
Well, his anxiety avoidance is this acting out of these problems and the generation of these problems to maintain the low self-esteem.
That's all anxiety avoidance, right?
Right, right, right.
And if his empathy for you was strong enough, he would get that he was depressing the shit out of you with his complaints, right?
And his requests for help with no subsequent action.
That's a great point. So if he got how unhappy that made you feel, then he would put the brakes on that and say, well, geez, you know, I don't want to lay all this on Greg in the way that you said after you talked to him, well, I'd like to talk about it, but I don't want to burden people, right?
Right. Right, so you had a huge problem, which was the final separation from your foo, and you were concerned about burdening people.
And it's a one-time problem, but your brother has endless little problems that he seems to have no problem whatsoever burdening others with, right?
That's true. That's exactly right.
And that's what I mean when I say his anxiety avoidance is not impeded by his empathy.
Yeah, and...
Yeah, and in that sense, the anguish that he was expressing was always about himself, not about what he was doing to others.
Yeah, I mean, basically, he's a drowning man, and there are some logs in the water, right?
You don't worry about the logs feelings, right?
You just panic the logs so you don't drown, right?
It's that panicked, it's that instinctive, and it's that pathetic, right?
Right, right. And like that story I was telling you earlier about the duet performance, when he was recounting that to me, it was all about...
How hard done by he was.
It was never, you know, what am I doing to them, right?
Yeah, it's all about how hard done by he was, right?
Right. Right.
So there's no sense of like, oh my god, these poor people, they have to change their performance, they must be so frustrated, I feel bad, right?
Right. Right.
Right. And that is empirical evidence that his anxiety avoidance is not impeded by empathy, and in the absence of empathy, a relationship is impossible.
Right. You don't understand the other person's experience.
They don't exist emotionally for you.
Fundamentally. Right, they're just actors in your play.
Right, like this girl, what is it, two months since her mom died?
And he's dating her?
Because he needs a girlfriend.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
It's everywhere when you see it, right?
Yeah, that was something else I was noticing, too.
It became a lot easier to see things, especially with regard to my family, after I had this conversation with him.
Right, so that's the key.
Just look at the evidence of the person's actions.
What do they actually do?
That tells you all that you need to know about what level they're operating at.
And look for whether they show concern for how you feel or whether they even notice how you feel.
Or if they don't notice at the time, do they at least come back to the topic later, right?
I mean, we all have those selfish moments where we sort of sail off on our own self-regard.
But then later you can come back and say, you know, I just, I think I kind of went off on myself there.
How was that for you? Or, you know, in hindsight, I, whatever, right?
It's okay to put mistakes, but do they circle back or do they sail off?
Right. Right.
No, that's exactly right.
And the thing is, too, he had this technique where he would notice it, right?
He would notice how you felt and then would start blaming himself for it, right?
Which puts the focus back on him, right?
Right. It's like, I've noticed that you feel bad and that makes me a shitty person, right?
Right. So the focus is then on his self-attack, not on your feelings, right?
Right, that's exactly right.
So it's just another way of bringing the focus back to himself, right?
And because he lacks empathy with himself, he can't be there for someone else, right?
Because they don't even notice that they're upset.
Or if he does, the only thing he feels is his own feelings about them being upset, not the other person actually being upset.
Right, right, right.
That's exactly how it would go.
So you end up having to manage him when you're the one who's upset.
Yeah. Yeah, and that's sort of my own addiction, right?
Well, again, I would be really careful about the negative self-talk in this area.
I would not call it an addiction.
An addiction generally is something that is chosen and pursued as a result.
Like, we're not born addicted to pot.
We just make those choices in our teenage years or whatever, right?
And then continue to make those choices.
No, that's right. That's right.
Just, again, try and stay off the negative self.
Talk around this. This is what you were punished for not being a poison container, and so that's your default position, right?
Right. Right.
And, no, what I meant by that was just that that was kind of my thing was managing people around me, right?
Right. Well, I don't know what you mean by your thing.
You were certainly being assaulted for not managing people around you.
Right, right, right, right.
I mean, your thing sounds like it's, you know, I like cheese, right?
No, I mean, that's just why it was so, I guess, why we fit together so well, him why we fit together so well, him and I.
Our dysfunctions kind of snap together in that sense, right?
Thank you.
Again, I know that you've got this going back as a gravity well.
It's not equal dysfunctions.
You did not initiate and your acting was out of a kind of caring and empathy, right?
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Right. Yeah, I really have to watch that.
Where your blind spot is is whether you can help, right?
Right. No, that's exactly right.
Whether it's actually a problem.
You're trained to look at the surface story rather than look at the deeper thing, right?
Right. If somebody says I have a problem, I'll just accept it rather than look at the evidence.
Right. Right, right, right.
Right, for sure. Look at the evidence.
If it's a perpetual problem, then it's almost certainly a solution.
Yeah. Yeah.
Alright. That makes a lot of sense.
But, sorry, if you had one more question, go for it.
No, I was just going to say, I just wanted to thank you for all the help you've given me with this.
And, um... I wanted to...
I mean, I have no idea how I'm going to be able to repay this, but I'll figure something out.
Don't worry about that, right?
The important thing is to focus on your own experience of all of this, right?
You've got a huge thing to process here, and there's great wisdom in it, which I'm sure you're aware of, through that processing.
Don't go from worrying about your brother's needs to worrying about mine.
Like, honestly, just processing this, right?
If that makes sense. No, I appreciate that.
How was your experience of this call?
Oh, I thought you did great.
I thought you did great. I think that you're more emotionally available than you've been in the past because you don't go off into theory nearly as much as you used to.
Like, you don't say, yes, Steph, but in podcast 722, you said, right?
Right. So your emotional apparatus is available to the conversation.
And the connections that you are making, you're not using theory to avoid emotional connections, but you're actually making the emotional connections and developing the theory out of that.
In other words, because emotional connections come from the empiricism, the theory is a way of reasoning those out.
And in my opinion, that is the way to develop So, you know, massive, you know, leaps and bounds forward, in my opinion, from prior conversations that we've had, even as little as four to six weeks ago.
So, you know, massive props for that.
I just think that's beyond thrilling.
I mean, to me, it's a huge breakthrough, beyond a huge breakthrough.
It's the biggest breakthrough you could have.
So, I'm just, I'm thrilled and pleased and overjoyed.
Well, thanks. I'm glad it was good.
Yeah, I'm glad I'm whining about people not having breakthroughs has helped.
All right, well, keep you posted, and I will, of course, send you a copy of this and let me know what you think.
Thanks, Daph. All right, man.
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