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Sept. 5, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:27:16
1143 Procrastination and The Anarchy of the Self - A Listener Conversation

The ultimate emptiness of self-control...

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Hello. Hey, how's it going?
Pretty good. How's Maya sound?
Yeah, I can hear you fine. Sounds great.
Okay. Good.
So, I don't really know where to start.
Do you want me to read back to you what you wrote to me and we can sort of start from there?
Sure. Okay.
Well, you originally, you had talked about some tension since you posted about UPB at the Skeptics Guide Forum.
Right. And then you said that you got emails from your dad you hadn't heard from in over a year.
You have ambivalence about trying to recreate a relationship with him, and your grandmother.
You also have ambivalence about her.
And you've done everything you can to avoid thinking about these issues, which is the skeptics post, your interactions with the nihilists, and so on.
And so you said the last thing you wrote was, I'm sad right now, and the thought that preceded it is, what do I do?
I'm lost, but I have a map and I know the way to go.
One part of me knows I need to RTR with myself to move on, but the other part of me does everything it can to avoid the action that is most important to my happiness.
Right. So...
And what action is that?
Is that the RTR with yourself, or is that something else?
Yeah, the RTR with myself.
I find myself recently, it's not just in RTI-ing with myself, but just in everything that I, you know, the things that I want to do to To make my life what I want it to be,
not just in my relationship with myself, but in my relationship with my work and my relationship with my just day-to-day activities.
There's a bunch of things that I've wanted to do that I find myself just putting off everything recently, like Extreme procrastination to the point where, you know, I haven't cleaned my apartment in a long time.
I haven't. I had all summer to get my lessons in order for this coming term and I didn't.
None of it. And, of course, the most important thing is this RT-ing with myself, which I have.
I did it a little bit after I broke up with my girlfriend in June, but then I just stopped.
And as of recently, I've started drinking more, not excessively, but just more than I was in the last six months or so.
Instead of having a drink with friends once or twice a month, it's been like...
Drinking at home, you know, every other night or three times a week or something like that.
And when you say drinking at home, what do you mean?
I mean, like, a couple of beers.
Just by myself while I'm on the internet or watching TV or whatever.
Right, okay. And, yeah, I just...
I just, I don't know where to start.
There's so many things going on that I just don't know what I should do.
I just don't, I mean, I don't know how to stop the procrastination.
I mean, I've listened to your procrastination videos and thinking about, yeah, there's nothing I have to do I understand that, but then there's, you know, there's these things that I really want to do, like, be really happy.
And the things that I know are required for that goal, I'm also procrastinating on.
Right, right. Right, which means that you're ambivalent about the goal, right?
Right, I guess. I mean, sorry, that's not obvious, right?
But to take the example, if you've really got to pee, right?
You've been skiing all afternoon and it's really cold and you've really got to pee, you're not ambivalent about going to pee, right?
Right. Your goal is to relieve your bladder and you do it, right?
Hopefully your zipper doesn't get stuck in the snowsuit, right?
Or whatever, right? But But you just go do it, right?
So that's an example of a goal that's not ambivalent, right?
Right. And I don't want to interrupt what you want to say, so please continue if you want to, but I can ask questions at any time.
I have really nothing else to say at this moment.
How's your life as a whole these days, the arc of your life, the big picture of your life?
Like you look back at this period in say 10 years, what are you going to think and feel about it?
I'm not sure exactly what you mean.
I like I How am I going to look at how I've spent my time during this period of my life?
Yeah, I mean, we have a kind of arc, in my opinion, sort of, About her life, right?
And so, you know, if you become a doctor, you go to med school, you have an arc, you know, you go, you become an intern, then you become a doctor, you work for other people for a while, then you set up a private practice, and, you know, there's kind of like an arc, right?
Right. Well, go ahead.
Sorry, you can have lots of different arcs in life, like I've had actor, student, software guy, philosophy guy, so you can have, it's not like it's all going to be one thing.
But how's the overall arc of your life and where you are and where you're going and how do you feel about your life, not in the day by day, but in the bigger picture arc of things?
Well, to be honest, in the bigger arc of things, I feel pretty confident.
I mean, I'm working right now.
The only thing I'm not procrastinating on is my study of the language and my development of my ideas about what I want to do in the future as far as work goes.
Those things...
I feel very comfortable with.
And also, I mean, I've come to a point where I understand what my past relationships have been.
So as far as the arc of finding the right woman and getting into a relationship that I can be happy in, I feel comfortable in my progression there.
But those things are things involving other people.
as far as the arc of what I'm doing for myself looking at this past two months I look like I feel like I'm going backwards if that makes sense Sorry, in what way do you feel that you're going backwards?
Like, I just feel like I'm more distant from myself now than I was, you know, four months ago, three months ago.
Thank you.
And, yeah, I don't know where that's coming from.
I don't know what that...
I feel like I'm not making any sense.
No, no, you're doing just fine, right?
I mean, if you were a laser of precision at the moment, then you wouldn't be procrastinating, right?
So this is no problem, right?
So, I mean, you said that you broke up with your girlfriend in June.
Can you tell me a little bit about that?
Yeah, it was just...
I had been thinking about doing it for a long time and was...
Very ambivalent about it.
But, you know, with a few talks with Mr.
C on the chatroom and thinking about it, I just realized that there was no real future in that relationship, so we...
Well, I ended it, which was...
It was very difficult at the time in that she was...
I think she wasn't expecting it.
And she was very...
She was, of course, very sad and things like that.
But also she said some things during the breakup that made me realize that it was not a bad decision.
So I feel very comfortable with it.
She said some stuff like, oh, you just do your own way.
You're not considerate of other people's feelings.
You don't feel any love, so you end up a relationship even though I feel love.
Things like that. When she said that, I was like...
That's pretty horrible, right?
Right, yeah. I mean, when she said that, it's like...
Wow. And actually, those statements are the first statement that I was able to kind of access my Miko system with.
I talked with myself about those statements and just really...
Came to a very comfortable place with the breakup.
Like the first week after we broke up, maybe first week, week and a half, I was really just kind of sad every day and I just couldn't get her out of my mind with things.
And then from that moment with the Miko system and focusing on those things that she said that were really horrible really helped.
Now, was it late June that you...
Was it early or late June that you broke up?
Early June. Okay.
And you haven't spoken since, is that right?
With her? Yeah.
No, I've spoken with her.
Oh, you have spoken with her. Okay.
And what's that been like? Just real friendly.
She, a couple weeks ago, was in my town and she said, you know, I'm going to be around Do you want to meet for dinner?
And I thought about it and I thought, you know, I don't feel very comfortable with this.
And I sent, you know, I talked to her about it, saying, you know, I don't know what's your reason for wanting to do this.
Is it not? Don't you think it might be too soon?
And she said, you know, I just want to meet his friends.
And I thought, what the hell, give it a try.
And it wasn't so bad. I mean, it wasn't bad at all.
It was very friendly and not uncomfortable at all having the dinner with her.
And then we have a mutual friend that was performing in a festival and we met in the big city nearby to see her in that festival and then after that I left and went and met some other friends.
I've seen her twice, but I don't know if I'm going to go see her again, just because both of those times, while they were pleasant enough, they weren't exactly spectacular.
And considering their previous sexual relationship, I just don't see any point in continuing.
Okay, so just step me through this bit.
So she says these horrible things to you, right?
Right. Like, you're selfish, you are cold, you know, just really wounding things, right?
Right. These things are horrible to hear, right?
They do a lot of damage, right?
Yeah. And the damage that they do is not just about...
The future, but it's also about the past, right?
Because what you do, or at least I think what you do, is you look back and you say, who is this person that I was with?
How long were you guys together? A year and a half.
A year and a half, so you say, holy shit, I was with someone for a year and a half who could say these things to me.
Isn't that kind of, like, I don't want to put any words in your mouth, but when you think about it in that way, and you may have, of course, I mean, what does it feel like when you think about it like that?
Um.
Um.
I'm having a hard time accessing any feelings, thinking about it that way.
Um, I felt for a minute, for a moment, a sadness, but it's gone already.
But it wasn't about the feeling, it wasn't about thinking about it for the past year and a half that brought to sadness.
The sadness was more thinking about How I could easily, so easily forget that.
Well, and look, I have extraordinary sympathy for you for this, right?
I mean, this is, it speaks volumes about the degree of emotional sensitivity that wasn't there when you were being raised, right?
Right. So tell me, do you want me to ask a question?
I don't want to put you on the spot if you're kind of in a numb place.
So if you want to talk, obviously feel free.
I'm happy to keep asking questions if you're finding this to be helpful.
Yeah, questions are good.
Okay. So how long was it between the time that she said these terrible things to you and when you saw her at the festival?
Or you had dinner with her?
Yeah, about two months.
And you had no contact during that two-month period?
Only extremely superficial.
I had borrowed some money shortly before we broke up, and just the contact was things about that.
But besides that, no real contact, no.
Now, did she ever apologize to you for the things that she said?
No. She didn't?
No. Now, because nobody's perfect in relationships, we all say stuff that we regret and so we, you know, man up and we apologize and so on.
Now, did you say things to her that were cruel during the breakup or were you mostly a punching bag in that way?
Um... I didn't think of anything that I said to her as cruel at the time.
And I don't recall anything.
I mean, I was really just...
I tried to be as honest with her about my reasons as possible.
Things like...
I mean...
Something I just thought of that may be cruel, I'm not sure.
But I told her, you know, the reason that I don't see that we can continue this way is because I don't feel like you have a path.
I feel like you're just trying to latch on to my path, like you have no ambition for yourself, and I can't be happy.
In a relationship with someone like that.
Right. And look, breakups are really tough because I think that we do owe people some truth if we've been together with them for a while.
And now, I don't think that you were saying that she was a bad person, just that you had mismatched levels of ambition, right?
Right. Yeah. I mean, I never...
I never said anything along the lines of, you're a bad person and so I want to leave you.
Mostly when we broke up I talked about how I was not listening to myself, how I was not doing what was in my best interests.
And that's what brought up, I think, the selfish comment.
I really was focusing on myself.
I'm sorry, you said you expressed your true thoughts and feelings.
You weren't being manipulative. I'm sure what you're saying is correct.
And you're saying that is what brought up the selfish comment?
Well, I think from her point of view, yeah, that looks like very selfish.
I mean, considering the culture she was raised in.
Right, so Japanese, right?
Okay. But why would you flip into her perspective, right?
Because you understand that your perspective and her perspective are kind of merged in this story?
Right. Well...
I think that... Sorry, I think that it's important to differentiate these two perspectives.
Okay. Well, from my perspective, I was just talking about myself.
Okay. There were a few things I mentioned about what I thought of her as far as her ambition and her goals in life and how she was always kind of distanced emotionally and I talked about those things but for the most part it was just I really focused on what I was feeling, thinking about the relationship.
Right. Sorry, had you had any conversations with her prior to this breakup about mismatches in ambition and so on?
Nothing... Nothing explicit.
I mean, I had asked her before many times about, you know, what does she want to do, and I always got, I don't know, or...
Just want to have kids, things like that.
And those conversations always ended very quickly, because there was just nowhere to go with that.
Or at least I thought there was nowhere to go with it at the time.
And was she fairly upfront about this early on in the relationship, that she was not particularly ambitious?
Looking back, yeah.
It was pretty clear from the beginning.
Right, so you're like...
I guess you exchanged I love yous, right?
No. She said it, but I never reciprocated.
You never said it? Because I never felt...
You never felt it? Yeah, I never felt it.
So... So from her standpoint, I mean, people obviously latch out when they're hurt.
That's no big insight, but...
So she's like, well, I'm the same person that you were with a year ago, a year and a half ago.
I haven't changed.
I haven't become a different person.
But now, I'm not enough, right?
Yeah. And that's kind of frustrating for someone, right?
Right. I'm not saying, I mean, look, you had to take care of yourself and, you know, there's no point being in a relationship with someone you don't love.
But was it that you didn't value yourself?
Ambition as much a year and a half ago, or how was it okay and then not okay?
I valued ambition, but it was lower on my hierarchy of values than my value of having someone to have sex with, to be honest.
Well, that's frank. I mean, that's good, right?
That means we don't have to beat around the bush, so to speak.
Yeah. So, was it like you used her for sex kind of thing?
Was that the idea? Well, it wasn't...
I didn't feel like I was using her for sex at the time.
My thoughts were, you know, she's a really nice girl.
You know, we both enjoy the sex.
And... Maybe she'll change, is what I thought, throughout most of the relationship.
It was when I started listening to FDR and started realizing people don't change.
I don't know why I keep thinking this.
That I started to question that train of thought, but at that point we had already been together for 9 or 10 months.
It was kind of like, well, I've already put this much into it.
Let's keep going.
I don't even know at that point.
But the initial...
The starting of the sexual part of the relationship was never about, let's just get this girl into bed.
it was more like, you know, she's really nice, she's interesting to talk to, but I think that might have been mostly because of the language difference, looking back. but I think that might have been mostly because of But yeah, at the time it was just like...
I had no problem getting into a, you know, somewhat entertaining, fun...
Like we enjoyed spending time with each other, and there was sex, but there was never love.
Well, for you. Yeah, for my side.
Just out of curiosity, are you outside?
It sounds like there are cars going through your living room.
My apartment's right by the road where cars are going by all the time.
Oh, okay. Just wondering if there was a window.
It's just the window inside.
Sure. Okay, now, would you like me to, I mean, I can either make my own decision or if you have a preference, of course, would you like me to focus on the relationship or on the subsequent procrastination?
Well... To me, the two are not unrelated, but it's your call.
I wasn't really thinking about the relationship, but if you think that the procrastination might be related to that, I'm willing to go there.
Well, isn't what you just talked to me about a big procrastination?
Yeah. Am I leading too much into that, or did I miss something?
It seems to me, right? No, I just missed something.
I didn't even see that.
Yeah, that was a huge procrastination.
Right, so it's not a new thing, right?
Yeah. So, go on.
Um... Go on where, sorry.
Well, what was the feeling that you got when you got that procrastination thing?
Because I didn't have to explain any of it, right?
You got it, like, right away.
Tell me what you got there. It was just a bit of a self-attack.
A bit of some fog language.
It was a self-attack.
The first thing I thought was, I can't believe you didn't see that.
Right, like, you idiot kind of thing?
Yeah. Right. So, I mean, in a sense, the relationship was killing time, right?
Having sex and killing time, and having fun.
I mean, I'm obviously not saying that it was nothing there, but you were treading water, right?
Yeah, that's a great metaphor for it.
That's exactly what I was doing. So, I mean, there's a kind of procrastination in that.
When you started to get interested in philosophy, I mean, obviously, I throw lots of dire and dramatic sounding warnings into the podcast when I start in on relationships saying, you know, the landscape will look different at the end of this, a lot different than at the beginning, right?
But that wasn't something that you took hugely seriously, right?
No. I mean, of course, there was a part of me that was like, yeah, this makes a lot of sense.
It's very true. I need to heed these warnings, but my actions, absolutely not.
And did you attempt to share, I'm sure you did, what were your attempts to share your growing interest in philosophy with your girlfriend?
Um... Initially, it was superficial things about the state and about the existence of gods and supernatural things and paranormal things.
And she was pretty accepting of most of those things.
I think that's part of what Led me to want to continue.
She very quickly said, yeah, it doesn't make much sense to have a state, does it?
And she was atheist before we met.
She still has some supernatural beliefs, things like the soul and whatnot, but we didn't really delve too deep into those.
And then it came to a point around the beginning of This year, I suppose, where I really started to get into the family and emotional stuff,
and compared to the previous openness about talking about no gods and no states, she shut down really quickly every time Every time we tried to get anywhere with the emotional or familial discussions.
Well, and I mean, given her culture, that's not a shock, right?
Right. I mean, that's a family-centric culture, to say the least, right?
Yeah, right. All right.
So, and how long ago was this that you started to bring this topic up?
It really started...
So we went together to California to visit my family and my friends during Christmas.
And I started talking about this stuff after I came back.
Because that was actually the first time I had read On Truth while I was on that trip.
Oh, really? Yeah.
So you brought On Truth.
Oh, that's interesting. A bold choice.
Yeah. Well, I had figured that On Truth was pretty much the, you know, a very similar message to everything I was getting in the podcast, and I was spending so much time going through the podcast that, you know, I bought On Truth for friends and stuff, just as an introduction without reading it.
Just because, you know...
I had gotten so much out of the podcast that I figured a short book like that would be a great introduction for people that don't listen to podcasts.
Right. But after listening to On Truth, I guess shortly after that, RTR came out and I started to read that.
And going through those books really led to the focus.
So I guess it was about January or February that I started reading These kind of conversations with her.
Right, and they never went very far, right?
I mean, she sounds a little passive, right?
A little is an understatement.
Yeah, I'm sure it is, right?
Sorry, here I am speaking Swiss suddenly.
I'm trying to be delicate.
I'm not very good at that. So she's like, yeah, there's no God, right?
But then, of course, the fierce defense of the family, right?
Or the fierce avoidance of topics that would be Anxiety-provoking in that way, right?
Right. Like, I mean, she is so passive.
So, of course, my first thought is it's her...
You know, when she was a child, things that happened then.
Well, sure. Anytime we tried to delve into that, you know, she just...
It's like, I can't remember, there's nothing special, you know, I don't know why you want to talk about this, it's in the past, and things like this.
It's just very difficult to go anywhere.
Not difficult, it was impossible.
Well, I mean, this is going to be a gross generalization, but I still will say it, that the oriental culture does not recognize the unconscious.
Right. It's like, why would something that happened 20 years ago have any possible effect on me now?
It's like you're trying to bandage a cut knee that I got when I was five years old.
Right. They haven't gone through the, you know, post-medieval Renaissance Enlightenment through to the 19th century revolution in human thinking where we accept and understand that The unconscious and the long-term effects of early experiences.
Well, yeah, I mean, generally I think that's true.
There does seem to be a rise in psychology clinics.
But from what I understand, most of the population doesn't visit them much.
It's a small minority that is starting to understand that kind of Western advance.
Yeah, you're definitely right on the whole.
Right, and you can't talk philosophy with people who don't understand the unconscious.
Because they won't be able to understand where their defenses of the logical arguments comes from.
Right, they will always project their discomfort With the logical arguments onto you and it will become manipulative.
Right. And they won't be able to say, wow, I got upset, I wonder why.
They can't RTR. Again, I'm not talking about all Orientals.
I'm talking about people who don't have the unconscious down as something they respect.
They will get upset and they will just immediately externalize that upset, right?
What do you mean externalize?
In what way?
Well, if I'm talking, just to take a silly example, if I'm talking with a Christian, as I was on this Michael Bednarik show, and I talk about secular ethics, right?
Right. Well, the Christians all got mad, right?
Yeah. Now, if they recognize the unconscious, and God knows religious people are bad at recognizing the unconscious, because religion is just this monstrous fucking projection anyway...
But if they had recognized the unconscious, they would have been saying, well, why am I upset?
All this guy is doing is talking about secular ethics.
So what, right? But when they get upset, they would, first of all, they would have to understand that they're upset because they have doubts about religion, not because I am not religious.
Right. And so, somebody who was aware of something called the unconscious would say, why am I getting so upset?
It can't be the other person who is simply a nice fellow talking on the radio.
Right. Therefore, it must be something in me, right?
And of course, it comes down to being lied to as a child and bullied into believing this cultish nonsense called religion.
And, of course, the harm that you've done to other people if you're this kind of person, especially if you're a parent, all that untruth stuff.
I mean, it brings up a lot of complicated and hostile and upset and angry feelings for people.
Because, of course, if the secularists who have already taken over science and biology and physics—sorry, science, biology is sort of redundant— But if we also take over ethics, then what the hell is the point of believing in a god?
I mean, ethics is the last stand of Christianity.
So when I start to chisel away at that, they get all freaked out, right?
But they're unconscious, so all they do is project it and say that I'm doing something bad, right?
Right. And so you have caught this a little bit as an infection.
We have to be careful with the people we spend time around, particularly unconscious people.
That's why I pointed out earlier, when you said...
She called me selfish because I was speaking in a selfish manner.
Right. Because that is a non...
That's a very unsophisticated way of putting it, and of course I know that you're a very sophisticated and intelligent man, so that's the kind of infection that we get from the people we spend time with if they're unconscious.
Right. Right.
Right. Right.
All she does is avoid the unconscious, and the whole culture, if you look at Oriental and Japanese culture in particular, it's all about avoiding the unconscious, right?
It's all high stimulus, it's all shrieky, it's all yelly, it's all outward show, it's all status, it's all whatever, right?
Yeah, that's true.
It's very true. So, and these are crazy game shows, right?
It's just mad stimulus, right?
Yeah. The lower the level of sophistication, the more external stimulus is needed, right?
To counter the inner emptiness and depression.
Oh, yeah. It's another place that's really clear.
It's just in the general fashion.
These insane fashions here in Japan.
Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure.
And the agony comes out in these freaky, horrifying Ghibli movies or whatever.
Some of the freaky anime.
Anyway, we don't have to get into all of that.
Sorry, you were going to say? No, it's just...
I just never have thought about it that way before.
That makes a lot of sense, though.
Yeah, for sure. And you have the...
I mean, you've experienced this, right?
That you got progressively...
You weren't boxed in in the beginning because you were not trying to expand in this kind of way, right?
Right. But then you sure got boxed in over time.
When you began to try and grow, and you ran very quickly into the barriers in your relationship, right?
Right. And there was no possibility that you could reach that part of her that would be willing to say, in the good old RTR fashion, I'm upset and I don't know why.
She always had an answer as to why she was upset, right?
Yeah, I mean, if she'd even admit she was upset.
Right, right, right. Yeah, I mean, the first defense is denial, right?
And then it's projection.
So she says, I'm not upset.
And then she says, well, I'm upset because you keep pestering me about this childhood stuff, which is not important.
Right. In other words, I'm upset because of what you're doing.
Isn't that the basic mantra?
Either I'm not upset, or I'm only upset because of what you're doing.
Oh, yeah. And that's exactly what the breakup was like.
And I bet you if you look further back, she was setting off these landmines all over the place and you were getting more and more inhibited until you just gave up, right?
Yeah. Give up is a good description of it.
You know, for the last two months of the relationship or so, maybe even longer, I just didn't even bother trying talking about it.
She just continued...
In the relationship, it's getting more and more frustrated with you.
Right, right. And, I mean, of course, you knew that the end was coming, but, you know, there's lots of...
So, there was lots of procrastination.
I mean, you had the tools, right, for sure.
I mean, you could have called me, right, eight months ago.
Yeah. And I'm not saying you should have.
I mean, it's a process, right?
Yeah. So there's a lot of procrastination in 2008 for you?
Yeah. Crossing your fingers, hoping for the best, things will turn around, something will change, right?
Right. Because I bet you knew a long time ago that it was not going to be a woman you were going to spend the rest of your life with.
Yeah. Yeah, I did.
And again, I'm not criticizing.
I mean, this is nothing like that, just so you understand.
I'm trying to give you a sense so you can avoid the stuff of the future, but sorry, you were going to say.
I almost don't want to say it just because it sounds so stupid, but I knew I didn't.
I wasn't going to spend the rest of my life with her before I even went to California with her.
Oh, I mean, I have no doubt of that.
I mean, it doesn't sound stupid.
To me, it would be crazy if you did think you were going to spend the rest of your life with her.
That would be really bad, right?
Right. I guess so.
Sorry, you said you guess so?
No, yeah, you're right.
It would have been worse to have thought I did have a chance with her.
Now, did she think that she was going to spend the rest of her life with you?
you?
And I'm not saying this is the only reason you ever get together with someone, but you know, you, you would get this woman for a good, good chunk of time, right?
Yeah.
Um, I am pretty sure she did.
Just from the kinds of things she talked about, the way she acted, and also just generally because of her age.
She was 25, and basically in Japan if you're a 25-year-old woman and you're not married yet, every relationship from then on out is, alright, this is the one.
Yeah, that's not just a pen, but...
Okay, and so this woman that you were not going to marry, ever, you took to see your parents over Christmas.
Well, not my parents, but...
Sorry, your family. Right.
How do you think she...
I mean, how did she perceive that in terms of where your relationship was going?
I think she probably perceived it as a big step.
She never said anything about how she perceived it.
She just...
But you know. Yeah.
Yeah. She saw it as a big step.
Well, she thought the next thing is the ring, right?
Yeah. I mean, I'm not really...
Tell me if I'm off base, right?
I mean, this is your relationship, right?
But... No, I mean, I don't know if she expected it immediately, but I am sure that's what her thought was, the next step in the relationship was.
Alright, here comes a ring.
Well, I mean, yeah, I agree with you.
It's not like on the plane home, but there's not a lot of steps between come and stay with my family and here's a ring, right?
Right. Right.
Right. And so, was she hanging on for that, do you think?
That's what she wanted, right?
Yeah. Yeah, that's what she wanted.
She wanted the ring. So, she wanted to marry you.
You, in no way, shape, or form, were ever going to marry her, right?
Certainly not after January.
Yes, certainly not after January.
So, it's a... It's a little cruel, right?
I mean, I don't mean to sound harsh, right?
No, it is. And that's, I mean, that realization is what finally said, you know, I gotta stop putting this off and just do it, just end it.
You mean part of that sort of she's waiting for a ring and I'm not gonna marry her?
Well, yeah.
The cruelty of continuing a relationship that I knew wasn't going anywhere and that she was expecting to end up in a relationship.
And for that, you should totally be commended, in my opinion.
I think that was a very gentlemanly, mature, and positive step.
Thanks. No, it's hard, right?
I mean... Because, you know, we're guys.
Nothing changes for us. We can cook along like Groundhog Day, right?
Every day is the same as the last.
We've got no clock. We don't have, you know, our wombs aren't ticking, you know, that kind of stuff, right?
Right. The comfort of the everyday in the immediate moment always seems better than the drama of a breakup, right?
Yeah. But, you know, I just had a thought that it was cruel again to go back to give in and see her again.
In this past month, just because by going to see her so soon, that might be...
Maybe she has an idea that maybe we can still get back together.
Maybe she has an idea that there's still some chance.
Oh, sorry. Yes, I think that...
And this is just my opinion. It doesn't mean anything, right?
But I think you were cruel going back to see her, but not for the reason you think.
Really? Yeah. What's the reason you think?
Well, the reason that I think that you were cruel, and again, doesn't mean you were, it's just my thoughts, right?
But the reason that I think you were cruel was that you didn't bring up how much she'd hurt you in the breakup.
Right. I see how that's bad for me, but actually I don't see how it's cruel to her.
Well, um... Because she didn't bump up against anyone and understand that her actions were hurtful.
You were enabling her habits of this kind of cruelty to continue, right?
Because you go see her like, hey, everything's fine.
Yeah, we're good. Yeah, we had a breakup, but we can be palsy, right?
Right. Yeah, you said horrible things to me that laid me really low, but I'm not going to bring them up and let's have a pleasant dinner.
That's real vengeance there.
Vengeance.
Vengeance, yeah.
Because you're condemning her to repeat this mistake by not giving her any feedback other than nothing happened.
Everything's fine. You weren't cruel.
That's real cruel, in my opinion.
Right. I know this is an obtuse thing, but tell me what you think of it.
No, it makes sense.
It makes a lot of sense.
She's never going to date another guy.
Almost never. There's almost no possibility she's going to date another guy who's read RTR and has the capacity to speak honestly with her about her bad behavior during a breakup, right?
Right. So you had one chance she had to see how destructive she could be.
Yeah, and that's when I talked to Mr.
C back in June before we broke up.
That's what we talked about.
He said the same thing.
He said the same thing.
That, you know, by breaking up with her, by ending it, I'm giving her a chance to To have a real relationship, because she can see that she doesn't...
that people don't have to be...
don't have to be tied down to the other person's...
to the other person's feelings.
Like, there's no obligation to someone else if you're not feeling something, you can...
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about, but perhaps you're going somewhere with that.
Well, it's the same kind of thing.
Part of what helped me finally just do it was thinking that by ending this, I'm doing something good for me and her, but through going back to it, But going back to having just this friendly relationship with her, I just...
But that's bad for her. Let me try...
I don't think I made my point very well.
I'll try it once more.
We don't have to spend too long on it.
But if you want her to have a better relationship with someone in the future than she had with you, and it sounds like part of what you want for her...
Right....then not telling her that she has the capacity for painful cruelty...
that she does it again in the future.
That's wrecking her future relationships as well.
Right.
Now, if you tell her, you know, look, you're...
Right. that you ever want to hear this from and you can just hear me out then you can call me an idiot and hang up if you want I want you to have a better relationship with a man than you had with me and I'm telling you if you if you want that too you've got to look into the degree to which you can hurt someone verbally because that's not good for a relationship because it really hurt me and I can't come to dinner and pretend that nothing happened Because,
I mean, it laid me low for weeks.
Now, she may say you're a jerk and hang up on you, but your conscience is clear, right?
Because you gave her as much of an opportunity as possible to see her dark side, right?
Whereas if you just go to dinner like nothing happened, you're sealing her in that tomb, so to speak.
And I'm not trying to make you feel bad, and it's certainly, it's not a huge deal, but I think it's important for you to understand that you got her back, right?
Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense.
That makes a lot of sense.
So, the procrastination that you've seen you feeling over the last two months, is that right?
Yeah. This is not a new thing.
As far as I can see.
And we've just talked about your relationship, but that was, I think, the big issue, right?
I mean, over the last six months or so.
Well, it wasn't the only one, but it was the biggest one, yeah.
Right, because you've got a lot of family stuff as well, right?
Right. You know, there's an old Greek saying, it says, take what you want and then pay for it, right?
Yeah. Life's a buffet, but you get a bill every day, right?
Right. And you, I mean, a little bit, a little bit, I'm not saying it's the only thing, but you used the woman a little bit for sex and companionship and didn't sit down and say, look, if you want to get married, I don't feel that way, which you probably knew on the third date, right?
Yeah. Right, so you kind of burned up 18 months of her life, right?
Yeah. And yours, right, of course, right?
But she's on a different schedule, right?
Right. And so, while I just certainly, it's no, what do you care about my opinions, but it means no criticism or anything like that, but the reality is that you got the Saxon companionship, right? Yeah.
But... You weren't acting with great honesty, right, during this period?
Yeah, no, I wasn't being convinced at all for mostly.
Right, so when we spend a year and a half in that kind of situation, there's, you know, take what you want and pay for it, right?
And so afterwards, you're going to feel depressed and kind of empty, right?
Right. And you're going to feel not hugely proud...
Right? Yeah. I mean, it's not like you look back and say, this was a grand love that just didn't work out, right?
Right. This was kind of like a sad little fling that just went on way too long.
Right. Which was negative for both of you.
And of course, since you've been around FDR for a long time, You could have picked up the phone anytime, right?
I got Sunday shows every week, right?
Yeah, well, the Sunday shows are no good for me because of the time.
It's like four in the morning, so...
Oh, come on. I mean, I know what you mean.
Oh, come on. Please don't give me that.
You're so intelligent.
Oh, man. Have you ever got up at four o'clock in the morning to catch a plane?
Uh, yeah. Okay, so you could get up at four o'clock in the morning if it's important enough for you, right?
Yeah, yeah, right.
Or, you know, you could have pinged, I mean, I pinged you and said, do you want to talk about this?
Because you were telling me you were feeling upset.
This is not the end of the world for either of us as far as the time goes, right?
That's true. Right. I mean, there are plenty of other opportunities.
There's no excuse. No, no.
I'm not trying to criticize you at all, right?
I mean, look, you're so far ahead of me and only having spent a year and a half in this kind of situation that I envy you and will go to my grave envying that it's only 18 months.
I mean, so I'm in no ivory tower throwing stones here.
So just so you understand that, I spent years and years in this sort of situation.
So I'm not saying, oh, you have no excuse.
You should have done this. I'm not saying any of that.
What I'm trying to do is to help you to understand that you want to get to this place.
This procrastination is very important for you.
This procrastination is essential because you engineered your life to get here.
I lost it.
I'm not following what you mean.
Like, the procrastination is good?
Oh, the procrastination for you is excellent.
Because you didn't even feel the procrastination.
The fact that you're feeling this procrastination is fantastic.
Because you didn't even feel the procrastination in your year and a half long relationship.
This is a massive step forward.
Right. But I mean, I've always known that I've been prone to procrastination and other things.
But you're saying that it's the fact, even despite that knowledge of procrastination in my own life, the fact that I didn't notice it and the most important thing in my life relationship with someone else, it's important that I'm feeling it now?
Yeah, I mean, in a lot of ways, procrastination is tied to this fantasy of immortality, right?
I will have an infinity to get it right later down the road, right?
Right. But, you know, you've got 10 years to find a mate, and you just spend 20% of it on something that didn't work out, right?
Yeah. So you don't have forever, right?
And you have a lot less of forever than you did before.
So the fact that you're feeling procrastination means that you're noticing the passage of time and your unconscious is sounding all of these alarms saying there's too much that's unconscious for us.
for us to succeed in a relationship.
Because you didn't notice time passing.
In a way, obviously you did, but you didn't notice time passing when you were in a relationship with this woman, right?
Not enough to do something about it, right?
Right, you didn't even know that you were procrastinating really, right?
Because when I told you, you were like, oh my god, right?
Right, right, yeah.
So the fact that you're noticing procrastination at the moment is really important.
And really... I mean, it's something to be really proud of.
I know that sounds weird. It is something to be enormously proud of.
That you have self-RTR to the point where you're really beginning to notice procrastination and the difficulty that it brings into your life.
But I don't feel like it's RTR that brought it to me.
It's just... I don't know, it's just frustration, but I guess if I know it's frustration, then we have to do ATR. I don't know, but I feel like I haven't been doing ATR. You have to look at what you did in this relationship, if I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, that you hadn't done before, which was you began to really talk about your thoughts and feelings, right?
Right. So this was new, right?
Yeah. Okay, so you really began to talk about your thoughts and feelings.
And you bumped up against somebody else's indifference, fundamental indifference, right?
Yeah. And hostility, right?
Yeah. Now, tell me that was not a recreation of a childhood situation.
You mean the indifference and the hostility?
That you sharing what you really care about and think about and feel is met with indifference or hostility.
Oh, yeah. I mean, not just a childhood one, but yeah, it's something that's continued throughout my life with when dealing with members of my family.
Right, and the way that you've solved it, like all of us lost tribe, the way that you've solved it is to avoid talking about your thoughts and feelings, right?
Yeah. Well, because of this annoying brain viral infection of RTR, that's not really a viable option for you anymore, right?
Right. Sorry, go ahead.
I was going to say that, you know, part of the frustration with the procrastination recently is that the procrastination is also involved in RTR. I'm procrastinating RTRing with myself, but that is creating a lot of frustration because I know that it's not something that I can continue.
It's not something that you can continue not RTRing with yourself?
Yeah, right. If I don't continue, if I continue not RTRing with myself, I'm going to lose myself.
And I know that's not something I'm going to do.
Can you tell me what you mean by lose yourself?
I mean, you know, false self-consumption of the true self, like you've talked about before, you know, where there's just that point where the true self can't come back.
Yeah, that's not going to happen to you.
That happens to people who are willfully, consciously, and repeatedly cruel to others.
Not to people who just let a girl go despite his desire for sex and companionship because he didn't want to completely ruin her chances of getting married.
It's important to make sure that – and I hope that somebody who's as interested in psychology and philosophy as you are is not going to be somebody who gets swallowed up by the false self.
I think of those people like my mom or my dad or, you know, these weird freaky-ass trolls on the board and stuff like that, right?
Right. That's not you.
There's not a big quagmire or chasm that's about to swallow up your true self.
That's going to make you pretty stressed, right?
Right. And it's not that I see it immediately.
It's just like...
The thought is, if the procrastination continues and I just never do it...
I mean...
Eventually, there's got to be a point where there's no going back.
Back to what? I mean, there's no...
There's no return from not...
RTRing with yourself. Okay, let's say that that's true.
Do you think that it is a good way to motivate someone?
Let's say you're a coach, right?
Do you think it's a good way to motivate someone to come to training by saying that they will die a painful and deadening spiritual death if they don't come and train?
I mean, if you had a kid, is that how you'd motivate your kid in baseball?
Your soul will die if you don't come and practice.
Right. No.
Do you understand that that's not a good way to motivate someone?
Yeah. Do you think that's a good way to motivate yourself?
No. Do you understand that you don't have a model of positive, kind, gentle and encouraging motivation?
Yes. Go on.
I don't have a model for that.
There's been no one in my life that has tried to motivate me with kindness and gentleness.
It was never motivation through penalties.
It was more the carrot and the stick kind of motivation.
Yeah, I'm getting a lot of people who do not much carrot at the moment, right?
Right. Yeah, that doesn't make sense.
I mean, you've basically said, my soul will die if I don't do this, and that's just, oh my god.
I mean, it's like about as motivating as a hangman's noose.
Right. Right. I mean, it's like you're putting a curse on yourself that you'll become some sort of undead human being, right?
Yeah. And that, I mean, we don't have to get into your childhood because I don't want to keep you up all day, or me up all night, more accurately.
But it's clear to me that when someone wanted you to do something when you were a kid, they would just bully or bribe you, right?
Right. Nobody ever said, what do you want to do?
Or if you don't want to do something, I wonder why.
Right. Absolutely not yet.
That never happened. Right.
So, you don't, I think...
Want to take on this persecution thing as an adult when you don't have to anymore, right?
I mean, persecuting yourself was a perfectly viable, perfectly healthy, sensible survival strategy when you were a kid.
But holding up these, the end of the world is nigh doom stickers at the moment to motivate yourself into becoming curious and empathetic with yourself clearly will never work, right?
Yeah. You can't bully someone into having empathy.
Right. You can't scare someone into being curious.
Especially with yourself.
Yeah, you can't hold a sword to someone's throat and ask them to be gentle, right?
Yeah. It's okay to be heartbroken.
It's okay To have done what you did with the girl?
Because obviously she was using you too.
I mean, this is not... And I'm not saying that's all it was, right?
But it's okay to have this procrastination.
You know? I would say stay away from the drinks myself at the moment because I think you don't want to self-medicate to whatever small degree you're doing at this point.
But I think you want to just try and be a little bit more gentle, a lot more totally gentle with yourself.
Open. Concerned.
And curious, you know?
Like, isn't it interesting that I have no motivation?
I wonder why.
With the knowledge that you have the bedrock of being a good person, who has a lot of knowledge and wisdom under his belt, and that you can explore your procrastination without your career dying, without your soul dying, without your heart exploding or your head bursting into flames.
Give yourself a little space.
Give yourself a little space to be heartbroken, to be sad, to be unmotivated, to be depressed, and to be curious about that.
And know that you will come back and you will do the right thing.
But give yourself... Because everything's an emergency a little bit with you, right?
Like if I have to, right?
There's no space where you could just say, you know, I'm not going to...
Obviously, I have a big problem with procrastination right now.
I'm going to see... Why?
And maybe it'll take me a week, and maybe it'll take me a month, and maybe a whole bunch of shit won't get done in that month.
But I just pissed away a year and a half in a dead-end relationship.
I've got time! Right?
Clearly not being gentle with myself and not having curiosity with myself cost me 18 months in a dead-end relationship.
So if I take a month now to turn that around, that seems like a good investment, doesn't it?
Yeah. To give yourself some breathing room, some space, some non...
Oh, I don't know what the right phrase is.
To dial down the rhetoric, to dial down the imminent disaster scenarios, if that makes sense?
Yeah. But enough of my stirring speeches, such as they are.
What do you think about what I'm saying?
It doesn't... I mean, it makes perfect sense.
I mean... But I still feel like, you know, when I think about, when I look around and I see, you know, dishes not done and things that need to be cleaned up that aren't, and I just, and I think about the stuff that I want to do, I still feel that tension.
Right! Look, I understand that, but we need to work empirically.
You have felt that tension for weeks, if not longer, right?
Right. How's it working?
Not working. So, if it's not working, what do we do?
You've got to change it.
Something else. Anything else.
You can learn to play the bagpipes.
Anything that's different than what's not working is a step in the right direction, right?
Because you're in kind of a bit of a cycle, right?
Where you don't get stuff done, it raises your tension, and then you don't get even more stuff done, which raises your tension, and so it cycles, right?
Right. You can't wake up one day magically wanting to get everything done.
So take a day and stare at the sink and say, what do I feel when I look at that sink and the dishes aren't done?
Feel the panic. Let the panic come up.
Let the anxiety come up.
It's trying to help you.
I know it sounds completely weird and anti-intuitive.
Your anxiety and your fear is trying to help you.
Because if you'd felt more of that anxiety and fear, you wouldn't ever have started dating this woman to begin with, and you'd be a lot further along, right?
Right. So, avoidance of this anxiety and fear did not help you.
Trying to bully yourself now is only, right, is only causing...
More inaction, right?
So do the opposite.
Just sit and stare.
Make a list of everything that needs to get done.
Stare at that list until you freak out.
But don't do anything.
Just feel the feelings that go along with having dishes in the sink.
Because only once you understand why the dishes are really there will you be able to get up and do the dishes.
If you force yourself, you're just denying yourself the knowledge that you need for your future.
Right. Because we anarchists are all about not forcing people to do stuff, right?
Yeah. It's charity, not welfare, right?
Thanks. How can I claim to be an anarchist when I want to rule myself?
Fire your own fascists.
Forget the government.
Fire your own Franco.
Ditch the inner Stalin and the world will become free.
If we don't do that, there's nothing else that matters, right?
Yeah. It makes a lot of sense, but I still am...
Part of it is I'm afraid of opening that door.
Oh, I know. I know.
I know. I know.
It's a terrifying door to open.
And most people will go through their entire lives doing the exact opposite of opening that door, which is inflicting all their suffering on others, right?
Right. But we are made of stronger stuff than that.
We know the fear of And we stare at that door and we imagine all kinds of horrible beasts.
What's scary about it is partly due to my situation.
I'm afraid if I open that door, there's going to be a period of time where I'm just going to be consumed by these feelings and I'm not in a position where I can just quit my job.
You know, if I quit my job, I don't have a visa, I can't live here.
Yeah, that won't happen. Look, I went through three hours of therapy a week and did ten hours of journaling a week while still holding a job down.
Okay. Right?
You are not possessed by insanity.
Your emotions will do exactly the right thing To navigate you through.
They will be, if you let them, if you let them, if you don't fight them, right?
This idea that we're possessed by these emotions that will make us run off cliffs, either literally or metaphorically, is just another scare story.
It's exactly the same as saying, believe in Jesus or you'll go to hell.
Repress your feelings or they will destroy you, right?
Without a government, it's anarchy in the worst pejorative sense, right?
If we let go of this grip of control, the world will cease its orbit, right?
That's what everybody says.
If we let go of control, of forcing people, of coercion, of bullying, the world will fly off into space and we'll all die, right?
But we know that it's not true.
We know that it's not true politically, economically, and we also know that it's not true psychologically.
It is the control and the self-bullying that is causing the emotional distortion, and relaxing the control, relaxing the bullying, and listening to your feelings, scary, it's not always easy, but neither is the free market easy, but we still advocate that, right?
Right. Because it's just and it's fair and it's right and it's incredibly productive, right?
Or you can say, okay, fuck my feelings.
I'm going to keep a rigid control and battle my feelings for the next 60 fucking years.
Like any goddamn Catholic on the planet who is afraid of the devil, right?
It's no different. We might as well be Catholics.
At least we get wine on Sundays.
No, you're right.
And, I mean, if we were at least Catholics, we'd have the community and whatnot.
Yeah, you get free therapy.
All those positive benefits.
You get great songs, you know, you get a cool candlelight at Christmas.
I mean... But if we're going to be atheists, there's no point mimicking the worst aspects of religion when it comes to self-management.
And there's no point saying to people, oh, trust us, society will be better off without a government than going home and berating ourselves and bullying ourselves and controlling ourselves.
And there's no point saying to people, I know that it seems completely scary to have a society without a government, but it'll be great.
And then we go home and do the exact opposite, right?
We say, you, oh people out there, should face your fears of life without a government and accept them and give us the green light, right?
But we won't do that with ourselves.
We won't face our fears of life without coercion and bullying and control.
Our own souls free of coercion.
We say trust the free market, trust the benevolence and the milk of human kindness, but we fear ourselves!
And we are terrified that relaxing control will result in chaos and destruction.
But that's why we never convince other people, right?
Because they don't listen to our words, they listen to our feelings.
They listen to our attitude.
Are we relaxed? Are we not in control of ourselves in the most positive way?
Where we have an ecosystem, we listen, right?
Or are we a centrally planned economy advocating a free market?
Right. And so I'm not saying this has nothing to do with do this so you'll be a more effective advocate for anarchy.
I'm just saying that if you believe this shit, and I think you do, then live it, right?
Yeah, and I want to be an effective advocate.
I mean, it's part of why the only thing I have been doing recently has been my focus on the languages, because I want to start getting this stuff into Japanese so that it can start to spread here, too.
So I do want to do that, but you're right.
I mean, I saw on that skeptics guide post that I made the affectivelessness of my communication about these ideas.
Yeah. Right.
I mean, people understand that I am relatively free with my own emotions, right?
Right. Sometimes, uncomfortably so, for people.
It's like, he shouldn't be doing that if he's sober and has a British accent, right?
Right. But it's because of the freedom with myself that it's not easy.
I mean, look, I really sympathize with this challenge that you face, this door, as you put it.
It's terrifying. It is terrifying.
But it is much less terrifying than what we ask of society, right?
Yeah. And if we can't do it, we don't have any right to ask society to face a much bigger fear, which is life without a government, right?
Because all you're worried about is, you know, well, I might lose my job.
People think life without a government is like war and slaughter and rape, right?
Yeah. Mad Max.
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I think that...
I mean, the reason that I think that...
People find my communications useful is they get at a very deep level that I do not rule myself or bully myself.
Too much sometimes, but not too much, right?
Yeah. They listen to the words because of the emotional content.
Nobody buys my arguments because they're such great arguments.
They buy that I am free and therefore when I talk about freedom...
With sympathy for people who are struggling, because, man, I totally get it.
It's just a terrifying thing.
But I think that it will be so much less scary once you take that first step.
It's just that first step.
After the first step.
After you go into that door and you realize there aren't monsters...
Yeah. And there is light and there is companionship even in there.
But it's just opening that door and going through because it's all marked with, you know, radioactive, dangerous, sludge monsters, biohazards, blah, blah, blah, right?
Right. So, yeah, this is my prescription.
You know, you can use it, you can do something else, whatever you like, right?
Stare at those dishes in the sink and say, why are they there?
And don't take any easy answers.
Think about your history.
Think about your past. What feelings?
Do the dishes in the sink?
Do your indifference, do your procrastination, what feelings does that bring up in you?
Keep exploring those feelings.
Think of similar situations in the past.
What happened when I wanted to procrastinate as a kid?
What am I rebelling against now?
What am I resisting now and how can I accept it rather than fight it?
Okay. That makes a lot of sense.
And then, I guarantee you, you do that, you won't have any problems falling in love with the right woman.
When you don't control yourself, you lose the desire to control other people.
Right.
To manage other people.
And so they have room to breathe, you have room to breathe, and love can flourish.
Right.
How was this for you?
We covered a lot of ground, to say the least, but we didn't really get into your family, but how was the combo for you?
Was it useful? Yeah, it was.
It was very useful. It's usually given me a lot of new ways of thinking about things that I hadn't thought about before.
You know, I always thought that procrastination was just this thing you have to be afraid of and not, you know, something you can't...
that can't bring any good, but...
Thinking about it and not that it's necessarily a good thing, but just the fact that it's something that I can sit with and learn a lot about myself from it is something I never thought about before and I think it's going to be really valuable to see what comes out of that.
Right, and your parents are right insofar as I can guarantee you that what you will learn about exploring your procrastination is some ugly truths about your family.
It's things that your parents don't want you to know.
That's why they say procrastination is just bad and you should do X, Y, and Z and bully, blah, blah, blah.
Because if you explore procrastination and your emotional relationship to it, things that are not flattering to them will come out for sure.
Ways in which you were taught and coached and instructed and so on.
And a lot of sophisticated maneuvering on the part of your parents psychologically will become clear to you.
So in a sense they are saying there's nothing good in it, but they forget to add for us, right?
Right, right.
Or not. They obviously don't add, right?
Yeah. No, that makes sense.
Well, I will send you a copy of this.
Obviously, I think...
Sorry, what do you think?
Sorry, one more time? Sure.
I will send you a copy of this, of course.
I'll post it on the reply to the chat on the board.
Obviously, I think it would be hugely helpful for other people.
We haven't mentioned any names, but do have a listen and let me know what you think and let me know.
Yeah, as far as putting it out, I won't have a chance to listen to it until probably tomorrow.
But yeah, go ahead and put it out.
I'm fine with that. Okay, well thanks.
It's the least I can do. Oh, listen, you've been wonderfully generous.
I hugely, I mean... You have supported the site both, you know, in terms of your presence, your posting, the work you've done, the donations.
I mean, you only have to ask, and anything I can do to help, I am happy to do.
I really appreciate it.
Hey, what's happening, brother?
I don't know.
When did you feel the emotion come up?
Just as you were saying that.
Was it the part where I was acknowledging your kindness and generosity and support, or was it when I offered more support for myself?
Both.
Right.
Both.
Yeah, it is amazing how...
How perpetually hungry we always are, right?
And we don't even really notice it until we get food, right?
Yeah.
So, I mean, this tells me a lot, and this is, again, more to examine with sensitivity and curiosity within yourself, you know, just how little appreciation you've gotten for some of the, I mean, obviously, I think you're a very generous and kind person, but how little acknowledgement it sounds like you've gotten for that in your but how little acknowledgement it sounds like you've gotten for that Yeah.
Yeah.
And, of course, how little offers of help, right?
Thank you.
Thank you.
Well, yeah. Every offer of help was a Sorry, was you?
No, every offer of help was another way to try and control me.
Right, right. Okay, so when I talk about relinquishing self-control and being a sort of free market ecosystem and then offer to help, then obviously it's not about controlling you and so that breaks a pattern for you and that probably had something to do with why you felt a sudden rush of feeling that way.
Do you want to talk more about this?
If you want to sit with your feelings, that's totally fine with me.
Do you want to talk more about the feelings that you're feeling or do you want to take some time?
What is your pleasure? No, I think I'm going to take some time with this.
I'm just going to sit with you. Okay, magnificent work tonight, today for you, I guess.
I don't know, what is it? Like December where you are?
Some crazy... Yeah.
Fantastic work. I just hugely admire the work that you're doing.
This is tough stuff. And, you know, the work you did on this call was, you know, really focused and really great.
So good job for what it's worth.
I appreciate that. Alright, man.
I'll talk to you soon. Alright, thanks.
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