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June 19, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:36:11

1091 Money, Debt and Freedom (Listener Conference)

Listeners talk about the mean, mean green.

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	So this is a call about money issues and how best to seduce your currency.
	I suggest using francs, but we'll get into that in a sec.
	So if you're not talking, if you could mute, this is with Rich in particular.
	So we're going to talk with him for a bit, and then if other people want to add, in, feel free.
	So Rich, are you there? Yep, I'm here.
	All right, spill, brother. Alright, so I have this huge amount of anxiety surrounding debt.
	I've had it, you know, as long as I can remember, but I've never actually been in debt until recently.
	And so now actually being in debt, it's like my mind constantly goes back to that when I'm in a stressful situation.
	I start to think about how much credit card debt I'm in now and how I'm ever going to pay it all off.
	And you do not want to talk about the amount?
	I don't mind if you do or don't, but it may be helpful.
	Yeah, that's fine. I'm in about...
	Just under seven grand right now.
	And just for the listeners who are wondering about how best to plan yourself financially, only about 6.8 of that is FDR donations.
	So my major concern is the remaining $200 and why they didn't come my way, just so everybody knows what the content of the call is about.
	So, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, so, you know, that plus interest is...
	Kind of freaking me out. What is your interest on that a month?
	Oh, well, that's spread across three different credit cards, but on average it's 12% to 13%.
	Right.
	Okay. Okay.
	Got it. Got it. Got it.
	So $150, $200 a month in interest and the rest, you know, you pay the principal if you can, something like that.
	Yeah, I've been trying to pay the interest and the minimum payment every month.
	Right, right, which takes about infinity to pay off, if I remember rightly.
	I'm sorry, say that again? It takes about infinity to pay it off using that strategy.
	Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	But I just got my new job, so now I've got a higher income and I should be able to pay it down.
	I've estimated it around a year or maybe a little more than a year.
	Right, right. Okay.
	And how did you – well, let's deal with some of the practicalities and then we'll look at some root causes.
	How did you get into the debt?
	Well, I just kind of – well, I was running my own business.
	I was running it by the seat of my pants and I just – Kept going and going, thinking that, you know, thinking I'm in the positive.
	Well, I was. I mean, I was in the black until, like, tax season hit.
	And then suddenly I was like, oh, yeah, I've got this expense to pay.
	Right, that government thing, the fight.
	Yes. Right, right.
	And so that put me in the hole to start with.
	And then business dropped off.
	And then my motivation dropped off.
	And you kind of know that whole story because we had that podcast about my, you know, my motivation.
	My motivation level's going to zero.
	Yes, yes, I remember.
	And then things... Sorry, you paid some business expense through credit cards, is that right?
	Oh, just about every expense.
	I mean, yeah, business and living.
	Okay, got it. So it wasn't that you still had enough money to live, but your business needed money.
	What happened was your business wasn't generating enough money for you to live, and it had additional expenses, and you covered those with credit cards, right?
	Right, correct. Okay, got it.
	Got it. Okay, so, but you say that you have a dread with regards to debt from early in your life, right?
	Yeah, yeah, for sure.
	I mean, when I got my first credit card, you know, my parents would tell me all sorts of stories about getting into debt and how it's a never-ending cycle and you'll never get out and Don't ever go into debt.
	Always pay your credit cards off completely.
	So when this scenario came around where suddenly I couldn't pay my credit cards down completely, I started to get pretty panicked.
	Well, but you said you felt fear about debt early on, right?
	Oh, yeah, yeah. Before, yeah, I'd always feel fear and I'd always, you know, my credit card statements would come and I'm like, I'd look at how much money I had and I'd always be able to pay it down, but it always kind of shocked me every time I got my statement.
	Oh, yeah. You look at that number and there's that stab in the center.
	It's like, I spent what?
	Really? Right, yeah.
	Now, with your parents, when they talked to you about debt, though...
	Sorry, if you're not talking, if you could just mute whoever's typing.
	When your parents would talk to you about debt...
	Help me understand how you ended up with a fear of debt.
	Because, I mean, if you're...
	You know, it's like teaching your kids about sex and sexuality.
	Like, you can either say, you know, here's how to be responsible and here's how to protect your body and your heart and so on.
	Or you can say...
	You know, if you touch yourself, you'll get hairy palms and Jesus will eat an angel or something like that, right?
	And the guilt and the hell and so on.
	It sounds to me like when it came to financial planning, your parents were a little bit more along the fear side of things.
	Is that right? Yeah, yeah.
	And, you know, they talk about people who are in debt as being...
	Bad people and...
	Deadbeats. Deadbeats, oh yeah, yeah.
	I mean, half their extended family was in debt, so they always talked about, you know, uncles and how you never want to be one of them.
	And... They also used...
	They used money against me.
	They had me pay a certain amount into a savings account.
	Basically, I had to if I wanted to live at my house through college.
	They had me pay a certain amount into a quote-unquote savings account.
	And then they'd use that against me if I started to act out.
	I'm using their language here, but when I started to disagree with their rules and their morals, They would take money out of that account.
	They would take money out of your account?
	What does that mean? Well, they'd say, well, we're not paying for college this semester, so we're taking that out to pay for this semester of college or whatever, you know?
	But it would be related to misbehavior on your part, is that right?
	Yeah, yeah, exactly. They'd always call it, like, if you'd It's our house, our rules, and if you go against them, then that money becomes ours.
	Right. So basically, it's sort of like when you post bond or post bail for committing a crime, if you don't come back for your trial date, they get to keep your money.
	So it's like you were posting bail or posting bond for your freedom, is that right?
	Or for your obedience. Right.
	Yeah, I never thought of it that way, but that's certainly accurate.
	I mean, that's how the status system works, right?
	Right. They hold your money hostage, and if you obey, you get the money back, right?
	Mm-hmm. Okay, okay.
	And basically, they forced you to pay into this system, right?
	Well, yeah. I mean, I don't want to say forced, because I could have always gone out and got my own job and gotten out of the house.
	But, yeah, they said, for us to keep paying for college and for you to live here, you have to pay this amount of money every month.
	And it would go up from time to time.
	They had kind of a set amount, I think a couple hundred dollars a month, but sometimes that price would go up depending on my behavior.
	Right. Now, why do you think they didn't just charge you rent?
	Well, sometimes they justify it as that.
	They're like, well, think of this as rent, and you'll get it back if everything goes well by the end of college.
	Well, then it's not rent, is it?
	Otherwise, people will get a bunch of money, right?
	Right, right. But it's interesting, right?
	Because, I mean, personally, I think that, I mean, when you were going into college, you were sort of your late teens, your early 20s.
	Is that right? That's right.
	Yeah, I mean, in my humble opinion, I don't think it's particularly unreasonable to ask for a bit of money from somebody entering their second decade to sort of help pay for upkeep.
	I mean, depending on the parents' financial situation and so on.
	But I guess the question I have is, why wasn't it just rent?
	And I think I both know the answer to that.
	Yeah, it was to control me.
	Yeah, because if it's rent, then they can't dangle anything over you, right?
	Right. So they sort of force you to pay in a system, in a way, and again, force is, you know, it's a double-edged sword, but if they'd said it's 500 bucks a month of rent, right, then what would have happened is you would have weighed the pros and cons, right?
	You'd have said, okay, well, staying at home is going to cost me 500 bucks a month, and maybe moving out is going to cost me $1,500 a month, so the difference is a grand, which is, you know, X amount of work.
	Like, you could have made a rational calculation about staying at home, right?
	Oh, yeah. If they had said $500, I would have gone, oh, I'm getting a roommate.
	I'm out of here. Right, right.
	I mean, I was able to live, like, when I was in college, like, 700-800 bucks a month.
	I had a place for 275 bucks a month, and, you know, food and, you know, bike grease, that was about all I needed.
	Yeah, yeah. So, if they charged you rent, then you would have been able to make a rational economic calculation, right?
	Yeah, yeah, for sure.
	But they didn't charge rent.
	They kind of gave you this soft, gooey kind of, it's there, and maybe it'll come back, and maybe it won't, depending on how you behave and so on, right?
	And it was also a decent chunk of money because we'd been putting into that savings account since we were pretty young, right?
	Like, they had us, you know, recycle cans and put the money from recycled cans into it.
	So, you know, I'd grown to a decent sum, so it was quite a big carrot over my head.
	And why wouldn't you have access to this money?
	It was their savings account.
	Oh, so it wasn't even your savings?
	They basically just taxed you?
	Wait, say that again? So, it wasn't like you didn't even have signing authority on this account.
	Basically, it was like tax.
	It just went to the internal parent service or something, right?
	Right, yeah. Right, okay.
	And then this they held over you in terms of power, of authority, of, hey, you know, if you don't listen to what we're going to say, your money's going to mysteriously vanish, right?
	Yes, yes. And what happened to this money in the long run?
	Long run, half of it ended up going to paying for a couple semesters where I, you know, disobeyed them, and then the other half I got when I moved out, when I graduated and moved out.
	Right, okay. So, I mean, because then it's kind of the worst of both worlds, because you didn't get all the money that you'd saved.
	You also didn't get the independence of living away from home during college?
	Yeah, I didn't move out until I was 22.
	Right, right. Okay, okay.
	Now, it's pretty fascinating that your parents talk about not getting into the trap of being in debt, right?
	If you end up in debt, people will have control over you, right?
	Oh, right.
	Do you see the connection there?
	Yes, I do. Like, boy, those credit card companies, man, they'll just rip you off and control you and you'll end up working for them.
	Now, you better obey us or we're going to take your money away.
	I mean, it's total projection, right?
	Yeah, it is. Okay.
	And that's why it had a kind of...
	I get a sense of a kind of horror when you talk about debt.
	Absolutely. I mean, it is horrifying to me.
	It's just...
	It makes it hard to think about anything else during the day.
	Oh, sure, because there's this constant feeling of clammy dread, right?
	Like, what if I don't work out in this new job, and what if, you know, what if, what if, what if, what if, right?
	Yeah, exactly. Nice, okay.
	And... Oh, I'm sorry, I'm just...
	Yeah, every time I drive, every time I go eat somewhere, you know, everything costs money, so it's like every time that happens, it's just cha-ching, cha-ching, adding up.
	Right, right, okay.
	And what percentage of your daily thoughts would you say center back?
	We all have these gravity wells in our mind, and they change depending on our circumstances and what's going on.
	But these gravity wells are like...
	This is where my thoughts are returning to at the moment, right?
	And so, is this the primary sort of gravity well for your mind at the moment?
	Is this the black hole? Yes.
	And what percentage of your time during the day would you say, your waking time, when you're not concentrating, when your mind is free, right?
	Like when you're not concentrating on a particular task, what percentage of your time would you say, your mental time, that is free, Is taken up by this topic or thought for you?
	I'd say 60% or more.
	Okay, and look, I mean, this is all perfectly, to me, perfectly natural and perfectly normal in terms of sort of where you've come from and so on, right?
	This fear that... People will control you through money, right?
	That is a fear, of course, of all of us, and it's one of the reasons why the state is such a bad thing to have around.
	But this is returning to you, and is it that you are concerned about getting into more debt, or are you concerned about not being able to pay off the debt that you have?
	Well, there's definitely concern of more debt, because Colleen is going to be taking loans.
	I'm sorry, could you just repeat that?
	Colleen is going to be taking on student loans, and so there is going to be more debt.
	Yes, okay. And is she around?
	Yep, she's right here. Okay, good.
	Hi. Hi, hi, hi, hi, hi.
	How's it going? Oh, she doesn't have a headset on.
	Oh, there's an open mic here.
	Oh, okay. How's it going?
	Fine. I'm sorry that we couldn't get the webcam going.
	Let's see the new place, but...
	See what you've done with it, whether you've gone with a Louis XIV or a Louis XVI theme as we were talking about?
	Oh, we're going minimalistic since we couldn't bring anything with us here.
	Ah, Louis the minus one, yes.
	Okay, and Colleen, what is your sort of history or thoughts or experience around debt?
	Well, let's see.
	My... I know that just from the story from my parents that my dad started off in terrible, terrible credit card debt.
	And when he met my mom, she helped him sort through all that.
	And they became very wealthy throughout my life.
	And whenever they told me about financial management, they gave me all sorts of Books to read and stuff like that.
	But there still was this fear that they sort of had around credit card debt.
	When I wanted to get my own credit card because of this personal finance class I took and they said start establishing your credit, they didn't want me to do that at all.
	They were terrified that I was just going to have absolutely no spending control.
	Sorry, they said they were going to have no...
	I was not going to have any control.
	Just like how my dad had done and just spent on it.
	I was like, well, no, I understand the principles, but they still were really scared that I was going to screw that up.
	But managing my finances right now, I don't have this paranoia around it.
	I don't know if I'm too lax or anything, but I just sort of know that, you know, I'm comfortable with the, you know, sort of financial, you know, one-year projections that Rich showed me that, you know, we're going to be paying down our debt in this amount of time, you know, we're going to be paying down our debt in this amount And I'm just comfortable with that.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Now, you said you don't have this paranoia about it.
	Is that, in your mind, how you view riches?
	60%? Yeah.
	We might as well be up front, right?
	Because, I mean, 60% is not a small amount, right?
	Right, right. Okay.
	So, Rich, the likelihood of the scenario that you can't pay off your own debt, what likelihood would you consider that to be in percentage terms?
	Oh, I mean, very, very small.
	I mean, it would have to be pretty disastrous, like losing my job and not being able to find another one.
	I'm sure I'll be able to pay it off and In two years at the very most, and less than that if my projections are right.
	Right. So, I mean, you're not facing, even if your job thing doesn't work out, and I'm sure that it will, you are not facing any kind of imminent catastrophe, right?
	Oh, no. No, everything's actually going great.
	And in many ways, I would invite you to alter the way that you look at this credit card debt And so I'm going to just give you a way of looking at it that might give you some relief, however temporary it might be.
	That would be beautiful.
	Now, do you think that you would have been able to get this great job, not just without my expert coaching, but without your entrepreneurial experience?
	Oh, absolutely not.
	Okay. So, you basically got $7,000 in debt to go to school.
	And that school is called being an entrepreneur, right?
	Which contains lessons you'll never get in business school.
	Wow, yeah. That's an instant smile on my face there.
	Yeah, so I mean, you got a significant pay hike when you went to your new job, which you wouldn't have gotten unless you'd gotten $7,000 in debt.
	Now, if somebody had said to you six months ago, or six months ago, they'd have said, listen, I can get you a significant raise in your salary, but you're going to have to invest some time and $7,000 one time in terms of going to school for six months, and then you will reap the rewards of that for the rest of your life and your career.
	Absolutely. I mean, I would have done that in a second.
	Yeah, I mean, I'm guessing, and you don't have to get into any figures here, but I'm guessing that that $7,000 in terms of the pay increases that you've had is probably not more than a couple of months of extra income, right?
	Right, right, right, right.
	Yeah, yeah. Right, so basically you invested six months and went into debt for $7,000 in order to get an education that got you a job that will have you pay off that in six months and will continue to accrue to you for the rest of your professional career over the next 40 odd years, right? Yeah, you're absolutely right.
	I mean, who wouldn't say, man, I'd love to get my MBA paid off completely six months after I graduate?
	Right. And again, I'm not saying that you can pay it off in six months, but in terms of the salary difference that you got between your old job and your new job, I mean, along with the job satisfaction and mentoring and all the other good stuff that goes with it, isn't it just an investment in your education that has got a six-month ROI? Absolutely.
	And I understand all this, you know, financially, I mean, I didn't do this before, obviously, but financially I can understand that, as far as ROI and investments, but when it comes to that scary thought of credit card debt, suddenly my mind shuts down.
	Well, sure, but if you had to finish an MBA and you had to put $7,000 on your credit cards to do it, are you going to say that you'd bomb out of your MBA? Oh, no, no.
	It doesn't matter if it's credit card debt or not.
	All that credit card debt is, is debt that takes a little longer to pay off, or a lot longer.
	It doesn't really matter, right?
	Right. But you still got the kind of...
	Education that gets you into a new level in your career.
	You basically saved yourself at least, at least a couple of years in a cubicle to get to this new job from where you were, right?
	Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're 23?
	24? 26.
	26, sorry. So you're 26 and you're a project manager in a pretty fast-paced company, right?
	Yeah, fast-paced and growing company.
	Fast-paced and growing, and you didn't have to spend a year doing an MBA or two, and you didn't have to spend a couple of extra years in the trenches to grow your way into that position.
	Yeah. I got to spend a couple of years actually having fun messing around with my own business.
	Right, which is going to teach you stuff that you...
	And really, you got paid for most of the time you were in school.
	You just got in debt at the end, right?
	Right, right. I mean, that's a degree that everybody would be happy for.
	I mean, to come out of college, in a sense, with $7,000 in debt and having been paid for a good chunk of it?
	Yeah. So, it's just a way of looking at it that...
	Because we so often figure out the costs and they hit us in our hearts so hard, right?
	But it's... It's a really important picture of benefits as well, right?
	That, yeah, it's a $7,000 hit that got you a job that pays you twice that extra every year.
	And every time you get a significant bump in salary, because a lot of people will go from, you know, they'll get a 4%, 6%, 7% raise in salary.
	You've got a big jump here, and what that means is Is that from now on, your salary continues to go up from here, but you've taken a big leap upwards, which otherwise could have taken you quite a number of years to achieve, right?
	It sure could have, yeah. And this all for $7,000?
	I mean, if you put $7,000 in the stock market, and you've got the kind of returns you get on your salary, even if you had to buy those stocks on credit cards, wouldn't you be pretty happy?
	Definitely, yeah, yeah. Yeah, sorry, I put the server to sleep with one of my when I was young stories.
	Ah, you kids! Get off my lawn!
	I don't think we heard that story.
	Yeah, no, I think that may be for the best.
	I was just saying that when I was in school, I was so broke that when I finally got a check, I was going to deposit it the next day, and I was going to the bank to take out some money, and it ate my card because I was so overdrawn and maxed out on my cards and all that kind of stuff.
	And it was...
	It was expensive, and I spent a lot of time and so on in school, but what it did was it vaulted me past.
	It was just an investment, right?
	It vaulted me past a whole bunch of middle management positions so I could be CEO and ruin the company from the top, which is much more satisfying.
	Yeah. Yeah, so there's nothing eerie or weird about credit cards or nothing particularly dangerous.
	It certainly is true that some people abuse them, but that's not the fault of credit cards, right?
	So there's nothing weird about, you know, being in debt for $7,000 to credit companies is not particularly worse than being in debt $14,000 for a car, right?
	If you need the car to drive to work, then you are going to spend the money on the car, right?
	In order to get the increased income that you will get from your job and because you enjoy taking a slow pee into Gaia's face.
	But it doesn't matter, right?
	I mean, if you go into debt to buy a car so you can get to a job which pays you more, that's just an economic calculation.
	So does that make any sense?
	If you owed $14,000 on a car, it wouldn't freak you out so much, right?
	Yeah, and I do owe about $4,000 or $5,000 on my own.
	I never think about that for some reason.
	Well, that's because you've been, you know, the credit cards are evil and credit card debt is bad and so on.
	But it doesn't, I mean, there's no difference between the two where it's just one is a way to get to work and the other is having something valuable to bring to work, right?
	It doesn't make any difference, right?
	Right, right. It's just the same thing, right?
	In fact, you probably got a lot better return on your seven grand than you did on your car, right?
	Oh yeah, for sure. Because a car is losing value, but your education, what you learned as an entrepreneur, is going to stay with you and enhance your income forever, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	So you should worry about the car more than you should worry about the credit card debt, in my opinion.
	Well, I definitely like the way you look at things, Stephanie.
	It's a much more optimistic view than I have most of the time.
	Well, there's no need to insult me because, I mean, I'm not trying to say – I'm not trying to be optimistic.
	Like, I'm actually – I mean, if you just said, you know, hookers and blow, right, then I wouldn't say, well, there's an education for you, right?
	It's like now you've got to pay for syphilis and, you know, I don't know, nose reconstruction surgery.
	But just because I know the history that you had professionally and I knew about the transition to this new job, I'm not trying to give you a, you know, like – Yes, you know, your mother is dead, but there's coins on her eyes we can steal, right?
	Like, I'm not sort of saying that.
	What I am saying is that this was an investment in an education for you.
	And also what it has done is it has, at least for the time being, given you some peace about being an entrepreneur, right?
	Because if you hadn't written your business, in a sense, into the ground, then you might not have closure with it, right?
	Oh, absolutely. I mean, I could have made it linger on a lot longer, and I think I would have if I hadn't have had that chat with you.
	Yeah, no, I think that's possible as well.
	But the fact that, I mean, you don't leave that saying, man, I could have been the next Bill Gates, and now all I get to be is a senior project manager, right?
	Oh, no, no. I'm glad to be done with that.
	Right, so you wouldn't necessarily...
	You don't feel bitter.
	You've got closure. You can approach this new job with a clear mind without regrets.
	You know, you had the business.
	You worked in the business.
	You got the education, which got you a great job.
	You may go back into being an entrepreneur, but at least you won't sit there with the what if and if only and if I'd stuck it out and, you know, you were done with it.
	It's closed. I mean, all of that stuff, you don't notice how great it is because it's not in your mind, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, yeah. So it's not, I mean, it's not just optimistic.
	It is, I think, a realistic assessment that if you would have taken on this debt voluntarily in order to gain the salary that you got, and I don't see any way that you could have gotten this salary without that experience, if it's something you would have taken on voluntarily and happily, right, then I don't think that it's just optimistic to say that, you know, you're worrying about something that you would have happily taken on to get the benefits.
	Yeah, yeah. And I'm sorry to change the subject here.
	I'm just feeling a little nervous because earlier you said, no need to insult me, and I just wanted to clarify.
	No, I'm sorry.
	I knew that that was – it's hard to say without the facial expression.
	It's not – that's not your issue, and I apologize.
	I didn't mean to. You bastard, rat bastard calling me an optimist.
	Sorry. I just – Greg had his hand up my ass, and I felt that the – No, all I meant was that when I get called an optimist, my particular response, and I wasn't very serious with you, but my response is like, that's not a realistic assessment, if that makes sense. And what's a more realistic assessment?
	Well, I think it is a realistic assessment to look at this.
	I'm not just saying this is a bad situation, but we can wrench our perspective to make it slightly better.
	Which would be sort of, like, let's take the optimistic view that everything's going to work out despite all indications to the contrary.
	So, I'm trying to think.
	So this is more like, what did you say earlier to me, Colleen?
	You said something about the benefit.
	Seeing the benefit. The hidden benefits.
	Is that more accurate? Yeah, I mean, I think it's not just optimistic to say that this is a better way of looking at it.
	I mean, I think that this is accurate.
	This is an accurate way of looking at it, that you invested in an education which is paying off very handsomely.
	Yeah, yeah. If that makes sense.
	Because for me, you know, it's like if you and I are stuck in the hold of the Titanic and water is, you know, coming up around our necks and I'm like, we're going to be fine.
	That to me would be a little optimistic, you know, given the situation.
	I see. I'm sorry.
	I meant that really more as a joke than anything, but I find the terms in general, optimism and pessimism, to be not particularly useful.
	And for me, the way it always comes across is that there's a realistic way to look at something, and then there's the optimistic way, which is everything's going to be fine, even if we are falling out of a plane without a parachute.
	I'm sure an updraft will catch us or something.
	And then there's the pessimistic view, which is just putting a negative slant on neutral information.
	I always do try and aim for the neutral information.
	And again, my history with these words would mean nothing to you, so I'm glad you brought it up.
	And I certainly didn't mean that you were actually insulting me, so I hope that makes some sense.
	Oh, okay. Well, alright, alright.
	So, you realize that you're paying a very heavy tax at the moment, right?
	Yes. And it is, to some degree, although I know not fully, to some degree it is a voluntary tax, right?
	Yes. Yes, of course it is.
	I could be living in the slums and have a lower pay job.
	Sorry, that's not what I mean. What tax are you referring to?
	Oh, okay.
	We're talking about... I'm sorry.
	What tax are we referring to?
	Well, it's the 60%.
	Oh, the 60% debt.
	Okay, I'm thinking money again.
	I'm sorry. See, you're even paying the tax while I'm talking about the tax.
	No, I'm kidding. Yeah, that's a huge emotional tax.
	It's not just a huge emotional tax.
	It's a huge tax on your life.
	If 60% of your waking thoughts that are optional to you are spent dwelling on this disaster scenario that's highly unlikely to occur, right?
	That's a very heavy tax on your life.
	Yes. Right?
	It's almost like having that thing where you can't leave the house without washing your hands 50 times?
	Yeah, it definitely feels obsessive.
	Right, right, right.
	Okay. And in my experience, you need massive amounts of medication.
	Talk to Ali. No. In my experience...
	It's called bourbon. But in my experience, the reason that we get repetitive thoughts of disaster tends to be because there is a risk in our life, which is not the one we're thinking of, but it's more threatening to think of the other risk.
	Boy, that was a convoluted way of putting it.
	That's interesting that you say that, because the very...
	When I first started to experience all of this anxiety about two or three months ago about debt, I had a few dreams and then I woke up one day and wrote down, I realized that all of this worry about debt doesn't really have to do with money.
	It has to do with the emotional debt in my relationship with Colleen.
	Sorry, say a little bit more about that?
	I was just, I was like journaling and I had some dreams and I just had this, I had this thought, I don't know where it came from, but it seemed to strike true that it was an emotional debt in my relationship and not having anything to really do with my finances.
	Right, right, right.
	And you feel that it's an emotional debt that you owe to Colleen?
	Right, because she's, I mean...
	She listens to me and my problems and she's very curious and patient and empathetic and she always initiates that kind of thing and I definitely don't do that as much as she does in our relationship.
	I don't do that with her as much and so there's an imbalance.
	Right. Okay.
	And do you feel that you owe emotional sustenance to Colleen in the way that is metaphorized for you by these owing money to the credit card companies?
	Yeah. Colleen, what is the level of interest that you're charging on this emotional debt?
	Because she's an objectivist, which means that financially, she'll just shaft you any chance you get.
	I mean, you ever tried to join one of their seminars?
	It's like, phew, bend over, anarchist.
	But anyway, sorry. And have you talked about this with Colleen?
	Is this news to you?
	Yeah, we've talked about it, but we talked about it for a few days after that.
	And then I just kind of let things go slack again and then start worrying about debt again.
	Yeah, I just keep making the same mistakes.
	I keep not putting in the effort that I want to in my curiosity.
	And is that your experience as well, Colleen?
	Well, I certainly don't feel like he owes me something, but when he's really preoccupied with the finances and things like that, he can't really be there for me as much.
	Right, right, right.
	Do you feel that there's an imbalance in the level of emotional investment that you have in each other's life problems or challenges and so on?
	I would say so.
	Is it an open topic that you guys continue working on or is it surfacing like a whale and then going back down again?
	It's definitely surfaced a lot since the chat we had with you.
	I've been I've been trying to put more effort into helping Colleen find a job and helping her figure out what she wants to do.
	And you've been doing really well with that.
	But I'm wondering if that's what's triggering this recent uprise in stress levels with debt, especially now that I'm working and actually able to pay off this debt.
	So you think when you started putting more effort into that, then your worries increased?
	So it was like, then the thoughts about finances increased?
	Right, right. Definitely lately the thoughts about my debt has increased.
	And did you find that your thoughts around your debt decreased when you were talking more to Colleen?
	Yeah, I mean, well, it's a mixed bag.
	Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
	I'm sorry, Mick's bag was not in the list of responses.
	I'm going to go over the... Yes, Steph, you're absolutely right.
	Sorry, that is the only response.
	It's all circumstantial because sometimes, you know, if we're out buying something, then suddenly, like, if I'm focusing on her and then we make a purchase and then suddenly my thoughts fly back to my debt.
	But then if we're at home and we're, you know...
	In the bedroom, we're both on the laptop looking for jobs for her, then I'm not thinking about that at all.
	So, it's kind of circumstantial.
	Right, right. Okay.
	Got it. And now, I have some thoughts about that, but there were some people on the call who had questions if they wanted to come up about that, and we'll come back to that stuff in a sec.
	Sure. I had a question, actually, about a comment that I made.
	I reached the money line.
	Sorry, go on. Okay.
	So, Rich posted something about this on his blog, and I mentioned some of the things that...
	Rich and I had a similar upbringing, at least in terms of parents who...
	At least my grandparents told me, you know, all debt is evil.
	You pay everything in cash.
	I mean, they bought their house in cash.
	So... And one of the things that I notice I'll do is I spend money like water on things that I don't need.
	Like I will go out and blow 50 bucks happily on books.
	But if I go to spend the same amount of money on something I actually need, like medicine, for instance, I won't buy it because I'll tell myself, oh, I don't have any money.
	And then the next day I'll be back in the bookstore again.
	So I don't buy...
	What I do need and I do buy what I don't need when I have very little money.
	And Rich mentioned that this was something that was coming up for him, something that he does as well.
	And I was wondering if you had any ideas about that.
	Well, I mean, the first question that I would have is what kind of financial behavior did you see modeled on the part of your parents?
	I mean, were they, you know, we buy groceries and then we buy opera tickets?
	Or was it, you know, we'll buy opera tickets and the groceries will take care of themselves?
	My grandparents were very, very, very careful.
	I mean, they never bought...
	Anything at all besides groceries.
	Mother spends it like water, morning, noon, and night.
	If she got a penny, she would immediately blow it.
	She was in massive amounts of debt all through my childhood.
	I mean, she's still in debt for dinners that she dragged me out to when I was five years old.
	Wow. Wow.
	Okay. So, I mean, you have two completely insane views of money, which, I mean, that's what you've inherited.
	That's the modeling that you've had, right?
	The idea that any debt is evil, which is completely silly, right?
	I mean, there are no companies without debt.
	So, if debt is evil, then nobody should have a job and we should all be eating our toenails and rabbits.
	So, the idea that debt is bad, It's ridiculous.
	And the idea that, you know, spend like crazy and hope for the best is also ridiculous, right?
	And there's no virtue in saving to pay cash for things at all.
	At all. I mean, that's a very medieval view of money, right?
	That usury is evil and so on.
	And it also goes back, of course, to...
	Two times where you would be enslaved through debt, right?
	This is the mafia thing, right?
	Like, you know, the loan shark will lend you money at 20% interest a week and then you end up having to become his hitman for three years until you finally kill yourself, right?
	Or there's this thing where the evil statist landowners will give you money and then it turns out that you have to buy all this expensive equipment from them and you can't buy it from anywhere else and you end up going from a free person to a kind of sharecropper to a slave.
	And there is this sort of stuff in history.
	It's pretty far back, but it can have some echoes up to a couple of generations ago, your grandparents.
	So there is that sense that the only way to retain freedom – and of course it's also just not educated, right?
	Economics is much more widely understood now and going into debt in the old sort of anal Protestant work ethic, going into debt was just lazy and it was frivolous and it was unthinking and it was spendthrifty and it would put your family in burden.
	It was like, it was the equivalent of being an alcoholic or something.
	And debt is just like anything else, right?
	Debt is like an aspirin, right?
	I mean, you don't have to suffer through a headache, but that doesn't mean you should have 12 aspirin a day.
	Sorry, go ahead. Well, I wanted to say that something concrete that I think contributed to my grandmother's abject fear of debt is, I mean, she grew up during the Depression, obviously, and she was at Cornell on a scholarship, and when her money ran out and when her family's money ran out, she had to quit school to go home, and she never got to go back to college.
	So, you know, being in debt and not having any money, that's just that I think was her worst fear imaginable.
	Well, I certainly do understand that people's families are full of this kind of nonsense where it's like, well, he was in the Depression and that's why he's this way.
	And that's just – none of it is true.
	None of it is true.
	We all have influences in our life and it's not like your generation and my generation, the first generation to introduce introspection and realizing that the present is different from the past – But families make up these excuses for people.
	He's this way because.
	She's this way because.
	Well, he grew up in the Depression.
	Well, she was in the war. Well, her father was a drinker and so she's just terrified of alcohol.
	His mother, she used to take pills, so he doesn't like any kind of medication.
	People just make up these excuses rather than sit down with people and say...
	You know, times are changing, right?
	Things are changing. And you don't need to drag all of your own history into the present and use it as chains to clank down everyone else.
	And I say this not because you believe all of this stuff, but just because this is the endless propaganda that we always get about the family.
	Oh, he's just this way because...
	And it's like, no, he's not.
	He's this way because you're saying it's okay for him to be this way.
	And no one's confronting him, if that makes any sense.
	Right. Yeah, and that always was the The excuse in the family, you know, I would ask Mother, okay, look, I was 12, and I basically took over paying the bills.
	I was like, okay, Mother, look, we need to pay this bill.
	Why are you spending so much money?
	And she would always say, oh, well, you were brought up by your grandparents.
	They were in the Depression.
	That's why they're so careful.
	We can spend money.
	So she would use it as both, you know, excusing them and excusing herself at the same time.
	Yeah, I mean, this is just a by-the-by, because, you know, FDR, we blame everything on the parents and so on.
	It's actually the complete opposite of the truth, that when people complain to me about their parents, and you heard me talking about this with Ash on a Sunday show or two ago, the Ash with an E, And I don't blame everything on the parents at all.
	In fact, what I say to people is stop complaining about your parents and stop blaming your parents and make a decision, right?
	Go talk to them, figure this stuff out and figure out whether it's going to work or not.
	And one of the root signs of dysfunctional families is inflexibility, right?
	I mean, it is when, well, so-and-so is just this way, and we just dance around it.
	There's no flexibility in the relationship.
	It's just rigid, you know?
	And it's scary, and there's all these landmines because everyone's so rigid.
	And in order to keep that going, you have to invent a whole bunch of mythology around why people are the way they are.
	And then, of course, what always happens is everyone around the child is allowed to be who they are because of X, Y, and Z. But God forbid that the child ever says, well, I am this way because of X, Y, and Z, right? Right.
	I mean, everybody gets their own specific role, and they get the freedom to act as they want to act, except, you know, the only person who might break out of the family structure, who hasn't been suitably indoctrinated yet, I suppose, is the only one who doesn't get, like, any choice, any say in the matter.
	Well, it's like, you know, your parents are like this because of this and your grandparents are like this because of this.
	But if you ever go up to your parents and you say, well, you know, I don't know, let's say you were out two hours past curfew and you say, well, I'm like this because I was raised in a really restrictive environment.
	Are they going to say, oh, okay, well, that's fine then because you have an excuse or an explanation?
	Right. I mean, that's the last thing that they would say because they are the restrictive environment.
	Right. Right. So everybody gets an excuse for how they act except for the child, right?
	And that's how you know. It's just complete nonsense.
	Because they're saying everything is determined, but the child has pure free will and is perfectly responsible for his or her actions, right?
	I mean, it's stone evil, but it is a very common mythology.
	So I just, whenever I hear that kind of stuff, I was like, well, my parents, my grandparents were like this because they were brought up in the Depression.
	I was like, no, your grandparents were like that because your family is fucked up.
	Right. And I found that it's interesting.
	I hadn't really thought about it this way, but I'm acting out both sides of that modeling.
	I think my mother is spending it like water and my grandparents not spending it at all.
	Well, and you didn't like the financial instability of your childhood, right?
	Not at all. I mean, you know, with mother, it was always like half a paycheck away from disaster, and it was horrendous.
	And I mean, you know, with my grandparents, it was like, okay, you guys are rich.
	I mean, you could live, you know.
	So it was always one extreme or the other, and I was always really uncomfortable.
	With those extremes?
	Yeah, with those extremes.
	I hate to bring this up.
	I don't want it to be distracting, but I started stealing from my grandfather at six years old and just buying things that I wanted that they wouldn't give to me.
	Sure, yes. No, absolutely.
	I mean, I can understand that.
	And I went through a shoplifting phase when I was, I guess, 12 or so.
	And, yeah, I mean, that's just because, I mean, society is a state of nature for you, right?
	So people aren't going to give you anything even if you deserve it and they have it and they claim that they want to because they love you, right?
	But it just doesn't, you know, it's just a state of nature and also it's a way...
	To find out, it's a way of testing the hypocrisy of society.
	I know this sounds all very abstract, but I took stuff that I didn't particularly need.
	And for me, I think it had a lot to do with testing this supposed benevolence of society because society says, you know, we care and we care about the children and so on.
	And so if a child steals, what does society do?
	Well, society just attacks the child, right?
	Society doesn't sit there and say, I wonder why this child is stealing, right?
	But when you're 12, obviously you're not making moral decisions with that kind of knowledge.
	But anyway, I think that's sort of why that stuff occurs.
	And then what happens is a lot of people go from there to a kind of nihilism, right?
	Because they realize that society's benevolence is just a bunch of nonsense.
	And it's just about attacking whoever you have power over while claiming to be virtuous.
	And that's sort of where we take it from there.
	But yeah, I would say that you've got a model which is...
	These two poles and these two extremes, and you probably also have something which is to do with or around a feeling of entitlement, like a feeling like, well, I should have this book.
	I'm very smart. I like to read.
	I use my knowledge for good.
	I just should have this book, right?
	And there's something around that, if that makes sense.
	I don't really tell myself that in so many words, but what I say is, oh, a book.
	Excellent. I'll get it.
	Okay, but what you need to do to figure out what's really going on is to imagine if somebody's standing next to you and says, you can't afford this book, what is your first feeling?
	Resentment. Right, and that's the entitlement, right?
	Right, right. That makes sense.
	Yeah, it was the same thing.
	Mother would be the same way whenever I would say, look, we can't afford this.
	You know, she would get the same way.
	Oh, yeah. No, spendthrifts are very angry people.
	Very angry people. People who spend a lot, they're putting other people in an impossible situation in the same way the people who drink a lot put other people in an impossible situation.
	Because if your parent is in a financially precarious position and they're spending a lot, then of course, what are you going to do?
	Sit there and watch them drag your family down into complete disaster?
	Or are you going to say...
	We can't afford this.
	We don't need this. I don't need it.
	Because, you know, either you then take disaster or you take rage.
	And that, of course, just is another way of forcing a child into an impossible situation in the hopes of breaking their brain.
	Was there anyone else who had a question about this before we returned to the RNC show?
	I don't understand why then I have always been not so much lately, but spin-thrift.
	I guess, is that the word for it?
	Yeah. But this has always been, or as far back as I can possibly remember, my first getting allowance, I was...
	I'm spending it, you know, the moment I had enough for a certain toy or whatever.
	And I remember my little brother was like the miser, and he would save all his money.
	And he would never spend it.
	He had like thousands of dollars by the time, you know, he was old enough to move out.
	Right. And your question is, why were you a spendthrift?
	Yes. Yes. Well, who were you without the stuff?
	Who were you without the toys, right?
	Or let me put it another way.
	Sorry, that's not particularly clear.
	Were these toys something that were mostly for you or was it other people who you would show these toys or play with?
	It was always for me.
	So it was just for you? Yes, because I was bored or, you know, bored.
	Right, and you didn't have a lot of, well, much, if any, positive interaction with people, right?
	No, not really at all.
	And you didn't, as far as I understand it, when you were younger, you didn't have a very strong sense of the future, of your future.
	In what sense?
	Well, you know, when I grew up, I'm going to be, and my life is going to look like this, and I want two kids, and I want to have this by the time I'm 30, and I, you know, whatever.
	Oh, no. No, I couldn't even imagine that.
	Right, so, I mean, when you grow up like that, what you grow up with is basically with the financial mindset of a guy who's been told he has three months to live, right?
	That's kind of how I lived.
	Yeah, so guys who have three months to live, and it depends on the window changes as you get older, but it doesn't get very long.
	The guy who's, oh, I only have three months to live, I mean, he's not going to sit there and plan out his retirement, right?
	Oh no, he's going to withdraw it and spend it all.
	Yeah, he's going to borrow Rich's credit card and he's just going to spend that mofo until it glows, right?
	Right. So it just says that your window of planning as a child was not long, and that's because you lived in a chaotic environment where you never knew what was coming next.
	So why wouldn't you just grab stuff for the moment, right?
	I mean, in a sense, there is no tomorrow, right?
	Right. That's kind of my mindset.
	Yeah, that's true.
	And I can imagine, I can come up with a number of reasons of why I would have thought there was no tomorrow.
	I was always, especially during the school years when things started getting kind of bad, then around nine or ten years old, where I would feel isolated around people and get made fun of and ridiculed a lot,
	and I would I would fall back on the religious fantasies of, you know, oh, Jesus will come back and I'll be whisked away into...
	That's the leveling, right?
	So they put me down, but God is going to come back and throw them in hell, right?
	Right. Right, right, right.
	Right. And I mean, the short time frame or the short window that we work with as children, I don't think is necessarily the end of the world.
	And the reason that I say that is, can you think of anyone that or anyone who as a child you admired, Nate?
	Not just, you know, oh, he's got a great house or whatever.
	Not for material things, but a human being that you admired.
	No, nobody.
	No human beings.
	Just Superman.
	Yeah. Right.
	But that's important because I sort of roughly think, more or less, that children, even from dysfunctional homes, would be willing to make sacrifices and think of things more in the long term if they saw some successful example of that around them.
	So if you knew some guy who'd become a lawyer who was...
	Kind and gentle and courageous, right?
	Was willing to stand up to the corruption that most of us were experiencing all around us.
	Then we'd say, oh, okay, well, if you plan, then you can become this kind of great guy, right?
	But when I looked around, I saw, I mean, I had a friend of mine whose dad was a doctor.
	And so you think, okay, well, he's got a nice house.
	He's got a nice car and so on.
	But frankly, he was a dick.
	I mean, this is the guy who told me, Steph, you need to start wearing deodorant when you come to my house, right?
	And you didn't ask me why I didn't know that, right?
	Because my mom had been in bed for three weeks and I didn't know what the hell was going on.
	We were getting eviction notices and so on, right?
	But if you notice that a kid is completely missing the social graces, is always hovering around your house when it's time to eat, and doesn't know enough to perform basic personal hygiene, why wouldn't you do something?
	Right? Rather than just hand this kid a A deodorant, right?
	And so I said, okay, well, you could be a doctor.
	But doctors are kind of assholes, right?
	And then he ended up getting divorced a few years later.
	So I'm sure that this kind of callousness obviously had nothing to do with me in particular.
	And, you know, I knew another guy whose dad was a lawyer.
	I knew another guy whose dad was incredibly rich.
	He actually ran the Toronto Stock Exchange.
	So, well, this guy. And then he had a huge house and so on.
	But his wife was a total bitch.
	I knew another guy whose father was a stockbroker.
	And I went over to his house, had a sleepover, and the next morning I was eating a cookie and some crumbs dropped down.
	He actually made me get on my hands and knees to pick up the crumbs from the carpet.
	He was either that frightened of his mother or he was that much of a bully, right?
	And of course, I didn't grow up with any kind of nurtured spine.
	I'm just like, sure, okay, I hated it, but I'd pick up the crumbs, right?
	So it's like, okay, I could be this.
	I could be a stockbroker, but then I just raised kids who were assholes, right?
	So I just – I didn't see anyone around me that is like made it worth deferring gratification in order to become that kind of person.
	Huh.
	Now, I would say, well, that's strange because I wonder why my little brother was the miser.
	But, of course, now he's a not-so-successful actor, right?
	Well, I mean, everybody takes it a different way and there is no determinism here, right?
	Thank you.
	So everybody takes it a different way, and if you were to ask your brother at any point, I'm sure there'd be some ways of figuring it out, right?
	But our relationship to money is obviously quite complex and so on, and it does have something to do with whether we...
	I think Charlotte pointed out something that's important that we buy status things to level up when we feel down or depressed or whatever.
	And I think that happens for sure.
	But also, there is this feeling that we have that anything we hoard is going to get taken away.
	So if we put our money in a bank, it's just going to vanish one day.
	Right? We're just going to wake up and it'll be gone.
	You know, like the guys who had their money in that, what is it, e-gold or whatever it was, right?
	They're just afraid. They're going to wake up one day and the government's going to say, it's closed down, it's all gone, right?
	Because that was the kind of instability we lived with, right?
	Right, and that's kind of a fear I have too.
	Right, right.
	And it's, you know, the fears of the German hyperinflation, if you read about it.
	I was fascinated by that stuff when I was in my early teens, right?
	This German hyperinflation and all that, because it's just terrifying that your money can just vanish, right?
	Right. Right, so you might as well spend it while you got it, right?
	Right, exactly. It's like a coupon for a free car that expires in a month.
	Well, if you don't use it, you lose it, right?
	Right. Right.
	And I also know that in my family if I didn't buy something Then my money would just be taken away, right?
	Because it'd be like, we need the money for rent, right?
	Now, if I bought it, it'd be like, nope, I bought this book, right?
	So what are they going to do?
	Make me take it back? No, I would just lose the receipt or whatever, right?
	But if I had any money, and of course I was working at a job from when I was 11, and so I did have money and I would work summers and just hand money over to the family because they always needed money, right?
	And so, yeah, it's like, spend now or, you know, forever lose your gold.
	Huh. Yeah, that makes sense.
	Yeah, I would say that things that I've even bought recently, the computer, have been the same kind of pacifier toys that I look at too as occupiers of have been the same kind of pacifier toys that I look at
	Because especially kind of it might have been in response to having dumped my remaining friends or not to quote unquote friends.
	Well, I have to tell you, Nate, I mean, with all frankness, you're a bit of a dick about your possessions.
	And I mean that with all respect, but, I mean, you know, because you're like, oh, I have an 8-core processor with 8 gigs of RAM and I run everything at 60 frames a second and so on, right?
	Okay. You're a bit of a dick about it in that way, right?
	Was I? Oh, okay.
	I didn't realize I was doing that.
	No, I mean, again, I'm not saying that you're sitting there consciously rubbing an evil mustache or whatever, right?
	But, you know, to me, that's kind of dicky, in my opinion.
	Alright. I mean, tell me if I'm wrong.
	I mean, I don't want to be unjust, right?
	That's just sort of my experience of it is kind of irritation, you know?
	I don't exactly feel elevated by hearing you brag about your incredible computer or whatever, right?
	Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I guess that's true.
	I guess when it comes to computers, I tend to...
	Well, it's sensitivity to, you know, we have a lot of younger people on the board, a lot of people who don't have a lot of money, right?
	Right. So, I mean, I don't think you go around the cancer ward saying, look at me, I can bench 150 or 200, right?
	No. Right, so I mean, again, this is, I mean, not a very apt metaphor, but you...
	I mean, it was the same thing that you did with the girlfriends, too, right?
	Oh, she's amazing, she's wonderful, we're so in love, we're so happy, and so on, right?
	You use the things that you have bought, and that's why I asked you at the beginning whether it involved other people.
	I don't remember the toys so much involving other people.
	But now there is a status thing, right?
	Like, you preen a little bit on the stuff you have, right?
	Right. And so I'm just saying that's putting the computer forward like it makes you better, if that makes sense.
	Right. Or cooler or, you know, well, I can do 60 frames a second at X resolution or whatever because I have all of this stuff, right?
	Right. And you realize that makes it harder to sympathize with you when you panic about losing your job.
	Everything you take that way, it costs you, right?
	Right. Yeah, I can see how that would be.
	Right. I mean, you understand that, right?
	And it's hard. It's then like if you say, well, this girl is great and then you break up, then it's hard.
	If you've kind of been rubbing people's faces in how great it is, then if it falls apart, you just pay for it then, right?
	That's right. Right.
	So you say, well, I have a better computer than all of you.
	My computer is incredible, right?
	And then you're freaking out because...
	You're worried about money, right?
	Right. Yeah, that is kind of...
	That's kind of fucked up.
	It's a little bit, right? And this is back to the hippie thing, right?
	Hippie talks about his six-figure income and this and that, right?
	And then, you know, just refused to donate anything for this board he's been using for a couple of years.
	I think he sent 20 bucks or something like that, right?
	And then immediately demanded a donator icon.
	Like, it's just less sympathy, right?
	Or the way that, and this is not to put you in the same moral category, but again with Hippie, right?
	This guy who says that the American soldiers are completely evil and should be, I don't know, like barbecued or something, eaten by cormorants or some awful thing, right?
	Yeah. And then it turns out that he's been, you know, working in the military-industrial complex, right?
	And why? Well, because he's got mouths to feed, right?
	Like, the soldiers don't, right?
	It's just that, you know, when we put...
	I'm always conscious, and maybe hyper-conscious, that if I put certain things out there, am I going to get sympathy if I need it, right?
	And if you put out...
	If you brag about your possessions...
	Then when you start to worry about money, it's harder for people to be sympathetic, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, that does make a lot of sense.
	And I think that you want to, A, not make people feel annoyed when you're trying to put forward, and particularly at a philosophy side, right?
	I mean, maybe at a hardware guru's side, people would think that the quad-core thing makes you extra cool, right?
	But... You didn't invent the computer, right?
	You just bought it, right?
	It's always people who's like, if you invent the Lamborghini, I'm impressed.
	If you just buy a Lamborghini, I'm not, frankly, right?
	Right. Right, now that all makes a lot of sense.
	So yeah, it's just a way you get the leveling up and then what happens is you feel the lack of sympathy when you're down and neither of those things are going to be very satisfying in the long run for sure.
	Damn, I never even realized I was...
	Well, you know, it's FDR where it's like, come swallow the jagged pill of other people's perspectives or opinions of you, right?
	Right. Yeah, it's another thing to be aware of, I guess.
	Yeah, I mean, it comes out of nervousness, Nate, and it comes out of not feeling that you have something to contribute at that moment.
	Right? So bragging is something that comes...
	And bragging doesn't come from a place of security, right?
	No. I just never thought I was using it as like a vanity thing because I always thought...
	You know, if I were doing that, I would have bought a house I couldn't afford.
	You know, a real house that I can't afford.
	Like... Well, but for you it's not houses, it's toys, right?
	Yes. I mean, everybody has their thing, right?
	I mean, everybody has their thing.
	And for a single guy to buy a big house would be just so obviously silly, right?
	Right. But, no, for you it's toys, right?
	Everybody has their thing, right?
	Yeah, that makes sense. So for you, I mean, it gives you something to brag about, but it also distances you from people, right?
	Our possessions can definitely do that, for sure.
	Wow. Well, thanks for pointing all that out.
	I didn't realize I would have gone on continuing with it.
	Well, this is just my thought, right?
	I mean, I could be misinterpreting that.
	It could come from my own history.
	This is just my thought, right?
	So, you know, if people see that and they feel irritated by it, or maybe I could be completely wrong, right?
	So nothing I say is gospel, right?
	So this is just my thought.
	And I think other people have experienced, too, if I saw the chat window, right?
	But, you know, the important thing is to see how you feel when you want to talk about how great your computer is.
	Right. I guess that makes sense then.
	It's good to know what other people's experience of me is, because it explains some of the feelings I've had.
	You're bigger than the computer, right?
	I mean, you have a big brain and a big heart.
	And you don't need a quad core.
	Sorry, eight, whatever, a weak core.
	You don't need that to have value in the community, right?
	Right. So can I just finish up with Rich and Colleen, if they're still up?
	Yep, we're here. Hello? Okay, so my thoughts in a nutshell is just a question.
	Where do you guys see yourself in three years as a couple?
	I see us married.
	Yeah, married. Okay, and why would that be in three years?
	Not in three years exactly.
	Yeah, not in three years, but I mean, that's where we would be.
	Okay, and why not now?
	That's a good question.
	And I don't want to put you on the spot, and I realize that I am doing so horribly, so I'm not going to sit with that question, because there's no way to answer it quickly.
	But you guys are living as if you're married, right?
	Right. I mean, you're living together...
	I mean, your finances are not separate, right?
	No, they're not. So do you guys have one bank account?
	We will very soon.
	Yeah, we're getting a joint account soon.
	Okay, so you're going to get a joint account.
	And Rich, you're the big income earner.
	I mean, we have to be crass and just talk like good old-fashioned capitalists, right?
	But Rich, you're going to be the big income earner.
	And Colleen, you're not, right?
	Because you're going back to school. Right.
	So, I mean, in a purely mechanical sense, Rich, you are taking on a lot of expenses in the form of Colleen going back to school, right?
	Right. I mean, you're not going to live like a student, and she can't live like she's got an income like yours, right?
	I'm sorry, you cut out.
	Well, you're not going to live like a student, and she's not going to live like she has an income like yours, right?
	Right. So you're going to be paying more, right?
	Yes. And a lot more.
	If you guys want to go on vacation, if you guys want to go away, the place that you're living when you go out for dinner, I mean, you're going to be paying a lot more, right?
	Mm-hmm. Is this something you guys have talked about?
	Yeah, we've discussed a bit.
	We definitely understand that the bird's going to be more on rich financially.
	Right, and look, I mean, I think that's great.
	I think that's what couples should do, right?
	Right. But you're not married yet.
	Right. Right. And so what's happening is the financial decisions that you're making as a couple are being made on the presumption that you're going to be together for life, right? Right.
	But you haven't made that commitment to each other yet.
	Right.
	We have talked about it.
	I don't know why it hasn't come.
	It's just... Oh, it's a horrible topic.
	I mean, look, don't... The reason you haven't talked about it is it's a totally horrible topic, right?
	Because for some reason, there's this thing in couples that you don't talk that much about money, right?
	Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
	Because love, you see, is supposed to exist in this elevated cloud castle far above mere worldly concerns, right?
	It's those goddamn cheesy 80 pop songs, you know?
	Love will get us through, love will keep us together, who needs the money, honey, when you've got the whatever, right?
	I'll give you a diamond ring, my friend, if it'll make you feel alright, right?
	I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love, right?
	And so we have this feeling that, you know, nuts and bolts conversations about money are cold, are selfish, are cruel, are this, are that, are the other, right?
	We don't have to talk about this, right?
	I don't want to push you guys into something that's too horrible for words, right?
	No, I definitely want to.
	I just said mm-hmm. Okay, sorry, I wasn't sure what kind of mm-hmm that was because we don't have the video.
	So I'm not sure if it was the mm-hmm where you're giving me the finger to.
	I'm always trying to be sensitive to those because those are important to pick up on.
	Because you are taking on a big debt here, Rich, right?
	Yes. So you worrying about $7,000 is a lot less than you're going to be laying out over the next few years, right?
	Yeah, for sure.
	And the death thing, I don't mean that there's anything negative or bad, but it's just a fact, right?
	So earlier I said that when we have repetitive thoughts, it tends to be because we are using something as a stand-in or a proxy for what we're really concerned about, right?
	So you're worrying about $7,000 debt that you can get paid off in a year, easy peasy, and it would be paid off a lot sooner if Colleen had the same income that you did.
	But the real reality of what's going on here, how long is the course that you're looking at taking, Colleen?
	It hasn't come down to that yet.
	Roughly. Probably about two years.
	About two years. Okay.
	So... Yes.
	or not.
	And it doesn't really matter, right?
	Because whatever you work with is not going to be that much because it's going to be part time and it's going to be the kind of job that you can have while you're in school and so on, right?
	So it's going to be, you know, grocery money or something, right?
	Right, right.
	And again, there's nothing good or bad about it.
	I mean, Christina and I have done this seesaw at least twice where we catch each other while we're setting up our dreams, right?
	So that's not the issue, but the reality is that it's going to be pretty expensive, right?
	I mean, you're going to have tuition, you're going to have books, there's going to be just all of the associated expenses that go with being in school, right?
	Right. And do you have a rough budget of what you think it's going to be, of what it's going to cost to you as a couple, right, and mostly rich, right, to have you in school for two years?
	It'll actually depend on whether or not we're married.
	Because I can get all kinds of government loans based on whether I'm married or not.
	So you get the loans if you are married, is that right?
	Correct. Okay, so it will cost less, right?
	There'll be some defraignment of the cost.
	Exactly. But that doesn't help with the opportunity costs.
	And the opportunity costs are, and I'm not saying this is good or bad, again, this is just the fiscal reality, the opportunity costs are, if you were making the same thing that Rich was making, right?
	Right. Right, like if you were making the same amount that Rich was making, right, anytime there's a disparity in a couple's income, you tend to live at the salary level of the highest person, right, and a little more, right?
	Right. So anytime there's a disparity in the income of a couple, it falls upon the person who's making the most to support a higher lifestyle than the other person could, right?
	Right. And again, none of this is good or bad, right?
	But you're making decisions.
	I mean, there is a big debt, so to speak, that is coming to Rich over the next few years.
	I mean, the government loans will certainly help and so on, but there is just going to be a lifestyle reality, right?
	That by being with Rich, you're going to have a much higher standard of living than if you were just a single student, right?
	Right. And that difference is going to come out of his paycheck.
	But you guys are taking a big commitment here, right?
	And so your finances are sort of ahead of your wedding plans, if that makes sense?
	Yeah, I'd say that's true.
	And this, again, this is not – it's no criticism.
	But I think that this is a pretty big thing, right?
	Right.
	And I think that if you're not talking about it, it's going to bite you bad, in my opinion.
	Right. Because you can have these commitments as a couple, for sure, and they can be wonderful commitments, right?
	I mean, I bored everyone by saying how Christina supported my writing, and then I supported Christina getting her business started, and then she helped me transition into FDR. I mean, that pendulum can work out beautifully and can give you a lot of security and flexibility.
	But you're making some very long-term decisions about your finances, right?
	Absolutely. Because it's not like the moment you graduate, your salary is going to equal riches, right?
	Right. So he's going to be continuing to accelerate in his income, and you're going to be starting at a lower income in a couple of years, possibly with some debt, right?
	Right. And what kind of life are you going to lead?
	Are you going to lead a life based on Colleen's income and bank the difference to save for a house?
	Are you going to live at Rich's income and accept not having those savings and have Rich then pay for the bulk of your – at least some significant portion of your expenses, Colleen, right?
	I just think those are things – I know that couples don't like to talk about money but what are the two – what do the couples fight about?
	They fight about sex and they fight about money and they fight about kids.
	And you don't have kids, I don't care about your sex life, but the money part is something that you can actually talk about, because if you don't, this is what causes lots of problems in relationships, right?
	That's true. There's a lot of nuts and bolts about living together, and open and frank talk about money is, I think, very important.
	Right, so...
	Perhaps the reason we've been sort of putting off the marriage, because it's been brought up before, is because we know we don't have that communication with the important things like finances down yet.
	Yeah, if you're avoiding topics as central as finances, I personally don't think that you're quite ready to get married, and I think that's sort of the paradox that you're in.
	And again, this is nonsense opinions from Canada, right?
	So, you know, just take them for whatever they're worth, right?
	But if you're avoiding topics as central as, okay, so you're going back to school, how are we going to, you know, what does this mean, right?
	There's a great scene in a movie that's not very good called The Accidental Tourist.
	Where a guy who's dating a girl who's got kids says to her when she says, my kid's not getting a good education in the public schools, they've been dating, I don't know, a year or two or whatever.
	And he says, well, put them in a private school.
	She says, well, I can't afford it.
	And he says, I'll pay.
	And she turns to him and says, for how long?
	And I mean that's kind of core, right?
	Because if you're married, it's like you're married, right?
	So you're together until the Grim Reaper separates you and so you don't say for how long, right?
	And you're willing to make investments in the other person because the relationship has stability and continuity to the point where you know that if you plant the crops, you're the one who actually gets to harvest them, right?
	But if you, I mean, I tell you, Rich, it's not, I mean, this is no prediction or anything like that, right?
	But, I mean, if you pay for Colleen's education, and then you guys break up in two years, you're not going to be very happy, right?
	No. And there's no prediction.
	I'm not saying it will, I'm just saying, right?
	But that's a reality, because you'd be like, well, I feel like I should send a bill now, right?
	I mean, to put it in kind of cold terms, right?
	And again, I'm not saying that that's going to happen or it's nothing like that, but because you're not married yet, those are things that are important, right?
	I would have talked about it, frankly, and up front.
	You know, life gets more loving but less romantic, right?
	I mean, I've got to imagine once you see a baby's head popping out of your wife's hoo-hoo, you've kind of reached a pretty basic level of intimacy, right?
	And it's the same thing to some degree with money, right?
	That apparently it comes out of women's hoo-hoos.
	I didn't know that was possible.
	Right. That's my understanding.
	But it's the same thing with money, right?
	There's a fundamental kind of intimacy, right?
	Around that, where you can talk about it in these kinds of frank terms.
	But, I mean, I think you guys are not talking about that.
	And I think that that's just...
	You're young, right?
	I mean, you're young and you're living together and you're making these big complicated decisions about stuff prior to marriage.
	And that makes it tough to talk about, right?
	Yes. Right.
	And we've started, like, we've just started to bring that aspect into our discussion more, but I think that's a big reason that this whole topic was brought up for us.
	Was brought up? You mean, you brought up...
	Sorry, I didn't quite understand that last bit.
	I think it's part of the reason that we wanted, that Rich wanted to discuss this.
	Yeah, well, Rich's unconscious is saying, I'm really worried about financial obligations, right?
	Right. Now, because Rich is anxious about talking about it, because he doesn't want to appear like cold-calculating capitalist pig dog, right?
	So, Rich is like, okay, I guess I'll just gravitate towards the seven grand from six months ago, right?
	Not the 20 or 30 grand over the next two years.
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah. I mean, that's why, to me, it was kind of funny, and I mean this with all respects, right, and affection, but it was kind of funny to say, well, you know, there's this few thousand bucks from six months ago, and it's like, really?
	Because she's going back to school, right?
	I mean, are you sure it's about the money from the past, right?
	Which is under control, and that's why I asked you, what do you think the odds are of you not being able to pay it?
	Pay it off, right? And you say, well, it's almost none.
	It's like, well, then either you're crazy, or you're worried about something else, and I know you're not crazy, right?
	Right. And love is enough to get you through this, but love means talking openly and frankly about the responsibilities and obligations that are going on, right?
	Right. Which is how we fight the foo, right?
	Because in the foo, right, I mean, most people are like money's verboten.
	We don't talk about money. We don't, right?
	Oh, yeah, absolutely.
	Yeah, my family too.
	Yeah, and that's nonsense. I mean, and it's destructive, right?
	I mean, I'm not saying you sit there and talk about money with your kids, right?
	But because with your kids, you say that the shiny nickel is actually worth a million dollars, and you'll give it to them if they mow the lawn, right?
	So that's the way you work with it.
	But with adults, I mean, full disclosure and open and, you know, with a relationship, and this is just my opinion, all of it, right?
	But you have to be willing to look like a total jerk in a relationship for there to be open and honest communication.
	Because if you feel something but then you say, well, I don't want to talk about it because I don't want to seem like a jerk… Then, I mean, you're not giving your partner a lot of respect and you're not also just being curious about, well, maybe it is really important, right?
	And, I mean, we have this template.
	Like, we say, well, I don't want to say that I'm not supportive of you going back to school and I don't want to say that I'm concerned or worried about the financial implications of you going back to school because then I'm not going to be supportive and I'm not going to fall into the template of the good boyfriend or whatever, right?
	But... You're inside my head.
	Yeah, no, I know. I know.
	It's like I have this cardboard cutout.
	You know, it's like that Japanese game show where you have to fit into the Tetris thing.
	I don't know if you've ever seen that. But that's what we feel, like these constant series of roles come along, right?
	And we have to, you know, we stand up.
	I am the sergeant major, good boyfriend, right?
	I can do no wrong.
	I am always there for you.
	Nothing will go bad. And you have to be like this guy standing at attention as the relationship troops pass by and they have to polish their buttons and I'll just exhaust the metaphor here.
	But you feel like, well, if I express concern about this financial situation and where we're going into, and you say, this is not in my comfort zone to put in this kind of emotional and financial commitment...
	Prior to marriage, I don't feel comfortable, and then it's just like, I'm not supportive.
	I'm a bad boyfriend, right?
	Yeah, right. Well, I mean, but you're not...
	What you want is you want to give Colleen the right to call you a bad boyfriend, right?
	You don't want to preempt that.
	Give her that right. Give her that ability, right?
	Don't preempt it and say, well, I'm going to self-censor because I don't want to be called a bad boyfriend, right?
	And you do, I mean, I don't think this is the case, I don't know, but you certainly don't want to be in a relationship where if you express your honest feelings, whether or not they are convenient to the other person, if you are labeled a bad person for expressing your honest feelings...
	That's important to know, right?
	I don't think that's the case, right?
	But you don't want to self-censor at that point, right?
	Because then you're just...
	This is what I keep pounding away with people on these personal relationships.
	Then you're heavily taxed, right?
	It's like you're living in a relatively free society, but 60% of your time is taxed with obsessive worries about money, right?
	And also, you live in a society without a huge amount of censorship, right?
	And yet, you can't be honest because you're afraid of not fitting a template of some artificial Prince Charming good boyfriend, right?
	Yeah, yeah. But this is the self-statism that is so common, right?
	Right. Yes.
	And, I mean, you guys would be able to figure this stuff out, I mean, for sure, right?
	It's just that you had ridiculously bad templates from your parents, and, you know, I hate to say it, but you're young, right?
	I mean, so, you just, I mean, you just, you don't know this stuff, right?
	You only know it unconsciously, and it comes out in terms of avoidance and anxiety, but you can certainly figure it out once you realize how important it is, right, and figure out how to do it.
	Yes, yes. Yeah, I just, I mean, sometimes I feel so dumb listening to this.
	We should talk about money.
	No, listen, and I don't want you to feel that way.
	You're not. Because you're certainly intelligent enough to ask the questions, right?
	And you get all of this stuff totally, instinctively.
	It's just that it was never modeled for you.
	I mean, you don't know Mandarin until you learn Mandarin, right?
	It's not because you're dumb, right?
	You just, you guys had ridiculously bad templates from your parents, right?
	Right. Because it wasn't just don't do this.
	It was like, this is evil.
	We don't talk about this stuff.
	It's not even no template.
	It's a completely bad template, right?
	Oh, yeah. It's like someone taught you that Mandarin was hitting your head with a shovel, right?
	Right. But definitely, thanks for...
	Thanks for shining the flashlight this way.
	Yes, exactly. And if it's any consolation, I spent $60,000 making a movie for a girl and broke up with her six months later.
	So, I only say this from battle-weary experience myself, right?
	So, this is not...
	I mean, and I was in my 30s.
	So, I was like 10 years older than where you guys are.
	So, for heaven's sakes, don't feel dumb.
	Or if you do, I don't even know where that puts me on the scale.
	Yeah. Okay, well, I won't keep talking because, I mean, there's not much point in you guys continuing to talk to me.
	So I hope, I mean, just keep talking about it.
	If there's anything else that I could do that would be helpful, then let me know.
	But I certainly do appreciate you asking the question because, I mean, you can certainly figure it out from here.
	Thank you so much, Dan. Thanks again.
	You are welcome. Have a great night, everyone.

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