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June 18, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:20:53
1090 Anger and its Aftermath...

A listener talks about her conflicts with me...

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Time Text
Okay, now that we're all gathered together again, I can begin again if Steph wants to edit out all of this bloody stuff that just happened in the middle.
Yeah, I'll just reassemble it into highly libelous stuff, one of the two for sure.
There you go, you can put me to a YouTube video, some stupid Enigma song or something.
Exactly. So I wanted to bring this up, I guess, because I've already sort of got an idea.
But I've found myself not wanting to do anything lately.
Like, not really wanting to get out of bed, not wanting to go to work, not wanting to, you know, clean my room or do dishes or even read, you know, books that I've wanted to read for months.
I was wondering, because this has happened to me on and off, but I think the latest bout started after we had that series of less-than-optimal discussions a couple weeks ago, Steph.
You mean you and I? Yeah, you and me.
Yes, okay, yeah. So after that, it was pretty much like I... The day after I sent you that last email, it was like, you know what?
I really don't want to go to work.
So I didn't go. And, you know, the job that I'm talking about not wanting to go to is the job of the music department.
So it's kind of like a college thing.
You drift in and out wherever.
It's not like a real job.
I wouldn't count it as one.
So I just didn't go in one day.
And then I just didn't go in the next day.
Now, mind you, when I say don't go in, I mean, like, just didn't show up and didn't call and didn't anything.
So, yeah, it's been kind of like that.
And today it's lifted a little bit.
Yeah.
After talking to my therapist about it, I mean, he wasn't much...
He was some help, at least in asking me questions, which kind of directed me towards, you know, figuring out...
A little bit on my own, what sort of happened to me.
But I was wondering if you or anybody else had some ideas about questions that I could ask myself or something like that to kind of get through this, because this has been a recurrent thing.
I mean, it's not just these two weeks.
This has been a recurrent thing for as long as I can remember.
A recurring thing where you don't want to get out of bed, don't want to do things, is that right?
Yeah. And what is the feeling that keeps you in bed?
Is it depression? Is it emptiness?
Is it laziness? Do you feel lassitude?
Do you feel ennui? What is it that is keeping you in bed or is preventing you from feeling motivated?
Mm-hmm. It's not really depression per se.
It's like when I think of doing anything, you know how there's like a stereotypical child who, you know, when you say, do X, the kid replies, but I don't wanna.
That's kind of what goes through my head, you know, in that same petulant tone, but I don't wanna.
Right, right, right.
And this occurred after you and I had our altercations, is that right?
Yeah, this latest round, yeah.
And was it directly afterwards or was there a time lag?
Could there have been another intervening factor?
There were two or three days when I didn't do much of anything except, like, sit.
And, I mean, this wasn't, like, ennui sitting.
This was, like, useful sitting trying to figure out, you know, what the hell was going on for me.
And I didn't, you know, I was thinking that I was going to take journaling back up again or something like that.
I mean, for the past...
Three or four weeks, I've written nothing in my journal whatsoever, whereas, you know, before I was writing like 80 pages a week, so that's something else that's gone by the wayside.
But after the last email that I sent you, there were like three days where I sat down and tried to figure out, you know, what the hell was going on.
I re-listened to Some of the conversations that we'd had, and I re-read the emails, and it was a lot of thinking to myself, what the hell?
What the hell, man?
Kind of like beating myself up, I guess.
It doesn't really feel like that's what I was doing, but I guess the wording that I was using to myself is kind of abusive.
Right, so what the hell is a euphemism, right?
Yeah. And what do you think you were doing?
There were a lot of things that I didn't really want to come to terms with.
So what I was doing in all of those emails is, you know, making you into...
What I didn't want to come to terms with, what I didn't want to process in saying, hey, staff's the problem.
Attack staff, you know?
But over the last three years, though, fortunately, you're the very first person to do that to me.
Exactly. So at least I've never had to deal with that before.
So from that standpoint, it was a new experience for me, which was nice.
You know, it's spicy, I guess.
Right, right. A little piquant dish for you.
Yes. And that was like the end of the day, day one.
I realized, you know what?
I've been doing exactly what a whole lot of other people do, Tim.
And I mean, this is not where I want to be.
And that's when the, what the hell, man, kind of started.
Right. And what the hell was, as you say, was sort of hostile towards yourself, right?
Yes. It's hard.
And just for those who don't know and don't necessarily want to fall asleep by not knowing what's going on, Charlotte got angry at me for a variety of things and sent some angry emails to me.
And we took a break from communicating from each other and so on.
But because she wasn't being abusive in public and was retaining her civility on the board and in the chat room, I can take it, right?
I mean, I'm not made of glass.
So because of that, there was no particular reason to, say, take a break from the boards or the chat room or whatever.
So that was sort of where you ended up through that, right?
Right, okay.
And so where did you get with the what the hell?
I mean, obviously, or it sounds like you had a tough time RTRing with yourself about this stuff to be curious about what strategies you were deploying in relation to me and to sort of say, well, where did this come from?
And, you know, the curiosity, the gentleness, the openness that it doesn't sound like you were able to get that far.
Is that right? For like the first two days, whenever I thought about it, it was immediately, you know, what the hell, man.
By the third day, it was kind of like, okay, let's sit down and actually discuss this.
So why do I want to attack Steph?
And why do I do it without thinking first?
And, you know, why do I feel the need right now to make him into the problem?
What is it that I'm denying by foisting it on him?
And I got a little bit further.
Not as far as I'd like to in terms of, like, being able to catch myself when I start to do it again.
It's just like, I kind of get a sense of where these particular things came from.
But as far as, you know, being able to restrain myself next time, you know, when it starts like, Steph's being just like my mother, you know, that, I'm not sure I've gotten that squared away, frankly.
Right, right, right, right.
Now I can understand that for sure.
And so what is it that you would like the most from me in this call?
Um... Well, I think that if I figure out or ask you or see if you have any ideas on what I can do to actually work with that and square that away and get farther than I've gotten,
I think that the laziness and procrastination and the petulance and stuff, I think that's pretty much either going to take care of itself or I'll be able to see a through way to kind of helping myself with that.
Sorry, that won't take care of itself.
That's going to take some work, obviously, on your part with the help of your therapist.
Sorry, continue.
But I guess just trying to figure out...
What the actual antecedents were, I think that would be more helpful because I think that's something that I can't really talk about with my therapist anymore, at least in a useful manner.
The other stuff I can work with with him.
Sorry, when you say the antecedents, what you mean is the stuff that preceded the lassitude or the stuff that preceded the temper?
Actually, the stuff that preceded the temper.
Right. Okay. Okay.
And so for you it's not clear why you got angry at me and then why you then went into a kind of lassitude, is that right?
Yeah, it's not clear to me.
I mean, I can point to a couple of things that were going on for me that I didn't tell you about.
But as to, you know, why I started equating you with mother, it feels like I wanted to use the words all of a sudden, but obviously it's not just all of a sudden.
Well, it was all of a sudden insofar as you hadn't associated me with your mother before, but all of a sudden there was this very much, this overlap, right, between myself and your mother, which triggered your temper, right?
Yes. Right.
Okay. Okay. Got it.
Got it. I'm still not, and I'm sorry if I'm missing something, and I certainly am not sure of things to say, but I want to make sure that I'm going to work on the stuff that's most helpful to you.
I'm still not sure exactly what it is that you want from me during this conversation.
I just want, and it's not because you're not being clear, it's just that there's a lot of stuff that I could talk about based on what you're saying, but I don't know what the most useful stuff is.
To tell you the truth, I think you're probably wondering what the most useful stuff is, because I'm wondering the same thing.
I don't know what to say.
Okay, I'm happy to take charge if you think that would be helpful.
I think so, yeah.
Okay. Well, this is going to talk about some of your dark side, so I just want to know if you're ready for that.
And the reason that I ask you that is that I'm not going to do the temper thing with you again, just so you know, right?
I mean, I haven't done it with you the last time.
I haven't really done it with you the time before, but I'm not going to do it again, right?
So I don't want to talk about stuff immediately.
If it's going to be volatile for you, because that would be an unfortunate end to our friendship.
I mean, of that I have no doubt, right?
Because it's not good for you and it certainly isn't fun for me, right?
Right, exactly. I'm with you there, absolutely.
I don't think that it's going to be, well, it might be volatile, but I can contain my crazy, I think.
Okay, I wouldn't call it crazy, but I mean, so we can do it if you like, if you feel that you're ready for it.
Yes. Okay, well, you have a strategy called temper, right?
This is one of the things that you do when you feel threatened or you feel too vulnerable, right?
Yes. And it is particularly sensitive to status, right?
Right. So, tell me what...
I just want to make sure that we're both talking about the same thing, so just tell me what you got from those two things.
Status to me means...
I'll just draw an example.
Like, with my mother, I was never sure, like...
Where we were, you know, in our relationship.
If it was like, you know, oh, she loves me today or run away, run away.
So that uncertainty made me feel and makes me feel really, really upset.
And I know that one of the ways that I tried to resolve that sort of ambivalence or uncertainty with Mother was to, you know, I got really angry and she would, you know, escalate it right back.
And so I knew then exactly where we were, in a manner of speaking.
So that's what pops up in my mind.
Are we kind of on the same page there?
To some degree, yes or no.
But just before, Bill wanted to mention something before we continued.
Oh, I'll do it later, Steph.
I was just marveling at your hard-coded paths of somebody's philosophy position.
You were marveling at the code of the philosophy position?
I'm sorry, Charlotte. We'll have to continue this another time.
Sorry, go on. Wait, wait.
Let me display my temper.
Right, right. Sorry, Bill, you were saying?
No, I was just marveling at the hard-coded past.
I'm having some trouble getting some of the apps out.
Oh, we'll edit all that out and we'll just say I was marveling at the philosophization.
Okay. Well, no, I mean, I certainly do understand that with regards to your mother, but that's not specifically what I was talking about.
You have, obviously, you're intelligent and you're sensitive and so on, but you have a certain, to me, this is just all my thoughts and experience or whatever, right?
That with all of your intelligence and want and sensitivity comes a certain kind of pretentiousness.
And Lord knows I've been prey to that myself at times as well.
But that's what I sort of mean by status, if that makes any sense.
And you and I have talked about this before, which is the kind of slightly superior, you know, run-along little lamb, yes, dear, you know, that you and I have talked about before.
Oh, yeah. That makes sense.
Yes, it does. And so to tie it back into an incident that happened in New York when your status was questioned or criticized in front of other people, you kind of lashed out, right?
Yeah. Yes.
And so that means that you have, again, this is all just opinion, but this is my thoughts, that you have an ego that is built upon...
It is built upon your intelligence, your verbal skills, your education, your learning, your artistic knowledge, and so on, right?
Yes. And that indicates that you've not gone through the experience of being loved for who you are.
In other words, not what you can produce or not what you know or the intelligence or the other innate abilities that you have, but that you haven't, I think, experienced that thing where you're loved for just for who you are, if that makes sense. Yes.
I'm sorry, go ahead.
I just wanted to say I actually find that that's still going on.
I read books and I think, well, I wish I could be like this person.
Man, they know like 15 languages and how great would that be to impress people and things like that.
Oh, sure. And it's not just you, and it's not just me.
This is all around the world, right?
This is a cultural disease, right?
If I looked like Brad Pitt, then I would go into a disco or go into some place, then everybody would be like, ooh, and ah, and if I was wealthy, and if I could sing like Pavarotti, and if I had this aggregation of shiny talents and abilities to impress other people with...
Then I would be worth something, right?
Yeah. And of course it's not true.
We know this, obviously, I mean, I've mentioned it before, but I mean, if being rich and famous and beautiful and talented was enough to make you happy, then Marilyn Monroe would have lived a lot longer than she did, right?
Right, exactly. So, but we all have this fantasy, right?
The famous rich and beautiful thing, right?
That if we had those things, then we would be worth something.
We would be worth it for people to pay attention to us, right?
If that makes sense.
Right. Yes.
And you have that, right?
Two abundance, right?
Oh, yes. Yes.
And what that means is that it's making up for something that you feel is not present, right?
Yes. Right, so for instance, you don't, as far as I understand it, have a positive body image for yourself, right?
Not particularly, no.
And I say that because you don't show yourself on the videos, you don't show your picture, right?
Like when we do the uva or whatever, right?
I didn't have a camera that night, but yes.
Okay. So for you, there is the hole where your family affections should have been when you were a child, right?
Right. There was the exploitation that you and I talked about that one night before this all started?
Yes. And so, I don't know that you look in the mirror or think of yourself and say that I, just as who I am, not my learning, not my show, not my false self, not my glamour, not my glitz, not my art knowledge, not my whatever, not my verbal skills, not my humour.
That you just look at yourself and say...
You know, I deserve love.
I'm worthy of love. I am good and happy with myself.
Right? Well, the thing that...
Sorry about the bus.
The thing that pops up when you're saying that and the thing that's sort of bringing a tear to my eye is the thought that I don't know what I am without that.
Well, sure. Well, sure.
But you do know.
You do know who you are without that.
And we've seen that. Because when that stuff gets taken away, we see what comes out, right?
Right. What do we see?
Like howling, anger, and rage, and all bad things.
Well, I don't think that what you do is howling anger and rage.
That's not how I've experienced it myself.
Because anger is actually not that uncomfortable to be around.
Okay. Right.
I mean, I've had podcasts where I've been angry, and a few people have...
Written to sort of say, that freaked me out or that was alarming or whatever.
But very few people.
But I think for the most part, it doesn't particularly trouble people in that way.
Yes, you're right. So, the way that I've experienced this, what you call the howling rage or whatever, I experience it just as bullying.
And to me, it is a strategy that you use...
To achieve something or to avoid something, but I don't think it's some sort of innate howler monkey that lives in your chest, right?
It's just that you have a strategy called bullying that works in some way.
Right. And somebody really needs to mute.
Yeah, I'll look for that.
Right, so to me, there's feelings that we have that are genuine, right?
And then there are feelings that we have that are kind of false self and manipulative, right?
So, you know, we've all had the parents – well, not all, but a lot of us have had the parents who they look like it is – Brian, can you mute your mic?
If you're not talking, if you could mute your mics, that'd be great.
Thanks. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just trying to figure out how to do it.
I'm just having some problems. It's just down by the call and hang up to the left-hand side.
this little mic with a slash through it?
Not yet.
I might have an older version of Skype.
Okay, well, I'm sorry. I'm going to have to drop you up because I've got to keep going with this.
We can try that another time. Okay, I understand.
So, you know, we've all had those parents who are manipulative and they cry and so on, right?
But it's not a genuine emotion, right?
Right. And when your temper kind of flares up, I experience it as specifically intimidating, which means it's not...
Alright, okay, so yeah, sorry, we'll try again.
We have these parents who have these manipulative emotions, and again, I'm not saying any of this is particularly conscious on your part, I don't know, but when you have that emotion, it is...
So when emotions are being expressed, in my experience, when emotions are being expressed in a genuine manner, then they tend to move other people, right?
So when I'm really sad about something, you know, no tears for the writer, no tears for the reader, right?
When I'm really sad about something, then if I'm being honest about what I'm sad about, then it moves other people.
And if I'm not being honest about what I'm sad about or angry about, then other people don't experience that emotion.
They experience feelings of irritation or distance or dissociation or whatever, right?
And when you get angry, your voice kind of flips over to an intimidating tone and you get very cold, right?
And it's like – suddenly it's like cage match to the death, right?
And that can happen very quickly for you, right?
Yes.
Thank you.
And it's not a genuine emotion.
And so, for instance, I mean, the first time that it happened between you and I, when you thought that I was, I think, disrespecting Nate in a Sunday call, it also tends not to be specific to the situation at hand, right? So, if you get very angry and belligerent, And it's not something that's coming out of the situation.
In other words, if a guard tells you to stand back from a painting, That's not somebody who's coming at you with a knife, right?
Or who is calling you some god-awful name or something like that or threatening you or stealing your purse, right?
That's a relatively minor thing.
Or someone who's disagreeing with you about the authenticity of a particular piece of art or whatever it was that you thought that I was doing a couple of weeks ago.
The feeling of belligerence that you feel does not come out of the situation and also is not being honestly expressed.
Because under anger, under that kind of anger, under that kind of bullying, is always what?
Yeah, probably just...
I know for me it is oftentimes like fear, but I'm not sure what you were thinking of.
Well, there certainly is fear, and just if people could hold off giving the answer, because I'm just trying to ask her, and it doesn't help if...
Because what we don't feel, we reproduce in other people, right?
Right. So if I feel depressed and I don't own the feeling and own the whatever, what happens is I go around complaining, right?
And other people end up feeling depressed, right?
Right. And we had an example with the magnificent Greg the flamethrower in the chat room the other day where he was feeling tense and frustrated and so came in basically saying, you know, hope is a dear, we should drive over and back over and everybody else started feeling tense and frustrated and anxious, right? Right.
Because he wasn't saying, this is what I feel and I don't know why, right?
I should write a book about that.
Anyway... So, what we don't experience ourselves, we end up recreating in other people, right?
Right. And so, the reason that we know that there's fear at the root of the bully's emotional makeup, and I'm not saying that you're a bully, I'm just talking about in that, in that moment, right?
In that strategy, right?
Because I'm not saying you're a bully, I'm just, we're talking about that strategy, that moment, that persona.
So, What happens is you create fear in other people, right?
Right. And it's scary, right?
Your bullying is scary, and that's to your credit, because if it wasn't scary, you would be bad at something, and it's good to be good at something, right?
Just kidding. But if you don't feel the fear, then you're going to recreate that fear in other people, right?
Right. It's got to go somewhere.
It's got to be expressed somehow.
So, the way that I see it is that, obviously, you do have a lot of abilities.
You have a lot of shiny goodies that the false self can use as glitter, right?
Oh, yes. I mean, it's very obvious to me that you're very intelligent and very interested in philosophy, but But I can't, and this could be totally unjust, but I'm just sort of trying to think.
I can't think of a time where you have brought up a serious philosophical concern in the chat room, right?
Me neither. Now, what does happen is you come in and you use your wit and your verbal acuity and it kind of scatters whatever is going on, right?
Yes. And to me, that's completely unworthy of your considerable intellectual abilities.
But for you, it's hard.
What it is, is a place where you can come in and you can keep things light and you can keep things frothy.
And you kind of do that in a way that is...
Aggressive is not quite the right word.
But it's like, if a serious conversation does come up...
You have a tendency to not want to let it continue, right?
The thought that pops into my mind is I want it to continue, but whenever those conversations go on, I have this thing, like, this thought pops up in the I have this thing, like, this thought pops up in the back of my mind, like, I can't contribute to I don't know what to say.
So I kind of, well, I try to shift the conversation to a ground where I'm more comfortable.
Right, and I totally understand that, and I'm saying that that's completely unworthy not only of your intellectual abilities, but of your rather large heart, right?
Right. Because the chat room clearly should not be there for you to shine, and it should not be there for me to shine, but it should be there for us to exchange ideas.
And sometimes those ideas are giddy jokes and so on, but I've just noticed that in the chat room, when you come in, things kind of scatter, right?
And Lord knows that Nate falls into that trap a lot, right?
I've talked to him about that, right?
Which is, it kind of fragments, right?
And it goes into a kind of jokey thing, if that makes sense.
Right. I find this when I try to have one-on-one conversations with other people, and if they bring up a problem to me or something that they want help with, it's like, I really want to help them, but it's like, I just don't know what to say.
I have no idea.
Well, I don't think it's true that you don't know what to say, but the problem is that you come in with a persona to the chat room, right?
Right. Like, did anybody know that you had problems with motivation over the past week or two?
I doubt it. Well, I'm asking.
You can type it into the chat window if you've seen Charlotte in the chat window and had any idea that she was going through some significant personal challenges.
Yeah, she's fun.
She's spirited.
She's engaging.
She's upbeat.
She's a little scattered, a little unfocused, and so on, right?
But no one had any idea, right?
Yeah. So, you know, with all due respect to your true self, and with not so much due respect to your false self, you're kind of talking a lot of crap over the last couple of weeks, right?
Pretty much. And this all started, of course, about the exams, right?
Yes. And where you had just decided to ditch all of your exams and bomb yourself out of school without talking to anyone at all about this massive decision.
And, of course, because you're not in contact with your family, there's not a lot of people for you to talk to about this stuff, right?
Yes. So...
And no one had any...
We were all, like, jaws hit the ground, like, you know, spray coming off the top of Old Faithful, right?
Because nobody knew. Yeah, I didn't...
Sorry, go ahead. Well, I was just going to say until you said it tonight, I didn't make that connection that, you know...
You know, I really hate buses.
I didn't make the connection that I didn't tell anyone about my significant problems then, and I'm still doing the same thing, you know?
Going things kind of alone.
No, it hasn't. No, but see, this is the thing, Charlotte, is that you're not going through things alone, right?
This is the part that makes it complicated.
Because if you were going through things alone, right?
You wouldn't be in the chat room, right?
Right. So what happens is you come in and you hide.
Right. It's still saying the same thing to you guys that it was saying before, obviously.
Sorry, what's it? It being that, you know, I don't...
I'm not sure if it's you guys or me that I don't trust enough to sort of drop the persona.
I mean, because the persona is fundamentally a shield, right?
And why should I need a shield or a shiny mirror to show back to my friends?
Well, sure, but I mean, that's not what I want.
I mean, just as one human being to another, you know, as we struggle through this entirely challenging conversation of trying to build up some kind of new philosophy, I don't want somebody who's going to put on a Punch and Judy show every time I'm around.
Yeah, and I've been in opposition to what I want to.
I mean, I don't want to have to put one on, frankly.
Well, but you do, right? I mean, because you do.
I do. I mean, that's how we have to get.
And for a day or two after the conversation about bombing out of your exams, you were more sober and more serious, which I thought was a good thing.
Right. And again, it's not like one or the other is good or bad.
It's just having the flexibility, right?
Right. And you were more sober and more reserved and more serious and so on.
And then you literally like watching you fall into, well, it's not even quicksand, like watching you, you know, holding a greasy vine on the edge of a cliff, you fall into the chasm again, right?
And then you feel compelled to come and distract, right?
See, that's the problem. If you didn't come, it wouldn't be distracting, but you come and distract, right?
Right. Right. And that's not good for you.
It's not good for the community as a whole, which is not that important, but it's not good for you, right?
Right. Because it gives you an out, right?
It gives you an out, which is to say, I can pretend to socialize, right?
So you kind of get like, it's like I'm socializing, right?
But I'm not actually socializing.
Whereas if you said to yourself, well, I'm not going to go and be false with people, right?
Then you wouldn't have that as an option, right?
Right. And then if you came to the chat window or whatever, I don't know what other things that you do, post on the board or whatever...
And we do see that.
Again, I'm not saying it's totally constant or whatever, right?
But if you said, well, I'm going to come and be honest with people, and if I need help, I'm going to ask for help, and so on, right?
And if people are jerks to me, then I'm going to live with it.
And if I don't want to talk about it on the board, then I'll talk about it in emails or IMs or other conversations or whatever, right?
And if I genuinely am feeling happy, then I can come in and I can be giddy and so on, right?
But if it's a fixed thing, if it becomes a persona, if it becomes something that separates you from everyone else, right?
Right. I mean, because obviously when I go into the chat room with the, I don't know, I guess the expectation or the desire to appear, you know, brilliant and gay and intelligent, I mean, that's kind of, I mean, it's keeping everybody out, but it's also, like, distracting them, so...
Well, it's hard.
Everybody gets that there's a false self thing going on deep down.
So, it puts everybody else on guard.
To me, it's very disruptive.
I mean, I know that you're bombing out of school, and by that I don't mean just for those who don't know.
This has nothing to do with any lack of intelligence or studying, but the wind went out of your sails, so to speak, with regards to school, right?
I know that you're bombing out of school.
Lots of other people do. I know that you're going through this incredibly wrenching transition.
I sure know that you and I had a semi-meltdown a couple of weeks ago.
And, you know, on Teflon Charlotte, no marks appear, right?
Right. So, it's kind of disruptive to people because they know that you're going through a lot of problems, but then you're just, you know, gay witty banter from here to eternity, right? Right.
So, it doesn't...
of staying rooted within themselves, if that makes sense.
And most importantly, you, right?
What the hell does it care about?
It doesn't matter about people in the chat room, but for you, it doesn't help you stay particularly rooted within yourself, right?
Right.
Yeah, I mean, that persona, I mean, it kind of, it takes over.
It Because, I mean, if you asked me while I was keeping it witty in the chatroom, I would say, oh, no, no, no, I'm just happy.
What? No, nothing, nothing, nothing going on.
No, I'm just feeling happy.
Right, right. But you're having trouble getting out of bed, right?
Right, exactly.
And I can tell you that it also, you know, the happy, the quote happy witty Charlotte is also building a case which lets her get angry during this.
There's danger in what you're doing.
At least that's how I experience it.
And the danger that I experience Charlotte is something like this.
That Charlotte is in there and is facing some huge wrenching and difficult transitions in her life.
And she's keeping everyone six million miles away with this witty banter, right?
While her life is, I don't want to say falling apart, that's too dramatic, but is tough, right?
Right. And what I get...
Is some black figure in the background taking notes and saying, well, I'm around all these people who claim that they care about me.
And nobody's helping me.
Right. That's exactly what I thought when you said that.
I mean, because the, you know, one of the things I said to you was, well, you know that I have all these problems and you're just feeding into them.
Well, it's not you that's feeding into them, obviously.
Well, there is also a threat insofar as I believe, and other people can tell me if they don't feel that this is the case, of course, or this is my experience.
First of all, I didn't want to put you in a position where you were going to get angry at me again, because then that would be it, right?
For me, at least. So, I did not feel comfortable in the chat window saying to you, either in a whisper or directly or in any other form, saying to you, I don't get what you're doing here.
Like, I don't know why there's this gay witty banter thing going on when I know that your life is going through some serious challenges at the moment.
And why did I not want to do that?
Because historical evidence said, oh no, she's going to get really mad at me.
It's just going to be the last time.
Right, so it's like all roads lead to bullying, right?
So if I go along with the witty banter thing, then the black figure in the background is marking down all of these things where I'm just not helping, right?
And if I say this witty banter is a false front and things aren't going that well and you should be more honest in the community, then I get, you know, you come at me full force, right?
Right. That's a possible situation.
Yeah, it's a no-win situation.
All roads lead to rage, right?
Yes. And you know that one from your childhood, right?
No matter what you do, no matter what you do.
Right. Even if I, yeah, whether I do what I like to do or whether I do what they tell me they want me to do, in the end, it's still going to be, you know, scream fest here to eternity.
Yeah, for sure. For sure.
No matter what happens, right?
And I certainly, I find it a little tougher.
My mother would have this giddy side of her as well, right?
And it would be kind of grating after a while.
And then if I would say, you know, Mom, I think you need to calm down.
It's like, I'm just having fun.
What's your problem, right? Right.
You know, it's that giddy, like they keep going up at helium balloon and you know it's going to pop, right?
Right. Yeah, my mother was the same way.
And, you know, after a while, it's like, oh, God, here we go again.
Let me run for the hills, please.
Well, and sometimes you would just provoke it, right?
Because it's like, let's just get this thing over with, right?
Right, exactly. I'll just shoot the balloon before it goes too high and just take my lumps, right?
Right, exactly.
And you don't want to be creating that for people, right?
Definitely not.
Yeah, I'm just...
I'm, like, in equal measures, just really sad and really frightened right now.
Sure, and when did that feeling start to come up for you?
When you realized just what a long, horrible speech it was going to be for me?
Is that when you began to feel it?
No, the fright has been since we...
Since basically the conversation started...
The sadness has been kind of on and off, but it got like really more profound when you mentioned just, you know, kind of shooting the balloon and you don't want to do this.
You don't want to engender that feeling in people.
And that was just like a wave of sadness because I really don't, you know, I hate when people do it to me and I hated that feeling when I was younger and that's not what I want for my life, you know? That's not what I want my friends to feel around me.
Yeah, for sure. And it's, I mean, unless you work to change it, it's not going to change, right?
I mean, we are incredibly inert personality-wise, all of us.
And it is like shifting a mountain with your bare shoulder, but it is something that is going to follow you through life if you don't grapple it, right?
Right. Yeah, and the thought that comes up is, but I don't know how to.
But, of course, I do.
Well, here's, I mean, this is the thing, right?
If you know how to make a situation, you automatically know how to unmake it.
This is the horrible thing about when we're manipulative, and I do it too, right?
I mean, I'm always on guard, right?
But as far as this goes, because I want to make sure I keep things as clean and clear as possible in my communications, but...
If you know how to engineer, and again I'm not saying consciously, but if you know how to engineer the situation where people are damned if they do and damned if they don't, that you'll get angry at them for not caring if they don't call you on stuff, but you'll get even more angry at them for interrupting your fun if they do.
If you know how to create that incredibly complex trap, you absolutely know how to disarm it, right?
The guy who makes the trap knows how to disarm it.
Yes.
Yeah, I just I started thinking of of mother.
Just I mean, obviously, you know, she she did this to me all through my childhood.
And it's just like I tell myself, well, I mean, she this is just how she was.
I mean, she didn't know any better.
She didn't know how not to do this.
Yeah, she did. I mean, the more you sympathize with your mother, the more you'll become your mother.
This is just one of the awful things in life and in psychology.
And there may be a time when you can have some more sympathy for your mother, but that time is a long way in the future.
Right. I was curious about when you said that, about having some sort of empathy for your mother, I was like, but, you know, sputtering.
Well, sure, but the interesting thing is that, well, yeah, but I defood almost 10 years ago, right?
Right. So it's quite a bit different for me.
You know, 10 years afterwards...
And after years of therapy and all the work that I've done, you can gain some – and it doesn't mean that my anger towards my mother is not perfectly valid.
It's just you get a bit of a broader perspective when you get older and blah, blah.
I don't want to bore you with all of the middle-aged crap, right?
But the interesting thing is that when we talk about anger, in a sense, you defend your mother.
And then when we talk about understanding, you attack your mother, right?
Right. And that's just the challenge that you face.
There's her story about why she did what she did, which was that her life was difficult and you were bad.
You were disobedient and her life was tough.
That's the same story all the time.
Right. And that's her story and so on.
But you have your own direct personal history.
And when you experience the The pain and the anger and the fear that you experienced as a child, we don't experience fear and sympathy simultaneously, right?
Right. I mean, that's like going up and down at the same time, right?
It just doesn't happen, right?
It's like feeling rage and tenderness at the same time, right?
I mean, it just can't happen, right?
Yeah, it's not possible.
And that doesn't mean that we can't feel both over time and so on, but just not at the same time, right?
Right. So, I mean, in terms of undoing the trap, I mean, you know exactly what to do, which is to stop relying on your shiny gifts, right?
Right.
To resist the temptation to banter, right?
Yeah.
And also, on the other side, to resist the temptation to kind of, I mean, I'm not saying you would, but some people do, right?
They come in and say, you know, they come into the chat room and say, sigh, oh, what a terrible day, blah, blah, blah, right?
Right. And then people say, well, what's up?
It's like, oh, there's this, there's that, where it just becomes like a pity party, right?
Right. You know, when you said that, that same thing popped up in my mind.
But what do I do instead?
Right. Right.
Right. Well, you are yourself instead.
You are genuine instead.
And when you are genuine, Charlotte, you get the greatest gift of all.
Which is what you said earlier, I desperately want to help people, but I don't know what to say.
Well, when you are yourself, you know exactly what to say to help the most, to help other people the most, and that is the greatest joy.
That makes sense.
Something just popped up in my mind.
I mean, if this persona disconnects me from myself, then obviously I'm not going to be able to connect with anybody else either.
I mean, I guess it's myself that I have to connect with first.
Yeah, you can't help somebody without empathy, right?
You can't. And you can't have empathy unless you have empathy with yourself.
Right. Right. It's kind of hard to empathize with a shiny mirror.
Well, you know, you don't go to the comedian and ask for a hug, right?
Right. Because the comedian, you know, it's like the way people don't sit in the front row of the comedy place, right?
Because I'm going to pick on them, right?
Right. And this is just, why would you do it, right?
What's on the other side of going through the tension and anxiety of not being banter girl, right?
And what's on the other side is A, real connection with people.
B, you can genuinely be helped and not be so alone.
And the third thing is that you will actually connect to others and really be able to help them where they need it.
Yeah. I mean, I've told myself for the longest time, you know, this is what I actually want.
Well, I mean, your language skills, and say you've got a big heart, and that's why I've hung on to this.
But, I mean, your language skills, you're obviously very intelligent, and I think you have a great deal of innate empathy.
Because otherwise, your reaction formation wouldn't be so strong, right?
The height of the mountain is the depth of the valley, right?
Geologically and psychologically speaking.
The way that we know that you have an enormous amount of empathy is the lengths that you go to hide it.
Right. Yeah, it really makes me...
It's like I'm feeling right now almost this feeling of devastation that I haven't been able to express that or actually use that on anybody.
If there's something that I want to be known for, I don't want to be known for the fact that I read four languages and know all about art and yada yada yada.
That's great, you know, whatever.
But if I wanted to be known for something, it's like, hey, you know, Charlotte's someone that you can go to for help.
Or, you know, she's really empathetic or something like that.
Something, like, real.
Not just a shiny accomplishment.
Right, right.
Because, you know, frankly...
People don't care that much about shiny accomplishments.
I mean, who the hell remembers who won the Oscar in 1947, right?
Right. I mean, as far as the people who stay in people's minds and hearts, it's not the people who can hit the high notes, and it's not the people who can run the fastest.
Because those are just moments.
Let's just show. It's the degree to which we can understand and connect with each other.
That's E.M. Foster, right? Only connect.
It's the degree to which we can empathize.
Now, your danger is going to be that you're going to want to replace entertainment girl with Nurse Charlotte, right?
Yeah. I now have value if I help people.
Right. Exactly.
But that's the exact same thing.
Well, it's your secondary defense, right?
Yeah. But the way that you help people, and this is, you know, tricks of the trade, right?
But the way that you help people is you are connected to yourself.
You are at peace with and accepting of yourself.
And you show people what a stable and rooted personality looks like.
Right? Before anything else, before you open your mouth...
Before you ask them a question, before they say anything, you try to show them what a stable and rooted personality looks like, which is not there for show, it's not there for manipulation, it's not there for effect, it's just there.
Right. Like a beautiful sunset isn't showing off, right?
Right, it is.
It's just there, right?
And if it was showing off, we wouldn't really enjoy looking at it, right?
Right.
If it was doing some funky dance move and bouncing all over the place, I mean, it would be not that much fun to look at.
It is the serenity and the beauty of something without manipulation, without effect, without narcissism, without neediness, without, you know, prop me up, you know, all of that stuff that people do all the time.
Prop me up. Be impressed by me.
Show me that I'm good. Show me that I'm right.
And we see this all the time in the chat room.
The people who come in and they're wrong and they won't admit it.
They change the story.
They flip around. And it's like Don't do that to others and don't do that to yourself, right?
Because isn't it all obvious to everyone all the time what's going on with people?
I mean, is there really any doubt?
Sorry, Charlotte, go ahead. Well, yeah.
I mean, it's obvious when they're wrong, and it's more obvious when they're wrong and they won't admit it.
But frankly, I'd be more impressed with someone, not if they're right.
I mean, if they're right, that's great.
But I'm more impressed with people who are wrong and admit it, frankly.
Oh, and don't we feel so relaxed around those people?
Because isn't that the fundamental thing that we hate so much around the world?
I'm speaking more for myself here.
The thing that I hate the most is that people just don't admit that they're wrong.
And when they don't admit that they're wrong, they're really dangerous to be around, right?
Right. Absolutely.
Because that means they have to control you, they have to manipulate you, they have to be in charge, they have to retain their status, they have to start hiding from you, they've got to keep propping up this building that keeps falling over.
It's exhausting and debilitating and dangerous to be around people who are like that.
Yes. Yes.
And it is a...
To me, that's the beauty of having a method rather than any conclusions.
Anybody who wants to wage war with us, it's like taking a sword to a river.
Go for it, right? I mean, take a sword to a statue, maybe you can do some damage.
Take a sword to a river, it's like, go for it, right?
Tie yourself out if you want, right?
That's what we see when people come and do the UPB thing and they do the free will thing.
It's like, tie yourself out, right?
But there's not a conclusion here that you can overturn.
There's only a methodology.
Right. There's no dogma.
There's only science and reason and evidence.
Right. Right. That makes a lot of sense.
And that's how we help people, I think, most fundamentally.
Is we show them what it is to be relaxed and confident first and foremost, and to have spontaneity and not to be locked into, I am now a serious philosopher dude, or I am a perpetually giddy philosopher guy or whatever, or a giddy entertainment guy.
But to have the flexibility and the sensitivity to be serious or funny or whatever, but...
To just know that we don't have anything to prove, we don't have anyone to impress.
We can trust our feelings.
When that's around, and we're also not afraid to take up arms if necessary, right?
Again, we have that standard or that commitment.
But I think that's how we help people, just by being that way ourselves.
And then we don't actually have to try to help people at all.
Yeah. I'm making a lot of connections.
This is really helpful.
Yeah. I was just going to say that, you know, for me, helping people has always been about, like...
From, you know, 12 on, you know, helping people is love me, love me, love me, love me.
You know, see how wise I am.
See how wonderful I am.
Look, I'm helping you.
You are grateful to me.
You are grateful to me.
It hasn't actually been about helping them.
It's been about, like, propping me up, which is obviously, like, anti-helpful to the person that I'm trying to help.
Well, sure. It's also what I talked about earlier, which is the status thing, right?
Like, if you try to help somebody from the standpoint of being superior, it just won't work.
Right. I mean, you have – you can tell me if – I certainly had no idea that you wanted to talk about this tonight.
I didn't have a huge amount prepared.
If anything, I don't have any lists or anything.
But I think that when I talk to you, as I try to always talk with the people that are interested in my perspective or whatever – It is not a status thing for me.
I am not in any way, shape, or form trying to be superior to people.
I always try to say how, you know, talk about the positive things that they bring to the table, which of course with you is considerable, as it is with everyone.
And it's not a status thing for me, right?
At least I don't think that I have tried to end you up in a position where you would feel put down or humiliated.
No, not at all.
And I don't actually feel...
Because, you know, when people help you because they want you to be grateful, there's like this empty feeling you get.
Like, I mean, they're someone that you have to fill up.
I've never gotten that with you either, or with anyone who's actually been in it, or has actually been connected with themselves and helping me from that and not from this desire for status.
Right, right, right.
I mean, that would be like a doctor coming in and saying, look how healthy I am.
Well, that's great, but I'm here to see you because I'm not at the moment.
So, I mean, that would be kind of dickish on the part of the doctor, right?
Look, I can bench press my own desk.
Right. Yeah, I don't really care about you, buddy.
I'm sick. Right.
Right, right, right.
So, I mean, your life obviously has to some degree fallen apart.
And by that, what I mean is that your life as a foundation or a fundamental thing, I'm not saying that has fallen apart.
But what I mean is that the road that you were on, you bailed, right?
Right. I mean, Thelma's going over the cliff in the car, but Louise is not, right?
She rolled out in the dirt and hid in the bushes.
Right. Right.
Yeah, what I'd started building on that foundation, I think, needs to go.
But for the rest of it, I mean, hopefully I can...
I keep telling myself the metaphor that I use and...
This is just my being an intellectual ass again.
But I keep telling myself that I want my soul to be like the Alhambra.
Look that up on Wikipedia.
It's a really beautiful palace in Grenada.
And not like some sort of shack in the woods, which is what I think I was building towards myself.
I am suspicious of a palace, to be honest with you.
Because, again, that's something for show, right?
Right. And it's also not alive, right?
Right. Yeah, the idea that I have in my mind is like this empty courtyard with a fountain in the middle of it.
But do I really want an empty courtyard?
No. Yeah, I mean, what are you going to sell?
I think so. You know, come for the tour of the empty soul that is pretty, right?
I mean, I don't... You may...
That seems to me kind of like show.
Now, again, I don't know. Maybe it's a place of serene beauty, and you can certainly post the link.
It would be interesting to have a look at it.
But... The other thing, too, is that your aggressive side is not something that you should abandon as a complete enemy, right?
I mean, aggression or assertiveness is useful.
It is helpful for sure.
It's not good as a strategy to bully, but I think that you are too tempestuous in your nature to be a serene...
You know, if the fountain is a randomly firing water cannon, and if you could install that, then perhaps that might be a little closer to some of your tempestuous, the tempestuous side of your nature.
Damn! Something like that, you know, I just, I can't see a lot of trickling water, you know, little birds and so on, right?
I mean, you're more Amazonian than that in my experience, which is...
Can I get trickling in birds or should I give that up?
Well, I mean, as long as there are, I don't know, condors around to make it interesting or something like that.
Yeah, Mother always called me Buzzard.
I don't think I want any Buzzards around.
No, Buzzards would not be good, right?
But... I don't know.
I mean, everybody has their images of themselves and so on.
I mean, to me, I'm just like, I don't know, like a jungle that I'm just trying to map.
To me, there's a lot of...
in my sort of image of myself, and this is just mine, but it's more like a jungle that I'm leading people through, hoping that we can figure out what the hell is going on.
And it's sort of very fertile and somewhat primitive, but very balanced and sophisticated in its ecosystem and so on.
And everyone has their sort of images of it and so on, but I would certainly for yourself not, or at least maybe be hesitant towards stuff that is empty and showy.
Oh yeah, I see the picture.
I mean, it's definitely beautiful, but no people there, right?
Yeah, Stephen actually said what I was thinking about after you mentioned that the Alhambra was for show.
He said, wouldn't you rather have a full shack than an empty courtyard?
And that's exactly what I thought.
Or a love shack. When you said that.
Not a love shack, but...
FDR, you know what FDR is?
It's constantly that scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail where the little gay British guy is just about to sing.
Now stop that! Right, right.
Well... No.
Um... I did want to ask you, because I've obviously had trouble expressing emotions and things in the past and making other people feel my stuff.
Have you been getting that from me at all, or...?
Well, I just know that you've been going back to old tricks and that you were either going to sort it out or you weren't.
But for me, that was up to you.
But I also, of course, I wasn't aware of any other conversations you may be having on the side, but I certainly knew just based on what I was seeing in the chat room that you had these flashes, which were great, you know, and you had one even today talking about someone.
You were talking to someone and, you know, we were concerned and so on, but...
You know, I definitely saw this, you know, show Charlotte, so to speak.
You know, Charlotte, the traveling roadshow.
I definitely saw that pretty continually over the last few weeks.
And, of course, I knew that you were going through a lot of problems, but I certainly haven't seen any bully flare-ups, which is great.
Well, I meant, like, more during this conversation, like, right now.
Oh, sorry. Back to April.
Yeah. I mean, I think that you've done magnificently in this conversation, if that helps.
I mean, I wasn't particularly concerned because I didn't think that you would bring it up if you weren't ready for it, and we did check at the beginning, but no, I think it's great.
I think it's great. The challenge, of course, is not tonight, but tomorrow, right?
Right, exactly.
Well, given past experience, the day after tomorrow.
The day after tomorrow, yeah.
But at some point, right, the temptations of distraction will recur.
And the jokey stuff, I mean, it's a way to avoid tension, fear and anger within yourself.
And it is very tempting.
And it's perfectly okay to not know what to say, right?
Because what does RTR suggest when you don't know what to say?
Go with the feeling.
And do what? Just say it.
I mean, that's something that I have trouble saying is, look, man, I don't know what to say here, or something like that.
Yeah, I don't know much about the history of your etymology, of your language.
I don't know where this hippie stuff comes in.
I don't know where you get to say, look, man.
For a woman who's very well-educated and very sophisticated, it just strikes me as kind of jarring.
I'm sorry, that's one of my aunts, and the British slang circa 1973 comes from my aunt's boyfriend, who looks like you, but 25 pounds thinner.
It's very disconcerting.
Wow, what a lollipop. But...
Yeah, that's just, I mean, to me, that's just funny, right?
I mean, in the same, and you'll get more used to this when you get the sense of how you look to others.
I mean, I have the teeth gritting joy of hearing how I sound all the time as I'm working through all of this sort of stuff in the audio feeds and so on.
But it is just getting used to how you sound from outside and to make sure that you have your own language, right?
That there's the stuff that works for you.
But in particular, and you'll hear this when you hear this again, there are a few times where this look man comes up, right?
And it's just kind of disconcerting.
I don't know. It's like if I suddenly started breaking into a Rastafarian chant for no reason.
It just seems a little... A little odd, or at least culturally not well-rooted, if that makes sense.
I'll have to make myself a slow chart.
Right. And the other thing too, Charlotte, and this again, with all due respect and affection, you know, the condescending side that you say that you've inherited from your mom?
Yeah. You know, the little lamb stuff?
Yes. I mean, you're 21, is that right?
22. 22, right.
I mean, I don't pull rank very often.
I really don't, because I'm somewhere between 12 and 900.
But for people who are older, and this is, again, maybe you didn't have any of this when you were growing up, and I'm sure you didn't, right?
But when you see a 22-year-old woman being condescending, it's...
It's odd to see, if that makes any sense.
I don't think odd is quite the word.
Yes, I see.
But, and again, I know that it's a habit or a history that you have, but...
And I know this is shocking, but I certainly do remember what it is like to be 22.
And Lord knows, the know-it-all disease strikes me more often than it should.
But you don't want to lay down a bunch of behaviors for which there are permanent records in the chatroom, which when you're 40 or 30, you look back and go...
Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking about your future self here.
That's what I'm really thinking about, right?
So you don't want to be looking back and going like, wow, I can't believe I ever wore that muscled t-shirt with the British flag on it and went to a disco.
Actually, that was my brother. But I can't believe I ever learned how to moonwalk and I can't believe I condescended to people twice my age when I was 22 and still had some ways to go in terms of wisdom.
Yeah, you never got into the leather vest wearing, did you?
Is that your best?
I'll tell you, this is just one little funny story.
My brother makes me look like, I don't know, ultimate macho guy.
And I'm fairly quiffy to begin with.
And when we were in business together, we went down to do a lot of business in the South.
My brother took to wearing this little leather waistcoat and he actually dyed his hair blonde.
And he's got a fairly tumoresque British pompadour.
And we would share a room together because we were traveling together.
It was a startup and we didn't have a lot of money and we would travel together.
So he'd almost sort of sidle up in the south.
In the south, I thought, for God, we're going to shut in our bed, right?
And he would sidle up to the...
To the person behind the counter, a guy behind the counter, you know, was sitting there chewing out 16 tobaccos at once and, you know, oh, we'd like a room together, please, my good man.
It's just like, oh, man, we're going to get killed.
And then he came down and the guy who ended up in the God of Atheists was actually a real guy, the really great New England salesman.
And my brother, we came down, we were having dinner, a little leather waistcoat on, and his hyper-blonde Billy Idol pompadour.
And, you know, this salesman was like, so, what the hell's up with your hair?
Right? And he said, and my brother was like, oh, yes, you know, I can't believe it.
I went to my stylist and, oh, he just went overboard with the, you know, and he's like, yeah, I think that's your first problem there.
Most of us would call him a barber.
Very nice.
Good God. It's a fascinating person to travel with, for sure.
Yeah, sometimes I look back on things that I've said in the chat room like, eww, sorry.
Yeah, if I'm doing it now, I can only imagine, you know, 40.
Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, and I'm absolutely positive.
I mean, because I've gone out on so many limbs, right?
So far, most of them have held.
But, you know, I'm always trying to be aware of like, okay, well, someone's going to – my kids may hear this or someone's going to hear this in the future and it's like, be careful, right?
That's all I'm saying, right?
Because I know it's tempting and so on, but it – Especially to those of us who know the difference between your public persona and what's going on in your life, it is a challenge at times.
And of course, that's part of the trap, right?
Which is to call you on the condescension and then, you know, welcome to, you know, not good Charlotte, but the other one.
Yes, what fresh hell is this?
It's like, you know, it's like, oh, I've stepped on the landmine, I heard the click.
What do I do now? Right?
Right. Yeah, I noticed that there's one person in particular that I'll send an email to.
I send him the post that I'm going to make on my blog sometimes, and it's like, am I just completely freaking off base here?
And then he replies, and then I think in my mind, God damn it, you bastard!
Right, right.
And thinking it in your mind is a good thing.
Yeah, typing it back to him in an email, not so much.
Well, I mean, it was just part of, I mean, I think that the reason you did it with me was you just wanted someone who wasn't going to fall for it, right?
Right. I mean, you needed to run up against somebody who was neither going to be intimidated, nor frightened, nor reject you out of hand, right?
Yes, which is why I keep saying thank you, Steph.
Sure, sure. Well, I mean, you know, the first time we have a strategy that genuinely doesn't work is when we start to become free of it, right?
Right. Absolutely.
I cannot wait to be free of this one.
Well, it's absolutely in your hands, so rather in your typing hands, right?
Right, I have to sit on them again.
Or, you know, the other option when you say, I don't know what to say is, I feel really anxious because I don't know what to say and I don't know why.
You know, this is what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling, right?
And actually get some help and maybe help them instead of climbing up.
Oh, yeah. I mean, if you're authentic in receiving help, then you absolutely will be helping others, right?
If you're open and authentic in receiving help, and this, of course, is why people are sitting here until 2 o'clock in the morning listening to you talk, right?
Which is that when you're open and vulnerable and honest about receiving help, you totally help others, right?
Yeah. I'm hoping that this is helpful to people who are around and whoever ends up hearing this.
Excellent. Okay, well, was there anything else that you wanted to talk about tonight, or have we run through enough to say to you?
I think that I have a lot of things to think about, so I think that's it for now.
Thank you, Steph, and thank you guys for being here.
You're very welcome. I'll talk to you soon.
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