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May 21, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:23:44
1072 The Breakup
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Time Text
Hi. Hey, how's it going?
Good, how are you? Not too bad.
Sorry, go ahead. So, this is your call, and whatever I can do to help, I'm more than happy to.
Why don't you get me caught up a little bit about what's going down?
Okay, so basically what's happening is I'm seriously debating breaking up with Jessie, which really scares me a lot because For the past year and a half,
he's literally been my best friend, my only confidant, and my emotional rock for the most part.
And so the fact that I'm even thinking about breaking up with him is scary to me, and then the actual act itself is completely terrifying.
So, yeah.
Okay. And now, can you tell me a little bit more about the nature of the relationship and where it is with you as far as the pluses and minuses and what your decision process is to get to this point?
Well, we've been dating for a year and a half now, and for the past about five, almost six months, it has been completely long distance.
And I haven't seen, I don't talk to him regularly.
And we've been snapping at each other because we're not seeing each other and there's a lot of frustration about all of that.
I think within the past week or so, I've really kind of zeroed in on the fact that it's not working.
We're not going to see each other anytime soon on a regular basis.
And so At that point, it kind of went, well, then why am I still with him?
If I'm feeling this way, I'm moving forward a lot with my life.
He's moving forward a lot with his life.
And the directions we're moving aren't really coinciding at this point.
That is an astonishingly diplomatic answer.
Seriously, I see UN positions in your future, no question.
And it doesn't mean that it's bad, I just mean that that is astonishingly diplomatic.
You know, moving in different directions and long distance and so on, right?
I don't understand, actually.
Okay, well, these are the few things that I've heard about him, and you can tell me how wildly inaccurate...
They all are that he is willing to be a leader intellectually insofar as he got you to deism, right?
And you were willing to trust his lead intellectually and emotionally in that way, right?
Right. On the other hand, Not so much with the other way around when it comes to your considerable emotional skills and psychological skills when it comes to looking at history, personal history, right? What do you mean by that?
Sorry. Sorry, I'm being obtuse.
I'll be more direct. I was trying to be diplomatic because I thought that's what we were doing, but okay.
No, just honesty.
Your interaction in FDR has left him entirely unimpressed, right?
Correct. That's true.
So, tell me a little bit more about that.
Well, I finally did talk to him about it all a couple weeks ago, and it came down to the fact that he refuses to admit that he's threatened by it all, but it's very obvious through talking to him that the entire concept of it threatens him.
In more ways than one.
In the way that I might be connecting with a bunch of people that he has no idea who they are, that if he does come in they might not like him.
If he does get involved that means that he's going to have to actually And what would that cost him?
I mean, the odds that...
The odds that he's going to be disliked in a philosophy show, if he's sort of open and honest, is pretty low, right?
I mean, that certainly doesn't seem to have happened much, if at all, over the past couple of years.
But what would it cost him to begin to look at his own history and his own family?
Truth is, I have no idea.
He's never...
Oh, it's so cute when people try that, isn't it?
It's so cute. Okay, try it again.
But you said honesty, right?
So honestly, of course you have no idea, right?
Right. And I mean, I think the reason that I have no idea is because there are places that we both don't let each other into.
Like, I have an emotional box inside myself that I don't let anyone see.
And he definitely has an emotional box inside of himself that he doesn't let anyone see.
And so I can guess as to what it would be like for him.
But because he and I are actually really different, I have no idea.
So... Okay.
Excellent. What I've done is I've got the Swiss babblefish in my ear.
Because, again, no criticism, right?
And I understand that you have a gentle heart this way.
But I think I'm going to just shine a light on a few things.
Because there is a cost to him for examining his past, right?
Now, there's a cost, which we all have, which is that it's painful, right?
Right. Right. So, the fact that it's painful is not why people don't do it, because it's painful for you, it's painful for me, it's painful to every FDR listener who's currently not on heroin, right?
So, there's no question that it's painful, and that is a cost that everyone goes through.
But the fact that it is painful is not the differentiator, right?
Because it's painful for everyone. So, it's got to be a cost over and above that for him.
Well, I'm saying that...
Sorry, I don't know if...
That got through. But I was saying that it would be probably over and above.
At least for me to even begin to sort of get into the emotional box that I have.
It's huge.
It's not just pain. It's a whole bunch of other things.
And I think that's what it would be like for him.
And it's not just terrifying.
It would end up Forcing us both to maybe have to change part of who we are and how we've handled everything.
And I know for him, that's just a horribly terrifying thought.
And what sort of stuff would that mean?
What sort of changes would that mean?
Well... For him, it would be everything about what he thought his history was like and everything about what...
Sorry, I'm trying to think because it's hard because he's never talked to me about this and, like, never really let me in.
And, like... Sorry, I can hear something in the background, and I think for once it's not my conscience.
Sorry, is that better?
Yes, thank you. No problem.
It's always running in my room, and I forget that it's on.
It's a stereo. But...
I don't know.
I think it would just mean that he'd have to...
Perhaps...
Change his ideas about where he came from, what his whole history was like.
Which is true for everyone.
And I'm sorry to be annoying about this, as always, right?
But I think it's really important for you to distinguish this for yourself, right?
Because... Well, we'll get to that later, but it is important for you to figure out why he's not taking your lead on this, why he's not willing to go to some place that you're willing to go to, right?
To some degree, right? Right, and truth is, honestly, I have no idea.
Okay, let's go through a couple of things that may be possible, and you can let me know whether they ring true or not.
Okay. He's evil!
No, wait, sorry, that's down the list.
Okay. So he's relying on his parents for money?
No. Okay, so he doesn't need money for school or he's scholarshiped up or he's not going or what?
He's taking a break and I actually pay the majority of the bills.
You what?
When we were living together I paid the majority of the bills.
Oh, so he's like a himbo.
Well, when we were living together, he was going to school.
Right, so he's like, you pay the bills, he goes to the gym and rubs coconut oil on himself.
I'm just going by my own daily activities, as a hint.
So I just hope that I understand this correctly.
Yeah, for the most part.
Just look pretty, and that's the job.
Okay, but where is he living now?
He's still living in the same apartment that we were living in.
I'm just not. And he's working and he's taking time off between high school and uni or wherever he's going next?
Well, he's working and he's taking a break from university at the moment.
He was enrolled when we were together and he just can't afford it right now because he's getting no financial support whatsoever.
And why is it because his parents don't have the money or is there a problem there?
His parents don't have the money and he can't apply for a loan because his credit report's bad.
And why is his credit report bad?
What's he been up to?
Well, he's been paying for himself since he was 16.
And at the age of 17, he had a moment where he said, fuck it.
And didn't really pay any of the bills that he was supposed to.
And his credit report went down the tube.
Oh, right. The risky business financial approach.
Got it. Okay. Yes.
Okay, and his parents are religious, is that right?
His family is.
His parents aren't, for the most part.
They're more agnostic-y.
More agnostic-y, right?
Yeah. They won't admit it, but they are.
Right, so it's like live as if there isn't, but if press say they might be, right?
Exactly. Okay, I understand.
And his relationship with his family is what?
He doesn't speak to his dad at all, and he has a very close relationship with his mom.
Bingo! Okay, got it.
Yeah. And tell me what you think about that.
I'm glad that he doesn't have a relationship with his dad because his dad was really the main reason in his childhood That he's probably screwed up.
And I really respect and love his mom.
She's a great person. Sometimes I question her parenting techniques just because she didn't step in.
But... I don't know.
It's up to him for the most part.
I'm sorry, what's up to him? His relationship status is up to him.
With his mom. Sorry, I just want to make sure I'm following you.
Yeah, with his mom. With his mom.
I can't be a hypocrite and say, don't ever talk to your parents, and I do.
Well, but, I mean, the issue is not whether anybody talks to their parents or not.
That's a symptom, right? Right.
I mean, nobody ever says, do this or don't do that.
The question is to get to the emotional truth of our histories, and then the decision usually becomes clearer one way or the other, right?
Yeah. And for the most part, he refuses to talk about his history, which is frustrating.
Now, you realize with his mom, you kind of entered like a lion and then petered out like a lamb, right?
Probably. Tell me a little bit.
That was one of the most rapid transitions I've ever heard from rank pet praise to...
Right? So tell me a little bit.
Because you swung from his story to your experience.
And tell me a little bit more about that.
Oh, well, um...
Personally, from what I've met of her, from what I've spoken with her, I really, really respect her, actually.
I think she's a very rational person, approaches things in an emotionally clear way, isn't afraid to speak her mind, but isn't afraid to let other people speak their minds as well.
And I respect that as a person.
As a parent, I'm...
I can't...
Ambivalent? Yes.
Okay. I don't know, because I don't know a lot of what was going on in that household, because Jessie refuses to tell me, I have yet to really make a strong opinion about her as a parent.
As a person, she's great.
As a mother figure, I have no idea.
So, what you're saying is that there's two of her?
Is that right? Like, is she cloned?
Is it an ant puppet?
I'm just trying to understand. The person-parent distinction, I'm just trying to understand that a little bit better.
Well, um...
Damn it, now I'm thinking because I lost my train of thought.
Damn it, whatever you do, don't think!
Sorry. It's not fair.
My ADD medications aren't working, and all I can think of right now are panels are fuzzy.
Okay, well, I don't mind letting you think, but I can also keep asking questions.
It's up to you. Yeah, no, keep going.
If I make a pause, it's too long, because that normally means I've totally lost my train of thought, and I'm trying to get, like, dropped back.
And what that is, is that's a point for me, and then we'll tally it up at the end.
Sorry, anyway. Um...
Okay, so when did his parents split up?
They haven't.
What? They're still together.
Yeah, they lead separate lives, but they refuse to get divorced because they both take their vows too seriously.
And so, when they said, till death do us part, apparently that includes if I don't like you anymore, I still won't divorce you, which is really weird.
Okay, sorry, I'm just getting a cool towel for my brain.
Okay, I'm just laying it down.
Oh, it's stinging.
Okay. So, do you realize that this is all kinds of crazy, right?
Yeah, I do. Okay, just so we know, just so we're aware, right?
Yeah. So they're not religious, but they have a Catholic addiction to self-destructive vows, is that right?
Yeah. Were they Catholic at some point?
Is that where the infection came in, or what is that?
Yes, they were very Catholic until maybe ten years ago, according to what his mom said.
And it's mainly because of his mom's family.
She has three priests for brothers and stuff like that.
So his whole family is very, very Catholic.
And I think that just rubbed off.
So we have a family structure called Rationality Kills Family, right?
Yeah. I mean, that's just the basic equation that would be at the root of such a virus-priest-infected family system, right?
Right. Okay.
And do his parents still live together?
Yeah. They are in the same house.
They don't share beds.
They don't share rooms.
They barely see each other.
What do you mean, barely see each other?
Like, they're mostly invisible? They're chameleons?
Well, I think they just, from what I saw, they were never in the same room at the same time.
Right. Okay. Okay.
And how does he maintain a relationship with his mom without seeing his dad?
Do they just meet outside of the home or what happens?
Yeah, for the most part they met outside of the home.
He calls her up probably about, excuse me, about once a week.
Refuses to speak to his dad at all.
Refuses to see him.
Refuses to see his dad.
and how long has that been the case for?
Right before we started to go out, so...
It's your fault. Almost two years.
I know, it is.
What did you do to him? He sounds so healthy.
Okay. I was a friend.
Right. Okay.
And how old is he now?
He is 22. 22.
Right.
Okay.
And what would his primary complaints about his father be?
That's a good question because he never speaks about his dad forever.
From what I heard way back when, the fact that his dad refuses to be emotionally available...
The fact that he would still beat him if he disobeyed him at all.
Just overall an abusive figure.
So the normal toxic elements, violence, verbal, physical, emotional abuse, all of that kind of stuff?
I don't think there was any verbal abuse.
I'm sure there was emotional.
There was absolutely, completely and totally, but you can't have physical abuse without verbal abuse, right?
Even if we only say the threat is of a beating, that is verbal abuse, right?
Oh, okay, then yes.
Then it is. Sorry, I had a different definition in my brain of verbal abuse.
Well, tell me, I don't want to override or bypass your definition, so what would your definition be?
My definition would be to verbally put someone down.
So, calling them names and stuff like that.
Right, so stupid and incompetent and clumsy and bastard or whatever, right?
Yeah, and I know there wasn't any of that.
Oh, wait, wait, wait. What do you mean you know there wasn't any of that?
He refuses to talk about his father.
How do you know for sure that in the 20 years that he knew his father, that happened not once?
Well, we used to talk about his parents when we were just friends before he cut off ties completely.
And I remember asking him about that one specifically because I was going through a similar thing in a relationship and he was trying to get me out of that.
And so I was like, well, what about your parents?
Because I was being a jackass that day.
Oh, and he said that my parents never put me down verbally?
Yeah, he said that while my parents would physically punish me, they didn't put me down verbally.
Now, did he use the phrase physically punish me?
Yeah. Okay, do you realize that's not healthy?
Yeah. Why?
I think he was being sarcastic when he said it.
Do you realize that the sarcasm is also not healthy?
Yeah. And this doesn't mean sick, right?
It just means that it's not healthy, right?
Right. I mean, if you don't get enough to eat and you're malnourished, you are sick, right?
But that doesn't mean that, you know, it's just where he's coming from and the mythology of his family, right?
It's not healthy, but that doesn't mean that he himself is sick.
This is just the coping mechanisms that exist, right?
Agreed. Okay.
So, because when he says physically punished, what he means is assaulted, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
But I think there's a level in there that he refuses to admit that to himself.
Well, there's no question of that, that he is...
Again, no question based on everything that you're saying, which I'm sure is accurate.
But there's no question that he is unable to process certain elements of his history.
Right. None at all.
Well, but you see, if we say none at all, then his evidence that there was no verbal...
Abuse is unreliable, right?
Yeah. I guess I just...
I want to trust him on that.
And it's not a matter of trust.
To me, anyway.
This is just my opinion. It's not a matter of trust.
Ali, it's a matter of can he tell the truth where he is emotionally?
It's not like he's just, ooh, you know, like some guy who tells you that the iPod is only damaged when it is in fact broken when he sells it to you.
It's nothing sleazy like that.
It's just what is the capacity of the person to tell the truth, right?
I guess I always sort of thought if you could tell me all these other things that had happened that were just like...
Absolutely horrible. Why wouldn't he just tell me that, you know?
Why wouldn't he just be open about that as well?
Well, and the reason that we would say that it may not be the case is because he's not able to tell you the things that are horrible as if they are horrible because he uses the word physical punishment rather than violent assault.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So if he's not able to process the horror and, I mean, at the age of 22, that's hard, right?
But if he's not able to process the horror and has to put it in his parents' language, there was an excess of physical punishment, right?
The physical punishment was bad as opposed to we shouldn't have assaulted our children, right?
All it means is that He's not able to process the horror at the moment, right?
Yeah, he's not. I don't think he wants to.
Well, again, sorry to be overly complex, but there is definitely a part of him that wants to, for sure.
Because if he were indifferent to process, if he just didn't at all want to process his feelings, he wouldn't be with you and he wouldn't be opposed to the FDR thing, right?
Wait, how does that be?
Well, let's say that my wife wants me to read a book, right?
And I don't have any particular interest in it, then I'm just going to read the book, right?
Because she wants me to, right?
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I guess I know.
Okay, I understand what you're saying now.
Sorry. Okay, and I'm sorry. It's a tough metaphor, but so if my wife just wants me to say, you know, I love this movie.
I want to watch this movie, right?
And I'm like, well, I'm indifferent to the movie.
Then I'll just go and watch the movie.
Why? Because it's neutral to me, but there's plus 10 marriage points for making my wife happy, right?
Right. So wherever there's plus points for happiness, that's what we'll do, right?
Right. Right. Whereas if I say no to her, she's going to feel hurt, she's going to feel rejected, and for the sake of neutrality, I've got minus 50 marriage points, right?
Right. So it's just easier to just go and do it.
Well, it's not easier.
It's more positive. Right.
I mean, there'll be times where I'll sort of inflict minus 50 points to get 100 points plus later, right?
If I have to confront my wife on something or whatever.
But if he genuinely was neutral, then he just would do it, right?
Would go listen to some podcasts or whatever and so on, right?
Right. So he has to be ambivalent about it, right?
Right. Because he also has said, it's fine for you, but not for me, right?
Yeah. It's something that you're into, you know, like, I don't know, third eye blind or something.
It's something that you're into, but it doesn't do that for me, right?
Right. Okay.
So clearly he's claiming neutrality, not pure negativity, right?
If you said, I'm going to stick my finger in a pencil sharpener and grind, he would say, I'm not going to let you do that, right?
Right. Right. So he can't claim negativity.
He's claiming neutrality, right?
But if he were genuinely neutral, then he would listen to the, quote, Third Eye Blind CD, right?
Yeah. Or the Third Eye Open CD of FDR, right?
Right. So it just means that he's ambivalent about it, right?
Mm-hmm. So it's not true that he doesn't want to deal with it.
He desperately does want to deal with it, but there is a very high price for dealing with it for him.
And so what? He just doesn't want to deal with the price?
Well, let's wait for the summary judgment for just a sec until we figure out a few more of the motives.
But, I mean, I have a sense of what the price is.
And if anybody else wants to type in the chat window, I can read it from there.
Or you can take a stab at it if you like as well.
The price that we pay for discovering the truth is always illusion, right?
No. What do you mean?
Well, when we discover the truth about something, what it costs us always is an illusion, right?
Because illusion is the opposite of truth, right?
Okay. I mean, the real opposite of truth is not a lie.
The real opposite of truth is a lie that we think is truth.
Mm-hmm. I think you gave me a very neutral mm-hmm there.
We can take a moment. Right?
Because if I lie to you and you know that I'm lying, then you already know the truth about what I'm saying, right?
Right. Which is that it's a lie, right?
If I say north is south, you know that I'm speaking a falsehood, right?
Correct. So that's not, if I lie to you, that's not the opposite of truth.
If you know that I'm lying.
Okay, but if I don't know that you're lying, then that's the opposite of truth?
If you accept my lie as a truth, that is the opposite of truth, because you think it's true, so you're going to stop looking for the truth, but it's not true what you believe, or what I've told you, right?
Okay. Like, let me put it to you another way.
Let's say that you need to drive south to get home, right?
Okay. And I say to you, you stop and ask, you don't know which way to drive, right?
Come to a four-way intersection, and you just know you need to go south, but you don't know which way is south, right?
Mm-hmm. And you stop and ask me, I'm standing at the four-way intersection, you stop and you ask me, and you say, which way is south?
Mm-hmm. Now, if I say, I don't know, you're going to ask someone else or you're going to wait and you're going to try and figure it out, whatever, right?
Right. And if I say, what you need to go is to go north and south at the same time, then you're just going to say, okay, so he's mental, right?
Okay. And you will still keep looking for the truth, right?
Right. But if I point confidently and say, you need to drive that way, that is south.
I've lived here for 20 years.
I take that road every day.
That is exactly where you need to go.
Then I'll just trust you even if you're wrong.
That's the opposite of the truth if I'm pointing the wrong way.
Okay. Now I understand what you're trying to say.
It moves you further away from your goal, right?
Right. Now I get what you're trying to say.
Okay. And so the price that we pay for the truth or the price that the truth charges us is the illusion that we think is true.
But isn't. Right?
Right. So, what is the illusion that he is most attached to with regards to his family that has a, let's say, degree of probability of being false?
That his mom was a good mom?
Look at that, and you said you didn't know.
Well... When you, like, step me through it, then I realize that I probably do now.
No, you know what it is? I can tell you what it is, is that you're like, shit, if I don't give him the answer, I'm going to get another goddamn long-winded lecture.
It's easier, right? I just make it easier to go with the truth, because it's like, give you another 20-minute metaphor, it's totally up to you, right?
Okay, go on. Sorry?
Sorry? Well, go on.
You were saying that it's his relationship with his mom that is the illusion?
Yeah, I think for sure.
Because his mom can't really be a good parent and let all that happen, you know?
His mom, let me just write this down so I can quote it back to you later, can't really be a good parent.
Okay, sorry, can't be a good parent, period.
Can't be a good parent.
So a guy who stabs you in the neck for no reason can't be a good surgeon, right?
Right. She never stepped up to stop any of it.
So how is that a good parent?
Right, okay. Never stepped up to stop it, okay.
What else? I think that's it.
I guess he's never told me that she's done anything, so I have to go by what he said, even if it's not true, because I have no idea, as to anything else, you know?
Right. And so from all that he said, she just never stood up to his dad at all for his sake.
And so he still thinks that she's a great parent regardless of that.
Thinks that she didn't do anything wrong and whatnot.
I'd have to disagree.
Okay, got it.
And what else?
I don't want to keep pushing you.
I just want to make sure that we've got what you want to say out.
I think that's it.
Okay. And you know how you introduced her to me at the beginning of this convo, right?
As a good person.
As a great person, right?
Yeah. You said she speaks her mind to other people.
She lets other people have their mind and have their own thoughts and feelings and express themselves.
And she's great and she's positive and all these kinds of things, right?
Yeah. Right.
Now, if that's not empirically true, which it's not, where does the idea come from?
Probably from him.
No, it does come from him.
From Jesse. No.
No. I mean, for you, yes, but not the origin.
Where does the idea of this mom as a wonderful person come from?
I mean, for you, yes.
Sorry, I apologize.
I was too abrupt there. I was going to say, I don't know how else it could have come to me.
See, Jesse's dead, and he's been dead for the whole movie.
Sorry, no, I'm just kidding. But it doesn't come from him, right?
It comes from her.
From the mom? Yeah.
Right, so the mom believes that she is a great and wonderful mother, right?
Mm-hmm. Sorry, I've got another mm-hmm there?
I always get a lot. Sorry, that's a, yeah, I agree.
Okay, and she believes that she can speak her mind, other people can speak their minds and so on, that she's open to differences of opinion and she respects people's thoughts and feelings and so on, right?
Yeah. And so, have you ever brought up with her that you're not entirely sure that she's such a great person?
Yeah, I did once, actually.
Oh, cool. What happened?
She listened to me and just said, well, I'm sorry that you feel that way.
Granted, you don't know everything, but I respect that you feel that way, and maybe some other time we can go into it more, because I had to run to class.
Okay, so she said that she was sorry that you felt that way, so in other words, there was no objective truth in anything you were saying, it was just your feelings, like I would say, I'm sorry that you're carsick?
Yeah. Okay, and how did that make you feel?
I was happy that I got her...
I thought that I got her to admit something because I was a little sidetracked and I was happy about it and I was happy about the fact that we get to talk about it later on.
How long ago did that conversation occur?
Two weeks. Two weeks ago, okay.
And has there been any resumption of that conversation?
No, I haven't called her back yet.
Why not? I have to call her.
Because I've actually been really busy with the paper from hell.
Well, and again, this is not to criticize, but you've had time for the board, you have time for this conversation and so on, right?
So conceivably, if there were a million dollars in it for you, you could have made the time, right?
Yeah, I just, I didn't want to.
Okay, and that's fine. I mean, we just want to be clear about what's going on, right?
Yeah, sorry. Why didn't you want to?
And I don't disagree with you.
I certainly don't disagree with your feelings of not wanting to, but why don't you want to?
That's a really good question.
I didn't think about it.
Look at that. Where are we now?
40 minutes into the convo?
And 37. And look at that.
I have a good question. Just kidding, go on.
I guess I don't want to change my perception of her as a human, probably.
Well, I think that's a possible...
So if it's not true that she's a great person, you would rather continue to believe that she is.
Yeah.
And why would you prefer that?
Because if she's not a great person, then I'd have to tell that to Jessie. then I'd have to tell that to Jessie.
And I don't want to do that.
And why not?
I'm not saying wrong. I mean, just what's your thinking?
Yeah. Because...
I always felt like I was the main reason that he divorced from his dad.
And I'm not saying that was a bad thing.
But it's so obvious that he had this really close emotional connection with his mom.
And I don't want to be the reason, because then the only person that he'd be emotionally connected to is me.
Well, there's a whole lot of assumptions in that, and I don't want to peel them all apart, but the first one that I would ask is, what is the evidence that he has a close emotional bond with his mother?
The way he talks to her, the fact that he tells her everything and anything, and refuses to do that, heck, even with me.
The fact that he's the one that calls her all the time.
She's the only other person besides me that he actually expresses love to.
Okay, so the perception is that he can tell her anything and everything, right?
Yeah. So, tell me then why there is this topic that he won't talk about, or that you won't talk about with him, or that you won't even talk about with his mom, which is questions about whether the mom is a good or not so good person.
Because I feel like if he decided that she wasn't a good person, that would sever their relationship.
Yeah. And if she's not a good person, that'd be a good thing.
But at the same time, then the only person that he...
As far as I know, the only person he'd be emotionally connected to would be me.
And that's a very frightening thought.
Well, of course, because I can tell you what you're...
Well, no, that's too much. We will do that later.
But the fact that he is in close proximity to and talks to his mother a lot is zero indication of emotional intimacy.
I mean, just practically.
Because there are people who are codependent, and again, I'm not saying this is the case, I'm just saying this is an example, right?
But there are people who are codependent, who, you know, there are obsessive husbands who text their wives ten times a day, right?
Call them at work and shadow them and just don't want to ever be apart from them, right?
And talk their ear off, right?
Okay. So, proximity and...
But conversation is not the definition of intimacy.
Well, then what is?
Well, I have an RTR book about that, which I don't want to start reading now, but we don't need the what is.
We need the what isn't, right?
I mean, we need to know that this is not south before we figure out which way is north, right?
Right. So, if he can talk to her about anything and everything, but talking about his mother with you is a complete non-subject, then clearly there's censorship in the relationship, right? Yeah, there is.
And the fact that you feel uncomfortable talking to the mom about questions to do with her outlandish behavior, right?
I mean, this is jaw-dropping.
This is a jaw-dropping situation, right?
I mean, just objectively, right?
I mean, there's stuff that's out there and then there's stuff that's like beyond Pluto out there, right?
And this situation where he's de-dadded but is incredibly close to his mom while she's living with his abuser and they're ex-Catholics but they won't get divorced and she continues to support the guy who beat up her kid.
That's seriously out there, right?
Yeah. So, let's just say there are questions to be raised about this family, right?
Mm-hmm. Would that be a fair statement?
Yeah, there are.
And, in fact, there are probably more questions to be raised about this family than 95% of the families that I've ever heard of.
Yeah. I wouldn't know.
There's dysfunction in this household.
Sorry? I said I personally wouldn't know because I don't know 95% of the families that you hear, but...
I assume that you're telling the truth because they are really crazy.
And this doesn't mean, this doesn't mean that they're the most abusive.
This doesn't mean that they're in the top five percent of abusive by any means.
Just so you understand what I'm talking about.
Right. It just means that they're in the top five of complex situations that need examining, right?
Yeah. I don't know if you were in on the Sunday call a couple of weeks ago when Tom started really feeling about his family.
I mean, that was worse than this guy's family, but it wasn't as complex as this guy's family, right?
Yeah, I wasn't in on that call.
Okay, well, if you get a chance.
I mean, this is just someone who was in a great deal of pain about his family, but there was not a lot of...
It wasn't that complex, right?
I mean, it was just bad, right?
Mm-hmm. But this is seriously complex and dense messed-up-edness, right?
Yeah, it's very dysfunctional.
It is very dysfunctional.
And so I'm just trying to put together these two facts, which don't seem to me to fit together, and I'm certainly happy to hear how they can.
A... He's really close to a highly dysfunctional mother, and that dysfunction is the most important thing that is going on in the family, and B, nobody can even come within 10 miles of talking about the dysfunction openly.
Yeah, I think those are both right, actually.
And they might not...
Sorry, go ahead. I was saying they might not fit together well, but it's definitely the case in his family.
Right, and when I say don't fit together well, I mean that they're complete opposites.
Yeah. So it can't at all be the case that he has an open and honest relationship with his mother.
Because if there's this monstrous elephant in the room, and there are actually a freaking herd of monstrous elephants in the room, The things that he would have to talk about his mother could fill a bookshelf, right?
Yeah. And they don't talk about any of them, right?
No, they don't. And when FDR comes up, or introspection, or any of these sorts of things, or openness and honesty with the family comes up, he completely tenses up, right?
He just, yeah.
And it just becomes like a don't go there thing, right?
Yeah. And so that comes through to you as well, right?
In that you get a sense of how much cannot be talked about in this family structure, right?
And you feel that pressure to not talk about this stuff, right?
Yeah. And this is the family structure that, and I don't believe that it's your perception at all, but that you opened up by saying, she's great, she's wonderful, she's open, but she's not.
I mean, just empirically, right?
Right. I was probably...
Just repeating thoughts that I felt I should repeat.
Well, it's the mother's vanity that is spreading out like ripples in a pond, right?
Right. Because fundamentally, this is why she thinks of herself, right?
Mm-hmm. This is how she presents herself to others and, more fundamentally, to herself, right?
Yeah. I'm open, I'm this, I'm that, I'm, you know, whatever, right?
Yeah. And clearly, because you're not stupid, and I'm sure neither is Jessie, quite the opposite, she's pretty convincing, right?
Yeah, she is. And people, it's funny, you know, this is something that's sort of a general rule that's useful to have.
Up close, just about everyone is convincing.
But it's when you pull back and you look at the bigger picture of their lives that they're just not so convincing anymore, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Definitely true. Because, I mean, this is like so seriously masked that the fact...
And it is inevitable, almost inevitable, that this family simply will not talk about any of this stuff, right?
Yeah, they can't talk about it.
No, they can't. They can't.
So, when we talk about the price of...
The truth for Jesse, like I think we're closer, right?
Yeah, probably.
Okay.
In what way are we not closer?
I don't know why I said probably, actually.
Okay.
I guess because I'll just never know.
If that makes any sense.
Never know what? What the real price is for him because he won't ever tell me.
Well, but he doesn't need to tell you.
The fact that he won't tell you is exactly what the price is.
Wow, doesn't that sound like a fortune cookie?
Yeah, it does. I'm trying to dissect what that means.
There is no communication better or greater or deeper than no communication at all, right?
And this is the sound of one hand clapping.
Right. Got it.
Okay. Well, I mean, we've done a considerable amount of detective work in 50 minutes, right?
Yeah. And we have a pretty strong understanding of what it will cost him.
It will cost him the illusion of his mother's virtue, right?
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it will.
I mean, can you imagine?
Let me just put this...
So we understand this outside the fog of the family?
If a guy had regularly beaten up Christina, and I said, well, I mean, I'm not that close to him, but he still comes over for dinner every week, what would you think?
That was just really crazy and weird.
Well, and would that not tell you everything about my supposed love for my wife and her own self-esteem as well?
Yeah, it would. So, your boyfriend-in-law, your mother and boyfriend, I don't know, this woman is choosing loyalty to an abuser while claiming love for her son, right? Right.
That is abusive.
I mean, if I invite a guy over for dinner who beat up my wife, am I not being abusive?
Yeah, you are. Right.
The complicity, and you say, because what you said, and this is very common, and I don't mean to pick on you, right, but what you said was his mom can't be a good parent, and she never stepped up to stop the abuse and never stood up to defend Jesse, right?
Right. That's not true.
That's not true. That's not true at all.
If I kidnap someone and deliver them up to the mafia to be tortured...
Would it be accurate to say, well, I just didn't stand up to defend them?
No, it wouldn't. You'd be just as bad as the rest of them.
Well, actually, I'd be worse, because I'm the one who's actually created the situation.
I mean, I delivered the victim to the mafia torturer, right?
Right. And how does that fit into this metaphor?
Or how does that metaphor fit into this situation?
Well, in essence...
The mom did the same thing by just allowing everything to happen?
No, see, you're still going with the passive tense, right?
If I kidnap somebody, drive them to be tortured, when they're not even guilty of anything, can it be said that I allowed it to happen?
No, you made it happen.
I made it happen. It could not happen without me, right?
I guess the part where I just have the disconnect then is because she didn't really drive anyone over to the dad.
The dad was already there.
Well, how did the children come into the picture?
Was it a miracle? Oh, Jesse is so close to Jesus.
He's come back, hasn't he? It was immaculate.
Was there a stalk? Did Angelina Jolie leave something behind when she visited?
How did the children come into the picture?
Okay, so yeah, she didn't give birth.
Well, she could have, I assume that she's not, you know, the elephant woman, right?
That she has a few charms, right?
Right. And so it wasn't like she was assigned a bad husband.
It wasn't like she could not have chosen a different husband, right?
So she, in the entire arena of her dating, she pricked out a highly abusive man.
She dated him, she got engaged to him, she married him.
And with perfect knowledge of his abuse, she gave him children, and then she stood back and let him do his evil business.
Okay, so yeah, she did drive then.
Sorry, it's just, it's hard to think about it all.
Well, there was a very emotional pause for you there, and what happened there for you?
I'm trying not to revert back to what I want to believe about it all.
And I'm trying to think about what actually happened, if that makes any sense.
Well, yeah, and this is all very challenging for us, right?
Because we have such a large amount of propaganda that comes out of parents.
That going back to the facts is hard, right?
Yeah. But it's just, I mean, fundamentally, it's exactly the same thing that we do with the government, right?
We get a lot of propaganda about the government, you know, it's here to protect us, and without the government, no roads, no doctors, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
And so, as libertarians or anarchists or whatever, we just look at the facts, right?
Right. I guess it's harder to do that with a parent, though, because at least with a state, there's no emotional involvement.
Right. I completely agree with you, and that, of course, is why I keep pounding on the family, right?
Because it is much harder. And until we can get it there, there's no point getting it anywhere else, right?
Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
Right, so the abuse of the father is impossible without...
The mother. The active participation of the mother.
The mother creates the situation and the father then exploits it, right?
Right. Which isn't right in any...
Sorry, go ahead. I said it's just not right at all to do that.
To do what? On both of their parts.
For her to make the situation and for the dad to exploit it.
Oh, absolutely, for sure.
I mean, to me, it's evil on both sides.
And I say evil not to define their entire personalities, but to me, any situation that results in a helpless child being brutalized is evil.
Yeah. And as I've always said, there tends to be a psychological tendency for one parent to get away, right?
So there's a bad cop and there's a good cop.
There's a bad parent and then there's a helpless parent.
And it's not the case at all in reality.
Right, right.
I mean, unless she was imprisoned and raped, she is the primary creator of the situation.
Right. Very true.
Now, her story, of course, is that she was a victim, right?
Mm-hmm. Well, her story is that she just couldn't do anything and whatnot.
He would have done it anyway, blah, blah, blah.
Right. Okay, so she's a victim, right?
And so we should have sympathy for her as a victim, right?
Right. And we should not blame her because it just happened to her, right?
Right. Now, of course, even if we accept that to be the case, which it's not, but even if we did, certainly as an adult woman, Who was not living in 1860, she had infinitely more options than her child did, right? Right.
I mean, the child has no options at all, right?
True. So if we're supposed to have sympathy for her as a victim, surely we should have infinitely more sympathy for her children, even by her own standard, right?
Right. Because they're the real victims.
They are the real victims. Even if we accept that she is, they're infinitely more, right?
Right. And what that means is that she should be bending every conceivable fiber of her being by her own definition to help her child overcome his genuine victimization, right?
Right. And not talking about the elephants in the room is doing the exact opposite of that, right?
Right. The abuse continues.
Yeah.
And your boyfriend is far more afraid of his mother than he is of his father.
Because at least he took a stand with his dad.
Thank you.
Well, he rejected his father and cut him off.
And not only remains, quote, friends with his mom or close or intimate, but goes on this whole insistent charade about how close and wonderful she is, right?
Well, can it be possible that he actually believes it?
No. No, no.
I mean, because he went through the brutality, right?
While she stood around.
So no, he in no way, shape, or form genuinely believes it.
Now, what does happen, and this is very much the case with religious people, right?
And I've got this God as the fear of others, right?
Well, truth, family addictions or the Stockholm Syndrome is just the fear of attack, right?
Right. There's no question that, I mean, if he had counseled his mom as a kid that she should run away and save him, right, she would have said no.
In fact, this may have actually happened.
We may never know, right?
Right. But who is he more afraid of?
The person who he colludes with or the person that he has actively rejected as evil?
The person that he colludes with.
Of course, yeah, of course.
Right, so who has more power to frighten and control him?
His father or his mother?
His mom. Now, if his mom, and this is why I said at the beginning there had to be verbal abuse, if his mom did not beat him, then the only capacity that she would have, or the only way that she could have such direct power over him is because she has an unbelievable capacity for probably quite subtle verbal abuse.
Yeah. And I bet you you sensed that about her, which is why you didn't call her back.
Maybe. If it did, it was subconscious.
Yeah, no, agreed. Agreed.
And of course, there's a very easy way to test this, right?
Call her back? Call her back and start talking about this sort of stuff.
Or play her with this podcast.
Yeah. I'll probably just send the podcast to her.
If she is a good and wise and open person and so on.
Then she will recognize that this is all kinds of messed up, that she is betraying her son for the sake of conformity with a God that she no longer really believes in at the expense of her son's mental health, and that she was not a passive victim of a bad husband but actively chose and sought him out and gave him children to abuse and then stood back and let him do it, that she drove the victim to the abuser and kept the door locked on the outside while he beat and cried for release.
And that's some pretty dark stuff to face in oneself, right?
Right.
Now, I can guarantee you that what she's going to do is explode in a rage of verbal violence.
Yeah, maybe that's why I just never really wanted to, because I knew it would happen.
Look, any mother who can watch her child be beaten and stay is sadistic beyond words.
Who can send her own child to be beaten again and again and then continue to live with the abuser is cruel and sadistic beyond words.
yeah and so when confronted on that because she has this very convincing bullshit story about what a great person she is when confronted on those basic facts she will absolutely guaranteed blow sky high and he knows that which is why he doesn't go there And you know that, which is why you don't go there.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And he knows that the first place FDR would take him is right there, right?
Yeah, which would explain why he's so against it.
Right, but also why he's so torn, right?
Yeah. He desperately wants this release, but he is so afraid of his mother...
And the rage that she will bring to bear on him, right?
Because you said something, you said things a couple of times that are very interesting, the same thing a couple of times.
And I'll just, the last thing that I'll sort of say is this, this aspect of things.
You said a couple of times, if he's no longer close to his mother, the only person he's going to be close to is me, and that's scary, right?
Yeah, that is. But it's not true.
I mean, it's not true...
In a logical sense, though, I think it may be true emotionally, which is obviously completely screwed up and doesn't mean anything to you, so let me just explain it and you let me know what you mean.
Okay, go. Now, if he is no longer close to his mother because she has blown up and thrown him out, then yes, no question, he will attach to somebody else, probably you, and damn straight, that would be terrifying.
Right? That would be stalker land, right?
Yeah. Yeah. If his mother throws him off and he has this codependency and fear and desire for fusion and attachment and control and so on, then basically the big suction pad that his mother throws off is going to sniff around and latch onto you, right?
Yeah. And it's not just scary in the soccer sense, it's scary in the fact that I don't want it at all.
No, you don't want that power.
Right? You don't want that power.
No sane human being wants that kind of power over someone else, right?
Like, I can't breathe. I don't even...
Not just the power. I don't have the responsibility that goes along with it.
Well, and of course, because it wouldn't be your responsibility anyway, right?
Right. It's not your fault that it's childhood, whatever, right?
Right. But, so from an emotional standpoint, if what happened was...
up back and the whole thing exploded and so on and she just tossed him out, right, into the proverbial snowbank, then for sure he would be devastated and appalled and this and that and the other, right?
And he would try and find somebody else to latch onto and it would be highly unstable and highly odd, right?
Right.
Right. Right.
If he is no longer close to his mother, there is another person that he can actually become close to that is not you or her or his dad.
Himself? Yeah, for sure.
I guess I'm afraid that's just not going to happen.
Well, I concur with your judgment completely.
I would consider the odds of that happening to be beyond tiny.
So I'm just – but I'm just pointing out, right, just for clarity's sake, right?
Right. That, I mean, yeah, I completely, I would not, if I were you, I would not send the podcast to the mom.
If I were you, I would not talk to the mom.
And I would not even talk to Jessie about this.
Right. Right, because everybody has made their positions abundantly clear already, right?
Right. And it just wouldn't help anything at all.
Well, quite the opposite, right?
Yeah, I'd make it all worse.
Well, I don't know that you would make it worse, because it's sort of hard to see how...
If you say that there aren't nail guns involved, I guess it's better, but it's hard to see how it could be worse.
But what will happen is that you will provoke an extraordinary destabilization in people who...
are and what your number is and what your email is.
It's just not a good idea, right?
You don't need to stick a stick into a hornet's nest to know that hornets aren't good for you, right?
Right.
But I will say for sure that my opinion, and this is only, only, only my opinion, of course, as all of this nonsense is, but I will say though, Ali, Ali, that wherever you have a situation in your life where you cannot be honest, that your humanity, self-intimacy, capacity for love, for wisdom, for openness will be crippled.
But then I don't understand how that's going to help me to like end anything with him, you know?
Sorry, help you what?
End anything with him.
What do you mean? Because I don't want to...
I guess I don't want to be stuck in this anymore.
In the same what? In this relationship with him anymore.
Well, sorry. When I said that any place where you can't be honest cripples you emotionally, what did you think I was saying about the relationship that you have with Jesse?
That he's emotionally crippled because...
No, you can't be honest with him.
I'm not saying that you're emotionally crippled, but I am saying that wherever you have to avoid very important topics with people, it is emotionally crippling.
And I'm not that concerned about Jesse and his mom.
I'm more concerned, because you are a double subscriber, I am more concerned about your income.
I mean, sorry, I'm more concerned about your happiness.
No, but it's you.
It's your capacity for honesty in this situation that is my concern.
Not him and his mom or his dad and his, you know, second cousin's goats.
That doesn't matter to me at all.
What does matter to me is how honest and open you can be about this, his family environment and his emotional tension around all of it.
I can't be.
No, you can't. I agree.
You can't be. And that's what I'm saying about your relationship with him, right?
Yeah. Because I can tell you what you really...
I mean, this is my opinion too, right?
But I can tell you what you wanted from me from this call.
I think. What?
I think that what you wanted from me, Ali, was this.
Give me a whole bunch of stuff that I can't talk to him about so I get how little I can talk to him about.
Well, I just wanted...
I really just wanted to know why I'm so scared.
Of breaking up money? Of ending it, yeah.
Well, I think that we've got some understanding, right?
And we can spend a few more minutes on your actual fear because that's right.
So we've got some understanding of the lay of the land.
I'm not saying you didn't before, but we've got a little bit more here.
Now, what you're doing is you're facing a very large superstructure of corrupt and evil fantasies, right, in this family.
No. Right?
I mean, that's just the reality of who they are, right?
Yeah. Now, there are tons upon tons of people who scorn and reject FDR, right?
Right. I mean, your friends touch and go.
We'll see, right? But there are tons and tons of people who scorn and reject FDR, right?
I get a million emails a day telling me, you know, that I'm wrong and stupid and all this kind of stuff, right?
Right. Right. But, yeah, fundamentally, it doesn't bother me.
I mean, fundamentally, it truly doesn't bother me.
Because we have a methodology here that we work with, or I work with a methodology, that it doesn't matter if I'm wrong.
Because I'm all about the methodology, not the conclusions, right?
So if I come to a wrong conclusion, so what?
Just go back and fix it.
My ego or my credibility does not rest upon the conclusions but rather upon the rigor of reason and evidence.
Right.
Right Right. Right. Right.
So the reason that I can handle a lot of scorn and contempt and disagreement and, you know, horrible things going on in other places over the internet and so on is because I'm not living in fantasy, right?
Right. But for people who do live in fantasy, when you, quote, reject them, it's a whole different story, right?
Right. Yeah.
So, what's going to happen?
Because, I mean, you're going to have to give him some kind of reason, right?
Yeah. So, what are you going to say?
Why are you breaking up? Well, my reason is because, just, as far as the relationship goes, there isn't really one right now.
Like a romantic relationship, there can't be one because we're not near each other, we rarely talk, and But that's not true, right?
I mean, just between you, I, and a few other people, right?
Because if you said, well, the reason is because we're far apart, and he said, great, I'll move to come and be with you.
You wouldn't say, like, yay, right?
Well, I think I would, actually.
Really? So we've been talking about this thing for the whole time, and you still think this could be a good relationship?
Yeah. Yes, you do.
I'm afraid that you do.
Don't get all Swiss on me, young lady.
I guess emotionally...
Like, I'm so attached to him.
Right. You mean to...
I mean, obviously he has charm and qualities and good things about him and so on, right?
Right. But...
All the stuff that you can't talk about, right?
Yeah, but I guess it goes even farther than that for me because he's kind of the reason that I was able to stand up to a lot of people in my life and I don't want to lose him.
Right. Well, but if you don't want to lose him, then if he is the most important thing, then why don't you guys, given that he's not in school, why doesn't he just move to where you are?
Um, he can't afford it.
Why not? Can he not get two jobs?
I have no idea. Well, but that's sort of important, right?
Yeah. I mean, I guess he can.
Sure he can. Look, I mean, he's not in Guantanamo Bay, right?
He can do whatever he wants. Right.
I guess... Well, he just hasn't.
And that hasn't even come up in conversation at all.
Which is sort of telling, right?
Yeah. I guess we both don't want to move and be with each other.
And he's always complaining, and I'm always complaining that we're not around each other.
But neither of us do anything about it.
Well, sure. And I would say that there's probably some good reasons to why, which is what we've talked about in this conversation.
Yeah. But let me stop here, not only because we've gone on for a while, but because if this is a relationship that you still want, then I can't go any further in this conversation with you.
And this is not to say that you're wrong or anything like that, but there's nothing more that I can say.
Yeah. If that makes sense.
And again, it's just a point.
Yeah. I guess more than anything, I think I'm afraid of not having Kim around.
Which may sound really weird, but I'm really afraid of Losing the person who was the reason for all of my personal change.
No, he was not the reason for your personal change.
I mean, come on, I'll hear positive things, but not things that are just not true.
Right? I mean, he doesn't have any buttons through which to control your brain, right?
He doesn't move your arms or give you things to read or things like...
He doesn't force you to listen to things or read things.
You did that. You did that.
Not him. Now, he may have been a catalyst, but...
But... You did it.
The energy and the engine and all of that is you, not him.
It's within you. It's not his to provide or not provide.
Our own souls, our own growth, our own direction, our own authenticity, our own truth is not for other people to give or to take from us.
It is our own.
I guess, I think, he is, he is the, like, Like, sorry.
I guess more than anything, I've been grateful to him for it for so long.
And it wasn't just the fact that he told me about atheism and all that stuff, it was the fact that He, like, was the reason that I addressed a bunch of relationships in my life, that I addressed my thought behind those.
And I'm not saying that he was the only reason, I'm saying he was the main catalyst.
No, I understand that.
I fully understand that.
I really, really do. And it just scares me to lose the catalyst.
I understand all of that, because in your mind, A, you feel grateful for your mind to have been lit up in this kind of way, and B, you're not entirely sure that you can do it alone, right?
Right. But, and this is not to make this about me, this is just a contrast, right?
Right. Have I ever told anyone that they owe me anything for what I do?
No Why do you think that I don't do that Because you don't feel like people should I Well, but that's just a way of rephrasing it.
Why do I not do it? Because I don't think that you should do it.
Well, that's not a reason.
Why does your arm lift? Because you want to lift your arm, right?
There's still not an explanation, right?
Why don't I create obligation in people for what I do?
Or attempt to create obligation for what I do?
I don't know.
Well, I think you do, but it's unconscious and we'll keep it short.
The reason that I don't attempt to create obligation In the people that I talk to?
It's because if they feel indebted to me, it diminishes their belief in themselves.
If I'm teaching someone Mandarin, I don't want them to have to phone me to get the Mandarin phrase every time they need to say something, right?
Right. I want them to be able to speak Mandarin and forget about me completely.
That would be my goal as a teacher, right?
Right. Right.
To give them the tools to be entirely dependent upon themselves and not to be dependent upon me.
And certainly not to feel any kind of gratitude or submission to my generosity or whatever, right?
Yeah.
And if he had taught you, and I'm not saying he didn't teach you good things or useful things, but if he had been a great teacher, you would not feel obligated to him.
Okay.
I think I understand.
Tell me what you mean.
That just because someone might be a catalyst for change doesn't mean that you owe them for being the catalyst.
Right. And what would it mean if I said people owe me?
I mean, how many people do I owe, right?
Do I say, okay, you give me 100% of your gratitude and then I'll give 50% of it to Ayn Rand and 30% of it to Aristotle and 20% to this and 10% to this and 3% to this?
It wouldn't make any sense, right?
Right. To say that people should be grateful to me would be to say that I am the originator of the English language, of the internet, of podcasting, of philosophy, of reason.
I mean, it's not true.
I'm just passing along, right?
Right. I mean, so your boyfriend didn't come up with all the arguments, right?
He may have come up with some, but this is just stuff he read from other people.
So should you be grateful to the people who got him going?
Right. And should you be grateful to the people who got the people who got him going going?
And so on. It's infinite regression, right?
Right. So none of us can claim to be the force of enlightenment that people should be grateful to.
There's no individual who can claim that.
Right. Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does. So feeling that you owe him something is not good teaching on his part, and to be perfectly honest with you, it smacks to me of a very similar kind of vanity to the vanity that his mother has.
Yeah. That's why I tell everybody, you're the genius.
You're the philosopher. Not me.
Because I want people to have self-generating and self-sustaining personal growth.
Right. To the degree that they feel that I am responsible for it, they feel less responsible for it themselves, which means that it's not their ownership, and it is.
Right. Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
Well, yeah, sorry, somebody said, sorry, Steph, you are a genius, can't escape it.
Well, of course I am, and other people are too.
Everybody in this conversation is, but what I want people to focus on is their own genius, not mine.
You don't teach people tennis to constantly beat them.
If you're a good tennis teacher, they'll beat you, right?
Right. And if everybody's a genius and everybody's a philosopher, I can't reasonably exclude myself from that category.
But the important thing is that it's yours.
The growth is yours.
Yes, other people may have worked to light up your brain, but so what?
That's like saying, I'm not responsible for what I say because I didn't invent the English language, right?
Right. I have a lot to think about now.
Excellent. Excellent. As always.
Right. So, good.
Another candidate of truth straight to the ovaries?
I don't know. We can't say that.
All right. Well, I'll send you a copy of this.
I certainly do appreciate it. I think it was a great chat.
Have a listen to it and let me know what you think about its release.
For sure. And thank you so much for agreeing to it in the first place.
Bye. Okay. Will do. Thank you.
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