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May 21, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:15:03
1071 Stef on the NSP Radio Show Apr 21 2008

An interesting set of listener questions :o

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Time Text
Oh, yes, I can hear you.
We have Stefan. Welcome to the show, Stefan.
We've got you on, finally.
Well, thank you very much. I do appreciate it.
I actually just decided to do the show.
The problem was that the bits here were getting stopped and strip-searched at the border, but managed to bypass that.
The difference is my bits actually enjoy it.
So that was part of the delay, so sorry about that.
But we're live, and we're ready to roll.
Excellent, excellent.
I know we have Jim in New Jersey on.
If you just be patient, hold on for just a moment.
We just brought Stefan on.
So please be patient.
We'll bring you up in just a few moments.
So I know you have a big announcement, so I want to get right to that.
How about we leave the music to you?
Well, I just wanted to tell...
It's a special just for your listeners and everybody else.
But I have released...
All three of my non-fiction books on truth, the tyranny of illusion, which is how to apply philosophy within a family context, universally preferable behavior, a rational proof of secular ethics, and real-time relationships, which is a book I sort of wrote in conjunction with my wife, who practices psychology, which is the logic of love, how to...
Achieve richness, freedom, joy, and intimacy in your personal relationships all free all the time.
You get the e-books, you can get the audio books, you can get all that kind of good stuff.
It's free, freedomainradio.com forward slash free dot html.
Did I use the word free enough in there?
I think I did. You can never use that enough on this show.
Exactly. In fact, I count.
That's what this show was about.
So yeah, anyway, just for the listeners who are interested, they're great books.
If I do say so myself.
And well worth it.
I read the audiobooks and the PDFs are all available for free.
You can download them. You can share them.
You can send them around. And I think that they will be well worth any investment of time that people put into reading them.
Excellent. For those who may have missed that, we'll give out the contact information again, and definitely at the end of the show, we'll give that out.
Before we really get into everything, I know Jim's impatient, so we'll bring Jim up.
We have Jim from New Jersey.
Jim, welcome to the show.
Hey, thank you.
Hey, it's Heidi. Jim and I share a phone number.
Oh! Okay.
I just wanted to...
I hope you're good....is an investigatory body created for the protection of society and the enforcement of the law, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But I was fascinated by the insertion of the word civil.
Now, I don't remember seeing that before, but I did, in fact, complain on somebody else's behalf.
to the El Prado grand jury and apparently it was about a prosecutor in their county and apparently they did investigate him.
Now it did not lead to an indictment but if they're calling themselves a civil grand jury I don't know whether they've handed essentially handed over their power to find probable cause to Guess who?
The prosecutor. So, I mean, it raises all kinds of, you know, interesting points.
But I think, so I guess what I'm saying is, in some parts of the country, they are more available than they are in, the grand juries are more available than they are in other parts of the country.
Where I am in that place known as New Jersey, they might as well be hermetically sealed.
Yeah, same as Arizona.
Gotcha. I hear music, so I think you've got to go.
Yeah, we're up against a break, but I do appreciate to call Heidi.
Okay, take it easy. Bye.
Thanks. My name is Mark Stevens.
You're listening to The No Stay Project, here with my guest finally today, Stephen Fon Molineux of FreeDomainRadio.com.
We'll be right back. Alright,
welcome back to the No State Project, the only show on the air dedicated to bring about a voluntary society.
World without the cancer we call government.
And of course, that's nothing more than a group of men and women providing a service at the barrel of a gun.
I want to welcome back my great guest.
He's a regular guest. He's here every third Saturday of the month, Stefan Molyneux of FreeDomainRadio.com.
Welcome back, Steph. Thanks, Mark.
I just wanted to point out that that guitar solo you played just totally beat up my Barry Manilow CD. So I think it's a new one.
I just wanted to mention that.
Poor Barry. He's hiding in the corner and his hair's falling out.
Well, you know, it's funny you mention hair falling out.
I got a guy who trolls on my YouTube videos, and his biggest thing is making fun of my hair.
A problem I don't have a whole lot of, but go on.
Well, what's funny is, and I was going to ask you if anyone ever went and when you box them into a corner using logic and facts and reality, if they fall back on making fun of your hair.
Because this guy, he said something last night that I read last night.
I got back in late last night after driving all day, and I wanted to mention something very quick about Ron Paul, so don't let me forget that.
But what he says is that my hair plugs were put into Too deep.
And so you're wrong.
I mean, how can you argue with that?
I don't have hair plugs.
So, you know, he's defeated me with such brilliant logic that I almost considered conceding and becoming a statist again.
I mean, what do you do in the face of such overwhelming intellect, you know?
But aside from that, we heard the Ron Paul commercial before we came back from break, and I wanted to mention That it kind of broke up some of the monotony yesterday because we drove in from—we didn't drive straight through.
When I went to Idaho last week, we did it in one shot, and I'm still hurting over it.
But we're coming back from Mesquite, and we go through Vegas and everything, and then you get into California.
And, Steph, it's one of the worst drives you can imagine.
It's just—there's rocks and dirt and a couple of—I think they call them yucca trees or something.
There's just nothing out there.
But your south, and anyone who's ever made a trip from LA to Vegas knows what I'm talking about when you go up by 15.
And about 20 miles south of Baker, I think it's south of Baker, there was a huge, huge thing about Ron Paul on the west side of the street.
And I was actually glad to see it because it broke up the monotony.
It was something to discuss for a few minutes.
Anyway, I want to get back. I don't know if you heard.
I have this complaint that U.S. attorneys, they call themselves, or attorneys general.
You want an army of attorneys.
Can you think of anything worse? So they write this complaint to stop people from selling trust and to educate people about the income tax system.
And I may not agree with all the things, or the necessarily approach, but all they really do is put forth Supreme Court decisions.
I don't know how familiar you are if you've ever seen anything like that, where they talk about the Supreme Court discussing the income tax and certain interpretations of what income is and all that.
Not particularly, no.
The minutiae of each particular mafia gang's code of conduct doesn't interest me.
I know it does you, and it's a good thing, but I can't really get too involved in that kind of stuff, particularly in a different country.
But go on. I'm interested to hear.
I love it. You're going to love this.
This is actually not written to be funny.
Okay? This is supposed to be serious, so I think you'll get a real kick out of this.
It's part of an injunction.
They want to stop people from teaching about the income tax system.
The United States is harmed by a defendant's scheme because defendant's customers are not reporting or paying their correct taxes.
Oh my gosh!
They're saying that the United States is harmed.
And so I saw this sick, disgusting irony here.
Here you've got a group of men and women responsible for doing more harm to the people of the world, and they're complaining about being harmed by a few people talking about the income tax.
Sure, sure.
Well, look, the farmer doesn't like it when he has to put up electric fences.
It's an inconvenience.
He just wants the cows to stay close to the house and milk themselves if they can so that he doesn't have to get out of bed.
It's not convenient when people start talking about the truth.
The truth doesn't serve those in power at all, right?
Well, of course not. And you're right.
You see so much wrong with this.
And I understand the minutia.
Because I had been going through and I mentioned to you, I think, a few months ago about how it was killing my brain to go through the English law system.
Because it's not set up like Canada or the United States.
It's a mess.
Oh, yeah. So English law is like, well, what happened last year?
Let's do that again.
It's all common law. It's all precedent.
It's why I don't have a constitution, right?
Oh, they don't have the illusion of a constitution.
Well, they have the illusion of a constitution, but it's really good in England because it's not like the United States where you can point to it.
It's just in the mind.
They were really good.
To convince the English people as smart as like Thomas Jefferson, to convince people like that that there was a constitution when it wasn't even something written down was a hell of a feat.
Yeah, great feat of propaganda, of course.
So I understand that. What I look at here is, they don't produce any facts, of course.
See, one of the things that they go, and maybe anybody who's got a problem with this is something I discussed with someone yesterday.
They say that you or I cannot challenge it.
Well, it's different in Canada. There is a little bit more you can do in Canada, but as far as the United States is concerned, they typically don't allow what they call a taxpayer to challenge a tax, a particular tax, as being damaging to him.
Okay, because they say that, well, it's not damaging to you because what they ultimately use it for is so far removed from you.
I know that makes no sense.
I don't expect anyone to...
It's just, why doesn't that apply to them?
That same stupid, twisted, faulty logic.
They can say it harms them when you don't pay.
But they say, well, you're not actually harmed because you can't complain about the money being taken because you're too far removed.
Am I getting a bit too abstract here?
No, I mean, I think it's interesting.
I mean, when you peel back the layers of propaganda to see the blood underneath, right?
Because the government is, as you say, it's a group of guys with guns and it's an organized crime or I guess you could say disorganized crime would be more appropriate.
But what is funny is the degree to which they will go to cover up their crimes.
I don't think it's particularly from us even.
I think it's more so from themselves.
But this is the nonsense that people talk about.
They say, the government is there to protect your property rights.
It's like, well, why are they taking half my money at the point of a gun?
That's funny. The doctor is here to help me, so he's amputating a healthy leg.
It doesn't even pass the smell test, let alone the logic that a five-year-old could see through.
But this is part of what passes for discourse these days, right?
Well, yeah, and what's incredible is that, and this is one of the things I mentioned before, there's a huge difference when the IRS is the plaintiff as opposed to a bankruptcy case when it's a private party.
Because then the judge, things that are basic and common sense, like the issue of standing and jurisdiction, yeah, you can reasonably expect that the judge is going to apply the law.
I'm not saying that there's going to be justice there, because there's not.
You can't have justice with these people.
It's just impossible. But you're going to have more following of the law, as opposed to here, where in the bankruptcy case, I could just pull out stuff in a one-page document.
There are no facts put here.
Yeah, you're right. But here, they don't care.
In fact, what they did in this particular case that I'm talking about, they just started saying, well, your opinion on the tax laws is just frivolous.
But that has nothing to do with your fault depleting here.
And they never address the nonsense.
So you and I can sit here on the radio and we can talk about how stupid this is.
It doesn't matter because the judge doesn't care.
No, no. I mean, of course, the people who are behind the guns, right?
Because what these judges have fundamentally is hitmen, which you and I are fortunately rather short of.
And they have people who, if you disagree with them, they'll come to your house and they'll arrest you.
And if you don't go nicely, then you're going to go bruised and broken.
And so they don't care what we say because they're behind the guns.
We're on the other side. It doesn't really matter.
Yeah, that's true. My name is Mark Stevens.
We have Paul in Delaware.
We'll bring you up in the next segment, so please be patient.
If you want to join the conversation here with Stefan Molenew and I, you can call us at 512-646-1984.
That's 512-646-1984.
We'll be right back. What a great cannonball.
My name is Mark Stephens. You're listening to the No Stay Project here on the We The People radio network.
We're here every Saturday afternoon live from 4 to 6 p.m.
Central Time, 5 to 7 p.m.
Eastern Time, and 2 to 4 p.m.
Pacific Time. And I believe it's about 11 a.m.
Sunday morning in New Zealand.
And I want to welcome everyone back to the show.
Appreciate tuning in and listening.
My guest today, of course, is Stefan Molyneux of FreeDomainRadio.com.
Welcome back, Steph. Well, thanks, Mark.
I just wanted to point out that according to the documentaries I've seen, New Zealand doesn't have radio, but they do have elves.
So I don't know if elves pick up FM, but the documentaries that I've seen, and I think it was a trilogy, you just may not have a lot of listeners in Australia because it seems to be medieval, mostly.
But anyway, I just wanted to point that out.
But please, continue. Oh, taking shots at my Aussie friends now.
Yeah. Well, they know now because they already know where you're from because you're originally from England.
I was actually born in Ireland, and I grew up in England.
I lived in Africa for a while, came to Canada, and I've traveled around a fair amount on business, and now I'm an internet philosopher, so I barely leave the house.
So this is as close as I get to getting out of town.
This is great. Well, I'll have to ask you more later about where you've traveled, but I want to bring Paul up.
He's been very, very patient.
Paul in Delaware. Paul, welcome to the No Stay Project.
How are you guys doing? Thank you very much.
I call in because I used to be a listener, and I hope that you give me the privilege, since I'm dealing with someone who claims to love freedom, that I get to talk, because it's important, my position, so you know where people's heads are at.
I'm listening to this show, but it's only because I almost have to.
Because I really don't listen to talk radio, and I'll tell you why.
And that is that it seems to be one gigantic network marketing cult with the power of radio behind it.
And I just heard Deadline Live, Jack Blood, Week of Truth.
It's almost like watching TV. When you stay away from it and then you see what they're giving people...
I would like to equate it to the same thing, but most people probably have no idea what I'm talking about.
But I'm wondering, on Free State Project, I know that that is libertarian, and yet we're speaking to someone, I think, in Ireland, and we heard about New Zealand and Australia, and I can't help, because I've listened to a show that I really...
It's called Free Talk Live on GCN. I listened to it until I got fed up, because...
I'm just a little sick of what I call cult members.
All these people who point the finger at what the problem is, but they never get anything done.
And to quote a libertarian in my area, I went to him with real information one time until I found out it's all a controlling mechanism.
And the Libertarian Party especially is controlled by the Freemasons.
And that Statue of Liberty is a prime, symbolic example of it.
But I just find so much stuff that just turns me away.
But the sad part is The majority of human beings, and this is my question.
This is my question to you people that are listening on the show.
Can you please tell me, because there's so many people that claim to be intelligent, but what I find them to be, It's what a cult member, and most of them don't even know what a cult member is.
They just point to someone like a David Koresh or the new ones in Texas now, mind you.
And I'm not saying they're not cult members, but I'm saying that the people that point the fingers, they are cult members too.
And like cult members, when someone tries to waken you up and say, hey, look, you're going down the wrong path, You can't get through to them.
You know how that is when you're dealing with cult members?
It's the same idea.
And you were talking about the most powerful thing.
I would say when people actually are able to define and understand what a cult member is, then they'll understand what I'm talking about.
What's your actual question?
I'll let Steph take this, but just restate the question clearly so Steph could...
Okay, it's a scientific question.
We're dealing with cult members.
Cult members are people who have beliefs.
That's why you have a Democratic and a Republican and a this and that party, because it's about a belief.
It's about no solid ground at all.
Alright, Paul, but just quickly...
The scientific question is this.
Do any of you all gentlemen have an idea of how to get through the thick skulls of cult members?
Well, the first thing that I would suggest is that the word cult members may be considered a little inflammatory.
And I'm not saying that you're wrong, maybe you're right, but if you want to win people over to the truth, I think that positivity and friendliness and good humor and curiosity is the way to go.
So, I mean, I understand what you're saying, that there's a lot of self-interest in towing the party line, and it's very practical to do so.
Like if you're an academic, if you start talking about the coercive nature of the state, you're going to very quickly find yourself – I mean if you're a grad student, you will very quickly find yourself unable to get a thesis advisor.
If you're up for a job and people hear about this stuff, they won't hire you.
You won't get papers published and so on.
And this is just one tiny example in a sort of big – it's not a conspiracy.
It's just that human beings respond to that which is advantageous to them.
And the problem is the system.
And people don't like talking about the coercive nature of our society.
They don't like talking about the dark side of America, the foreign bases, the renditions, the tortures, the violence, the massive debt, the predation of the future based on deficit financing and so on.
They just don't like to talk about it.
And in some ways, we can sympathize with that.
We're interested in this stuff.
But for most people, it's just like looking through a book of surgery.
I mean, if you're not a doctor, you can't help these people.
It's just kind of ugly. So I think it's understanding that most people are making a rational calculation.
as to where they're going to spend their time and energies, and understanding and giving something to them that is going to be beneficial to them, which is why, just to plug these three free books again, I've tried to write books that help people to bring philosophy into their daily life with an understanding and a kindness towards people who, why would I've tried to write books that help people to bring philosophy into their daily life with an understanding and Why would they want to learn about the truth?
It's going to alienate their friends and family.
It's going to alienate their kids' playdate parents or whatever.
We have to find something that's going to be positive for people in the realm of philosophy and truth.
And I think that, I'm not saying you're bitter, but if you sound bitter and call people cult members, it's going to drive people away from the truth rather than invite them in, if that makes sense.
It's a tough sell, right?
But I think because it's a tough sell, we have to be super friendly and positive.
Well, it's hard to get through the cult members because the human nature of what they're breeding, I don't even want to go into the breeding practices, but if anyone does just a cursory examination of just breeding of human beings, just Google it.
Okay, wait, wait, wait, just a second, just a second, let me, I'm trying to help you here, right?
So I said that if you call people cult members, that's not a very positive thing, in my opinion, and the first thing that you responded with was by calling them cult members again, and I'm just saying that if you want people to accept the truth that you're bringing, let him speak.
If you want to bring forward a truth that's going to energize and be positive towards people, learning to listen and be more sensitive to where people are coming from and more positive about what you're bringing to them would probably be something that would be beneficial to you, but get you more of what you want.
Well, the truth is offensive, as we all know, and there's no other way to put it than to describe it as what it is as Webster defines it.
And when you go to Webster's and you look at it, that's exactly what it is.
I don't want to paint a pretty picture.
Paul, let me ask you a question.
I've spoken to you on the show before and you always called in and tended to sound very angry.
Okay, and I'll tell you this.
This is one thing. It's a very difficult thing.
You come off that way, okay?
I'm just saying, and other people have made that comment also.
And Stefan's trying to help you, and I'm going to say so.
I think it can help also.
A very important thing that I learned from NLP was if you're not getting...
The meaning of your communication is the response that you get.
If you're not getting the response from people that you're looking to get, then you have to change the way that you're communicating with them.
If you just stand there and say, I'm going by the truth, this is the way it is, and damn it, you have to listen to me, and how do I get through to your thick skull?
You're not going to get nearly the response that you're looking to get.
You have to change the way you're communicating.
No, you're calling us, and you're saying you're all cult members, and I'm getting this from the radio, and I'm sick of this.
Your guest talked about philosophy.
Philosophy is another set of beliefs.
As you see, philosophers come along and show where the other philosophers are wrong.
What we've got to do is stop these belief cult members.
And now this guy wants to hand you a book about philosophy.
All I can say is I'm way far past where you're at, and I'm not disgusted.
I am kind of upset that I don't have a show, but I've got to sit here and listen to this.
You don't have to. Oh, come on, look.
Are you going to tell me that with this approach that you're taking, that you have converted one person from this cult that you describe?
Have you had one person say, oh yes, I am part of a cult, and you've enlightened me?
Oh, yes sir.
All the time. I've got a friend that may have been on this network.
His name is Steve Allen.
He put $50,000 of his own money into putting out an HIV equals AIDS documentary.
That's the name of it. And he thanked me about six months ago for waking him up.
So I'm making good progress where it matters.
Why are you calling?
Yeah, that's great. So why do you sound so disaffected that you're so tired of hearing all these things if you're having such great success?
Because I call in.
Like I said, I don't listen to talk radio.
I call the phone number and I get to get on there.
It's almost like having your own talk show.
I know how that works.
I understand that, you know, I do the same thing myself.
Well, Paul, I do appreciate that.
I appreciate the call. We're up against the break.
My name is Mark Stevens. This is the No Stay Project here with my guest, Stefan Molyneux.
If you want to join us, you can call at 512-646-1984.
That's 512-646-1984.
We'll be back in just a few minutes.
Don't go away. Do we lose Steph?
No, don't. Sorry, I just wanted to tell you that being a co-host on your show is almost exactly the same as having my own show, and I'm very bitter.
So I just wanted to let you know that I'm kind of going with the flow here.
Well, you have to keep listening.
Absolutely. So, you know, you have to.
You just, you can't help it.
I do appreciate Paul Scott.
I used to call all the time, and so it's been quite a while since we spoke to him.
I think the last time, one of the last times, I think it was actually you and I were doing one of the show together, Steph, and he had called in to berate me.
Well, maybe, he called in to make a comment, I should say, because I had, we were talking about mind control.
And I had mentioned something from, you know, just one little pearl of wisdom from Zen Buddhism.
And it had to do with that the need to be right is a sickness of the mind.
And you see the irony in a second.
And he had called up and said, how dare I get on the air and talk about mind control and then quote something from one of the worst mind control cults in the world.
So anyway, I didn't understand that one at all, but I'm glad to be back with everyone.
You do get this. With certain people, you do get this distinct feeling that you're kind of trying to debate with the television set.
And so either one of you is crazy or both of you is crazy.
And so you've got to just change your tactic, right?
Yeah, and I just thought it was, and here, the quote that he was calling to comment about is so, I think, so applicable here that the need to be right is the sickness of the mind, and most problems are created, I think, because somebody feels that they're right, everybody else is wrong, and I'm not saying he may actually, you know, someone may not actually be right, but it's where the anger comes, where I have to be able to control that they should listen to me, which is just another, it sounds like just another control freak.
Well, I'll tell you...
Yeah, I mean, the basic equation that I work with, and as a philosopher, or I guess a cult leader, you could say, as a philosopher, the general, this has been since Socrates onwards, in fact, the pre-Socratics, the general equation is the Holy Trinity.
Reason equals virtue equals happiness.
And if somebody comes into your life, this is my perspective, I'm not saying this is all proven, but this is the way that I try and work the mojo.
If someone comes into my life Who is angry?
And I don't mean angry in a just or proper manner, but just kind of bitter and negative and frustrated and tense and all over the map and so on.
Because I believe that reason equals virtue equals happiness.
If someone comes into my life who's fundamentally not happy, I just know that they're irrational somewhere because they're just not following that pattern, which is as old as philosophy.
Yeah, I agree. I agree.
We do have another call.
We have J.C. in New York City.
Hey, welcome to the show, J.C. Hi, how are you doing, Mark and Steph?
Doing good.
Doing good? Okay.
Alright, I have a question for you guys.
Why are people afraid of recession, depression, those sorts of things that are caused by government intervention in the markets?
Why are they afraid of it?
And that's my question. Do you mean why are they afraid of losing their jobs?
Why do they fixate on it so much?
Why don't they just think, well, what happens happens.
We'll do it. Can to deal with it, but why do people fixate on it, you know, through the media?
Oh, yeah, yeah. I think, I mean, I'll just touch on that briefly, but I'm sure Mark will have more to say.
I think that when we look at something like a naturally occurring phenomenon, like, I don't know, like a hurricane or something like that, people don't fixate on it in quite the same way.
It means that they'll be alert, they'll be prepared, they'll take precautions, they'll, you know, whatever.
I don't know, you duct-take your cats and whatever it is that you do.
So when there's a naturally occurring phenomenon, we're cautious and we're alert and so on.
But when there's a man-made phenomenon, things get a little different.
And I think it's because there is a lifeboat called the government, which is on a ship that's being sunk by a torpedo called the government, insofar as if you can get a government contract, then maybe you can survive the recession.
If you can get a government grant, if you can get in with a government position or something like that, And so I think because it's man-made, it's a man-made situation through manipulations of the money supply, deficit financing, all that kind of crap, people get really obsessed about it because they know that their obsession may – they believe that their obsession may have some effect, the same way that people get really fascinated by elections because it's a man-made disaster, so to speak.
But where there's a natural disaster, there's quite a different phenomenon.
That would be my short answer, if that makes any sense.
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
And if you're in business, how do you shore yourself up intellectually, emotionally, or just business-wise to get ready for this sort of hysteria that's kind of bouncing around right now in the system?
Well, I mean, the first thing that I would do is to recognize that, I mean, there's this weird belief that floats around in the government that a recession is just a state of mind.
You know, like, if we don't say the word recession, then people won't panic and sell their stocks.
And, like, we're all considered to be this hopped-up band of sheep running wildly across a landscape chased by imaginary wolves.
Yeah. And unfortunately, it's just not the case.
I mean, a recession or a depression is a very real monetary phenomenon that is amply explained by the Austrian School of Economics to do with opening and closing the floodgates of the money supply.
It's not an imaginary thing.
It's a very real, very man-made disaster.
But of course, I would say that at this point, we're in a situation within the cycle.
And this is like, I'm not an economist, so take this with all the salt in the world.
But we're not in a situation where It can be affected by any kind of public policy at the moment.
I mean, this is just the inevitable result of the war, right?
And other things and so on.
But I think just to recognize that it's not an illusory thing.
The magical thinking will not save you.
It's just something we have to ride out.
Yeah, I would also point out, too, though, JC, that the hysteria is not, in my experience, I talk to JT about this all the time, it drives me crazy, because I don't think, not everybody, and probably the majority of people, are not sharing in the hysteria, or this anxiety, because I go to the store, and you're around people, and it's like, It's like surreal.
Do you realize why gas is $4 a gallon?
Do you understand why milk is $4 a gallon?
Do you know why you can't?
A hundred bucks does not buy a family a week's worth of food anymore, maybe two days' worth of food?
Do you understand what's happening?
I don't think the average person really understands or even cares.
Well, no. A knowledge of economics is like a knowledge of astronomy.
It's nice to know how the universe works, but it's not like it's going to do you any particular good in your daily life.
So most people, of course, rationally allocate their resources and watch Law& Order, right?
Which, of course, is… Nonsense show, but at least it's entertaining, right?
So, no, people, they just – it's hard to make those connections if you're not trained in it.
And, of course, public schools studiously avoid teaching anyone even the basics of economics because informed voters are that much harder to manage, right?
Well, informed voter is kind of an oxymoron.
Right. Well put.
Now, Joe, let me ask you, being that you're from New York City, in your scope of influence there, I mean, does the people that you're around, that you contact with, I mean, do they have this anxiety that the world's coming to an end in September of 2008?
No, I don't think they really have an anxiety that the world's coming to an end.
But there is a little bit of worry because a lot of these finance people are insecure in their jobs.
And every single one guy in finance supports a massive number of lawyers, artists, grocery store people, expensive coffee sellers, and stuff like that.
So it's like If one of these guys loses his job, there's a noticeable impact on all the businesses everywhere else.
So, in New York, I think there's both like a sigh of relief because there's thought that real estate prices will go down, they'll stop rocketing into outer space.
But there's also a fear that the economy won't be able to handle a lot of problems in finance, just in terms of local New York-focused issues.
That's my take on it.
Yeah, so are they putting together, are you finding that there's maybe more people that are putting two and two together and are realizing that the main problem here is the fact that there isn't a real money system?
No, I don't think they're coming anywhere close to that.
No, not at all. I think that...
Then it truly is a sad situation.
You would think... At least there would be some positive if more people were waking up to the fact that there is no monetary system.
That the problem is you've got a group of...
A very, very small group of people who are creating funny money out of thin air and loaning it.
I think there's an instinctual understanding of that.
Particularly, I mean, there are a few big sectors in New York.
I mean, the focus, I think, is the media, there's the arts, there's There's like the anti-economy sector.
You know, the government here in New York is larger than anywhere else.
It's the largest municipal government.
It might be.
I don't know. San Francisco might rival it.
I'm not really sure. But it's up there, you know.
So I think there's a lot of nervousness in the media in particular.
And all these very vocal sectors in New York are kind of worried about it.
So that's probably...
Why it's more in my consciousness.
Yeah, well, that is the municipal capital of the world.
I think the municipal code in New York is larger than in most states.
Oh, certainly. It probably is.
I personally don't see how anybody could start a business in Manhattan.
It's not even an issue of money.
It's how do you comply with all the super regulations?
Yeah, well, actually, you know how they start businesses in Manhattan?
I mean, major companies.
Because, I mean, it would be lunatic to start to put your headquarters in Manhattan because of the taxes and all that.
I mean, it just makes so much more sense to go to Jersey City or a place like that.
But what happens is they get sweetheart deals from the government.
I mean, this is what Giuliani would love to do, what Bloomberg loves to do, is they say, oh, we'll give you X... 100 million dollars or 10 million dollars or whatever tax credit if you put your headquarters here.
So that's how they do it.
I mean, that's the only way is that the mafia lets you.
Well, there's got to be a damn good reason to go to Jersey.
Okay, that's all I've got to say on that.
You've really got to have...
All that lower property values, you know?
Yeah, you've got to have a real compelling interest to go there.
No offense to any of my New Jersey listeners.
That's what the government does, right?
I mean, that's why it's that way.
It's because the taxes are so high so they can give favors, so they can manipulate these.
Absolutely. It's the same thing with why they have business licenses and why they have vocation licenses, like licensing doctors and things like that.
Correct. It's the same old story.
Well, Joe, I do appreciate the call.
Oh, my pleasure. J.C. from NYC. Steph, one of the things I wanted to get into, we touched on before when I mentioned about the cult, maybe I want to focus on just the cult for just a moment.
Do you agree that just someone like yourself is a cult leader?
Because he's not the first one to, I don't know if he necessarily accused you of that, I have to listen to you, but you have been accused of that.
Oh, sure, yeah, absolutely.
What do you feel, what do you think about that?
Well, I'm a little disappointed.
I mean, if I'm a cult leader, I should have a whole bunch of roles in the driveway.
I should have my own island, and I believe I should be able to travel backwards through time, so...
No, but this is a standard accusation that is put forward, and I have some sympathy for it, because we do get into personal topics in philosophy.
I'm very much around the philosophy of the everyday, that philosophy is not about whether space aliens have free will, but how is it you can live a life of more virtue and integrity and freedom in your daily life?
Because the state isn't going to set you free, and so you have to find as much freedom as you can in your personal life, both to live a happy life and also to inspire other people with freedom.
It's become a personal example rather than a walking encyclopedia of libertarianism, which has never struck me as particularly free.
So because we talk about personal issues, people get alarmed and upset, right?
Because most libertarians are rigidly abstract and rigidly it's all about the state and it's not about my friends.
Freedom is not about my friends and my family and my work environment and so on.
It's about the Fed and all this stuff I can never do anything about.
So because of that, I can certainly understand why people would feel cautious about that.
Because I live off this show based on donations, I can understand that there would be some caution around that too.
But, of course, the difference is that there's nothing that I say that is ever to be considered true because I say it.
And that's different from your average, even remotely competent cult leader that I'm a philosopher, which means reason and evidence win for everyone.
It has nothing to do with me personally.
I happen to have a good fertility of imagination and good language skills to come up with theories or propositions, but they stand or fall based on the application of reason and evidence.
And so it's not a cult of personality because it has nothing to do with my personality and fundamentally it has nothing to do with me at all.
It's just a community of people who use reason and evidence to sort out Some of their challenging beliefs in life situations.
So, yes, it's about the abstracts, but the application is in the personal, and that's, I think, what gets people most alarmed.
Yeah, well, this whole idea, here's what I get from what Paul says, is that anybody who has a set of beliefs that are different than his, because he certainly has his beliefs, Okay, so if you're talking not necessarily about specifics, whether it's religious or this, that, you know, as far as, because I don't think Paul was making a distinction about, you know, a cult that's necessarily just religious in the, you know, just that it's a belief system.
You know, just look, if you hold a belief system, that's what I get.
Maybe I'm wrong. But if you hold a certain set of beliefs and you teach them, you're a cult leader, if you're listening to a show like this, then you're a member of a cult.
The audience to this show is a cult.
Just because a lot of idiots are certain of things doesn't mean that everyone who's certain of things is an idiot.
That would be my short advice.
Very well put.
My name is Mark Stephens. My guest today is Stefan Molyneux, FreeDomainRadio.com.
Join us at 512-646-1984.
Online and on demand.
This is We The People Radio Network.
We The People Radio Network.
to the No State Project.
I'm your host, Mark Stevens, coming to you live.
Fortified compound here in Southern California, where it is absolutely beautiful.
I've got to tell you, the winds up in Idaho.
I guess it kind of reminded me of the way...
Well, it didn't remind me, but I figured that's the way it would be for my guest, Stefan Molyneux of FreeDomainRadio.com.
Welcome back, Steph. Thanks.
I do appreciate that.
Because I work at home now, the only wins I really experience are after a heavy Mexican lunch.
So I'm sure that you had a bit more of the outdoorsy feel than I did.
Oh, my gosh.
Well, you know, because we have the funeral going on and trying to get your mind off of that and everything, the kids have built this.
And I can YouTube this.
We got on video, some of our younger children built like a three-foot...
Volcano that they made, so we had the idea, well, you know, I have a nephew who's a chemist, you know, and that's always good, you know, you get some immature adults together with certain chemicals, certain household chemicals and dry ice, you know, and the volcano there, it lends itself to some destruction.
And so we made some, so the volcano didn't come out too good, but we started making those dry ice bombs.
Ah, nice. So it was nice to be in a place like Idaho where your neighbor's not calling the cops because the next neighbor is a football field away.
But the wind, gosh, I can't tell.
Oh, man, was it cold.
You have no idea. Brutally cold.
So I'm glad to be back down here in the south where it is not.
And the snow, it's not supposed to snow in April.
You know what? It sounds almost identical to as if you'd taken a trip to Jupiter or something.
You know, the way you talk about it.
It was a wilderness. There was wind.
There was snow. It hailed frogs.
It just sounds like you visited the Old Testament or something like that.
Well, you know, for me, I'm from Long Island, even though somebody recently thought he was putting me down and making fun of me by saying I'm a backcountry hick.
And I'm a backcountry hick?
I've got to tell you, I'm from Long Island.
We're not usually described as backcountry or hicks.
But, yeah, hey, I'm an Arizona guy now.
I go to Idaho, and it's just too cold.
And to me, yeah, it's like going to another planet.
It is. Oh, Idaho's too cold for you, says the guy from...
Canada with all of the sympathy in his frozen little heart, let's say.
I appreciate that.
You being a fellow cult leader.
He was mentioning something about cult.
And I would imagine that to Paul in Delaware, everyone who does not believe the same as he is maybe a cult.
It just strikes me that somebody who is a cult leader is somebody who needs to control the thought, you know, control other people's thought processes and, of course, their actions.
I mean, that sounds like a pretty general description of a cult leader.
Wouldn't you agree? Yeah, I mean it's the substitution of basically the argument from authority, right?
It's the substitution of my personal judgment for other people's independent thinking.
And of course that is the opposite of philosophy.
Any good teacher, any good philosopher is going to try and awaken the excitement of thinking and of using reason and evidence in Others, and my success, I always measure, every day I measure my success by how many people have I made enthusiastic about thinking for themselves.
It's certainly got nothing to do with accepting anything that I say on faith.
That would be ridiculous. But I think what happens is that people get exposed when they're younger.
I think it's, I mean, my wife constantly reminds me of this, and she's right as she is about everything, that it all starts in childhood.
It all starts with the family.
This stuff doesn't just roll into people's personalities when they get to be 30 or whatever.
And I know that when I was a kid, all of the people who were the most certain in my life, particularly in the educational system, and I went to a boarding school and I went to public schools in different countries, and this was a universal phenomenon, that the people who were the most certain were almost always the most irrational.
Whether these were priests or whether these were the teachers or headmasters in my educational environment.
And whenever you would question them, they would get aggressive.
And so people who come across as really certain, like some of the more diehard truthers or the people who believe that global warming is man-made and all this kind of stuff, they get really kind of tense about things.
And so what happens is people associate certainty with dominance, that people who are certain are not actually right, but they just use that certainty to dominate others.
So anytime someone comes along and says, I am certain, even if it's I'm certain that 2 plus 2 is 4 and the earth is round, you're called a propagandist and culty because that's been their experience with certainty in the past.
But there is certainty which is culty, of course, but then there is certainty like 2 plus 2 is 4 and the world is round and gases expand when heated, which has to do with scientific evidence and rational truth.
And that is very different from the kind of certainty.
In fact, it's the complete opposite of the certainty that really troubles people, and rightly so.
Wow, you know, that's great because I always rate my success by how many phone calls I get like Rick from California that call the show and say I'm a genius.
Well, I'm still working on trying to raise my vanity to your level, but I'm not having any successes yet, so I'm still working on it.
Yeah, it's just like I2, someone on the form had put a sarcasm meter.
Well, the difference is, though, Mark, I've been humbled by hair loss.
And after that, you know, you're pretty much like, okay, well, I guess I'll go with reason and evidence because I can't even talk my follicles into doing anything.
So it's just that you have to go through something humbling to bow yourself down to that kind of stuff.
And for you, maybe it'll happen.
Well, you know, I think it's already happened because I've had a virtual, you know, I've had it happen virtually because, according to some people, I don't have hair.
So, you know, it's like, here I go and put things in explicit language, you know, like, and number it so that you can point out the logical fallacy or the factual inaccuracy, and all they come back with is, my hair plugs are in too deep.
Oh, yeah. No, I got – just not to elevate any YouTube comments to anything serious, but I get – you're fat and also you claim to be into the free market but your wife supports your show and therefore that's not the free market, right? Like maybe my wife is the government.
Now, it's true. I do live in a chicktatorship but that's very different from an actual government.
And so, to me, it's not true.
But even if it were true, what would be the problem with that?
If my wife believes in me so much and what I'm doing so much that she'd want to fund what it is that my dream is, I mean, why would that be a bad thing?
Isn't support from your loved ones a very integral part of happiness?
Yeah, I know you're not supposed to elevate.
You're right. It's not just YouTube comments, because I have people email me also, and no one has ever been able to point out a factual inaccuracy in what was presented in the videos or in any of my articles.
It's not from a vanity standpoint, but I mean, I have no problem getting into a discourse and discussing, hey, we don't screen the calls here.
You know, so like what Paul was saying, he could do the same thing with other, you know, he can call the Michael Wiener show.
It doesn't mean he's going to get through because he can't get through the screener.
We don't screen the calls here.
I just, what I don't get, the personal attacks are stupid.
It just shows me that when someone comes back and says you're fat or makes a comment like that, they cannot show a flaw in your facts or your logic.
Yeah, I mean, fundamentally, it's a cry for help.
Help, I can't think and I can't get up.
Whether you want to help people is up to you, but it's a cry for help.
Help, I'm trapped in a bear trap of my own broken brain.
It's what people are saying.
I don't choose to help a lot of these people.
I will occasionally, but...
I just view that – it's just a cry for help.
It's like I can't think and I don't even know that.
That's how lost I am. And the tragedy, of course, is that these are people who were raised in a government-run school system where they were never taught about reason and evidence and how to think and how to logically discourse.
They may have been taught in fundamentalist religious schools where – Faith and mere emotional assertion was considered a reasonable substitute for rational evidence and reason.
They may have been part of particular culty kind of groups of which there are quite a few on the internet.
And so these are just people who've gone through this process of having their minds dismantled over time and it's unpleasant but it is a sad thing to see.
Well, you need to get through their thick skulls somehow.
Sounds like I've managed to reach you with compassion on this subject.
I think so. My name is Mark Stevens with my guest, Devon Molyneux of freedomainradio.com.
If you want to join us today, please call 512-646-1984.
That's 5.2-646-1984.
That's 5.2-646-1984.
Yeah, welcome back.
This is No Save Project.
I'm your host, Mark Stevens.
And my guest today is a fellow countryman, in a sense, well, born in the same country as Gary Moore.
His name is Stefan Molyneux of freedomainradio.com.
Welcome back to the show, Steph. Thank you so much, Mark.
It's great to be here. Two outstanding guitar players came from Ireland.
I know there's more than just two, but two that come to mind, of course, Gary Moore and, of course, Rory Gallagher.
Oh, I'm so...
You know, I totally... My mind just...
I thought Nana Muscuri was where you were going with that, but I guess we were just on slightly different...
But parallel tracks there, but sorry, go on.
I just blew your mind, didn't I? I'm just kidding.
You're shown how uncultured I really am, apparently.
I have no idea what you're talking about at this point.
Nana Muscuri, famous Irish guitarist, no?
My wife is a Greek, so...
Not helping me at all, but I'll have to look into that.
I'm more on... Well, you've heard what...
What's on your show. But don't worry.
There is about an 89-year-old Greek man, one guy who's listening who found that really funny.
So that goes out to him.
You, not so much.
But go on. Yeah, well, again, I'm just, you know, some parts from Long Island, so what do we know?
I want to discuss about children and a very real concern that I know people have about teaching the kids proper logic, reason, and rationality, teaching the truth about government.
And, you know, when you have young children, you get to teach these things and the concern that people have is, well, they have to put the kids in public school because, well, they'd get shot if they didn't.
So, how do you teach children that are, especially under 10, these truths without having to, in a way that you don't have to worry that you're going to be called in by the principal, the teacher, you know, To answer why your child is saying there's no monetary system or this isn't real money.
Right, right. No, it's a challenging problem.
My particular approach with my wife and I want to have kids, and our plan is we're going to hire someone on Halloween to take half our kids' candy at night.
And we feel that that is going to be quite an effective way of getting the nature of government across from them.
And then when they come home and cry about it, we'll actually present them a bill that says that they now owe us the remainder of that candy because we've been deficit candy financing.
And that really is going to be the way that we're going to try and teach them until the authorities take our children away.
But when the authorities do take our children away, they will be well-educated in certain principles.
I'm just kidding. Oh, so you're just using a more advanced system of trauma to teach children how to accept Right.
And then, of course, when the children do get taken away from us by the government, they'll also understand the nature of the government as well as they're torn from our hands.
So there's ways of doing it that's going to toughen them up.
But no, I mean, in all seriousness, it is a challenging question.
The truth of the matter is that you don't have to send your children to public school.
You just have to pay. They don't care if you send your kids.
They just want the money, right? Well, that's not true, Steph.
It's not true. But there's homeschooling all over the place in the U.S., right?
No. If you have permission to do that, and you've, you know, like in California, there's a recent thing in California where the teacher, the parents have to be licensed.
So not everywhere, there are some places, so I know, you could say it's easy, just move, not everybody's able to move because of their job and whatnot.
So I just want to look at more broad, look at it more in a broad sense that's more of, because yes, the obvious, The ideal, of course, yeah, pull your kids out of these concentration, absolutely.
But for a lot of people, that's not the case.
And even if you can pull them out of those schools, you also have the concern, well, I guess it's the whole thing that you talk about, you know, being ostracized, you know, well, you shouldn't be friends with these people.
But as far as, you know, your children are going to interact with other people.
They're going to interact with government officials.
And so... You know, it's not one of these things where, like with my kids, I just do, you know, I say, look, you don't talk to someone so much about this, you know?
Right, right, right. Yeah, it's a tough call.
Obviously, you want your kids to succeed in the general context of society.
You don't want your definition of successful parenting to be, my kids now live in a fortified compound in Montana.
For you, you already have a fortified compound, but for those of us who are a little more exposed, let's say, it is a challenging question.
I think you want to teach them the truth.
About the world.
But I think, and this is the challenge, and this is what we were talking about with reference to the earlier rather abrasive caller, that you want to teach them to love the ignorance that is around them.
And that is a really – I mean libertarians, we're not so good at that.
I mean we're really good at lecturing people about how the world should be.
But there's a lot of frustration and indignation in the libertarian community and I think among certain libertarian parents that I've seen as well.
This is the world that we've inherited and it is a tough – It's a tough supertanker to turn around towards the truth, but are we really going to complain about being born in the dawn of the 21st century where you and I are being around at this time, where you and I can have these conversations, where I can have conference calls.
We do a call-in show every Sunday afternoon where I can talk with people around the world for free, where I can make a living being… A podcast internet philosopher.
I mean, it is a brave new world that we live in and the tools for freedom have never been more powerful and the tools for truth have never been more powerful.
I can run a quasi-Socratic philosophical conversation with tens of thousands of people around the world.
It's never possible before.
It was completely incomprehensible to do before.
So I think that finding a way to recognize that people have not been taught how to think and they've been punished for thinking and that's created a lot of distortion in the personality.
Most people's minds are like those Chinese women's feet that were sort of bent in and tortured in on themselves in this foot binding practice that was in late 19th century China.
They're kind of broken and learning to feel affection for people And see them as the victims of a society because very few people are natural philosophers or natural libertarians.
They just do what they're taught. And they're taught all of these terrible and bad things and they're punished for thinking and they're attacked for being independent.
And they grow up kind of frightened and angry and scared and trying to find a way to have affection for the best that is within people, even if you can't reach it, even if they turn out to be irremediable or irretrievable jerks.
Finding a way to love the potential for truth within people, that's the thing I want to teach my kids the most.
That you are privileged to be in a position where you have some really great foundational aspects of the truth and the ability to think.
And lots of people don't get that.
It's like trying to teach your kids sympathy for the poor kids in Ethiopia.
It's like they're not sitting there dying because they're too lazy to get food, right?
That you happen to be born here, they happen to be born there.
Kids born in reasonable households.
should be taught reason and they should be taught sympathy for those who weren't and that doesn't mean be everyone's patsy or anything like that but you can't change the world productively if you can't love it either.
Well that's true and also when you talk about this is the world we've inherited is accepting the world as it is because if you don't take the world for what it is and the way people are you can't really be affected from bringing about any kind of change Yeah, nature to be commanded has to be obeyed.
And that's a rule of science and a rule of engineering that we don't expect to reinvent physics where we want to build a bridge.
We just accept the way things are.
And you simply can't have an effect that is positive and long-lasting in the world by rejecting the realities of the people around you.
And the reality is that people are tense and people are frightened.
And when you ask people to take a step towards the truth… It's really, really a terrifying proposition that threatens all of their personal relationships.
It may threaten their work relationships.
It may threaten their marriage.
They may feel bad about what they've done to their kids.
It is a very emotionally volatile situation.
Not many people are natural-born libertarians or anarchists.
And so if we are that way, we should – I mean I didn't earn this.
I just happened to read Rand when I was like 15.
It was like, well, that makes sense.
I didn't invent it. Right.
I also didn't invent my emotional response to it.
And some people read Rand and throw it away in disgust.
So recognizing the fortune that I've had to have the kind of personality and capacities that I have, you know, if you're a good doctor, you should dedicate yourself to healing the sick.
And if the people don't even know they're sick, then you're not going to get anywhere.
And that's why I was saying to this guy, don't call them cult members and stuff like that.
Because going up to a guy who believes that he's happy and productive and successful and insulting him is just going to do nothing to bring the cause of truth about.
Right. There's a very important lesson or idea in NLP that it's like the core of NLP. And there are no resistant clients, only inflexible communicators.
And people like Paul want to flip that around and say, well, you don't believe this.
You're the problem. No, no, no.
You're not communicating to them in an effective way.
It's like someone who's Greek, you know, you're trying to speak to someone who's Greek.
And you speak English only.
You're thinking the guy who's Greek is the one with the problem.
No, no. I'll speak louder, right?
Yeah, exactly.
My name is Mark Stevens. My guest today is a regular guest every third Saturday of the month, Stefan Molyneux of FreeDomainRadio.com.
You can join us here in the last segment by calling 512-646-1984.
That's 512-646-1984.
or we'll be back in just a moment.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I'm your host and cult leader for this last segment of the show.
Welcome everyone back.
Welcome back. My guest today and fellow cult leader, Stefan Molyneux of FreeDomainRadio.com.
Welcome back. Hello, Mark.
I send you the psychic mental handshake of fellow cult leaders, so I hope that you got that.
Done. Got it. Oh, wait.
Sorry, you were just tickling my leg with that one.
If you could move up a little. Sorry, go on.
You know, Saphon, really there's supposed to be a little bit of discretion and to be discreet here.
This is a family show.
Let's not offend any of our cult members.
Come on. We've got to...
Right, and like the regular mainstream media, which is more of a family show, if you know what I mean.
Yeah, I want to point something out, and it's not because I don't want anyone to think of beating up on somebody.
I think it's a very important point for communication, so that's why I'm going to bring this up.
And tell us in one sentence, of course, what we all hear about the definition of insanity.
It's doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Yeah. And it's worse getting mad about the results.
Because in NLP, of course, since I was talking about that, one of the things that they say, look, if you're not getting the result that you want, do anything else.
Because you've got a much greater chance of getting a different result or getting the result that you want by doing anything other than what you're doing at the moment.
Because it's just not working. Well, sorry.
This is the most amazing thing about libertarians as a whole.
And this is the part that causes my head to virtually eat itself.
So I'll try and be happy this is not a live webcam show.
But the thing about libertarians is that we say to people, you should adapt to a stateless or minimal state society.
And we say to people, you should give up being a lawyer and you should give up being a state worker and the public school teacher should accept the restrictions that may come about through privatizing.
Everybody in the world should adapt to freedom because we view the necessary adaptation as necessary and important and helpful and virtuous.
But libertarians are sometimes the most rigid people on the face of this planet.
It's like doing Pilates with an Easter Island statue, sometimes getting these So we're all about everybody else should change their entire life, their entire setup, and their entire concept of society, but we can't adapt to not calling them cult people.
You know, like, that's the amazing thing, and that's why libertarianism, I think, fundamentally has yet to make much of a mark intellectually, is that it lacks the very flexibility and adherence to reason and evidence that we claim is our sole motivation.
Right. And I want to have a friend on the line.
We've got a couple calls. I want to get to everybody, so we've got to go quick.
We only have about eight minutes left.
A friend, Barry, in Arizona.
Barry, welcome to the No Stay Project.
Mark, Stefan, how's it going?
Going good. I have a thick skull already, but I'm trying to find a skull that I want to belong to, and I want to see if you guys could help me out.
And my choices are this.
I could be part of a cult that doesn't force its will on somebody, or I could be part of a cult that does force its will on somebody, and I'm not sure what to choose.
Go on. Since you're from Arizona...
What's that?
Since you're from Arizona, I'll take this, if you don't mind, Steph.
Yeah. We're sharing cult responsibilities.
You can have this one!
That's a great point.
He always makes the distinction that we're all You know, cult members.
But I agree with you.
Because he's thinking that a cult is really anybody who, you know, pretty much anyone who doesn't believe the way he does, unless I'm misunderstanding him.
So yeah, I'd rather be part of a non-violent one.
Yeah, but the benefits of being a cult member in a violent cult, like, you know, government, sheriff's department, whatever, is that, you know, you have job security because you get to, you know, We're good to go.
I don't know. I just thought maybe you guys could help me out a little bit.
Because, I mean, if we're going to talk about cults and people talking about libertarianism being a cult, why don't we talk about the other type of cult, which is one that is openly a cult that wears the uniforms and takes the...
Well, and public schools, right?
What's that? Sorry to interrupt.
I was just saying, when people come running at me with the cult accusation, I'd say, well, if you're really concerned about indoctrination, what about a system that takes children out of their homes by force for 14 years and pumps them full of all sorts of brain-destroying nonsense?
Why don't you go and talk about public schools?
Well, because it's easier to pick on libertarians than it is to take on a school board, right?
Right, exactly. But, I mean, it just really blows my mind that people don't see government as a cult, you know?
That they'll take people that have a certain belief or philosophy about life that, you know, lean more toward freedom and independence or 911 truth or whatever, you know, and call that a cult.
But they don't look at government like a cult because it has an official stamp on it that's sanctioned by the so-called state, you know?
It just really blows my mind.
So, I guess that's more my thick-headed, you know, thinking, so...
Anyways, just wanted to throw that out there.
You guys should probably take another call.
I do appreciate that, Barry.
Being from Arizona and the guitar player, yeah, he has no choice but to be thick-headed.
I've been accused of that myself many times.
All right, we have Richie in New Orleans.
Richie, welcome to the No Stay Project.
Hey, you guys. First time caller.
In the tradition of liberty and the patriot movement and all that, what do you guys know about any legitimate means of adjusting your status to not pay income tax?
Well, adjusting status, they don't care what you call yourself.
They're always going to label you a taxpayer.
It is part of the program.
If anyone wants to really see just how programmed these people are, like with the Franchise Tax Board or whatnot, just give them a call and speak to somebody.
You can take the number off of one of their little forms and just give them a call.
And when they say taxpayer, just correct them and say, well, excuse me, I'm not a taxpayer.
They won't know necessarily. Most of them don't know how to respond.
Well, are there any people who actually do have a status that don't pay taxes, like the, what do they call them, the Amish or Indian tribes or whatever?
Is there a status that does allow you to avoid income tax?
Well, I'm glad the Amish had to get a specific...
Exemption, legal exemption for Social Security for religious purposes.
I think they avoid paying income tax because they don't use money.
Okay, let's go that way then.
Let's move on that angle.
Well, you know, bartering is actually legally in the United States for many years because I believe so many people had been doing that.
And I think it's great.
If somebody wanted to start something and promote it on the show and on the website, I'd be happy to help with that.
Wasn't there this guy who printed all of these silver coins about six months ago and the Nazis went in and confiscated all of that?
Because they were using that as a currency.
Yeah, I don't know.
Yeah, I don't think they were necessarily Nazis.
I understand why you're saying it.
You know who I'm talking about. I know.
Yeah, they had actually been in business for about ten years, and it was about six months ago they had all their silver stolen.
Yeah, and then e-gold.
Well, that's the thing. They made a number of different, what I believe, were errors in calling it putting the Statue of Liberty on there and actually going after the Federal Reserve.
Now, that may have been...
I can't say for sure that that's what prompted them to do what they did.
How they just been using silver and silver certificates, receipts, warehouse receipts, and just left all the political stuff off there.
I don't... They probably still would have been raided.
They probably would have all their stuff taken.
This is a very real threat that any time you do something that threatens their system of control, they're going to come in after you eventually.
And that's what happened here, and it happened with Egold also.
They shut the Egold guys down by accusing them of child pornography and stuff like that.
Can you imagine going into Trump Towers where somebody went in with child pornography and they seized the entire Trump Tower?
You also want to make sure that – I mean there's lots of things you can do to minimize taxes, self-employment and so on, deductions.
I think you want to make sure that you're not going to spend more time and energy avoiding taxes than you would be just by minimizing them.
I mean, just from a pure pragmatic standpoint, it's not your fault that you're taxed.
It's not your fault that we inherited this system where money is taken from you if you want to participate in economic society.
Money is taken from you by force and used for evil purposes.
I mean, it's not your fault morally.
And so I would say don't surrender more of your freedom than necessary and live a life of anxiety and fear and manipulation in order to avoid taxes which can be very legitimately minimized legally.
But if you can't deal in barter and in other property, as in gold, silver, beans, rice, oil, honey, whatever, you can actually avoid the tax, right?
Because they can't tax.
Well, but how much time, sorry, the question is how much time are you going to be spending doing all of that versus just using cash and paying some minimal amount of tax?
I guess that's your adjusted lifestyle, you know?
Yeah. All right, gentlemen, thank you.
Richard, I do appreciate the call.
And Rick, in California, I'm sorry we're not going to be able to get to you today.
We're out of time. Stefan, great having you on again.
I want you to give the contact information and the books that you have.
Yeah, three free books available, audiobooks, PDFs.
You can download them right away, freedomainradio.com forward slash free dot html.
Thank you very much, Michael.
It was great show. I appreciate you coming on again, Steph.
My name is Mark Stephens. This has been the No State Project again for August 19, 2008.
And as usual, government is nothing more than a group of men and women providing a service at the barrel of a gun.
If they were interested in protecting your life, liberty, and property, well, damn it, they would be the first ones looking to take it.
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