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Feb. 14, 2008 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:50:53

981 RTR Reader Conference Call (follow up to 977)

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	Hello. Hi, Matt.
	Hello. How's it going?
	Oh, pretty good.
	For the most part.
	Good stuff.
	Okay, so this is also a good test of the old server.
	And we can see whether this all works or not.
	So, who called the meeting today?
	I think Nathan did.
	I did. Alright.
	Yeah. Well, the reason I... I suppose you're wondering why I called you all here.
	It's these feelings that...
	That involve the RTR thing.
	You know, you pretty much described them pretty much dead on, everything that I was thinking and feeling.
	And perhaps not to the extent that I would, because it seems like now included with all this is the kind of isolation of Of it all.
	It sort of comes with it.
	And I was trying to explain this to my therapist the other day and I couldn't.
	I couldn't explain these feelings without...
	I could say what I was feeling, but I couldn't explain why without having to explain this whole thing.
	Or at least explaining what was going on for me or what, you know...
	Does that make sense? I can certainly understand it, but go on.
	So, I'm finding it really hard to share this with anyone.
	Right. Especially the person that I'm supposed to be sharing all my feelings and thoughts with, the therapist, you know.
	It seems kind of...
	Well, it's a particularly curious problem because...
	Because if you...
	If you start to unwind all this stuff in the therapist's office, she's going to freak out, right?
	Right. I end up having to defend, you know, my decisions with Mark and all that stuff, and I can't explain...
	Well, you see, my friend is...
	This guy in Canada has come up with the...
	He solved the problems of the universe, you know, and he came up with RTR and all this stuff, and...
	You know, I've read it and now I'm just kind of scared.
	Yeah, just explain it to her that there's a guy on the internet who takes your money and suggests that you disconnect from your friends and family.
	Right. That should help.
	Sorry, also, could I mention just technically, if you're not speaking, if you could mute your microphone, there's a nice little background hiss.
	Did that go away? I can totally understand that it is a real challenge, right?
	Yeah. I think that's the main thing I'm dealing with right now.
	Greg and I were talking last night about this whole thing.
	It's just... I felt really frustrated that it was like a choice between...
	This is kind of extreme because it was a few other things coupled in with all this, but it was like the sort of humiliation involved with being friends with Mark, the being treated badly, the stuff like that.
	And I still felt isolated, but at least I was around warm bodies, you know.
	And there's a choice between isolation and that, and just isolation by itself.
	And there's of course no real choice there, because naturally you're going to choose, well I'd rather just have the isolation, if that's my only choice.
	And I think we went through, you know, some ideas and it ended up, you know, the isolation is kind of a gateway to better people coming along, but I don't...
	That's like a theory, and, you know, I've never seen it really happen with anyone.
	I mean... Can I ask you a question, Nate?
	What? Does your therapist actually use anything like that technique?
	Because mine actually does, but she doesn't call it by that name.
	Sorry, which technique?
	The real-time relationship approach of kind of probing you for your emotional experience in the moment.
	She did that once or twice.
	Asked me how I was feeling right then.
	Which I was, you know, I feel a lot more comfortable with this therapist just in general, I guess.
	There's just a lot more credibility to her.
	She didn't have any religious books on the wall or anything like that like the other one did.
	She's not given me any reason to be defensive about my decisions.
	I don't want to come out sounding like some grandiose person when I say, well, the whole world is, you know, not the whole world, but the large majority of people are stuck in these illusions and these mythologies, and I can't explain that.
	But that's what's causing me to feel isolated and alone and angry and anxious and like I'm in the depths of some forest where I can't turn back.
	That will certainly produce some fascinating results on various psychological assessments, I'll tell you that.
	Well, but you don't want to end up in a situation where you're training your therapist in philosophy, right?
	Right, I don't want to do that.
	No, you're paying for this, right?
	So you want to get as much reception.
	You want to say, well, I believe that there's a huge amount of mythology in the world and people don't connect because they believe things that aren't true.
	And then she's going to ask, like, what sort of things?
	And you're going to have to get into, I mean, you don't want to get into a whole intellectual debate with your therapist, right?
	Right. So, I mean, your reticence or hesitation seems to me entirely rational.
	Of course. Yeah, it's not that I don't doubt it's rational.
	It's that how do I talk about my feelings without explaining what's been going on?
	Right. Well, does anybody else have any comments?
	I mean, I have a few ideas, but I don't want to jump in if other people have comments or questions.
	Just a quick comment or question, I guess.
	Okay.
	What's wrong with talking to Charlotte and Greg about this stuff?
	Why do you have to talk to your therapist about it?
	Or why do you feel compelled to talk to your therapist about it?
	Well, because otherwise it's pointless.
	You mean therapy. If you're not dealing with your core issues, then what are you dealing with, right?
	Right. I'm paying $160 a session for nothing.
	Well, for hiding. And actually, it's interesting you put it that way, Nate, because I've had some of the same questions floating around in my head, too.
	Right. Paying $150 a session just to have chats with somebody.
	Right. And to beat around the bush.
	Right. I've had a very similar kind of experience with my therapist as well in regards to this stuff.
	It seems a lot of the time we'll start and kind of the first 20 or 30 minutes we'll be talking about the feelings and whatever.
	And then when I try to explain them, it'll take up kind of the rest of the session, turning it into kind of a philosophy-type discussion.
	And just, you know, completely getting away from anything relevant and just becoming really abstract.
	So, yeah, I can definitely understand what you're talking about.
	And that does the opposite, in a sense, of helping, right?
	Like, when you come out of that kind of situation, you don't feel like you've made advances or satisfied or got your money's worth, right?
	Right. Not in the way I feel...
	Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
	No, it's just that like last night, I was talking to Greg and Charlotte and I felt better than I do walking out of the therapist's office because I was able to actually, they know what's, they know everything.
	They know what's going on.
	Right. Right.
	Well, I mean, just out of curiosity, I mean, because I've suggested, along with Christina, that people do therapy.
	But, of course, if FDR is better, then why would I? Sorry, somebody's got to turn their mic off.
	It sounds like there's a rabbit in the wire.
	Oh, I like to fidget.
	Go on. So, I mean, why do you think that we've said that therapy is important?
	I mean, this is not an uncommon response, right, that people have for it.
	But what is the value of it?
	I mean, assuming that you can get through this issue, what is the value?
	There isn't. I think there is.
	I think there is. But, of course, that's not going to be particularly helpful if other people don't either, right?
	Because otherwise it would be like, Steph, why are you telling us to go to therapy if therapy is worse than what you're doing and is a waste of time and money?
	Why don't you just say, don't go to therapy and send me the money instead?
	Because obviously that would be nice, right?
	In my own case, I've focused entirely and only on two specific goals that I'm aiming at, so that way I don't have to get into all sorts of Generalized discussions on metaphysics and ethics and all that sort of stuff.
	It can stay focused on specific aspects of my own personality that I want to change, and that way I don't have to deal with all this stuff that's going on here at FDR.
	I just leave it at FDR.
	We work through it on our own.
	Right.
	Right, right.
	And just use therapy as the tool that you can use it for, right, which is outside of this environment.
	Right.
	Thank you.
	Well, Steph, because you were...
	You know, you're like the starting place.
	I mean, there was nobody dealing with this before you were.
	Therapy obviously worked for you because you were able to work through these problems with them.
	You didn't have to Explain all this stuff because it hadn't really formed yet.
	And then you realized everything that you had to do and then you had to deal with the same kind of isolation to drop all the bad relationships and then what did you do to solve the problem?
	You created FDR. That's the theory that we had going last night.
	Right, right. And so what I had to do Was to stand for a truth, I think.
	Not a truth, but stand for the truth in the face of overwhelming skepticism and dissociation and hostile...
	Like, particularly early on and particularly when I moved from politics to the personal world.
	Oh, that's still...
	Not me.
	So the point of FDR is not to create a community of inward-facing people.
	Right? So, the challenge with FDR is that we learn through this conversation with each other and on the board and on Sunday shows and so on.
	We learn through this conversation.
	But the entire purpose in the long run for me, which is all about helping other people be free, is to go out into the world and to change it.
	And that requires that we stand for what is true in the face of overwhelming skepticism and cynicism and hostility and indifference and scorn and resentment and contempt and anger and put-downs and hostility and, and, and, right?
	Right.
	So one of the reasons that therapy is so enormously helpful in this situation is that you get to stand for a truth in an environment where somebody cannot attack you.
	Right?
	There's no point just standing here and talking about FDR or philosophy just with FDR people, right?
	In my view, like in the long run.
	Like, we've got a world to say, which means we've got to get the hell out there.
	So, the reason that therapy is so important is you have to find a way to frame what we're doing here in your mind such that it will change other people.
	And the problem is, I think, and I'm going to just put this in stronger terms than I think is absolutely true, but I think you guys still feel like this conversation is kind of freaky.
	Kind of weird, kind of alternative, kind of out there, kind of subterranean, kind of freaky, weird, right?
	And so it's like you're saying, well, I've got this fetish for rabbits, see?
	And you don't know how to explain it.
	Can I suggest an alternative view of that?
	It's not that I see this conversation as weird and freaky.
	It's that I know that everyone around me sees this conversation as weird and freaky.
	But that's up to you.
	That's up to you.
	See, we view the world out there as a big frightening place where people have a lot of power and they're very scary and they're very aggressive.
	We view ourselves as the huddled truth seekers in a wild storm of irrationality, right?
	But the truth of the matter is that people don't have any reference to reality other than the conviction of the person they're talking to.
	They have no reference to reality.
	Let me just say that again because it's so important.
	They have no reference to reality other than the convictions of the person they're talking to.
	So if you think that other people are going to think it's weird, they'll think it's weird.
	Oh.
	How do you not think other people are going to think it's weird?
	Well, the first thing that you have to do is to get that what we're doing here is not weird.
	Hmm. Well, and it's not.
	Common sense, really.
	Well, and this is the challenge of the next phase of the conversation, right?
	Which is, how do we get that what we're doing is not weird?
	That this is not just some wacky, strange, alternative, other-dimensional, whatever, whatever, right?
	How do we stand up in the face of a supposed storm of irrationality?
	How do we stand up and calm it, right?
	How do we part the Red Sea of craziness?
	How do we, you know, calm the hurricane of irrationality?
	How do we face skepticism with certainty, without fear, right?
	Right.
	Well, and there's really...
	Then what you're saying is that the therapeutic environment is really the only place that you can start that process.
	Yeah, if you can't do it there, you can't do it anywhere because that's an environment where you're paying.
	They bloody well have to listen to you and they can't attack you.
	And that's where people are struggling, right?
	Sorry to interrupt, but that's where people are struggling, right?
	Which is, how do I frame this discussion with people so that it's not weird?
	Because it's not weird to me, right?
	And I think that's why the conversation got so successful, right?
	Is that my just relentless non-weirdness is really freaking people out, right?
	Well, I mean, I don't see it as weird.
	I mean, otherwise I wouldn't be here.
	Well, I don't think that's true, Greg, entirely.
	I don't think that's true entirely, because some of the RTR challenges that you've had over the past couple of months come because you snap out of the conversation, right?
	So at some level, you must view it as weird.
	Okay. Well, I don't want to be unfair.
	I mean... No, I'm mulling the idea over in my head.
	I'm not...
	Well, what do you mean by snap out of the conversation?
	Well, I mean in the symposium, right?
	When you had stuff that you wanted to say but decided not to?
	Oh, yeah. That must have been because you felt that it was inappropriate or wrong or bad or something like that, right?
	You're right. You're right.
	That's a good point. That's a very good point.
	So, I mean, how do we de-weird what we're doing?
	Well, the problem is that we view the world as crazy and dominant and powerful and so on, and we are flickering candle-in-the-wind flames of truth.
	And this, of course, is our childhoods.
	It is not our futures.
	Because when we were kids, that was the case, that we had the truth And our parents were all powerful and crazy and whatever, whatever, right?
	But that's not our future. That's just the past, right?
	That's just our history. How do you turn the candle flame into an underwater torch?
	Well, I think you have to recognize that what we're saying is what everyone is saying.
	Like, when you say...
	Because if I had a therapist now and I was talking to them, right?
	I'd say something like this.
	This is sort of how I would explain it to them if they said, well, I don't understand this philosophy that you're talking about.
	And I said, well, I would say something like this.
	I don't want to talk about the philosophical aspects of it here because this is not the environment for that.
	But I'll tell you what I want out of this.
	I want to turn shit into gold.
	I want to take the negatives of my history and turn them into a positive, not just for me, but for everyone that I run into contact with.
	And what I mean by that is, because I was both lied to and, in a sense, forced to lie in my family environment, to not be honest to my own experience and so on, because of all of that, I would like to go to the, in a sense, to the other extreme, if you want to call it an extreme.
	And I want to go for total honesty with people.
	Right? And I want to have my relationships, and I don't mean like little white lies, like, you know, I don't care about that, but I'm talking about the real honesty about who I am and what I think and what I feel.
	I want to share that with people.
	Honesty is a good thing, and that doesn't mean I'm going to burst into tears every business meeting that I have, but where I have any kind of intimate relations, I want to be open, and I want to be honest with people, and I want to express how I feel, and I want to be curious about how they feel.
	Now, you tell me, any therapist on the planet who says that that's a bad idea is not a therapist.
	Can I say something about therapy and family?
	Yes Oh, okay.
	Pretty much every therapist that I've ever been to, and partially because my parents were always paying for it or it was ordered by a judge or whatever, is they would be very pro-family, and they've always worked towards me pushing down whatever objections that I had to the family and, you know, sucking it up, staying in the program.
	Sorry to drop, but would they say that you should lie to your family?
	Would that be their advice?
	Yes, actually. Really?
	More or less. What would they say? Well, you know, I'd say that I was terrified all the time.
	And, you know, they'd tell me, well, you know, you're wrong.
	Your parents really love you.
	This is something that I heard all the time.
	It's that, you know, I've spoken to your parents, and I know they really love you.
	You know, they really, really love you.
	Sorry, were these African therapists, or, like, what kind of...
	No, no, I mean, you know, therapists in Brooklyn, Manhattan, whatever, you know.
	Real people. These are normal...
	This is what I experienced pretty often.
	I went to family therapy, too.
	I mean, I got the same kind of crap.
	Right, right.
	But there's a market for that.
	There's absolutely a market for that through the school systems.
	Yeah, like I'm trying to, I don't know, I do know that Christina is trying to not work with teenagers because it's just too agonizing to look at the family structures.
	So I don't know, I can't tell, but I will tell you that a therapist, even a therapist who's pro-family is not going, like if you say, I'm scared of my family, then they may say, well your family loves you and so on, and say, well should I be honest about my feelings with my family?
	No therapist is going to say no, right?
	Well, I don't know.
	One thing that I brought up to a therapist that I saw recently was that my dad raped my mother.
	And I know this from a couple different sources.
	One of them is her. I don't know if it's absolutely 100% true, but I suspect even if it wasn't, there was some horrible abuse there.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Even if it wasn't true at all, then you have a mother who falsely claims rape, which is sick enough, right?
	So go on. Right.
	And when I told him this, you know, he really, really evaded it and really encouraged me to not think of it at all.
	He said, don't think of that.
	Well, he would change the subject.
	So he didn't say, and sorry, I'm not trying to play games with you, I really want to understand.
	He didn't say, you have to put that out of your mind and not think of it, but he did it implicitly by changing the subject.
	Both. Both, really.
	Sorry, both really. So he actually said, you need to not think about that.
	Yeah. Well, I mean, that's shocking to me.
	I mean, there's no therapist that I've ever heard of, and granted I've not seen a whole lot of therapists, who would say, you need to not deal with emotional things.
	You need to not deal with what happened.
	Yeah, that's... I think it's more common than you think.
	Well, that's pretty far out there.
	I mean, as far as I'm concerned, right?
	And maybe these are Christian people, maybe they're paid by the state, or maybe they're paid by parents, or whatever.
	Well, I mean, I don't want to be offensive, but I mean, every single therapist I've ever had has been Jewish.
	It's nothing against Jewish people, because all my friends are Jewish people.
	I know this has come up in...
	but they weren't Christians, at least.
	Well, I mean, whether they're Christians or not, it'd still be religious.
	It's coming from a religious tradition.
	Right, right, right.
	But even, again, to me, even Jewish people or Jewish therapists, I can't imagine them actually saying, you should not deal with your feelings, you should pretend things don't exist that do exist, and so on.
	Oh, I mean, that's been my experience.
	But, I mean, my parents were paying for it or it was ordered by a judge because that's what happens when your parents are going through a very long divorce is, you know, you have to go through therapy, that sort of stuff.
	I don't really know what would happen if I paid for therapy myself.
	I mean, it would probably be very different because, I mean, there's a who's paying the bills aspect of it that I think is unavoidable.
	Now, these aren't things that will occur as adults, right?
	For us. If you go to a therapist and the therapist says you need to reject your feelings, then that therapist is insane, right?
	And to be fair, neither of the two that I've had were like that at all, or are like that at all.
	They're not. I mean, that is such a foundational aspect of any kind of Professional therapy that you have to not reject your feelings.
	That is the one thing that is generally understood by all therapists.
	The one thing that is understood in psychology is that the repression of feelings produces mental ill health.
	That's just such a basic thing, right?
	So, there may be therapists who will manipulate, who will evade, but I can't imagine, and again, I'm not saying anybody's not telling the truth here, but it just seems to be unimaginable that any therapist would say, reject your feelings and lie to people.
	I could see the potential for that as a kid being shoveled off to a therapist by a school system or a parent, but I can't imagine if you're an adult walking into a therapist's office plunking down the money that they're going to do that to you.
	I was 19 when this happened, so two years ago, as a condition for getting help on loans, you were like, okay, you've got to go to a therapist.
	So that's the context of it.
	And I'm just trying to explain why I'm sort of nervous about going to therapy again, because every single time I've been to a therapist, it's been some flavor of horrible experience.
	Right, right.
	But of course, as an adult now, you may have a different approach to that, right?
	I mean, you may actually influence that to some degree as an adult now with firmer convictions and more independence, or independence of any kind.
	So, for me, if you're going to go to a therapist, then you need to work, I mean, I would suggest that you work on that which a therapist is supposed to be good at.
	It doesn't mean he will be good at it, but it's what he's supposed to be good at.
	It should be the bare minimum of his training or her training.
	It's that you're supposed to be honest with your feelings to people and you're not supposed to repress your emotions.
	If a therapist says that's not the case, then you're just dealing with a quack.
	Then you're just going to a lung doctor who gives you some stogies and says, smoke these, everything will be fine.
	Then you're just dealing with a complete quack.
	But if you are focused on working with a therapist and those basic principles are there, then what we're doing is not weird.
	When you go to anybody in this world who is not currently insane, and you say, do you think that I should be honest with my feelings to those around me, or I should be honest with those around me, should I be honest with those I am close to, what will people say? Well, of course they're going to say yes.
	Right. I mean, it's sort of a moral imperative.
	Well, no one's going to say, no, you should lie to people, right?
	Right, because they're going to, I mean, they'd be horrified to hear themselves say something like that, right?
	In a moral sense.
	Right, and this is what I mean when I say that what we're doing here is not weird.
	I mean, weird stuff is lizard men inhabited the planet.
	Let's cut our balls off to go join a comet in the sky.
	We're going to worship a dead Jewish guy who walked on the water.
	That shit is weird.
	And this is what I mean.
	There has to be a reorienting of our own souls so that we point at reason and reality, not at people's opinions.
	Our compass has got to be reason, evidence, reality, and so on.
	Not what other people think.
	That is second-handing.
	That is social metaphysics.
	That's exactly what we have been talking about being the bad thing.
	Sorry, please mute if you're not talking.
	What's up? Please mute.
	You're making a lot of noise. Oh, that was just on my arm or something.
	Yeah, it's still loud. So...
	We need to focus ourselves not at other people, but at reality.
	And the reality, obviously, that we've been working with is truth and reason and evidence from the beginning.
	But the reality is also that UPB is not something that we are imposing on other people.
	Let's just talk about UPB for a sec.
	So, UPB is not an alien theory that we are imposing upon people from the outside.
	It's not like the theory of relativity, where it's like, you know, time slows down when you get faster and people are like, whoa, that's freaky shit, right?
	UPB is what we're all born with.
	And you can see this when you look at two or three or four-year-olds playing with each other.
	They use moral arguments.
	They use don't be hypocritical.
	As I said before, a guy that I used to work with, his kid who was two and a half, when he said to his kid, you shouldn't throw things.
	And then he would throw a piece of paper into the garbage.
	And the kid would, at two and a half, immediately say, but Dad, you said that you shouldn't throw things.
	So which is it, right?
	This is something we're all going with.
	Sorry? I mean, people, even adults, are using it all around us all the time, every day, so it's not like...
	I mean, all you're doing is just exposing it, making it explicit what people are doing.
	Yeah, I mean, we're reaching into that which people already agree with.
	Everybody agrees with us already.
	Everybody completely and totally agrees with us already.
	Now, they don't like all the implications.
	They don't like it being applied consistently.
	They've got all these sorts of problems.
	But what we're doing is we're not bringing weird outside beliefs into people's minds.
	We are bringing the truth that they already believe right back to them in a consistent way.
	And yes, there's a lot of emotional volatility and fear and so on.
	But we're not doing anything freaky.
	We're not doing anything bizarre.
	I mean, what is the freaky ass morality that we've come up with?
	Don't steal, don't rape, don't kill, don't assault.
	Right? I mean, is that really that freaky?
	We're not saying that there's no such thing as property and the dictatorship of the proletariat will set us free.
	That's some freaky shit, right?
	We're not saying, you know, there should be a little group of people we give all the guns on the planet to to make society peaceful.
	That is some seriously freaky shit, right?
	But what we're saying is not at all freaky.
	This is kindergarten lessons.
	Share or be nice. Right?
	This is kindergarten stuff.
	Don't hit people. Don't take their stuff.
	Well, and the fact that we'd be afraid to speak up for that, for fear of negative opinions of that, even in a therapeutic environment,
	this is one of the reasons why my approach has been more of a doctor-heal-thyself kind of strategy in therapy, because you can't really You can't really be successful at that until you're confident with yourself, right? Well, I certainly would agree with that, but, I mean, Greg, you still have to pull off a successful RTR in the moment, right?
	Yes. Right, so the physician-heal-thyself stuff, if it's going to work, you need to start pulling the rabbit out of the hat, so to speak, right, if it's to become credible?
	Right. Well, that's what I'm saying about, like, with my own situation.
	I mean, I don't know how it is for Nate, but with my own situation, that's one of the reasons why I've been kind of dealing with things separately in therapy.
	Well, just in terms of achieving what you want to achieve, that hasn't clicked yet, right?
	That hasn't worked? That's true.
	I mean, that's, again, this is not, I mean, we all have our own process and our own progress in someone, but you would still do a fair amount of retroactive ass-kicking, right, when you realize, oh, you know, missed, right?
	Yeah. So, you must think that it's freaky at some point.
	And if we go from UPB to RTR, when you feel something, clearly it has an effect on the person that you're interacting with, whether you say it or not.
	That's just the basic reality.
	And so, if you say to anybody, if I am supposed to be close to someone, should I tell them what I'm feeling or should I lie to them?
	Nobody is going to say, yes, you should lie to the people that you're close to.
	Do you see how non-freaky what we're doing is?
	That's just so hard to keep in my head.
	Yeah.
	Now, again, when we talk about the everyone is your fellow slave and the state is each other, I mean, yeah, but that's nothing to do with therapy, right?
	Therapy is, should you be honest about how you feel to the people that you claim to be close to?
	No human being, let alone any...
	Hitler himself would stand and swear on a stack of Bibles that yes, you should.
	There's nobody on the planet who's going to disagree with us about UPB and RTR. There may be people who disagree about the stateless society and this and that, but there's nobody on the planet who's going to say...
	Murder is good, and you should lie to the people you're close to, unless they're a determinist.
	Right? It's so fundamentally not freaky, what we're doing.
	Does that make, I mean, I just want to try and get that, because that's where I've been coming from, right?
	And I've been trying to keep, I've always tried to keep that in my mind.
	You know, that's why I always say to people who get mad at me, it's like, hey, prove me wrong, you know?
	Go for it.
	I'm more than happy, right?
	Huh.
	But if you think it's weird, if you think that we're some far-out band of intergalactic morality inventors, then you're not even going to be audible over your spacesuit, you know, as you sort of ponder and pad down among the mere mortals.
	I bring you news from the gods, right?
	I mean, that's how it works, right?
	What we're doing... And this is what I mean when I say we sort of have to relax into the truth.
	Because I think that people are looking to will this stuff, right?
	I've got to push this stuff out to the world.
	No! You relax into the truth.
	This is not something that we will.
	This is not something that we push.
	Because the content is immaterial.
	The process is all.
	The methodology is all.
	Like science, right? Left.
	Left. I'm sorry. So, we can totally relax.
	Because I do get a sense that as we start to move, or as I start to sort of kettle prod people a little bit out into the world, right?
	Or, you know, with this RTR stuff in particular, the people kind of tense, right?
	People kind of like, sphincters tightening, can't seem to focus, pounding headache, migraines, stress, tension, you know, bowel upsets.
	But we don't have to push this out.
	I mean, obviously you've got to be comfortable in your own skin.
	And you are not a proselytizer.
	None of you are. I'm not.
	I'm not trying to tell people what is true.
	I'm trying to say reason and evidence is needed for truth.
	And let's use some of this reason and evidence to try and figure out some truths that we can actually live with.
	That's great. And obviously a basic truth is reason and evidence and honesty with the people that you claim to be close to.
	That's all, you know, put it into practice, right?
	There's no point thinking about it all if you don't act on it.
	But it's so fundamentally not freaky, right?
	If somebody's upsetting you, like you're out with a friend and he's upsetting you, saying to your friend, you know, I feel upset.
	I don't know why, but I feel a little bit upset.
	Can we talk about it, please? That is not freaky, right?
	Am I making any sense here at all?
	Well, freaky is a...
	I mean, that's a sort of judgment of a situation, right?
	Or of a statement, or of a thought, or of a...
	No, it's a feeling. A perception, right?
	No, it's a feeling that people have about this conversation, right?
	Freaky is not a feeling.
	Freaky is a judgment. Sorry, you're right.
	Fear is the feeling. Right.
	Fear is the feeling. So it's so important for us to figure out what are we actually afraid of?
	What is so scary about RTR? What is so scary about UPB? What is so scary about philosophy?
	And I've been pounding this on the last few listener conversations, so we might as well talk about it here too.
	Why are we so scared? Well, sorry, go ahead.
	No, go ahead. I think it means giving up the narrative that you've used to keep your life moving forward.
	No, sorry to interrupt.
	Sorry, I've just got to say no to that up front, because you all have given that up anyway.
	That's like, fuck, third podcast.
	I mean, forget that. That's like two years ago, right?
	Like, you've already made the leap.
	Everybody, at least on this call, has already made the leap to reason and evidence and honesty, right?
	To all of the values that are accepted by the planet.
	We're not giving up our narrative here.
	It's already happened, right? Well, not in terms of everybody here, but in terms of, you know, how do we make it seem less scary to other people?
	Well, I think they're afraid...
	Because of what I just said, I mean, not necessarily...
	Because of our mythology that we'd have to give up?
	Why would they be afraid if we have to give up our mythology?
	I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't quite understand it.
	Why they'd be afraid of living a life of truth?
	Because they're very, very wedded to living a life that's not true.
	Sorry, I thought they were afraid of us giving up our mythology, but they're afraid of giving up their mythology, right?
	Yeah, but why should that scare us?
	That's what I'm asking, right?
	Why would their fear frighten us?
	If they're afraid, and I think that's probably quite right, but why would their fear affect us, right?
	I mean, to the point where we get whatever, right?
	Yeah, because when they're afraid of us, that means they're probably about to attack us.
	Well, now it makes sense.
	We're afraid of their fear.
	Right. Okay, why are we afraid of their fear?
	Because... Look how Mark reacted when I was honest about my feelings with him.
	I mean, it's just...
	But wait, wait.
	That was before this understanding.
	Right? So if his fear and your fear and the escalation and all this and that...
	Right? Because if you guys are right, then my listener conversations should never happen, right?
	Because, I mean, you've heard me a million times.
	I blow people out of the water, right?
	Typically, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I put their heads up their own ass with a flashlight, right?
	Right? Who welcomes that?
	Well, shockingly, everyone, right?
	Not one person has gotten that angry at me in a listener conversation.
	I mean, unless you remember something that I can't.
	But it's one reason why I do them.
	Well, and it's interesting, too, that the people who do get that angry won't talk to you on the phone.
	Yeah, they know what they know, right?
	Right. And the people who come across all tough beforehand are usually as meek as lambs on the telephone, right?
	Yep, that's absolutely true.
	So, if you're saying that there's some...
	And look, I was attacked for speaking the truth.
	Look, I'm not trying to pump myself up.
	I'm just trying to sort of pump or say, you know, me, me hero, you cowards or anything like that.
	It's just that... If you're going to look at...
	You can't look at the cause and effect as if it's coming from somebody else, because then it should happen to everyone, right?
	Like, if you cut everyone's leg off, everybody has no leg, right?
	But it can't be the case that the fear is coming from the actions of other people, because then it should happen to me as well, right?
	Right.
	But I do think that it's significant that we're all sort of having a similar experience at this level.
	Right.
	Sure. Right?
	That it's not just one or two of us that are freaking out.
	It's like a whole bunch.
	Oh, sure. Absolutely. Absolutely.
	And so I'm not saying it's entirely subjective, but it's also not an absolute.
	So there is something in common, though.
	Yes, there is something in common.
	And that's something is...
	Well, it's helplessness if you want to know, right?
	It's helplessness.
	It's the surrender of power to somebody else.
	And it's saying that I have no capacity to affect the outcome of this interaction.
	I am completely at their mercy.
	Whereas if you say, there's a way that I can interact where I can speak the truth and not be attacked.
	Oh, and in that way it's kind of a reproduction of childhood.
	Yeah, of course. I mean, and this is what I say.
	This is about the past, not about the future, right?
	So you say, because in the past, every time you spoke the truth, every time I spoke the truth, I was attacked.
	People just fucked me up, right?
	And it was horrible, so I didn't do it, right?
	So, truth equals attack.
	Sure, I understand that that's what happens, right?
	But the difference, of course, now is that that doesn't have to be, in fact, how it is, right?
	Now, how the situation unfolds, how the interaction unfolds Is almost uniformly under your control.
	Right? It's more like a car you're driving than weather you're experiencing.
	Right? But we look at it like the weather.
	Well, if it's thundering and lightning, what can I do?
	All I can do is hide under a rock, right?
	But that's not how it is.
	You're right. If the car is going too fast, take your foot off the gas.
	Yeah, you know, slow down, change directions, and plan your trip, right?
	Right. Hey guys, especially Nate and Greg, I have a question about your current experience, emotions.
	Sure. Do you guys feel, because I feel this sort of embarrassment about feeling this fear and helplessness, and Sorry, you feel embarrassed.
	Do you have anything? Is he cutting out for anyone else?
	Yeah, he's cutting out pretty bad.
	Yeah, you might want to see if you've got anything else running on your computer.
	Sorry to interrupt, but what I've been pounding on so much lately with people is that, and you remember this with James and his mom, right?
	That he felt a kind of horror because his mom's fiancée or whatever boyfriend had died and he wasn't going to go to the funeral, so he felt all this horror.
	And as I talked about it with him in the chat window, it's not his horror.
	It's her horror. She's going to be exposed, right, as a bad mother, as a hypocrite.
	She's going to be shamed and embarrassed because her own son is not coming to this funeral, right?
	Right. So, when you say you feel embarrassed, I'm not sure that we can be sure that it's your feelings.
	Can you tell me more about that?
	Well, what if the other person is embarrassed?
	What if it's the other person that is embarrassed?
	Right. Yeah, I see what you're saying, I think.
	Like, we're all very sensitive people.
	And we're all very sensitive to the emotional cues that other people are giving us, right?
	So I don't know if we can be sure in these situations, like in the situations where people feel fear about being honest, I don't know if it's your fear or their fear.
	I knew with James that it wasn't his horror.
	This is follow the benefit.
	If we are honest people, if we are honest men and women, why would we feel fear about telling the truth?
	What have we got to lose?
	Nothing. Why? Because we're honest.
	So, if we follow the benefit, who will feel fear when we speak the truth?
	Those who lie.
	Of course! If we're not embarrassed about our own feelings, but recognize them and respect them for the incredible gift that they are, we won't feel embarrassed about our feelings.
	People who hide from them will...
	People who hate their feelings or fear their feelings or repress their own feelings, they will feel anxiety when somebody openly expresses his feelings or her feelings.
	I've used the metaphor a million times, right?
	It's worth really pondering it.
	We have a counterfeit detecting machine and we have real currency.
	Why would we feel anxiety when going up to someone and saying, someone who says my currency is good, testing their currency?
	So we feel anxiety because either we're...
	We're feeling anxiety because they're worried about The counter-fake detection machine?
	Yeah. Well, I don't know.
	I don't really feel like I had a lot of anxiety doing RTR after I finished the book.
	I mean, I put the book down, and then I turned over to my right, and then I had a conversation, like one of the ones in the book, with my fiancé.
	But I don't know if I really had a ton of anxiety about it, because I just put down the book and did it.
	Right. Well, but that's not with everyone.
	I'm not saying every time we do RTR we have anxiety.
	I don't feel it that much anymore, and you didn't feel it with your girlfriend, or your fiancé, sorry.
	Well, I mean, it was a painful conversation.
	And when we had a few other conversations later in the night and this afternoon, it was painful and very confusing.
	I mean, it was a little bit like taking drugs.
	If I could describe it that way.
	This is JC, right?
	Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry, weren't you the other day in the chat window talking about how a baby is effectively a tumor?
	Um... Yeah.
	Okay, and I'm just saying that, and the reason that I bring that up is, you know, maybe you're right, right?
	I mean, it's not my particular opinion, but in that situation, I don't know that other people were enjoying that aspect of the conversation.
	You know, just sort of objective feedback, right?
	Yeah, I know. I was being sort of a jerk.
	I was getting really frustrated there.
	Right, and did you say, I'm getting really frustrated?
	Yeah. No.
	No, I didn't. I was only like a third through the book at that point, though.
	Well, but you were enough in the book to know that you should be honest about what you're feeling, right?
	Yeah, I guess. I'm sorry to be picking on you, right?
	Everybody says RTR is easy.
	No, you should pick on me about it.
	I don't think I really said that it was easy.
	When I was talking about the conversation I had, I know I screwed up.
	That's fine. Look, we all do that, but did you then come back and apologize to people later?
	No, I didn't. I don't think I really saw them much later in the day.
	But I kind of felt weird about it.
	But you could have sent them a message.
	I could have, yeah. And why didn't you?
	If you felt that you were...
	I'm not saying you were, because I wasn't in on the chat, but if you felt that you were being rude or whatever to people, which I don't know, right?
	But if you felt that, why wouldn't you say, sorry?
	Sorry. Maybe I just have an empathy deficit.
	I think that's very likely.
	Well, I don't know.
	I don't know. But, I mean, I'm just saying, like you said, you didn't feel any anxiety with RTR. Oh, I said, like, not a gap between trying it out and doing it.
	I'm sorry. Because I wasn't...
	I mean, I didn't just put the book down for hours and then not try it with a relationship that I valued.
	I don't really know if I was being really mean during that conversation, though, because I didn't really...
	I was trying to explain why...
	I don't think the wording was very good, but I wouldn't entirely disagree with the argument I was putting forward.
	Well, no, but it's not an intellectual debate.
	This would be more around what are other people's experiences of interacting with you, right?
	Yeah.
	I think most people's experiences interacting with me are generally pretty bad.
	Okay.
	And again, that's not to pick on you.
	That's just an important thing to understand, right?
	That RTR is being curious about other people, right?
	So if you're being provocative in a debate, or perhaps a little abrupt or rude or whatever – Then RTR is to ask other people, well, what was your experience of me?
	And, you know, could I have done it better?
	And how do you feel about what I did?
	And, of course, before that is saying, when did this chat happen?
	I think it was in the...
	I don't really recall exactly.
	But I think it was...
	No, it wasn't yesterday.
	It was the day before yesterday.
	Oh, okay. Okay, I got it.
	I got it. It was the day before yesterday.
	Actually, it was before I'd even started reading the book.
	I closed the conversation.
	I was pretty frustrated. Then I started reading the book.
	Oh, I see. I see. Okay.
	Okay. Got it. Okay.
	So I was mixed up because of the time frame that you were...
	But yeah, it was before I started reading the book.
	And, well, you know, a baby's sort of like a tumor.
	I think I read that somewhere.
	It's a way to...
	I don't know...
	I'm not exactly...
	I mean, it's supposed to help people understand that it's part of the body, and if the mother doesn't want it as a part, then they should be able to remove it, and it doesn't really have moral context.
	No, no, no. Look, I'm not debating the content of it, right?
	I'm just... I'm always concerned...
	This is my particular fetish, right, whether it's right or wrong.
	I'm always concerned when people say that they didn't have much problem with RTR. Well, I don't think that's really what I was saying.
	I was just trying to get out that I didn't really have a long period before I wanted to start trying it and actually trying it.
	Sorry, what you said was I didn't feel any anxiety about doing RTR, or I didn't feel much anxiety, but I just turned and did it.
	Yeah, I mean, it was more like, I don't know, doing skydiving or something.
	Most people would feel a fair amount of anxiety doing skydiving.
	I know I did, so that may not be the best example.
	Well, I mean, just sort of, oh, I'm anxious, I don't care, I'm jumping.
	Sort of like a reaction.
	Okay, sorry, I'm going to just stop because I feel like we're kind of going in circles here.
	Yeah, I'm not terribly coherent, so...
	No, no, you're very coherent.
	It feels to me like you sort of say stuff and then alter it a little bit because of whatever.
	So, I mean, it's neither here nor there.
	It's just my experience is that it's hard to sort of make progress because I'm not trying to pick on you or anything.
	I'm just sort of pointing out that the people who say RTR is easy, and there have been a number of them, I'm just pointing it out because usually what happens is, or at least so far, it's been 100% of what happens is that people are being just a little cocky.
	And I know that I do that.
	You know, as well. But it may not be as easy as is generally perceived.
	Well, I don't think I really...
	I mean, I don't really think I... What I meant was that it was easy in the way that you're taking it because, I mean, I spent a lot of hours, you know, bawling my eyes out last night.
	So it wasn't easy in that sense.
	Okay. Okay, good.
	And sorry, I just didn't want to get us too far off track here, but I appreciate your responses.
	So basically, I guess I'm sort of...
	And the reason why we sort of went on this tangent, so to speak, was that I was saying that I think that when we are honest with people...
	We feel their fear.
	80-90% of communication is non-verbal.
	And this can even occur on the telephone.
	I've tried to get my antennae to be pretty good when I'm on a Skype chat with someone who is giving me only verbal cues or non-cues.
	But I think that it is a really...
	People communicate an enormous amount, right, in the tone of their voice, in the pauses, or the rapidity of their responses, and whether the responses have emotional content or not.
	And so I think that when we start to speak the truth, I think that people feel it coming, like an earthquake or something, like they feel it, like, oh God, here comes the truth, the truth, somebody's bringing out the truth.
	And I think that they feel anxious and I think that through their body language or through their verbal communication or verbal non-communication or whatever, through whether they interrupt, through whether they lean forward and listen attentively, through whether they order another drink or whether they change the topic or whether they just shrug with their mouth first, they just shrug tightly or whatever.
	Through situations like that, I think that we get a very quick read on their anxiety.
	And I think that we feel their anxiety.
	And that's how they stop us from continuing.
	Sorry, go on. How do you know...
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	No, go ahead. Go ahead, Nate.
	I was like, how do you know that?
	I mean, how do you know that that's their anxiety?
	Well, do you feel anxious when you hear me speak the truth?
	I mean, directly, right?
	I mean, I don't think so, right?
	Not at all. I eat it up.
	Yeah, so you don't feel anxiety around the truth, right?
	No. I feel anxiety speaking the truth.
	No, you don't feel anxiety speaking the truth, because that would be a universal situation, right?
	And certainly in the case that you and I have had, while you may not have always enjoyed speaking the truth, particularly the dark side conversation, but you did not feel kind of horror and anxiety about it, right?
	Right. No, I didn't at all.
	And I didn't feel anxiety about speaking any truth last night with Greg or anybody on FDR at least.
	So it's definitely true that I don't feel anxiety while speaking the truth on the boards with you guys.
	Okay, so it's fair to say, I think, that you don't feel anxiety when you are speaking the truth to somebody who does not feel anxiety about the truth.
	Okay, well then, could it be said that his therapist has anxiety about the truth?
	Yeah, I mean, this is sort of where we're heading, right?
	But we don't know, because he's refrained from speaking the truth, and there's still uncertainty about it, right?
	This is drive-through to closure, right?
	But he refrains because he thinks he feels anxiety, right?
	But we don't see, what we're saying is that we don't know whether that anxiety is objective or subjective.
	And what I mean by that is that we don't, like when somebody, when guest 666 comes into the chat window, right?
	Everybody tenses up, right?
	Sure. Who is this person?
	Where are they from? What's their perspective, right?
	Like, there's a guy in right now who's a subjectivist, right?
	And everyone's abandoned us and gone to talk to the subjectivist, right?
	And they're tense about it, right?
	And we don't know, right?
	But we do know that they're not already in the conversation.
	They listen to the podcast, they don't understand, I mean, other than in a very gut level, the framework that we work with and so on, right?
	Sure, sure. So, if somebody doesn't have the FDR logo on their forehead, then we don't know whether or not they're going to be receptive to the truth, right?
	Like, if we see that lack of vetting on their forehead, so to speak, the guest 666...
	Okay. Can I ask a question, then?
	Let me just finish the thought, and it's all yours.
	So, we don't know, right?
	We don't know if Nate is feeling anxiety with his therapist because he knows that his therapist doesn't understand FDR and he feels that FDR is freaky at some level, right?
	Okay. To give a silly example, right?
	So I liked the album The Wall when I was a kid, when I was a teenager, in my early teens.
	And my brother didn't like my musical choices at all, right?
	So I wouldn't play stuff that I liked to him, whether he'd heard it or not before.
	And so there was some objectivity around that.
	But what that did was it left me with a caution about playing songs that I really liked to everyone.
	But that's not fair, right?
	Other people may be perfectly interested in my musical preferences or whatever, right?
	Sure. So if Nate feels that the conversation is freaky at some level and that this person doesn't understand the conversation and therefore will attack him, then we don't know if he's refraining.
	Because of that. Like, we've had people who've come into the Sunday chats who know nothing about what we're doing here, and I've had involved conversations with them.
	Sometimes they've made headway, and sometimes they haven't, but they've never attacked me, right?
	Right. So, the difference is that if they start to feel anxious, I don't own their anxiety.
	That's their feeling. So let me ask Nate a question then.
	Nate, what would you say is the difference between what you felt with Mark and what you feel with your therapist in terms of bringing this stuff all forward to either party?
	Why were you actually willing to subject yourself to Mark's opinion, but you're not willing to subject yourself to your therapist's opinion, for example?
	Oh, uh...
	I don't know.
	That's a tough question.
	Well, because he had more power with Mark than he has with his therapist.
	Mark's not an authority to you, right, Nate?
	Right. So it's less like your parents, right?
	It's less like your parents, more like a sibling or something.
	Right. Like my older brother.
	In fact, exactly like my older brother.
	Right, right. So there's a different template, right?
	Right. Right. There is a different template.
	But the point I'm driving at is that you feel...
	Is it true that you feel anxiety when this subject comes up with either person, right?
	With either Mark or your therapist?
	Is it the exact same anxiety or is it a different kind of anxiety?
	Different. Definitely different.
	Yeah, because you speak with Mark but not with your therapist, right?
	Right. It's the anxiety I feel with Maisie.
	And maybe this is a male-female thing.
	I don't know.
	Because the therapist is female.
	Maisie is female. There is a similarity between the anxieties there.
	But I think there's more anxiety in that I don't know what she's going to say, because I know what Maisie's going to say.
	I don't know what the therapist is going to say.
	I've only been three sessions.
	So far, she...
	She hasn't given me any indication that I'm completely, fully, consciously aware of what she's going to say.
	I mean, she's been perfectly helpful in many areas that I haven't beaded around in the bush.
	So actually that kind of lends support to Steph's argument because if that's the case, then your anxiety could only be… At some level, your own insecurity with what we're talking about here.
	Yeah, Nate, what you're afraid of is being rejected by your therapist, right?
	Right. Right.
	But look, I mean, this is something that...
	I have lots of complex arguments, but this is a very simple one, and I apologize for its simplicity and perhaps its rudeness, but it's just sort of what I think, right?
	Yeah. Right.
	Right. Right. You know what it's like?
	It's like the hypersensitivity, right?
	Like, my mom, right, had no problem belting my brother and I when we were children.
	When I got big enough and I pushed her, she was appalled.
	Appalled, I tell you.
	Shocked, you know, that I would lay a hand on her in anger, right?
	I mean, that's kind of gross, right?
	Yeah. And so we can't be...
	I think we can't rationally be rejecting lots of people, and this is probably where you get tangled up, right?
	This very philosophy is going to end up with a lot of people feeling rejected, right?
	Family, friends, and so on, right?
	And so we're saying, you know, sorry, but rejection is something that you, you know, suck it up, right?
	I mean, if you're wrong, you get rejected, right?
	But then I don't think we can say at the same time, well, I must avoid honesty because I'm so terrified of being rejected.
	Does that make sense? It makes sense when I think I'm terrified of being rejected, but being in philosophy, I'm rejecting quite a bit.
	I'm being quite discriminating as far as truth goes and as far as being accurate goes.
	Yeah, like you should handle being rejected.
	You should handle me rejecting your core values or quote values, right?
	You should handle me rejecting your statism, your family cult, your religion, your this, your that, right?
	You should handle me stripping out and gutting what you consider to be your core values, right?
	But I'm afraid of anybody frowning at me.
	Do you see what I mean? That is very non-UPB. That is very non-UPB, right?
	I just take my certified symbol off now.
	I've been looking for an excuse to get rid of that goddamn symbol because of the trouble between us.
	But anyway. Oh no.
	That's the whole point of this call is I finally got something.
	I'm like, okay, time for a conference call.
	Because UPB is universally petty behavior, and that's really what I'm sitting on right now.
	Alright. Yeah, that makes sense.
	Like, every time the people get mad at me, and they get upset because I reject them, or this or that, like this Timothy fellow who's huffing on the board at the moment because, you know, the determinist guy, right?
	because I'm saying, look, share some of your personal life.
	Don't be such a know-it-all.
	Stop working on all of these stupid abstract topics because this is a forum about practical philosophy and calling him out when he says, nobody's ever given a reasonable definition of free will, which he said a year ago or eight months ago, and he said repeatedly ever since I've released this video or at some point I have to say, look, you've got to refute this video or stop and he said repeatedly ever since I've released this video or at some point And now he's vanished and maybe he'll come back and he'll try something else, right?
	So when people get mad at me, it's like, well, okay, so I'm rejecting you.
	I understand that.
	But I can't then be hypersensitive to being rejected, right?
	Right, that would be...
	Okay, yeah, that really does make sense.
	So this wasn't the guy that sent you the email or YouTube?
	No, no, that's another guy. It's just another doofus.
	Yeah, that guy's email was a mess.
	Well, it always is, right?
	Again, I'd love to get one of these guys to get to the core childhood root of all this stuff, but I doubt I ever will.
	But that's sort of an important thing, right?
	Like, if we're hypersensitive to rejection, but then we live by values which horrify and appall the vast majority of people, then...
	I mean, that was the dream of the way for me, right?
	Like, I didn't understand how big an impact the truth had on other people, right?
	Because once you're inside it, it's like, hey, it's just the truth, what's the big deal, right?
	But when you see it coming at you, it's like, ah, tsunami, I'm gonna die, right?
	And just looking at it from a purely static point of view, purely objective point of view, it makes no sense that you would fear rejection when you've just paid $160 to have this person sit there and listen to you for an hour, right?
	Well, it does when you remember that as a child, rejection meant death, right?
	Oh, right. Right.
	If I give you $160, Nate, to sit and listen to me on Skype for an hour, you're going to sit there and listen to me on Skype no matter what I say, right?
	Definitely. Right?
	We can do that right now if you want.
	I can use a...
	Now, Greg, can I be completely annoying at this point?
	Sure. Thanks.
	I'm going to have to point out a pattern in our interaction, which I think is important, which is that you say, well, people will not reject someone, or you shouldn't be afraid of rejection if you've paid money to attend, right? Right, well, I was just pointing out the realization.
	I just had it.
	Oh, I see, I see. Okay, sorry.
	Then I won't go on.
	My mistake. Well, what were you going to say?
	What, what, what? Well, what I was going to say is that I think that you were lacking a tad of humility, right?
	Because you were saying earlier, well, there's this, and then I said, well, but about the RTR symposium and so on, right?
	And now you're saying, I thought that you were saying, well, if you pay, you should never reject, but then you, in a sense, paid to go to the RTR symposium and then didn't pursue RTR in the actual symposium or the next day and We had an incident with James this last week which the same thing occurred and so on, right? And so I think that you have a certain opinion about where you are in this particular process that I'm not sure is fully backed up by the evidence.
	Oh, at this point I have no opinion of where I'm at in this conversation.
	I have no idea where I'm at in this conversation.
	Yes, you do. I mean, you do have an idea, right?
	Which is that you got help, you had to listen to RTR audiobook how many times?
	Let's not even talk about it, right?
	But you've still yet to, to your satisfaction, successfully pull off an RTR interaction, right?
	Yes, that's, well, that's not entirely true.
	Ash stumbled across a podcast between you and I like a year ago where the two of us had sort of done it accidentally, I guess.
	Well, sure, but I mean where you initiate and are writing the process and so on.
	And when you have a successful RTR interaction, you don't feel like you kind of had a successful RTR interaction, like you're literally evitating, right?
	Yeah. Well, I'm not sure I understand what that means, but...
	Well, you know.
	Like, it's like, you know, right?
	Like, when you finally get UPB, and I don't mean you, but when anybody finally gets UPB, and there's that click, then it's like, ah, right?
	Like, you don't kind of get UPB, right?
	And you don't kind of have an RTR interaction, right?
	No, that's true. So if you had one where, and I think for you the challenge is to stay conscious in the moment, right?
	Because you're very used to wrapping yourself around other people's insistence, so to speak, and facilitating that because that was a role that you had in your family and also in your career, right?
	Yeah, it's kind of ironic how I lined up like that.
	What do you mean? Well, I mean, in the sense that I just found a job doing what I was good at, right?
	Right, and where you were a reactor rather than an initiator, right?
	Sure, sure.
	Right. So, I mean, that's a challenge for you, right?
	Which is to let the values or the principles drive you and not react to the stimuli that is being put in by other people.
	And this is, again, it's the same thing for me, too, right?
	I mean, it's not like I'm immune to any of this stuff either, right?
	But that's sort of where I see it, right?
	Yeah, yeah. But anyway, sorry, that was slightly off track and based to some degree on a misunderstanding of what you were saying, so sorry about that.
	So what I'm trying to say is that it's other people's fears that we're feeling, not our fears.
	They're not our fears. This is the roadblocks that people who don't tell the truth throw up to people who are going to tell the truth, right?
	How do you get someone to stop telling the truth when you agree in the abstract that the truth should be told?
	You can't openly say, for God's sake, don't tell the truth.
	Lying is a value, right?
	So they have to manipulate.
	They have to go under the table.
	They have to, right? When you can't, you know, when you can't openly state your fear of the truth, because that will field you to yourself, then you have to instill emotional roadblocks in other people through manipulation, through disapproval, through frowning, through hostility, through body language, through whatever, right?
	Or bullying, outright bullying.
	Or outright bullying, absolutely.
	But you have to, the fear that you feel, you have to push onto the other person.
	So that the other person, by avoiding the fear that you're inflicting on them, will also end up avoiding the truth.
	And the only way of doing that is if the other person is willing to self-attack, right?
	That's a good point.
	If you're not willing to self-attack, you cannot be controlled.
	You cannot be manipulated except through direct force.
	Well, that's an interesting point.
	Yeah.
	That's a very interesting point.
	You cannot be manipulated if you do not self-attack.
	How... Well, what leverage would somebody have?
	What hooks would they possibly have, right?
	So it's kind of like we're...
	We start self-attacking because we don't want to be abused by...
	You know, it's like the master-slave thing.
	You don't want to be abused, so you self-attack, so you have more control.
	And it's like we've been implanted with these hooks that other people use to grab onto also, later on.
	Yeah, this is culture, this is family, this is all the stuff I talk about in RTR, the horizontal slavery, right?
	Right. It's like we have these chains around our neck, these clamps or something around our neck, and anybody can hook in and drag us around just because it's there and we let them.
	Well, yeah, but we've got to pull them out, right?
	And we do that through reason. And I'll give you a brief example if that helps, right?
	So on the latest Ron Paul video, somebody was saying...
	You know, oh, Steph, what's with this Ron Paul obsession, man?
	Like, give it a rest!
	Or whatever, right? Right.
	So, you know, obviously that's designed to wound, and that's designed to make me feel like, oh, I guess I am, you know, maybe I am jealous of Ron Paul, you know, or maybe I am obsessed, or whatever, whatever, whatever, right?
	And so if I had been prone to self-attack, then I would have felt...
	Doubt and fear, and I would have avoided, perhaps, or felt it less of a high priority to do another Ron Paul video.
	I don't know if I will, but that would have been part of my, oh, maybe I am.
	I'm going too far. I look obsessed to people, so I'm losing credibility.
	Blah-de-blah-de-blah-de-blah-de-blah, right?
	If I had that tendency.
	Now, of course, I did read that, and I felt a little bit of a stab, and then I thought, okay, so let's look at this rationally.
	I have produced a grand total of five, or six, I think, Ron Paul videos, which probably run about three hours in total, right?
	You know, people have donated $25 million to Ron Paul, right?
	Three hours of video, $25 million, right?
	Is that a really balanced way of looking at obsession or the over-investment of emotional or other kinds of resources?
	Is that reasonable, right?
	I mean, if you're going to look at these two things, one guy recording a couple of videos and a mammoth multi-10 million dollar movement that is aiming for control of the biggest army in history and the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of hours that people have poured into this, Is it right to look at me and say that I'm the one who's over-invested in this?
	Well, no, of course, it's not reasonable at all, right?
	And then I also thought, well, I have put a huge series of intellectual arguments forward.
	Has this person addressed even one of these intellectual arguments?
	It's like, well, no, he's just casting aspersions on whatever, whatever.
	So you just go through that process and say, well, compared to what?
	What's the rationality?
	And has the person actually addressed my arguments, right?
	Like the guy who writes this determinism thing that I posted today.
	Did he address one of my arguments?
	No.
	This Timothy Leary fellow, has he addressed one of my arguments?
	No.
	So I know that it's all about him.
	It's got nothing to do with me.
	He's not debating the issues.
	It's all psychologically motivated.
	I mean, that's how you know, right?
	And so when you put forward a simple argument like taxation is violence, and the person comes back with, well, yes, but we need roads.
	Or, well, no, it's not because children have to be educated.
	We're just not dealing with the argument, right?
	Right. They're also implying that you don't care about Rhodes or the kids or whatever.
	Which is kind of an argument from intimidation.
	Well, an implicit behind all of that is the fact that the person who's criticizing you isn't really interested in the truth.
	He's only interested in undermining your own sense of efficacy.
	Right, and I also say, well, if somebody doesn't want to address the arguments but rather shoot the messenger, if they then say that I have unjust and unwarranted emotional motivations for doing what I'm doing, and what they're doing is just shooting the messenger because they feel anxious, then is that something that, like they claim to be able to see so deeply into my own motivations, but are they showing even one shred of awareness of their own motivations, right?
	Right. Because if you attack the person rather than the argument, and the way that you attack the person rather than the argument is to say that what the person is saying is psychologically motivated, then you're shooting yourself in the foot, right?
	You are attacking the person for behavior which that person is not exhibiting, but you are, right?
	Right. So this is just the process that you go through with people, right?
	And there's nothing wrong with feeling fear and anxiety around people.
	I mean, that's very healthy because people can be complete jerks, right?
	So you definitely do want to not be, you know, say, well, I shouldn't feel afraid because it's their fear.
	It's like, well, no, if they're making you scared, that's important, right?
	That's important to know. And you should assume that there's some validity behind it.
	If you remain uncertain, then you should be honest, right?
	So the challenge here, Nate, is not that you feel fear with regards to your therapist.
	The challenge is that you're still going, right?
	Which means that you're ambivalent.
	So I feel fear, but I haven't said I'm scared.
	Yeah, you haven't said you're scared, and you haven't said why you're scared.
	I mean, you haven't RTR'd with this woman, despite the fact that you're paying $150 to tell the truth.
	Yeah, I realized that as I left the other day, and I'm like, oh, crotch.
	Yeah, but then, see, you self-attacked for that, right?
	Oh, yes. Dude, you've got to have some soft place to land, and it should be yourself, right?
	Yeah. Right.
	Just put it on a to-do list.
	Oh, well, it's curiosity, right?
	Rather than, oh, man, I just blew 150 bucks.
	It's like, hey, I wonder why I didn't tell the truth, right?
	I wonder why. I wonder why.
	Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know what the answer to that is.
	Well, that's okay, but that's what you're paying the therapist for, right?
	To find the answer? Well, forget about finding the answer.
	The first thing you've got to do is commit to being honest, right?
	Right. Because you know how we said there's no backup to RTR? Yeah.
	Well, it's the same is true with your therapist, right?
	Even more so. Yeah, there's no backup to that.
	Well, I mean, either be honest with people or stop having a relationship with them, particularly when you're paying $150 an hour, right?
	Right. But it's true in all relationships, right?
	We're honest with them or we don't have a relationship with them because if you're not honest with them but hang around, then you're just pretending to have a relationship the same way that religious people are pretending to have knowledge and statists are pretending to have an organized society.
	Hmm. There's no relationship without honesty.
	There's no relationship without honesty.
	So, if you have any of these relationships where you don't speak the truth, it's not a relationship.
	It's just mutual manipulation.
	I mean, we don't say it's a real economic transaction when both people are paying each other with counterfeit money, right?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	No. Well, unless they're US dollars.
	We haven't had a good fiat currency joke in here in a while, so thanks.
	So, because the whole point of this is, right, so if you break through this fear and the other person is receptive, then you know that the fear was an illusion.
	If you break through this fear and the other person attacks you, then you know that it wasn't and you leave the relationship.
	Because all we're doing is trying to get knowledge, right, through testing, through reason and evidence.
	So if they don't attack us, then we were wrong.
	Does that mean we can trust our feelings?
	Well, then you're curious and you say, I wonder why I felt fear when there was nothing to fear, right?
	So for me, like when I would share music with Christina and she'd be really interested and I'd say to myself, I wonder why I felt anxiety about sharing music with my wife.
	It's like, oh, because my brother always used to mark my musical preferences, right?
	Oh, right. Right, so the fear isn't wrong, it's just finding out where it really comes from.
	Yeah, the fear isn't wrong, it's just inappropriate to this situation, right?
	Because the fear was genuinely humiliated from my musical preferences, but it's just unjust to apply it to Christina, because Christina's interested in my musical preferences.
	Right, in that sense, it's not even really inappropriate.
	It's just you have to identify the proper source of the fear.
	Just like when you feel anger, you have to find the proper destination for it, right?
	Yeah, our emotions get screwed up because we can't leave these situations, right?
	So if we're drafted and sent to war...
	Then our fight or flight gets completely screwed up and we end up with PTSD because we're not allowed to leave combat.
	I mean, what's your first instinct when people start shooting at you is to run the fuck away, right?
	It's the same thing with my brother.
	Why would I want somebody in my life who marked my tastes and preferences?
	Well, I can't get away from him, so your emotions just get kind of whacked out, right?
	Because you're constantly being exposed to this negative stimuli that you can't escape.
	Oh, wow. I don't know why I didn't see...
	It's just like I hear the same thing in different ways all the time, and it's just...
	It's like looking at a 3D object from every angle and finding something new every three weeks.
	Yeah, it takes a long time to get over propaganda, for sure.
	And so that's how, to a certain extent, that's how the fear gets transferred from... that's how the fear gets transferred from...
	Because, like, in that situation you're talking about where you're sharing music with Christina, right?
	That wouldn't be an instance where, I mean, you're telling the truth, right?
	Because you're expressing your own preferences.
	But that wouldn't be an instance where Christina was feeling that anxious about the truth, per se.
	Right, right. I mean, she's just like, oh, this is the husband that I love who's playing me some music that he likes.
	So, great!
	You know, she likes that.
	Right. So, in that situation, the fear you're feeling isn't her fear.
	And that's how you know that...
	Oh, you're hiccuping a bit.
	Well, that's how you know that you're not feeling her fear, right?
	Because you said before that...
	Fear in the face of speaking the truth is actually feeling somebody else's fear.
	Well, that's the theory for sure, right?
	And so I have a thesis which says Christina is going to mock me if I share my musical taste with her.
	And so I feel that fear, and so then what I do is I share my musical taste with her.
	And if she mocks me, then I know that the fear was rational, right?
	Right. And if she doesn't mock me, then I have to look at where the fear came from and recognize, and it's always because of an overstimulation, where you're exposed to negative stimuli, but you can't leave.
	And that also explains the therapeutic situation that Nate was in.
	Can I ask a question?
	Sure. Okay, why is it bad if somebody thinks that your taste in music is funny?
	But that's not what I said.
	Okay, I'm confused. Sorry.
	Well, no, you just have to listen to what I said.
	Sorry to be abrupt, but what I said was to be mocked for my musical taste.
	Oh, well, I mean, what if it's just lighthearted?
	Is that really bad? I think that you're asking a question that's not being honest.
	What do you mean? Well, have you listened to any podcasts?
	Yes. Have you heard me in any Sunday shows?
	Yes. So why would you be asking me a question where I ask if light-hearted mockery is okay or not?
	I mean, isn't that a core part of what it is that I do both to myself and to other people?
	I don't know. I feel kind of uncomfortable.
	I'm not really sure... I guess just continue the conversation.
	Forget about it. No, no.
	I think it's okay to talk about what you're talking about, but this question is not directed at me, right?
	Because you have enormous amounts of evidence that I think that lighthearted joking is a very positive thing, right?
	Well, yeah. I know that.
	What you're doing is you're reframing The objection to something that is not objectionable, right?
	And you're doing that for a reason.
	So what happened for you when we were talking about this, right?
	What happened for you emotionally, right?
	You must have felt something not positive, right?
	Yeah, no, I didn't feel positive.
	And what did not feel positive?
	I don't know. I felt dumb.
	I don't know. No, I don't think that you felt dumb, because you're a very intelligent fellow.
	But let me ask you something a little bit more pointed.
	Have you ever had a history of teasing or mocking other people?
	Yes. Okay, well that makes a bit more sense then, doesn't it?
	Yeah. So you began to feel bad about maybe the history that you have of mocking people, right?
	Or teasing them. Right.
	But I don't know if all of it was...
	And sorry, so what you did was you began to feel anxious or probably guilty or bad about your history of mocking people, and so what you wanted to do was to reframe that and say, well, what I did was not mocking people, but was instead light-hearted joking, right?
	Yeah. Right, but that's not your decision to make, right?
	Like, when you're joking with people or making fun of them, it's not your decision whether they're having a good time or not, right?
	No, it's not.
	It's whose decision is it?
	Well, it's their...
	I can't control their reactions.
	Well, that's true, but you can certainly have an influence on their reactions, right?
	Right. So, have you had a history or interactions with people wherein you are making fun of them in a way that is not totally enjoyable for them?
	Yeah, sometimes.
	Sometimes I'd have a hard time telling when it was hurtful and when it was mutually fun.
	Right. And I appreciate your honesty with this.
	I really do. I know that's not an easy thing to talk about, but this is a little bit similar to what you talked about with...
	With the empathy deficit, right, that you mentioned earlier?
	Yeah. Now, are the people that you mocked or teased to their detriment, are they still around in your life?
	Like, can you contact them?
	Well, not immediately.
	I'd have to re-establish contact.
	So there's nobody in your life, your fiancé or anything, that you've ever done this to?
	Well, my sister.
	But, I mean, I haven't spoken to my sister in months.
	Well, is that because you never want to speak to her again?
	No, not really. She's 15.
	She's sort of enmeshed in the family right now, and I know it would be extremely difficult, next to impossible, to really establish contact with her without getting back into the family system.
	And is it my understanding that you've not done this to your fiancé at all?
	Um, no. Okay.
	Really not. I would tell you if I had, but I really haven't.
	I'm sure you would, but it may be worth asking her just for funsies.
	Okay. But the important thing is that, and this is the challenge with RTR, right?
	Which is that when we feel upset or anxious about something, then instead of trying to reframe the discussion to minimize the actions that we did in the past that we're not happy about or proud of, what could you have done instead?
	I could have just said what I had to say later was that it was uncomfortable.
	You could have interrupted.
	That statement made me feel uncomfortable.
	Right. Right.
	And you don't know why exactly, right?
	Yeah. Right.
	Right. Right.
	And that's the challenge of RTR, right?
	Because we're going to have a constant...
	We always have a constant desire to impose a conclusion, right?
	And to set up traps.
	Because this was a bit of a... I mean, with all due respect, I know you're not a bad guy or anything, but this was a little bit of a trap, right?
	Wherein I was supposed to step into this thing called teasing, and it was supposed to be lighthearted fun and, you know, this and that and the other, right?
	But what we can do instead is just say, wow, you know, when you started talking about Well, it's interesting.
	It is very interesting. Because I didn't even think of it in that context.
	Well, but you had an emotion before you said something, right?
	Yeah.
	And that's the challenge of RTR, is to talk about the emotions, not the conclusions, right?
	Okay.
	I'm sorry, are you waiting for a response?
	No, no, that was all I sort of wanted to mention there.
	Was there anything else that people had as questions or comments or issues or problems or anything like that?
	Well, thanks for bringing this up, Nate.
	Yeah, no problem. I think I've learned quite a bit from this.
	I don't know if any...
	Both Rich and Charlotte, I guess, came in pretty late.
	I don't mind putting them in, but I don't know what Rich's name is.
	Oh, well, I don't know either.
	I'll just ask him in case he wants to have a question at the end.
	Never mind, Mr.
	C.S. See, you know, this is the night that I picked to do me weekly grocery shopping because I didn't really know there was going to be a call.
	So now I know. We're just trying out the old server version of Skype, which so far has not crashed, and I think that the sound quality is good stuff.
	It's been excellent.
	This is just amazing, the sound quality.
	Yeah, we have 14 people in, and we've been running for an hour and 40 minutes, and that's good stuff all around, so this is definitely the way to go.
	Right, not even so much of a stutter or a cutout of any kind.
	Yeah, not a flicker at all.
	But yeah, that's about it. Okay, well, just for the people who've joined, did you have any sort of relatively quick questions about this, I guess it was RTR, what is it, 770, something, RTR squared, I can't remember what the number was.
	779. Square, what?
	What does that number have to do with it?
	Oh, I can't remember the name of the RTR Squared podcast, but some people had some questions about it.
	Oh, 977.
	Well, what happened after you released it?
	I'm sure that this has already been trodden to death, but I'm curious.
	What do you mean, what happened after I released it?
	Well, did sales go up?
	I mean, what happened in relation to what you were talking about?
	Well, a bunch of people told me they were depressed, and I don't think just buy the podcast.
	Yeah, sales picked up a little bit, and I've had some requests for free books from people who don't have money and so on.
	But yeah, I think, I mean, what was more important to me even than upping the sales was just to see if I'd gotten any kind of finger on the pulse of the community to...
	what had been happening and what was going on.
	And I think, you know, sorry, you'll have to hear this later, but in a couple of the interactions that we've had even on this, we can sort of see the inescapability of RTR, which, of course, is the real challenge, right?
	UPB on truth, the argument from effect, the argument from morality, all the stuff that we've talked about since the beginning of this conversation, the state, the society, they're all optional, right?
	But RTR is not, as far as that goes, right?
	It's a pretty continual thing.
	And it's shown up here a couple of times even in this conversation.
	It showed up in the RTR conference, of course, the symposium in Miami, and so on.
	So I think that people feel kind of overwhelmed and so on because of the fact that RTR... This sort of basic honesty about what's going on for you in your interactions is kind of inescapable, right?
	So people could swim around in the net of FDR before, but suddenly the net seems to have, I think for some people, turned into kind of a noose.
	And it's like, oh, I kind of preferred it when we were talking about murder in the abstract, right, rather than this.
	It seems to me that UPB is actually also inescapable in a sense, in an opposite sort of way from RTR, right?
	Because UPB, you're kind of enmeshed in it whether you want to be or not.
	It's sort of a behavioral...
	Human beings do it whether they think they are or not, whereas RTR is sort of like you think you're doing it, but you're not, right?
	The exact opposite of it.
	Well, it could be, but I think that the principles of UPB Are something that you can avoid insofar as, you know, there are no FDR listeners currently on the run from serial killing or something like that, right?
	So, it hasn't really...
	You don't violate...
	Nobody violates UPB on this board, right?
	I mean, being rude is just aesthetically negative.
	It's not evil or anything.
	So, we haven't had a whole lot of people who are like, yeah, UPB, great book.
	Now, I got some speakers that fell off the back of the truck if anyone's interested, right?
	We haven't had... That kind of stuff.
	Yeah, but we did have an example here tonight, though, with Nathan, right, of a violation of UPV in the aesthetic sense.
	Well, yeah. I mean, there was inconsistency there, right?
	Not being perfectly honest with people, I wouldn't say, is even aesthetically negative, right?
	It's just, if you have a relationship that's supposed to be intimate, you should be honest, right?
	But UPB turned out to be helpful here, but I wouldn't put it in a real moral category like Nate.
	Nate can go and spend $150 and talk about his love of chipmunks if he wants, right?
	It's not evil, right?
	It's just not consistent.
	No, right, but it...
	Go ahead, bud.
	It's Nate trying to talk.
	Thank you.
	Huh? No, I heard a girl's voice.
	Sounded like Colleen. I think they're all, like, gathered over there, you know, huddled around the single computer.
	I don't know if they're seeing us.
	Now that we've got to turn our mics up real loud, the point is to try and hit a high C. I can do like a C flat.
	I can do mostly flat.
	Yeah, acapella's not my forte.
	Right. Yeah, I think UBB has helped, especially with that rejection thing that was just...
	I need to keep that in the back of my head just all the time because I think that's a major issue there.
	Right, right, right.
	Right. I mean, if you're hypersensitive to rejection and you go around talking about UPB and the Stateless Society with people and RTR, they're going to feel a lot of rejection.
	And they'll then hook into your fear of rejection to get you to stall you, right?
	Right. Right.
	Right. Yeah, and you even say that.
	Where did you say that?
	Was that in the book? Or was that some other thing?
	You said something like, if you have a problem with rejection, watch out, you maybe...
	Oh yeah, that's in the book.
	The stuff that people will control us with is the stuff that we control ourselves with, right?
	Right. Yeah, that's tough.
	That's a hard part to...
	Grasp. Yeah, now I think I grasp it better with this in context.
	It makes more sense. I mean, in practice it is.
	Not intellectually. I mean, intellectually it's easy to understand, but in practice it's tough.
	It is, it is.
	There is a certain amount of just do it kind of willpower that is involved with RTR. And look, this sounds completely ridiculous, but I mean, I have stuff that I use as reminders, right?
	Stay curious. I'll write that on my hand before I do a listener conversation.
	I mean, it's okay to use reminders, right?
	I've nagged Greg to stick stuff up on his computer screen, right?
	Is this making us money is one of the things, right?
	I'm really glad that you found the flaming hypertext border for the website, but if we could actually get some cash into the bank account, that would be excellent, too, because I don't pay you with HTML, right?
	And this is something which I have to remind myself as well, right, which is...
	Is what I'm going to do today, right?
	So today I'm working on hot Asian girls discussing anarchism.
	Clearly, that's going to make a fortune.
	So it's just the same question that I have today.
	So as soon as somebody searches on hot Asian girls on Google, you've got it.
	And we want those people.
	Sorry. Right. Just an impromptu poll.
	So how many of you eligible bachelors have actually searched for Hot Asian Girls on Google?
	Okay, I just searched Hot Asian Girls Anarchy and it's the number one video on Google.
	It's the only video on Google, isn't it?
	No, no, no, no, no.
	It's a top one when you search Hot Asian Girls Anarchy.
	Yeah, I can see that. I can see that.
	Well, I finally have gotten around to...
	The reason I had to delete it was that I actually had subtitles that didn't show up after I uploaded it, so I had to try something else.
	Subtitles in Asian? Yes, Greg.
	Subtitles in Asian because I try to know my market as well as possible, so yes.
	So if it's an Asian, that's like...
	The subtitles take up the whole thing.
	There's like seven, eight languages.
	Yeah, exactly. It's like a spider loose in your monitor.
	You have like one character from each language in a line, so they can understand maybe an eighth of what you're actually saying.
	Exactly. Oh, you did delete...
	Are you putting it back? Oh yeah, I'll put it back.
	I just had to delete it from...
	From where I had uploaded it because it was missing the subtitles.
	Huh. Excellent.
	It was subtitles. That's a first.
	It doesn't make sense without subtitles.
	Right, like the flashing go-to www.hotasiangirls.com I can't believe Hot Asian Girls is taken.
	Anyway, never mind. And Greg, can we change it?
	Sonny, just kidding. Okay, well, was there anything else?
	I'm getting hungry. Was there anything else that people wanted to talk about?
	Any yearning burnings left over?
	I'm hungry, too.
	I'm kind of hungry, too.
	Alright. Let's all go eat.
	Well, thanks everybody. It was a good chat.
	I appreciate it. I think it was a good idea.
	And I will compile this sucker up and hopefully it'll sound as good as it did live.
	Awesome. Thanks everyone.
	Alright, see ya. Thanks.

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