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Oct. 31, 2007 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
43:47
897 FOOconomics NOTE: SHOWS CONTINUE ON NEW FEED!

The costs of your FOO (NEW FEED: Freedomain_Radio_Podcast_3.xml)

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Oh, hi, Steph. How's it going? Oh, hey, I'm okay.
How are you? Good, good.
So you're a rambling man?
Yes. Well, right now I'm just wandering around the neighborhood.
Excellent. Well, it's nice to know that somebody else is walking while podcasting is occurring.
Well, it's unseasonably warm for down here, but that's not saying much.
It's here, too. It's like 22 degrees up here, and it's October.
Yeah, well... Beautiful.
It's wonderful. But...
So, yeah. Well, I'm going to toss in a couple of caveats, if that's okay.
Sure. When I say I'm beginning the defuing process, I mean I'm starting the preparations for it.
Sure. Meaning I'm starting the financial independence.
That's the big thing. Because I don't know if you remember from composing the past.
Yeah. That they're paying for my education.
Sure. And it doesn't go, right?
And it's not like you're going to make a fortune on the moment you graduate.
Right. And I've really learned recently, just by introspection, and I mean, I knew this, but I've just sort of thought about it.
It's not free. I mean, with them paying for it, that's not free.
No. Because it means multiple visits.
In some form or another, either me going there or them going there.
I've been interrupted, but there's quite a bit of wind noise there, you are.
Oh, I'm sorry. Here, how about I go down...
The wind just really started gusting.
No, I know the same thing when I bugged, so no problem.
I just wanted to mention it. If there's any way that you can field it.
Sure. Well, I'm going...
Here, I'm almost around a house, so...
So sorry. No, no problem.
Okay, is this better?
Yeah, that's great. Thank you.
Okay. Well, um...
So I really realize that it's not free.
It's... I'm paying in terms of the weekly phone calls, the visits, stuff like that.
So... What I really...
Also need to throw in another caveat of...
All this is Tento.
Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. No, I understand.
I mean, and I absolutely feel no...
Moral obligation to defu.
Right. I certainly think it would be beneficial, although it's going to be really hard.
But... My tentative plan, and I'm just going to run through it really quickly and see what you think.
I'm going through, which is not cheap.
And my tentative goal would be to try to...
Get, in this next year or two, as many scholarships, as many grants, and possibly loans as I possibly can.
Get the cost down from, I think it's like 40 grand a year.
Yeah. I haven't even applied for any scholarships, so that should definitely help.
And just get the cost down as much as possible.
And if I get it down to something that's manageable, where I could just work through school.
Yeah. Then the financial independence part is finished.
And that's the big thing right now, because you know from the Skype that we've had, and we've had MSN chats before, I've dealt with a lot of the emotional stuff, because the big part for me was just to see the truth.
And I've noticed this with just about everyone, the big part is just seeing, oh wow, this isn't a good situation.
So, what are your thoughts, I guess, on that?
Well, I certainly think that anything you can do to bring your costs down while you go to school makes sense.
definitely you will get more enjoyment out of your relationship with anybody who can give you a scholarship than you will out of your parents.
But there is – I mean, it's hard to say.
I definitely got into debt when I was going to university.
And it took me quite a while to pay that off afterwards, but I didn't really mind it, if that makes any sense.
I didn't really mind the fact that I was in debt for university, and so if I were you, I would definitely work as hard as I could to get going as I could, but I would not necessarily put it as completely out of the...
I'm completely off the table to think about whether or not I would, if I can't get scholarships, or whether I consider going into debt.
Right. And again, I said possibly loans.
So, I mean, that's, I think, and I think you kind of hinted at that just now, that obviously don't just say, yeah, loans, loans, loans, immediately.
I mean, try to get the cost down, but if I need to get into debt, I mean, It's probably better financial debt than sole debt, you know?
Well, I don't think that it's a dichotomy that way, so let me just run you through a sort of free debate radio value proposition that I've been mulling about doing a podcast on, but I'll just run it through with you.
So, your parents are in their 40s?
Approaching 50. I think my dad turned 50 this year.
So, on the balance, they're probably going to live for another 30 to 35 years?
Well, I think a doctor friend of my dad's told him that he would give him another 15 to 20 or so.
That seems like way below the average.
Well, he's overweight, and he's not so much with the exercising.
Well, yeah, but I mean, that will change.
I mean, as people get older, they tend to become more responsible about their health.
But let's say it's another 20 years.
Okay, let's give it 25.
Okay, so 25 years.
Okay. So here's a way that you can rough up the calculations of figuring out what is going to happen over the next 25 years.
Let's say you defu tomorrow.
I'm going to imagine that you're going to be spending about $500 a year on presents to your parents.
On what?
Presents. Oh, yeah.
You mean if I don't defoo?
If you don't defoo, like let's just say you look at the next 25 years and you're spending, so that's $12,500 over 25 years.
If you invest that at sort of 8% to 10%, you can sort of triple or quadruple that.
So even if you just look at not spending birthday present money for your parents for 25 years, you're looking at $25,000 to $35,000 right there.
Okay. This is just ways of looking at it, right?
Like an opportunity cost kind of thing.
Well, it is an opportunity cost insofar as if you invest the money, then you'll get a hell of a lot of money out of that by the time you retire, right?
Right. So that's, you know, $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 is quite a lot of money, and that's just the tip of the iceberg, right?
Because that's not counting any of the time that you would spend with them, right?
So I'm going to guess that if we put down about, let's say, two hours a week of spending time with your parents...
Sure. That's probably not too wild.
Including phone conversations.
Yeah, including phone conversations.
Is that for both your parents?
Yeah. That would be about accurate.
If we look at 100 hours a year, and I would say we could probably bump that up to 150 if we include things like Christmas and birthdays and stuff like that, right?
Yeah, that sounds about...
In fact, that would only be...
Well, no, let's go with that.
So we've got 150 hours a year times 25 years.
That's 37 and 50.
Almost 4,000. Let's just round it up.
4,000 hours, right?
Which is 100 weeks of work, which is two and a half years of labor.
Okay. At 40 hours a week.
Okay. Right?
Okay. Yes, that's accurate.
So, if you look at two and a half years of labor at, say, $50,000 a year, and we won't worry about taxes or anything, it's just rough approximations, right?
Right. If you look at two and a half, that's $125,000 of time that you won't have to spend for the next 25 years.
I see what you're getting at.
Right, so it's $125,000 worth of time, and again, this is assuming, and this is without health benefits, so whatever, right?
I mean, we can sort of rough it up.
And we had, let's say, $40,000 of savings from gifts and things like that.
Now, I can guarantee you that as your parents get older, you will need to spend more time with them because they're going to get sick.
Mm-hmm. And your expenses are only going to go up from there.
So we're already at $165,000, $155,000, $165,000.
And that's the bare minimum, right?
That's the basis. It only goes upwards from there.
You can very easily get to $250,000 over the course of your life in cash, direct cash outlays or in time, a quarter million dollars, right?
Right. So, how much is your education going to cost?
About... You don't have to answer that, but I bet you it's a quarter million dollars.
Correct. Yeah, well, yeah.
It's less than that, yeah.
I would also put on that I had to spend $20,000 on therapy.
Right. Too much time with my parents.
Well, my friend yesterday recommended that before I go into this, I should probably see a therapist.
Well, I think that's a good idea.
I would certainly touch on the therapist's perception about the defooing process because that could help some therapists, so I definitely would touch on that.
You just say some crazy guy on the internet I send money to told me not to save my family.
Right. Well, I remember your thing a couple weeks ago on the Colin show where you said, well, see, I see the family as a cult, but I found a much better cult on the internet, and I really got a chuckle out of that.
Right. So this is just ways that you can help frame.
And none of this takes into account the emotional suffering.
Right. Right. Now, pain and emotional damages are sometimes offered in court at a 10 to 1 ratio to financial damages.
So if you get knocked out of your job for a year and you made $50,000, you will often get paid, if you sue, half a million dollars on top of that.
Right. Well, I was thinking...
Oh, sorry. Go on. So, we're looking at $250,000 over the next 25 years, plus $20,000 for therapy.
So, $270,000.
And if you look at the one suffering ratio on that, then you're looking at $2.7 million.
Yeah. Yeah.
And when you put that relative...
Oh, and let's not forget that...
Let's go one step further.
If you have not defued, then you are very likely going to end up with a woman who has not defued, and who does not have a good family.
Right. Right?
Because if you have not defued from a bad family, no good person will want to marry you, right?
Right. So you can double all of this because you're going to marry a messed up family.
Right. So we're looking at five million dollars and then if you also count the possibility of a course that will accrue to you because you'll get really depressed and upset by being stuck in this mess.
Right. So, you know, we're talking $5 million plus in terms of time and money savings over the next 25 years.
You know, relative to the price of your education and having to repay $40,000 or $50,000, it seems like a pretty good investment to me.
Okay. Oh, I agree.
Definitely. And that's definitely shed the A really different economic perspective on it.
We always forget all the liberty that comes out, all the liberty and savings that comes out of not being involved in corrupt families.
Right, and I mean, I think, just from an empirical standpoint, from my own experiences, I can tell with absolute certainty that on weekends where they're gone, my music is 10 to 20 times better.
Oh, no, without a doubt.
The moment, sorry to interrupt you, but your creative and intellectual energies are unleashed by getting corrupt people out of your life.
There's no way that I could have done free-domain radio if I had still been embedded with my family.
Right.
Well, I mean, I'll just sit down and I will write music that I didn't think that I could write.
Like, I will sit down.
Normally, it takes some tinkling out on the piano, sort of figuring out melodies, and it's sort of more of a belaboring process.
Yes. I think a lot of it might be if I'm self-conscious of what they're thinking, because if you remember from the past, they're not so positive sometimes.
And just, I think all of those, I mean, there are hundreds of variables, I'm sure, that come into play with all that, but definitely, it's tremendous.
Any music that I want to turn into, like, scholarships and stuff, I just do when they're gone.
Because it's... It's...
It's just completely indescribable how much better it is.
So I can tell you absolutely that from a financial perspective of my productivity, unquestionable that I will be able to write so much better music.
Absolutely, and of course that's going to translate into a far higher income for you.
Oh, for sure. And so, I mean, just all around, I certainly do understand and appreciate financial difficulties that are involved in the short term in terms of defoeing, but man, oh man, I mean, even if you take the happiness factor out of it, there's just no comparison in terms of defoeing.
Well, and I mean, and I sometimes, I mean, I know I don't really think this, but I mull over the idea that what if I had been introduced to these ideas two years before, where I could have had ample time to prepare?
Or, four years later, where I'm out of this college situation?
Because, I mean, right now that I know the truth, it's sort of like, it's hard to think, well, another four or five years is okay.
I mean, I can think that, and that's an option.
I don't really like that option.
That's why I want to get to work right now.
And, I mean, this has been a month and month and month process.
Sure. I mean, we had our first Skype in, what, July, was it?
I think so. And what has changed since that has made this more proactive a thought for you?
Well, just more and more experiences that certain relationships, I can tell, are affected by how I deal with my foo.
Yes, yes, yes. Like, I feel, like if I feel that someone is maybe both happy and, like, happy on the outside but sad on the inside and, like, showing that, well, that's what my mom does all the time.
And so I will feel, and then if I don't confront the issue immediately, because if I don't recognize it or something, then that person takes the role of my mom for, like, three days, and that's not healthy at all.
So the more and more, what's really made it evident to me, because when I first heard Podcast 183, I think it was, and the ones that really you first touch on the family, I was like, wow, that's an interesting concept.
I'll keep that on the back burner for a while, but first let me just sort of learn more.
And then, because I thought of it in more of the abstract, like, yeah, I'll I'll think about it later.
I think it's a healthy experience to deal with all this, sure.
But now I'm seeing the eminence of it.
Right. Because I really value about three friendships in my life of these really rational people.
And I don't want my relationships with my family to touch on them.
That's unjust. Right.
Right. And of course, the more that we accumulate obligation from our family, the harder it comes to DFU. Right.
Well, like if I were to stay with them for another four years, that's taking the money from tuition from them, which is immoral, but it definitely creates this web of obligation in me.
Like, I'll feel worse, I think, defuing then, because I'll feel sort of this monetary obligation, like, shit, I took that money.
Right, right. No, it is much tougher.
And it's very, it's, the act of staying in your family for material gain in the short run is going to have a very strong effect on how you experience your education.
Well, yeah, and I was talking about this with my friend yesterday.
I was like, Well, just, I've already told you and her about how much better my music is when they're gone.
So, I'm going to college for music.
I also mean as to how you're going to deal with your teachers and with conductors and with other people in your education.
True, very, very true.
We'll see it now with people that I'm, like, even acquaintances.
Like, it's much more subtle with people that I don't deal with very often.
Yeah, yeah. But I definitely, like, I'll feel really guilty if someone seems just a little, the slightest bit sad.
Right. Like, guilt, I've noticed with my friend, guilt, this unnecessary, irrational guilt, is probably by far the worst thing that I have to deal with.
Right. Because what it does is it makes other people.
It affects, like, my friends.
I mean, they don't want me to feel bad for something that I didn't do.
That's right. That's right.
But if you're prone to guilt, you're going to unconsciously invite manipulative people into your life, and it's going to be harder to fight them.
Right. Like that one friend, that's a perfect example.
But I was drawn for a while unconsciously.
Now I'm trying to be more conscious about it.
No, that's right.
That's right. And of course, you certainly will spend some time paying back money that you wouldn't have otherwise, but that's a clean relationship that you have with your creditors, even if you end up having to declare bankruptcy.
That's a clean relationship. That you have with your creditors.
It's rational, it's objective, and it's not manipulative, and it's not a quicksand, it's not emotionally destructive, and so on.
So I think that it's worth bearing almost any burden to get out of a situation like that.
Wait, sorry, what's the clean relationship?
With your creditors.
With my creditors or predators?
Creditors, if you borrow money.
Right, right. So, right, that is.
And... I mean, it's interesting, I mean, the emotions that I'm feeling when I think about this, because I've thought about it before in the abstract, and I never really felt fear, because it's sort of like thinking about, I don't know, jumping off the Grand Canyon if you know you're not going to do it for like 40 years or 30 years.
But thinking about it in the imminence has really created, it's a mix of like this Really big fear.
Like, I feel like I'm... The stomach is just turning.
Oh, it's horrible. But then I also feel joy.
Right. This brimming with joy, like, wow.
I could actually do this.
This is... Because every one of the things I told you about, except for the acceptance into scholarships, is completely within my control.
Yes. Which is important.
I... Like...
I can control every one of those, except, as I said, the acceptance.
But... I still, to an extent, can control that by being qualified and submitting good essays.
Yes, for sure. You can manage all of that sort of stuff proactively.
Right. So, do you have a schedule yet?
Again, there's no particular rush.
I mean, you've got to settle with this stuff.
I certainly promise that after you do it, it will be very hard to be afraid of anything else again in your life.
Right. Would you have a schedule at the moment?
Totally. As I said, it's pretty tentative.
I mean, I just turned 19, so I'm still...
I mean, I've been dealing with a lot of other stuff, like school classes and stuff like that.
But when I sit down in my little chair in my corner, I've got a little thinking chair, I would love to be able to get the costs down within the next year.
Right. Because scholarship applications are probably around, like, May...
April-ish. I mean, I think that's generally when they're due.
And I mean, certainly the Ayn Rand scholarship would be an interesting thought, although I would probably have to focus more on metaphysics and epistemology in that case.
And minarchism. What's that?
And minarchism. Well, not really with that.
Um... I don't know.
I mean, I'm definitely going to do more research into the grants and scholarships that are available, but I would say it would be fantastic if we could do it within the next two years.
Yeah, I mean, my initial instinct with that, and you know your own mind and heart better, is that that's a hell of a drawn-out breakup.
Right. Like if somebody's decided to leave a marriage, you don't say, well, I'm going to wait for two years, right?
Right. Well, my thoughts on that, I mean, I think I'm emotionally, basically, like if I did it tomorrow, I think, I don't know if I'd have any more or less emotional, I guess, trauma, to say the least, than most other people who go through this.
Because I think I've dealt with a lot of the corruption in my heart.
But, So, I don't think I have that much more to do in terms of, like, preparing myself mentally and emotionally.
But a lot of it's just financial stuff, you know?
Like, for the short term. Because, I mean, if I defood, let's just say tomorrow, I would...
I mean, they are holding...
I talked with my friend yesterday.
They're holding my education ransom, in a sense.
Behave or we don't pay.
Well, sure. So, and that's...
It's really made me rethink how I'm going to pay for my children's education.
I really realized that I'm going to have to, not have to, but I mean, it seems much more just to just give them the money up front and say, do with it what you want.
I taught you how to make rational decisions, and you can decide.
Rather than do this dripping nonsense, you know?
Yeah, well, sure.
I mean, who knows when I have kids and they get that old, what's going to happen?
But You know, my particular approach is, you know, you're 15 or 16, get a job and start saving for university.
Like, I don't know that, you know, we've sort of hit physical maturity around 16.
I don't know that for another six years, parents should pay for their kids' education.
Like, I don't know whether or not I really am going to want to end up paying for my kids to go through university.
Because I managed to do it by working from the age of 11, and you can do it, right?
It's just that, unfortunately, you weren't prepared for that because you didn't know this left turn that your life was going to make.
And it's very different in the States because it's more expensive, but I think it's okay for, you know, a man in his 20s to pay for his own schooling in one form or another.
Well, definitely. And that's what I said about 10 minutes ago or so.
I mean, I sort of wish I would have known about all these ideas a little earlier.
Sure. Because then I could have, I mean, right now, I've been told my entire, basically, life, or at least adolescence, oh, we've got it, we've got it, and I was always told, well, okay, and I've never, I mean, I realize it's not free.
It is not free at all.
There's very little that's more costly in life.
A lot more costly.
Corrupt people. Right, and it's, It's a ransom.
And I said yesterday, I keep bringing back things I said to my friend, but I think it's important because I talked a lot about this with my friend.
And she said, or I told her, they've taken away, and this might sound like a personal vendetta, and it might be, I don't know.
But they've taken away a significant part of my happiness as a child.
And this Berkeley thing, it's been my dream for years.
And I've finally achieved it.
They're not going to take it away.
I mean, with this ransom...
They can't.
I mean, so...
And that's why I... They're holding this as a ransom.
Behave or don't go to college.
I am not going to fall prey.
And I sound passionate because I am.
And this, again, that's why I say it might be a personal vendetta.
I don't know. They're not going to take it back from me.
That would be unspeakable.
That would be the last straw.
That's why I can't defu tomorrow.
Well, I don't agree, but I mean, I don't know all of the details of your circumstances, and of course my opinion doesn't matter, right?
They can't take away your right or ability to go to university if you are willing to take loans or if you're willing to work two jobs through school and stuff like that.
I mean, there's lots of ways to do it that will have to be a better...
Be a better student, enjoy this next couple of years a whole lot more than the dread of having to take this phone call and knowing what you've sold to take that call.
Right, because, I mean, oh, it's bad.
They've said, we're going to see you once a month, no matter what.
Sure. Because it's like, November, there's Thanksgiving, and then October, they'll fly up, don't worry.
I mean, all this...
Well, also, if you defoo after school or when a significant portion of your education has been paid for, defooing is going to be a hell of a lot more difficult, because they'll know exactly what you're doing.
Right. And then I'll have that question in my mind, just or not, was I a parasite?
Well, no, I don't think it's possible for you to be a parasite with your parents because, as you say, not only did they take away happiness, but they inflicted suffering on you when you were a child.
So I don't think there's any possibility that we can become parasites without parents.
Okay. So I wouldn't worry about that.
It's just that they will be that much more enraged if you take them for their money as well as, you know what I mean?
Right. Right. Just to give you an example, put yourself in sort of a woman's shoes, right?
So if you were a woman and you married some guy and there was some law that said after three years you get half his assets and if she was kind of cold and mean for two years and then on three years and one day she divorced him, he would totally understand what she was doing, right?
That she just wanted half his assets and then it would turn into a very bitter and ugly divorce which it wouldn't have if she'd acted earlier.
Right, and that's definitely what my mindset was when I realized it was probably, because I've been having sleep problems the past five days, so it was like three or four days ago that I realized, you know, I need to do this.
Yeah, no, insomnia is a very good sign in this area, so I know it's hell, but it certainly is a very good sign because it means that you're sort of waking up to a different future.
Right, which, see, and it's hard to think about all this.
I mean, I think you know as well as I do.
I do, and when I say that I disagree, this doesn't mean anything because it's your life.
The only thing that I'm trying to keep you flexible to is just to go with the notion that what you need to do is keep sitting on these thoughts, keep sitting on these feelings, just keep exploring how you feel.
And not give yourself rules ahead of time, right?
So there's no rule called, I gotta go and do it tomorrow, and there's no rule called, in about two years will be the right time, right?
Forget about your plans, because you're on a rollercoaster now, and your plans are going to mean not that much, right?
I mean, I hate to say it, but it's kind of true.
So you just need... Keep exploring your feelings.
Keep talking to your friends. Keep posting on the board.
Keep in the conversation.
But the more preconceived notions that you come to, the more you're going to interfere with the process, right?
I mean, you're in a process like puberty right now.
And so when you're in puberty, you don't say, well, I'm going to have chest hair in three months.
It's like, hey, I just got to eat well.
Right, right. You can let go of planning, you can let go of the fears of being a parasite, and you can let go of all of that, and you just need to monitor yourself, because the plan will come to you.
Okay, well that's...
That takes a lot of burden off of me.
Please, yeah, look, that's the thing that I most want to get across to you, and I did get the sense that you were kind of stressed about having to make a decision.
Listen, my defooing from my brother occurred when I was dozing in a hammock, not thinking about it whatsoever.
Oh, I remember that podcast, and that's where I sort of, I think that was almost a realization, was very similar this week for me.
Right. Like through this insomnia and I woke up and I was like, you know what?
I need to really start really considering this in the short term.
And by short I mean not after college or not in ten years.
I mean short as in let's start thinking about it now.
And I would say don't think about it now.
Okay. I mean, this is my suggestion based on having gone through this with a whole bunch of people, right?
It's up to you, of course. But I would say just keep exploring your feelings about your parents.
Don't give yourself any scare stories about parasitism and don't give yourself any schedules like two years or two months.
I'll tell you how it's going to happen.
It's going to happen because you're going to wake up one day and you're going to be very calm and it's not that you're not going to be scared, but there won't be any doubt.
And if you try and do it before you reach that place, it's going to be a mess and it's going to be horrible.
Well, because I'm not going to be emotionally ready and then I'm either going to be drawn back to them or be drawn to people who...
Right, right. I mean, you have bullied your whole childhood, right?
Don't bully yourself now with schedules and plans and this and that, right?
Just keep letting, keep accepting your feelings, keep letting what happens happens to you, stay open with your parents, stay in conversation with your parents, stay vulnerable with your parents, and you will then wake up one day, or maybe it'll be three o'clock in the morning, and you'll just know.
You'll just know. And after that, Oh,
wow. Okay. See, we have this incredible strength and certainty.
This is the true self. We have this incredible strength and certainty within us.
And it doesn't mean that when we achieve that, that our life becomes Buddhistically, nonsensically easy.
But I would not act prior to that, right?
So it's the same way that I was trying to make the decision about quitting my career to do Free Domain Radio, right?
I didn't give myself a schedule.
I just kept being receptive to my work environment.
I kept trying to be more and more honest in my work environment.
Just new. Great.
Well, it's a few days ago, and I don't know, I bet there's something that had to do with this, but when I first just came to the realization I've got to start thinking about this, which I've learned now, and maybe not so much with the conscious thinking, I just felt this huge wave of uneasiness, and I actually fell down once.
Not like a hard fall, but I just sort of my knees buckled.
And I felt really, really, really dizzy.
And I don't know if that...
Go on.
No, you go ahead. Well, I just don't know what that quite was.
I don't know if it was myself sort of feeling this fear like, oh wow, maybe...
He might actually do this, or I don't know what, you know?
Well, I would suggest, and of course it's something the only introspection will let you know for sure, but I would suggest that what you feel is that when you have changed your mind, you must execute a plan.
Right. Right, but that's not true at all.
So I was creating this false dichotomy of Either don't think about it or either don't put this in your mind at all.
Or make a plan. Right, right.
And this is not something which is able to get you out of the problem of your past, right?
Because we were never allowed to just be when we were children.
We always had to be doing something or planning something or managing something.
Do you know what I mean? Like, I bet you you never felt particularly relaxed.
If you were home alone, you're sitting there reading.
When someone comes in, don't you always feel kind of like, so the door opens, you feel anxious, like you've got to now do something different than what you're doing.
There's no peace with other people around.
And so you're not...
Sorry, go ahead. Well, that's probably what I was talking about my composing earlier.
Yes, I think that's quite true.
So what I would say is that you're not used to just being and trusting yourself.
And so my suggestion would be to continue to think about this and feel about this and not come up with preconceptions about how it's going to happen, but trust that you know how to do it and trust that you will do it the right way when it's the right time.
Right. Okay. And that makes a lot more sense.
As I said, it makes it a lot easier for me.
Well, it should be easy for you.
It should be easy for you.
It's never going to be particularly enjoyable.
But you know how to do this.
We know how to be free in our lives.
We know how to be free.
And at least now that I've come to the conclusion that it's going to happen.
I mean... When I first started, I was like, eh, they weren't that bad.
No, no. At least I've accepted that it's going to happen.
Yeah, it's going to happen, and that was not something that you pursued.
That was something that occurred for you, right?
Well, I don't choose...
Not to believe in God. I accept that there's no God.
So I've accepted this. When you began thinking about God, you didn't sit there and say, well, I'm going to be an atheist in six months.
Right. I thought through it, and I was like, well, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Let's see some of the logical contradictions that are in it.
So as I told you before, I was a weak atheist until I read a lot of the proofs, and I didn't want to make an absolute certain...
because I didn't know. For sure.
And I think that's parallel to this situation.
I was kind of leaning that way towards the defooing, but I didn't know enough about it, about my own past and about the whole process, so I didn't want to make a firm statement, because I had a process and I didn't want to jump to any conclusions.
Right, and so the same thing.
I don't think that it's worth sitting here thinking, my DFU schedule is X.
Because you don't know when you're going to be ready and you don't know what's going to happen.
But what you do know and what you do have, and you have no control over when you're going to be ready.
So when you became an atheist, you simply kept studying and asking questions and examining your feelings and learning more.
And then you just, your faith evaporated, right?
It's the same thing.
You just keep exploring your family, keep exploring your feelings, and don't set a schedule up.
Don't set a schedule up.
Just trust that your future is going to reach down and pull you up, and it's going to be at exactly the right time and exactly the right way.
Oh, wow. I'm grinning right now.
That makes me happy. Well, see, that's the freedom that I keep bugging people about, right?
What is? Well, it's the freedom.
It's like people always want to will stuff to happen.
And you can't.
You can't will health.
You can only will the actions that result in health.
Right, like the...
You can only will the actions that will result in certainty.
Right. Well, like the people who are always like, well, when will there be liberty...
And the more they're planning it, the less free they are.
That's what I've just sort of always felt like.
And that's sort of how I am right now.
I'm working hard for my freedom.
But that's making me less free right now.
You can't control when that freedom is going to be in your heart and in your soul.
You can't control when you're going to feel free.
But you can certainly do the things which hasten it along, which is to not lash yourself to particular schedules, because that's trying to control something that you can't control.
Oh, fantastic. Well, yeah, cool.
I was actually planning before I talked to you on just going...
Maybe the library and just researching grants, researching scholarships, researching loans, getting a list together, applying for them all, rush, rush, rush, and I don't think that needs to be done.
No, no. I mean, I would do that when you really want to do it.
And all I would do is keep staying in the conversation with yourself and with your friends and with the board and whoever's useful.
Keep doing your research. Keep being honest with your family.
Keep doing all of that stuff. And you'll know when the time is right.
You'll wake up and you will just be so sick that you'll be glad you waited.
Right. And that's probably, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
A whole lot of sense to me.
Right, because the last thing that you want to do, given that the defooing process has stresses involved, is to put yourself on a schedule that's artificial and arbitrary and then feel stressed because of that as well, right?
Right. Like, if I were to choose two years, there's no real reason that I would choose two years, other than it's a nice round number and just sort of sounds like not too long, not too short.
Well, sure. But once I say that two years, then it's going to feel drawn out.
Like, if I have no set schedule, maybe, like you said, two years is a hell of a long time for a breakup, but if I have no set time for it, and I'm just letting it happen, then it doesn't feel like such a long breakup, you know?
Well, no, and of course, you don't want to pretend to have knowledge that you don't, and you do not know when you're going to be certain.
Right. When I have my hammock episode.
Yeah, you won't know when you have your hammock episode and you wake up with certainty.
You don't know when that's going to happen.
Now, you can do things that will hasten it along, so you're not passive in the process.
Right. But you don't know when that's going to happen.
And so, to pretend that you can make a schedule when what you're trying to get is a form of organic certainty within your soul that you can't directly control, I think you just need to be more receptive and less prescriptive.
Okay, that just...
Alright, well that helps so much.
I'm so glad. Alright, well I'll definitely keep in touch as to my thoughts on all this.
Yeah, but just relax and enjoy the certainty that you've achieved and don't push yourself for the next thing.
Just keep being curious and enjoy this process.
You don't have to go from one unchosen positive obligation for slavery to another one for freedom.
Okay, great.
Well, thank you so, so much.
I'm going to compile this, if you could give it a listen.
I think, personally, that it would be great for general release, but you can let me know what you think.
Alright, well, I don't know, you know how, I mean, I'm sure you've noticed how hesitant I am on that sort of stuff.
Just listen and let me know what you think.
I think it's definitely useful for other people, because this is something a lot of people are facing, but of course, it's always up to you.
Okay, and this might be a little, for now, maybe a little...
I don't know. I can't just...
Oh, a minute for me right now.
So maybe if I give it another few weeks, if that's okay.
Well, see, here's the thing, right?
This is how you can put what we're talking about here into practice, which is that you don't know how you're going to feel after you listen to it.
True. Okay. And if you feel, obviously it's your podcast, right?
So if you feel that it is the wrong thing to do to release it, then we won't.
But I would say see how you feel after you listen to it, and we can make a decision from there.
All right. Well, thanks again, and I will talk to you later.
You're welcome. Talk to you soon. Bye.
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