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Sept. 13, 2007 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:13:30
862 Parents Using Children Using Parents - A Listener Conversation

A listener describes his last two days in a Christian home...

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Time Text
Hello? Hello. Can you hear me?
I sure can. Can you hear me?
You sound great. Do I sound okay?
You sound fabulous.
Like volume level and all that?
Volume level is great. That's a nice mic.
Okay. Thank you.
I guess I don't need to add you then.
No. No.
Okay. Okay.
Sounds good. So, I am sorry to hear about what's going on with your dad, and the reason that I was pestering you on the board with regards to apologies and so on, that it seemed to me that you were drifting entirely understandably,
but perhaps not correctly, into this realm of, well, you know, he doesn't apologize to me that much, but then, hey, I don't apologize to him that much, so maybe it balances out, or I need to take more of the first step.
Did I sort of interpret where you were correctly, or did I miss something?
Well, it was more just like, I'm trying to think how to describe it, It was sort of like I felt like I got that I'm not supposed to apologize thing from him.
You know what I mean? Like, I got that sort of ingrained in me from being around so much when I never heard an apology from anybody for anything ever, pretty much.
So that was sort of what I was thinking, was that I sort of learned to do that, where I always had to be right and, you know, you hold your ground regardless of whether or not you turn out to be right or wrong, that kind of thing.
Right, right. But, so you said that he was apologizing a little bit more at the moment, is that right?
Yeah, magically, I was listening to, I forget which podcast it was, it was some a while ago, about how, you've probably mentioned over quite a few podcasts actually, about how...
All of a sudden, parents seem to be much nicer the instant that the child is, you know, leaving or basically has more power.
All of a sudden, they find the ability to, you know, back off a little bit.
And yeah, everything's been, up until these conversations we've been having over the past week, everything's been glorious.
And he's been, hey, let's go out for breakfast.
And oh, let's do this, that, and the other.
And it's been a magical change that's occurred over the past couple months up until probably last week.
Right, it's magic, but it's sort of a black magic.
Yeah, definitely.
So what do you think is going on?
I mean, sorry, just in case this ever is a podcast, which of course I won't do without your permission, but your dad is, you're having some pretty assertive disagreements with your father with regards to religion, if I remember that rightly.
That is correct.
I've been trying to hold back on having the conversations that I've been having with them until I moved out just because I don't have anywhere to go.
You know what I mean? If a conversation goes really sour, I get to go sleep down the hall from them still.
You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I certainly do understand that, and it's a touching kind of optimism when you say if.
It's so sweet, I love it.
But, yeah, no, everything, there was a book, my mom gave me a book to read that I actually posted a review in the book review section.
Oh, your form of the board there, but it was something about dinner with a perfect stranger, and it was this guy that, you know, goes and has dinner with Jesus, and they have this whole conversation.
It was basically, it was like reading a...
You know those pamphlets, the Baptists or whoever sort of corner you with on the street and, hey, you should read this, and have you accepted Jesus and all this different stuff?
It was literally like a half a second away from saying the earth was only 4,000 years old or 6,000 years old or whatever their theory is.
I think 6,000.
It was a 19th century bishop, I think, who worked it out based on the genealogy and the lifespans of the people in the Bible.
But yeah, I think it's about 6,000.
Sure, sure. I mean, I guess that book had to have some purpose, right?
So what was the moral in the book that really struck with you?
I mean, I guess you read some part of it or all of it.
Well, I read the whole thing because it was a really short book and had nice large print because it obviously wasn't, you know, it's no Alice Shrugged as far as complexity.
Not a lot of big words, right?
Yeah, I would argue it not.
So I perused it.
I read the whole thing and it took me probably a week, but that's because I can only read for about half an hour a night between school and work and everything.
But what I got out of it basically was there was a little section about how Why Christianity is right and all the other religions are wrong, and it set up all these moral, or not moral, sort of scientific constructs, like it was saying, I forget if it's Buddhism or Hinduism, the one that says that the universe and God are one, I don't know which one of those it is.
I mean, I think that's closer to Buddhism than Hinduism, based on my very sketchy knowledge of the differences, but it probably is closer to Buddhism.
Sure. Sure. But he was saying how that was false because of what scientists have recently discovered about the universe having a definite starting point, and then so God couldn't be one with the universe because that would imply God had a starting point.
And we know that's not true from the Bible, I guess.
And then he wouldn't take the scientific approach, obviously, and apply it to Christianity because he would be blowing a hole in his own premise and, I mean, Jesus wouldn't do that.
Right, they have no problem with being eternal and using science to prove that, but of course the fact that science disproves every one of Jesus' miracles seems to hold no water with them, so to speak.
Right, and let alone that he was having dinner, you know, 2,000 some odd years after he died.
But anyways, the point is, I read this book, and I found that among a couple thousand other problems with it.
And I didn't, like, I just gave it back to Mom.
I didn't really say anything about it.
I was like, here's the book, whatever, and I kind of left it out for her.
Because I didn't, like I said, I didn't really want to start any of that until I had somewhere to go, you know?
Well, sure, but why is it that you think that your mother gave you this book at this point?
Is it because you're asking them about religion or you're having conflicts with them about religion?
No, that whole thing started as a result of them asking me what I thought about the book.
Okay, but you're – I'm just going to be an annoying pest here.
Sure, sure. That's fine.
But why do you think that you're – I mean, I guess you're late teens.
You don't have to be too specific, right?
But you've been around your family for close on two decades, and you've been able to read a book of this – Of this complexity probably for about 15 of those years.
Yeah, at least.
But you could have read this book or your mother could have given this book to you when you were 8 or 9 or 10 or whatever, right?
So why now, right?
So this is the stuff that's hard to wake up to in our family.
Like, the thing that really got me thinking about my family was one summer...
I guess I was about 12 or so.
My mother went to Germany for some surgery.
She was a sort of recreational hypochondriac and that was her vacation.
And my brother was sent to England to stay with some relatives and I was sent to the grandparents of a friend I barely knew in Canada.
And I just remember my sister-in-law once asked me and she said, well, Why weren't you sent to England with your brother?
Which is a perfectly reasonable question, but when we're inside these systems, when we're inside these structures, we don't ask them because we're just not allowed to have preferences and not allowed to ask these things.
Sure, and it's hard to think outside that sometimes.
Well, sure, yeah, and of course, especially when you get punished for doing so, right?
Right. To no benefit and to cause pain and so on.
We just learn to avoid these things.
Right. But it's important that your mother gave you this book at this time, right?
So do you know anything that may have happened before or do you know anything that you think may be going on within her mind that made the book sort of – like why one day did she decide to go out and get this book and give it to you?
Oh yes, I can definitely pinpoint that.
Probably about a year to a year and a half ago, I stopped going to church with them on Sundays.
And that never sat very well with them.
them they sort of just kind of got over it and occasionally would give me a little half-hearted you know you should do this and I'm like yeah okay maybe I'll start trying again but you know it was just one of those dodged a bullet kind of things and it was sort of coming to a head because the girl that I'm moving in with is also an atheist and
And even still to this moment, the last conversation we had, my dad continually loves to go in front of everybody, loves to ask the question, you know, do you believe in God?
Like trying to force me to say, no, I don't.
You know what I mean? Just to make a point out of me or something.
I don't know what the goal is there, but I would say the book definitely came from a, hey, let's make a last-ditch effort to get Matt back on the bandwagon here.
Right, right. Now, so your parents are applying some I guess quasi-intellectual pressure in terms of bringing arguments, the pseudo-scientific arguments and so on to bear on the situation.
And they're also using some social humiliation tactics to get you back in line, right?
In other words, trying to get you to go through the public shaming of openly admitting that you are a thinker, sorry, an atheist.
Yeah. Is there anything else that's going on that is cornering you in any way?
Um... You know what?
No, I mean, that seems to be about it.
Dad, like, I get this, I've had this feeling from Dad.
I actually told him the first time it actually sort of broke loose about the whole thing.
The first time it sort of all came out was, I basically said, look, the reason I constantly lie to you and the reason I constantly do this, that, and the other is that I'm scared of you and I've been scared of you for 20 some odd years.
And, you know, that's basically what it all comes down to, is I take the path of least resistance to avoid Any sort of conflict with you because I've been scared of you since I was able to have that feeling, I would imagine.
He's probably spanked me on a handful of occasions, but it's never been anything beyond that, as far as physically anyways.
I got two questions.
The first one is, so the content of the fear was because of his ability to shame or humiliate or was he a yeller or what was it that was terrifying about his behavior?
Well, I think I was actually talking to my mom about this and my mom's a lot more like she won't agree with me but she'll at least let me finish talking and it seems to be that I thought I sort of realized or I guess I've always realized I'm not sure how far back this goes that my dad tends toward violence like if if it comes down to it He has no problem, you know, taking a swing at somebody, that sort of thing.
So I was always, like, even as far as recently, I mean, I can even remember thinking that, oh, if we disagree, this is why I always didn't ever want to bring this up, was I had this innate fear, and there was never any sort of real, like, threat of this, but it was sort of in my head that if we brought this up and everything sort of went to hell, that, you know, I was going to come home from work and all my stuff was going to be in the lawn.
Well, I would trust that instinct.
I mean, we know our parents better than we will know anybody in our whole life, right?
So, I mean, the first thing I would do is validate that feeling.
Did you ever see the movie Goodfellas since we talked about a movie just before coming on here?
You know what? No, actually, I haven't.
I just saw The Godfather for the first time last year, which is quite a fault.
It's a good film insofar as it's well-made and so on, but in it, Joe Pesci has this scene where he's talking to the lead character.
Uh, who said he's making some joke, right?
And, uh, the, the guy says, Hey, you're a funny guy.
Right.
And Joe Pesci keeps laughing, but there's a coldness that descends upon the scene.
And, uh, Joe Pesci's like, what?
Oh, you think I'm a funny guy?
You think I'm like just some sort of clown?
Oh, yeah.
You may have seen that scene, even though it's quite a famous scene, right?
That's where that came from.
I, there's no, there's, uh, you're gonna, you're gonna love this thing.
I watched the Animaniacs a lot when I was growing up, and they have the good feathers on there, and that was a line from that show all the time.
Oh, okay. So it's like, what, I'm just here to amuse you?
Yeah, am I a clown? And this guy, there's no violence in the scene whatsoever, although we do know that he's a violent character.
But there's a real sense of unease and disquiet.
Just because you know that he's capable of violence...
Right. I think that if I understand what you were experiencing with your father correctly while growing up,
it's that you did not perceive that there was something in him that you could use as leverage to break his temper or to slow his temper down.
Like it would just snowball.
Does that make sense? Yeah, that was absolutely it.
There was one instance I remember, and I don't know why, I mean, I guess there's reasons why these little images from your youth stick with you, but I remember there was an image, I don't know, I was probably five or six or something, and I was in the living room and I was eating a cookie or something and just watching TV, minding my own business.
Dad stormed in the room and gave me a spanking because he was calling me from the opposite side of the house and I didn't hear him.
And he assumed that I'd heard him.
And I mean, to be fair, that was one out of maybe four times or three times that I can think of where he actually got to a spanking.
But that was one that stuck with me because it was like, what?
I didn't do any of this.
I don't understand what's going on here.
I fully understand that it's a small number of times in your childhood, but the problem, if I understand it rightly, with your father's behavior is obviously he had the capacity to work himself into a rage and All on his own.
Without your input whatsoever.
I mean, you didn't even hear the guy until he comes rushing in the room and starts hitting you, right?
Sure. So, that's kind of alarming, right?
That's like saying to someone, there are landmines in the house somewhere under the carpet, but I'm not going to tell you where.
Right. Right now, even if there are only two landmines in the house, I'm going to be terrified everywhere I walk.
Sure. Right? So the fact that he can work himself into this kind of frenzy without your participation at all, the fact that he then took it out on you in a completely unjust manner, I'm imagining that you would say to him at that moment, like, I didn't hear you.
Like, you'd give your reasons as to why he shouldn't be mad, right?
Sure, yeah. But that didn't matter, right?
Oh, no, of course not.
No, I mean, I had, like, you could tell the instant, I mean, I can only imagine, I was five, so I don't have a distinct memory of it, but, I mean, I can only imagine that, I mean, you walk in the room and he's like, why didn't you hear me?
And I've got this blank look on my face, you know, I can't imagine having a different expression where I was like, oh, yeah, screw you.
You know, it had to have been like a blank, like, hear what?
You know? Right, you would have had that blank.
But of course, at this point, he's worked himself into such a frenzy that you're purposefully ignoring him.
He's just worked himself into a right old rage.
Sure. In fact, this happened not even last week when we were having one of our little discussions that have been going so horrendously wonderful, I guess.
I was relating to him some story about another childhood memory that stuck with me about when he did something that I didn't feel was Sure, sure. And I bet you that was pretty scary too, right?
Well, I mean, it was just sort of like, why do you...
Well, it's not even scary to me anymore because I'm looking at my counter here and I have two days, six hours, and 44 minutes left here.
But it wasn't so much scary as it was sort of like, well, here's yet another accusation of something that I had nothing to do with.
Right, I see, I see, I see.
And of course, even if you did...
Even if you did, even if you had told strangers or people that he knew or whatever, it would be rather odd, I think, for his first concern not to be for how you felt, but what other people might think if they knew.
Right, it was more of a, I hope you didn't tell a lot of people this because this makes me sound bad.
Right, which is really pretty narcissistic, right?
Right. Sure.
There's no sense about how it might have affected you.
Right. Well, that's because that was irrelevant.
I mean, we went into this conversation for a little while and I was talking to him about the spanking thing and how, to my mind, spanking is the same thing as hitting, it's just you're doing it on a slightly different surface.
And he said, no, the difference is that, you know, hitting is violent, whereas spanking is, like, you're telling the child this is, you know, if the child's, like, throwing a tantrum or whatever, you're saying this is the end of this debate.
Like, this is where it stops going any further and I'm not talking about this anymore.
We're ending this right now.
And he was trying to get me to agree that it should come down to that.
I'm sorry, I'm just having a little trouble processing that logic.
Sure, I'll go ahead and pretend to be him.
You go ahead and I'll go ahead and blow holes in your story.
But if a child is having a tantrum, and you don't wish to interact with that child anymore, then surely the logical thing to do would simply to stop interacting with that child.
Well, sure, but I mean, his response to that would be that if you, in fact, this is what he said, where if you don't spank the child, at least they know that it's a possibility, which to me was completely warped, but I let him go.
What's a possibility? Sorry, if you don't spank the child?
If the child doesn't know that you are capable of doing that, then the child will run the house.
That is what he told me.
Run the house. As in the child, you know, the child can get whatever he wants because he knows that you will cave in whatever gets the child to be quiet, to quit throwing the tantrum, whatever, you know.
The kid goes into the grocery store with you and he throws a tantrum until he gets a candy bar and you buy him the candy bar.
All of a sudden he knows it just takes a tantrum to get a candy bar.
He's saying that the child has to know that you are capable of spanking them so that the child doesn't think it can get whatever it wants whenever it wants with no consequences.
Right, but I'm not sure I understand why the only option is to give the child the candy bar or beat the child.
Oh, you're preaching to the choir.
I'm on the same boat you are. I was just letting him go to see how far he would take it, basically.
And how does he explain hitting you when you couldn't hear him under this theory?
Is it supposed to improve your hearing?
Is it supposed to give you bad hearing or something?
I mean, is knocking you around supposed to sharpen your senses?
I mean, what's the theory behind that?
Or does he just not remember that?
You know what, honestly, I haven't actually brought that incident up with him.
That actually just came into my mind like a day or two ago.
Right, right, right. A lot of them will come, and you may find that your statistics may alter a little bit, right?
Sure. So it's terrifying that somebody can work themselves into a rage without our participation, can take that rage out on us in a violent manner, and then what really seals the deal in terms of the perpetual terror you're going to feel is no apology.
Right. No, absolutely.
The only apology actually that I can remember is a rather recent one.
But in our house we're in right now, we have power outages probably like once a week.
It's ridiculous. Every time the wind blows hard, the power flashes.
And occasionally when that happens, the lights, like when the power comes back on, the lights come on in some of the rooms.
And... So I was in bed, and I was asleep, and Dad threw my door open, and he's like, what's the deal?
And I woke up, and I was like, what do you mean?
This is a month ago.
And he's like, why didn't you turn any of the lights off?
And I, just out of a dead sleep, thought maybe I left the lights on before I went to bed.
I don't know, maybe I just forgot.
So I was like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, and I got up and I turned all the lights off and everything, including the one in the office that I have no reason to be in there ever, so why would that light be on?
And I kind of poked my head in their bedroom.
I was like, was the office light on when you got up?
And he's like, yeah, you know, sort of accusatorily, if that's a word.
And I was like, maybe the power flashed, and when the power came back on, the lights came back on.
Did you think of that? And there's a pause.
And I just kind of turned and went to bed.
And the next morning, he was like, sorry, I thought you were being contrary.
I was like, oh, that seems like something I would do.
Again, I'm sorry, I'm just missing a little bit of logic here.
So lights came on when the power came back on, and he accused you of leaving them on?
Yeah, well, because I work evening, so I don't get home until after they're in bed, generally.
Right. Because they usually leave the porch light on for me and maybe some, you know, whatever.
So he assumed that I just left the lights on because I was angry at them or something.
I don't know. Wow.
So he's kind of got a whole movie running in his head, right?
Which doesn't require anyone else's participation.
And one of those movies, of course, is religion.
But the other is that, you know, people cross me and people talk about me.
Sure, it's him versus the world, absolutely.
I'm sorry? It's him versus the world, absolutely.
Right, right. Okay, so in a sense, I mean, the aggression that he has is legitimized in his mind as a form of self-defense against a predatory world.
Like a child is going to bully him by wanting a candy bar, and you're passive-aggressive in leaving a light on and being contrary or whatever, right?
Sure. And so the aggression that he has is entirely other people's fault, right?
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
There was even one, it was only a couple nights ago, and this is an example.
What kills me is he constantly accuses me of passive aggression, and that's just never something I've done.
I've never really thought that was a fun or interesting thing to do, you know, as a way of getting back at someone.
It seems to me that, I mean, even if you're going to be mean about getting back at him, you go ahead and get back at him.
Passive aggressive just never made sense to me, but...
His computer broke down for whatever reason, and I got home at 11 o'clock, and he called me into the bedroom, and he's like, hey, my computer is having blah-blah-blah problems.
Well, no, I'm sorry.
That was a lie. First, he accused me.
He was like, have you been rummaging through my computer?
Like, that was how he opened it.
I was like, no, you're, no, why would I? And he's like, alright, well, there's only one pin holding the motherboard, you know, kind of a computer geek.
And he's like, well, there's only one screw holding the motherboard down.
I thought you took some of the screws.
I'm like, why would I do that?
And so, you know, and then that was it.
How could you do this to your poor father?
Oh, I know. Well, yeah.
So anyways, and there was never actually any request to look at his computer.
He just sort of said, oh, this isn't working and this isn't working.
And then I sort of took it upon myself to go in there and fix it because I'm a computer geek and I can't turn down a not working computer.
It's just not within my power.
Well, no, but I mean, also, if you'd have said, well, Dad, are you asking me to fix your computer?
Like, I don't know what's going on here.
Are you asking me to fix your computer?
Like, if you'd tried to bring into clear language what was implicit in what he was doing, what would have happened?
You know, I have no idea.
Well, I bet you do. I mean, of course, right?
Because that would be a sensible thing to do, right?
Like, if my wife is waving at her car saying something, like, do you want me to look at it?
Do you like, well, what do you want from me in this situation?
Are you just telling me, like, you know, there's a tsunami in Buenos Aires?
I mean, are you just telling me a fact that you have a problem?
Like, I have a hangnail?
Obviously, you don't want me to look at it, but...
What is it that you want in this situation?
I don't know what he would have said if I would have asked, but I know that I assumed he wanted me to fix it because there was a passive-aggressive...
It felt like he was accusing me of breaking it, and so I felt like I had to fix it because I broke it, even though that doesn't make any sense at all, if you think about it sort of logically.
It makes perfect sense if you understand this concept of leveling, which I've talked about in the Freaks and Geeks podcast, but I'll just mention it very briefly here.
Your father was in a situation where he needed something from you.
In other words, he was dependent upon you.
And in his mind, to be dependent is to be lower in status, right?
Sure. So if I need something from you, then you are the boss and I am the slave, right?
Because you can just say no, right?
Right. It's a sign of weakness.
Right. So what he needed to do was to invent a situation...
Wherein he could be superior to you rather than inferior to you when he needed you for something.
Sure. Right, so then he insinuates that you have broken his computer and you damn well owe him the fix.
Right, yeah, no, I've been owing them stuff my whole life.
He doesn't have to ask you something as a favor, right?
Right. So, I mean, if you look back at this, right, and this, because apology, an apology, which is where we talked about what you talked about on the board, an apology is throwing yourself at someone else's mercy.
It is throwing yourself into a subservient position.
And it is actually a sign of strength, not of weakness, right?
I mean, if I lower my sword in a sword fight, it's because I've got really good jujitsu moves.
It's not the Obi-Wan Kenobi thing, right?
But if you say, I'm genuinely sorry to somebody...
It obviously puts yourself in a sort of, quote, subservient position, but it takes a strong person to put himself in a subservient position, because then if I put myself in a subservient position to you and you attack me, I have the strength of character and self-knowledge and self-awareness enough to say...
Well, this guy's just being a jerk, so I'm not going to deal with him.
I'm not going to deal with him this way.
But if you're insecure, really like pathologically insecure, and have this kind of core emptiness that narcissists tend to, then it is absolutely unbearable for you to be in the situation of actually asking someone for something, right?
So you have to humiliate them whenever you want something from them, because you feel humiliated, To be in the position of having to ask for something.
So you've got to humiliate back.
Sure. Someone's got to be humiliated here and it sure as hell isn't going to be him.
Right. And this is the same pattern when it comes to your religion or lack thereof.
How's that? Well, the way that you mentioned one of the ways in which he talks about which he tries to humiliate you In public, based on your lack of belief in God, right? Sure. Well, it wasn't in public at the time.
It was actually just in front of me, him, and Mom.
But still, the point remains, he's making me declare it to the household, as it were.
Right. And it's a shot across your bowels, right?
I mean, it may go further from there, but it certainly made you feel a little uncomfortable, right?
Sure, and you know what? I couldn't even, and this was the weird part, I mean, this was just like yesterday or two days, or it was Sunday, ironically.
I couldn't even bring myself to say, like, do you believe in God?
And I couldn't bring myself to say no.
I had to sort of go, well, it's extremely unlikely.
Right. Like, I couldn't even, you know, say no.
He had me in such a tizzy over that that I couldn't even vocalize what I was thinking.
Well, sure, because it's not about God, right?
His religious beliefs have nothing to do with God, have nothing to do with Jesus.
Christianity is a social cult for insecure people.
And I don't know if the insecurity causes them to want to join the cult, or because they join the cult, they end up insecure.
I suspect it's a vicious circle.
Right? But the reason that you don't want to answer the question, do you believe in God, is because your father has no interest in the existence of God.
Because your father is supposed to love his enemies, right?
Right. I mean, he has no knowledge of the existence of God.
He's never had, let's hope, any voices in his head when he prays.
Not that he's told me about.
Good. That's good.
We don't want those kinds of Old Testament dads who drag us up to a mountaintop to sacrifice us.
Because they hear voices. Yeah, right.
So, your father has no knowledge of any belief in God whatsoever.
He has no concern or caring for...
The ethics of religion, right?
And I've never met a Christian who does, right?
The Christians always get angry and petty and passive-aggressive or outright-right aggressive when an intelligent and curious and rational person comes along and spends about seven minutes shredding their beliefs from top to bottom, right?
However nicely you do it, right?
They get resentful, they get...
Because Christianity is just scar tissue, right?
What happened was when your father was growing up, He was punished violently for not expressing faith, right?
So you just, what you do, you express faith, right?
It's like if I'm supposed to kiss the hem of the garment, I kiss the hem of the garment.
If I'm supposed to kneel towards a picture of Stalin, I kneel towards a picture of Stalin, right?
Sure, that was the bonfire argument you gave on that 75 proofs for God.
I have a bonfire, therefore there is a God.
Right, right, right.
So for your father, if you say, I do not believe in God, right?
Because that's the trick, right?
Because if somebody says to you, do you believe in God?
If somebody says to me, do you believe in God?
I say, well, of course I don't believe in things that aren't true.
I don't believe in things that don't exist.
I don't believe in fairies.
I don't believe in goblins.
I don't believe in gargoyles or Nazgul or Gollum or any of these things, right?
Right. Because when you say, I don't believe in God, the linguistic trick is somebody is asking you to say, this thing exists, but I just don't believe in it because I'm unworthy or I'm a sinner or I'm a bad person or I'm resentful or I'm, what was the phrase, contrary that your father used.
You're being contrary. Yeah.
But you say, no, I... I don't believe in things that don't exist.
Of course not. The question is not, do you believe in God?
The real question is, is there a God?
Do gods and devils and ghosts and hobgoblins exist?
And of course, they're just fairy tales.
So it's like somebody says, do you believe in Hansel and Gretel?
Do you believe in pixies?
It's like, what do you mean, do I believe in pixies?
What sane human being would believe in pixies, right?
And your dad's not insane, right?
So there's something that works for him in this belief.
And what works for him is that it gives him power to aggress against others, to humiliate others, to be superior, right?
So your parents go to church.
Are they Sunday best kind of churchgoers?
Yeah, they get dressed up, that kind of thing.
Right. See, this is ridiculous, right?
Christ very specifically said, and this is not just in one place in the Bible, Christ very specifically said, all who would follow me, cast off all your earthly belongings.
Sure, sort of Buddhist-y.
Christ did not show up in a suit and tie for the Sermon on the Mount, right?
Right. So, it's social one-upmanship.
It's that empty kind of status-seeking that narcissistic people are addicted to.
They can't let it go, because...
Fundamentally, they have no independent existence other than, you know, the Randian term, social metaphysicians, right?
Other than the approval and the status that they have relative to other people, they have no independent existence.
So, I think it's very wise for you to steer clear of this topic.
Okay. Because if you get anywhere close to the emptiness at the core of a Christian, a high degree of volatility will result.
That's actually, I mean, this is why I was trying desperately to hold this whole thing off until I left, but that's actually what I was looking for, because, you know, the whole thing about you have to continue beating your head against the wall until you're tired of beating your head against the wall and you don't want to do it anymore.
I decided to go ahead and, you know, take a couple swings at it and just see what was back there, and it turned out to be a little uglier than I thought it was going to be.
Oh no, it's exactly as ugly as you knew it was going to be.
That's why you didn't do it until just before you left.
I'm going to be even more annoying.
That's probably true. No, I guarantee you that it's true.
I mean, I guarantee you that you know your parents and their weaknesses inside and out and their danger and their clear warnings over the years, right?
It is exactly as ugly as you expected it to be.
Yeah, you're right.
And you know what? I've actually been thinking about it because when my girlfriend and I first started dating two and a half years ago, I was a Christian or a Catholic or whatever, and we would have talks about it, and she wasn't trying to bring it down or anything.
She just didn't believe it, and she was going to let me do whatever I wanted, which I suppose is a conversation for a different time.
Yeah. And you know what?
Even now, looking back on it, I didn't really buy into any of it at the time.
Like, going back quite a long time, it never really made that much sense to me.
Right. Right.
No, it doesn't make any sense to anyone.
That's why they have to get these kids young, right?
Can you imagine Richard Dawkins saying, give me a child until the age of nine, and he's mine for life!
No, because you don't need that.
No, because it makes sense.
Sure. So if it makes sense, then you don't need to indoctrinate people in that which makes sense, right?
There's no cult of Socrates, right?
Right. There's no cult of science, because it's reason, it's evidence, right?
You don't need to send children to science school for endless hours when they're children because science makes sense.
Have them color in coloring books.
Right, right. Color the atom and so on.
Why? Because the atom makes sense.
The atom is logical, the atom is empirical, the atom is rational, the atom is testable.
So it is a nonsense which always has to be inflicted on children and nobody believes it because if they believed it, they wouldn't need to inflict it.
Sure, sure. I was actually thinking, like last week, I've been having all these dangerous, crazy, wild thoughts, and I was thinking last week about, you know, all this crazy stuff that I sort of went along with when I was a kid, because it's just, you know, what you do.
And I was thinking specifically about the coloring book thing, and how, you know, you're coloring in these little illustrations of Noah's Ark, and it's like, you know, who was never in those pictures was the thousands of people that were dying?
Like, how freaking horrific is that?
Oh yeah, no, the water would be more full than, you know, a square kilometer of New Orleans, right?
No doubt. So, yeah, it was just, that's what I've been thinking about lately, like how horrific are all these stories that we're putting a happy face on and handing over to children, you know?
For sure, for sure. No, I mean, the commandments of God in the Old Testament, and Jesus, of course, completely affirms that he has not come to alter one bit of the laws in the Old Testament, completely genocidal and murderous, and exactly what you would expect from a primitive Stone Age society built on patriarchy, Rape and blood, right?
I mean, it's exactly what you would expect from that time.
And of course, there's nothing in the Bible that wasn't known at the time.
That would be a pretty...
You know, you have an omniscient being dictating a book.
Yet strangely, not one scrap of knowledge is in the Bible that was not completely available to the human writers of the time, right?
I mean, gee, that would be a pretty good test for me.
God knows everything. He's just not saying one bit more than what the average human being writing it knows.
Right. He's not trying to alleviate any suffering.
He's not trying to...
I was actually reading something online, I forget what website it was, but it was something about all the ritual or the animal sacrifices that are explained in the Bible, and here's exactly how you do it, and here's how you prepare it and everything.
And it sounded to that person, it made sense to me, like the priests were just going, here, cook this thing for me, and then leave me a meal, and then go home and it'll be for God.
That's right. It's really important with the goat to roast it with a little cinnamon.
Sure, sure. Make sure it turns brown.
So, yeah, it's been an interesting sort of eye-opener these last month or two for me.
But more with the family over the last couple of weeks.
What are your plans with regards to your family after you hit the road?
You know, I honestly, I don't know.
I've been thinking a lot about it.
I mean, it's a big decision, as I'm sure you're aware.
It's a big, huge, life-changing kind of thing.
But I don't know.
I'm going to have to, because I feel like the talks that I have with them have to end at a certain point, because I don't want to cross a line that is going to require me to go home.
You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying?
If we're having a conversation after I've moved out, I can say a line that they're going to go, you know what, you need to leave.
And I feel like I have to stop short of that because I still have to live here.
And how long do you have to live there for?
Two days, six hours, 20 minutes.
Oh, no, no. But I'm talking about in the future.
I mean, after this, a year from now.
Oh, yeah. In the future, you know, that's why I'm excited to sort of move out.
And that way I can start having these sort of open, honest, let's see exactly how violent they end up being towards me kind of conversations.
Because I want to see how bad this actually gets so that I can, if I need to make the break, I can certainly do that.
You know what I mean? With a clear conscience, as it were, I guess.
Alright, I'm going to be, again, put Mr.
Annoying hat on. And this is not in any way designed, these questions are not in any way designed to say what you should or shouldn't do with your family, right?
But I think that you've given me enough of a portrait, right?
So, if you can assume that your parents will never change, how would that affect you?
Your future, like you would never be able to be honest with them, that you'd always have to walk on eggshells, that you'd always fear attack or guilt or manipulation and so on.
I mean, if that was going to be the case for the next 30 years of your life until you were 50, would that affect your decision to interact with them or not?
That is a rough one.
You know, like, it's been so easy for me to sort of...
I've been talking to my girlfriend about it a lot lately and about, oh, you know, I'm really excited about not having to talk to them anymore and all this stuff, but it's another thing to sort of, you know, walk the walk, I guess you would say.
Yeah, I noticed that myself. And this is just theory, right?
This is just opinions and theory.
Sure. We're all just talking right now.
Right? We're just talking, right? So go on.
Yeah, but... No, I mean, and you're absolutely right.
There is absolutely no reason for them to want to change.
I mean, that's entirely their call.
But if, yeah, if they're not going to change, then there's nothing for me here.
The only thing that's here for me is, you know, Mom being really sad that I'm not calling and coming over for Christmas and that kind of thing.
But why would they feel bad about that?
Well, It can't be because they love you.
I mean, clearly, just to be perfectly frank, it cannot be because they love you.
Because you're hiding from them.
And you are finding it impossible even to have a basic conversation about values with them where they have even a shred of curiosity about what you really believe.
What you really believe and who you really are is a threat to them.
We don't love threats.
Yeah, I think mom's got a bit of that sort of, but I'll always love them, they're my children, sort of, you know, Hallmark movie of the week kind of thing.
Well, sure, but so what?
I mean, that's, you know, to be perfectly frank, there are people out there who wish Hitler was still alive and love him, right?
I mean, just saying this kind of stuff, just saying, I love, I love.
I don't know if you've listened to the podcast, Your Children Do Not Love You.
Actually, I just listened to it, like, earlier this week.
Oh, okay, okay. It's fresh in the mind.
Right. So, the fact that your mother has a certain kind of sentimentality with regards to you in no way, shape, or form led her to protect you from your father.
Oh, this is one of my biggest complaints with her that I've actually talked to her about.
It's like, you know, you were there the whole time, and even sometimes you disagree with what he was doing, and you just, you know, oh, we have to put up...
I feel like she did it because she felt like they have to put up this, you know, like a unified front.
Like if Dad does something, she has to agree.
Otherwise, they look like they're arguing, and then the kids get a mixed message or something like that.
That would be the closest thing I can think of that she would be thinking.
But yeah, she definitely did her best not to intervene.
Look, that's... Again, I'm going to have to interrupt.
This is nothing wrong. It's just habitual thinking that you have because this is what you had to believe in order to survive, right?
But your father scared you through most of your childhood, right?
Right. Right.
It's your mother's job, if she cares about you, let alone loves you, to protect you, right?
Right. Yeah.
Which she failed to do.
And not only did she fail to protect you, she married a man who was abusive or harsh or cold or frightening towards his children.
And then she cooked him his meals.
It's one thing to not protect someone.
It's one thing to not break somebody out of jail.
It's quite another thing To send birthday cards and give bigs and hugs and kisses to the jailkeeper.
Yeah, you're right.
Not only did she not protect you, she supported and enabled and encouraged your...
I don't want to say abuser because I don't know enough about it, but the man who terrified you.
Right? So, this is why...
It's so bizarre for me to hear the mom say, oh, but I love him, he's my son.
But that's just words, right?
That's just words.
Would I send off my wife, if I care about her, to a job where she was verbally abused?
Yeah, you're right. It basically comes down to, like, yeah, you're saying that, but what are you doing?
Well, just picture your girlfriend, right?
I mean, you guys have had a long relationship for your age, I mean, teenage relationships, like dog years.
You guys are essentially 30 years, right?
To clarify, we're actually mid-20s, but go ahead.
Okay, okay, sorry about that.
That's okay. Okay, so it's not quite dog years, chihuahua years.
But if somebody was verbally abusing your girlfriend, would you stay friends with that person?
No, absolutely not. What if somebody hit your girlfriend?
Would you stay friends with that person?
No. Would you drag your girlfriend over to this person's house when your girlfriend openly expressed fear of this person because of the verbal and physical abuse?
No, that would be borderline hateful, I think, of me.
Borderline? Yeah.
Okay. So is there some part of it that's not hateful that I'm not aware of?
No, that would be outright, yeah, that would be horribly, horribly mean, to say the least.
Well, it would be abusive on your part, right?
Sure. Sure.
So, could you, if you for years dragged your girlfriend, or if she becomes your wife or whatever, over to a person who abused her and frightened her and hit her and so on, How would that show up in terms of, like, if you said, but I love her?
It would seriously question my definition of love, I suppose.
Well, it would detonate it completely.
But let's go one step further.
Let's say that there is this abusive man in your life.
Who abuses your girlfriend and maybe abuses you or is mean or whatever, right?
But maybe throws you some money or whatever, right?
And your girlfriend that you're living with is terrified of him.
What sense would it make to say, hey honey, you know who's moving in with us?
Yeah, that wouldn't make much sense at all.
Well, it would be if you were an abusive human being, though.
Like if you were a pretty nasty human being, in fact a very nasty human being, it would make perfect sense.
Sure. I think with mom it was actually, and I mean this obviously isn't an attempt at justifying it, but to kind of figure out the cause of it, I think with mom it's more of an exceptional low sense of self-esteem.
Coming to bear here, because obviously she's putting up with it, and obviously she thinks it's, you know, the thing to do or whatever, so it seems like it's sort of a, oh, I didn't know what else to do kind of a situation.
Well, but you see, the difference is that a low self-esteem is certainly, obviously, it's to do with it, right?
I mean, but a low self-esteem is what happens when you harm yourself, right?
Okay. I see where you're going with this.
Oh, I'm sure you're already...
I mean, I'm going anywhere. You haven't already gone a million times, but unconsciously.
Now, if you asked this malevolent man to move in with your girlfriend and you, and you knew that he was like a cold and cruel and mean and physically abusive guy who kind of hated her and loved to frighten her and bully her and so on, and then she became...
Physically disabled. And I know this is a stretch, but just go with me for a second, right?
Okay, sure. It's really bad if you invite this guy to come and live in your house, right?
If your girlfriend is able and can call the phone or whatever, right?
Now, what happens, what kind of guy are you, if your girlfriend becomes physically disabled, can't pick up the phone, can't leave, you know this guy's got a real sadistic streak, and you leave him alone with her all day long?
Yeah, I know what you're saying.
That's, uh, yeah.
Because look, kids, kids, I mean, and there's almost no comparator between a child and an adult.
I mean, physical, disabled, right?
She could still, at some point, she could tell you.
But a child has infinitely less freedom and capacity for self-determination than an adult, right?
Sure. And I'm always really anxious.
The funny part is I'm really anxious to, you know, use that argument when I'm talking with other people.
But, you know, applying it to myself, of course, is a whole different can of worms.
Yeah, I'd really suggest working on it for yourself rather than talking about it.
Because you've got great language skills and you've obviously got a top-rate mind, but you want to be careful that you don't shine the searchlight out so far to see that you stumble around because you can't see inside the lighthouse, right?
Right. So, if you get the horror that I'm talking about in terms of what kind of person leaves children at the mercy of scary and violent people, if you get what that would mean to you if this occurred,
or if you did this to your girlfriend, Then this is why I said that your parents, and your mother in particular, can in no conceivable way love you.
Because if you love someone, you don't do that to them, as you just said with your girlfriend.
In fact, you'd only do that to someone you hated.
If you left your disabled girlfriend alone with some cruel, sadistic guy all day, every day, for years upon end, it would not be because you loved her, right?
It would be because you hated her and wanted her to suffer.
I guess nodding doesn't go too well over the speaker or the microphone, does it?
There's a funny book on how to write radio plays called With This Gun that I Hold in My Left Hand.
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
I just, yeah, that's a tough pill to swallow.
Well, it is a very tough pill to swallow, but you're doing fabulously, so I don't want to exhaust you too much, but we can go just one step further, because my goal, of course, is to give you the clear view of your family that you already have.
And look, obviously, you can listen to this again, and if I'm full of baloney, I'm full of baloney, and you can just toss it all out and do whatever you like, right?
This is just my opinion, but...
This is, I think, where...
I think I'm getting some sense of accuracy, so you can let me know in time whether it works or not.
But let's go one step further, right?
Because you're doing so magnificently.
It's beautiful. Okay. Not in tears yet, so let's keep pushing.
No, no. This is a...
Well, this will be relief in time, but...
So the question is, if your parents don't like you, then what do they want you around for?
What would your mother miss? What would feel bad?
If you didn't come home for Christmas, right?
Because she's going to tell you it's because she loves you, right?
Which is going to make you feel like Satan's armpit or something, right?
Guilty, right? Right?
So why do they want you around at Christmas?
Well, I mean, that one's an easy one for me.
That would definitely, I mean, the reason they would want me to call and they would want me over for Christmas and all this different stuff is, you know, to make them feel like I love them despite whatever may have gone down over the past 20 some odd years.
Okay, okay. That's certainly one reasonable answer.
And let me ask you this.
If they went to Mexico for Christmas, would they demand that you come?
I don't... I think they've gotten off the demanding.
They're more on the asking, but I think they would ask.
I don't know if... So they would go to Mexico for a week over Christmas, and they would want you to come and visit them in Mexico?
Uh... You know what?
Probably not, actually.
Yeah, I kind of feel that they wouldn't, but I don't want to impose that on you.
Yeah, no, they invite, I mean, they obviously, if it's a family vacation, yeah, but if it's them going to Mexico, then no.
Right. So they don't want you around if it's just...
I'm not saying this in terms of what we were talking about before, but they will not guilt you into coming by for Christmas if they're away from family, right?
Right. Right.
Okay. So that's an important clue, right?
So they can clearly, just on their own, they can clearly sustain whatever fantasy they want about you, right?
I mean, your dad, when you're five, can imagine that you're Not listening to him on purpose when he's calling for you, and he can imagine that you're doing some screwy thing, taking screws out of his mother or something, right?
So they can make up, and this is the thing you know about Christians.
They can make up whatever the hell they want.
Right. They don't need a God to believe in a God.
They sure as hell don't need you to believe that they're virtuous.
Hmm. And they can believe in a whole creator of the universe that doesn't even exist.
They can believe that guys walk on water and come back from the dead, and that you psychically connect with them to gain salvation in another life.
I mean, they can make up whatever random shit that they want to make themselves feel better.
Right. So, if God isn't necessary for them to believe in God, surely you're not necessary for them to justify themselves.
I never thought about it like that.
I always assumed that it was sort of like a linchpin.
Like, if I wasn't around, they would maybe, you know, be like, oh, I wonder what drove him off.
But God's not around and they're doing fine, right?
Yeah, that's very true.
I hadn't thought about it from that angle.
But then why do they want you at the family gatherings if they don't want you in Mexico?
Oh, I see where this is headed.
It's for the image of it.
I think. Is that...
Well, sure, it's for the image of it, but let's get more specific, right?
Well, it's to show other people that they've been, look at what a good job I did parenting.
Well, there is that for sure, but I think that you are giving your parents entirely too much credit in terms of their courage, right?
Because to be a narcissist, to be a social metaphysician, is to live in terror.
Okay. Okay. If all you are is what other people think of you, right, then when they disapprove of you, you are evil.
Okay, so they're afraid of my disapproval?
No. No.
No, I'm sorry. Look, you're a terrifically smart fellow, and this is why everybody gets retarded.
I'm totally sorry, right?
No, that's fine. And it's 1 a.m.
too, so my brain's working the best I can.
No, no, listen, you're brilliant. It's just that we're not allowed to ask these questions, right?
So I don't know if you've heard any of the other listener conversations, but this is where people's brains seize up, right?
Okay. And this is where my brain seized up for a hell of a lot longer than this conversation, so there's no shame in it, right?
Sure, sure. So, if you are not there at Christmas, what will people say?
To my parents, you mean?
Well, they don't even have to say it to your parents.
We all know what's going to happen.
In fact, it's even worse if they don't say it directly to your parents.
They're going to want to know why I'm not there.
They're going to want to know what What's wrong with Matt?
Why isn't he around?
No, they're not going to want to know that because they already know that.
You have to understand that everybody in your family is a philosopher and a genius.
Okay. It's true.
It's true. Nobody's going to ask, right?
Because if you came from the kind of family where people asked each other about their motivations, you wouldn't be in this mess.
Well, you wouldn't be in this mess called the family, not a mess that you've created but were born into.
to.
If you came from a family where people were genuinely curious about what people were thinking and feeling, then you would come from an empathetic family and you wouldn't have grown up in fear.
So there's no way in God's green earth, so to speak, that these people are going to be curious about where you are.
Okay. You officially dropped me off the train.
I'm sorry, go ahead. You officially dropped me off the train.
I get that part, but I don't know where it's headed anymore.
Sure, sure. No problem. Hey, you know, it only took 40 minutes.
Look at that. I finally pulled it.
No problem. Okay. Well, what your parents fear is not curiosity.
Mm-hmm. In fact, they would find curiosity to be a kind of weakness that they can triumph over, as we can see with your, quote, curiosity about religion.
They have no problem processing curiosity.
They can feel superior to people who are curious.
Okay. Right?
Because curiosity is wisdom, and it comes from doubt, which is healthy.
But narcissists, of course, feel superior in the face of doubt, right?
Because they can't process it because they're empty.
Sure. So... We're back here again.
Right, we're back here again.
So your parents do not fear curiosity because they just won't experience it in that way.
So, of course, what do they fear is...
Oh, this is where you've dropped me.
Sure, no problem. I'm not going to give you the answer, but I'm going to be annoying.
Oh, curse. Okay. Right?
You know this one.
You know this one, but it's hard to process, right?
So your parents' greatest fear is?
Well, it would seem to me that my parents' greatest fear would be, you know, no longer being in control, I would imagine.
That would be the number one.
Sure. Which results in what feeling for them?
Um... Me having power over them?
Well, okay, let's go with that for sure.
I feel like I'm on the price is right.
Okay, go ahead. And survey says, but what happens?
What's the feeling that comes up if somebody has control over them?
A helplessness.
Well, no, because a helplessness would not result in cruelty, right?
Right. If someone has control over them, I would imagine it would slide directly into anger, actually, with my dad.
Right. What's underneath that anger?
What's the anger managing?
You got me on that one.
No, no problem. We can go back to the earlier example of leveling, right?
Mm-hmm. When your dad feels that somebody is superior to him, then what's that feeling?
I mean, yes, there's anger, but the anger comes as a reaction to something, right?
So if you poke me with a stick, I'm going to say, what the hell are you doing?
But the first thing that comes is you poke me with a stick and you hurt me.
Then I get angry, right?
So what is the anger in reaction to?
What is the feeling that is underneath the anger?
What is it, fear?
Well, fear would not cause us to attack.
You broke up at the end there, what did you say?
I'm sorry. Fear would not cause us to attack other than in a very momentary way, right?
So if my wife comes up behind me, not that she ever does, but if my wife came up behind me and was like, boo, right?
Then I'd say, hey, what the hell are you doing?
But then I'd be fine again, right?
Sure. Right?
So fear will cause us the fight or flight, right?
So it will give us a momentary...
You jerk, right? And then we're fine, right?
But that's not what happens with your dad.
With your dad, he managed to maintain this fear over you for decades, right?
Right. So that's a chronic condition.
That's not just a fight-or-flight situation, right?
Right. So if you don't show up for Christmas, your family...
I mean, sorry to be obscure, they will definitely ask, where is he, and why couldn't he make it, and so on, right?
But I guarantee you, I guarantee you, that your parents will experience that as extreme humiliation.
Ah, I felt like, just a second ago there, I felt like, you know, a thousand, hundred thousand podcast listeners were all yelling the answer at me and I couldn't hear it.
Well, yeah, no, absolutely, that may be the case.
And I'm sorry, because it's a little late for me.
No, that's fine. I'm not doing as great a job as leading you there, and I do apologize for that.
That's fine, that's funny. Go ahead, though.
Yes, absolutely, it'd be humiliation.
They will experience humiliation, right?
Sure. So, why do they want you there?
So they don't have to feel that.
Right. They want you there so that they don't have to feel the humiliation that comes from people saying, oh, where is he?
Right. Yeah, that's even what the fear comes out of, is fear of humiliation.
That's what it comes down to, I guess.
Right, right, right.
And, of course, normally...
When your father, and we'll talk about your mother perhaps another time, but I'm sure on re-listening to this you will get the process with your mother as well.
Sure. But when your father feels humiliation, what is his first instinct?
Humiliation, his first instinct is to attempt to, at least as far as with me would go, it would be to attempt to sort of not blame the humiliation, like get someone else to take that humiliation for him.
Exactly, right? The moment he feels humiliated, he gets angry, and then he tries to discharge his feelings of humiliation by humiliating someone else.
Right. Like if I didn't show up for Christmas, it wouldn't be their humiliated.
It would be he's humiliated, which turns into him making me humiliated if I had heard what he was saying about me.
Oh, for sure. Absolutely.
But of course, then they face a very difficult problem, right?
They face a very difficult problem because they can't complain about you too much.
At a Christmas gathering that you don't show up, your parents can't bitch about you.
Because if they do, then people will say, oh, I get why he's not coming here, because they're jerks.
They have to grit their teeth and say, well, he's going through this phase, you know, he's questioning God.
And we think it's a good thing because, you know, when you question God and you come back, your faith is even stronger, so we strongly support him.
They have to come across like sugar wouldn't melt, like butter wouldn't melt in their mouth kind of parents.
But at the same time, they're seething with rage because they feel that you have humiliated them.
Right, absolutely. This is a similar thing.
One of my cousins, probably a year ago, came out as a lesbian, and she was nearly ostracized from the entire family.
Like, in one fell swoop, gone.
Right, right. And the only people that kept her around was our cousins.
The adults wanted next to nothing to do with her.
Like, they invited her because otherwise they would come off looking like jerks, I guess, or something.
But it's complicated, right?
It's complicated. When you defoo, and again, I'm not saying anything about what you should or shouldn't do, right?
I'm just saying that the only reason, right, so they're trying to manage their own insecurities by dragging you over for Christmas, right?
And you think that's not a good strategy on how to deal with people, right?
Right. Absolutely.
That's not fair. We're not here to be slaves to each other's insecurities, and I can't say to you, you need to do this because otherwise I feel anxious or bad, right?
That's called being a tyrant, right?
Yeah, I didn't sign up for any of that.
Well, but you have.
Yeah. And you do it.
And this is the last thing that I say, I promise you.
You're doing magnificently. But you do this, right?
Yeah, no. The only reason that I know that you try to manage other people, your anxiety, through controlling other people, is that your parents want you to come for Christmas because otherwise they'll feel humiliated and angry and thwarted.
But you would consider going there for Christmas because otherwise you would feel guilty.
Yeah, you're exactly right.
You can't use people to manage your emotions.
I mean, you can, obviously, but it's a bad idea.
To be free is to take ownership for our own emotions and say, well, I feel this and it's nobody's fault.
And I'm not going to take action to manage my anxiety.
That's like taking a drug when you feel anxious, right?
Right. That's like smoking pot when you feel nervous, right?
It's just a bad way to manage yourself, right?
Sure. Because it keeps the truth at bay.
It keeps things away. You're not figuring out why it's happening.
You can't figure out why it's happening and you can't change.
The reason that your parents wanted children is because they didn't want to change.
So your dad needed someone to vent on so that he would never have to deal with his own insecurities, so that every time he felt humiliated, he'd have someone to kick, namely you.
And your mom gave the kids to him for that purpose, chose him and had children with him for that purpose, to manage her anxiety.
And your parents want you to come for Christmas to manage their anxiety, and you would go for Christmas to manage your anxiety.
And you're all just using each other now.
They used you, right?
So they are the ones who are responsible.
Right? That's why I was bugging you about, is it equal if you don't apologize to your dad?
Hell no, it's not equal.
He's the father. Right?
He was the father. It's not equal.
I don't care how old you get.
But... The purpose of this conversation, not just this one, but the conversation as a whole, is to become free, which is to stop using other people to manage our own emotions.
Which means that they can't demand you to be there to manage their own fears of humiliation.
I mean, they can, but it's just unjust.
And it is absolutely unjust for you to consider going to see your family to manage your own feelings of guilt.
The reason that you will go and see your family, if you go and see your family, is because you love and adore your family, and my suspicion is it's going to be your family to come, not the cage you were born into.
But we go and see people not based on the principle of negative economics.
Well, I'm going to feel real shitty if I don't see these people, right?
That's using other people to manage your feeling of being, your shitty feelings, which is manipulative, right?
Right. You have to manage your guilt, not by running around the country and going to see your parents, because that's just like taking a drug.
And that's using them in the way that they have taught you how people are supposed to be used, but it's not right.
Right.
Yeah, you're right.
I'm running out of think tonight.
No, listen, no problem.
It feels like...
I'm 2 o'clock in the morning here, so I was just taking a break from my book.
So I'm going to head to bed, but I just wanted to...
I thought that this was an important conversation to have.
Sure.
Because you also have two more days to process this in the belly of the beast, so to speak.
Yeah, and it has helped a whole lot.
It's been a lot of thinking over the past couple months, but a lot more intense thinking over the past couple weeks when we've been having these unfortunate conversations.
Well, I mean, I guess they're fortunate in the long run, but these conversations.
Yeah, it's been an interesting challenge, that is for sure.
Okay, well listen, I certainly do appreciate you hanging in there.
I'm full of admiration, if that means anything to you.
What I'll do is I'll send you a link to this file.
Have a listen to it. You did mention your first name at one point, but I noted down where it was, so I can strip that out if you like.
But there weren't anything else mentioned, and you can let me know if this is okay to release.
It was actually at two points that I sort of went, oh, I shouldn't have done that.
But it doesn't. That's fine.
First name is no big deal. Okay.
I will survive. Have a listen, though, just to make sure you're comfortable with it.
I think this is a very important conversation, and I think that it will do people a lot of good.
But, of course, it's up to you in the final regard.
Okay. Well, thanks a lot for hanging out for an hour and a half or so.
My pleasure, man. I'll talk to you soon.
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