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July 31, 2006 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
31:35
352 The Difference Between Anger and Rage

Understanding differences between 'false self' and 'true self' feelings

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Good morning, everybody. Hope you're doing well.
It's Steph. It is 8.35 in the morning on July the 31st, 2006.
And we are going to talk this morning about some thoughts on the differences between Rage and anger.
Because these two, while seemingly the same emotions, are actually from completely opposite sides of the moral and emotional and psychological spectrum.
And I just wanted to go over it a little bit for reasons for those of whom have been on the board might be somewhat clear.
And I think it's a useful thing in general.
Because one of the great challenges in life, in my experience, is this.
We all want to feel passionately, but sometimes we feel, or at least I've felt in my life, that our emotions get the better of us, or lead us astray, or point us in the wrong direction, or, you know, things to that effect.
So I'd like to talk about useful tips that I've learned or been taught or figured out about how to determine or how to check the difference between emotions arising from the true self and emotions arising from the false self.
Emotions arising from abuse and emotions arising from a sort of healthy assessment of the situation.
And if we can do this, if we can do this, the great challenge in life So I do think that it's very important to be able to differentiate these two, because the great thing in life is to be able to feel what you're feeling and trust what you're feeling.
Trust that what you're feeling is an accurate representation of reality.
And that's a very, very important thing to be able to understand.
So fear, for example, is a really, really good emotion, really healthy emotion, as we talked about on the show Sunday, yesterday.
Fear is a very, very healthy emotion.
But if you suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, which I'll make a case at some point, a good number of us do from our own childhoods, then fear has turned from, because of its overuse, I shouldn't say overuse, it's overstimulation, fear has turned from a friend to an enemy, right?
So fear is good.
Paranoia is bad.
Paralysis is bad. Panic attacks are bad.
But fear is good, right?
So what you need to do when you have had exposure to repeated stimuli that have skewed your emotional radar, and I would say that those repeated stimuli, almost always from our parents, but also as an effect from our teachers as well, when that repeated stimuli has ended up Skewing off or throwing off our radar from that standpoint, then we need to work through the issues, right?
We need to work through the issues and figure out what is actually the case so that we can get ourselves back on track, right?
So we can learn to trust our emotions again.
So fear is good, paralysis is bad, right?
So feeling nervous about asking a girl out is good, because it means that you actually want the girl, right?
If you feel completely indifferent about asking a girl out, that's probably not so good, because it means that there's no desire, and therefore there's no fear of rejection.
So fear is good.
Throwing up on her shoes because you're so nervous is not good, right?
So in this sense, it's the Aristotelian mean that you're looking for, right?
So like, courage is good.
An excess of courage, sometimes called foolhardiness, is bad.
A deficiency of courage, sometimes called cowardice, is bad.
So you're looking for the mean in these sorts of situations.
So anger, of course, is another emotion that is susceptible to this kind of issue.
So an excess of anger called destructive rage or rage is bad.
A deficiency of anger called, you know, being a doormat or having people walk all over you or not being able to defend any legitimate interests that you have is bad.
And when I say bad, I don't mean evil.
I mean, I guess homicidal rage is pretty evil if you act on it.
But... What I mean is that it's not going to get you what you want, and it's going to lead you astray.
Our emotions are, unfortunately, very programmable.
Now, the unfortunate thing is they're very programmable, which means that we adapt to situations where we have an excess of humiliation by becoming irritable.
That's sort of one of the things.
Choleric, they used to call it in the, I guess, 17th or 18th centuries.
And so we will develop these kinds of emotions or these kinds of very strong reactions to emotions through an excess of humiliation and indifference and so on.
So if you have, as we were chatting with the gentleman yesterday on the phone, if you have a family situation wherein there's no particular bond, you never feel particularly valued, you're kind of put up with and fed in a disgruntled kind of way, you're like a dog that some spinster with a lot of cats inherited from somebody's death, right? So her sister died and left her the dog, and she's like, well, okay, I'll...
I'll take care of the dog for the memory of my sister, but I don't like dogs and they're a hassle with the cats.
It's just you're a constant problem.
This is how most parents who don't bond, but the children view their children.
They view their children as a burden, as an imposition.
This is what's so funny about when you get older and if those relationships are not satisfying and you say, well, I think maybe I should not see you, then they're like, oh, no, that's the worst thing in the world, where, of course, the whole time that you're growing up, they seem to find your presence in active irritation.
Don't underestimate the degree to which parents don't like their children.
It's not an uncommon phenomenon at all.
And you've got to look at not just what they say, because all parents are going to say, oh, my children, they are the apple of my eye, the light of my life, the treasure of my days and nights, and all this, that, and the other.
But when you look at how parents actually act, they don't really seem to like children very much.
And that's not very uncommon.
And it's to be drawn in and to mistake this sentimentality for what is actually going on It's something that is exactly the same as those people who are like, well, George Bush says that invading Iraq is the right thing, therefore it's the right thing. You don't look at what he does, you look at what he says.
And parents all say, yes, we love our children, and they were difficult, but we loved them, and we were blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like this as an email on the board that someone's mother sent around.
And it's full of all the treacly sentiments about the mother who only wants her children to feel the best things while she'll take on every harm, right?
Which is called fusion or codependence.
It's not called love. We'll get to that another time.
This kind of issue wherein parents will say, oh, our children, our children, our children, it's completely ridiculous.
And, of course, the more you say it, then the less likely it is to be true.
So we judge people by their actions, not by their words.
Because words are, you know, Hamlet said, words, words, words.
And that old statement, you know...
That actions speak louder than words.
It's all very true. It's not something we remember that greatly now, but it's something that we really should remember, especially when we're talking about our parents.
Don't underestimate the fact or the possibility.
don't dismiss the possibility that your parents love you about as much as the state loves you.
And the state will say that it loves you and it's here to serve and protect you.
And your parents will say that they love you and that they're there to help and nurture and comfort and guide and whatever.
But you simply look at what they do.
Well, the state says that it's here to serve and protect me.
But if I don't pay it 50 cents on the dollar, it throws me in the rape rooms.
So got to tell you, don't really feel that that's compatible with the definition that Christina and I work with, which is not pay me my money or I'm going to throw you in jail.
Right.
That's not how Christina and I work.
And of course, I will absolutely do anything to serve and protect Christina.
No question. So the government says that it's here for you and that it wants to help you and protect you and so on, and it tries to give you all of this nationalistic fervor.
Towards the country? No.
It's always towards the government, because the country doesn't exist.
So the patriotic fervor that's stirred up, the only object it can fix on is the government.
It can't fix on anything else, because the government's the only thing that exists in any tangible form the country doesn't.
And by government, I simply mean a people.
I don't mean any abstract form.
It's just that a government is at least composed of people.
A country... It's a geographical map, right?
I mean, a government at least describes a group of people.
A country simply describes a geographical area, and yes, I guess it could mean the people, but they're not up front telling you what to do, so there's no need to have loyalty to all 270 other million or 280 other million Americans, so...
So this is the kind of propaganda that we see very clearly with the state, where the state says that it's all for us and it wants to help us and it's all about doing good and it's all about being nice and helpful and great and wonderful and we should love it to death.
It was exactly the same thing that our parents tell us, but of course our governments don't care about us at all, except insofar as...
They want to keep us healthy and working so that they can tax us or they want to keep us dependent and enslaved in the welfare state or in jails, of course, so that we can be used as an argument for morality as to why everyone else has to pay for everything.
So our governments don't care about us a bit, except perhaps to the degree that a farmer will care about his livestock in that he lives off them, but he certainly doesn't ever think about setting them free, right?
I mean, if the livestock all get together and sign a petition to the farmer saying, we want to be free, the farmer would say, you couldn't survive without us.
You guys would fall to infighting.
Haven't you ever read Animal Farm?
So I think that it is something that we just need to take into account.
It's sort of a by-the-by, but it is something that's very important.
Because extreme emotions arise when we use false arguments for morality.
That's how we overcome the innate contradictions in the false arguments of morality, is we get angry, we get raging, we rage.
So when your parents tell you that you have to go to church because going to church is good, you have to believe in God, you have to love God, and God loves you, and so on, then you say, well, how do we know that God exists, and blah, blah, blah.
They're very quickly going to get angry.
One of the ways that you know you're dealing with a false self situation is when persistent curiosity and confusion over the answers generates rage.
This is how you weed out the false self from the true self.
Persistent curiosity and an honest expression of dissatisfaction in the answers Which generates rage is how you separate true self from false self-emotions on the other side of the fence when you're debating with someone.
This is obviously not inconsequential relative to the board work that we've been doing over the last couple of weeks with determinism versus free will.
And I'll sort of go into why that is the case, but if you don't mind, let me pull out a metaphor to help describe the actions of anger.
Now, anger is...
I've mentioned this once before, but I'll go into the metaphor in a little bit more detail.
Anger can be, I think, productively viewed as the mental antibodies of one's personal space and values.
So, just as when a cold virus enters your system...
You want your antibodies to fight it and to map it and to keep it from attacking you again, right?
That's sort of what the antibodies do, right?
They map the cold virus and, of course, there are 120-odd cold viruses, so by the time you're 80, you're done with colds, right?
Of course, that's not probably high on the list of ailments, but your antibodies will identify the cold virus, and they will attack it, and they will map it so that they can fight it off again.
But this is exactly the role that anger is played psychologically.
So when somebody... So, for instance, if somebody is at work, you're a salesman, and your boss tells you to stuff the pipe, to reduce the price of stuff below profitability, to end up with more sales that are going to artificially raise this year's numbers or this quarter's numbers, while sadly depressing next year's numbers.
Not only is he interfering with your professional ethics, integrity, the success of the company, and so on, But he's also taking money from you, right?
Because he's asking you to sell stuff cheap, which means that you're going to get a lower commission.
And this is the same stuff that you probably will be able to sell next quarter.
And you will get a greater commission because you'll charge a regular price for them.
So, on every level, a commandment like this is going to end up with you having your values, a person's interest, and so on, violated, intruded on, stomped on, whatever you want to call it.
So, of course, this is going to make you angry.
This is going to make you angry.
Now, what you do with that anger is up to you, and there's lots of political ways that you can deal with this kind of situation, right?
You can intelligently, I mean, you want to get this guy fired, right?
That's the major thing that you want to do.
You don't want to debate with him, because he's already kind of put his cards out on the table, right?
As somebody who is willing to screw your interests.
You might want to sort of say, well, I've got to sit down with you, I've got to tell you the problems that I have with this, and the guy's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, don't worry, I'll make it up to you.
Right? I mean, trust me, right?
I've shown what kind of stuff I do ethically, but I think it's very important that you trust me now, right?
That's not going to be a very believable situation.
So, what I would do is, perhaps, I mean, it depends on the politics of the environment, but what I would do is something like this.
That I would wander into my boss's office, and I would, on some context, and I would let drop that, I'm surprised that the company has changed course with regards to stuffing the pipe.
Right? We're selling stuff below value to increase numbers.
And the guy would say, what are you talking about?
And then you'd say, oh, I'm sorry, maybe I put a foot wrong here, but my boss just asked me to stuff the pipe pretty significantly.
And I told him it was wrong, and he said, no, no, no, it's whatever, it's policy, just go ahead.
And I'm just surprised.
You know, I've been working at this company for five years, and it's always had a pretty, well, very high degree of integrity when it comes to sales and so on.
And it's just surprising to me.
I mean, of course, what happens is the guy's going to say, holy shit, you know, I've got to go talk to this guy.
And then you have to say, look, I mean, obviously you recognize the sensitivity of the situation.
Please, please, please, I rely on your discretion in this matter.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You don't go in and start screaming at your boss and call him a pussy I mean, that isn't going to do you much good at all.
Because one of the things that really destructive people do is they provoke other people to rage through obvious violations of persons' property, integrity, and so on values.
And then when the other person gets really angry and screams at them, they go, hey, what's going on?
I didn't know that there was a problem.
I mean, this is inevitable, right?
And, of course, you can easily get fired.
Certainly, I've fired people for insubordination.
That's, you know, where you just swear at your boss in a meeting.
That's definitely a no-go.
And that's something you can get fired for summarily.
There's no paperwork that's required.
There's only witnesses that are required.
So the first thing you have to do is recognize that your interests and values are being violated.
Now that... It requires quite a lot of work up front, and it shouldn't, because we should learn this stuff from day one, but our natural defenses and our natural hostility and anger towards those who are violating our interests is always broken because the first people violating our interests are our goddamn parents.
So, we're not allowed to develop these things.
In fact, we are actively brutalized into not getting these things, into not developing this kind of healthy stuff.
So, let me tell you a little bit about how it looks from the healthy standpoint when it comes to anger.
Well, when somebody violates your values, the first thing that you have to recognize is that you have values and that they're important.
This is why it's sort of important to live your life with integrity as we were talking about yesterday.
If you're going to have values, then you should really act as if they're important.
Otherwise, you shouldn't bother having them because values are a pain in the neck if you don't act with integrity.
And they're a pain in the neck occasionally even when you do act with integrity.
So the first thing that you want to do is recognize and clarify your values and to recognize and clarify that they are important, that you need to act consistently, which is why I say get the corrupt people out of your life who are actively undermining and destroying your values, because you really do need to get...
This stuff front and center in your life so that you can defend it and defend yourself and live not having to think everything out like Hamlet on uppers, but can actually just rely on your values in a very solid and concrete way.
That's very important, and the way that you do that is you live your values consistently.
I mean, if you're trying to train for an event, then what you want to do is you want to go out and train consistently.
If you're training for a marathon, you don't want to go out and run 10 kilometers every month.
It's just going to leave you injured.
You need to be a little bit more consistent so that you can actually win the marathon of morality.
Yeah, that's it. That's the metaphor that works beautifully, let me tell you.
So... You have to recognize that your values are important and you do that by combing over them, by debating them, by making sure that...
And once you've decided on them, and of course it doesn't take very long to decide on the basics like honesty and the need for respect for who you are as a human being and respect for your ideas and respect for your confusion and respect for your emotional blocks because we all have them.
And once you have that, and that shouldn't take you more than 30 seconds to figure out that something like honesty and integrity and respect for your beliefs and respect for your opinions and respect for others, all of those things are things that you need to have in your life.
But there are more complicated ones, like how do you deal with anger and so on.
But the basics you can decide in about 30 seconds.
And once you decide that those things are important in your life, then you need to start living them.
Otherwise, don't bother. Just go back to sort of acting on the spur of the moment, depending on whatever happens to strike your central cortex.
That's what you should pursue.
So the first thing, you know, figure out your values, figure out the basics, which you can do very quickly, comb over them, and then just act consistently with them.
And what that will do is it will get your unconscious to go, oh, we really are serious about this.
Great. Well, then I'll start putting the emotional apparatus in place to deal with it, right?
So then once you get that your values are important and that you are important and there's certain behavior you will tolerate, certain behavior you will love, and certain behavior you will get angry at, then you start living that way consistently.
And you can't be any more assertive at work than you are with your family.
You can't be any more assertive In your romantic relationships than you are with your family.
This is a very fundamental thing.
You can't be any stronger than the link in your weakest chain.
A chain can't be any stronger than its weakest link.
This is why I say get your corrupt family out of your life.
Because you can't be any stronger fundamentally and over the long run in your life in any context than you are with your family.
So, you live consistently if people don't come up to your standards of behavior which are rational and objective and mutual.
So, mutual. They're reciprocal.
So, you don't humiliate other people.
I mean, if people attack you or if people harm your interests...
You don't humiliate them.
That's false self-vengeance.
That's petty and it's rather sad.
And unfortunately it's very destructive to you.
The other person it's not that bad for.
It's a little disconcerting and it's upsetting to a small degree.
But the person that it really hurts is you.
So that's not what you want to do.
Because it makes you mistrust yourself.
And it also confirms that this is a reasonable and healthy way to deal with people.
And it also sows fear in you when you attack and try and humiliate someone publicly.
It sows fear in you that that is going to happen to you if you put a step wrong.
In the arena of public debating or wherever it is that you are, it's going to create a lot of fear.
You're normalizing abuse and it's going to create a lot of fear in you and it's going to lend you to be uncomfortable with your own emotional apparatus.
Like, how the hell did I end up doing that?
Right? So, don't do that for sure.
That's a bad thing. It's like your antibodies, when you get a cold, you don't want them to humiliate the cold virus, right?
You just want them to get rid of the cold virus.
You don't want them to burst into tears.
You don't want them to complain to the other antibodies about what a nasty cold virus it is.
You just want them to effectively and efficiently move in to eliminate the problem.
Which is why I'm sort of saying if your boss tells you to stuff the pipe, you get them canned.
And it's not that hard to do.
Or there's another way of doing it, which I've done in my career, which is when your boss and your boss's boss are in the same meeting, you bring up something that you know is going to push your boss's buttons and make him really angry.
And that is going to cause his rage to spill out in the meeting, and you just simply, in an innocent, wide-eyed way, continue to provoke his anger.
And that is going to spill out in the meeting, and that's probably going to get him canned, right?
Because people don't want screamers in their organizations.
Or if it doesn't get him canned, then you need to leave the organization, right?
Because then it's a whole pile of homicidal maniacs or sociopaths or whatever who are piled on top of each other, and that's not where you want to be, right?
So you need to find somebody higher up in the chain who's got some ethics, and if you can't find anyone, then look around.
Everyone's probably in fatigues.
Anyway, so you need to really recognize that Your goal, when you're really violated, your goal is simply to eliminate the problem.
You don't want your rage to engage the other person.
You don't want to make them more angry any more than you would want your antibodies to inflame the cold virus and make it more virulent, right?
It's not exactly where you want to go.
This is also something, you can find this on the board.
Somebody posted in a very courageous and God be praised for their courage kind of manner.
Somebody posted on the board the letter that he was considering sending to his mother, saying that he needed a break, and it went into very great detail about all of the wrongs that she had done him, and then it included links to two podcasts, Mother and then Girlfriend, which I did for another listener, Mother and then Girlfriend, which I did for another listener, and that was his sort of quote farewell, but of course that is going to inflame her and make her come in and debate with him, and make her come in and tell him that he's wrong about this, that, and the other, or come
him and make her come in and tell him that he's wrong about this, that, and the other.
Or come in and say, but you misunderstood all these things or whatever, right?
You don't want to inflame...
The opposition, so to speak, when you want to get them out of your life.
And when you get to that level of anger, all you want to do is get these people out of your life.
You don't want to engage in them.
You don't want to inflame them.
You don't want to burst into tears.
I mean, all those things may happen as you go through this process of getting in touch with healthy anger.
But anger is just about an antibody.
It doesn't engage. It doesn't provoke.
It's fight or flight. It's not debate.
Anger is fight or flight. It's not debate.
It's not fight, for sure.
Certainly, that's at a physical level, right?
It's fight or flight.
And so, if somebody's humiliating you verbally or something like that, then it's just fight or flight.
And there's no point fighting, because they're not actually harming you physically, right?
The fight part is for the saber-toothed tiger that's jumping on you or something.
But you absolutely don't want to get involved in these kind of debates with people, because...
You just have to look at your own feelings and figure out, are you done with this person or not?
Now, if you're not done, and we'll talk about the sort of specific thing about sending humiliating letters to people or sending letters to people outlining everything that they've done that's wrong and bad and evil and corrupt to you, well, if you have hope for the relationship, if you feel that there's any chance of saving a relationship with your mother, let's say, we'll use that example, Then you really don't want to send that letter.
I mean, that kind of letter, you are absolutely detonating the entire relationship.
No question of that.
No possibility of the relationship being survivable or beneficial or workable in the future.
Right? It's just, you know, if you scream at your wife, you're an effing bitch, I hate you forever, I'm going to get divorced, and then I'm going to stalk you, well, it's kind of tough to sort of make up from that, right?
It's not like, hey, let's go to your parents tomorrow, right?
I mean, that is a detonation in a relationship, and you simply cannot in any way, shape, or form recover from that.
I mean, you can limp along for a while if you want, you can limp along for the rest of your damn life if you want, but your relationship is done once you have that kind of Once you have that kind of feeling, so you don't even have to say it.
In fact, if I had that kind of feeling towards a woman, I wouldn't say it.
I'd just say, well, you know what?
I'm sorry, but we're done.
There's no point.
You're done. So there's no need to reach in and try and correct the other person, because you're done.
It's sort of like you decide to quit your job because you hate it, and then a day before you leave, you have a performance review, and A, you attend, and B, you argue about it.
It's like, who cares? You're done.
You're gone. You're out of there.
You've checked out. You probably checked out months or years ago.
Actually, it's more like showing up after you've left the job, showing up the next year for your performance review and arguing about it.
Right? I mean, it's ridiculous.
You don't even bother. You don't even show up.
So, that's a pretty fundamental thing to understand about anger.
That anger is about eliminating the source of the problem.
I don't mean in any violent way or anything like that.
But anger is not about engaging.
Right? Right? That's more like rage.
That's more like pettiness. That's more like...
Because if you think that there's a chance for the relationship, then you don't send off harsh and blitzy emails or letters.
And if you don't think there's a chance for the relationship, then all you're doing is looking for a parting shot that's going to inflame your opposition, right?
So, to use the cold virus metaphor, maybe for the last time, maybe not.
There's no way to tell. If your antibodies are just about to eliminate the cold virus, and you then sort of can look down on a microscope and you can see them preparing an insulting letter to the cold virus saying, na-na-na-na-boo-boo, we beat you, you're made of noodles, or something like that.
And you know that if that is then emailed to your cold, that the virus is going to get a new lease on life.
And it's going to start to swell up and so on.
Well, you'd probably say to your antibodies, listen, do you mind not sending that email to the cold virus?
Because, like, we're almost done here.
Really, what's the point of inflaming it and starting this whole fight all over again, right?
It really doesn't make any sense.
And that's exactly the case with anger.
Anger is around eliminating.
And it doesn't mean you don't get hot blooded.
And it doesn't mean that your pulse doesn't race.
And it doesn't mean that you don't get angry.
It means all of those things.
But it doesn't mean that you get petty and vengeful, and it certainly doesn't mean that you try to humiliate somebody.
That's false self-rage.
That is not healthy anger.
As I said, you don't want your antibodies to humiliate a cold virus.
You just want your cold virus out of your system as quickly and as efficiently as possible.
And that's what anger is all about.
That's what healthy anger is all about.
It doesn't engage with crazy people.
It simply gets rid of them, out of your life.
Your antibodies don't try and get rid of all the cold viruses in the world, although mine do, because that's my podcast.
But when you're dealing with your parents, you don't go out and try and cure their crazy, right?
If your antibodies can cause you to eject the cold virus in a sneeze, which of course is partly what they're trying to do, Then you don't want your antibodies pouring out into the air to try and nail the cold virus that's floating around in your drops of mucus.
You don't want any of that at all.
You're like, okay, well, we got rid of those.
Let's just deal with the ones we got left.
We don't chase out into the world and try and cure other people's craziness.
Right? So, you just get your parents out of your life, but you don't send your energies out provoking them and arguing with them and debating with them and telling them how they're wrong and sending them links to my podcast so that you can get the final shot in, so that you can get the final in.
Well, you don't want to do that.
I mean, I know that you want to do that, but that's their way of doing things.
That's not a healthy way of doing things.
Those potting shots and those public humiliations and those raging, raging attacks on integrity and so on, that's your parents' way.
That's your father's way of doing things, my friend.
That's not a healthy way of doing things.
That's not a healthy way of doing things.
And so, when it comes to anger, the first thing that you need to do is to comb over your values and live with integrity and get the corrupt people out of your life.
Don't get angry until you've done at least that.
I mean, you'll get angry, but don't act on it, because it'll be way too close to destructive rage.
And that is going to confirm the kind of abuse that you experienced as a universal phenomenon.
It's going to sow the seeds of fear in your life.
It's just going to be a bad thing all around.
So, once you've got the corrupt people out of your life, and once you have really reaffirmed your values, combed over your values, and really lived with integrity, then, when you get angry, you can trust it.
And that is a wonderful, wonderful feeling.
So when you feel something is wrong, or when you feel something makes you irritated, or something's giving you a hassle, or something's giving you a problem, or something's making you really angry, then you can trust that feeling that it's accurate, that it's not a leftover false self-rage based on existing abuse, but it is actually a healthy and positive aspect of your life that's there to help you.
And you can trust it.
You can let it inform you.
You can let it inform your actions.
And that is going to be a very positive, positive thing for you because anger, especially in the realm of morality, is absolutely essential.
But false self-rage is the complete opposite of it.
So thank you very much for listening.
I hope that you enjoyed it. And thanks for everyone who called in to yesterday's show.
Looking forward to some donations and also listener surveys.
And we are...
Well, we...
Some enterprising listeners are putting some final touches on the new Freedomain Radio board, which should be quite exciting, and we will have up in some unspecified amount of time, but it won't be too long.
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