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Aug. 24, 2023 - Sean Hannity Show
35:32
Burner and Eggers - August 23rd, Hour 2
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Right hour to Sean Hannity's show.
Thanks for being with us, 800-941-Sean.
Our number, you want to be a part of the program, programming note, Hannity, tonight, right after the Republican GOP primary debate.
That's 9 to 11.
We're on at 11 straight up.
We'll look forward to seeing many of you then.
We'll have some of the candidates on.
I'm not putting all of them on.
Some of them are not worth your time.
So those that I think are serious candidates, in as much as they're putting forth ideas and want to win and don't have other agendas, will get some airtime as they rightly deserve.
Anyway, so we go to the Biden, what I'm calling the Joe Biden bribery, money laundering scandal allegations that are out there.
This all got started thanks to the Government Accountability Institute and Peter Schweitzer and Secret Empires and a book that he launched in 2018 on this show.
It's unbelievable.
It's taken so long to actually get to the bottom of all of this.
And now I will say that there is a cancer that is a clear and present danger to the presidency of Joe Biden.
And that is, you know, this has gone off the rails for them in ways I'm sure they never anticipated.
You know, this whole bragging moment of, you know, I told them you're not getting a billion dollars.
You're not getting a billion dollars.
They're not going to get it unless you fire a prosecutor.
Okay.
Well, that was the quid and the pro and the quo that I've been telling you about.
And their entire defense now has just evaporated and fallen apart.
And we now know from John Solomon, justthenews.com, that in fact, Joe Biden was even going against the Obama administration's stated policy that it was they had approved this $100, this billion-dollar loan guarantee that Joe was there to deliver.
But he goes before the Council of Foreign Relations, bragging he unilaterally withheld the billion, and son of a bee, they fired him.
And this is the real quid pro quo.
You know, Peter Schweitzer said on his podcast recently, drill down is what they call it, but anyway, that this is a direct bribe, quote.
This is a quid pro quo, quote.
The bottom line is it doesn't matter if you demonstrate a single penny went to Joe Biden because bribery can mean paying off your family.
In other words, family enrichment.
That happened as a result of his official actions.
That was exactly what was written in the 1023 form that the DOJ and the FBI did not want to give to Congress.
And we only know about it thanks to the courage of people like Ron Johnson and Charles Grassley making it public and James Comer.
Anyway, if a family gets paid, the politician performs a service for it.
You know, what would you call it?
Anyway, now Seamus Bruner is going to join us in a second, found even more evidence on Hunter's laptop.
We're going to talk to him about that now as we welcome in Eric Agers.
He's the host of the Drill Down podcast with Peter Schweitzer, Vice President, Government Accountability Institute.
Seamus Bruner, Director of Research for that same organization.
Welcome both of you back to the program.
Seamus, my understanding is You have spent more time on Hunter's laptop in all likelihood than Hunter has spent.
Is that true?
Yeah, that's right, Sean.
It's great to be with you.
You know, my lawyers would not let me get an offered copy of that laptop.
And the understanding at the time was they thought that they were, well, let's just say, pornographic images of young people and just having it in my possession, if it was there, I don't know if it is or not, you would know, could it constitute a crime in and of itself?
Yeah, we had lawyers look at this.
Now, there was a lot of made about those images back around the election.
Thankfully, I have not seen anything like that on there.
I stuck to the emails and the text messages and the documents.
And the documents and the emails are damning enough.
I mean, we don't need to get into any photos of crack cocaine and all of that, but that is there.
The documents and the emails show absolutely Joe Biden is involved, fully involved.
We've always known this.
It's never been about Hunter.
And that there was a quid pro quo in Ukraine, something that is absolutely an impeachable offense.
The Constitution demands that bribery, if that occurred, it demands impeachment.
All right, let's talk about, now we do, you know, Peter talked about, well, Joe Biden didn't personally have to be enriched.
However, in emails to the money guy within the Rosemont Seneca company is a guy by the name of Sherwin.
And there are specific emails that lay out specific costs for repairing Joe's home and what accounts they're going to be paid out of.
Hunter himself implicates his father.
Pops takes half his income, 10% for the big guy.
It looks like Joe took these actions.
It benefited, according to James Comer, nine family members and Joe himself.
Yeah, Sean, that's exactly right.
I mean, Joe Biden's entire family has been taking money, selling access to, I mean, Devin Archer calls it the, quote, Biden brand.
And it wasn't just the illusion of access.
It was full-blown access.
And in the case of Ukraine, Joe Biden took a official policy.
He went and leveraged our taxpayer money, the billion dollars, unless you fire this prosecutor.
Now, there's been this pushback from the left saying that the prosecutor deserved to be fired.
Everybody was in agreement, but you're right to cite the Solomon story.
There was not consensus.
There were plenty of people at the State Department who thought Shokin was doing a good job.
And then if you follow that quote from Joe Biden at the Council on Foreign Relations, and then they put in place someone who is solid, I mean, what does he mean by solid?
The replacement for Shokin, this guy, Yuri Litsenko, was anything but solid, but he made the Burisma investigation go away.
So, I mean, this is as corrupt as can be.
Let's talk about what other emails you saw that implicates the Bidens.
Yeah, so this, I mean, the news of last week and into this week where James Comer has released this email coming from one of Joe Biden's vice presidential staffers where he copies Hunter and only Hunter on this email about Joe's upcoming call with Ukrainian President Poroshenko.
Why is Hunter being copied?
Everybody's talking about the pseudonym that Joe's using.
But the really important detail about this email and the call with Poroshenko is that this is the payoff.
This is the time of the payoff for the billion dollars.
Ukraine fires the prosecutor after Joe Biden demands it in March of 2016.
And this email that Comer has highlighted is now May of 2016.
Just one week after this email, Ukraine gets the billion dollars, the billion dollars for firing the prosecutor.
And so the fact that Hunter Biden was looped in on this, this would allow Hunter Biden to go and call his paymasters at Burisma and say, you know, case closed, we got it done.
Let's move on to a next deal.
We see on the laptop at this very same timeframe, May 2016, Hunter is talking about new deals with Burisma, new ways to get paid.
Joe's now delivered.
It looks like Hunter was worth the million dollars a year they were paying him.
All right.
So now the question is, does that violate the law?
Do you know if Hunter had a security clearance?
I can't imagine somebody addicted to drugs and violating, you know, likely violating gun laws and everything else would have a security clearance.
Would that be acceptable to share that information with Hunter?
I would think not, especially because sharing U.S. government, I mean, just all of this is paid for by U.S. taxpayers.
You know, Biden's staff is paid for his emails and his schedule.
All of that is paid for by taxpayers to provide this taxpayer-funded information to a private citizen who is then going to go leverage that to cash in and make a million dollars a year so that he can tell his Ukrainian, corrupt Ukrainian oligarch benefactors, this is what the U.S. government is doing.
You've got a secret sneak peek inside of the vice president's office.
I mean, I don't know that we've ever seen anything like this.
Eric Edgars, let's get your take on all of this.
No, I think Seamus is exactly correct.
We haven't ever seen anything like this.
And we would probably not see anything like it again if the Bidens hadn't been so good at it and gotten away with it for so long.
I mean, remember this, Sean.
Joe Biden gets appointed to be the Obama administration's point person on Ukraine's policy.
Two months later is when Hunter Biden gets hired by Burisma in the first place.
So, I mean, the good news is that the evidence is there in plain sight if anybody willing to look at it.
The bad news is the Bidens are good at this.
Seamus uncovered in an email that November of 2015, Joe Biden is point person on Ukraine policy.
Hunter Biden is being paid by Burisma.
And the Burisma executives at some point say, hey, wait a minute, you're actually not doing that much.
What are we paying you all this money for?
One month later is when Joe Biden then starts to put the pressure on to get the thing done they asked for, to get this prosecutor removed.
So the bad news is the Bidens are very effective because from November, when Burisma tells Hunter, hey, what are we paying you for?
Within five months, it's done.
So they're wildly effective.
The evidence is in plain sight.
And I'm glad the House Oversight Committee is doing the work to help bring this thing to the public.
And I expect, you mentioned the Republican debate tonight.
I expect we'll probably hear more about Hunter Biden tonight than we've heard on other mainstream news outlets for the last five years.
I'm not really sure we will necessarily.
I honestly am not sure that that's going to be the case.
If ever there was a case to be made, I think this is the one on these very serious and significant charges.
But now we have another problem, and that is the guy that investigated Hunter for four years, Eric, David Weiss, he didn't plan on bringing any charges against Hunter.
He's the one that let the statute of limitations run out on many tax crimes, and he's the guy that ignored the FARA, potential FARA violations.
He's the guy that then came in with the sweetheart deal only because the IRS whistleblowers kind of blew his cover.
And even the judge in this case, had the judge not looked deep into the plea agreement, especially the gun diversion provision of this agreement, where they buried full immunity for Hunter in there.
And then the judge asking the prosecutor, have you ever seen a deal like this before?
The answer was no.
And why would that judge sign off on a deal like that?
The judge did not, thankfully.
Well, now Hunter is going to probably face real charges, but it's not, to me, so much a Hunter Biden issue.
Hunter gets nothing but for daddy and daddy's actions here.
Isn't that correct, Eric?
Well, that's absolutely right.
And that's why I think, I mean, that's always been the story, right?
And that's why the pictures on Hunter's laptop, the pornography, the drugs, that your lawyers probably smartly kept you out of legal ramifications for, that's not what matters.
People will focus on that.
But the real story is that Joe Biden worked hand in hand with his son to effect official U.S. policy, effect aid towards the country that was facing the Russian invasion and essentially threatened against Obama administration policy to withhold that money unless they did the favor that would benefit his son's business.
And as we talked about in the podcast most recent episode, that money went to his family.
Now, it's not unusual for the Bidens to make money, but I think it's fair to say that they were so successful at being paid by Berezma because of Joe Biden's ability to shape U.S. policy.
Hunter's making over a million dollars a year doing that, but I think that probably then emboldened them to grow the business and try other things, which is, as you mentioned, includes up to $31 million to other Bidens from China, for example, that's money that's linked to Chinese espionage rings.
So, I mean, this is one of, unfortunately, not a small number of examples of the Bidens cashing in because of Joe Biden's ability to at least appear to deliver goods.
When it came to barrel, he actually did deliver.
Well, he also is having dinner with oligarchs.
And, you know, some of our top geopolitical foes, the former First Lady of Moscow, Devin Archer, even confirmed, $3.5 million in one deal, $120 million invested in a real estate deal.
And, you know, none of these people had any experience that we can tell in any of these fields or any of these endeavors.
What did they do for the money?
What did the grandkids do for the money?
Apparently, they got paid, according to James Comer.
You have any idea what they did to earn that money, what services they performed, Seamus?
Because I can't see any except for getting Joe involved.
Yeah, Sean, there's a reason why it is some of the sketchiest, most corrupt oligarchs in the world that are paying the Bidens.
This is a business model that you saw with the Clintons.
They went to Kazakhstan and Bill Clinton takes these photo ops with the dictator for life of Kazakhstan.
You see the Clintons in Russia.
There's a reason that countries like this and oligarchs like this pay the son and the family of, let's say, Joe Biden.
It's because Joe Biden will then go and lend the credibility, lend the reputation of the U.S. government, and he rehabilitates these oligarchs' reputations.
I mean, first it starts with Hunter, and he, you know, takes some photo ops with this Zlachevsky head of burizma, and then that guy can go and show, you know, various prosecutors who are looking into him, no, look, the son of the vice president, trust me, I'm a good guy.
And then when you get Joe Biden coming in and putting pressure on the prosecutors to make the case against these oligarchs go away, and it's the same with China, it's the same with Russia.
The reason the Russian oligarch Bacharina gave millions of dollars, 3.5 million is the floor, 200 million seems to be the ceiling to Biden-linked businesses is because her money might get sanctioned.
Well, guess what?
Once you give the money to the Bidens, it doesn't get sanctioned.
So it's a very corrupt business model that multiple, I mean, Joe Biden, the Clintons have engaged in, and there needs to be rules against all family members of public officials taking money from foreign governments and oligarchs.
I think we have those rules.
They're called laws.
And I think we have a legitimate bribery, money laundering, scandal, allegation, and yet we have a jokester, a friend of Beau Biden's with an office full of Biden sycophants that tried to wash it all and sweep it all under the rug.
Thankfully, that didn't happen.
Great work, as always.
We appreciate it.
Eric Eggers, Seamus Bruner, thank you both.
800-941-Sean, our number.
You want to be a part of the program.
Hey there, I'm Mary Catherine Hamm.
And I'm Carol Markowitz.
We've been in political media for a long time.
Long enough to know that it's gotten, well, a little insane.
That's why we started Normally, a podcast for people who are over the hysteria and just want clarity.
We talk about the issues that actually matter to the country without panic, without yelling, and with a healthy dose of humor.
We don't take ourselves too seriously, but we do take the truth seriously.
So if you're into common sense, sanity, and some occasional sass.
You're our kind of people.
Catch new episodes of Normally every Tuesday and Thursday.
On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen.
Hey there, I'm Mary Catherine Hamm.
And I'm Carol Markowitz.
We've been in political media for a long time.
Long enough to know that it's gotten, well, a little insane.
That's why we started Normally, a podcast for people who are over the hysteria and just want clarity.
We talk about the issues that actually matter to the country without panic, without yelling, and with a healthy dose of humor.
We don't take ourselves too seriously, but we do take the truth seriously.
So if you're into common sense, sanity, and some occasional sass.
You're our kind of people.
Catch new episodes of Normally every Tuesday and Thursday.
On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen.
All right, 25 now to the top of the hour.
Thank you for being with us.
800-941 Sean, if you want to be a part of the program.
All right.
Let me play.
This is pretty interesting.
The DNC chair saying Americans aren't connecting to good things going on with the president on the economy.
Okay.
Let me just remind you.
The average family is saving close to 10, is now costing the average household close to $10,000 a year more for the same items that they would have purchased in the last day Donald Trump was president.
This is insanity by any measure.
Anyway, but you're supposed to believe that the gas price is now nationally, once again, we're very close to $4 a gallon on average.
In California, it's $5.50 on average per gallon.
And this is all because of the economic, energy, climate alarmist, religious cult agenda of Biden and his Democratic socialist buddies.
It's all happening, but you're not supposed to believe that, according to the DNC chair.
63% of Americans disapprove of the way that the president's handling the economy.
His campaign thus far has focused on the economy.
It does not appear to work.
Why?
Well, you just got to keep going out there, making sure that people connect the good things that are going on with the president because they're happening because of his policies.
Oh, okay.
It's all happening because of his policies.
That's the point.
We're blaming you.
They're so out of touch with how real Americans are suffering these days.
It's unbelievable to me.
You know, when you have 61% of the country living paycheck to paycheck, and then you have other people struggling so much they're putting, you know, bare necessities on their credit cards at high interest rates.
And then when you look at the $54,000, $55,000 on average the average American has in debt.
No, things are not going well at all for most people.
I've been there for a long period of my life.
I struggled paycheck to paycheck to paycheck.
It sucks.
And the worst part about all of this is it's all self-inflicted.
Biden's border crisis, those are his policies.
He didn't have to open the borders.
Now he's cutting holes in Donald Trump's fence and wall so that illegal immigrants can get in more easily.
How nice of him.
And, you know, look at the energy problem.
We could be energy independent still.
Price of a gallon of gasoline never went above, never got to $3 a gallon on average on national average.
We're paying, we had cheap gas forever, two bucks, a little over two bucks a gallon.
I loved it.
You know why?
Because that's money in my pocket.
I want to save as much as I can.
It's all self-inflicted by bad, bad policies.
Anyway, the Biden administration, you know, claiming over and over again, Bidenomics is working.
Americans describing their real hardship.
Let's listen to them.
How are we affording life right now?
Guess what?
Bidenomics is working.
It's to a point where people can't live.
You're not budgeting your money.
Oh, you're not doing this.
Oh, you're buying coffee.
And it's like, no, I'm literally not doing any of this thing.
That's Binomics inaction.
And the American people are beginning to feel Binomics.
Live paycheck to paycheck every week because I am trying to pay every bill that the world is throwing at me right now.
Binomics is growing the economy from the middle out and bottom up.
And the government's response to that is: oh, hey, everybody, aliens are real.
We don't give a f about aliens.
We're trying to afford a roof over our heads.
The Financial Times and the Wall Street Journal initially call my plan Bidenomics.
I'm not sure they meant it totally complimentary right at the time.
But guess what?
It's working.
I'm just really tired.
I'm like, not making me want to do the things that I want.
Prices on everything are up from food, gas, rent to 60 bucks to fill up your gas thing.
It's 140.
Instead of 99 cents for eggs, it's $3.
Rent's going from $3,000 to $5,000.
All that adds up.
And wages aren't going up fast enough.
Bidenomics.
And Bidenomics is working.
So, what did most of us have to do, myself included, with the extra $400 a month I was spending on gas?
I had to use my credit cards.
Even with three jobs now, I'm not even going to make a dent on those credit card bills.
I seriously want to know what the end game is because soon we're not going to have any money for anything anymore.
Bidenomics is working.
Why the f are we working so hard to make money for other people to use and steal our income just for us to never see it?
We have the strongest economy in the world.
You're looking at me a little skeptical, but I promise you, check it out.
I'm working just to basically pay bills, just to survive.
You know what?
That's real suffering.
And that's what so many Americans are living through right now.
All of this needless, preventable, whatever way you want to describe it.
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All right, let's get to our busy telephones here.
Let's say hi to Glenn is in Louisiana.
Hey, Glenn, how are you?
Hi, Mr. Hannity.
How are you doing?
I'm good, man.
What's going on?
How are you?
Oh, man, it's rough.
Let me explain to you a little bit my background.
I'm 71 years old.
I'm retired.
I'm a Vietnam vet.
I was the kid that Tom Cruise portrayed in Born on the 4th of July.
Every time I heard the Star Spangled Banner playing, I got up and saluted.
I believed in this country.
I loved it.
If I know what I knew now, I'd have went to Canada.
And it's ridiculous.
These politicians, all we hear is these committees, this committee, that committee investigating blah, blah, blah.
They did the same thing with Hillary and Bill Clinton.
They're doing the same thing with Dubai, and nobody goes to jail.
And it makes me so damn mad.
I get so disgusted.
If they're breaking laws, they ought to be in prison.
If you and I would have done this, what they done, we'd be under the jail.
Okay?
People can't even voice their opinions.
Freedom of speech is gone in this country.
If somebody says something and the government doesn't like it, they go to their house and they arrest them or they shoot them.
And I'm going to tell you one thing.
If they ever come to my house for any reason and they want to take my guns away and take my liberties away, they're going to have a rude awakening.
But it makes it.
Listen, listen, it's not it's not coming to that.
You live in Louisiana.
No one's coming for your guns.
Okay, let's just take a deep breath here.
Look, I will say this.
Vietnam, in many ways, was the canary in the coal mine that America no longer was willing to fight a war to win a war and getting involved in these protracted entanglements around the globe.
I understood the rationale for it at the time, but it's also the beginning of the time where we allowed wars to get politicized and not won.
This is what's been unfolding in Ukraine right before our eyes.
Europe doesn't do their part.
America now bears the financial burden of this.
and to what end what why why are we not biden's been fighting for a tie the whole way He's been tying the hands of Zelensky.
When European countries wanted to offer fighter jets, he said no.
He vetoed that.
And I'm like, stop wasting our time and money because you're not in this to win.
If you're not in it to win, then forget it.
You know, we now have this report that this guy of the Wagner group, Prashogin, is dead.
And that the initial report is his plane crashed.
Now it's a report that the plane got shot out of the sky.
And that's Vladimir Putin.
Vladimir Putin is evil.
Vladimir Putin.
Politicians.
Let me tell you this.
My representative down here in my district is John Kennedy.
When he was the Secretary of Treasury in Louisiana, I thought he did a phenomenal job.
That's why I voted for him when he went to Washington.
But it seems like as soon as these guys go to Washington, you can't get a hold to them.
They don't do what you want them to do for you.
They walk around in $1,700 suits and parade around Washington like they're gods.
They're the only people I know that they can write a check from their credit union and overdrawn and not get penalized for it.
They got their own banks, their own credit union down there, their own barbers, their own restaurants.
They give themselves their own raises as like they're going to vote against a raise, okay?
Where we can't even get a raise on our Social Security.
Now, can you explain to me what's going on with this Social Security now that they keep saying it's going to go up and we're going to get $4,500 in our bank accounts over the next week?
Well, you know, look, I don't like government either.
I have a very hard time understanding why so many people, you know, want to believe the promises, the phony promises of socialism.
I wrote a whole chapter, my last book, Live Free or Die, about socialism and its history of failure.
And, you know, you have all these lofty promises.
Everything's going to be free.
Okay.
Free education, student loan forgiveness, free health care, free retirement, guaranteed government job, guaranteed government wage, guaranteed government healthy foods.
A lot of guarantees in here.
But, you know, the only problem with socialism, it always ends the same way.
Unfulfilled promises, more poverty than when you started.
And then you have to factor in how much of your freedom did you give up in the name of false security.
I've said that many, many times.
And I'll say this, you know, but why do people want to trust the same government that said they put your social security money in a lockbox and then they raided the lockbox and they squandered it?
Same with Medicare.
They're both headed for insolvency.
Why are you going to trust the government that runs the worst school system in the industrialized world and yet we pay more than every other industrialized country?
Why are you going to trust people that said, oh, you get to keep your doctor, keep your plan, and save money?
Well, fully 40-plus percent of the population has one Obamacare exchange option and that's it.
And everybody's paying on average $2,500, on average, $200,000 more.
You know, it's insane.
It is insane.
And to trust these people, I don't trust them at all.
Thomas Paine once said, government in its best state is a necessary evil and its worst state, an intolerable one.
Less government is better government.
More freedom.
Americans, sadly, they've given up on the notion of freedom.
And that means the freedom to pursue your God-given talent.
And that means find the passion, the gifts you're born with, and provide goods and services for others.
And that to me is living a free life, not expecting the government or empowering them to take one group of people's money and give it to you.
And no, I'm sick and tired of them starting wars, politicizing wars, and then saying, oh, never mind, and pulling out of wars with their tails between their legs.
They look like jackasses like they are.
And then how much did we lose of our national treasure, our young people that go to fight these wars that they then later politicize?
Just sick of the whole thing.
And you know what?
It's all preventable.
Listen, my friend, God bless you.
I appreciate your call.
You sound like a patriot, but you're angry.
I understand fully your anger.
There's only one antidote.
Change of government.
That's it.
I don't have any other solution than that.
All right, quick break, right back.
More of your calls.
Straight ahead.
Toll-free.
It's 800-941-Sean if you want to be a part of the program.
The final hour of the Sean Hannity Show is up next.
Hang on for Sean's Conservative Solutions.
Let's get back to our busy phones.
Mark in Missouri, next Sean Hannity show.
Well, this is the day for angry calls, Sean, because I am very angry as well that President Trump, who's given up so much to serve his country and to save us from the Democrats, now has to turn himself in for arrest post-bail for simply exercising free speech and actually doing his duty as the chief law enforcement officer in the country.
He believed that there was election fraud.
He had a duty to investigate it and try to correct it.
And I don't see how he can be prosecuted.
for doing his duties.
The founders brought about the impeachment clause because they feared all the opponents would constantly go after the president.
Well, the Democrats have just moved it to after the president leaves the White House.
Same effect.
And I really think, I don't know how he can be prosecuted for doing his actual duties as president, seeing when he would be immune from that.
Well, you know, look, obviously this is now going to be litigated.
I guess America's future is prosecutors that have agendas and run on campaigns to destroy individuals and their families and their organizations are going to be rewarded.
And I will tell you that, you know, I would fully expect convictions in venues that are not friendly to President Trump.
And that would be D.C., New York, and Fulton County, Georgia.
I don't believe Donald Trump will be able to get a fair trial.
I think that he will be able, he will do much better on appeal.
But what they want is the conviction in the election year, and any appeal would take place post-election.
So if he's ultimately exonerated like Bob McDonnell was and the former Virginia governor, it won't matter at that point.
So is this a form of election interference?
Yeah, it is.
And I do think any of these trials ought to be postponed till after the election.
Put out all the facts you want, lay out the case as best you can, but don't interfere with the election because this is going to have a huge impact on this country.
And they're trying to make it impossible for him to be successful.
That's my take.
Anyway, my friend, appreciate the call.
800-941-Sean, our number.
You want to be a part of the program.
Can you imagine a society with a digital dollar, no cash?
That would mean no money for garage sales, no more tooth fairies, no more piggy banks, no more selling extra items around your house for cash.
A digital dollar would mean your life depends on the internet, electricity, and people you don't know.
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That's why so many thousands of Americans have decided to opt out of the government's plans.
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Put a portion of your savings into it.
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I'm Carol Markowitz, and I'm Mary Catherine Hamm.
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