PUBLIC BONUS: Talking About Gaza, with Eiynah Mohammed-Smith
Daniel is joined by friend-of-the-pod and regular guest/collaborator Eiynah Mohammed-Smith (Polite Conversations, Woking Up, @nicemangos (2) Eiynah (@nicemangos.bsky.social) — Bluesky ) to talk about Israel's genocide in Gaza, and in particular about some questions that have come up around IDSG's public response to it. Jack was sadly unable to attend the recording but was fully there in spirit. Our X Space on IDF / Israeli 'dystopian propaganda' with Eiynah: https://idontspeakgerman.libsyn.com/hangin-out-with-eiynah-6-dystopian-propaganda Show Notes: Please consider donating to help us make the show and stay ad-free and independent. Patrons get exclusive access to at least one full extra episode a month plus all backer-only back-episodes. Daniel's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/danielharper/posts Jack's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=4196618&fan_landing=true IDSG Twitter: https://twitter.com/idsgpod Daniel's Twitter: @danieleharper Jack's (Locked) Twitter: @_Jack_Graham_ Jack's Bluesky: @timescarcass.bsky.social Daniel's Bluesky: @danielharper.bsky.social IDSG on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/i-dont-speak-german/id1449848509?ls=1
Jack is having some health issues at the moment, so he is not going to be joining us today.
Instead, we have returning friend of the pod, Ina, from Polite Conversations and Woking Up and various other episodes we've done here.
Ina, say hello.
Hello!
How's it going?
It's going well.
I think it's going well.
You know, we're having, you know, it's a It's a Tuesday, you know, but, uh, you know, uh, fun times.
Anyway, we are here, um, to have a, well, a polite conversation really, um, about something that sort of came up, um, after one of Ina's recent podcast episodes.
And I guess the best way to get into this is to just let her sort of... I mean, we've kind of pre-discussed this, so it's going to be obvious that this is not our first time through these topics, but I think it's worth having in public.
So, Ina, why don't you kind of tell the audience what you told Jack and I the other day?
It came up after mine and Jack's last Twitter space.
I think we did a space titled Dystopian Propaganda about the types of propaganda that supporters of Israel have been putting out, the horrific memes and TikTok videos and just like carrying out very the horrific memes and TikTok videos and just like carrying out very genocidal, like even IDF soldiers themselves are uploading TikToks, you know, and sometimes they have like people in the background
And sometimes they have people in the background that are handcuffed and gagged, and it's horrific.
So yeah, we had a good Twitter space about that.
But I got some messages afterwards and I brought them up to you and that's how this conversation came up.
Right.
And in particular, I think, I mean, it's interesting to me because people asked you about content on our podcast.
It didn't bring this to either Jack or myself, at least that I know of.
I mean, maybe somebody Twitter DM'd me and I just didn't check it or didn't see it or whatever.
But I guess, I mean, it may be in the title here, but I mean, go ahead and express what people were saying to you.
So you know I don't want it to sound harsh or anything like that but I only bring it up because I got like five or six messages and basically people were asking me that since you guys since we're all friends and pretty good friends you know we talk to each other all the time and
Since you guys have made a comeback and recently started putting out content they were just kind of like oh you know what's up with our favorite anti-fascist podcast not really taking the opportunity to discuss what's happening with the fascism in Israel lately and uh Yeah, that's what it was about, and then you and I discussed it, and you expressed some things to me.
One thing that you said was interesting, and you talked about how because you follow and keep track of a bunch of Nazis, basically a lot of what you would say could be used by them.
Something like that?
Am I getting that right?
Sure, that's part of it.
I mean, I think, I mean, I mean, just to take a step back on that, you know, the reason, you know, there are a lot of, like, major news stories that we don't cover.
Like, we didn't cover the Russians' invasion of Ukraine.
We never did an episode on that.
We don't really cover, like, I don't consider I Don't Speak German to be a show about, you know, what's in the news or what's going on, even horrific things in the news.
We also have a, just because of what my expertise is, we have a pretty relentlessly U.S.
focus, and so we don't really cover a lot of, like, fascist movements in, like, Germany or Italy or, you know, Russia or Ukraine or whatever, just because it's very easy to It's very easy for me to like step on step on somebody's toes doing that.
And by like saying something that's like just childishly wrong about like internal UK politics or whatever, because I don't follow it.
And so, anything that I would say in that regard would be like a very high level and I don't think you know this very abstract high level, and not what I think people would want to come to come to this podcast for.
And so, like, honestly, it surprised me that people, like, thought Thought that that would be something we would do.
It's not that I don't have opinions about that.
It's not that I haven't been clear in terms of my social media posting.
I think Jack and I have both been very clear about how strongly we feel on this issue.
We are absolutely pro-Palestine.
We are absolutely against the atrocities being committed by the Israeli state.
To my mind, it was just like, well, I've been so obvious about this and, you know, everyone in my, you know, almost everybody, almost to a person, everyone in my orbit is very much on top of this issue on that same side that it almost felt like it would be like a I don't want to say clickbaity, but it would almost be like, you know, yes, we know obviously you're pro-Palestine.
And I didn't have any like particular expertise to add to that without going into some really unsavory bits, which we might talk about in a minute.
So yeah, that was kind of like, it just kind of never, it never occurred to me that people would expect that, would want that from me.
And maybe that's just me misunderstanding the audience, or maybe that's me misunderstanding the podcast, or misunderstanding the moment.
So I think, And this is not in any depth, people didn't really go beyond, oh, do you know what's up with them not covering it?
That's about it.
But what I think is, especially because I put out this episode titled The Silence of Left Content Creators or something like that around New Year's Eve, And I wasn't even thinking about you guys at the time.
I was more referring to the largest left-tubers and conspiracy theory type podcasts and things where, you know, they could use their platform to address this because it would fall within their wheelhouse.
And I think that people just See that this, what my general message was, maybe, maybe they thought that I'm talking about you guys as well.
I mean, I, I listened to that episode and I was, and I felt chastened, honestly.
I was like, did you?
Yeah.
I mean, I, I did.
I was, I was like, you're right.
I should, I should be talking about this more.
So yeah.
So that's what I'm going to say.
I wasn't specifically talking about you.
I had a few people in mind, but.
It's a general message that I do think that should apply broadly.
So it's not like I'm saying it doesn't apply to my friends or something like that.
I just think that rather than being like, oh, this isn't part of our brand, I feel like because this is such an unprecedented kind of New type of AI-assisted mass slaughter documented live on social media and TikTok.
I feel like every left content creator with any kind of platform, especially if they care about pushing back against fascism, and this is also very US-related, I think we should all be using our platforms to talk about it, at least a little bit, you know?
I don't mean to chasten you or yell at you or... I was just bringing it up as a friend that, oh, you know, I heard, like, from four or five people, like, what's up with that?
And then you suggested that you wanted to talk about it publicly.
Just to make clear to the audience.
No, I did not say.
I'm not here under duress.
And be questioned on air by me, Daniel Harper.
Right.
Well, and you know, I get to edit this so I can take out any stuff that makes you look bad anyway.
But no, no, I mean, I guess Jason might be like a little bit too.
I mean, I felt like, oh, you're, you know, Well, A, when the war, I hate using that term, when the ethnic cleansing genocide, when this thing started up in October, we were not back then.
We were not podcasting at that point.
And honestly, I had to take a break from social media just because it was relentless.
Um, and I was, I was dealing, I, you know, I had some health issues.
I got COVID in November.
Um, and, uh, you know, I just sort of, I just sort of had to kind of turn, turn away from some of that for a little while.
Um, which is not, not something I'm proud of, obviously, obviously the people in Gaza are suffering from it, regardless of, you know, whether I'm paying attention or not.
And the least I could do is kind of know what's going on.
Um, but I did find it like, like almost, almost unbearable.
Um, yeah, I can understand that.
And, um, the misinformation like was so pervasive.
I mean, I guess we could talk about this.
Um, you know, the info, the misinformation is so pervasive that even like More reputable sources, you know, we're kind of going back and forth on some issues.
Like the president of the United States was spreading.
Well, I mean, I'm not, I'm not even, I'm talking about like some of the like Ocent researchers talking about, well, was that, was that hospital bombed by a, by a Palestinian rocket or was it Israeli rocket, you know?
The Palestinians have the have even have the capability of doing that doesn't have to be an Israeli, you know, and there were there were arguments both ways on that, you know from people that I, you know, at least had no reason not to respect and so it's very difficult to.
come in as an outsider who doesn't have any kind of expertise on that and say, well, this is what I think happened.
No, no, no, no.
So that you're talking about something specific, I believe the Al-Akhli bombing.
Right.
So aside from that, there's a very generic thing that is happening that is very unjust.
I think anyone can comment on that, right?
Without knowing the specifics of what happened in Al-Ahly, which I believe is still contested.
It hasn't been completely debunked either way.
If you look up that particular bombing, there's too many confusing things about it and different reports, conflicting reports.
There were Israeli officials that took credit for it and then deleted it and Israel released obviously edited obviously fake audio where the Arabic dialect didn't sound natural and it was like edited together weirdly and they're like admitting really ridiculous cartoony sounding things like oh well we did this or you know like
So it's been really shady throughout because, I mean, Israel has an industry of muddying the water on the most obvious things that they're doing, right?
They will kill people right in front of us and be like, well, no, no, no, we didn't do that.
Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
And I mean, just, you touched on this a minute ago, but like getting into this particular conversation then starts, Because Nazis listen to me and because, like, it becomes very easy to say, well, even Daniel admits that Jews are doing bad things here, you know, and not where my point would be, the Israeli state, the right-wing authoritarian Israeli military state is doing horrific things and not the Jews are doing horrible things.
Right, so I think we have to be very careful to separate Zionists From the Jews, right?
or Israeli state from the Jews.
I mean, there are people who can be described as like Zion broadly, like lowercase z Zionist, I guess, who believe in like the existence of Israel, who believe that the existence of Israel is a broadly good thing, who don't support the, you know, actions of Israeli state.
Exactly, exactly.
And I think that a lot of people find themselves, at least a lot of sort of diaspora people, Jewish diaspora people, find themselves in that position very often, at least in, you know, again, I am not Again, this is me over my skis a little bit, so I'm not saying definitive things here, but you will see when well-educated people who have some connection to Israel, either by family or by religion or whatever, do have conflicted feelings about, like, you know,
Yes, it's nice that there's a homeland for Jewish people, but boy, this is a really shitty homeland for Jewish people, right?
I don't even like to use the word Zionist in that context.
I specifically blame the bloodthirsty individuals who are committing atrocities, whether at the executive level or at the ground level.
And to be clear... Right, but you have to acknowledge...
There's a movement very much in support that is not just the specific people uttering the bloodthirsty phrases or whatever.
I understand your hesitance to use the word Zionism because there are plenty of people that use the word Zionism as a cover for their anti-Semitism.
However, I think in this particular climate it has both Both been used by people who are anti-semitic, but also been more clearly separated than ever that I've seen before, because there are so many vocal anti-Zionist Jewish groups, there are so many people educating and talking about that, like, at a level that we just haven't seen before.
Yeah, no, I would I would agree with that.
I think that particularly since October 7th and then in the six months or so since then, we have seen a very broad.
Sorry, I don't mean very, very broad.
I mean, we are seeing I think you're right.
I think there is more of a differentiation.
I think there is more, you know, as the as the Israeli state is committing these atrocities and as they are more and more blatant about it, it does make it Easier for people to differentiate themselves from that, to actually shove it away.
And I think that's right.
And again, I draw a parallel between The US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq back in 2001 to 2002 2003 I grew I lived in Alabama at the time and I can tell you like almost everybody, you know in my like immediate surroundings almost everybody I knew was Very bloodthirsty in terms of, you know, wanting to go in and kill, you know, glass Afghanistan, you know?
And it was not, like, dedicated to Osama Bin Laden himself, but like, no, that entire country just needs to burn, you know?
Oh, believe me, I've heard those sentiments directed at me personally.
I'm sure you have.
And I never believed that then, right?
I was very anti, you know, invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.
I was in my 20s at the time.
So, you know, but You know, I draw a parallel between that and what's going on in Israel.
I draw a very straight line there.
The technology is different, of course, and that makes a difference, and I do want to discuss that with you, because I think that's a good place for this to go.
But you saw the same dissembling, you saw the same lies, you saw the same...
Things being done, the things that George W. Bush and the administration around him was doing to justify this war and to justify the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, you know, the Abu Ghraib scandal, et cetera, et cetera.
And the people around me who are supporting all those things, you know, I think of them very much like the Israeli citizens who are, you know, Trying to prevent aid food trucks from entering Gaza, etc.
It's not quite the same, even though there are of course parallels with all kinds of wars and rhetoric and hate and bloodthirst.
I would just say that it's important to recognize How unique and uniquely horrific this is because it is unprecedented in a lot, a lot, a lot of ways.
I have some, uh, some things that I was collecting for, uh, another episode.
Uh, so I'm just going to read, uh, just some statistics and things like just, just so that we can understand how unprecedented this is.
So, just by October 30th, this is not even a full month in, Save the Children reported that more children had died in just three weeks in Gaza than in the entire sum of conflicts around the world in the past four years.
By only October 13th, which is Only a few days in, the Palestinian Health Ministry noted that 20 entire surnames had been removed from Gaza's civil registry.
Just as a comparison, in the Vietnam War, 63 journalists were killed in about two decades.
In World War II, 69 were killed.
But currently, which is only six months into it, We've seen what, like around 110 journalists by January, and 48 media facilities have been destroyed.
Even before October 7th, you know, Israel consistently targeted journalists.
They shot her while she was clearly marked in her press gear, and then they were beating the pallbearers at her funeral.
This was before October 7th.
But they shot her while she was clearly marked in her press gear and then they were like beating the pallbearers at her funeral.
This was before October 7th.
They targeted in 2021 like the Associated Press and Al Jazeera offices.
The impunity with which they operate is completely unmatched.
The types of conflicts that we have seen in the past, this is unprecedented in comparison to those.
That's why this is, you know, brought to the ICJ.
So I would just say that while we make Those comparisons, we have to also recognize that this is a population that has been living in this apartheid, extremely oppressive situation.
This is a population that is kind of trapped on all sides.
Their daily movements have been monitored in a way that most other populations, even if oppressed, are not.
Their ingredients, their diets, their calories are counted by Israel before all of this.
So, like, shooting at them, bombing them in this incredibly dense area, it's not just like a regular war.
This is a trapped population, crowded into a concentrated area of camps, and then you're just, like, bombing them and shooting them.
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with that, of course.
Yeah, I mean, I was trying to kind of draw the parallel.
Obviously, what's going on for, I mean, you know, I hesitated.
I did not call this a war earlier.
This isn't a war.
This is very one-sided slaughter is what this is.
Yeah, and it's justified by, you know, by the activity by Hamas, you know, Hamas committed atrocities.
And then the Israeli state goes in and like said, okay, well, we're just going to do 10 times worse.
We're going to do 100 times worse.
You know, this does feel like an elimination.
This is an attempt at elimination.
Whether you know by one by one means or another and that's I mean it's I mean it's just it's horrifying it's just it's horrifying for me to even sit here and try to think about a response to it because I feel absolutely powerless to do anything except except to say those words out loud over and over again.
And Abu Ghraib, Abu Ghraib was such a scandal when those photos were leaked, right?
Right.
No, absolutely.
I mean, it was... These types of photos are leaked like hundreds per hour now.
Right.
I mean, A, the technology makes things different.
And B, I mean, the Abu Ghraib photos were a scandal.
But again, there were plenty of people who were like, no, you know, Kill them all.
It's fine.
These are terrorists.
They just had a bad night.
Whatever.
Again, I'm not trying to disagree with you on the unique nature of this conflict or of Israel's actions here.
The thing that I mean, the thing that I want to come back to something that you mentioned earlier is that like this didn't start on October 7th.
This has been like a decades long occupation and an apartheid system that has been that has left these people in like the absolute most destitute situation of near starvation.
And that's just been the lifestyle of people in Gaza and in the West Bank to a lesser extent.
But I mean, it is just it is it is this like overt military Occupation of these people.
And it's arguably the worst human rights abuse since World War II.
There's just no comparison to anything else.
For me, trying to draw the broad parallels is to kind of give you a sense of where I'm thinking about it and where I'm and how I understand these things, as opposed to trying to draw some kind of moral or some logistical equivalence.
It's just trying to kind of get it straight as to how I think about these matters and how I think about the people.
I think about the Israelis committing atrocities now and the sort of the broad social support for it in the same way that I think about the Americans supporting atrocities during the Iraq and Afghani wars.
Well, yeah, I mean, it's the Americans also supporting this.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
You know, and plenty of I mean, ironically, it's like, you know, Americans, I think in polling, certainly Democrats and independents are very sort of They have turned on Biden to a great sense here.
Yes, I don't think it's the American people.
It's the American people in power.
It's the American military industrial complex, the American security state.
I mean, on one of my live streams that I did for my Patreon, we got to talking about this a little bit.
I did release that audio for the Patreon listeners, so hopefully people have heard that.
And we did start talking about this and you know it is just like I feel like one of the like mental hurdles that people get into is thinking about like.
Like, Israel in the United States has, like, discrete things, right?
It's like, there is this thing called Germany, there is a thing called the United Kingdom, and it has, like, needs and wants.
And to think of, like, the health of that thing as in some way indicative of the health and the well-being of the people within it.
And it is just this poison of nationalism.
It is this poison of, you know, thinking on the state level, as opposed to thinking on the, you know, The population level on the on what are the what are the lives of the actual people, you know, what what's really being harmed here?
And I think that that, you know.
When we say, you know, the US is doing this or Israel is doing that, I mean, I know that, like, I love what we think.
Well, we're talking about policymakers.
We're talking about like sort of we're looking at it on that level, but it is it does get very, very dangerous.
Thinking about these matters without considering again those those those very real human values lower down and that's that's not on point to anything that you're pointing out it's just something that I think about a lot when I start thinking about like why it's difficult to talk about these issues is that is Alienating?
Alienating how?
you start talking geopolitics, whenever you start talking like geostrategy, everything gets simplified into this, like, you know, the great bear Russia and the eagle United States, et cetera.
And it's just, I always find it very, very alienating.
So yeah, sorry, that's like kind of off topic, but something that I did just want to kind of throw in.
Alienating how?
You feel like you can't connect?
I feel like it becomes, it's like, because you're thinking about issues in a, I guess it's abstracted is more the term that I'm thinking of, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's It's alienating to me because suddenly I'm not thinking about kind of Yes, I feel like that was more possible in wars in the past, right?
brand chess game that's being played between these powers, moving things on a board sort of thing.
Yes.
I feel like that was more possible in wars in the past, right?
But certainly not, or even wars that don't get coverage now.
now but this particular slaughter it is live streamed 24 7 it's hard to think of it as abstract you know when you're seeing their pain in such high def constantly and um it's it's horrific in in a way that i i feel like we just haven't seen yet and this may be the new norm i don't know i hope not
But this particular slaughter, it is live streamed 24/7.
but like uh you know tech and murder is a very horrific combination and the reports coming out of israel using all kinds of ai to generate human targets firstly and then generate like building targets and then they're saying that they use this ai system called where's daddy to to
Basically, anyone that they suspected of being even a low-level Hamas fighter or member And we all know what their bar for considering someone Hamas is.
It's basically a fighting age male.
There's not really any proof or anything like that.
So this where's daddy system was used to target these whatever Hamas targets.
when they're at home with their families because it's just easier to just bring down the house around their whole family and that completely tracks with reports of like entire family surnames being removed from the civil registry right like this when so many families were sheltering together they just murder them all in one with one press of a button
It's like a new level of industrialized, mechanized killing.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I mean, just I think the most heartbreaking, you know, the most heartbreaking acronym or the most phrase that I've heard coming from this has been the Wounded Child No Surviving Family Cases.
Yes.
Where, you know, there's a four-year-old who is in a hospital of a gunshot wound from shrapnel or whatever.
The entire rest of the family is just dead, you know?
And the idea that that happens is awful.
The idea that it happens often enough that it has its own like...
Clever acronym?
That's just, I mean, it's absurd.
We live in the very darkest timeline.
I laugh at it because it's just, it's just like, I don't think this is funny at all.
I'm just, I'm trying to find like...
You know, I use the word absurd to describe it.
I mean, the idea that, you know, soldiers are soldiers, you know, God, I hate it.
Anyway, the idea that like young Israeli soldiers are going into the homes of people they've massacred and are like playing with the like the frilly lingerie.
Yes.
Repeatedly.
Over and over and over again.
This is something out of a Paul Verhoeven script.
This seems like it should be in Starship Troopers or Robocop or something.
It's just so over the top.
It's cartoonishly evil.
Right.
Right.
It is.
And it's just like, look, you saw, again, you've seen, this is what people do in war.
This is what young men have done in war.
There are stories about this from Afghanistan and Iraq.
There are stories about this from Vietnam.
But now we have TikTok for it.
Right.
- But now we have TikTok for it. - But now we have TikTok for it, right.
And now we have Twitter spaces or we have the videos, we have all this stuff.
Um, you know, and, and I think, I mean, it is, I mean, it is legitimately fascinating.
Um, and this might be, you know, something that I can speak to a little bit is that, you know, I have spent a lot of time studying, um, you know, certainly English language propaganda in terms of like far right Propaganda, obviously, in terms of trying to understand how Nazis spread their ideas and how these things get promulgated into the mainstream, something that I'm obviously very, very interested in.
And you do see a lot of the... I mean, the actual techniques are different because they're not Pushing ideology as much, but the idea of the dehumanization of the Palestinian people using the frilly dresses and stuff.
Are you calling these women the sluts because they have frilly lingerie?
In their own homes?
It's just a humiliation ritual.
It's just that.
Yes, that's exactly what it is.
The Pollywood stuff, you know, the idea that like, oh, these poor little Palestinians, that's just a, it's just a stage.
They're just faking it just because, you know, and that's exactly what the Nazis said about the Jews in the, in the 1940s, in the 1930s and 1940s.
And that's exactly what like the neo-Nazis that I follow around, you know, say about, say about Jews today.
Like it's, it's the exact, you know, it's the exact same pattern, you know?
I mean, this is, this is, I mean, it's just, it's atrocious.
It's awful.
It's hard for me to even describe how awful I find this.
What's especially atrocious is that we've seen this all before, we've condemned it, we've said never again and now it's happening and so many people are just willing to turn away, willing to
Say the opposite of what is plainly happening before their eyes, you know And then when they like go out of their way to condemn Russia for using food as a weapon of war for grabbing land for and then turn around and just simply Excuse Israel for doing the same thing.
Oh, we're we're concerned if it's if it's actually happening that's concerning but that's like it they're like handing them weapons and Yeah, I mean, it's like big ol' Uncle Joe, he's just wagging his finger in Netanyahu while the money just continues to flow in from the back end, you know?
Yes!
I live in a swing state.
I did not even vote in the primary.
I mean, Joe Biden was going to win the primary regardless.
I very well may not vote.
Obviously I'm not going to vote for Trump, but I'm sorry.
It's just lesser evil and all that, but this is a pretty bad lesser evil in my opinion.
Yeah.
I mean, look, for the first time I can understand that position.
I have never really been...
Too thrilled about that position because I'm like, no, no, no, you can't let the right win.
But now I'm like in this in this situation, even though if I were American, I would probably very, very, very reluctantly vote for Biden.
I cannot for a second.
Blame anyone for not wanting to to vote for someone like that.
Yeah, it's well known.
I live in Michigan.
Dearborn, Michigan has the largest per capita Arab population in the United States.
He's lost Michigan.
Like Dearborn, what's going to vote for him by like nine to one?
And there's just, there's just, I mean, he is, there's just, there's just no, you know, If you're going to lose, we're going to get four more years of Trump based on this, Biden.
Like, thanks a lot, buddy.
I appreciate that.
It's just, I mean, again, not that that's the thing we should be focusing on or anything, but it is, it is just like, it's just like, it's such an unforced error.
It's just like, how can you fuck up this badly?
And it is just like, You know, it is just the geopolitics of it.
It is like, well, we support Israel because we need it for, you know, various geostrategic reasons.
And therefore, whatever they're doing is like, you know, and we'll say things.
To what extent?
I mean, America is really becoming ridiculous now in that because it's it doesn't seem to be benefiting from doing this for Israel.
I feel like it's making the entire world a lot less safe with the dismantling of the international laws.
They're just willing to send this message to all the worst people in the world that it doesn't matter.
It does not matter what you do.
If Israel is not going to abide by international humanitarian law, then why should someone awful in another country be like, well, why should I?
And they don't seem to be thinking that far ahead.
The only thing I can imagine is they're just thinking like, well, this is all going to blow over in a year or two anyway, and everybody's going to forget.
Which, you know.
I don't know.
Israel is bombing other countries now.
Absolutely.
I mean, the U.S.
just does, the U.S.
bombs who it wants to bomb, and Israel gets special dispensation because of the special working relationship, et cetera, et cetera.
Um, it's just, you know, it's just, you know, the, the U S and Israel can do whatever they want and everybody else just has to just has to suck on it.
That's just, I mean, that's just been U S foreign policy for the last 50 years.
Like you can only get by with that for so long before people really, uh, start losing their shit.
And everyone that the U.S.
doesn't like is a terrorist, and whoever the U.S.
does like is a good child of light.
Do you think that I answered the questions that the people who brought to you, do you think we've answered that sufficiently?
Or do you think there's more that we should go on to?
I mean, as I told you, it was a very vague and superficial, like, level question.
I don't want to drag other people.
Sure, yeah.
I just got, after our space, I feel like people were like, huh, so they're doing a space, Jack is doing a space on this, so how come, you know, and then why aren't they talking about it on their platform?
So I guess you are talking about it now on your platform, and for that, I think, you know, that's great.
And it's been clear to me that, you know, it's not like you're trying to deny what's happening or anything like that.
So I guess, yeah, you've answered that question.
But I guess your response was that you felt it didn't work with your brand or That sounds really vile, right?
To say, well, the brand of the podcast is not, it's like, it's just not, it's just not what we cover.
I think it's kind of more of whatever, you know?
And if I were going to, again, there are lots of news stories.
We don't, we don't, we're not like a topical news podcast.
If we were a topical news podcast, that would be a very different thing.
I think the, where I would land on that is like when I'm prepping an I Don't Speak German episode, It's like I need a structure.
I need like a beginning, middle and end in order to like sort of have a, I mean, this is just a conversation.
So this, I don't, I didn't prep this at all, except just, you know, Aina and I chatted the other day.
But when I'm prepping it, I'm like, well, I can't, you know, we can talk about Gaza, we could talk about this, but I need an angle, I need an end, I need like a way to talk about it that makes sense for what I think an I Don't Speak German episode should be.
And that's a tougher nut to crack in terms of, I mean, I could have brought on a guest who had expertise in it, you know, I could have brought on someone, I could have found a Palestinian activist.
I mean, there are certainly plenty of them in And maybe that, maybe that was the thing to do.
Maybe that would have been just the way to do it is to just bring on an expert, you know, pay them for their time and say, yeah, let's talk about what's going on here.
And, you know, to, to spread it that way or to, to have to pay your podcast guests.
I mean, I would feel like if I'm taking someone with real expertise away from doing other more important work than talking to me, I would try to at least give them some kind of honorarium for it, particularly since I do make money off of the Patreon, et cetera, et cetera.
I would consider that important just for my own sense of fairness there.
Especially if I was bringing them on specifically because I didn't have like a particular bit of expertise and didn't have like a way of talking about it.
I feel like maybe you're overthinking it because there's lots of ways to talk about it.
Like firstly, you know, we both cover like the IDW sphere and the heterodox swamp.
There's plenty of takes to talk about in that just Barry Weiss alone has been horrifying.
Well, you've been doing a great job on Sam Harris.
I didn't want to step on those toes either.
Right.
I'll take care of the Harris part.
Yeah.
Barry Weiss has done a multi-part series where it's just listening to the voices of Israel and the soldiers and how they suffer in this conflict.
It's like, Jesus Christ, Barry.
Yeah, it's disgusting.
And it's just the complete lack of balance, not even an attempt to say – and yes, of course we know there are atrocities.
It's just like, no, no, we don't even talk about that.
It's just look at how much the Israeli people are suffering.
Look at the people.
Look at this.
And we don't look at the rest of it because the rest of it is just – I think this is something I was trying to get at earlier.
It is like we don't think about – in our polite liberal democracies, we don't think about the actions of the state as being violent in the same way that we think about other types of violence.
So when Hamas fighters come and massacre a bunch of people, well, that's a terrorist attack because those people, they're a regular fighting force.
Those are just people committing atrocities.
But when the Israeli forces go and start carpet bombing Gaza, Well that's just the need, that's the rational response, that's the response.
Or snipering 5 year olds to the head.
That is just, maybe that one sniper, he was having a bad day, maybe that guy needs to be, you know, but like...
The actions of the state, well, of course, Israel has to protect itself, you know?
And this is the same logic.
This is the same logic that we see in, you know, and I mean, the one that I am, one that's my particular hobby horse is the U.S.
prison system.
You know, it's like, well, the U.S.
prison system isn't committing violence.
These people commit crimes.
And so they just, they need to, they need to be locked up.
They need to be, you know, police just need to have these powers.
And it's just like, there's this blindness to that.
And I think that it just comes from like seeing the state is like this, It's official.
It's official, right?
This is the thing that we're allowed to do, right?
And so you can never question that system.
You can only question the activities of individuals within it, right?
And again, I think that connects to, this didn't start on October 7th.
This started 70 years ago.
The process of depopulation, the process of ethnic cleansing started with the creation of Israel in 1948.
It is a straight line from one to the other.
And you're talking about prison, right?
Right.
Israel is basically the only country that uses military law for minors, to prosecute minors.
Yeah, I believe it.
There's no convictions.
There's no proof.
I mean not no convictions.
There's no like
real charges other than like stone throwing a lot of times and for that people get like decades and then there's like intentional medical neglect you're hearing those reports from the doctors israeli doctors currently talking about just how vile the conditions in those detainment camps are where prisoners who have not been convicted of anything who have not gone through trial
are just kept and tortured.
They're handcuffed and they're having to squat handcuffed for weeks in diapers.
They're being fed through straws and they're having amputations as a result of handcuff injuries and just being in that one position.
It's like very common for them to have amputations just because of the mistreatment.
Like, how is this country recognized as not only a democracy, but the only democracy in the Middle East?
I mean, this has been what's been so disorienting for me, and I have brought this up a few times, is that growing up in Saudi Arabia, you think, especially as someone who's critical of it, You think, wow, this is a very oppressive country.
And Jesus, it can't get worse than this.
Afghanistan, Iran, sure, but like that is the pinnacle of awfulness.
But then when you hear the levels of just horrendous control in Israel, it goes beyond that.
Like Saudi Arabia was oppressive as fuck.
There was literal morality police on the streets.
But there was no like, only a certain race can walk on the street, you know what I mean?
There was gender segregation, certainly.
There was also segregation, generally.
It wasn't like an official segregation, but like they keep the Saudi population away from the Non-Saudi population, so like we have different schools.
Basically the mentality was we don't want our pure Saudi population infected with these like Western ideas or whatever.
So like the expats in Saudi Arabia had compounds, different schools, life was pretty normal within the compounds.
Because Saudi law did not apply in there.
There was no morality police.
We had like swimming pools where we would just swim like in regular swimsuits and not like a giant religious swimsuit.
So like it was different from life outside the walls of the compound.
So that is a kind of segregation.
These things existed.
The mistreatment of migrants existed.
But the way that Palestinians are mistreated, like they control whether they can fish, they control whether they can collect rainwater, they control how many calories are available per Palestinian, they control if they can have chocolate or cilantro.
None of this existed.
You know what I'm saying?
Sorry, I was laughing at the cilantro.
It's like, you know.
Yeah, it's so arbitrary.
It's so random.
Right.
Yeah.
The bullshit artists, you know, the Sam Harris's, the Barry Weiss's, you know, are going to say, well, you know, if the Palestinians wanted those things, they could just like, you know, they're responsible for building it themselves.
I guess it's more like a Ben Shapiro.
They're not getting building permits or materials.
They don't get the materials.
Like, You know, the old Ben Shapiro line, it's like, you know, Arabs like to live in sewage or whatever it was.
It's like, well, the reason that there's sewage in the streets in Gaza is not because the Gazans just like that.
It's because there's no infrastructure and because too many people are living in poverty conditions in this horrifying police state, in this open air prison.
Yeah, of course there's horrible living conditions.
And this is on Israel to solve this problem.
Yeah.
If you are surrounding them and trapping them in this area, then that is on you.
Don't say there's no occupation when you're literally controlling where they go, when they go, what they eat, how they eat, what they build, what they wear.
I mean, they have streets where doors are welded shut.
Their front doors are welded shut because they are not allowed to exit their houses on that side because that street is just for Jewish people.
Yeah.
I mean, again, to talk about this, it's cartoonishly bad.
It's cartoonishly evil, you know?
And it is exactly the activities of a settler colonial state in the 21st century with the technology to do those sorts of things.
I mean, it's just, yeah, I mean, it's vile.
It's vile stuff.
And I don't know.
I just don't have another response to that.
It's just, it's horrifying.
And the inversion, the inversion of the narrative, how actually it's the Palestinians that are genocidal.
How pointing out any war crime that Israel does is anti-Semitism.
Or like Palestinian liberation organizations like from the river to the sea.
Well, that's genocidal because it implies that the Jewish people will not have their own independent state for themselves.
And so like the destruction of the state, of the governing apparatus, is a genocide against the jewish people which is again absolutely you know wrong and the rhetorical trick that all these people pull is like well if you want if you want the palestinians and the jews if you want that's not even necessarily what river to the sea means just they're just people are just saying palestinian palestine will be free it's
It doesn't mean destroy the governing apparatus even necessarily.
Right, right.
I mean, you know, kind of my thought is like what They're arguing or what what sort of behind that is saying that like, well, look, the Israel is just for Jews that only Jews get to be citizens here only and they get special privileges and to remove those special privileges would effectively be to change Israel as a
As a one ethnicity state, it would change that, and therefore it is like a destruction of the Jews over again, even if it harms no actual individual Jewish person, right?
And I mean, you know, like, Again, I'm not I'm not well enough educated on the internal dynamics of the Israeli, you know, Constitution or whatever to be able to comment intelligently on like what exactly the laws would have to change in order to like, but it is it's just like there's just no answer to this.
It doesn't involve like the Palestinians had to be given.
Full rights in Israel.
That's just the bottom line.
If you want long lasting peace, it's so obvious.
That is the basic step that needs to be taken.
How do you treat humans like animals for decades and then expect them to never be radicalized or filled with rage?
Right.
And I mean, in the answer to that as well, you know, if you starve them out long enough, they're just not going to be there anymore.
Like that's, that's the answer, you know?
And I, I mean, it's, it's, I mean, it's hard to say, I guess I'm more familiar with genocidal rhetoric than like most people in the world.
And like, it's just, it's just open, it's just openly genocidal rhetoric, you know?
They had a conference, they had a resettlement There was a conference where they're taking back Gaza and it was attended by one, I think it was one third, roughly, of the Knesset.
So, like, one third of their official government, like, attended this ethnic cleansing conference.
You can't even say some extremists did it, like, out in the boonies where nobody knew.
No, government members were participating.
Absolutely.
In the Ethnic Cleansing Conference, like, the genocidal rhetoric is coming from every single level of government, of military official, down to the small lower-level soldiers, to the high-level commanders, the Prime Minister, the President, Ben Gavir, Smatrik, all of them.
Yeah, no, I mean, absolutely.
I mean, it is, it is just coming.
It is coming from every level.
It's coming from the top.
It is coming from the middle.
It's coming from the bottom.
And it is, I mean, it is just, it is, you know, the, you know, the ideology is not unique to Israel.
The eliminationist rhetoric is certainly not unique to Israel.
Of course not.
Just right now, right now, the people in charge Well, I wouldn't say that right now the people who are in charge are eliminationists.
And my country is doing everything possible to aid them in that goal.
I wouldn't say that right now the people who are in charge are eliminationists.
I feel like to implement that kind of project where you're trying to keep this pure ethno state, to implement issues.
It's not just Netanyahu's far-right government, right?
It's across the political spectrum that it is an eliminationist, genocidal ideology.
There are liberal settlers.
I didn't mean that in a partisan sense.
I meant that in a more broadly geopolitical sense.
So it's not like, oh, if you just vote in another guy as Prime Minister of Israel, then suddenly this is going to change.
Because obviously it's not going to change.
Netanyahu is particularly bad, but in the same way that US border policies didn't really change when Joe Biden came into office.
It's like, well, we'll put softer pillows in the kitty cages and then that'll be fine.
I don't know how to solve it.
If I knew how to solve it, then believe me, I would say something.
Yeah, of course.
Like, I'm not expecting for us to solve it or you to solve it.
Right, right.
Yeah, and I know you're not.
I mean, it's just like, it's like, oh, what are the most intractable things in the world?
You know, let's try to let's try to hash this out between us.
No, like it's not.
It's like Eric Weinstein saying, well, long form podcasting will save civilization.
No, I'm, I'm, I'm wearing a suit right now because I am, I am a, I'm a leader in waiting.
I am here to take control when.
I am an adult in the room.
When the children stop bickering, I will come in and solve this.
What a fucking douchebag.
Anyway, we're not going to talk about Eric Weinstein today.
We easily could because he's had some takes, but yeah.
I haven't even looked in on Brett.
I haven't.
I mean, I know he said some shit, but I have not really paid too much attention to Brett in the last couple of years, and I'm sure he's had some dizzies on this as well.
Last I saw was that Dave Rubin was spending a day with the IDF and walking around some hip area talking about how there's no, like, do you see any apartheid here?
No, I don't.
Look at this nice restaurant!
And I mean, it's all of them, right?
Like Jerry Coyne wrote about how, he doesn't mean to sound harsh, but I don't think that people are starving as bad as they're making it out to be, or something probably even more cruel than the way that I'm phrasing it, but something along those lines.
We all know what Sam Harris has been putting out, and it is getting more and more genocidal as the time goes on.
And I am currently working on the next Woken Up, but I've had to stop like a few times because I feel myself like physically needing to throw up sometimes when I'm trying to write that, you know?
Because for me, I'm not Palestinian, I'm not even Arab, I'm South Asian, but I am of Muslim background and their anti-Muslim rhetoric, while there is a specific genocide happening Which uses anti-Muslim tropes to dehumanize Palestinians.
It just feels like if there was a specific genocide going on that targeted me and my family, these people would be cheering it on in the same exact way.
So it's very personal to me.
There is a genocide going on.
It's happening to people that look like me, that come from a similar background as me, and I'm hearing what all these people are saying.
Like, these are the people that talk about how Islamophobia is not real and how we shouldn't let, you know, Muslims weaponize that word because then the conservatives, or this is what they used to say, conservatives will try to use that to prevent any criticism of Islam from happening.
And you know, I have seen that, sure.
Conservatives of all kinds will try to protect their ideologies.
So that's no surprise.
And I have opposed it.
But when it comes to anti-Semitism, all these same people are willing to go to the length where any criticism of Israel is immediately deemed anti-Semitism.
And they just don't care.
Sam Harris, who will say things like the Jewish people partly brought the Holocaust on themselves.
Sam Harris, who will defend Stefan Molyneux and remove criticism of him from his podcast.
He's willing to say that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic right now.
Right.
And anyone coming out in support of Palestine is coming out in support of Hamas.
Like, that is an insane, insane conflation to make in full public view.
Well, and that kind of rhetoric, I mean, you know, the neo-Nazis also benefit from that kind of rhetoric.
This is exactly what they want, is for Hamas and the Palestinians to be seen as one and the same, and for the Jews in Israel to be seen as one and the same, because it benefits their political project.
And they're riding high on it.
I mean, I thought about making an episode about this, about going into this, how the rhetoric works, but I just can't do that right now.
It's just not the time for that.
That's another reason why when I was talking about trying to prep an episode, like, oh, well, we could talk about how the rhetoric is being used.
It's just, A, it's really vile.
It's really vile even by Nazi standards, but it's just impossible to talk about and not lean into certain... I don't know.
It's just not the moment.
The conflict has to reach another point that's like the slaughter has to stop first before we can really like talk about that i think yeah and it's important to center palestinians in these conversations right now absolutely absolutely not nazis but yeah right so So yeah, I think we're definitely on the same page.
I can understand your hesitance, but I feel like maybe you overthought it at some point.
I feel like you could just casually talk about what you see happening.
I mean, not casually, because it's pretty horrific.
Without too much concern about, is this the way to frame it?
Is this the right level of expertise?
I think that's the trap that many people want people to get bogged into, that I'm not an expert on the Middle East.
I don't know everything, where the atrocities are so clear.
And you can see that tone change since the Six Western aid workers were killed, right?
I think over, by December, I think it was reported that over 300 health workers were killed.
Which I believe exceeds all countries in conflict combined in any year since 2016.
It's just unprecedented in so many ways.
The targeting of health workers, the targeting of medical workers, the targeting of reporters.
I mean, the bombing of hospitals.
The direct, yes.
I mean, I, sorry, one of the things that like, As you know, I spent two months out of work.
I had surgery, and then I was pretty bed-bound for at least a month.
And the first thing that I thought of when I was thinking about the lack of running water in Gaza and then these horrifying, atrocious conditions was, even absent all the conflict, even absent all the bombing and all of the everything, Had I not had running water in my home when I was convalescing, my wound would have gotten infected.
I would have suffered.
I could very easily have died from even a relatively minor wound.
Yeah.
That surgical one that had to heal just without running water, like no, no other, no other thing going on without running water and without clean bandages and without like painkillers, et cetera, um, very easily could have died.
And that, I mean, I'm sorry that like, again, it's not about me, but that really, that really brings it home to me in like a very visceral way.
Um, It's just thinking about, again, not that abstract, not the numbers, but just what does it mean to be injured?
What does it mean to need hospital services and not have running water?
And the idea that, like, they justify this by, you know, well, we warned him first.
We did, we did a, we did a, we did a rooftop and we told him to get out in 20 minutes.
And so like, yeah.
Can you imagine people who are bed bound?
Yes.
I mean, I mean, you know, your pal in mind, Sam Harris is like, this is, this is a, this is a benign move, you know, like no other military spends so much of its energy trying to, um, Trying to protect the lives of innocents, you know, etc.
Yeah, you give people 20 minutes to get out of a fucking hospital, and then you say, well, they're bad if they were still there.
It's absurd.
It's absurd.
Well, also, the people who did get out and followed their instructions and where they went, where they were directed to- And then they bombed there!
Then they bombed there!
I mean, again, cartoonishly evil.
It just feels like, you know, it's awful.
And the fact that anybody is, like, openly, like, defending this, and the fact that, like, reasonable centrists, you know, like, we speak quietly, and we talk in very impure hushed tones about this, and how horrible, and this is supposed to be, like, the way we approach this.
It's supposed to be, like, well, we just, there's a conflict, and we just have to, you know, maintain the rights of Israel.
We have to maintain There has to be like safety for Israeli citizens, but boy, the bombing is just, it's just a lot of bombing.
But like, what is the moral import of that?
It's like, just shut the fuck up, Sam Harris.
It's just like, you know, it's not just Sam, but he's the bad one.
He's just, he's like the most, the most overt about it.
Yeah.
Maybe like Douglas Murray has been worse, but like there he's in a pod, honestly.
Yeah, Douglas Murray is using terrorist justifications, like literally what Obama, not Obama, please edit that out.
Obama Bin Laden, yep.
That's what I was going to say!
- Literally. - Obama Bin Laden, yep. - That's what I was gonna say.
Literally, literally what Osama Bin Laden and the London 7-7 bombers said as their reasoning, right?
Well, why did these people not overthrow their governments?
Their fair game for their government's actions.
You can target anyone.
Yeah, no, that's explicit justification from Douglas Murray and others.
It's like, well, you know, if they didn't want this to happen, they should have overturned Hamas.
It's like, okay, well, the next time the British government does something horrifying, then you, Douglas Murray, are- Like right now!
Complicit in that.
Exactly, exactly, you know?
Um, this, it's just, it's might makes right, you know?
I mean, it just, it's that same logic.
It's that same, like, well, we do this because we are strong and you accept it because you are weak, you know?
And, you know, that's, that's the whole answer.
It's like, well, by that logic, the activities of Hamas on October 7th, those atrocities were justified.
By that logic.
By that same logic, exactly.
I don't agree with that logic.
I'm arguing against it.
But by that same logic, the massacre of civilians at a rave, absolutely justified.
Because these are Israeli citizens.
These are Jews.
And so it just comes down to who has the biggest gun and who has the biggest propaganda ministry.
That's all it is.
And never mind, Douglas will never care or mention that majority of the population is under 18 and we're not allowed to we're not around to vote Hamas in so like they literally did not vote for that government and yet you're blaming them for not overthrowing it exactly exactly and like we could go around all day on this but
Yeah, I just wanted to say that we're definitely on the same page, and I hope you did not feel too chastened by me again.
Not at all, not at all.
Sorry, that might be a little bit of an aggressive word, but I mean, you know, all I was saying was I listened to that and I thought like, yeah, I, you know, I felt like a little bit, okay, yeah, you're right.
A lot of lefty content creators did not discuss this in detail on their platforms, and I could definitely see myself being one of those.
Yeah, I wasn't, to be clear again, I wasn't talking about you, but you can see why Someone would think that it's important for many, if not most, lefty content creators who care about this kind of stuff to use their platforms to just kind of speak about it in any way that they can.
No, and I agree with that.
And certainly, I mean, I will, I guess the one thing I would say is, you know, I don't know who reached out to you.
I don't know if they were like Patreon supporters of ours or, you know, kind of what the, you know, kind of what the dynamic there was.
But certainly, if you think I'm not covering something and you think that I should be, please reach out.
Like, you can email me, you can Twitter DM me, you can, you know, you can at me, you can do, like, I'm not hard to find.
And sometimes I don't think it was like, I think it's just like, yeah, I mean, I just, um, you know, the fact that several people said something to you was sort of a surprise to me because if you said, well, that was a surprise to me too.
And that's what got me thinking about it because otherwise I probably wouldn't have had this conversation with you.
But then I was like, well, maybe I should bring it up because.
Like, after the first couple of messages, okay, I was like, oh, maybe I don't need to say anything.
But then I got a few more, and I was like, oh, maybe I should say something.
So, I don't think it was like a, hmm, I don't like Daniel kind of thing.
It was more of a, hey, do you know what's going on?
Because I'm just surprised, that's all.
Yeah, no, and I understand that.
Again, I'm not complaining at all.
I'm not like arguing at all.
I was just like, you know, I feel like I'm a pretty approachable guy.
And if you think I'm not covering something I should, then, you know, let me know.
That's kind of all I was trying to say just to the audience while we're still on the air.
Yeah, so it was not a criticism of anybody in particular.
It just surprised me that you got several messages and I didn't get any and Jack didn't get any.
It's only because it was after our- After the Twitter space, right, yeah.
And I think you and I had a moment in that space where you were like, well, no, this kind of thing happens in war.
And I was like, well, no, this is more than the usual.
And I feel like maybe it was perceived as a bit of a- Oh, like it was a little bit of a cop out on my part?
Yeah, I could see that.
Not my word.
No, no, no, no.
I mean, yeah, sure.
I mean, I'm trying to be self-critical.
I mean, you say I overthink the podcast and a lot of times I'm overthinking it because I'm trying to be, I'm trying to understand how, I'm trying to be self-critical of it.
And I'm trying to kind of understand what the right way to say things is and what the right way to do things is sometimes.
And you're right that I can probably overthink that sometimes so that we don't produce episodes because I'm spending more time than is necessary planning it.
I do the same.
So believe me, I spend a lot of time thinking, fuck, how can I condense all this garbage from Sam Harris into one episode?
Because I feel like there's just always so much to say.
You know, I try to think about it, and I don't speak German again, and this is like a beginning, middle, and end, and it's like the five-paragraph paper.
That's just how I organize it, right?
It's like, okay, there's an intro, there are like three points of evidence, or three things we're going to talk about, and then an outro where we sum everything up you know that's like you know the way you learn to write papers in the first grade or whatever but like that is that is I think that's a really solid starting point for a podcast episode I know that also because Jack and I do it together he's always going to come in with other things from left field he's going to come in with his responses he's going to come in and you know add context or add history or whatever
and so like it it helps for me to just have like a skeleton and then he and I bounce it off of each other for for an hour and a half so yeah I yeah yeah sorry this is this is just talking shop at this point but yeah no I'll be I'll be more mindful of that in the future so
Listen, we should end by congratulating each other for being able to have this amazingly difficult... On such a difficult topic, Aina, I really appreciate you just being willing to have the conversation, have it in public.
It's a real free speech issue.
You're clearly engaging in the most high level of thought, and that's what I appreciate about you, Aina.
Yeah, and you know what?
I really appreciate that we can have these differing viewpoints and still speak to each other respectfully, you know?
I don't know many other people that can speak as well as us on such differing viewpoints and, you know, we are really so intellectually honest and I really have to congratulate us on being this excellent and rational.
We're definitely going to have to have a dinner party again sometime, Ina, just to sit down and just clear the air and have some more of these great conversations, you know?
You know how different we are, like, in our politics?
It's truly amazing that two people from the left and the left And the more left can really get together and have these conversations, really.
The whole, the whole range of political opinions get expressed from the left to the far left.
