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Feb. 19, 2024 - I Don't Speak German
01:10:20
124: The Collapse of the National Justice Party
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And finally, our special return guest.
And I might add, he's back from just a brief hiatus from the show.
The word on the street is that his favorite rock band is a toss-up between Three Days Grace and Three Doors Down.
His favorite nursery rhyme is Three Blind Mice.
And of course, his favorite sitcom is Three's Company.
Smasher, a.k.a.
Michael McEvitt, welcome back to Full House, brother.
Sorry, I had to do it!
That Mike Enoch, what a wag.
What a card.
What a joker.
That was not Mike Enoch.
That was Coach Fenstock.
Fuck.
Who is the... no, no, it's cool.
This is I Don't Speak German.
Here we talk about the far right, their fellow travellers, and what they say to each other when they think we're not listening.
The show is hosted by Daniel Harper and me, Jack Graham.
We're both he-him.
Be aware, we cover difficult, sometimes nasty subject matter, so content warnings always apply.
Hello again, hello again, hello again, everybody. - Definitely.
Guess what?
You need to strap on your listening ears and abandon all hope for the human species in general, or of ever feeling good again about anything, because... I don't speak German is back!
Hooray!
Hooray!
After a hiatus for, like, health reasons, and... I don't know.
I feel bad.
It's been, like, kinda two years since we've really been at this full-time, and a lot of terrible shit has happened in the interim, and I can't take personal responsibility for any of that, but it certainly... I certainly could've... I think you and I could've helped people, like, absorb the news a little bit more, had we been up to recording, so...
We could have stopped it all from happening.
If only we'd bothered.
If only we'd bothered.
That was our fault, really.
When Donald Trump is re-elected in November, that's going to be on us.
It's on us, frankly.
That's what's going to happen.
So yeah, straight back into it, I think, episode 124.
This is the first time Daniel and I have done an episode together, like a serious proper episode together, in a year, I think, or just over a year.
It's a little over a year, yeah.
The last one was, I think, the Steven Crowder one?
It was, yes.
Yeah.
And the last sort of official mainline episode was the one that I did where I was very lucky to have Teddy Wilson on as a guest.
Other than that, it's all been like bonus things, but we are back to it.
So yes, episode 124 of I Don't Speak German, the podcast that is called that, and is hosted by me, who's the person speaking to you, Jack Graham.
I'm rusty, can you tell?
And Daniel Harper, who has also been speaking to you so far and will now speak to you again about what the episode is about that we're doing now and what it is about, Daniel.
Absolutely.
So, we have done several episodes.
I don't know exactly how many, but it's probably at least five.
I mean, I don't know, about the organization called the National Justice Party, because we did one when they first came out, and then we did a two-parter about their 25-point political project, which it was very funny to listen to Mike complain that no one but us paid that any fucking attention.
Yeah, I wish I'd clipped that, but I'd have to go and dig through it.
It's fine.
And then we did a one on like the LaQuisha documentary and some of their like public projects, but it turns out that that organization is no more.
It is probably the most significant event that's happened in the extreme right.
Since we've been gone.
And so it is suitable for our first episode back to just discuss how much this party of clowns just completely failed to understand how to build a political organization.
And I think it also feeds into some of the flaws with fascism as an ideology.
I think this will be a fun show.
So, I mean, who could ever have imagined that the National Justice Party would not prove to be a durable and resilient organization in it for the long haul and really just the cell of the new glorious society?
I'm frankly stunned to learn that they've... and very sad, very, very sad to learn that they've I'm not actually surprised or sad at all, listeners.
I'm being sarcastic.
Sarcasm, one of the many humorous and rhetorical techniques that we will be employing during the course of this episode.
So, Daniel, tell us about the National... I mean, firstly, just in case this is somebody's first episode, you've listed sort of the other episodes that we've done about the National Justice Party.
Just in case there's somebody listening who didn't catch them, I know it's hard to imagine, but just imagine.
Or maybe somebody heard them, but, you know, Their memory isn't a hundred percent on what was in those episodes.
Maybe just start with a very brief sort of brush up on who the fuck the National Justice Party are.
Sure, or were, we should say.
Were, exactly, yes.
That's one of the disputed bits, and we're not going to get into the nitty-gritty details of that because it is fascinating to me, listening to these guys bicker, but also completely inane to 99.999% of humanity has no interest in that, so we're not going to get into that.
But the rest of them are listening to this show.
Pretty much, yeah.
So maybe I should get into that, but that just becomes a drama stream and we never want to be a drama stream.
So the National Justice Party was a political party, although it really was not.
It was never registered as a registered political party in the U.S.
because to be registered as a political party, you have to, um, any donations you get have to be attached to, like, a name.
Like, you have to, like, know who your supporters are and all that becomes public information above a certain dollar amount.
Of course they're not going to do that, you know?
And so it's technically an LLC, it's a Limited Liability Corporation.
It's essentially a small business that was run by the members, you know, the paid members of the The Right Stuff radio network.
And these are Mike Enoch, Pinovich is his real last name, but Mike Pinovich, Enoch, either way.
And then Jesse Dunston, who goes by Sven, and then...
Alex McNabb.
These are, to my knowledge, the only three paid members of TheRightStuff.biz.
So TheRightStuff was a website first, well it was a Facebook group first, and then it was a website, and then it was a podcast starting in 2014.
Their primary project is the podcast The Daily Showa.
Which is, I think kind of inarguably at this point, the single biggest podcast in white nationalism.
I don't think there's anything that's even close in terms of its reach.
And it has been so for at least since 2016, 2015-2016.
since 2015, 2016.
There's really no competitor in terms of its size.
So yeah, the National Justice Party was an attempt at a political organization started by Enoch and his buddy, Eric Stryker, His real name is Joseph Jordan, but he's gone by Eric Stryker online for years and then several and this and this gets into like why this whole thing collapsed several
Former white nationalist e-celebs who glommed onto the project.
Greg Conte was one, who was one of Richard Spencer's old buddies back in the 2016-2017 days.
Tony Hovader, who was a founding member of the Traditionalist Workers' Party with Matt Parrott and Matt Heimbach.
Michael McKevitt.
It was a young guy, uh, who was one of the kind of founding guys on the full house podcast, um, which he, the cold open was actually a, an introduction of Michael McKevitt from the full house podcast.
After all this shit went down.
We're going to display that, why the number three is significant here very, very shortly.
And then the father and son team of Alan and Warren Bailog.
Alan Bailog has ties in the White Nationalist Movement, going back to the National Alliance.
I think he was actually married by William Luther Pierce.
I think William Luther Pierce actually served as officiant at his wedding.
That shows you just how, you know, long he's been doing this.
The author of the Turner Diaries, among other things, and was active into this movement until he died in, I believe, 2002.
And then his son Warren, who is...
We've also spoken of like some length like I always wanted to do a Warren Bellag like episode by itself and we will do that now that we're back but we just never kind of got around to it back in the day but um yeah so it started with those seven guys and you notice that all of those seven people are well at least six are internet personalities they're e-celebs and not movement organizers um and so
They did some on-the-ground activism.
They did a bunch of, like, stickering.
They did some... Well, by on-the-ground activism, I mean that, like, whenever a black person committed a terrible crime against a white person, they would go a week later and do some big protest and complain that the black person is not getting hate crimes charges.
Even if there were obvious motives beyond just like pure racial hatred that made those things happen, because that's how they drew up, you know, some vision of support.
And they would film it and put it on their Odyssey channel and their BitChute channel.
And nothing ever really came of it, as it turns out.
But so, yeah, that was that was the National Justice Party is like it was this attempt to build A sort of white nationalist-focused political movement based really pretty overtly on what the NSDAP did in Germany in the 30s.
Their goal was to sort of build... A lot of what the NSDAP did was build Social movements around, we're going to provide you like, we're a social club first, you know, we kind of go, we do, we do things together, we hang out, we produce art, we produce music, we produce, you know, all these things, or at least we sort of collect these things.
That's kind of how a political organization worked in Germany in the 30s, but it's completely obviated by current American political standards in which everything happens on cable news or on the internet.
And these guys have been banned from all those things because it turns out when you're really openly anti-Semitic and want to murder all the Jews, You know, people don't want to bring you onto their television programs.
It seems, I don't know, like that's just, they find that completely, they find that very sinister, that there's only one explanation for that, and it's because the Jews are just secretly in control of everything, you know?
It's very unfair that their free speech is being taken away and they're being censored, and really only one thing could possibly explain it, which is a vast, nefarious Jewish conspiracy.
That's really the The only thing that could possibly be happening here.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So I told you I'd be using sarcasm, didn't I?
So that is the National Justice Party.
Again, we've done many episodes on the right stuff.
And Mike, you knock in particular and the various shenanigans that have gone on over there over the years.
Probably also notable is that.
The several people from the Right Stuff Network, including probably most notably, as we're going to discuss in a minute, someone who is still undocked, named Jazz Hands McFeels, was not a founding member of the NJP.
Um, in part because he, and I suspect in part because he did not want his actual name out there.
Um, one of the things with the National Justice Party is everyone like revealed officially their real names for the first time.
Although most of these people were, I mean, all these people were fully doxed.
Like Enoch and Stryker, I think Stryker was the only one who had never like officially like said, Oh yeah, my name is Joseph Jordan.
But he went as Joseph Jordan, like that was his name, you know?
But I suspect Jazz Hands really didn't want to get involved, at least in part because he is terrified of his identity being exposed.
But he was a giant booster and supporter the whole time.
But it turns out that other people who were making racist podcasts for TRS are not such big fans of some of the back stuff and some of the stuff that was going on behind the scenes with the National Justice Party.
And that's Kind of what we're going to get to chortle over today.
You don't mean that there was infighting between them, surely?
Oh no, no, certainly not.
No, there's never infighting.
So I think that's enough backstory.
People are caught up now, hopefully.
Those old episodes are still there if you want to go back and listen to them.
So I think we can go straight into the story of the collapse now, if you want to tell us about that.
The first thing you have to do is to think about why I played the cold open I did.
And of course, his favorite sitcom is Three's Company.
That was Coach Fenstock.
He was in Charlottesville on August 12th, 2017 for Unite the Right.
He is a former employee of the U.S.
State Department.
Um who got shit canned when it turned out.
Oh, no, you're actually a nazi.
Um, his real name is matthew q gerbert and um, he currently runs the the podcast full house, which Again, we will eventually do a full episode on it's a fascinating podcast And michael mckevitt was one of the like founding people who mysteriously just stopped recording with them Sometime in the middle of 2023 and nobody really understood why except well
Would you like to guess why there are many references to the number three?
There's no way I'm ever going to guess this.
That's just not how my brain works.
Tell me.
It's because you're not a right-wing shithead, because it turns out that Mike McKevitt and his wife, Alison, both of whom go by their real names, apparently, and accounts on this differ, but what is definitely true is They had a threesome with one of their close friends, like one of their female friends.
Mike McEvitt banged two broads at one time, one of whom was his wife, with whom he has four children.
And this was a fracturing of the trust that was engendered by being a founding member of the National Justice Party.
So much so that he was shunned for months.
So the joke is just the word three, because he had a threesome.
And yeah, that's the joke.
Being such morally upright and fiercely ethical people, this shocked them to the point where it destroyed their relationship with it.
It destroyed it destroyed.
I mean, I think they were so personally friends with him But it's like well, no, you can't you can't be a member of the organization now I will say that it was the looks of it more than the actual well, and I think even like the thing itself I mean look I'm going to I'm gonna give them like and I don't like doing this kind of drama with these people right, you know, like I don't care that they had a threesome.
Good on you.
I think it's ridiculous that that's the thing.
But the thing that, if I put on my very good leftist hat and say, Some of the details seem to be that the woman they had a threesome with was someone who was engaged in some activism with Evergreen, which was the sort of women's auxiliary of the National Justice Party.
Something I forgot to say was that the National Justice Party was, by design, 100% men, and so Evergreen is like the women's side of it, right?
You know?
Because, of course, they can't let girls into their special club, okay?
Um, and this person whose name I do not know, and I don't care to know, I'm not interested in those kinds of details, I'm not, you know, I don't care, but it does appear to be, like, she may have been someone who was in, you know, some kind of position within that, and McEvitt as, like, sort of a leader having relations with her might have been sort of an abuse of power.
Although this seems to be like 100% consensual and there was no like direct line of like authority or anything I'm just saying like if I wanted to put on my Maybe there's some there there, but that's not the thing these people are arguing about That's not that's not what upset them did the power balance in the employer employee or boss subordinate really that's not what upset them surely no, no, no, no, certainly not and there are stories of and you know, I can't I cannot like
Look, the national meetings and the regional meetings that these guys went to a few times a year, there are rumors that...
A lot of shit went down, and there were rumors of the leading guys going through the evergreen girls like they were Kleenex or whatever.
There were definitely rumors of that.
I put no weight in that.
I'm getting AfPak flashbacks now.
Yeah, I mean that stuff definitely happens and you know, I mean the thing is that these guys are all in their like 30s and 40s So it's like it's not like you're 24 or you're you know, and you're at you're like you're you're at you know CPAC You're suddenly, you know, like, you know fucking the other intern or whatever.
It's just like, you know, um, but there there are I'm very much on the, like, what you guys do in your bedroom is your business, you know?
What I find very funny about it is, like, at one time...
A follower of Chris Cantwell's came at me on Twitter because I was saying negative things about Chris Cantwell, and came at me and was like, this is like 2017, 2018, you know, kind of that era, and was like, well yeah, but Cantwell's been with two girls at the same time, and so therefore he's listed as the massive cockmaster, and you could never have an experience like that.
Yes, he's disappointed two women at once.
Mm-hmm.
Um There there are things I could say about that.
We're just gonna leave that alone.
Um, the thing is what she said any person any person I am like in like social contact with and like we talk about this stuff and it's like yeah a threesome is like babies first like sexual experience outside of Monogamy kind of I mean this is this is this is playing This is being like sexually adventurous on easy mode.
Like this is you know, there are You know, there are tons of, like, Midwestern couples who bring it.
Like, this is very, very normal.
Like, this is extraordinarily normal.
Especially if this is, like, a friend of both of them, and they just all, like, had a nice night together.
This is... this is nothing, you know?
This is like Karl MacLachlan in Blue Velvet saying, oh, I like Heineken.
Yes, exactly!
Heineken!
Yeah, no, exactly.
So, um...
I find it very funny that this was one of the, this is not even the first incident, but this is the funniest one.
Is that like, this became like, well, suddenly you are just completely banned from any of our events.
You don't get to hang out with us anymore.
I mean, Moms for Liberty do it, so.
I do actually have some audio of Alison McEvitt.
Well, I have a lot of audio of Alison McEvitt because she used to do a podcast with Warren Bailog's wife.
And some others.
Warren Bailey's wife is Emily Ucas.
We will eventually do an episode on her.
It is far past due.
But I do have some audio of her at an NJP mass meeting talking with Jazz Hans McFeels, who in his role in Fascination hyped NJP to the highest, highest who in his role in Fascination hyped NJP to the highest,
And so we have just... Jazz Hands used to go around these mass meetings and get like little three-minute interviews with like a whole bunch of people who are prominent in the movement and then, you know, and then he would put them on his Fascination Podcast.
And so here we have a minute or so of just Allison sort of talking and it gives you a sense of It's recorded at one of these mass meetings, so it gives you a sense of what the mood was there, and what the kind of energy around this sounded like.
So we're just gonna play this right now.
I'm here with Allison, the sole founder and leader of Evergreen.
We've wanted to get you on from NJP before.
We're here with one half of your beautiful family.
How are you this evening, and what do you have to say?
Well, I'm doing great.
That was a fantastic event.
We had so many children, so many women, beautiful families.
I have my own two little toddlers here with us tonight and they're trying my patience, but sweet white babies are worth it, right?
Beautiful white babies.
There's so many kids here tonight and it's actually a testament to the organization that you've built, which is the Women's Organization.
That is Eric Stryker next to me.
The Women's Organization and the number of kids and families here.
I mean, that wouldn't have been possible without everything you've done.
Yes, well that's actually a really big goal of mine, is to make all of these events as family-friendly as possible.
And I think we did a really good job of doing that tonight.
We had so many toys and games for the kids to participate in, so many women that I've never met before.
This was a really fantastic event and a testament to how family-friendly this whole movement really is.
You can see the trouble coming, because in that clip she's talking about how she likes to get lots of people together for toys and games!
JUSTIN.
Yeah, it's just a different kind of toys and games, apparently, that she's interested in.
I mean, even McEvitt on the Full House Bycast that I showed you the intro for, he said it only happened once, and I am pressing X to doubt on that one.
I think this was a regular thing.
He's a big guy, he's strong, he works in the trades.
There's a particular kind of woman, particularly this kind of right-wing woman who is very happy to... League of German Girls type woman.
Yeah, no, I mean, and again, I'm not complaining that you had sex.
I think it's bad that you're a Nazi and think that you get to do this.
Like, no, this is actually, like, stop being a Nazi.
You know, like, repent, become at least left-leaning.
And you know what?
I will never talk about your sex life again.
I don't want to talk about it now.
But, you know, it is, again, it's the ridiculousness of it that I find amusing.
And the hypocrisy, as per fucking usual.
Well, and, like, again, you know, I could, like, ding her for being, like, I want to make, like, a family-friendly event.
I want to have, like, family, kids around, and everything like that.
And then, like, it would be the very, like, normal, like, sort of, like, liberal scolding thing to be, like, But family friendly, but then you're sleeping with your friend and whatever, you know, but it's like, no, no, that actually is, you know, within like people in marriages with open relationships within like poly communities, like they're like part of what poly is, is like helping to raise kids.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like it's very, very common for like people in their thirties to be like, oh yeah, well, my boyfriend can come and like watch the kids for a couple of hours so I can like take a nap or whatever.
Like it's, you know, raising like this is, Incredibly healthy behavior, except they're Nazis.
Yeah, exactly.
Our way of looking at things is that you can be in a polyamorous relationship, or whatever you want to call it, as long as everybody's consenting and nobody's being abused, etc, etc.
And that's all perfectly healthy, and you can have your kids and your family-friendly events and all that, and as long as everything's healthy and consensual, who gives a fuck?
That's our way of looking at the world.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Come join us.
The orgasms are better.
Anyway.
Not that I can speak from experience or anything.
Anyway, so, of course, there's more than just a threesome that caused this collapse.
Really, the collapse was baked in from the beginning.
And, oh, I had, I could have pulled a hundred clips of like everyone laying blame at like different sources.
And like, I listened to this, this was like a huge deal when it happened.
And like literally everybody had their, had to throw their two cents in on a podcast.
I archived all of it.
It's all available.
I could put together an oral history using their own words of all the shit that went down and who is actually to blame for this.
But the long and the short of it is what happened was they start the National Justice Party.
They want to convert.
So there were previously, going back to like 2014, 2015 era, Fans of the Daily Showa and the other TRS shows started forming local groups where they could all go and hang out together.
They call these pool parties for...
Like in the moment current racial headlines around black people not being allowed to visit public pools and like there was an outcry around that and so they're like no no we're the pool parties because we're whites and we're actually excluding black people from our organizations etc etc.
They thought it was funny the name stuck and it's still in use today.
These are very informal local groups.
They did go through, like, in order to join one, you had to go through vetting through someone at TRS that is sort of, like, personally vet you.
Like, you had to get on a call.
I don't know exactly what their method was, but they had to vet you and make sure you weren't, like, some filthy communist or something.
But, you know, they were very locally organized, very locally.
And these are drinking clubs.
These are hangout clubs.
These are, you know, again, forming the kind of thing that, like, The NSDAP would have formed, just like, we're going to make social clubs out of this and we're going to use this as a way to organize people politically.
Yeah.
A completely divorce-trimmable historical context of all of that.
Exactly, exactly.
And the reality of the world today, etc, etc.
The idea of using a material analysis of, like, analyzing politics is completely lost on these people.
Even the ones who claim to be, like, read on this stuff.
And I do not claim to be, like, deeply read on this.
Like, I feel like I have a good handle on kind of what's going on.
And when even I can call your thing bullshit based on, like, basic principles, The thing is, you know, you're not doing the same thing, you know.
But what happened was the National Justice Party was formed and they wanted to convert all those people into dues-paying members of the National Justice Party, right?
And so...
You're taking people who are used to just coming and hanging out with their buddies and getting a keg or whatever, and suddenly it's, well, no, you have to pay dues now.
And the dues are like $30 a month.
This is not like throwing five bucks.
This is a significant investment of money, and they wanted you to come out and do organization.
They wanted you to come to protests.
They wanted you to do stickering campaigns.
They wanted you to do flyering campaigns.
And there's a pressure to do that.
I've got a great idea about how we can make ourselves popular.
We'll charge you to socialize with your friends.
Exactly, exactly.
So, and, internally, there's a ton of conflict between the various members of the National Justice Party, those seven people we talked about.
Particularly, apparently, Tony Hovater was Probably taking a huge, way too much money from the National Justice Party's donations.
And all these people were apparently paid like, in the like, low thousands of dollars a month.
Like, in the like, I think Hovater was paid like, I don't know, I hate to quote numbers because I'm getting this from like, forums where people are like, claiming things.
He was apparently being paid $4,000 a month to be the like, the chief executive officer, and that is absurd.
And So the rest of my clips are taken from an Odyssey channel from an Australian man who calls himself Randabot.
I don't know a whole lot about Randabot.
I can't, it's unlistenable content.
It's like six hour live streams.
The name is not encouraging.
It's just too much.
And there's so little content.
It's just, it's one of those like fucking live streams, right?
It's just everywhere.
If you step off of YouTube for like five minutes, you're going to find one.
Yeah.
Anyway, Jesse, Jesse Dunston, is good friends with Ranbot, and after the collapse of the National Justice Party, went on to explain kind of what happened.
Now in this, and I can't overemphasize this too much, in this 6 hour and 17 minute livestream, the actual juicy bits start at about the 3 hour and 20 minute mark.
And, uh, they go throughout the rest of the rest of the video.
Um, and we're going to play maybe like five minutes of that three and a half hours or so.
Um, so I'm leaving a lot on the table, but this is Jesse explaining to Ranbot in the audience, kind of what happened here.
Just before you start, are there any sick number jokes to look forward to or anything like that?
You know, any sophisticated humor where you sort of refer to other things using a number?
Because I really enjoyed that.
I don't think that's the case.
As I recall, there are no real numbers mentioned except the clip of the 600 paid supporters.
I didn't actually include that in these clips because it was just kind of isolated.
Apparently, the NJP, in all of its time, for all the three years it operated, It managed to get 600 people to pay to be a member of the party and was just leeching money from TRS the whole time.
This is from Jesse's perspective.
This is from him complaining as a small business owner and a successful small business owner.
Whatever you have to say about TRS, and I have many things I have and will say about TRS, it is a successful operating business for sure.
They make paywall material.
They produce a lot of content.
People willingly pay for this content.
My suspicion is that a lot of their that at least some percentage of that money is coming from whales who can just donate you know $50,000 a year with no question, but You know, they do have a large number of like paid supporters.
So But so yeah, so no no number joke So as far as I remember so keep your out for one if you find a funny one, then let me know I'll well I'll give him credit for that Will NJP transform into a civil rights organization?
This is Rambart, and he's reading a question.
That's a very lofty goal, and I wonder where you would get the idea that such a thing could be done.
A civil rights organization, civil rights organizations, or organizations that are endowed with tens of millions of dollars by Jewish donors, where would that come from?
Okay.
Where would that sort of thing come from?
Yeah, like, actual, like, uh, what you consider civil rights organizations, uh, like, they're, they're faking gay.
They're, they're fake, like, that, that's, like, the street team in the establishment.
Like, name one that isn't.
The establishment is, is designed to exclude the idea that whites have civil rights.
So, you have, first of all, there's that.
Um, in the NJP, It's worth, it's worth pausing there.
I included that because this is legitimately how these people see the civil rights movement of the 60s.
It's like, no, those people, like Martin Luther King was just propped up by the establishment.
And that's the reason that the civil, it's like, no, there were secretly Jews that wanted to destroy white people.
And the way they did that was...
Sticking the blacks on them.
This is so common in this movement as to be completely unstated.
It's the bread and butter of these movements.
Sorry, the establishment exists to deny civil rights to white people.
I don't know, it's been a while.
Maybe I've lost my climatization, but yeah, I lost it.
Anyway, I mean not to not to I mean not to drive like I understand that people get this right what he means by denying civil rights to white people he means like denying The rights of white people to discriminate against people of other races and people of other genders and people of other sexual orientations, etc.
The ACLU fights for white people all the time.
Civil rights organizations fight on behalf of union organizing.
There are a ton of leftist, liberal, even... Black people are not excluded from civil rights.
Historically, the ACLU has gone to bat for people that they shouldn't have, including the far right.
Including the literal marchers in Charlottesville at Unite the Right.
Literally those people.
The people who are talking right now.
Although, Jesse did not attend Unite the Right.
The, like, the group, TRS, had a large presence at Unite the Right.
These literal people, the literal individuals we're talking about, were defended by the ACLU in 2017.
So...
When they talk about white civil rights, what they really mean is kind of what states' rights meant in the 1860s.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
It's the same concept, you know.
Yeah.
No, it's just, you know, words do actually have... I know this is a controversial view these days.
Words do actually have meanings.
Things do actually mean things.
So, as I say, I think I'm a little bit out of practice listening to this stuff.
So, you know, I heard the phrase civil rights and the assertion the establishment denies civil rights to white people.
No.
No, that's a silly thing to say.
That's a very silly thing to say.
I don't know what it's going to do next, but you're going to just basically... I think their strategy is to continue with this idea of doing protest actions and activism.
Well, I mean, that's the stuff I've been loving over the last year.
Okay.
The difference being that this is not going to be like mandatory this or that mandatory participation and no more telling like there's you know, there was I don't know how many hundreds of people that were turned away or that chose not to go along because they decided to Tell people you're either gonna pay for a supporter membership.
You're gonna pay dues or you gotta are you gonna go?
That was a catastrophic failure as far as numbers go So... I don't... I think they're going to plan to do the same thing going forward, but hopefully with more... Without mandatory membership, mandatory payment, they're hoping that more people will want to participate with that kind of stuff, and that will attract more people.
But I wouldn't call it a civil rights... But the kind of people who won't, like, throw a $5 note on the counter once a month.
This is scintillating content, I have to say.
Yeah, no.
One thing that's, again, the reason I'm sharing it here is that, like, in December, this was recorded on, I think, December 16th, somewhere in that range.
It's middle of December.
Two weeks before Christmas or so.
At the time, there was some question about whether The organization or whether the name the LLC called the National Justice Party would continue or whether it would stop operations.
That's still kind of up in the air.
They were doing an operation at the time called Operation White Christmas in which they were taking requests for For needy white families who needed toys for their kids at Christmas and they were spreading a lot of money around to racist white people.
I actually think the children of racists should actually be able to have a nice holiday season.
I don't have a problem with that.
And, you know, your local toy drive would have also given that to you had you, you know, not wanted to not be around all the stinking blacks or whatever.
No, what I find interesting there is that at the time it was very much in question about, like, what was going to happen to the name.
And as of the time of this recording, I checked it this afternoon, the National Justice Party website is currently down.
So we will see.
I think there was something of like Warren Bailog was going to take it over, but Warren Bailog has no ability to produce income on his own.
Like he doesn't have like a big podcast network that he can just pay himself a salary for.
So it's very likely.
I mean, again, you listen to Jesse here.
And look, Jesse Dunston has wished me dead.
You know, right?
So, you know, I wish me dead personally.
Like, almost by name.
Like, you know, it's fine.
I have no reason to stand for Jesse here or to take his version of events at face value.
In fact, there are certain things he says that I... In terms of, like, how active Mike was in this and how much, like, the fuckups behind the scenes were... Mike just having a hands-off approach.
That's kind of the story they're telling.
Yeah, again, I doubt that very seriously.
I think Mike was much more involved in being a shithead than he wants to say today.
But I think this version of events in which the NJP was basically siphoning money and resources from TRS and the The ego queens of the White Nationalist podcast, E-Celebscene, were sucking up that money and squabbling and just could not get along with each other.
I think that story sounds very true to me, just based on what I've absorbed just from viewing it from afar.
That feels very accurate.
Well, thankfully, this is the first time that Nazis have ever done something that's been an absolute catastrophe and an embarrassment and decided to just deny That the leader had anything to do with it, and that it went wrong at all.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'll let the audience work out the very opaque reference you just made there, and just move on into the next clip.
I think they just used numbers.
A funded national, like, leadership was a huge problem.
Which is a, you know, it's a valid complaint.
It's like, okay, I'm in a, I've got, I've formed a pool party and, um, oh, where, let's say, let's say Phoenix, right?
Say I've got, uh, say I've got 25 guys in Phoenix that are, you know, they're not all TRS listeners, but they're all WNs.
Some of them are TRS guys.
They, this came together cause they heard about vetting and they heard about this as a way to get people together.
Right.
So you've got 25 guys in Phoenix and, um, You know, some of them are interested.
Some of them are doing, some of them want to do sticker stuff.
Some of them will go out and protest here or there.
A lot of them will be interested in going to a national meeting or whatever to hang out and meet people and see speeches.
Um, but then you tell them like, Hey, every single one of you right now, sorry, got to start kicking in $30 a month.
Otherwise, otherwise I can get lost.
And the results of that is like you get, uh, 30 you know 27 of those guys walk or what did I say 25 guys so say like 22 of those guys walk and three of them are like all right I'll do that.
That's kind of like how it worked out.
So because you know I don't because like what do I need you for what do I need you sending $30 for if I'm going to do a protest if I'm going to hang stickers what am I getting for $30?
We did get some number comedy after all.
We did, we did.
27 is a lesser number than 22.
I mean, he misspoke, it's fine, it's just, but yeah, there's some number comedy there.
Yeah, I'm just being an asshole, it's fine.
No, no, it's fine.
Being an asshole towards Nazis is, like, always, always, it's always ethical, Prince Beam, you know?
It's always ethical.
It sounds to me like what you have here is a problem, sort of a combination of problems.
One problem is that you have a pool of potential recruits who are not actually all that committed.
I mean, not to the extent of really stumping up money committed, you know, and the sort of the related intersecting problem you have is that you have what you what you have on your hands here really in place of an actual movement or even an attempt to create to seriously knuckle down and and the sort of the related intersecting problem you have is that you have what you what Where you want to you want to make money.
So you have a pretty fundamental you have an internal economic contradiction as as somebody might put it where you have a mismatch of of people who want to make money and the people they want to make money from don't give it to them.
That's not a tremendously good business model.
I mean, I hate to give these guys advice, right?
I'll give them some advice.
Well, I could give them plenty of advice that I'm not going to print on this podcast.
I think about something like Food Not Bombs.
And look, I've never worked with or for, I've never gone to a Food Not Bombs thing.
So I can't speak for it, but I know a lot of people who have.
It's a clear kind of anti-fascist organizing collective.
From everything I've heard, they do good work.
They're, like, perfectly, you know, so again, I'm not endorsing, but, like, everyone I know who's done work for them, like, plenty of people got into anti-fascist work by doing stuff with food dump bombs.
You're feeding people who need food.
You're providing material resources to the poorest in society, to people who, and you're, and they're doing that work, you're providing a material benefit.
What material benefit was the NJP offering to these members of the supporter groups?
It's like, well, we need the money to keep functioning, to go off and do things, but then what are those things actually doing for you materially in your life, right?
And the answer is not fucking much, except we're going to make more podcasts.
But then I can just pay for the TRS Paywall subscription for $10 a month and get all those podcasts.
What's the point?
Especially if you then have membership requirements where I have to go and do Like a stickering campaign, a flyering campaign.
Like these guys would talk about how great it made them feel to go out and put out NJP stickers or like anti-semitic flyers in places and how it was like a great like group bonding thing.
But it's not having a material impact on their lives or on the lives even of the people that they're trying to reach.
They're not going and like trying to improve the lives.
They're just saying come and listen to our shows, come and be a part of our thing.
We're gonna like take this country back with no like Way of doing it and this is why the NJP was enormously successful by the standards of like in terms of its messaging in terms of its branding in terms of its you know like the membership roles like there are Political parties that have been around for decades that didn't get even the amount of support that the National Justice Party gets.
The American Freedom Party, which used to be called American Third Position.
It dates back to the 80s, I think.
They run a presidential candidate every year and they get, you know, a few hundred votes.
Like, that's as far as it goes.
Now, that one is considered amazingly successful by the standards of, you know, these kinds of groups.
But they fizzled in part because they're all assholes and they can't get along.
I'm just imagining, like, we're going to start a political party.
We're going to start a political party.
The leaders are going to be ContraPoints, Hbomberguy, Lindsay Ellis, Dan Olson, and Hassan B, you know, Vosh.
These are going to be the leaders of our new political movement.
And like, first of all, those people, some of those people are actively toxic.
None of these people has any experience in politics.
These people have internal conflicts on all sorts of matters.
Just to put a pin in this, there's never a thing in terms of the National Justice Party, in terms of its collapse, in which there were ideological divisions.
It's not like, well, some of us were a little bit more small business, small market, libertarian-inclined, and some of us were a little bit more authoritarian, command economy-inclined, and so we had a difference of opinion in terms of et cetera, et cetera.
None of that ever came into play.
That was never an issue.
The issue was just personal dick-swinging bullshit.
I have two more clips.
The last one is going to be... is going to get into that a little bit with Eric Stryker, who it turns out everybody always hated, except for Mike.
Except for Mike Enoch.
And because Mike Enoch put up with him and liked him, he got to stick around.
But Jesse, in particular, absolutely hated Eric Stryker.
Anyway, we have one more clip before we get there.
Comments before we hit play?
Very briefly, just echoing what you said, really.
You look at people that practice What you could call entryism, like the Mormon Church does this, Scientologists do this, Trotskyist sects do this, they try to get into anti-war movements, they get into disasters and hand out food packs wearing t-shirts with their organisation.
They're not even doing anything like that.
And we've touched upon Which can be effective sometimes.
But we've touched upon the fact that this is completely historically illiterate.
It's an attempt to mimic a strategy that they don't really understand.
The Nazis did the whole community thing.
Because they were directly aping the structure and the practice of the German Social Democratic Party, which is the biggest workers party, the biggest left-leaning electoral party in Europe at the time, in the early 20th century.
And that was all, it was a huge organization full of Clubs and associations, but they did stuff.
They did amdram.
They did hobbies together.
They did hiking.
They did exercise again.
I mean, it was, it was the culture at the time.
I'm not going to go into this in a huge way, but they actually did stuff together.
The party offered people stuff and right.
They, they think they, they think they can get people to stump up cash essentially for nothing.
I mean, if those, if those organizations, if the NGAP was taking $30 a month from people and then offering them, all right, we're throwing a picnic in your, in your area, something three times a year, something, you know, you're going to get to meet with people, but they were already meeting with people.
They were already there hanging out and doing things for free.
Like, it's just like, it was literally just, it's just give us money so we can make more content so we can go.
And they did some like public demonstrations in particular, you know, The most disgusting... I mean, they're all disgusting, right?
But they really hopped on the genocide of the Palestinians because they hate Jews.
And I can't tell you how difficult it has been in this time of watching Israeli... just Israeli crimes against humanity.
And seeing that on my timeline, seeing that in my news every day, and then listening for hours a day, well...
These people chortled along with Hamas, with the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th.
Yeah.
Because any killing of Jews is justified.
Because ultimately, they don't give a shit about the Palestinians.
I've said this on Twitter.
If Egypt was doing this to the Palestinians, this would be like, well, this is a regional conflict.
This is just Arabs killing Arabs.
They would probably use different words than Arabs, but you know what I mean?
Yeah.
This is brown people killing brown people.
This is the authority of the Egyptian state taking control of some territory.
They wouldn't care.
It's only because it's Jewish people who are perceived to be doing it.
It's only because it's Israel that is doing this that they give a shit.
So they tried this kind of entryism using the genocide in Palestine.
They used this They tried, and they have done a lot of propaganda around it.
And frankly, I just haven't had the energy to prep an episode on that.
That's just a lot.
I don't know.
It's exhausting.
We might do something.
I mean, that was literally, like, I stopped being on Twitter for a while.
Like, I literally, like, I also got COVID around that time, and I was just like, I just need to, I just need to not even follow this.
Like, I was still listening to the Nazis, but I'm like, I can't, I just can't do this.
You know?
And when I get beaten down by this stuff, you know how bad it has to be, right?
Yeah, if anyone has antibodies, it's you.
Yeah, I have some pretty strong antibodies, but I was definitely in that place of like all right I'm just gonna nope out of this one for a while.
I just need to not I just need to not see Burnt Palestinian children any longer.
I just I just can't I just can't I just can't take it But back to the back to the point of the episode We'll do we'll do two more clips one of them is just kind of more the same and then We get into a little bit of the drama, and then we'll close it out so That was the whole fucking problem.
Like, you guys are internet personalities who do content.
Like, somebody else has to do the... the, I'm gonna do a big... I'm gonna do a big political fucking organization that... Well, I am.
I just embrace it.
I know I'm not cut out to be a politician, but I just know I'm cut out to be an entertainer.
I got some bad news for you, Randolph.
I'm cut out to, like... to, like, craft the message and spread the message.
Actually, well, Mike crafts the message.
I'm more like, I try to make it fun and silly so that it's a little bit more, you know, that was the edge we haven't, you know, anybody that hates on me, like you're just fucking autistic and stupid.
Like, how do you think we got this popular?
Like autistic people spitting like hate facts into a microphone.
People have been doing that for decades and it doesn't go anywhere.
You come out and you do a, you do a parody of a fucking, uh, of a, of a journey song.
Now you've got something to go along with that.
You got to do both.
And that's what we did.
A lot of people are mad about NJP and TRS because they couldn't imitate it.
Because we made it look fucking easy.
That's because we're the best at it.
Yeah, that's the problem here.
You're just too fucking good.
You're too fucking good at being a racist imitator.
And, you know, like, I included that clip in part because, you know, A, the thesis that I've always said about these guys, like, going back to 2017, long before this was a podcast, was they're using humor as a way of, like, injecting themselves into this kind of politics.
Like, they are merging, like, Jesse says exactly what I've always said about them, which they have said about themselves going back to 2017.
There's no new thing there, but it is nice to hear it in 2023, which I first listened to this.
No, no, they know.
Within their circle, they know exactly what their appeal has always been, is to merge this kind of shock jock humor with A serious white nationalist political theory.
But also like Jesse just kind of being like, it's because I'm the most talented Nazi podcaster, and that's why I deserve my tens of thousands of dollars a month in revenue for our business.
It's because nobody else could do this.
And yeah, that's why you're hanging out with Ranbot for six hours.
You know?
I don't know.
I wouldn't hang out with Ranbot for six minutes.
Probably about six seconds.
Yeah, I have no desire to hang out with Ranbot.
I feel bad even listening to Ranbot.
I had to listen to that.
I didn't listen to the whole six hours.
I listened to the kind of three hour and change chunk.
I listened to that about three times in like doing like vague prep for this episode so I could like find clips.
That is, and believe me, I've given you guys like four minutes of it.
It does not get more entertaining, I promise you.
It is exactly what you think it is.
When I originally was prepping to do this, I was going to go in and do the drama stream.
I was just going to talk about the internet scene details of how everybody hated each other the whole time, but accurately sourcing that and then trying to vet it and trying to figure out how much of this is true and how much isn't, that's a big, big project, which I have no ability to do just with the resources I have at my disposal.
As I assume details will come out over the next couple of years, and we may do a bigger thing around that, I could, again, assemble an oral history with 80 hours of work or something, just finding the clips and doing everything.
I could do that.
I have all the material.
Instead, I just want to talk.
Eric Stryker, he founded national-justice.com.
His, like, news website, in which he's doing hard-hitting journalism about how the FBI is secretly in control by the Jews, etc.
You know, like, um, you know, those kinds of things.
He claims that the National Justice Party was, like, his baby.
It was his thing that he was doing.
And oh boy, Cantwell also had some, um, commentary on the collapse of the National Justice Party.
Behind his paywall, which he then made public.
Particularly because he has always hated Eric Stryker.
Not even for the very good reasons that people hate Eric Stryker, because of his personality.
But because Eric Stryker, because he doesn't believe in libertarian economics.
So, that, we can do...
Full episode?
Oh, no, no.
This hate goes back to like 2018, my friend.
This is a raw and deep personal hate.
It cuts deep.
I may do.
I may prep full episodes on Cantwell's arguments with Jada Sands McFeels and Cantwell's arguments with Eric Stryker.
There's enough material for two separate episodes, and it would give you a lot of insight into the actual ideology around these groups, so we might prep for that.
Stop threatening me with a good time!
No, I just think it's a good summing up.
Libertarian economics, so stupid that even Eric Stryker can see through it.
And Eric Stryker's version of socialism, so stupid even.
Even Cantwell can see through it.
I feel very much, and we're off, we're a little bit off track here, but it's fine.
You can cut this if it doesn't work.
There was an episode, an early episode of Sam Harris's podcast, which was then called Waking Up, but then when woke became like a terrible, terrible thing, he renamed it Making Sense.
But there was a very early episode with Sam Harris talking to Jordan Peterson.
And I found that listen fascinating because Sam Harris Correctly diagnosed Jordan Peterson all of the faults, like, from his perspective of Jordan Peterson.
You're just talking in vague terms, you're not being rigorous, there's no rigor, you're just doing, you know.
And then Jordan Peterson correctly identified all the problems with Sam Harris of missing context, you know?
And it's like, these two people each understand the terribleness of each other, and they're both equally terrible.
Actually, I think Sam Harris Years later, it is actually now worse than Jordan Peterson.
Again, the genocide apologia for what's going on in Israel right now.
There is no one I hate more for this.
Even Mikey and Ike is not as bad as Sam Harris, in my opinion.
And we might... Ina is doing some great work on that.
I'm just going to let Ina play conversations, just dig into that so I don't have to prep an episode.
But yeah, she's great.
Ina, you're welcome back at the show anytime, of course.
So yeah, let's just finish this.
Let's, as Coach Finstock says at the end of every episode, let's bring this puppy home with one more clip.
Sorry, Striker.
Mike doesn't want to work with you.
I don't want to work with you.
You're not a team player.
control road because it comes out there.
No.
Sorry, striker.
Mike doesn't want to work with you.
I don't want to work with you.
You're not a team player.
Good luck on whatever it is you start up on your own.
He says that the reason he says he would like to strike Mike again, because then he doesn't have to run something on his own.
He always needs somebody else to run his stuff.
And he has the nerve to call me a parasite when it's like, no nigger, I enabled you.
Mike enabled you.
He called you a parasite?
Do your own fucking thing.
He called me a parasite.
He fucking run everything.
For basically, yep, I run everything for Mike and make sure Mike doesn't have to do all this stupid work.
And Striker came on as like the co-host of the secondary show.
Just because that show was kind of popular doesn't mean you get to call names like that.
No.
And basically, Mike was the only person with any patience for Stryker for years and he finally burned out Mike last month.
It's amazing.
I was shocked.
I had just basically resigned myself to it.
Well, I'm just going to have Stryker in my company.
Doing this work, I'm going to be attached to Stryker for the rest of my life.
Because Mike, no matter what Stryker does to him, no matter what Stryker does to us, it's just always going to be.
And then I was shocked when he told me, like, yep.
He called me a nasty name!
He called me a mean name!
I don't like him, but he's in my gang because my friend likes him.
I don't know why my friend likes him.
I get the feeling that it goes a lot deeper than that like in terms of like striker just being like a total prima donna thinking he's The like the smartest person on the planet because he's a towering asshole.
I mean Yeah, um, but I think that like really that that witster whistle for just how like petty and personal a lot of this innocent being and I haven't even gotten into the fact that like I think I did mention Hovater was taking like thousands of dollars a month for a chief of operations role in which he had basically no real responsibilities and no real ability to execute on that role.
There's a ton of like screenshots that have been shared.
I've put some of them, I didn't read any of them, but I put a bunch of them in the show notes and I did not like pull these from the original forums.
I took them from Telegram chats of people, like, arguing back and forth about this.
Like, um, so, uh, they will be in the show notes, so you can go and read some, uh, some of the internal drama, which I've explored here and using my own words.
So, like, you're not missing anything if you don't check it.
But there's a ton of this in which they just argue back and forth about, like, just the nitty-gritty details.
Greg Conte is like alleged to have like like Conte alleged that they had stolen like $10,000 from the fund from him when he was supposed to be in charge of it, but They claim that actually Conte had threatened to take it and so they had moved it to a different bank account and I have no idea.
In the like shared like the TRS account or the NJP account, whatever account they had, I would really love a forensic account to go look into all this stuff.
I think in the next few years, there might be lawsuits that happen because of this, although very few of these people have any money, so they can't afford to pay lawyers, so who knows?
But I would be delighted to really get the nitty-gritty from legal filings about what exactly happened in the background of some of this, because as the Unite the Right lawsuit, as Sinus V Kessler kind of gave us a lot of insight into You know what was really going on in the background in 2017.
I think in a few years we might we might see a lot more details are going to come out and as they come out I will be following it as best I can and I will share as much of it as I can With you guys because ultimately you're the real heroes because you listen and you pay me so It's fine.
I was trying to wrap it up with a joke, but like I I failed at that.
That's fine There's no numbers in it.
I'm tired of Encrypted reference to something using a number.
Don't you know how comedy works?
apparently not the only thing I I did want to I kind of Wanted to do something to mark a feeling that I have and it's really it's not a it's not a It's not a feeling that we haven't expressed on this show before but just the feeling that just everything That we talk about just gets worse and worse and worse which was
Back in series one of I Don't Speak German, we talked a little bit about the Weinsteins, Eric and Brett and Heather.
I'm not going to go into this in detail, but it's striking to me.
It's like an emblem of the whole thing.
It's like a quintessence of the whole thing.
It's just how much worse I mean, all of them.
But Brett in particular, for some reason, is the one that strikes me.
Just how much worse he's gotten since we talked about him.
Because he's batshit crazy reactionary nonsense when we talk about him.
These days, he's on the Alex Jones 17 to 20 million people have been killed by the COVID vaccine thing.
And he's just recently gone on Rogan, and he's now doing HIV denialism.
He's now denying that HIV causes AIDS.
So... Oh, I did not see that.
Yeah, it's far more likely to be the gay lifestyle, apparently.
I did recently check out the video they recorded right after the Dobbs decision, which revoked Roe v. Wade in the United States.
But yeah, no, Brett is...
Just, you listen to him in interviews that he did in 2017, and he was, like, he sounded pretty reasonable.
He said, like, he was kind of a right-winger.
He was kind of, you know, like, but he was like this kind of moderate, you know, like, he talks like a liberal, just kind of doing the, well, we just have to, you know, understand that, you know, we don't hate gay people and we just want to, you know, have, you know, in the same way that, like, this reasonableness is a sort of mask for, like, a kind of a far-right ideology.
But the, Or at least a right-wing ideology.
The further he's gotten into his, like, e-celeb fame, the more he's embracing, like, the most absurd claims from these far-right sources.
Like, the fact that, like, for me, the thing is, like, you know, more people know Infowars.
Like, he appeared on Infowars, like, a couple of days ago.
More people know Infowars, but he also appeared... He literally... He appeared on the Epoch Times, which is...
It's just a completely batshit, like fairly mainstream-ish.
It is not an overtly white nationalist organization or anything, but the craziest shit, but it's like slightly more respectable because they have a little bit more production value than Alex Jones does, and they don't like scream into a camera.
He and Heather appeared on what's it called?
Art Bell's show.
Yeah.
Like THE conspiracy theorists.
They appeared on his show.
And that was like two years ago.
You know?
And so they've just gotten worse and worse and worse.
Okay, so I think that's the show.
Thanks for coming back, everybody, and welcoming us back.
It's really, really good to be back, even though the things that we're talking about are, of course, horrifying.
And rain donations.
$30 a month to be my friend.
That's what it takes.
That's right.
$30 a month to be friends with someone who listens to this show.
That's really what it is.
Yeah.
If you listen to this show, you need to give us $30 a month and not be friends with anyone who does not also pay us $30 a month.
That's certainly not a cult-like dynamic in the slightest.
No, certainly not.
And a very sound business model.
And an absolutely sound method of political organization.
The revolution can't be far off.
OK, so we're going to wind up now.
Thanks for listening, everybody.
I'm on, regardless of what the end credits say, because I need to make the new end credits again, I'm not on Twitter, although I do sometimes pop in under the I Don't Speak German account.
But I am on Blue Sky now.
I'm Times Carcass on Blue Sky.
And Daniel and I both have the old Patreons, if you want to help us out, that's very much appreciated.
Share the show around, that's very much appreciated too.
We'll be back fairly soon.
We've got a bonus out that's just on our Patreons and there'll be another one of those soon.
In the meantime, buh-bye.
Goodbye.
That was I Don't Speak German.
Thanks for listening.
Follow us in all the places you usually follow podcasts.
For now, at least, we're both still on Twitter.
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