68: The Trial of Christopher Cantwell, with Hilary Sargent
Christopher Cantwell, the 'Crying Nazi', was recently tried and convicted in a federal court in New Hampshire. As our regular listeners will know, we've been following Cantwell's fortunes for some time. In this episode, Daniel and Jack are joined by special guest, journalist and Cantwell expert Hilary Sargent, to talk about the trial, and the long, winding, bizarre, horrifying story of how we got here. Content warnings. Notes / Links: Hilary's Twitter: @lilsarg Hilary's articles on the Cantwell trial for The Informant: https://www.informant.news/people/1157338-hilary-sargent Don't do meth kids: www.bitchute.com/channel/sFreBwLNiMDA/
I'm Jack Graham, he him, and in this podcast I talk to my friend Daniel he him, and in this podcast I talk to my friend Daniel Harper, also he him, about what he learned from years of listening to today's Nazis, white nationalists, white supremacists, and what they say to each white nationalists, white supremacists, and
Be warned, this is difficult subject matter.
Content warnings always apply.
And we're back already in...
It's IDSG again, the podcast that's now entirely about Tim Poole.
No, no, I'm kidding.
It's not like we'd ever obsessively talk about one particular sinister but ridiculous right-wing figure over and over and over again to the point of talking about him in nearly every episode and keeping you up to date with all the latest news about him.
It's not like we'd ever do that.
It's episode 68, and it's the big promised Christopher Cantwell episode at last.
I'm joined by Daniel, as usual.
Daniel, how are you in Cantwelliana?
He's not podcasting anymore, except for when he calls into his buddy Jared Hal's show.
So he's kind of easy to keep track of when he's in a 6x6 cell.
You know, I am a prison abolitionist, but yet I do appreciate that he's there.
It just makes it easier for me, because there's just less content to go through.
Yeah, you're a hypocrite.
I get it.
That's ultimately the only reason that he should be in prison, of course.
Indeed, yes.
It's not like he's done anything else, you know.
Quite obviously, quite obviously.
Yeah, no, I think Tim Pool news might become a regular segment if we need a little bit of douchebaggery, a little bit of something to kind of wet our lips before we actually start the regular podcast.
Well, as I'm discovering over the last little while, you know, hating Tim Pool, it's not just a hobby, it's a way of life.
Yeah, the comments, the degree to which people are coming out of the woodwork to tag the IDSGpod Twitter in various simple things has been kind of astonishing.
I think people were waiting for this one, but we should probably move on into the main topic, I think.
We've got a lot to cover today.
We should.
What I decided when I was like, because obviously we had to cover this, what I kind of figured out was despite the thousands of hours of this man's content that I've been tracking back to June 2017, I am not the real person to go to.
I am not the real expert in Tim Pool.
Look at what I just did there.
My brain is fried by fucking Tim Pool.
I am not the expert on Christopher Cantwell.
Instead, I brought on a real expert.
And with that, with no further ado, thank you, please, I'd like to introduce you to Hillary Sargent, who's going to be kind of filling in and become the actual person of information on this podcast today.
Hillary, welcome to the show.
Thanks so much.
It is kind of mortifying being introduced as that thing, I have to tell you.
I like to lay high expectations on the guests, so that if they fail to reach them, I look better in comparison.
I can understand why being introduced as a Cantwell expert makes you reconsider your life choices, probably.
It really does.
Yeah, for a long time, whenever there was anything Cantwell that, you know, any news piece, I suddenly got tagged by 20 people, you know, with anything related to him.
So yes, I saw it.
I saw it.
And so I can only imagine what your life has been like lately, Hillary.
I'm sure it is.
I get offended if I'm not immediately informed of every slightest development.
So please go tag LIL Sarge, S-A-R-G.
Please go tag Hillary instead of me now because I'm kind of done mostly focusing on Cantwell unless he starts on a regular podcast again.
Then I'll be happy to focus on it.
But the abuse that I received from people earnestly trying to inform me about Cantwell's Activities in the real world is clearly the most abuse that anyone has ever suffered from Cantwell.
And then I now turn it over to you, Hillary, to tell us why we have invited you on this show today.
So I was not someone who followed the movement closely at all.
I was really, you know, I mean, I was aware of Unite the Right and I had read some pieces on the movement, but I, but I did, but I made no effort to To sort of delve any deeper than that.
And I think it was the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting.
I, along with every other journalist, it seemed at least at the time, I began posting a little bit about Gab at first and, and was pretty like immediately doxxed by Rob Monster, who's actually the domain registrar for Epic, which is took over Gab and
I sort of thought that was crazy enough and somewhere during that, those first couple weeks, so this is like early November 2018, you know, I went on Gab and one of the first posts that I saw was a post by Cantwell advertising this video game called Angry Goy 2.
And he had just posted this like really vile description of like a game where you get points for killing Jewish people.
And I just took a screenshot of it and tweeted it.
And it was really directed at Rob Monster and Gab, because they had reached out to me and asked me to stop tweeting about Nazis on Gab.
And I tweeted it to indicate to them that they might have a problem.
And I think later that afternoon, I got a message.
I think it was from Michael Hayden, who was at the SPLC.
But he wasn't at the SPLC at the time, and he said, I think Christopher Cantwell was posting about you.
That's always a good sign.
That's always a good sign.
I honestly don't know that I was alarmed, because the post he sent me did not name me, and it said something to the effect of... My Twitter bio at the time listed five lines, and then it had a list of places I had written for, and the most recent place I think I had written for at the time was the New York Times, Cantwell had written this post, like, someone should go and murder this New York Times reporter, but didn't name me.
And I replied to Hayden, and I was like, that's not about me.
Don't be ridiculous.
And within an hour, there was like, someone should go rape and murder Hillary Sargent.
And then like an hour later, there was another one.
And that was my introduction to the white nationalist movement.
It's a very apt introduction, I should say.
I will say that there are a lot of us who have been following Cantwell for a long time.
And particularly mutual acquaintances, Emily Gorsinsky, friend of the pod, who's been on this podcast, and Molly Conger, aka Socialist Dog Mom.
And you and I have been following this guy for a number of years at this point.
And three of those people have received numerous threats I think that's part of it.
and various harassment, et cetera, et cetera.
The other one, me, has not, in so many words, received that kind of abuse.
And I can only imagine what the difference is there and why that happens.
I'm still.
I think that's part of it.
I mean, I do think that, you know, I mean, I think that's an obvious element of it is that these guys pick women as, And I think, but I don't think I was an obvious, I certainly was not an obvious target to myself.
I did not anticipate.
I did not sit down and say like, should I tweet this?
Is this going to completely transform my life?
He latched on and I think it was like almost, it was like four months of pretty continuous, he offered up at one point, A free radical agenda bumper sticker to the person who made the best like meme about raping me using a picture of my dog.
And that's when I was like, Oh God, what if this never ends?
And I didn't know Molly Conger or Emily or you or you know, I really didn't know anyone until this happened.
And those are all people that I've come to know really well, but largely as a result of reaching out to them, trying to understand what was happening to me.
I will say I think our first conversation and you know because I also I think you messaged me on Twitter about something around Cantwell or some similar issue.
Because I was kind of known as being like this before the podcast started, sorry to kind of go, I don't remember the exact details of this but like.
I think it was about Corbin maybe.
Oh yeah it could have been about Jack Corbin, although I don't know a ton about Jack Corbin, it might have been about some person that I was following that I was like tweeting about and you were sort of messaging me about, but I remember that it was Cantwell, it was at least Cantwell adjacent because I get a lot of contacts from journalists.
And certainly it was even at the time when i had like seven hundred twitter followers right as being somebody who really had like the finger on the pulse of like the neo nazi podcast community.
Which is true but i you know and so i was i would get like kind of contacts from journalists to be like can you like carefully curate like the three minutes of this that i need to write a story.
Send it to me and like show it to me and like i get it because i understand the pressure the journalists are under in the time crunch and just the sheer emotional drain of listening to any bit of this content at all.
And so you message me and you're like you were asking some questions and i'm like oh i can go and listen to this and can let you know if there's anything in it and you're like i can listen it's fine and i was like.
That's someone I definitely need to be in more contact with.
Yes, this is an ally.
So, you know, again, no disrespect otherwise, but it was definitely kind of one of those like, oh, no, this is fine.
Yeah, no, please, if you want to help listen, that's great.
So anyway... Well, I had no intention of writing... I mean, just to be clear, like, so when this started happening, I immediately stopped writing.
I did not write anything from...
Um, I think maybe January of 2019 until two weeks ago, three weeks ago for anyone ever like period.
Because what happens when Cantwell targets you is, you know, he had, I mean, I don't like to say this because I don't believe he actually has a significant fan base, but at the time.
He just has this ragtag group of complete psychopath incels following him.
And so it sets off this sort of endless flow of harassment from other people.
And so I sort of, I think naively at the time, figured if I lay low, they'll forget.
And that didn't, you know, happen entirely, and I'm not that good at laying low.
But yeah, I didn't, you know, I didn't, I didn't intend on writing about him.
I just, you know, when someone's posting about you that much, you sort of are inclined to, like, try to figure them out a little bit.
And also, you know, he lives in the same corner of the United States that I live in, and I was sort of, like, trying to gauge, like, Should I be worried?
How much should I be worried?
Like, what should I be worried about?
And so you have to kind of...
At least my instinct is to just figure out as much as I possibly can about someone if they're threatening me.
I can't imagine that impulse.
I have no understanding of that at all.
So, you know, it's fine.
So jumping ahead a little bit because we are here to cover the trial of Christopher Cantwell.
But this is sort of the background where you first sort of became aware of him and started kind of following him and tracking him to some degree and kind of got involved in I don't know how you would define yourself as like sort of anti-fascist researcher, anti-far-right researcher, I don't know.
You can define however you want.
Yeah, I mean, I don't really like, you know, I'm not sure it's completely fair to anti-fascists to describe I certainly have found people within that movement who, who know where I'm coming from and who I'm very comfortable working with.
I don't know that politically we line up in, in every way, but I'm, you know, I'm, I'm very squarely in the, uh, in the opposed to, to fascism.
I mean, that, that's not a hard sell for me.
Um, right.
Hard sell generally, should it, but you know, 2020.
Yeah, exactly.
And willing to do like real work.
In that space which is another kind of element to this which sometimes gets Lost in terms of you know, I mean we discussed this on a previous episode Lots of people with a lot of different political ideologies have been guests on this show I work with a lot of people with a lot of different Jack and I don't even agree on everything and we just don't talk about that here because that's not the focus of this podcast because the point is to Understand these far-right dickheads and oppose them by any means we can so yeah
As far as I'm concerned, the people that do the work get the props.
That's kind of where I land on it.
So sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you there.
No, no, no.
I mean, my background is to some extent in journalism, but really it's not.
You know, I did political opposition research and then I worked really as an investigator investigating financial fraud and organized crime and
And different things like that, not for law enforcement, but my background is in digging into complicated things, and I'm more comfortable in the background than I am, you know, in the byline, like, star position, so it was sort of, you know, a natural fit to research these guys, and it didn't bother me not to have the moment in the spotlight of actually covering them.
Well, congratulations, you are now in the spotlight.
My apologies for the tiny little spotlight that we have here.
Like, you know, I know it seems like, you know, for me, the whole thing is, you know, I just tend to be pretty good at explaining this stuff to normies.
And so, like, that's sort of what I try to do.
There are plenty of people doing much more important work, but like, I get credit for it because I'm the one who first you know said the words ball patrol on a podcast or whatever but like it's fine.
That isn't true that wasn't the first one to say ball patrol on a podcast just to be clear.
Well no I was just gonna say that I mean I sort of started paying attention to Cantwell at a very at what what has turned out to be a critical time in terms of the trial that that just happened.
It was right when he unbeknownst to me got himself into this feud.
I'm not sure if that's really the best way to describe it, but that also isn't great at the same time.
The Hatfields and McCoys, if the Hatfields are accelerationist terrorist Nazis, and the McCoys are vote for the Republican Party and push them into a Nazi direction, but both sides are deeply misogynistic and want to annihilate all Jews.
Yeah, I think the nature of the feud was somewhat simpler than that.
More indicative of the extent to which he could dole it out but had zero ability to take it.
He really was not centered around any disagreement in politics as much as it was just a very insane series of prank calls.
That's really what it comes down to which is where and in camp will saw him so I'm not trying to defend can't well here and all I don't don't get this wrong but my read of kind of listening to it and kind of following it from.
Year year and a half before it really started to the present day was that.
After he got out of jail, he really kind of thought, like, I have really kind of been pushing the envelope a little bit too hard, and I need to pull back from this mass shooter thing because I want to sort of be engaged in something like traditional politics, right?
Yeah, I think, and he also, like, Cantwell, the biggest difference between Cantwell and the Bull Patrol to me is Cantwell felt like he did his time, you know, he not only talked about violence, but he actually did it.
And now it was his turn to make a living doing this.
And I think he realized when when you decide you want to be featured in a vice documentary, and then and then someone gets gets murdered at the rally, you get deplatformed really quickly.
And he felt he felt like that was completely unfair.
Like why should other Nazis Not get in equal amounts of trouble.
Like, he felt like he was at a disadvantage and so he needed everyone around him to kind of, like, play ball and tone things down so that he could get the money rolling back in.
And I think Bull Patrol was just like, nah, fuck you.
And that just sent him into a complete tailspin.
There's also the element here in that Cantwell was under his real name and he saw like all these kind of other figures kind of like quote-unquote Vic Mackey and you know tactical bowl cut etc etc kind of off kind of doing their own thing where they can just kind of disappear into the ether if if they ever went too far and like there is and you know we can say you know you and I are under our real names and doing this work and there are differences between
What happens to people who are easily findable versus what people do under an anonymous Twitter account and like you know that that's just that's just kind of a reality of being on the Internet right.
There are those same frustrations I think from people who are doing work under their own names and.
And accounts on the far left that are anonymous.
I think those same frustrations exist on, I don't want to say the words, on both sides, but honestly, they do.
I mean, sure.
I mean, it's a feature of the way that sort of like internet reality, like sort of political activism and fringe.
I don't know.
I don't want to, I think we're kind of struggling for words here, but it's just a feature of the way that politics kind of works on the internet and the way that people do activism on the internet is that like some people are kind of Upfront with their identities doing a thing and some people are anonymous and it becomes a it's a complicated rhetorical space and that's a fascinating conversation but not the one that we're doing today because what we really need to move into is the actual and we can now we no longer have to say alleged because he has been convicted.
The crimes of Christopher Cantwell.
I would.
I mean, I think we have discussed it here on this podcast to some degree, what he was charged with.
But I think it's worth, since you have written, and we will link to your numerous posts over at The Informant, which are all excellent, particularly the first and the last, which I think are more dig in deep and do some philosophy and do some background work, as opposed to the trial ones, which are all great, but kind of focused on The mechanics of the trial, so I'd recommend all of them, but particularly the first and the last.
And I would ask you if you would describe for the audience, some of whom may not know who Cantwell is, but I think we can assume everyone kind of knows where we are at this point on this podcast.
What exactly was he charged with, and what was the actual crime that he committed?
So, so beginning in sort of like late 2018, early 2019, Cantwell's, you know, attempting to sort of go, I wish I was going to say Cantwell's Cantwell's cucking slightly in order to regain payment processing.
That's exactly what he was doing.
There's no, like, you know, it's fine.
And it's also, and this is where I think Cantwell got it a little bit wrong.
There's a huge amount of attention on Cantwell from Unite the Right on in terms of efforts to de-platform him and efforts to disrupt whatever he wants to do just to make his life harder.
And those were coming, you know, those were coming from From the, uh, from the far left and they were coming from the far right.
I think Cantwell determined when, when bull patrol sort of started pranking his show, you know, he took one at one days, he was doing three days a week on radical agenda.
And he decided that Wednesdays were going to be the day when he would be quote family friendly, um, which is, and, and he renamed the show on Wednesday outlaw conservative.
And you could see in chats from the time in his.
Then private group, which, you know, sort of became public a little bit later, but it was private at the time that he literally said, like, here's what I'm trying to do, guys.
Like, I need everyone to play ball.
Like, don't call in and and prank this show because, you know, this is my fucking job.
Well, he was trying to make money and like he was trying to push people into Bitcoin and he was obsessed with getting everyone into Bitcoin so they could give him money.
Like, that was the whole thing.
And this is in the period.
No, no, this is in the period in which Bitcoin was crashing, right?
And then he realized, like, then he realized, I can't, like, I'm not going to be able to make money doing this, like, in Bitcoin.
But if people can use a credit card processor, then we use a credit card processor.
So he starts out a lot conservative.
And this is my feeling from kind of following it from the moment.
And so, like, there may be some light between the way you and I interpret this.
But my interpretation was, he starts out a lot conservative, almost as like, I can do this, I can do it as its own independent brand, and as long as we don't do anything out of the ordinary, as long as we sort of avoid saying Jews and say rootless cosmopolitans, you know, to oversimplify, I can get credit card processing and then all the money can come through Outlaw Conservative.
But by that point, he had been completely fucked over by everyone else in the movement and nobody wanted anything to do with him.
So it was a failure completely.
Yeah.
And so the Bull Patrol starts doing, you know, this sort of pretty identifiably Bull Patrol stuff to him, which causes Cantwell to take everything that happens to him for the ensuing however many months.
And attribute it to Bull Patrol.
Right.
Every asshole who calls in is Bull Patrol.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Everything bad happens.
He steps his toe.
He steps his toe.
It's Bull Patrol made that happen.
Yeah.
And I think it's important to note that in late 2018, in addition to like coming after me and coming after a couple of other people, he was also doing things like, I didn't even know this existed.
But calling into dating party lines, trying to get like people of color, like women of color on the line and then, you know, like yelling terrible things at them.
He was, like, creating... So he was doing... I listened to all that.
I listened to all that at the time.
He was very, like, prank-friendly, right?
But then they started pranking him, and one of the hallmarks of Bull Patrol is And, and, and a place where they have pretty, you know, undeniable talent is in doing like voice imitations and, and they would call in pretending to be like people in the NSM and they would just mess with him.
But he starts sort of lumping it all in together and he decides that the only way, um, well, sorry.
And then in, in February, the beginning of February, they, he had given Bull Patrol, um, like a login to his WordPress site.
Because at one point, he had actually been letting them post their podcast.
The bull cast, right?
Yeah, the bull cast on his site.
And, you know, Cantwell being Cantwell, he had not rescinded the login credentials.
He claimed in court that he had, but he had not actually like, he hadn't, right?
He may have, he may have like told Vic Mackey, you're not posting the show on here anymore, but he didn't take away his password.
The thing that we know about Nazis is that they have amazing operational security.
That's uh yeah there's one thing we know.
I think Cantwell probably yeah I mean yes Cantwell but anyway so so one day in February We're not even going to go there.
It's just like, fine.
Hillary's like, yeah, I get you.
I know what you're saying.
I have a point to make.
Just let me do it.
I mean, I don't know.
It's hard to say like Cantwell's operational security like Cantwell argued at one point in the trial that that it was very unfair how he had been doxxed.
But like his address was so public.
That within the first day of him threatening me, three different Nazis sent me pictures of his house and his home address.
Like, it was pretty out there.
And it was, you know, he used it to, when he formed his LLC, like, you could literally Google the words, like, Christopher Keene, And like 50 Kiwi Farms links would pop up with like... Not even, like his voter registration, his voter registration was out there.
Like yeah, like it's not, it wasn't hard to find, you know, I think you could probably argue that the Maryland location, which I don't know that we want to get into that on this podcast, but the Silver Springs location where he was briefly broadcasting from, like that might have...
Yeah, the girlfriend's house would have been like a more, like if they doxxed that, that's a little bit more of a like, okay, a difficult thing.
Yeah, but by the way, when these guys get doxxed, and this is, you know, I think the difference is Antifa people don't actually, in my experience, from what I've heard from white nationalists, they don't actually show up at their houses.
But anyway, so Vic Mackey or Andrew Cesaris.
Cesaris.
Cesaris.
I don't know if it was Cesaris himself or if he handed it off to someone else.
But one night in February, they go onto his website and they post several brutally apparent...
It's immediately clear that these are not posts that Cantwell made.
One of them was just like a picture of like animals having sex.
One of them was, which by the way Cantwell reported the next day to the FBI as like a bestiality photo was posted on my website.
Also, every issue of the National Geographic and every zoo.
He's not actually an FBI agent, but there is an individual who was a Virginia state trooper who was assigned to the FBI task force during Unite the Right whose name is Dino Capuzzo.
I'm sorry, Dino, I don't know you, and I apologize that this is the place that you now hold in white nationalist culture, but he's sort of become the only name that people know, so if they're gonna talk about the FBI, they talk about Agent Capuzzo.
And Cantwell had sort of tried to walk this fine line of saying, like, well, I cooperate with law enforcement, but only to screw over Antifa.
And they posted something that was like, To someone who knew nothing about this might have looked as though Cantwell was writing a post directly to this FBI agent.
There's no, there's zero chance that anyone at the FBI actually thought that's what it was.
Cantwell would later argue that like this was pole patrol trying to get him arrested for a crime.
That's preposterous, but anyway.
He wakes up that day, right, and realizes that not only have they posted all of these things, but that he had an automatic setting so that when he created a new blog post and clicked publish it, sent it out to his email subscriber list.
So they had all been emailed to every Antifa person that has subscribed to Christopher Cantwell.
Which is a substantial number of people, right?
Five subscriptions that Jared Howe has for himself or whatever it is.
And this really put Cantwell over the edge.
So Cantwell, I mean, some of this is sort of what we now know.
Cantwell at the time, though, posted a blog post and he was like, I have reported this to the FBI.
What we now know is that he actually filed an IC3, which is like an internet crime complaint, and detailed, like, he was, he was like, the Nazis are posting bestiality on my Nazi website, although he didn't.
And, you know, this feud sort of kept going at that point.
Now, what happened around that time is that So I'll back up a little bit.
In November of 2018, this woman that Cantwell was dating, who was in the movement, or she was at least at the time, in sort of, he described her in the trial as being part of his inner circle.
Her name is Caitlin Fry.
And she went by Peach in the like, Radical Agenda Telegram group.
She, along with another guy, part of Bull Patrol, went to another Bull Patrol guy's house.
And so she, from that moment in November, had this dox of this guy in Bull Patrol.
And Cantwell knew that she had it.
And so when they went and did this to his website, he went to this guy who used the pseudonym Cheddar Maine, and was like, don't fuck with me.
Who is Ben Lambert.
Yeah.
Cantwell didn't know his name at the time.
Right.
Cantwell just writes to Cheddar Maine, but he knew that he could get it.
And Cheddar Maine, at least from the evidence presented at trial, seems to have backed off and sort of pulled back from pranking Cantwell.
But Vic Mackey and company seem to have proceeded.
I guess so fast forward you know now during this entire time what we find out at trial is that Cantwell in by late 2018 was already under FBI surveillance they had a poll camera at the end of his driveway.
Which.
You know, we don't know what prompted that, but what it ended up being used for was to show that at the time these threats, which he ultimately got charged for, were made that he was in the state of New Hampshire.
The only way to charge for federal threats Is if they're interstate and you have to be able to establish like where someone is which is hard with telegram because They're not cooperative with law enforcement.
So yeah, there's an electronic communications like basically anything over electronic communications or even like a telephone line I'm not a lawyer don't like but anything kind of within that like you have to prove like oh if I'm in New Hampshire and you're in Vermont It's over a state line and therefore it's a federal offense a federal case, etc, etc, which has
Deep civil liberties and you know deep, you know, there are serious problems with this But like yeah, no, it does it does seem to be but if you're gonna have it by all means use it Use it against Nazis.
Yes, please That that's sort of important because like the the most hilarious part of this I mean there are a lot of hilarious parts of this but the most hilarious part to me is Is the extent to which, so unbeknownst to Cantwell, by late 2018, he's on the FBI, like the FBI wants to get him.
Now, what they wanted to get him for is unknown, but he literally proceeds to spend the next year doing all the things you wouldn't do if you knew the FBI was trying to get you.
So he's under, you know, and they're following him.
They have physical surveillance people following him.
He starts reaching out to the Keene Police Department, which he thinks he's developed a friendly relationship with.
The Keene Police Department is clearly in some level of communication with the FBI because when he goes, I think in May, to meet with the Keene Police Department to complain about this harassment from Bull Patrol, the FBI is taking photos of his car in the parking lot.
So, like, clearly the Keene Police Department was like, hey, he's coming over here if you guys want to take some pictures of his car.
Which is amazing and hilarious to me.
So, in June... Well, apparently there's a warrant that they used to, like, the warrant that they eventually used to arrest him.
Yeah.
Was based on... The warrant is actually for the search, yeah.
For the search, right.
So, we know that there's a, like, he has, like, a magnetic thing on the back, on the bottom of his car.
Yeah, like a Pelican case, yeah.
Like a Pelican case on the bottom of his car.
And so the correct size and shape that could store digital media.
That might be related or but but or a gun which it seems like it only served guns but but it seemed like they were arguing in that and I read that warrant and it's like you clearly he has a gun underneath the bottom of his car like that's the thing but they use the well there may be digital media under there that he could like flee from etc and like they're using that as a like the excuse to kind of like I don't think they knew it was a gun
I think that they, honestly, I think probably my hunch is that if they couldn't get him for anything else, they were probably going to try to do what they did to Casares, right?
To say, like, you can't have guns and be, like, putting meth in your butthole at the same time.
That's the other piece that I missed.
So in January of 2019, and I think this is truly what put him over the emotional edge.
At the end of 2016, Cantwell, for reasons that will never ever be clear, no matter how many explanations I get, records 12 hours of audio or 10 hours of audio.
It's this like insane like five or six part.
I have listened to the whole thing twice.
It's like the most brutal.
Even I have not listened to this whole thing.
I will.
I will eventually.
I will eventually listen to the whole thing.
But yeah, I will.
But I have not.
I have other things.
I've had other things going on.
You know, the Eddie W crowd.
I did not listen to it until I was writing that first piece for The Informant.
I had it, but I had not listened to it.
But anyway, he records this thing, and I think what happens is, you know, he will now argue that that was like performance art, but the Feds have used it in, you know, at the detention hearing, so I'm going with it's not.
It's the Alex Jones maneuver.
Right, and so I think he accidentally uploads it.
You can't do like 20 hours of like... It's the most honest piece of audio he's ever recorded in his entire life.
Like, I will go to my grave believing that it's the only thing he's ever done that's honest.
Without having listened to the whole thing, with only listening to the curated clips, I do mostly agree with you, but I think his bit about Cricket Slick That he did on his show is equally, uh, is, is like a thousand times worse.
He goes into detail of like non-consensual, um, things he's done to women, like very gruesome detail.
I think, I think I mentioned a bit of that on episode six.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cricket slick is the girlfriend, isn't she?
One of the five women who have chosen to abort the child of, of Christopher Cantwell.
And she dated him.
For a period of time, and when the relationship soured, he called her and recorded phone calls discussing this, and they still remain all over the internet.
It's, like, one of the more reprehensible things that he did, for sure.
But anyway, there's this piece of audio that sort of, like, the Kiwi Farms, like, Cantwell Watch crew Seems to have and in January 2019 someone releases God, I forget what the original name of it was.
Maybe don't do meth kids.
I think that's what it's uploaded as now.
You can Google it.
It's still on bit shoot.
I think if you just Google like meth Christopher Cantwell bit shoot it should come up.
I'm happy to post.
I'll give Daniel a link so you can post it in the show notes.
It's only 45 minutes.
It's basically like excerpts from this.
Insanely long recording and during this long recording he talks about being addicted to meth and and doing it in his butt.
I don't really understand enough about meth to know how you usually do it but like I know that's not I know that means you're like really into it.
I took Justice Kavanaugh and get him to explain it to us.
Right, but the Bull Patrol basically goes from sort of like making fun of him to everything from that point forward is a reference to Cantwell's butt.
Yeah.
He's called Boothwell.
It turns out at trial, he breaks down at trial several times talking about how mean this was and like it really got to him.
Like, I mean, there's a telegram sticker pack that includes just like, I don't know, like really gross stickers of Christopher Cantwell and a spread eagle nude.
Is it uncensored?
Because I've only ever seen the censored version of that.
My impression of that picture is that Cantwell posted that on his own site in some effort to like troll Anonymous or something like that.
I don't know that it was ever released.
I hope it was never released.
You know, unredacted.
But I've seen it.
People still send it to me.
Like, I'm not sure why, but a lot.
I hope this episode of this podcast does not mean that you get a thousand people sending this to you.
I hope that's not what happens.
Honestly, I have a very helpful group of the most helpful thing that Nazis have ever done for me is that every time, you know, because they saw that he was posting about me, You know, they'll send me everything about Cantwell, which is helpful.
Which just tells you, yeah, we're Nazis, but we fucking hate Cantwell.
That tells you everything, ultimately.
Like, hating Cantwell, I became convinced for a period of time was the one thing that could bring the country together.
It's that meme of, like, the one arm and the other arm, and then, like, five other arms, and it's all, like, hating Cantwell, you know?
No, I've talked to a lot of people in the movement, and the only thing that I knew anything about, and the only thing, you know, one of the only things I, in some ways, know something about now is Cantwell, and so that was the only discussion topic.
And it's it's like a very easy topic to discuss everybody has a camera story that's the thing is like whatever you have if you do talk to one of these guys it's like oh yeah so can't well it's like oh my god that guy is a total like dipshit like it's always.
You hear this stuff and you know not to delay you but you sort of get i mean you know.
I do anyway.
You just get the sort of normal instinctive pity or empathy reaction start, don't you?
You start to feel that, and then immediately you remember all the vile, horrible, disgusting shit this guy's done to other people.
No, I think that's a good point because, you know, my reaction, not because of any sympathy with Nazis, but my reaction, I think, with these guys Just like viscerally is to sort of be like, what happened to you that, that this is where your life went.
And the thing with Cantwell is, you know, it became, it was really clear to me, Rob Monster at one point, I was looking through these old DMs the other day, Rob Monster at one point really wanted to have a fireside chat with me and Cantwell that he would moderate.
And I was like, no, I will not do that.
Why?
Because Rob Monster had a conversation with Cantwell.
I was tweeting about the fact that Cantwell was continuously posting about raping me and Rob Monster said, Hillary, You don't have to worry about it.
I had a discussion with Cantwell and I think he's on the road to... I don't remember if it was the road to Damascus.
I don't remember what he said.
Some reference indicating that Cantwell was on his way to finding Jesus.
And I was like, Rob, I gotta be honest with you.
I don't see that happening.
I don't think that's gonna happen.
So in March, Cantwell actually does get banned from Gab.
I'm inclined to think that I hesitate in giving Gab credit for that decision.
My gut feeling is that Cantwell posted something that prompted the FBI to say, Hey Gab, like, could we have the IP address that was posted from?
And that Gab was like, Oh shit, like we better, we better ban this guy.
But if Andrew Torba actually decided after that long of a time that he had gone too far, then that's great.
It's like the only time he's ever done that, but that's fantastic.
So Cantwell is under all this FBI surveillance?
Cantwell was at the time of his banning from Gab the single biggest user, the person with the single most followers on Gab.
I don't know if he had the single most but he was certainly top.
He had more than Andrew Anglin.
He might have been two or three or whatever but like you know my understanding and if someone will challenge this then I'm fine to be corrected but he my understanding was he was the biggest gab user right because he had like the highest this was at the point where gab you could upvote things and it would like give you a score and
if there was ever an indication of just how much gab was like the place to be, if you were a terrible human being, Campbell's score was like 250,000 and like, you know, like a lesser Nazi might only have like 20,000.
So that, I mean, it was right.
Think about how bad a site has to be to be internet shithead central.
And he was the top shit.
Right!
It was bad in that it let Nazis on there, and then it was bad at Nazis because Cantwell was its biggest star.
It's like the worst of the worst.
It's a little like Cantwell is there, Cantwell is the big star.
The biggest single account.
But where I land on this is... Hey, come here.
We've got Chris Kenwell.
Kenwell was so toxic.
To the brand that they banned their single most popular account.
It's a little bit like Twitter dropping Donald Trump, which people kind of want Twitter to do, but they will never ever do for all kinds of reasons.
But Gab actually did it because Cantwell was actually that bad.
Yeah, I'm inclined to think that they did it because they thought they were going to get in trouble, honestly.
Because The post he got- Which clearly they were.
It was obvious.
Sorry, go ahead.
It certainly intuitively sounds right to me, I have to say.
So there were- the walls were kind of closing in for Cantwell.
I mean, the biggest wall that was closing in is the one he didn't know about, right?
Where he thought he was, like, helping law enforcement at this point nail the bull patrol, right?
I'm sure in Cantwell's brain, he was like, God, this is perfect.
By going to law enforcement about this even worse group of neo-Nazis, I'm going to be assuring them of the fact that I'm not a threat.
And he had no idea that he was just handing them stuff about his own crimes, which became hilariously apparent.
He was getting off the phone from them and they were phoning the FBI.
And then the Keene Police Department literally handed him off to the FBI and said, you know what, I think you should be talking to the FBI.
And Cantwell was like, let's do it, and went without a lawyer multiple times.
But the thing he didn't know was closing in on him.
and this is sort of i think what pushed him to the edge is that he's watching you know there were a lot of people being deplatformed but not like so at this point can't well has no youtube he has no facebook he's he has no twitter and by march of 2019 he has no gab and like mines.com had like a brief people were like it'll just we'll just all go to mines but mine sucked because for a variety of reasons you couldn't because mine sucked
mines just sucked right and and gab tim pool deeply invested in mines by the way like He's still pushing his mines.
I think he's the only one.
The only thing I know about Tim Pool is that didn't he used to sell buckets of food?
He did.
That's the only thing I know about him and the hats.
I know he wears a little hat.
He wears a beanie.
He has apparently 40 or 50 of the same beanie that he wears.
Like Mark Zuckerberg with the hoodie.
So Cantwell feels these like walls closing in, not the actual walls that are closing in, but like he's getting harassed.
He, he feels increasingly that the bull patrol is behind it or, or he feels like he can, you know, kill two birds with one stone.
He can kind of like finally get on the good side of law enforcement to like assuage his fears and also, um, make this harassment stop, which I don't think was criminal at this point at all.
You know, I have a fair amount of knowledge about like what, what's criminal in terms of threats and what they were doing to him wasn't nearly as bad as like what he was doing to me.
So, um, so irony of ironies.
It's amazing.
Yeah, exactly.
Right.
So which one, which one gets prosecuted by the FBI?
To be fair, honestly, to be fair, like I actually, and I know there are people that don't believe this.
I actually think that if Cantwell had done to, to me, What he did to to Ben Lambert that he would have been prosecuted but but he was more careful when he when he went after people that he knew would contact law enforcement.
So we get to June of 2019 and by this point the Bull Patrol, you know, it's like a loose affiliation of people, you know, whether whether or not there's no sort of formal membership process, but there was like a pretty Set group of people who had appeared on the podcast and then Paul Nealon, who's who ran for Congress twice in Wisconsin.
There's probably a Paul Nealon episode of like early 2021, by the way.
So.
Oh, good.
I can't wait.
So Paul Nealon had, you know, was sort of Bowl Patrol adjacent, is probably like putting it too lightly.
But he was, he was like a figure.
He was the second guest on the, on the Bowlcast.
Like he was.
He was, and Cantwell was the first.
Yeah, Cantwell was the first, Nealon was the second, and I, like my interpretation is that's when he became radicalized.
Like shortly after that, he was like posting photos of him reading the Culture Critique, and like he went like full-on It's hard to tell with Nealon to what extent he was like that the whole time and holding it back.
There's like a debate in like Janesville, Wisconsin in 2016.
I have not watched a lot of Nealon stuff, but I did watch this.
And at one point he like he refers to how like illegal immigrant children should be treated as enemy combatants and like that seems like a sign to me that like something is you know gone awry in your.
I think there's a difference between the i'm a politician pushing trumpets.
Yes.
right view versus like no i lost my election and so now it's time to pull pick up guns and go like shooting people and i think culture of critique is the thing you know yes but i think neelan attributed his downfall to not just like the establishment but to like the zog you know media that right anyway we we can get into like this this is a more yeah come back for paul neelan that's that's kind of the answer to this uh you know actually don't you shouldn't
you should not um subject yourself to that but i please no but i will say that like neelan of the people You know, in the Bull Patrol who kind of came after me, like Nealon was definitely, of the two people I would not participate in a fireside chat with in the movement, Chris Cantwell is probably number one and Paul Nealon is probably number two.
Sorry, Paul.
And also, Paul Nealon posted some of the threatening videos surrounding my personal harassment.
Yeah, he's not a nice guy.
That's very close-minded and censorious of you, Clary.
Why are you stifling their freedom of speech like that?
No, and I don't even know if I wouldn't.
I might actually just do it, just to see what he would say, to be honest.
With Chip, who was moderator.
No, I would have, like, I would have, like, Nick Fuentes as moderator or Jared Howe.
Actually, Jared Howe would be the fairest source because he would hate both of you.
I don't, yeah, Jared Howe.
I would make him, like, wrap the entire moderation.
So here's the crime, and I'm going to tell you the crime including the stuff we now know about it because it's more interesting.
So Cantwell decides the way to end this is to get Vic Mackey.
Not an unreasonable assumption.
No, not an unreasonable assumption, but clearly also not the way to make things better for himself.
The 4D chess was great, it was just as much Cantwell doing it.
I don't even know what the term is for when you sabotage your freedom and your enemy at the same time by mistake.
I believe the technical term for that is Christopher Cantwell.
It really, it's like... You really can't weld it up.
That's really the... We have a whole verb now.
So, like, the series of just, like, delightful realizations during the course of these proceedings just, like, never, has never ended for me.
So, Cantwell goes to Peach, this woman who has the Doc, so he knows he can't get McMackie.
Cantwell is not the dumbest person in the white nationalist movement, but, like, They don't have a good research team, and they're not good at doxing people, including, you know, their own.
And, and by the way, Vic Mackey had enemies, but they all hated Cantwell too.
So, no one was, no one was gonna help him.
And so, the only sort of button that he has that he can push and put pressure on is this full patrol guy named Cheddar Means.
Cheddar Maine and the Bull Patrol, I mean, took in Cantwell's telling, wind up in this group that Cantwell had on Telegram called Peaceful White Folk, which included like Matt Heimbach, Tom Kaczynski, Cantwell, and like, I don't know, like I'm sure Jared Howe, and then just like a bunch of special other people.
And the Bull Patrol found an invite link to it and they wind up in it.
Cantwell private messages Cheddar Maine and he's like, Very upset that they've infiltrated his chat or whatever and he says like, you know, he says, I'm going to come fuck your wife.
And then he says, like, you have to give me Vic Mackey.
It's your only out.
And then he says that he's going to potentially have one of his incel listeners come and fuck Cheddar Maine's wife.
And then he, and he references that he's going to fuck Cheddar Maine's wife in front of the children.
And at the same time, he is getting from Peach these photos of Cheddar Main's wife and children.
And he posts, he sends them to Cheddar Main.
And he sends, you know, he shows Cheddar Main that he has his address.
And so there are these, you know, the screenshots end up coming out at trial use.
You can see, like, Cheddar Mane's side and Chris Cantwell's side.
And that is the crime.
Just to be clear, the screenshots of this came out long before Cantwell was actually... We'll get to that.
They come out the next day.
So Cheddar Mane, and we know this now, Cheddar Mane...
The first person Cheddar Main calls is Paul Nealon.
And they end up being posted on Paul Nealon's Telegram.
Paul Nealon says at trial, I'm putting this in the category of things I don't believe, that there, like, may have been multiple admins for his Telegram channel.
If one of them is Paul Nealon and the other one is like his imaginary friend, I will believe that, but I find it hard to believe that otherwise, but the screenshots get posted.
The screenshots of this conversation are redacted using like a telegram sticker of Chris Cantwell nude.
A telegram sticker of, like, James Mason and, like, a couple other telegram stickers.
So they're redacted to sort of protect Lambert's identity while also indicating to the wider movement overall, like, hey, you want to see how much of a dick Chris Cantwell is?
And everyone's kind of, like, nodding their heads, like, yeah, we knew that.
Illegal Arian, who's, like, a... whose name I believe is, like, Mark Reardon, also tweets them.
They're actually... that tweet is still up, which I find bizarre.
Lots of different ways, but- I first- I first found them on Pat Exberg's Twitter, actually, which, uh, you know- You know TRS is, like, not my area.
Right.
No, Paddington Square is Goitok.
Oh, Goitok.
Also not my area, although I have listened to the one Paul Neil and Pat Little episode.
Oh, don't worry.
Oh, don't worry.
There's probably an entire IDSG episode just digging into that podcast.
Oh, that episode is just priceless.
It might be the single greatest Nazi podcast episode ever recorded.
It actually, it actually, it might be.
I mean, greatest is not the adjective I would use, but like, it's something.
So Cantwell is in communication at this point with both the FBI and Keene law enforcement, or he's about to be in communication with the FBI.
I can't quite remember the like, and, and Cantwell goes and tells law enforcement that he's done this.
You know, I don't know that he, like, understood that it was a crime.
I guess he went down this, like, very long rabbit hole of doing, like, legal research on Google and, as, of course, would be the case, comes up with the wrong crime that he thinks he's committed.
But he's, like, it's hard to understand what he was thinking.
But he's talking to the FBI and, you know, over the course of that summer.
In the meantime, like, Lambert actually doesn't get doxxed, and the FBI continues to meet with Cantwell.
They're investigating this, but, like, he thinks he's meeting with them because they're, like, the FBI and Cantwell are going after Bowl Patrol together, which is funny.
Yeah, I was actually about to jump in to ask you to clarify that.
He actually thinks that he's working with the FBI.
Like working for the FBI?
Yes. 100%.
And in reality, what he's doing is confessing to federal crimes.
Not only that, but in a long tradition of selling out every woman who's ever slept with him, he hands Caitlin Frye over to the FBI, and they show up at her house.
He explains, like, oh, well, I got this dox from this woman I was dating, and then the FBI shows up at her house.
He also records a phone call that he has with Caitlin Frye where he discusses the crime and gives this recording to the FBI.
So the FBI then shows up at Ben Lambert's workplace, not having gotten the name Ben Lambert from Cantwell.
So in the course of all of this cooperation with the FBI, Cantwell makes what I think is a pretty fatal mistake if you're talking to the FBI, which is he lies and says that he actually doesn't have the screenshots of what he did, of these threats.
And of course like fast forward a few months and when they like break down his door and take all of his stuff they find like several versions of the screenshots on his phone or on his hard drive or something like that so he's being open with them to a point and he starts to get worried at a certain point in the fall he's kind of like am I under investigation but clearly not worried enough to not do what he does next.
The FBI meanwhile shows up at Lambert's workplace where they well they show up at his house first and then at his workplace where they find him wearing A Bull Patrol sweatshirt.
And I think they basically are like, we are investigating this.
Like, you may not have reported it, but we're investigating it.
And Cantwell obviously does not know that.
And fast forward, I think it's within days of the FBI showing up at Ben Lambert's house, the Joker movie is coming out.
And Cantwell, in like his infinite wisdom, decides to post on Telegram Daniel, you may have the exact post.
I don't have it in front of me.
Something along the lines of, like, I'm at the Joker and I have a gun.
I'm at the Joker movie and I have a gun.
I don't know the exact words, but yeah, no.
I think that actually might be the exact words.
This is at, like, 10.30 on, like, a Friday night.
Right.
And I might have received this screenshot from like 17 different people before I woke up the next morning.
It was funny to hear at trial that like an FBI agent in Seattle sent it to the Keene Police Department.
That will just show you how many people across the country are watching this and are like, Yeah this is a good one to send along.
I think within minutes this kind of went out.
This is my favorite part of this whole thing.
So you know he's been under investigation now for a year and the FBI is dealing with actually worrying about someone going into movie theater and shooting people and Cantwell is posting this.
So the Keene Police Department shows up at the movie theater.
They pause the movie for the audience and they find Cantwell alone in the movie theater with like a loaded 380.
He was alone.
There was no one else in the movie here.
No, he was just alone watching the movie.
And the best part, this really is the, maybe my favorite part of the whole thing that after this happens, Cantwell writes a letter to the Keene police department, which I don't have, but I will get someday somehow.
We will read it on this podcast one day.
He offers the Keaton Police Department a key to his house just to have just to show like how how much of a great citizen he is.
This guy who like posted something so incredibly dumb that they had to like stop a movie and this is like right after there had been like actual threats about people shooting and he writes this letter about how much he loves law enforcement and he asks The Keene Police Surgeon to please forward it to all the members of the Keene Police Department.
Anyway, instead of doing that, the Keene Police Department in January assists in like a 4 a.m.
raid of Cantwell's house where they break down the door.
Molly Conger claims that Cantwell is like unclothed and I like trust everything Molly says.
The only thing I can find is that he definitely wasn't wearing pants.
And he was playing a video game and he has since done like a jail call to Jared Howe where he claims that he only was relieved when he found out from police, I guess he asked police if he was being sent to Guantanamo, which like, I just can't.
Yes, you and 23 other terrorists who have been there for 15 years.
That's what Guantanamo Bay is to you.
Yeah, he sort of indicates that once he realized it was just the FBI, he was relieved, which doesn't even really make that much sense to me.
I think he thought it was the CIA.
If you know, not to... He's arraigned that day!
You're killing me!
Not to knock on you, Hilary, but if there's anything you know about Cantwell, it's he drastically overstates his own importance.
Oh, I just have to say that one of my favorite moments of Jared Howe, and like there's really, there are a few things that I enjoy less than listening to Jared Howe, but this might be the exception.
Agreed, agreed.
Jared Howe discussing
How Cantwell was was arrested at that specific time and has been held ever since because the like deep state was so concerned about his ability to sway the election that they felt as though their country had to be like I can't like it was at the moment that I heard that that I was like wait maybe like maybe I'm wrong and maybe Jared Howe is like secretly
Just fucking with all of us, right?
And, like, thinks this is a joke because there's no way.
Antifa hero.
Just fucking around with Christopher Cantwell for years, you know.
Deep Antifa operative.
I have a feeling you and I would know about it if it were true.
So, you know, it's fine.
Anyway, so he gets arrested.
Yes, it rained that day.
And I went.
Because I live close enough to go and I really do enjoy like federal courtroom drama and I've covered over the other trials and I did not go with the intention of covering it then.
And the arraignment was pretty uneventful.
He had some supporters show up, like a couple, and then he had a detention hearing in February, which was amazing.
One of the things that people often forget is, at the trial, none of the sort of outside stuff that we know about Cantwell, none of the stuff from Unite the Right, none of his
Boofing like a lot of that stuff like can't come into the trial because it it doesn't it's not specifically about the crime that he's charged with oh and the crime he was charged with was um originally it was extortionate threats and threats um and then they later added cyber stalking um which he actually was not convicted of he was convicted of two of the three counts there was sort of like a couple changes and a superseding indictment later but that's just not really that important to the final outcome but
And actually within the realm of like the US legal system bring in unite the right in his like kind of previous statements has nothing to do with the actual threats against.
No, but at the detention hearing, they can bring all that stuff in.
But it makes sense that for his actual trial, that's actually the system working as it's intended?
Totally.
No, they weren't allowed to mention the word Charlottesville at the trial.
Nothing came in about that.
But at the detention hearing, this was when I realized that this would be, if it went to trial, the greatest trial in the history of the world.
Um, they, you know, you can always tell they're, like, about to play audio, and I was like, oh, like, I wonder which episode they're gonna play.
And I look up at the screen, and they're playing the Boofing Meth Bitchute compilation, and I was like, holy shit.
Like, this is like all of my dreams.
Like, I couldn't, it was amazing.
They played like four minutes of it.
This is just like in a courtroom in February with like, there was never a big audience.
There were maybe like a couple of reporters, a couple of local reporters there, and two or three sort of like keen people that Cantwell remains friendly with.
And so he has been held.
One of the most beautiful ironies of this is that the facility where he's being held, the Federal Bureau of Prisons doesn't have its own facility in New Hampshire, but it basically contracts with a county facility.
So Cantwell is actually being held at a facility that doubles as an ICE detention facility, which I think is meant to be perfect.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
And he's been there, he remains there now.
He won't be sentenced until early January, and that's only if that doesn't change.
So he's supposed to go to trial originally in March, and then the pandemic hits, which I can't imagine Jared wouldn't have a theory about maybe the pandemic hit because Cantwell was arrested.
We've cracked it.
That's the secret behind planned evidence.
It's delayed a month, and then it's delayed a month, and then it's delayed a month, and then it's delayed a month.
And then there's a superseding indictment in the summer that adds a charge.
And then what happens, amazingly, is that in very early July, I believe, maybe July 7th, Vic Mackey gets doxed.
Not by The anonymous collective.
anyone's wife just like the old-fashioned way by a group of of anti-fascists i forget what the name of the blog is but the uh anonymous collective yeah so vick mackie gets doxed we'll link to that in the show notes yeah doing zero part to can't well like played no there's nothing yeah no can't well can't play no role and if anything you got in the way of it ultimately yeah i mean look you
you have to make an argument that and this is this is where this whole thing gets a little bit bizarre but but sorry i think we've gone past that already no but if you think about it i mean from my perspective right the bull patrols pranks i I'm not a supporter of the Bull Patrol itself, but what they did, you know, the only thing they prevented Cantwell from doing was harassing other people and radicalizing
people you know with his podcast so this was not a terrible thing for people that hated Cantwell to sort of watch him get a taste of of his own medicine I'm not I'm not suggesting that all of the the content they produced is stuff that I approve of but some of it was pretty hilarious um and some of it was like hilarious you know minus a few words that I wouldn't have used but um well it's actually Cantwell is always funny right no
but I mean like there's like a song there there there are some musical pieces created that I will admit I have listened to like multiple times and enjoy There's one in particular, but it's pretty amazing to me the extent to which he just could not laugh at himself.
He did all of the things that you tell someone don't do unless you want this to get worse.
Yeah, absolutely.
Freaking out, you know, he just could not take it.
And for someone who's spent so much of their life messing with people, that was kind of amazing to watch.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause he really is the archetypal bully that goes around the playground hitting people.
And then somebody finally hits back and it's like, Oh, but like they weren't hitting him nearly the way he was hitting other people.
Right.
I mean, they weren't threatening to rape his family member.
I mean, You know there's no equivalent but what they really did was make his they made him unable to take calls because they just kind of filled all of his like call slots on his podcast as a podcast producer.
I understand that like you do a certain amount of work to you know i have to fill a certain amount of time i have to do a certain amount of thing to you to make a show.
And I can't well does the kind of the easiest thing possible of I've got a bunch of news articles and then I can just take calls and if I get enough calls come in I don't have to like do as much work.
And if you can't take calls and suddenly he has to three to four times more work so yeah but the piece of this is like.
You're going on the assumption that all of the pranks that he got during this period of time were from Volcast and my hunch is the number of people that hated Cantwell is numbers in the thousands, you know, who hate him actively.
Sure.
And I find it hard to believe that other people weren't joining in on this.
Now, Cantwell attributed it all to Bolt Patrol, but I think to suggest that it was that everything bad happening to Cantwell was just the result of them, I just don't buy that.
I mean, I get so many DMs from people who hate him, who are in the movement and who are out of the movement.
Well, I think the Bolt Patrol, I mean, I think we can kind of split the difference here and like not I'm not disagreeing with you on the saying like bull patrol clearly like encourage this and so if like a bunch of people then sort of did the same thing.
It kind of fits into the same general pattern right yeah like a bowl patrol led mob.
Right.
Which is, which is ultimately the way that, I mean, in 2016, this is, this is very standard kind of alt-right behavior, which Chris Cantwell, as you say, would have encouraged back in his day, except when it's, you know, generated against him, then he thinks it's harassment, and he goes to the FBI and whines about it, cries about it, we might say.
Yeah, and I think it was like, the FBI agent who testified at the trial, Was sort of trying to describe the amount of communication.
And I, I think he said, like, I don't think, I don't think he used the word that they were flooded, but he was like describing the voluminous amount of information that Cantwell was just emailing them all kinds of stuff, like a data dump from, from Cantwell.
This was not, not as though Cantwell was not doing this because he thought the bull patrol was going too far.
He was doing this because the bull patrol was harassing him.
And I think the FBI saw right through that.
I think he thought he could sort of pull a fast one over the FBI and it did not work.
So the trial was bizarre for a multitude of reasons, but it was first of all, it was taking place during the pandemic.
Right.
And, and they were really strict.
I don't know if you want me to go right into the trial, but.
No, no, please.
Well, I feel like, I feel like the, the thing that we should highlight here is, Something that didn't come out in your reporting was that you had personal security.
I did.
To protect you during the trial.
So I'm trying to skip over what happened.
There were a lot of threats.
We're recording this, and you and I have both had various levels of threat from neo-Nazis, right?
And it's a different space, and there's a complicated conversation around that, but we're recording this on October 11th of 2020.
And yesterday, as we're recording, there was a member of a security team, Protecting a local news reporter or is kind of a team of reporters in Denver who apparently shot and killed a fucking Nazi who was doing some shit and
We can i think that i don't know the details on that and so i don't pass judgment on like exactly what is a self-defense or whatever but basically a pickerton killed a nazi and in my opinion that's a nazi killing a nazi and another name and so i'm not really gonna sit here and have like a long conversation about it.
The far right is pushing this as, like, he was an Antifa supporter because apparently this guy, like, supported Bernie at some point in the past, et cetera, et cetera.
But I think that it is worth noting... Yeah, because that's the same thing.
Yeah.
Well done.
Right?
It is worth noting, just for you, Hillary, that journalists covering this stuff are often threatened, both online and in person, with physical violence.
And so...
One thing that I didn't know until we started talking about it was you didn't have personal security team in and out.
And apparently your personal security did not actually murder any Nazis.
And so maybe... Not that I know of.
Well, or maybe they will in the future.
Who knows, you know?
I think we need to back up a little, like a second here, because I mean, I don't have any reason to ascribe any fascist views.
The security team that that was hired to So hard for me to even say.
It was hired to protect me.
They were not former law enforcement or current law enforcement.
Sure.
And so, you know, I don't want to describe them in any or compare them in any way, but they were, they were armed.
And, uh, yeah, so I had sort of like the threats I was getting had actually like really slowed down by the time Cantwell got arrested.
And then I, I got a series of threats that were like pretty disturbing leading up to the trial, including some like pretty specific ones of like things that would happen if I covered it.
And then this was going to be sort of like in, you know, there, there's another neo-Nazi group that started like taking pictures of me in public and, and posting them on Twitter and, you know, and.
Yeah, I mean, anyway, so Nick Martin, who runs The Informant, you know, I really had no intention of covering this.
I mean, I was sort of going to maybe try to go, but I was also maybe not going to try to go.
And Nick reached out to me like early to mid-September, like 10 days before the trial was supposed to start, and asked if I wanted to cover it.
And I sort of gave him a sense of these threats, because I felt like I had to.
And he made the decision that, you know, I think for his comfort level, and certainly for mine, it helped too.
I don't generally put myself in a physical place where that group of people will know where I'm going to be, and this was certainly going to have done that.
So I like drove to a separate location in the morning and they would drive me in like different vehicles and you know, it was bizarre, but you know, I think, I think it gave us both peace of mind and um, yeah.
And I was not only was I covering it, but I ended up being the only reporter there for the majority of the trial.
And so there was a lot of attention.
Um, and I, you know, my, Luckily, I couldn't have my phone during the trial, which was kind of nice, because when I finally finished and looked at my message requests on Twitter, I'm glad I didn't see them during it.
I think I'd feel really differently going into a trial now, having seen the story from, was it last night?
God, it seems like the days just flow together, but it never actually occurred to me that I should be concerned about the chance of Of my security team shooting one of these guys.
So I'm kind of glad I didn't have to have to consider that.
But yeah, I mean, the trial was like it was pretty it was not to be in the same room as Cantwell in some ways for me, not not like scary nuts, but just wild.
And, you know, there was a day of the trial where it was Ben Lambert, who's Cheddar Maine, who I've spoken to at some length at this point.
And by this point, I was not worried about About him doing anything to me or anything like that at least not I mean, I suppose in the back of your head.
There's always like a little bit of wondering but but it was Paul Nealon and Cantwell and I and and Ben Lambert and then like a jury a judge and like a bunch of law enforcement people in in a courthouse together and that was it there was no one else in the courthouse, you know, it was
And now that I think was really surreal that's that's surreal especially with given your experience of being harassed by these people for so long like the fact that you're the single one sitting there covering this and you're surrounded by like fucking cops like the legal apparatus and then like a bunch of Nazis who have threatened you I mean you know like.
I don't know.
Like, how did that, how did that feel?
The being surrounded by cops part.
I mean, I, I, I'm, I'm in a position of privilege to not feel, I don't feel threatened by, by being surrounded by people in law enforcement in that setting at all.
And I didn't feel like I wasn't concerned that like Paul Nealon was going to like jump off of the witness stand and do anything to me.
In fact, So Lambert, Lambert testified.
And by that point I had spoken to him a lot.
I didn't speak to him until like a couple of days before the trial.
He had reached out to me on Twitter and said, this is Cheddar Maine.
And I was like, no, it's not.
And didn't reply, um, months before.
Um, and then, and then reached out again.
And so I had talked to him.
Nealon, I didn't come away from it feeling like I knew Nealon any better.
He was, And I don't know how much of this was sort of like affect, but he looked kind of like smarmy and like smirking and you know, it, it didn't feel, it's really hard to tell.
He came with a lawyer and his testimony was brief and you got the sense that like, you definitely wanted to like punch him in the face.
But beyond that, I didn't get like a, I didn't feel like I got to know who he is as a person any better.
Ben Lambert, I would say.
I think it is changed from the from this experience now whether that will mean Changed in a way that really separates him from the movement in the long term I I'm like not in a position to say and I don't think He gave you a statement which was you know, yeah, I've left the movement.
I feel terrible about all my things that I said it's terrible which You can read as either opportunistic or honest, and I think ultimately, in the end, time will tell on that.
I don't think we need to draw a conclusion on that.
If Ben Lambert wants to actually reform and go into the distance and never be seen again in public talking about politics, that's fine with me.
We can kind of go from there.
Yeah, I will just say there's nothing since then that has led me to believe that that was completely bullshit, but certainly like you can't say much more than, you know, it is what it is for now.
And like, yeah, I don't know.
I did not get the sense that Nealon was approached very late by the FBI in this.
He was not interviewed until the beginning of September.
And he promptly cleared out almost all of the posts in his Telegram group, which he now sort of alludes to the fact that, like, it may have been run by multiple people.
Which might be the most genius thing ever uttered on the stand, because I'm not sure how you would prove that it wasn't.
And if it was, then you can't sort of pin anything on him.
If he was lying, it's fine.
And they can determine that, then I would say it's probably not the most genius thing to have said on the stand.
But, um, but Andrew Kassar... It's Nealon being Nealon, right?
You know, so, you know.
Yeah, and it felt like kind of a cuck move, but it might be a smart cuck move, right?
One of the things that I think was interesting that came out was that Andrew Kassar, so there were, there were a lot of interesting things, but the number of Bull Patrol people who, it wasn't just Nealon, you know, these are guys who've pretty consistently posted Or reposted content to the effect of, like, kill cops or don't talk to the police.
And, as it turns out, and I don't think this will come as a surprise to people who follow the movement, none of them, upon having been reached out to by the police, killed anyone.
And they all talked.
So, you know, I think that's indicative of sort of, like, a bigger theme of, like, when push comes to shove, that most of these guys will just, like, Flip on their friends and talk to the police.
But notably, Andrew Kassar as Vic Mackey, the case agent who testified, testified that they very much wanted to interview him and were unable to due to trying to coordinate between multiple FBI offices and headquarters, which is interesting for a lot of different reasons.
And I don't know much more than that.
But if multiple FBI offices and headquarters have to sort of Give the okay to you being interviewed.
You know, I'm not sure exactly what that says and it may, it may not say much more than that, but, um, we may, we may not have heard the last on, on Andrew Cazares and I don't, who knows?
Yeah, no, I think there's some more stories.
Well, yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure there's, I'm sure there is some more story to tell.
And then, and I don't know why this came as a surprise to me during the trial, but it did.
Cantwell took the stand in his own defense, which was exactly what you would imagine if you were going to write a screenplay of what it would be like for Chris Cantwell to be on the stand.
So you have Ben Lambert testify and Nealon and, you know, eventually you have a couple other people testify for the government, police officers and FBI.
And then, you know, the government rests their case.
And this is sort of like up until this point, you never know.
Like the defense does not ever have to say what they're going to do or who they're going to call as witnesses.
And they don't have to decide until the government rests.
And so defendants never testify.
And I think I was sort of going on the assumption that Kentwell actually had had two, you know, he had two attorneys from the federal defender's office.
Ironically, one of them is someone who I've known for a very long time, which Cantwell had to be made aware of, which is another just bizarre twist in this whole thing.
Because he had to because I think he if he if he had wanted to I think he could have said like no I don't want this guy who knows Hillary to represent me but because because he has threatened you like that's the yeah I did not speak to this guy throughout the course of you know from the arrest until well I still haven't but like so anyway Cantwell takes the stand and he's the only witness for the defense
And it's everything that if I told you six months ago, imagine Cantwell taking the stand, you would go off and sort of... It's a Radical Agenda episode with no calls and no news stories.
It's just... Sort of.
It's like the Radical Agenda plus just a ton of crying.
And I say that, I'm the one person who will just say up front that I think that One of the better things that Cantwell has ever done, and one of the more honest things he's ever done, is cry.
I don't think that there's anything wrong with that.
Cantwell comes out of the Manosphere, to a certain degree.
He wrote for a voice for men.
All that has been scrubbed from the internet.
Very little of that remains.
Oh no, I've read it, yeah.
But he comes out of that, like, that domain, right?
He comes out of this, like, thing of, like, anti-feminist, like, defending, like, toxic, against toxic masculinity.
So he embraces this kind of toxic masculinity.
And yet he cries.
He's known as the crying Nazi.
But when he is confronted with, like, actual consequences for his actions, when he is confronted with, he breaks down in tears.
And actually, Not to speak for you or anything but this speaks to the fundamental thing of like this is what can't well doesn't.
Get like this is the fundamental thing that like sort of the barrier between like can't well as a human being and can't was sort of a political right is that.
When he cried in that famous crying Nazi video, he cried because he feared being killed by police who were going to come after him for his activity in the Unite the Right riot.
But he doesn't extend that to all the African American people who fear being killed by police at random traffic stops because that doesn't fit his political ideology.
He doesn't extend it to anyone though, Daniel.
I think it's even beyond that.
It's only about him.
Right right it's only it's only about his own like kind of personal feelings around you know it's all about can't well i agree but if he were to.
Embrace that empathy and understand that like maybe it's okay to cry maybe it's okay to feel this.
More fundamentally you know yes chris you have emotions and you are capable of feeling fear and suffering other people have that too.
You know that's not just you.
Yeah which which entails you know moral obligations to those people on your part you know just get that in.
Yeah and the interesting thing was like so so ben lambert cried too and ben lambert cried at a very specific moment and he cried.
You know and and this is not this is not to say that ben lambert i mean ben lambert was not on trial and that's why you know we're not talking in detail about sort of like.
Everything that bull patrol did that was wrong but ben lambert cried.
In a moment that very much felt as though he was realizing how much he had fucked up his life and was feeling bad for himself and bad for his family at having done that.
Cantwell cried about telegram stickers that were made that were mean of him.
About, you know, I thought the police were there to help me and it turns out they were after me all along.
He cried at these things that it would only be acceptable for him to have cried at if he hadn't been doing this shit to everyone forever.
Right.
And there was no recognition.
He just has no capability of seeing himself for who he is and sort of taking any responsibility for that.
But he was also like very much, like to the extent it was like a Radical Agenda episode, he was sort of doing this like shtick with the jury of sort of like, uh, I mean at one point he starts trying to, for no, by the way, the rule when you're being questioned on the stand is you just are answering the question that was asked, right?
Right.
No, like Cantwell couldn't shut up.
At one point he turns to the jury, like physically turns to the jury, and he's Sort of suggests that he's about to explain to them what a podcast is which is bizarre thing to do And then starts talking about like RSS feeds and like the judge had to like cut him off at certain points And he would just be like I don't know what your client is talking about and Then he says to the jury he decides to describe telegram to the jury No one asked him to do that and he says to the jury.
It's like a telephone everything Everyone has it.
And it's like, what are you talking about?
Like, he's just so out of touch with reality.
But the government really, like, used his testimony against him.
I mean, at one point he says to the jury, for no apparent reason, that they might hear him use the word Photoshop as a verb.
Like, he just throws that out there.
He never actually did use Photoshop as a verb.
But when the government's cross-examining him, they pick that part out, and it's a female prosecutor, and she says to Cantwell, you know, I noticed that you told the jury that you might use Photoshop as a verb.
And she says, you're someone who really cares about language, aren't you?
And he's like, yes, you know, language is a beautiful art form, or some nonsense like that.
And she says, You know, you, so you really care about it.
He's like, yeah.
And she says, and you wrote that you're going to fuck this guy's wife in front of his kids.
In essence saying like you had time and they could, they showed that he had time in between, you know, telegram messages are timestamped and they showed, you know, you had 31 minutes to think about what you were going to say and you care about language and this is what you chose to write.
You did this to yourself.
But the craziest part, he writes that to have a specific point of view.
And so then when he comes back later, he goes like, well, she might have consensually said, I will fuck you in front of your children.
By the way, the defense attorney has said that at various, the defense attorney said that at the initial detention hearing.
And I thought I was going to lose my mind.
Well it's very clear like how and can't well have been saying that like on like how has been pushing that like many many many times on the so to speak spied cast just threatened to fuck.
Ben lambert's wife it would not make me as nauseous but that's not what he did he said he was gonna fuck.
the wife in front of the kids and so to suggest that that's consensual is to suggest that the wife would first of all want to fuck christopher can't well which is preposterous and second of all would want to fuck him in front of her own children which is disgusting and horrifying and this was the part where the prosecutor showing
can't well the pictures of you know this like lovely looking woman and her very young children and says have you ever met her we Cantwell says, no.
Have you ever met her kids?
No.
How old do you think they are?
And if you just paused it right there and I said, Daniel, what are the 500,000 different options you could say here that, you know, would be acceptable and you would list them for me.
Cantwell says, I shit you not.
Too young to watch that shit.
Like, suggesting, first of all, that there's like an age where you get to, as a child, where you're old enough to watch your mother.
Once you're 18, you can watch.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it was like, there's no, like, exchange of dialogue that more illustrates why Prisons can exist if solely for the purpose of housing him in my mind.
That's really telling that exchange, I think.
Yes.
Like, you know, not to horn in on this, but the thing about in front of your kids, that is just hammering home the fact that obviously what he's talking about is You know, obviously the woman doesn't come into it.
She's just like a tool in this that he's using to threaten this guy.
But what he's threatening to do is to rape this woman.
In front of her kids.
Yeah, well that's like, as I say, that rhetorical flourish from this guy that cares so much about language.
That's what's hammering that home.
And then the next thing that you just said that's fascinating that response cause like oh too young to watch that that implies like he thinks if he shows if he shows contrition up there it makes a sort of rueful face and kind of goes yeah i know like everything's gonna be fine again it's just it's just a naughty child on the plane.
Play ruffle on the stand it'll be fine everybody will go well you know boys will be boys didn't come across as roof like came across as like.
And this is the other piece of this which is he's asked at certain points by the prosecutor to read out loud the threats that he sent.
Of course.
And one would argue that the best thing to do would be to read them in a way that indicates that you realize how fucked up the thing that you said is.
But instead, he puts on like, yeah, so I'm going to fuck you.
You know what I mean?
You're kidding.
No!
Oh my God!
Because of course he does, because he's Chris Cantwell!
Like, he does an imitation of himself saying it.
He's proud of his work.
Pardon me for clinging to some, you know, tattered shreds of belief that human beings can have self-awareness.
Jesus.
No, I mean, it's, it's like, it's mind boggling.
So anyway, you know, right before the trial, I had actually been like, all right, I'm going to listen to this 2016 recording.
And there are like, too many horrifying parts of this recording to go into detail on.
But and this is in the last piece I wrote, but there's this one part where, where Cantwell sort of like says this thing that I feel like is the only thing that you really need to know about him.
And he says that he, that he's kind of going back and forth between these two, these two ways of looking at his life.
And the two ways are, I mean, I forget the exact quote, but it's like, am I the greatest person who's ever lived, or am I a piece of shit who should shoot myself?
And I think that like...
I don't think that he knows how bizarre it is to look at yourself as those being the only two options, right?
If you're considering that you might be the biggest piece of shit, then you should probably rule out that you're the greatest person.
You know what I mean?
The two options should be, I'm a really shitty person, but I shouldn't kill myself, and I'm a really shitty person and I should kill myself.
Those two options make sense.
But the two options that he came up with don't make sense together.
I feel like there's a perspective that he kind of gives for himself is I'm way off the political spectrum of like normal people.
And so either I'm really, really right or really, really wrong, right?
Like, kind of abstracting that from all the other bullshit that's around this, right?
And so on that level, I sort of understand, like, you know, you're either... you know that everybody hates you, and either you're really, really right or really, really wrong.
But, um... I think, deep down, he knows that he is the latter.
Not that I'm saying he should kill himself, but I think he knows that he's really, really wrong.
And I think it's a little bit like, it's like a little kid having a tantrum and they know that, they know that it's going to end with them getting in trouble and they're going to have to apologize.
But they're not, but they're like, I'm not going to give in.
Cantwell, Cantwell has dug himself into a hole both by like his need for publicity and his like just complete stupidity that, that like there really isn't a way out of.
And the only way out is just by going more in.
I think he thought there might be a way out by becoming a helpful pseudo-FBI agent, but that didn't work.
That's another thing that jumps out to me is like this, he seems to show this desperate need for approval, like this running around after the cops, you know, like, oh, can I, can I, can I help you guys?
Can I be one of you?
And as a person who was previously like, who literally like advocated, like laughed about and advocated the murder of police officers.
Those two things to me actually make perfect sense together because Cantwell's There actually is complete continuity throughout that, right?
Like, the only reason Cantwell ever decided in the first place that he didn't like cops was because he felt as though something unfair had happened to him as the result of police, right?
He, like, fell asleep at the wheel and got nailed for drunk driving and thought that he had been treated unfairly and he turned that into, like, Yeah.
Cops are the worst.
He never actually thought cops were the worst.
He thought he had been treated unfairly by cops.
He'd been rejected by cops.
Right.
And so it sort of seems like this big flip-flop, but it's really not.
The continuity is Cantwell thinking about himself and being incapable of thinking about anyone else.
And that flows quite nicely into, like, Vic Mackey's being mean to me.
I'm going to go to the cops.
And then he gets burned again because he can't imagine a scenario in which they wouldn't take his side.
You know, like, it's not this big change.
I mean, I think at the heart of Cantwell is not a Nazi.
It's just, like, not that he isn't one.
But that, to me, is not his core.
His core is just, like, complete, like, self-hatred and, like, Just self-sabotage that he's just been doing too long to get out of it.
Like, I just don't think there's a way out of it.
And that long predates his entrance into the space.
Like, if you look at his long history within the libertarian movement, he kind of comes in and then, like, somebody challenges him, and he threatens their life, and he shows up at their place with a gun, and then... Right, he was never really libertarian.
Well, I mean, he's... I think the political... He moved to Keene because he couldn't get a gun in New York.
He was a libertarian in the sense of, at that specific moment in time, Cantwell will seek out whatever ideology he thinks will best serve the fucked up position that he's in because he does stupid shit!
And like, honestly, he fucked up and got deplatformed off of Facebook really early on.
And so he became a Nazi because, like, the Jews must have done it to him.
Like, you know, I mean, I think that is the common theme, right?
He thought that by becoming really helpful to the cops, his life would get better.
He'd become really helpful to the cops.
Yeah, I mean, there's also the other charge in this trial was that it wasn't just that he threatened Ben Lambert's wife with rape, but that he threatened to expose them to CPS.
Yeah.
And he actually did.
Which seems to be...
And he actually did it.
And he actually did.
And he played the call, which was amazing.
He says on the phone call to CPS, I'm really just doing this to make this guy uncomfortable.
Which is like, again...
I hope that audio comes out.
I hope that audio comes out.
It was an exhibit at trial.
I don't I think I think the exhibits have been sealed because of because the identity because because Lambert's wife is a is a victim and there's no indication that she's had any role in the movement or that she was even aware of the extent of her husband's you know or aware at all of his sort of
You know I I can't imagine she wasn't aware of some of it But there's no indication that she was sort of aware of like the bull patrol stuff or that she played any role in that and so I mean these are pictures of like very young children and so Side of that the other side of that is
And I want to put this in the episode specifically because this is the angle that Jared Howe has been pushing and that Chris Cantwell has been pushing, is that like, oh, I'm going to go fuck your wife, is something that you hear on Xbox Live from 13 year olds all day every day.
And so they just sort of like diminish it as like, this is just like bullshit online rhetoric.
But like, Chris Cantwell was deliberately targeting You and I know this.
Everyone who listens to this knows this.
But also, he didn't do it publicly.
This is the important thing.
When Cantwell would post about doing something to me, he was doing it for his audience.
Now, I'm not suggesting that that didn't put me in some element of danger, but he was doing it for his audience.
There were so many things about this that were different.
First of all, he indicated To Benjamin Lambert that he knew where they lived.
He posted their street address, not the street number, but the street and the photos on his telegram group He, he posted this stuff privately to Ben.
This was not for an audience.
Like, I know enough about what these guys say about each other to know that, that generally people hold back from posting about people's family members.
And I don't think I have ever seen someone post photos of someone else's small children in this world, like ever.
This was a different, a totally different ballgame.
That's the radical agenda, right?
You know?
You just go further and further.
I think he thought it would work.
I honestly think that he thought... No, no, no.
I agree with you.
He would get what he wanted.
And that's really what he was charged with.
Really what he was charged with was not the photos or the, you know, I'm gonna fuck your wife.
He was charged with You have an out.
If you give me Vic Mackey, I won't do this.
But if you don't, I will.
And the CPS thing became important because he actually did it.
Right, exactly.
And that's the thing that I wanted to clarify, is that Jared Howell pretends like, oh yeah, this is all just X Plus Live rhetoric.
Even if you were to grant them that like it's beyond that it's far beyond that because he actually did call cps and actually did like leave a rambling bullshit message with a completely clueless person who has no understanding it wasn't a message he spoke to a person like he was right yeah yeah the hotline talking to a person um i i i would love to listen to all this audio frankly like the
The last bit of audio, I would be happy to never listen to a Christopher Cantwell podcast again.
I will listen to him talk to government bureaucrats who have no idea who he is about the various things that he has with the Paw Patrol.
I will listen to that all day.
It's pretty short and it's not it's not I mean I will say like just another funny sort of like aside from the trial was That they played like these some of these prank calls and there's this moment if you've ever listened like I know there are people who listen to this podcast who have listened to sort of like bowl cast stuff and a lot of it is like layered deep inside jokes and you know pretending to be different people.
There's this one part the jury was actually out of the room and they were sort of going back and forth about like which prank calls were going to be allowed in.
And I forget who's explaining it, but somehow there's an explanation of like, one of these prank calls is one of the members of the Bull Patrol pretending to be, not just pretending to be a guy named Thieves or Fevs, but pretending to be someone else who's pretending to be Fevs.
And the judge, the look on the judge's face is just like, what the fuck are you guys talking about?
And they start playing.
So the judge says, all right, let me hear this compilation of prank calls that you want to play.
And they start playing a compilation of Bull Patrol prank calls to Cantwell, which is like, It's literally like one person like screaming a racial slur at Cantwell in what's meant to be like the voice of like an innocent.
Right.
It's like nonsensical.
And naming Emily Gorsinsky for obvious reasons.
No, they don't even, no, it's not even like, you can't even make that much out, Daniel.
Like it's way crazier than that.
And the judge goes like, The judge turns to his court reporter and he's like, I'm not going to make her transcribe this gobbledygook.
Like he says, he says you can play 30 seconds of it.
They want it to play like nine minutes or something.
And, and, and the look on the jurors faces, it's literally Cantwell screaming at someone for their Skype being on like the wrong setting.
And it's like, it does nothing for the defense's case.
It's just like, It's literally just like Bull Patrol prank calls being played in federal court, which is just, I mean, you just couldn't make it up.
It's like amazing.
I've long considered putting together a compilation of just Cantwell yelling at Skype, to be fair.
You know, anyway, that's what this was.
Yeah.
Anyway, then they deliberated and he's guilty of two of the charges.
Yeah.
And he's facing what, like 22 years is the max, right?
22 years is the max.
So, so they'll, there will be a sentencing, like a guideline recommendation.
And at sentencing, you're sort of likely to go back to like a lot of the stuff that came out at the detention hearing that was sort of held back during the trial will, you know, to some extent that stuff can sort of come back and it's a sentence thing.
And I'm sure he'll appeal, which would be after the sentencing.
The judge has discretion, like, So the sentencing recommendation is this whole complicated worksheet of factors, like previous criminal history, etc, etc.
And that worksheet or whatever will spit out a range, right?
Let's say it spits out 10 to 13 years.
The judge can either sentence within that range, or I believe, I'm not an attorney, Or or the judge can go bigger with it and that it remains unclear I will say that like at a minimum one would think that they can't well will not only be in in prison for some amount of time but when he's released from prison will not be able to have guns which.
So when Campbell was arrested, he had 17 and he had already sold a lot of his guns.
He had 17 guns in that little apartment, the saddest little apartment, 40 terabytes of data and 17 guns and like some steroids.
I mean, 40 terabytes of data seems... yeah, yeah, I get that.
I know, but Daniel, you have like a skewed, you have like a skewed... Right, yeah.
Hold on, hold on, 40 terabytes of Nazi content is enough to get you on a list?
Well, let me go hide some stuff.
No, but 17, like... Yeah, 17 guns, 17 guns.
17 guns, like... 17 guns!
I mean, 17 yards within yards of a school at that.
Well, what you're allowed to have, you can have 500 guns within yards of a school inside your house, but Campbell had one of them and he wasn't charged for this.
I mean, I don't think it's a fight.
I'm assuming it's not a federal crime.
He had one of the guns was attached to a case magnet to the underside of his car.
I'm not sure the like reason for that.
I honestly don't quite get why.
I'm sure someone will understand why one would.
I'm sure it's a paranoia if I had to get out of town like right away and had to like drive away.
I've got one gun.
But why wouldn't you keep it inside your car?
So that if they search beforehand, they don't see it on the inside of the car.
I mean, I don't know, like, it's one of those... If they didn't have a pole camera at the end of his driveway and hadn't had him under surveillance for like a year, that would make a lot of sense.
Well, and the irony being, like, if he had not had...
That piece of that that piece of plastic like magneted to the bottom of this car.
They may not have had they would have had to find another way to get the warrant right like I did read that warrant and it's like this is the justification to kind of go.
Yes and no I think that warrant gave them access to things they wouldn't have otherwise had access to like I think they have to.
It's the easy thing.
But the reason they wanted that is they were unsure, I think, at that time.
They wanted his hard drives and I don't think they knew.
I know some of them were in Maryland.
I think there were some in Maryland.
I don't think they knew where he was keeping what at that point.
But man, that's a lot of guns.
And that says to me that he's someone... The other thing that came out of trial that I thought was like Completely insane, and I would not have expected this.
Was that Cantwell at one point described the threats he was receiving and what level of threat, quote-unquote, it's hard for me to even call this a threat, he would call the police as a result of.
Literally said that if someone sent him an email that said, hey, you want to fight?
That he would send it to the police.
Which is insane, um, and not a crime.
And it's just amazing to me that, that he was doing that at the same time that he was like openly posting about murdering people.
Um, and I wouldn't call the police when someone wrote about, I mean, I'm not going to say I've never, you know, there's no level of threat that I would contact law enforcement for.
I reserve the right to do that.
I know people disagree with it, but that's fine.
Um, But I certainly someone sent me an email that said, hey, you want to fight?
I certainly wouldn't call the police.
I would probably just reply with like, no.
Yeah.
Go about my day.
I have better things to do with my life.
A doxing you.
Because that's the thing that I do as an anti-fascist.
That would be a sense of proportion though, wouldn't it?
No, but I think it speaks to just how completely deranged his brain does not operate in the normal way.
Yeah, clearly.
I mean, I think you and I are two of the dozen people, maybe, who have spent the most time trying to understand Catwell, and I think there is a bit of light between us, but I think we're mostly on the same page, and I think this has been a good conversation.
About the Cantwell trial and we could go on for hours, but I think this is also this may be the second longest I don't speak German I don't think it's the longest but it's probably the second longest so I think we should cut it off here and maybe kind of come back otherwise Hillary is there anything that you would really like to share with us about?
Don't send me pictures of bowl cuts on my head, thank you.
Or Cantwell's dick, that would be the other thing, not to say.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Oh, no one has ever sent me that, I didn't even think about that.
But do send me funny Jared Howe screenshots.
I very much enjoy those.
So Hillary, where can we find you on the internet?
I apologize, we didn't really introduce you, so please tell people where they can find your work.
No, that's okay.
I am on Twitter.
I would say that's the only place that I want anyone to try to find me.
I'm on Twitter.
My handle is L-I-L-S-A-R-G.
And all of the Cantwell stuff is on Informant's website, which I believe is informant.news.
All of that is going to be in the show notes.
Your Twitter and all that will be in the show notes.
Okay.
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
It's been fascinating and compelling and bizarre and well, it's been Cantwell.
It's our longest ever and maybe and probably hopefully our last ever Cantwell News segment.
Well, the thing that I didn't land on here is that all the like stuff that I tweet about about Cantwell is mostly based on the Science v Kessler lawsuit.
Like, Yeah, he may come back up again.
again the bit where he like does the hitler quote underneath this gets much much worse that isn't even related to this lawsuit this is he literally informed on himself to the fbi and then the fbi turned over a bunch of the shit and then they just charged him and he's he's gonna go to prison for a few years
The civil lawsuit is a much, much, much different thing, which has so many more loopholes and bullshit related to it.
So we're never going to be done with Cantwell.
We'll never be free.
Sorry, listeners.
You know, the only other thing I just want to add is that I do think it's going to be really interesting to see what happens with Jared Howe, who has ridden these coattails as far as one can possibly Ride them and it'll be interesting to see if he if he fades out.
Who cares about Jared Howe except for us, basically.
Just Cantwell, I think.
He went on, he was, he did go on Rebel Yell, which is an ex-TRS podcast, but that was a few months ago, and that's the only other appearance that I've seen him go on, so like, you know, Jared Howe is already, like, everyone related to Cantwell is already kind of isolated in their own little, like, pod, and I'm happy to let them kind of go off and do that.
My fear is that, like, Cantwell, if he actually goes to jail for this and then, like, produces content, like writes a book or whatever, might become more relevant in two or three years as someone who is a quote-unquote political prisoner.
But I think everybody hates Cantwell, so I think we get, like, at least a year of not caring about him.
So, good for all of us.
Good for all of us.
Yeah.
Okay.
Thanks, guys.
It's been it's been so good to have you Hillary.
Please come back at any time you feel like you have anything to add to the conversation and I apologize for us being complete douchebags.
That was I Don't Speak German.
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