Episode 43: Cantwell News Special (with Emily Gorcenski)
This week we at Chez IDSG are honoured to be joined by special guest Emily Gorcenski, who joins Daniel to talk about the one-man motherlode of nasty and stupid that is Christopher 'Crying Nazi' Cantwell. Buckle up, my darlings. (Sorry about the late arrival of this episode, but editing it involved some special challenges. It was worth it though.) Content Warning. Links / Notes: Cantwell's SPLC page. https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/christopher-cantwell Our very own double Cantwell episode, Part 1 and Part 2 Emily Gorcenski on Twitter: https://twitter.com/EmilyGorcenski http://www.first-vigil.com/ https://howhatesleeps.com/ Local report on Cantwell's arrest. https://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/cantwell-arrested-in-keene-on-federal-charges-accused-of-threat/article_66a05e5e-8d1c-5b8d-ad21-9c4d0ec18c7b.html Cantwell arrest indictment. https://twitter.com/SeamusHughes/status/1220354012505133058?s=20 Lieutenant of the Alt-right. https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000005394012/eli-mosley-alt-right.html Cantwell's motion in Sines v Kessler. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6168921/637/sines-v-kessler/ Plaintiff's response to Cantwell's nonsense. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6168921/641/sines-v-kessler/ Daniel and Emily on Jared Holt's Sh1tpost podcast: https://shtpost.substack.com/p/the-arrest-of-chris-cantwell-12720
Alright, welcome to episode 43 of I Don't Speak German, the podcast in which normally I speak to my friend Jack Graham about Nazis and the terrible things they believe.
Jack decided once again not to join us today because he has better things to do than to think about Nazis and perish the thought.
But I have someone who I think Really needs no introduction to the audience of this podcast.
I am currently joined by Emily Gorchensky, who I've been pronouncing as Gorchensky forever, and I do deeply apologize to everyone involved, including Emily.
So, Emily, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I'm very excited to finally come on, and I think we have an exciting topic today.
You know, there was a moment of like, well, what could Emily and I possibly talk about on this podcast?
There's so much that she and I could just share so much information back and forth and really get into the nitty-gritty details of the complexities of dealing with international terrorism and fascism and right-wing violence.
And then we thought, oh, fuck it, let's just talk about Chris Cantwell for an hour or so.
And so that's what we're going to do.
We can always do a second episode.
Yeah, no, you're welcome back at any time.
So thank you very much for joining us, Emily.
Just in case anyone does not know who you are, would you mind just kind of like introducing yourself, kind of telling about what you do and kind of who you are?
I can't imagine you're going to need more than 30 seconds to completely encapsulate yourself for this podcast audience.
Yeah, sure thing.
So, I guess I came into this whole Nazi-fighting, Nazi-hunting game a little late, and largely because I'm somebody who lived in Charlottesville for almost 10 years by the time Unite the Right came around.
It was the city I called home.
I was married there, owned a house there, and was quite upset at these Nazi punks coming into my town.
And decided to do something about it.
And for whatever reason, I happen to be very effective at it.
And as I have grown and evolved, I've turned that into using my skills as a technologist to track them, track court cases, and identify Nazis through open source intelligence.
I also run a site called First Vigil, which tracks court cases, criminal court cases, dealing with far-right Actions and hate crimes and things like that in the United States.
And I also have a site called How Hate Sleeps, which is a little bit more of an artistic look at the inner lives of some of these people.
Yeah, no, and that one is really fascinating on just a sort of phenomenological level of just kind of getting a look at the inner lives.
I mean, a lot of what listening to hours and hours of these people talk does is give you a sense of Who they are, even when they're kind of propagandizing, because there's kind of a verite aspect to it.
And then when you get, like, photos of these people's bedrooms, it really is... really does give you just a whole other level of that.
I think the... I don't know if we can identify clearly which one is which, but James Alex Field's bedroom, once we saw that one, it really kind of made... certain things became very, very clear, and certain things became even more obscure, I think.
Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, it's an interesting look and I want it to be sort of, you know, capture the essence of some of these guys and who they are and how they act, you know, when they're in private.
And it's interesting to see some of them, you know, like some of these bedrooms are like super pristine and like everything is ordered and you're like, okay, that's like some, you know, some like weird shit to like be that precise about everything.
And then some of them are a complete mess.
And then you've got guys that still have Nintendo 64s and Pokemon on their dresser and you're like, come on dude, you can't run an international neo-Nazi terror crime New World Order syndicate if you have a Charmander on your dresser.
It doesn't work like that.
But apparently it does, so, you know, how lovely.
So that's our introductions done.
I did just want to kind of get into, just a little bit, we are going to be talking about Chris Cantwell.
This podcast has already done a two-part episode on Chris Cantwell, and we have done a series of entries discussing Cantwell over the course of many, many episodes as he has continued to fuck up.
So we're just going to assume that we don't have to do the 100-level Chris Cantwell thing.
But I am curious, because I have a particular story with this.
When was the first time that Cantwell kind of came into your orbit?
When did you first become aware of this guy?
Yeah, so here's the thing.
I didn't care about Chris Cantwell until about August 10th, 2017.
I can't imagine why that day would be the one.
There's a specific reason.
So in the lead up to Unite the Right, there were the fascists were doing lots of promotions of it on social media.
They had this poster in particular that was kind of like this art deco callback to Nazi era or like pre like, you know, late Weimar era art and imagery of like the rally and fascism and stuff. late Weimar era art and imagery of like the rally And there were a bunch of names on it.
And so Richard Spencer obviously was a big one.
And that's who I spent most of my time like researching and understanding.
But then there were guys on it like Paxton and Johnny Monoxide and then Chris Cantwell.
And so, you know, as somebody whose town was about to be invaded by these assholes, I went and I did my research on who all of them were.
And some of them I only spent a little bit of time digging into.
Like, I don't... I didn't care who Johnny Monoxide was.
I still don't care who he was.
He got fired.
He's probably off, like, being miserable somewhere.
Great.
And Chris Cantwell was one of the same.
And the first time I looked into Chris Cantwell... I could tell you a lot about Johnny Monoxide.
He's a very amusing character.
But we'll table that for now.
So the first time I looked into Chris Cantwell, I actually found the other Chris Cantwell, who was like a comics writer and a showrunner for The Walking Dead or something like that.
I'm like, that's weird.
Why is this guy a Nazi?
And so I kind of like shelved that.
I was like, I'll figure out what's going on with that a little bit later.
And then on the 10th of October, or August, two days before the rally, somebody let me know, you know, so I'm not the only one in Charlottesville who's looking into all these guys.
They've got mailing lists and they've got private websites and, you know, paywalls and all this stuff.
So, like, of course, as soon as they announced this stuff, a bunch of people signed up for this shit.
So we knew what was going on, right?
And like, we knew from the moment that this was announced that there was, like, all of this was going to be critical evidence.
And so somebody had signed up for Chris Cantwell's private mailing list, paid him the $5 or whatever, and they told me, like, hey, do you know that he's got a meetup happening tomorrow in the Walmart parking lot?
I'm like, okay, that's cool, and I didn't think much of it.
And like later that night, I was like, OK, maybe I should go to this meetup and check it out.
So I look into it and find that he's like some libertarian guy, you know, kind of on the verge of white supremacy at that time, kind of like ran for Congress or whatever, and then also got banned from like Twitter and Facebook.
And this was a time when like being banned, like getting banned as being a Nazi on Twitter was really hard.
And so I kind of figured like, OK, maybe this guy's got some problems.
So that's the first time I learned of Chris Cantwell.
And the next morning, so Friday, August 11th, was like the first day of the rally.
And so he was having this meetup at this Walmart parking lot just north of Charlottesville on Route 29.
And that morning I had given an interview, I think it was with Jason Wilson of The Guardian.
He was in town, so I sat down with him at a cafe and we talked about whatever.
And I kind of made a last-minute decision.
I ran home, I did some things, and I decided, you know what?
I'm going to go check out this meeting.
So I hustled up to get to the Walmart, and I got there about 5 or 10 minutes late, just to sort of scope out what was happening at this meetup.
I wanted to see how many guys were with him, how old they were.
Were they old?
Were they young?
Were they nerds?
Were they buff?
What was their deal?
And I'm there for a couple of minutes before all the police show up.
And so that was my introduction to Chris Campbell.
The first thing that invoked a massive police response was him in a Walmart parking lot.
So that was how that weekend came to life.
The infamous Walmart parking lot, yes.
So you had very little knowledge of him until you were literally confronted with him in the flesh, basically.
So you kind of had the background later on, except for more vague knowledge.
discovered him somebody had like commented about him in a comment thread i think somewhere and i just saw the name and it's like oh this famous white nationalist this is like nazi guy chris can't well and this was this was like summer 2017 so probably june or july um was when i kind of first became aware of the name and i was oh one of those i kind of libertarian to alt-right pipeline guys right
and so immediately i'm at that time i was kind of more following more the trs side of things and the you know i had kind of i was trying to branch out of that and trying to kind of follow as much as i could but like i'd never heard of this guy until like that moment and so i just went well okay go and find the radical agenda feed and start and at the time i would go and like listen back a few weeks and then just kind of like get caught up to the present to get a sense of like who these guys were.
And so I, like, mainlined him for, like, three weeks or something like that.
You know, which is always a glorious thing to get to do, a glorious time in a man's life, is to mainline Chris Cantwell for a few weeks.
So I was very aware of him by the time of the Unite the Right rally.
And when the Charlottesville Race and Terror documentary came out, I saw him on screen and I was like, oh, that's Chris Cantwell.
I was DMing with buddies and we were talking about it.
And I didn't realize he was going to be like the central figure of that documentary.
I'm like, oh, that's that Chris Cantwell guy I've been following around, you know.
And oh my God, he has been so much more important to like the coverage of this stuff than anyone could have ever imagined at the time that I ran into.
Yeah, it feels like he made, you know, one of those, like, he found a genie or something, like a magic lamp and made a wish to become the most important figure in the far right.
And his wish came true, just not in the way that he expected, you know, that sort of malicious compliance of the universe with his desires.
He's like, He found the monkey's paw apparently.
It's funny because, you know, I didn't know that that documentary at first was following him until I saw it, which was a few days after everything, and I kind of watched it in a haze.
But it was interesting, like, when it came out, like, I knew that there was a news crew following him after the Walmart parking lot, because we knew, like, I knew from all of the community who had gathered all this evidence, they were like, OK, he's going to meet at this parking lot, then move to this undisclosed location.
And there's only like three places that it could possibly be in Charlottesville.
It's like not that big.
And I knew that he had a news crew with him.
So I knew that something was going on, but I didn't realize it was like the big documentary until I watched it like the Wednesday or Thursday after the rally.
And I was like, oh, my God, that's the guy.
Like, I can't believe they made a video of the guy that I pressed charges on.
So I guess the other context, maybe for the listener who doesn't know, the reason that Chris Cantwell is known as a crying Nazi.
And maybe we'll get to this story, but.
So obviously he had this video after the Unite the Right rally.
So the rally happened, Heather Heyer was murdered, Chris Cantwell was shown to be a complete asshole in this Vice documentary, and then the world's greatest comeuppance happened when he released a video of himself crying over the fact that he had an arrest warrant.
Well, I'm like one of the two people who press charges on him to give him the arrest warrant, but the reason that he knew that there was an arrest warrant was because I deliberately leaked it in social media, in a Periscope video, that there was a warrant for his arrest, knowing that the Nazis were hyper-focused on all of my videos.
Like, they had people watching me all the time.
So as soon as I said, oh Chris Cantwell's got a warrant for his arrest, it bubbled up through their Discord.
You can look at the Discord leaks now and it says, oh Chris is like, I hear there's a warrant for my arrest, can anyone confirm or deny this?
So that's what happened.
I was following him on because he did they did a ton of podcasts after Unite the Right right and that like three or four days between the I was following his like public appearances that he was doing at that time like he recorded an episode of the Daily Shoah where he bragged about the assault that he committed although he frames it as self-defense but he's literally like describing his actions on August 11th and bragging about the assaults Yeah.
And that audio, it's still available.
This is not hidden knowledge.
Right.
And that's the thing.
He made the picture of him pepper-spraying us his Facebook header.
He's claiming self-defense.
He bragged about it.
He bragged about how many communists he beat up that night.
And then all of a sudden, as soon as it's consequences, oh, it was self-defense.
I'm being persecuted.
That's Chris in a nutshell.
And when you're a member of a torch-wielding mob of like 700 people that all encircle, what, 20 counter-protesters that night?
And I'm not trying to, like, bring back memories of that or anything like that, but I watched that video quite a few times myself and, you know, that is, you know, you don't get to claim self-defense.
Right.
Right.
So, just jumping ahead here, I thought it was worthwhile to kind of get into just kind of describing a little bit of the backstory here.
Now, you countersued, there's been a lot of like legal wrangling between the two of you.
Can you kind of summarize that briefly for the audience?
Because I'll be honest, you know, I have, we all have our own little areas that we follow, and like the legal world and like the civil suits is just kind of like, there are other people that follow this.
I kind of get the broad outlines, but I miss a lot of the finagling of the details of that stuff.
So can you walk us through that process as quickly as possible?
Sure.
So I pressed charges on Chris Kentwell the morning of August 12th for pepper spraying me.
And his charges get certified, including my complaint.
My complaint was unmodified.
His charge got certified to a grand jury at a preliminary hearing, no question about it.
There were actually initially two charges, one which didn't apply, which is fine.
But because of the way that the charges worked out, he got let out on bond.
He was previously being held without bond, and then he was able to be let out after the courts figured out what the right thing to charge him with was.
He interprets this as, like, we committed perjury, which is not, like, I have the transcripts of the hearing.
There's no point at which the judge is like, oh, these people, like, these reports were wrong.
The judge is like, uh, what we found is, like, that there's no, like, the injury wasn't, didn't meet the level for this one charge, but it did meet the level for this other charge.
So he sues me and Goad for malicious prosecution and initiates this lawsuit.
And this is Christopher Goad, like Goad Gatsby.
Yeah, this is Goad Gatsby, the disco mustache, the one and only.
Not Jim Goad, who is a very different kind of figure.
Yes, yes.
This is Christopher Goad, Goad Gatsby on Twitter.
He's a wonderful follower and a wonderful human being.
Yes.
So Chris sues us and then we countersue him.
And this is in addition to his other lawsuit, the big civil case, Symes v. Kessler, that he's involved in.
And so this lawsuit that he files against us gets increasingly absurd over the course of the next almost 12 months.
And so we end up in this legal battle and a lot of it involves increasingly absurd accusations about me and who I am.
At one point he accuses me of being a commander of Philadelphia Antifa.
His lawyer accused me on the stand of being an Antifa special operative.
Was this Elmer?
This was Elmer Woodard.
And then he goes into this whole thing about the Walmart parking lot, about how I was collaborating with the police and I was in an eavesdropper vehicle and that I lied to the FBI and coordinated with a hit squad from Philadelphia to have him literally assassinated.
And this is all stuff that he's filing with a straight face.
Right.
And just to give a little bit of a story here, so he's wearing a body cam during this infamous Walmart meetup, right?
And so he's got this body cam on, he films all his interactions with the police and all of his fans.
And the police were called on him because somebody reported him for brandishing a gun.
It wasn't me, I don't know who did it.
I got there like five minutes before the police got there.
It turns out that like a bunch of people maybe from Philadelphia approached him and were like talking at him and he turns around and like shows him his concealed weapon which by the way in Virginia is considered brandishing.
Like if you are carrying a concealed weapon and you reveal it that is brandishing according to Virginia case law.
So he commits a crime and then somebody calls the police and the police come and they talk to him.
As this is going on, I'm sitting in my truck, and I'm getting different vantage points.
I'm moving around the parking lot in my truck, taking pictures of what's going on.
And at one point, I'm taking pictures in my truck, in the rear-view mirror, so they don't see that I'm watching them.
So I've got my camera up to the rear-view mirror, or the side-view mirror, taking pictures of the meeting.
And Chris is completely baffled by this, because I'm posting all this on Twitter, and he finds this later on when he sues me.
And he can't figure out, like, how these different angles worked out, so he's convinced that I'm in an eavesdropper vehicle because I testified that I overheard an officer, like, on a police officer's radio, I overheard the ID check come back.
Um, and so he's like, thinks that he's got it figured out where my truck is.
Now, I drove a red pickup truck, and this is a Walmart in Virginia.
There was like seven red pickup trucks in the parking lot.
So he thinks that he's got it figured out, and that like, I'm in this silver SUV, and then he like, has this like, puts this picture in the lawsuit about like, this is a silver SUV, it drove by us slowly.
And it's like, yeah dude, it's an open Walmart parking lot on a Friday in the summer.
Like, you've got 40 people standing in the middle of the fucking road.
Like, what do you think?
So it turns out he's got this whole story concocted around what he calls now the eavesdropper vehicle, which was a coordination between obviously the police and Philly Antifa, which I am somehow the commander of.
And he goes on for pages and pages and pages, and the purpose of him going on for pages and pages is to make the lawsuit fucking 88 pages.
It turns out all of this is completely false because all of my testimony, I said, you know, I happened to be parked next to an Albemarle County police officer who was taking notes and I heard on his radio that an ID check came back and I've got physical evidence of all this.
I've got a photograph of the officer.
I've got, you know, his license plate and his squad car number and all of this stuff and it's all timestamped to the exact moment.
And he loses it.
We file this as evidence against his claim, and he just loses his shit.
And I think ever since that, he built up this whole lawsuit around this idea that I'm an Antifa mastermind, and it broke him.
And so now he has carried this forward.
So he's involved in this other case, Sainz v. Kessler.
And for reasons that we'll get to shortly, I'm sure, he's fired his lawyers, so now he's representing himself.
Yes, which we've covered a bit of that in previous episodes as well, but yes, please.
He's fired his lawyers.
So he's fired his lawyers, and now he's trying to do motions practice all on his own.
He doesn't know what he's doing.
So, he spent the last, probably what, four or five weeks at least, working on what he considers his grand book and his magnum opus of this legal filing, which he is convinced that the judge is going to take one careful read-through and then throw out all of the claims and exonerate him and pardon him and anoint him Führer of Charlottesville, right?
He took two weeks off of his show, which is how he makes his money, to be clear.
He doesn't have a job.
This is not a man with gainful employment except for doing his racist radio show to an increasingly small number of people.
Let's make that clear.
He takes two weeks off from his show to write and file this, what, 384 page document?
Several hundred pages, 200 or so of which are screencaps of my tweets that happened after the fact, right?
Like in 2019, he's like screencapping tweets.
And I'm not even a party to this lawsuit.
Like, I'm not involved in this lawsuit in any way.
And he continues with this batshit motion where he is convinced that the first crime that happened at Unite the Right was that somebody falsely called the police on him for brandishing a gun, which is something that he has already admitted to doing in his other filings, and therefore it's actually everyone but himself to blame for Heather Heyer's death and all of what has happened to the neo-fascist movement in the time since.
Yeah, none of the things that have happened to him are at all his fault.
And there's this vast conspiracy, which I think we're going to get to the nature of the vast conspiracy here shortly, that he currently believes exists, because it is a doozy.
And I'm not even sure you know all the details of this, but, you know, I've been following, like... So, just to be clear, I've listened to probably 80% of his total content since I first started following him in summer of 2017.
Some of the live from seg stuff I just kind of had to like let go by and some of the when he was like taking calls constantly I would listen to the first few minutes when he did kind of his thesis and then kind of let the callers go by.
So I haven't listened to literally every word he's spoken but I listen to a whole fuck of a lot of this man speak.
Alright, and he has clearly degraded to almost absurd degrees at this point.
He is spinning conspiracies within conspiracies here.
So, he files this filing in the lawsuit, which is the one that literally quotes Hitler.
Let's make that clear.
He has subject headings in this document, and one of them is, this gets much, much worse.
It's Hitler.
And then quotes it to a famous 20th century statesman.
As if people don't know how to Google.
And my favorite part of it, and I'm looking at this motion right here, he opens the motion with a quote from Jeb Bush.
And the quote is, if you could go back in time and kill baby Hitler, would you?
Hell yeah, I would.
2016 Republican presidential candidate, Jeb Bush.
And so that's how he starts this filing.
And then he proceeds to say, and I'm quoting verbatim, "Defendant Cantwell, compelled by circumstance to represent himself pro se, is not capable of making a legal argument.
This is not for lack of trying, nor of dedication to task." And so he opens up by admitting that he has no idea what he's going to do.
On page one of this filing that he opens up with a random quote about killing baby Hitler, and this is page one of three hundred something.
It's just absurd.
And so, like, we can imagine that the judge basically took one look at this and went, like, well, this is just the ranting of a madman and set it aside, essentially.
Like, we don't think the judge really, like, took their time going through this in any sense, right?
Oh, no, not at all.
I mean, the very next day, the judge didn't even care about his objection, didn't even note it, and proceeded to levy sanctions against Elliot Klein.
So the whole point of his motion was, Eli Klein, Eli Mosley, Yeah, and so he was like the main, he was like the chief organizer.
He was like the head dude in charge of this rally.
And he's been non-cooperative with this lawsuit.
I put in the show notes.
It'll kind of give you some background on him.
He's been mostly lying low for quite a while now after he was out at his lying about his military record.
Yeah.
And so he was like the main, he was like the chief organizer.
He was like the head dude in charge of this rally.
And he's been non-cooperative with this lawsuit.
And so he got thrown in jail for it briefly a few weeks back for contempt.
So the judge is trying to think of what to do about the fact that he's not cooperating.
And so Cantwell is objecting to the idea that the electronic vendor that is handling the recovery of Eli Mosley's emails and stuff would be allowed to just hand that directly over to the plaintiffs without a previous review by by Mosley himself.
And Chris knows because Chris has been in contact with Mosley throughout this whole time.
So Chris knows that there's probably a shitload of incriminating evidence in these contacts that he has.
Right.
And so he's objecting to the release of this direction to the plaintiffs, despite the fact that it's Eli Mosley's fucking fault that this is happening in the first place, for not cooperating with the discovery process.
And he's And so this is the kind of legal minutia surrounding this whole 300-page This book that Cantwell has written, which is his magnum opus about why Queen Antifa is actually controlling the legal process all in a matter of crushing Cantwell personally.
And I mean, just when you put it in the context of this is literally a motion in support of a, you know, of a legal filing, this is not the place or time to do that.
And I love that the response by the plaintiffs is essentially like, if you wanted to dismiss this case, you had the chance to do so two years ago, asshole.
Right.
Right.
Yeah, basically, like, it's like, yes, thank you for admitting you don't know what you're doing.
You can't do this right now.
Right.
The deadline for this was X date, according to, you know, statute Y, etc.
You know, it was a very, you know, they got in some snark, but it was like this very kind of tightly reasoned little, like, legal piece basically going, we have no need to respond to the entire bulk of this, which has no relevance.
This is what Cantwell is saying, and this is why it's complete nonsense at this point.
Good for you Cantwell.
Glad you're wasting your time.
It's great.
I do love the idea that Cantwell spun his wheels for weeks on this document, which did him no good at all, unless he decides to publish some version of it as a book at some point and make money off of it.
Whatever.
Good for you, Cantwell.
Glad you're wasting your time.
It's great.
It's great for the rest of us.
It's astonishing.
And the thing is, it's completely incoherent.
And for somebody who spent this much time and this much energy and took two whole weeks off, I mean, it makes no sense at all.
And the stuff that he pulls out from my Twitter is just hilarious.
One screenshot that he takes is back in November 2017.
I came to Berlin, so I was still living in Charlottesville.
This is before I moved to Berlin.
I was looking at moving overseas, so I came out here for a month.
Um, in November of 2017.
And I posted on Twitter, I said, I'm in Berlin for a while and it's definitely not for Antifa operative training.
And then I replied to that, like, I make a little thread and I said, you know, in parentheses, this tweet is literal, you know, for when it gets introduced in a court of law.
So it's like, I'm predicting that he's going to file this shit, like in court, um, to try to use against me.
And he's, he's literally falling directly into the trap that I've laid for him.
Exactly.
I love the, um, there's a detail here that I, you know, maybe it's time to reveal a certain thing.
You know, because Cantwell is obsessed with the idea that there are, like, you know, legal experts following every word he writes and following every word he speaks on his podcast.
Like, Roberta Kaplan herself is, like, personally following him around on the internet sort of thing.
And that the ADL and the SPLC are all, like, you know, there are dozens of interns all, like, just furiously scribbling and finding ways to go after him.
And I'm just going to say that at a certain point in his bond process, he was forbidden from speaking certain names aloud.
And one of them was yours.
And he did not stop doing so for some amount of time.
I don't know where you would find someone who might have been listening to the show at that time and who might have been aware of that BOD restriction and who might have had access to email.
I'm not sure if I'm making it clear enough exactly what that process was, if Cantwell or anyone in his orbit decides to listen to this and put two and two together.
If there are teams at the SPLC and the ADL and the FBI and like Hamas or the Mossad or whatever who are all plotting to get Cantwell, they're not letting me know.
I could use some financial support, let's put it that way.
Anyway, so during this legal process, I don't know if you said you had some juicy details for us that might have not been publicly detailed until now that you would like to use this platform to share.
Sure.
If you've got some stuff to tell us, we, I would, you know, the thing for me is I follow, like, his public pronouncements, like, entirely.
Like, that's, that's, like, all I do.
Like, I have people in my DMs who send me, like, I ran into Cantwell, like, people who live in Kane, New Hampshire, where he lives, will send me, like, photos and stuff of, like, I think I ran into Cantwell, or they'll send me like little tidbits, and I'm kind of like, that's great, I appreciate it, like the fact that he went and checked his mail is not interesting to me necessarily, but I'm glad you think of me as a reasonable source.
I did get one really delicious tidbit that didn't turn out, it was a misidentification, but it was like, I saw him in a coffee shop with a chihuahua, and I was like, how does Chris Cantwell have a chihuahua?
I wish that happened.
I hope he gets a puppy or something.
Some creature that he can care for and love and love him unconditionally because nobody else will.
He's the only guy that I know that's been banned from OkCupid, Twitter, Facebook, Gab, and the entire state of Virginia.
So anyway, I do get tidbits, but mostly I really just follow his personal life, but I think you've got some stuff to share with us, and I would love to get that on the record if you're willing to discuss it.
Sure.
So, you know, during this whole lawsuit process while he was still, before he had pled guilty, you know, there was, he was forbidden from talking about me or to me or any of that.
And certainly I was in no, you know, it was not a good idea for me to try to contact him and I did not.
But I knew that he was desperate and has poor impulse control, let's say.
And so there's this one point about two years ago, I think.
So a lot of these guys have been kicked off of Patreon and GoFundMe and all these fundraising platforms.
And so there was this platform that was spinning up called Maker Support.
And it was supposed to be for hardware hackers and things like that, but the owner was sympathetic to the Nazi movement or was at least sympathetic to the idea of free speech or something.
Right.
And so he was letting them on the platform.
But it turns out that a lot of Nazis were using it.
Most of the business, or a significant percentage of the business, was coming from this neo-Nazi fundraising, including Chris.
So there was a movement to get it deplatformed, which I was not part of.
I did not lead that, but other people did.
And so they were using Stripe to process their payments.
And Stripe decided to drop them because this company was basically, at this point, Effectively operating as a front for Neo-Nazi fundraising.
So Stripe drops them.
And I see this and decide to make a statement on it, okay?
And I'm very careful with how I choose my wording when I make this statement.
So I link to the blog post from the CEO of Makersupport who says, like, we're sorry for the interruptions in service.
Stripe has decided to drop us as a payment provider.
We're working on alternative solutions, blah, blah, blah.
And so I link to that blog post on my Twitter and I make a comment saying something like, the good people at Stripe, which includes many friends and former co-workers, have decided to drop maker support for their, you know, platforming of neo-Nazis.
And this is a true statement, right?
So I used to work in the financial tech industry in the US.
I know several people who work at Stripe.
So everything in the statement is Self-contained, true.
And I'm not putting any innuendo into it.
But I know that Chris is going to look at it and read into it.
And so I post this, and I link it... The vast Antifa trans conspiracy.
Right.
So I link it to a couple people, and I say, watch this.
Like, I post it, and I'm just like, watch this.
And I just wait, and 45 minutes later, Chris puts up a blog post.
Say, and the title of the blog post is, Stripe is giving your credit card information to Antifa.
And it's like the most batshit thing.
And so he goes on this long rant about how trans people in tech are like stealing your credit card information with the help of big tech companies and they're the real threat.
And he links a bunch of my tweets and puts a bunch of screencaps of these tweets in his blog post, which he can't do.
So this is 45 minutes after I post this.
So what do I do?
I turn around.
Archive the blog post, send it to the prosecutor, who then turns around and bond violates him because he's not allowed to talk about me.
So it's just like this thing, like, you just knew that, like, he has such bad impulse control and logic and reasoning skills that you know that he can't help himself.
And that was, like, that's how this lawsuit has gone, like, went from beginning to end.
Like, he would say something absolutely inane.
And I'd make a response that I knew he would read into in the wrong way.
You could read it 30 different ways, he would pick the one wrongest way and then act in the most egregious manner because Chris at every turn chooses the wrong thing without fail.
He's such an incompetent Nazi, you'd think he was a plant.
But if he was a plant, he would be smarter than he is at doing this.
He doesn't suck down his buddies with this.
It's always him and him alone.
That's how bad he is.
He's the first person who has admitted to being a federal informant where the feds were asking him for information on the other white nationalists, which he then tried to get and then the feds arrested him for it.
Yeah, I mean, you and I appeared on Jared Holt's podcast about a week and a half ago.
We'll put that in the show notes as well.
That gives a little bit more background on the Cantwell arrest.
We don't necessarily have to go into the details of that again because we've already discussed that.
But, you know, Jared definitely had the moment of like, Yeah, it sounds like the feds just kind of saw his legal filing and went, yeah, I guess he's done.
I guess he's done.
We've gotten all we're going to get out of him.
And there's always this speculation among these guys as to who is and isn't a federal informant, because we know that some of these guys have to be federal informants.
That's just the nature of, like, if you know anything about the history of these movements, there are fed informants running all through them.
Chris is the one who like admitted I am a federal informant, but he's like, no, I'm just giving an info on anti-fascists.
That's all I'm doing.
I'm just, I'm just going after the Reds.
I'm just going after the communists.
They're not going to come for you guys.
And it's like, um, that's not exactly how it works when you're an informant.
Right.
And he does things like he, he handed over his body cam footage, like unedited with all of the like people at the Walmart meetup that he met with completely fucking doxed, right?
Like, Handed over all of that information.
And that includes people that I would love to press charges on who conspired to literally murder me.
Like, I've doxxed these people.
I know who they are.
Right.
They've committed crimes and Chris has handed over this evidence.
Whether anything happens, I doubt it, but yeah, so he's handed over evidence.
He's convinced that Antifa stole that footage and like either gave it to the Feds or the Feds gave it to Antifa or something.
He's convinced that like, the details around that body cam footage, because he says like after the Walmart parking lot incident, he uploaded it to his server and then like kept the body cam, but then during the Torch March that night, the body cam got lost.
At some point.
And then I think there's been some... I'd have to go back through and elicit a whole bunch of this stuff, but there's some, like, doubt in my mind it's exactly what his real story is on that body cam footage.
But he claims it was lost, but then he claims that, you know, Antifa got it and used, like, some of the stuff on it in order to, like, you know, dox people and all that sort of thing.
And the only way to get it is, you know, like... Then obviously it has to be, you know, you.
He's blaming you, but he can't say your name anymore.
Oh yeah.
I did notice that after that bond-rification happened, and after he was unable to say your name, suddenly he starts covering many more, like, quote-unquote, awful transgender stories, and he would, you know, it was very much a thing.
He has about 20 Google Alerts for variations on the word transgender, and for a long time he would, like, every episode was just, like, ranting and raving about how terrible trans people are.
You know, it's... I'm gonna say, like, I listen to a lot of vile, disgusting content, and I'm not saying this is worse, but this was definitely more un... like, some of the most unpleasant listening I've done in this entire, like, process, is how vile he got towards, like, trans people in general, and, like, it's... I'm kind of laughing about it, because we have... you have to kind of take it with a sense of humor, but my god, this man is a vile, disgusting bigot, and I think I don't necessarily say that in quite so many words often enough sometimes.
Totally.
I mean, and the thing that really sucks is that he's gone after people who are friends of mine, right?
So, he's gone after a friend of mine who worked at Google, who no longer works at Google, but has been very involved in the tech workers.
And he's attacked her and actually about yesterday or two days ago was the second anniversary of a friend of mine, a trans friend of mine, who tragically took her own life.
There's a whole story about that that I'll be telling in my book when I eventually write my book, but the short version is I had to really try to not post or talk about that publicly because he was so aggressive in it.
And he eventually found out that somebody who was in the tech community, who was trans, took her own life and posted some vile, vile stuff about her.
And I don't ever know if he knew that I knew her.
Um, and was fairly close to her, um, but it was, you know, it's just, it shows the person that he is, right?
Like, he is a person who is full of hate, and he's so full of hate that he, he cannot act in his own best interest, right?
He's, instead of taking a step back and looking at himself and being like, yeah, actually, you can't threaten to assault somebody's wife, um, To get information from them.
That's called a crime.
Instead, he thinks it's a big transgender conspiracy to target him and him alone.
And that's the kind of hate that he has.
It's the kind of bigotry that is flowing through his veins.
Absolutely.
You know, I long kind of was of the impression that, you know, you could probably, kind of back in 2017, 2018, like, I felt like, you know, if I sat down with Chris Cantwell and, like, showed him some data about, like, for instance, like, race and IQ and that kind of stuff,
And like, had a really extended conversation with him to where he would listen to me as a cis man, you know, and as, you know, someone that if I could get him to, like, listen, I could probably show him the data that would convince him of that, but you could never convince him out of his misogyny.
That is such, like, built so clearly into, like, who he is as a person that he, it's just, it's unthinkable to him to not be a vile, disgusting bigot towards women and trans people and gay people and, you know, He's an awful human being and so I have no worries about making fun of him in this format.
It's going to be really interesting to see what the Feds pull up off of his devices.
Because they raided his house when he was arrested in a pre-dawn raid.
And the neighbors say that they were at his place for hours taking stuff out.
Computers and guns and all that stuff.
I think that it's pretty clear that there are things on his devices that will probably be implicating him and others in other federal crimes.
And it would not surprise me to see that there will be an upcoming superseding indictment, if there is.
I am certain there's some really dark shit that he's got about me and fantasies of killing me, which I hope is worthy enough for a charge because I would love to put him in jail again for a second time.
I would be happy to do that because he's somebody that, like, there is no... I don't see a path to redemption for him.
Like, he's incapable of seeing himself to be at fault in any way.
He's somebody incapable of processing feedback.
And as a result, he makes worse and worse decisions until, like, something bad happens.
Like, he gets thrown off-gab or he gets, you know, a door knock because he's praising Robert Bowers or the Christchurch shooter, right?
And, you know, trying to be edgy, trying to be cool.
That's who he is.
And then, until he has consequences, he can't understand.
He can't project.
Right.
No, I absolutely agree, Dan.
Yeah.
I mean, I think, you know, I won't speak for you, you know, I'm one of those, like, kind of lefty prison abolitionist guys, and, you know, sometimes people like me get a little bit of, you know, static from, you know, like, well, yeah, but you're, like, wishing, like, the prison system on this, like, violent neo-Nazi, and it's like, Chris Cantwell is seeing less results of the awful, awful things that he has said and done than someone who sold a bag of weed on a street corner.
Let's be realistic about what prison abolition really means.
I do not wish the American prison-industrial complex on my worst enemy, but that's the system we have right now, and I would love to abolish that, but we don't start with the fucking neo-Nazis, and that's kind of my answer.
Exactly.
I hope, you know, I hope that in my lifetime I can see every prison, every last prison close.
And when the last one closes, I hope he remembers to shut off the lights on the way out.
Fair, I think that's a beautiful sentiment in its own unfortunately dark way.
But yeah, did you have anything else for us about stories that the audience might not have heard, that I might not have told the audience, that can get us away from this particular... You know, people in my Twitter feed sometimes joke around about, like, I Don't Speak German being the darkest podcast in existence.
You know, there is a kind of like, you know, it's either this one or like, you know, some of Robert Evans' work, you know, like talking about like an American Civil War.
And it is like, we try to kind of keep this light, but I mean, the subject matter kind of demands it.
But it is worth kind of getting away from that sometimes.
So if you do have any other juicy tidbits for us, I'd love to hear it.
Yeah, I mean, so one of the things that is funny in all of this, funny in maybe a strange way, maybe not a ha-ha way.
But so during this lawsuit that he has against me, he's working with a couple of people, right?
And one of the people that he's working with is a woman that's in Charlottesville, and I'm not going to name her because she and I have made right, okay?
Like, I don't agree with her politics, but I don't believe that she's a bad person, but she was part of the organizing at the right, and she worked with Chris.
And she was working with Chris and Elmer on this lawsuit, and she's kind of a lonely person.
And as she's working with Chris, she's working with Chris and Jack Corbin to identify these people from Philadelphia.
I still have no idea who these people are, but they've linked me to them somehow.
And this person is also talking to me.
There were a couple people in Philly Antifa.
Yeah.
So there were a couple people in Philly Antifa who got arrested for assaulting a couple of random people at a, like, Proud Boy rally outside a Holocaust Memorial Museum.
And the entire far right turned that into, like, kind of a colossal lab of, like, this is the actual, like, violent Antifa is, like, a couple of people.
Who, from what I am told from people who were kind of, like, who knew them personally, you know, were like, yeah, these guys were always a little bit kind of out there.
And, like, we did disagree with their tactics and...
They went too far, now they're suffering the consequences for it.
And feeling Antifa, like, paid the medical expenses for those people who were inadvertently harmed, you know, sort of thing.
So, like, anyway, I just want to, like, make clear that, like, that's, like, that's literally the level of thing that Cantwell is using to smear you particularly, and then, like, all of Antifa gets smeared with, like, the random actions of those two people.
So, anyway, please, please continue.
I apologize for the interruption.
Yeah, so, so anyhow, he, um, As this lawsuit's going on, this woman is working with him, working with Elmer, working with Jack Corbin, but also talking to me and giving me all of the same information that she's giving to Chris and his lawyers.
So everything that Chris is doing, I've already got, and I'm not asking for this, right?
She's just messaging me this.
She's just emailing it and messaging me this.
So one of the things that I learned is that the reason that Chris thinks that I'm linked in with Philly Antifa is because we both happen to be at the Walmart parking lot.
I don't know any of the people from this group.
I've maybe tweeted at them once in my life.
That's it.
That's the extent that I know anything about it.
But he's convinced that the reason that I'm linked up with him is because sometime in early 2016, I posted on Twitter something about having a beer in Philly.
And he's like, he uses this as evidence, right?
He uses this as evidence that I'm, as part of my radicalization to become an Antifa.
This is when I linked up with Philly Antifa.
This is how I became a radical Antifa terrorist, according to him.
And so I look at this and I finally realize what it was and I die laughing because this whole time he's like going after me for being trans for like all of this stuff.
The visit that I went to Philly for was when I went for my surgery consult for like gender reassignment surgery.
So the whole thing that he's got as the key piece of evidence that I am the commander-in-chief of all worldwide antifa is the one thing that he finds the most repulsive or the most vile about me, which is that I went to a plastic surgeon to get a surgery related to being trans.
And the fact that, like, that's the actual thing is, like, his misogyny is so deep, so just vile, that, like, it's the only real way that you could possibly defeat that whole conspiracy theory.
I do find it interesting that I've been tweeting about him and podcasting about him and talking about him for years now.
I have been publicly tweeting next to you and next to Goad and Socialist Dog Mom and various people.
He has never said my name on air.
Not once.
I know for a fact That, like, my podcast and my tweets get shared in his Telegram group.
And he has never, ever bothered me in the slightest.
Like, on air, in any format that I have ever been aware of.
Except for, like, my stuff gets shared in the Telegram group.
And I find it instructive, you know, that that's true.
Yeah, I mean, it's certainly a thing.
He hates me, he hates Molly because we're women, because we're queer.
It's a deep amount of hatred that he has in his heart towards women.
And it's sad, but it's also something that I can take it and turn it into a force for good, maybe, I hope.
Can I tell one more story about Chris and his lawyer?
I've got all the time you want, believe me.
We're going to end, we're going to talk about the obsessive conspiracy theory that he's built up in his mind about what he believes is actually happening in the world.
As a way of kind of describing exactly the level of madness he's reached.
Because I may be the only person that really has the real, like, details on that because I've been following him so long.
But until then, you can tell as many stories as you'd like.
I'm fine with that.
Alright.
So, April of 2018.
Before he's pled guilty.
He gets bond violated for the second time.
And the reason he gets bond violated, so he's been posting threats about me.
He's been posting shit about me and Goat.
He's been threatening other people, right?
So this is a pattern that he has.
So he's been threatening people, and he gets hauled in before the judge, partly because of the threats, but also partly because he's loaded, right?
He gets wasted, and he's not on house arrest anymore, but he's in a radius that he can go to.
And there's a bar in this radius, and he's a drunk.
Um, so he goes out and he gets loaded, and he's walking down the middle of the street, and two cops watch a car nearly run him over.
So they pick him up and they bring him- He was walking through the middle of the street?
He was like- That's a detail I did not- Yeah, so he's like in the middle of the street, like according to the police.
Like, he's like stumbling between the median and like in the middle of the lane, right?
And the way he frames this is, like, the guy who's walking home drunk is the guy who doesn't get arrested in New Hampshire, but if he's literally in the middle of the street, that, like, changes the perspective just a little bit there, Chris.
Like, that's a detail that, you know, we kind of needed, and that is, like, a very, like, common method, right?
It's like, you just highlight, you just ignore the particular detail that makes the whole thing make a little bit more sense.
Anyway, please continue, so.
So he gets called in, and there's other stuff that's going on, right?
The cops, the UVA police who were prosecuting the case, or investigating the case, got an email from the FBI, or somebody purporting to be from the FBI.
And the agent's name was apparently something like Victoria Fields, or something like that, or Victoria Marsh.
It was Victoria Marsh.
And that's, like, I have my notes, and I wrote it down as Victoria Marsh.
But for some reason he writes it down, or he remembers it as Veronica Marsh.
And so he looks this up, right?
And then he files in a lawsuit that he alleges that, I have now impersonated an FBI agent.
And the basis was that the unaired Season 4 of Veronica Mars, the TV show from the early 2000s, the trailer for the Season 4 Episode 1, which never actually aired, included Veronica Mars being an FBI agent named Veronica Marsh.
And so alleges that I somehow took over an FBI email address and then emailed the UVA police saying that he had slipped his ankle monitor and was meeting with somebody in DC.
Now I don't like I don't know if this is somebody actually did this or somebody actually spoofed an FBI email address and because there's no other evidence that he did that but it certainly wasn't me but the idea that he like is so deep into this that he he is now bringing in an unaired season of a 17 year old or whatever TV show is a little bit, you know, goes to show the ridiculousness of who he is.
Kristen Bell, Kristen Bell is personally part of this conspiracy.
Yes, Kristen Bell is actually, Kristen Bell is the link between Antifa and the FBI.
It's a little known fact, but you've heard it here.
The whole of Veronica Mars, the series, was just cover to allow for the eventual collapse of Chris Cantwell personally.
Specifically.
Yeah, specifically.
Back in 2003, when that show first aired, Rob Thomas created that show specifically to cover Chris Cantwell.
So yeah, during this bond violation hearing, so I'm there, right?
I took a day off of work to go see this.
So I'm sitting in the courtroom, and his lawyer, Elmer Woodard, who is a character, is one way to put it, is arguing that... We could do a whole episode just about Elmer, honestly.
We're not going there, but please, yes.
So Elmer is arguing that his client should not have his bond revoked, or whatever.
And at one point, I'm in the courtroom.
So he calls me to the stand, which you can do.
So he calls me to the stand, and I'm like prepared, right?
So I came prepared.
And the prosecutor, Robert Tracy, who's the shittiest prosecutor in the world, is furious that I'm there.
He's like livid because he knows that this can be the case.
But I'm prepared.
I've got like paper copies of all of the threats.
I've got like IP access logs.
I've got the copy of the lawsuit.
I'm ready to prosecute this fucking case myself, right?
So he calls me up to the stand, and I'm like, alright, here we go.
And he goes, so first he goes, can you state your name for the record?
And I say, yes, Emily Florence Gorsenski.
And so he says this, and I'm thinking that he's going to try to get me for perjury by saying my name is Emily Gorsenski.
Because when he first filed the lawsuit, he filed it against my dead name.
So, he's trying to sue me under my dead name using male pronouns and all of that stuff, and he had to actually get two court orders, one from the local court, one from the federal court, to address me by my proper name and pronouns.
So, I'm thinking, like, oh, he's going to try to, like, ding me.
So, I've even got a copy, a certified copy of my name change form with me, right?
Um, so he's like, what's your name?
And I said, Emily Florence Gorsenski.
And then he just looks at me and goes, okay, you're dismissed.
And like, I look at him and I look at the judge and the judge looks at me and like, we both look at the prosecutor and we both like, all three of us throw our hands up and like, what?
And of course, like, I get off the stand before he can change his mind.
I'm, like, gone.
I'm, like, lightspeed back into the benches in the back.
And the judge goes, I'm sorry, what was the purpose of that?
And he says, well, I just wanted it on the record that, you know, she was She was here, and the judge is like, why didn't you just state that so that we could put it in the record without having to call her to the stand?
And he's like, oh, you know, I just didn't think of that, Your Honor.
And she's like, and what possible purpose could that do?
And this is like his magnum opus, right?
This is the moment that he's been building up this three and a half hour court hearing for, right?
And he goes, Your Honor, If she was so terrified of my client, how could she possibly be sitting in this courtroom?
And she just like throws her pen in the air and is like, I don't know, maybe the six armed bailiffs who are standing in the room?
And that was it.
And that was it.
And then the rest of the hearing was watching Chris explain on the stand painfully what a pinned tweet was and how my pinned tweet about our response to his lawsuit hurt him in a deep and emotional way.
And that he had to explain that, like, yeah, he's got 10,000 Gab followers, but I've got 20,000 Twitter followers.
And then he had to explain a bowl cut meme.
From the Bowl Patrol, which is now the group that he's in trouble over.
Which is the whole thing that his current arrest is about, ultimately.
And I'm kind of amazed that we've gone this far without even mentioning the fucking Bowl Patrol.
I need to get the transcript of this hearing, because this hearing is really gold.
I mean, at one point, Elmer presents a meme, or Robert Tracy presents a meme, Of Chris standing in front of the Reichstag in 1933 on fire, right?
And it's like, Chris photoshopped in front of the Reichstag.
And, um, something like that.
And, you know, Elmarine's trying to argue.
He's like, you know, some of these memes, like, I don't get them.
I think that they're vulgar, but they're just free speech.
Now the Reichstag one, now that's funny.
And the judge just like closes her computer and stares at him like, did you just say that in my court?
So I need to get this.
Like, I'm willing to spend money for this transcript, right?
This is the best court hearing you've ever seen.
I now want to bring you back just to go through this transcript together.
What we need to do is we need to get Socialist Dog Mom to put up her notes from this hearing, because at one point At one point during the hearing, Elmer, in like this sweeping Perry Mason gesture, like stands up in front of the court and like points his finger of his right arm out and sweeps it across the courtroom and points at Molly and is like, and that blonde woman there!
And he's like accusing her of terrorism or something because Elmer thinks that like Molly cut like a guy line to a telephone pole near his office or something and he like points at her to accuse her of some act of terrorism and the judge loses it on him she's like don't you ever point out a member of my gallery ever again and like it's like three hours of this it's all day going on of this hearing and it's just
This is, this is, this is, this is, this is the content that we come here for.
That's amazing.
So tell me about this conspiracy because I'm dying to know what he's been cooking up.
So he's been increasingly on the, you know, the whole world is against him and everybody is kind of working with Antifa and like the only reason anybody would ever go after him is to discredit white nationalism and so I'm gonna recommend
I'm not actually going to recommend that people do this, but if you do want to get a sense of the gravity of the conspiracy, there's a recent episode that he did with Brad Griffin, aka Hunter Wallace of Occidental Descent.
Brad Griffin is himself a vile disgusting human being, like among the worst people I like follow in this movement and he's one of the one guys who will still kind of work with Chris and will do like episodes with Chris occasionally and sort of likes him enough to sort of respect him in that sense which should tell you everything but So, if you go back and listen to the most recent one he did with Brad Griffin, you will get the absolute firehose of this, but his hypothesis is that
Back in the early days of the alt-right, that there was foreign interference in the U.S.
election.
But it wasn't Russian interference.
It was Israeli interference.
Because, you know, the Israelis could just spoof their IPs into Russia, right?
Okay?
And that...
And that Andrew Anglin glommed on to TRS, which were a force for good in this neo-Nazi movement, and subverted TRS.
That the Bolt Patrol guys glommed on to Chris Cantwell and were subversive agents trying to destroy Chris Cantwell.
And that Richard Spencer got hooked up with the Vanguard Streaming, the Goi Talk Live, that kind of crew.
And that all of those guys are actually Israeli agents who have come in to destroy white nationalism by destroying TRS, The Right Stuff, Richard Spencer, and Chris Cantwell specifically.
Those three individuals, because those were the respectable people who were actually trying to build white nationalism.
And that all of this is also being funded through like the ADL and the SPLC and you and I work for those organizations and the FBI is taking their cues from that organization and this whole thing was meant to destroy this burgeoning white nationalism thing by subverting it from the inside and that it's all part of one big conspiracy specifically to get at Chris Cantwell, right?
By this logic, just to be clear, you and me and Robert Mueller and the Mossad and Vic Mackey and, like, the Goitok guys are all working together in the pay of the ADL or, like, the big Jewish conspiracy, and that the schedule—this is something that came up in some of his legal filings—that the scheduling of the Science v. Kessler hearing
Which seemed to be just kind of randomly placed right around the end of December, early November, that the timing was to make it like a highlight of the news coverage at the time of the 2020 election.
And so this whole thing was meant to destroy Donald Trump's chance to be re-elected by smearing him as being connected to the laudable and glorious person that is Chris Cantwell, who has been unfairly destroyed by this giant foreign conspiracy.
It's obviously a conspiracy that involves only the most powerful state actors from multiple nations, right?
Because how else could a court filing quoting Hitler fail, if not for the interference of Mossad colluding with the FBI?
I mean, clearly, that's just...
That's good jurisprudence.
Quote Hitler.
You know what those judges are like?
They see Hitler in a document and they go, well this is clearly just ridiculous.
And that's not because Hitler's good name has been smeared through the mud and all that sort of thing.
One thing that I've never mentioned, I don't think, on this podcast is that there's this guy, Hadding, who calls into Chris's podcast.
He used to do it fairly regularly and he's kind of one of those other people that's still kind of hanging out there.
Hatting is one of these old-school neo-Nazi types.
I don't want to say neo-Nazi.
He's one of the old-school Nazi types.
He's a straight-up National Socialist and is clearly associated with CODOH.
That's the Committee for the Defense of the Holocaust.
Something like that.
It's a Holocaust denial organization, right?
And so it's one of those kind of old school Nazi websites from back in the 90s.
And Hatting is one of those guys.
And he's still kind of hanging out in Chris's Telegram group and stuff.
So Chris has gone full neo-Nazi.
There's no question about that.
It's just kind of one of those, it's just one of those things of like who is and is not a respectable source in terms of Chris's mind, is that having really reasonable, upright, upstanding guy, you are working with the Mossad and the FBI to destroy Donald Trump specifically.
Oh yeah, I mean absolutely.
And it makes sense because in his latest legal filing, the one that happened a day before he got arrested, he points out tweets that I made about like, you know, where did I learn my activism from?
And I'm fairly open about this, right?
Like I didn't always, I wasn't always a lefty, right?
I grew up in a Republican family, I used to be a Republican, like it was a learning process for me to come to where I am.
And so like part of it was, This experience of traveling and seeing movements throughout the world and studying the history of them and doing it in those places.
So I lived in Prague for a short period of time.
I now live in Berlin.
I've been to the Jan Palach Memorial in Prague where Jana self-immolated in protest of the Soviet occupation.
At Charles University, yeah, I've been there as well.
Right.
I've seen those places.
And so, I posted about how these historical movements, like Czechoslovakia in 1968, the Prague Spring, the Velvet Revolution in 1989, the revolutions throughout the Communist Bloc, from Romania and Hungary to the Baltics in the late 80s, all moved me.
The Philippines, what's happening there, what's happening in movements in Latin America.
Those are all things that I learned from to understand how do people subvert massive state powers.
And so he uses this as evidence that I'm colluding with foreign Antifa.
And it's like, yeah, Chris, in 2017, I traveled to 1968 Czechoslovakia to bring a bunch of Czech anti-fascists here to fight you.
That is definitely a logical thing that happened.
But the best part is, in one of his claims, he says that I traveled to the Museum of Communism.
Because, of course, I'm a communist, according to him.
I'm not a communist.
Sure.
According to him, I'm a communist, and clearly, therefore, I'm an enemy of the people, and as part of my communist indoctrination, and I traveled to the Museum of Communism.
Now, if you go to the Museum of Communism in Prague, you will never find And a venue that is more critical of communism than the Museum of Communism in Prague.
Their advertising materials say, we're upstairs from the McDonald's across the street from the Benetton's.
Like, it is the most snarky, like, critical thing of the communist era that you can possibly imagine.
But he doesn't know any of this, right?
So he's just like, ah, this is evidence she's a communist!
It's amazing.
I never visited the Museum of Communism, unfortunately.
Now I wish I had, but it is remarkable.
Now there's going to be this giant conspiracy that you and I have both visited Prague, and therefore that's just going to be another part of the conspiracy.
We're programmed into communism.
No, I never visited the Museum of Communism, but it seemed like a very kitschy tourist trap thing, so I just kind of stayed away from it.
Yeah, I mean, most things in that neighborhood of Prague are, which is part of the charm and part of, like, the irony of this whole thing being, like, they're leaning so hard into the capitalism now and hating the capitalism still, too.
Of course, Chris can't travel.
I mean, aside from being in prison, he can't travel overseas.
Yeah, that's the thing.
There's this complete lack of understanding.
Everything that he knows is what he's read in this far-right literature that's called libertarian.
He's very aware of this deep history of this libertarian thought and this very abstract Murray Rothbard, Hans-Hermann Hoppe kind of stuff.
But anything remotely outside of that, he has no understanding of history or culture or context or anything.
And the funny thing for me, and just wrapping up here, and again, not to apologize for him at all, is that in a lot of ways I find him to be a more reasonable voice than some of these other guys.
In the sense that he's like, look, if we're going to create an ethnostate in North America, we're going to have to work with the Republicans.
Sort of thing.
Like, we're going to have to enact policy on some level.
We're going to have to do something and compromise about who is and isn't white and that sort of thing.
He got kicked off of the Radio Arian website when he said to a caller that maybe white guys with Hispanic girlfriends might get to live in the ethnostate.
That's a good question that you could sort of like, you know, like put off until after the revolution maybe, until after we've like established the ethanol state, and then we can have that conversation, but for now we need more people.
Like, like Sven Longshanks, who I promise we'll do an episode about this guy at some point, so he's, if anything, he's even more ridiculous than Cantwell, literally kicked him off his website, which was syndicating and stuff, even at that point, for that statement alone, and he refused to kind of back off of it.
So, you know, Again, in terms of ideology, it's weird that Cantwell is something of a reasonable centrist in terms of, if you're going to be a Nazi, he's the reasonable, warm, gooey center, and yet his personality just completely puts everyone off of him and he cannot work with anyone.
Just to highlight, when he got out of jail, if he had been able to stay on a path of not fighting with everyone around him, he could have been the biggest name in this movement.
Like he was venerated as a hero for going to jail and all that sort of shit.
And he threw it all away.
Yeah, no, totally, totally.
Because he only follows the local gradient of whatever he thinks will make him most popular without any long-term vision.
And so he's always feuding.
So he found the bull patrol to be edgy, right?
So he's always reacting to whatever we are finding abhorrent.
So when the Bull Patrol was doing all of this Abhorrent stuff and we were talking about it, that's why he latched on to the Bull Patrol.
He's like, oh, if Emily and all these lefties, all the reds, are against the Bull Patrol, I better be with the Bull Patrol.
And then he does that, and so he syndicates their show for a little bit until It becomes a bad idea, probably because the Feds came knocking.
Let's be honest.
He took everything one step further.
Especially because Jack was working with Robert Bowers, and Chris is praising Robert Bowers, so all of that happened.
And then he ends up pissing off the Bull Patrol.
It's not my story to tell.
So I'm not going to tell it.
But I'm going to tease it.
Because hopefully, someday it comes out.
A lot of his fight with the Bull Patrol happened because there was a deplatforming war going on.
And Chris believed that the Bull Patrol was deplatforming him from MailChimp and other platforms.
And the Bull Patrol was also getting deplatformed.
And they believed that it was Chris.
I have no reason not to believe that that's true.
I just say that there's a story in all this, and I'm glad that they believe that this is true.
And maybe one day, in a few years, I'll come back on in episode 433, and we'll tell that story.
If we're still doing this podcast when we get to episode 433, that's gonna be a... Like, we will have lost by that point, I can assure you.
But yeah, hopefully it doesn't get that far.
If people want to pay me, that would be the... If people want to pay me to do this, we will do it as long as people, you know... If I can make a living at this, that would be great, but unfortunately, I don't, so... Yeah, you know, there's so few of us that are actually doing this work in a meaningful way, and having an impact doing it, that really, it shouldn't be that hard to pay us for it, and we should get paid for it.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, you know, that George Soros check just never seems to come.
Like, the ADL just never seems to, like, knock on my door and say, like, hey, we'd love to give you, like... I mean, when I think of what, what... This is not, like, begging for money here, but when I think about, like, what I could do with the amount of money that Chris Cantwell had...
In Bitcoin, at the time that he got... When I think about the amount of money he, like, completely blew through, possibly on methamphetamine or cocaine, you know, whatever, when I think of, like, I'm literally sitting here trying to scrounge for, like, a few hundred dollars for, like, technical improvements of things, you know, and, like, the amount of money that these guys just completely blow through is... It blows my mind, you know, when they think that we're, like, the well-funded, like, you know, version of this.
Let me tell one more short story before we wrap up.
Specifically about the Bitcoin, because it's a great segue to end on.
Sometime around mid-2018, Bitcoin crashed.
It lost like two-thirds of its value.
And this crash was coincident with Chris Cantwell's lawyer getting fed up that he hadn't been paid.
Now, I want to highlight just briefly here, because Chris Cantwell was egging everyone to get into Bitcoin just before the moment the whole thing crashed.
And I think that was part of the, like, everybody started hating him, is that he got them all into Bitcoin right at that moment where it crashed.
Anyway, please continue with the story.
So his lawyer is like about to drop him because he's not paid.
So he's been aggressively fundraising Bitcoin.
He probably raised a hundred grand in Bitcoin while he was in jail.
So he has to dump all of his Bitcoin to pay his lawyer right after the crash.
So he loses like two-thirds of the value of everything that he raised and he's pissed off and he writes like these really like emo blog posts about it.
And then as soon as he cashes out, Bitcoin goes right back to where it was!
In a span of like a week, he cashed it out at like the one moment that was like the worst possible time to cash it out.
So all of the money that he raised, he probably raised 100 grand and then ended up with like 20 grand to pay his lawyer or whatever.
And then his lawyer still ended up dropping him or trying to fire him anyways.
He ends up selling his guns to pay Elmer.
This is something that he talked about on the show where he had to sell his guns.
He essentially sold his guns to Elmer or sold the guns in order to pay Elmer.
I'm not sure exactly how that transaction happened.
This is kind of his accounting of events so who knows what the kind of reality was.
But apparently he was trying to convince Elmer.
To sell them as, like, you know, Chris Cantwell's gun.
Like, this is the gun that was featured in the Vice documentary.
You know, this is the thing he carried.
This is the thing, like, as a way of, like, getting, like, other white nationalists to, like, pay a premium for, like, this, like, souvenir gun.
And Elmer's like, yeah, fuck you, I need the money.
And just sold them at, like, bargain basement prices to, like, to sell the legal bills.
And then, of course, what does Cantwell do immediately afterwards?
He starts buying another gun because he's absolutely terrified that, like, the big scary Antifa is going to come and, like, kill him.
When, you know, I have, I have, um, you know, I don't know how you identify yourself, you know, I have issues identifying myself with Antifa directly.
We call this an anti-fascist podcast.
Journalist, activist, doing whatever.
I don't know what I am.
It's fine.
I have no problem with it.
I don't want to do the Stolen Valor thing.
It's kind of my issue with that.
To the degree that I get to speak as some, like, affiliate or some, you know, connection to the anti-fascist movement, believe me, the last thing that we need to do in order to neutralize you, Chris, is to actually do anything physically to harm you.
Just highlighting the things that you say publicly.
In your legal filings is enough to completely neutralize everything that you do.
So, congratulations.
You lose.
That's the end of it.
Yep, he's played himself.
So, just to finish off, just the thing with the legal, I want to kind of throw this in at the end, I apologize for taking a little bit more of your time, but he has, so he did lie from SEG when he was in jail in Charlottesville, and his buddy Jared Howe, who's like the last person still publishing on his website, Um, does a podcast called So To Speak.
And I used to pay attention to that, but it's really annoying for its own reasons, and like, it's a deeply stupid podcast.
Anyway, I tuned back in once Cantwell was arrested, because I knew if anyone would talk about this, it would be Jared Howell.
And it did not disappoint, because Cantwell, he has recorded segments to go on to Jared Howell's podcast.
And to date, all he's done is just complain about the jail and complain about the food and that sort of thing.
Like, he's in good spirits.
But they're selling this idea that the whole thing they've got Cantwell on is the clearly kind of hyperbole over-the-top threat of, like, I'm gonna come after you and fuck your wife, sort of, like, that sort of thing.
And not like the, I'm going to, like, expose your identity and sell you to C.I.A., to Child Protective Services.
You know, and they're just kind of, like, ignoring that little bit of the actual threat and going into the, like, hyperbole bit and going like, well, clearly no judge is going to actually pay attention to this.
And I say this all as preface of, like, what do you think the status of his, like, legal arrangements is going to be here in a year?
Like, do you think he's going to end up serving time?
And I apologize for kind of landing this on you.
I don't know.
But what's your prediction?
Yeah, so, I mean, the Feds have been looking at him for a long time.
And I absolutely think that he's going to serve time.
I mean, the statute that they charged him with, the top charge is 20 years in prison max, right?
So he's going to serve a couple of years if he takes a plea.
And I think that maybe he's broken enough to take a plea at this point.
Because I don't think it's ambiguous, right?
I don't think that he's got much of a chance.
And I think that he's probably got a bunch of incriminating stuff on those computers.
He's probably exposed a lot of people because he was selling goods, right?
The Feds now have the full names and addresses and payment information of Everyone that has ever bought something from him and can then use that as probable cause to go after other people, right?
So I don't think that he's going to... I think that he's in a lot of trouble.
However, when he was paying a lawyer, his lawyer couldn't get him to shut up.
His current lawyer has zero chance.
And Chris, and his current lawyer's last name is Lavin.
I'm sorry, but Chris is, like, really not going to get along this time.
Chris is not going to trust that.
He's not going to trust that process at all, right?
With no disrespect to that public defender at all, but yeah, no.
We know Chris Cantwell is not going to trust that.
Right, and so I think that there's about a 0% chance that this guy is going to successfully get Chris to shut up, and I think it's going to be a matter of a couple weeks before Chris is recording and incriminating stuff in these jail phone calls.
I mean, he did it the last time, and if it wasn't for an incompetent prosecutor, he would have been sentenced to a couple years in prison for his charges.
I think that the Feds are not as incompetent and I think that they have a lot more on him.
And I think that they're going to use the threat of a lot more on him to get him to spill on other things.
So my anticipation is that there's more charges coming down the pipe.
There's more charges coming down the pipe pertaining to Charlottesville.
And we'll just see what happens.
And whatever happens, I know that I didn't commit any crimes and neither did my friends.
So I'll just sit here and watch and laugh.
Fair enough, fair enough.
No, I agree.
The one thing that I found really interesting, really instructive, is that he didn't file a motion against detention, and I think a lot of people were kind of questioning.
I think a lot of us were kind of looking at the juicy details of what exactly did the feds find in his home, because I think there's a lot of speculation that he's back on drugs, because there's a lot of... I mean, he does, he admittedly has a history of that.
This is not a legend.
Definitely has a history of drug use and alcohol abuse and all that sort of thing.
But there was this kind of speculation like, oh, they're going to find drugs, they're going to find all these hard drives and like what exactly he has and what exactly they found in his home would be a really interesting document to read.
And he chose not to contest detention for whatever reason.
But I think my speculation is like he didn't want that information to quite get out just yet.
Yeah, I mean he's basically fucked.
He's playing happy for the microphone.
I have a feeling, I think we're going to call this the final Cantwell News.
I think that's what we're going to call this episode.
But maybe with a question mark because there's no way that this ends here, right?
I'm going to be following Chris Cantwell around on the internet for the rest of my fucking life.
That's what's going to happen.
Yeah, no, totally.
Which makes me, which makes me, and I don't want to disrespect you here, makes me the true victim of Chris Campbell.
Well, you know, you have nothing but my respect because I can listen to about three minutes of his voice before I want to just, like, I need to, like, purge somehow.
Just, I need to, like, play with a kitten or something to purge my soul.
But I think he'll be quiet for a few months, aside from his phone calls or whatever.
I think he takes a plea.
I think he loses his guns.
I think that there's possibly more charges coming down the pipe.
But all of this, you know, it's speculation.
And maybe his lawyer, you know, I suspect his lawyer is very smart because A detention hearing.
So he still retains the right to request a detention hearing in the future.
And so getting more evidence would be good.
Because the Feds have been working him up since at least October of 2017.
If not earlier.
And, I mean, there are things that I can't quite really... I'm not prohibited from revealing publicly.
But it would be against my best interest to do so.
I can say for certain that they've been looking at him since before that, too.
I think the audience of this podcast knows there are things that can and cannot be said publicly in this format.
Sure.
We dance around certain things because there's information that we have that can confirm and there's information that we can't quite clarify.
I'll just say that they've had years to put together that detention memorandum.
And his lawyer has had five minutes to do it, and maybe there will be one in the future, but it's either going to be a detention memorandum or a sentencing memorandum, and I can't wait for that day.
Yeah, well, you know, again, the U.S.
carceral system is absolutely disgusting, but there is no, well, I'm not going to say there is no person that deserves to be in it more than Chris Cantwell, but there are very few, very few people who deserve it more than Chris Cantwell at this point.
I think that's a fair place to end it for now.
Emily, thank you so much for being a part of this podcast.
You're welcome back at any time you have more to say about literally any subject.
Please tell us where we can find you on the internet.
Yes, I'm on Twitter at Emily Gorsenski.
You can also find me at firstvigil, that's first-vigil.com.
And howhatesleeps.com.
Those are the two sites that I make.
Otherwise, I say Twitter is the best place, and I'm sure that if you follow Daniel, you'll see my tweets come across your timeline from time to time.
One last thing before we go.
So today's the Super Bowl.
Today's the Super Bowl.
Who have you got?
I do not follow this at all.
Okay, good, because I don't even know who's playing.
I just figured I'd throw that in there.
For posterity, to capture the moment.
Yeah, we're recording this on what is Groundhog Day, and Super Bowl Sunday, and Palindrome Day, because it's 02.02.2020, and so it's a little bit like the trifecta of these things, and that's the moment in which Emily and I got together to record this.
I like to think that there is a... I had to go to the grocery store yesterday and buy things, and that was not a pleasant experience.
In the United States, buying groceries on the day before Super Bowl Sunday, especially if you ever desire tortilla chips.
You just don't need to be in it.
Yeah, this is more... I had it ended and then we had to go off on this, but it's fine.
Thank you so much, Emily, for being here.
You can find me on Twitter at Daniel Lee Harper.
Please listen to all our episodes.
There's a ton of Cantwell stuff.
I don't even remember which episodes we did and did not do Cantwell news, but go and listen to them all.
It's going to be great.
So thank you very much, and we'll see you next time.
