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Nov. 22, 2019 - I Don't Speak German

01:11:45

Episode 36: The Groyper War

Another news roundup episode, in which Daniel tells Jack all about Nick Fuentes' 'Groyper War'. Plus we cover the recently released recording of Richard Spencer ranting that he should rule the world. Content warning. Links to follow.

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	Hello and welcome to I Don't Speak German, the anti-fascist podcast in which I, Jack Graham, and my friend Daniel Harper have conversations about the far-right's conversations.
	Daniel tells me what he learned from years of going where few of us can bear to go and listening to what today's far-right, the alt-right, white nationalists, white supremacists, Nazis, etc., Talk about and say to each other, in their safe spaces, their podcasts, their YouTube videos, their live streams, etc.
	The Waffle SS, I call them, and do they waffle.
	Daniel listened, so we don't have to.
	Needless to say, these are terrible people, and they say terrible things.
	So every episode comes with a big content warning.
	Daniel and I talk freely about despicable opinions and acts, and sometimes we have to repeat the despicable things that are said, including bigoted slurs.
	So be warned. 36, da-da-da.
	Newsroundup episode.
	Newsroundup 2.
	The Groypening.
	Say something, Daniel.
	It's an audio medium.
	You have to talk.
	I'm surprised I have to explain this to you at this late stage.
	You do.
	I know nothing about producing audio or radio or really anything about podcasts in general.
	What are these things called podcasts?
	I have no understanding of such.
	Such unprofessionalism.
	So yeah, news roundup two.
	The Groyper War.
	The Groyper War, which we should have talked about last week possibly, but we didn't want to edge anymore on Kevin Macdonald.
	We wanted to come all over him.
	I did not want to do such, trust me.
	Yeah, so go on, talk about the Groper War.
	What the fuck is the Groper War?
	Sure.
	So, just as sort of an introduction from the last episode, you know, I understand we sort of had this extended metaphor around the Greek question, and I do understand that we, you know, obviously Greek people have faced discrimination in various societies and in various places around the world, and there was never an intent to
	Sort of play like racism ad-libs there but to sort of demonstrate a point that you could kind of do this with any group and I did I did just want to kind of clarify I really listen to that and thought like yeah That could sound like I'm sort of like belittling that experience and that that certainly wasn't the point So I just wanted to throw that out there just as we as we kind of got started in this episode I genuinely hate the Greeks I
	But no, the overall response to that episode was pretty positive.
	I think people really kind of got the point of that and enjoyed the joke.
	But again, just to be clear on that, I certainly don't take that lightly.
	I find it amusing, also in this episode, that we're doing another News Roundup episode, and yet we are not going to be talking about Chris Cantwell at all, because he's increasingly irrelevant to everyone, despite the fact that there is always Cantwell news.
	There's more important news to cover today, so maybe we'll catch up on Cantwell in the next one.
	If he ever files his legal paperwork, maybe that will happen, or if the authorities decide to come after him for not filing the legal paperwork that he's owed them for several days now, his final deadline has come and gone and nothing is happening to him.
	Isn't it great to be white?
	Poor old Chris, plumbing new debts of irrelevancy.
	I mean I mean if he had stolen you know $200 or a car stereo then presumably they would care about Pursuing him legally, but no he's just a genocidal lunatic who has like assaulted people Based on racial issues, so so that's fine.
	That's basically you got a handhold those people, but you know if he was a person of color who like possessed a slightly greater amount of a controlled substance, and he was allowed to That's the person you really got to go after anyway That would be a serious matter.
	So yeah, today we're going to be talking about the Groyper War, and I do want to... I said that!
	Well, you said it, but I'm just clarifying that the Groyper is essentially the non-copyrighted Pepe.
	So the Pepe the Frog meme there was some there was a lawsuit the guy who created that original image is essentially sued people for using that and so they sort of have had to switch over to this very similar frog meme which is not under copyright.
	And so now there are Groepers as opposed to Pepes.
	And if all this is sounding very much like 2016, you're not alone!
	We're starting to see a resurgence of the kind of conflicts that we saw in the early days of the run-up to Trump's election.
	This is boding very well for 2020.
	Exacerbating the feeling I think we've all been having in the last few years of being stuck in a sort of hellish political Bermuda Triangle or one of those time loops from Star Trek.
	That's what it feels like.
	It's just, it's the, you know, there's this kind of metaphor from the early days of the web, the September that never ended.
	And this is, you know, this is where, so back in the day, before sort of like wide adoption of the internet in the mid-90s, basically you'd see students would come on the internet in the, like college kids would come on.
	Uh, and get, like, their first university email accounts, and they wouldn't know how to, like, use Usenet or use, you know, any of the web services.
	And so there'd be this sort of, like, couple-month period where people kind of, like, were just complete assholes because they didn't know what they were doing.
	And then, like, they would learn how to use it, and then it would be fine, and then, like, the cycle would repeat every September.
	And I believe September 1996 is called the September that never ended, as, like, wide adoption of the Internet just happened.
	And that's kind of the world we're all in, in terms of Nazis these days.
	Like, Nazism used to be a thing that never went away.
	It was always there.
	But now we're just kind of in a place where we just can't get away from it anymore.
	It's just a continuing flow in our society.
	And this is largely built on the backs of the social media era.
	Sorry, I was just thinking that metaphor.
	That's kind of a weird thing.
	Which has nothing to do with the Graeper War.
	So I guess we're going to have to move on from that.
	I guess, yes.
	Otherwise this will be the diversion that never ended.
	Yeah, we'll just never actually get to the topic that we're supposed to talk about.
	Anyway, so... I'm good at this.
	One of the things, I think we were both really happy with the last one.
	And the irony is, you know, that that was probably the least focused episode we've done to date.
	Except for this one, which is shaping up to be similar.
	And yet it's the one that is the most what Jack and I sound like just talking to each other privately.
	Yeah, I hadn't thought of that.
	Maybe that's why I like it so much.
	And so it's fun for us because it's the less formally structured one.
	So anyway, so the Groyper is kind of the new Pepe, and if you look, if you remember back to episode 1 where we talked about Richard Spencer, and don't worry, Richard Spencer is going to make an appearance in this episode, if you remember back in episode 1 where I talked about Richard Spencer and about sort of the origins of the term alt-right or alternative right,
	We highlighted the point that this is kind of an argument within the right-wing political sphere of the United States, or to a lesser degree kind of around the world.
	But certainly, you know, when Richard Spencer kind of coined the term, and actually it's Paul Gottfried who coined the term, but when it was adopted it was really sort of like taking this sort of alternative to the
	mainstream conservatism kind of conservatism Inc the neoconservative Cold War Republican Party politics and it was it was trying to create sort of an alternative to that like that was the whole point of the term and To a large degree the term alt-right has sort of Lost its valence.
	It's lost its importance and and you know, you don't it's kind of become Richard Spencer's personal brand again and But those divisions didn't go away and while I was off kind of dealing with the siege pill crowd and the kind of like literal terrorists who are plotting race war
	An old friend of ours, an old subject that I thought was just gonna kind of fade away into irrelevance, Nick Fuentes, has been slowly building his audience because he's basically the furthest right person who's still allowed on YouTube.
	When we did our episode on Nick Fuentes, he had a few thousand, you know, like three to seven thousand downloads or views per episode.
	Not downloads or views because he's on YouTube.
	Um, currently he's up to about like 50,000 or so and that's, uh, that happened when I thought he was fading into irrelevance.
	So, um, this is me, um, completely failing to understand kind of what was going on, which is a sign that I don't know anything and you shouldn't be listening to me at all.
	Yeah.
	Bye-bye, everybody.
	The show's over.
	Daniel made a mistake.
	I made a mistake?
	Well, I was kind of looking at him at that point and just going, like, who's going to pay attention to this, like, 20-year-old dipshit who spends all his time kind of like...
	Carrying water for the Trump administration in this increasingly disconnected from mainstream politics movement and Yeah, what's happened?
	Is that like in and this is this is predictable?
	I guess I mean it was something that I kind of thought might happen but as sort of the
	election airing wing of the movement has kind of kind of come back in the full swing and as the Party is starting to kind of like decided to kind of get behind Trump again You're seeing you know figures like Fuentes who have Maintained a distance from the sort of like overt Nazi stuff and have managed to sort of
	least maintain some level of plausible deniability, which I don't think there's any level of plausible deniability with Nick Flint is, but I'm not a fan of his or a fan of the general kind of policies that he supports, and I've actually spent more than 20 minutes paying attention to him.
	So I know who Nick Flint is, but most people do not, except for his fans, etc.
	But he has managed to kind of parlay behind the scenes a certain degree of cred within the more alt-light figures, within sort of the Milo Yiannopoulos crowd, which again I thought were kind of becoming increasingly irrelevant, which again I thought were kind of becoming increasingly irrelevant, and Milo himself kind of is, but there are kind of other figures that have maintained a certain degree of audience that Fuentes has
	sort of gotten close to, and increasingly but there are kind of other figures that have maintained a certain degree of audience that Fuentes has sort of gotten close to, and increasingly it looks like they So
	So, um, Fuentes' audience is, uh, you know, at least kind of purportedly, overwhelmingly, um, kind of young men, um, uh, Zoomers, as they say, you know, as, as the kids say, the Zoomer crowd, um, the people after, uh, after Gen X, after the Millennials, the, the kids who are, you know, between, uh, you know, like 15 and 22 or whatever, these are, these are high school and college kids, so.
	Yeah, yeah, all these, uh, all these Zoomers with their Homestucks and TikToks and things.
	Right and this is a crowd that I'm you know, I'm certainly not connected to anyone in that group or anyone who's sort of like Yeah, like I don't hang out with teenagers.
	Let's put it that way but Nick Fuentes is now 21 and
	He does hang out online with with this kind of age group and there is a kind of an increasing He's got an audience there and I think it's kind of fascinating because He really managed to kind of do this apparently and I've been kind of trying to catch up on him over the course of the last two or three weeks He has managed to sort of maintain an audience by distancing himself from the more overt
	Um, you know, kind of leaning into, like, Nazi imagery and that sort of stuff.
	Like, he doesn't do that.
	He kind of frames himself as this sort of, like, pro-America.
	I mean, his show is called America First, right?
	And it's a, uh, which is, you know, kind of a throwback to 1940s American fascism.
	It's a throwback to Lindbergh.
	Um, but, uh, it's also, you know, a term that's been kind of embraced by the Trump people back in 2015 and 2016.
	I mean, it's literally Trump's, you know, motto during the election.
	And by framing himself as sort of an American, as an America first conservative or an America first movement, he's managed to sort of distance himself from the kind of more overt, you know, kind of Nazi imagery.
	And he's managed to kind of embrace Trump while being able to be critical of Trump in a kind of a weird way.
	And he's also distanced himself from the alt-right in the sense of making his work explicitly religious.
	And not just explicitly religious, but explicitly Catholic.
	And as the person who has best managed to kind of walk that line of like saying the racist thing, but not using the, both not using the kind of predictable dog whistles, but also kind of doing it outside of both not using the kind of predictable dog whistles, but also kind of doing it outside of the
	Quote-unquote respectable public He has managed to kind of build an audience that way and by kind of framing himself as an overtly religious figure He's also been able to distance himself from kind of the Richard Spencers and Mikey Knox of the world and say no I'm not all right because that's kind of a non-religious.
	That's an atheist movement, which is never really true, but it's it's true and it's it's the way he's sort of threading that rhetorical needle right and So he's been building this audience when, well I don't want to say no one was paying attention, but when I was not paying attention.
	And over the last month or so, over the last say four to six weeks, Turning Point USA, which is a very kind of astroturfed conservatism inc.
	It's a Charlie Kurtz movement.
	Candace Owens used to work for that movement before she had, you know, nice things to say about Hitler.
	Yeah.
	If you recall that moment where she's like, oh, Hitler was fine, except for, you know, when he was just a nationalist working within his own borders, everything was fine.
	But when he was reaching outside his borders and doing more, like, globalist things, that's when he was the bad guy.
	That's right, yeah.
	Hitler was fine until he became too Jewish.
	Which I think Candace Owens just clearly either didn't know or didn't care what she was saying at that point.
	I don't think Candace Owens is pro-Hitler.
	I think she's a complete shill for whatever line she needs to in order to make money.
	Yeah, she's a brainless shill as you say.
	Well, I mean, she's certainly bright enough to know whose toes not to step on, except she managed to say the wrong thing.
	TPUSA has had a long history of hiring young people because it is an organization that is explicitly coded as a college kid kind of organization.
	I mean, Charlie Kirk himself is, I think, 24 or 25 years old.
	You know, this is not a guy who's, you know, got like, you know, years of political activism under his belt.
	He's a guy who sort of, like, becomes the figurehead of this organization and they're gonna get, like, conservatives make money by kind of being the kind of pro-free markets on college campuses group.
	And sort of pushing a, you know, we're kind of the, like, kinder, gentler Republicans in the sense of, like, we're totally in favor of, like, pro-capitalism and pro-markets, and we're okay with gay people as long as you vote Republican, etc., etc.
	So it's meant to be this sort of slightly less nasty version of, like, kind of mainstream Republicanism, right?
	Um, yeah.
	It turns out that they have a ton of racist dickbags who join that group because being a right-winger and being a Republican kid on a college campus today basically means that you've been consuming alt-right and
	Nazi material and when they kind of poke their head up and they actually say the thing say the quiet part loud They get shit can from their organization, but the TP USA is kind of designed to be this kind of explicitly It's meant to be a sort of sort of sugarcoating the the kind of implicit white supremacy That is just kind of a part and parcel of really American politics in general, but certainly Republican politics that's sort of the the point of TP USA right is to sort of yeah and Yeah.
	that group um and to sort of be the kind of pro-business pro-market etc etc and of course you and i have um you and i have no respect for that whatsoever but um it is meant to be it is meant to be like slightly less racist and slightly less like anti-lgbt and those sorts of things right yeah but it's it's weird isn't it how i mean it's almost as if there are some sort of some sort of connection going on under the surface that this um as you say this
	uh this millionaire billionaire funded astroturf astroturf organization for promoting free marketeering rhetoric and conservative social ideas keeps on accidentally completely without wanting to attracting and hiring um extreme right-wingers and fascists it's it's it's It's weird.
	Yeah, no, it's kind of amazing.
	It's almost as if there's a deep rot in not just American society, but within the right-wing politics itself that just sort of shows this.
	As if there's some kind of inherent structural connection between capitalism and white supremacy.
	Who would have thought that?
	Anyway, we're staying on target this week.
	We're staying on target this week.
	That can't be true, Jack.
	That just seems like something a radical leftist would say, and we are certainly- okay, it's fine.
	I can't even complete that sentence, so we're good.
	So TPUSA is sort of this- God's sake, man, stop digressing.
	Stay on the topic.
	And so TPUSA is this, um, you know, kind of this scion of, like, Astroturf movement conservatism, right?
	Um, that maintains a certain rhetorical distance from its racism, uh, despite being, you know, functionally just as racist as the rest of them.
	Um, but it's also, like, very active, I mean, it's explicitly something that kind of happens on college campuses.
	And there are these sort of, like, um, parallel groups, like this group, oh god, what's the, YAF, I think it's Young Americans for Freedom, although I think it might be the Young American Foundation.
	I can't remember.
	There are a bunch of these kind of groups that all have similar names, and their explicit purpose is to, you know, basically bring, you know, young right-wing people into, you know, to groom them for positions within kind of Republican politics and right-wing politics, and to kind of bring them into this organization.
	And so this group Has started doing this, you know, what they call a culture war tour, right?
	So they're going around to various events, mostly on college campuses, and doing like these kind of speaking engagements.
	So like Charlie Kirch is kind of doing this, Ben Shapiro's been doing some of these, this politician named Dan Crenshaw, who if you, he's a kind of a neocon, I think a congressman, and he's the one who has the, he's the one who has an eyepatch.
	If you've seen him around, among the far right, they call him Eyepatch McCain, because he's basically, policy-wise, he's a reincarnation of John McCain, who they think of as a softie cuck, because he's not against immigration, and he is pro-war, so they think of him as basically an Israeli shill.
	A shill for the Jews, if you remember the last episode, they always think the Jews are in charge of everything.
	So, there are a ton of these events kind of going on, and Nick Fuentes has decided to encourage his audience, who he's calling, and I want to make sure that you hear me correctly, the Knicker Nation.
	Knicker, with a CK.
	Although, if you say it wrong, it sounds like a slightly different word, and trust me, that is intentional.
	So, the Knicker Nation is encouraging these people, the Groipers, what he's calling his audience, to go to these events and ask questions during the Q&A portion, and ask them things that imply that Nazism is the correct way to be.
	For instance, one of the questions that got asked was, you know, what does anal sex have to do with pushing a kind of conservative agenda?
	Because there's a kind of right-wing gay man on the stage.
	Actually, an African American man, as I recall.
	I forget his name.
	But they sort of like ask those kinds of questions.
	They ask questions about, you know, if you had to choose between, you know, a policy that supports Israel or one that supports America, which one should we choose?
	And this level of political activism is considered really verboten and really aggressive by the standards of this sort of like far-right movement in America because ultimately the point is to exposed the lie within the sort of the sort of conservative you know in their mind it's to expose the lie that ultimately yeah you're just shilling for the jews quote-unquote you're just shilling for um you're not really pushing a right-wing agenda
	you're not pushing an america first agenda you're pushing um this kind of like pro-corporate um you know against america's interest against the american kind of white middle class etc etc agenda um which obviously these groups are pushing that agenda uh but not because the jews made them do it you know um and uh by asking these questions it actually created uh by basically stacking the audience so you know if there are like 10 questions asked at one of these events eight of them would be you know nick
	nick flint is his fans um and so they would just kind of like keep these kinds of questions going on over and over again and if you sort of know the background of this movement you know kind of the background of this kind of like far-right ecosystem you can recognize that these are all intended to sort of like push buttons and make people push them further and further in this kind of more overtly racist more overtly you know from alt-right um white nationalist uh position and against this sort of like pro-corporate position um
	Which there's not necessarily too much of a difference between them, although they think there are anyway.
	Basically what I'm saying is it's exploiting the internal divisions within movement conservatism versus this grassroots, quote-unquote, populist, right-wing, America-first, white nationalist movement.
	By coming up and asking these questions, all hell broke loose on the far right over the course of the last month.
	And by which I mean, every single one of these fucking shows that I'm listening to is talking constantly about, like, the fucking Knicker Nation, and it's amazing.
	Even the even the more overtly like siege-filled crew are sitting and now like you gotta hand it to to Nick Fuentes because he's exposing the lies within you know TPUSA and those cucks and Pushing their audience further and further right and kind of like exploiting the fact that you know the people who you know TPUSA has to kind of paper over the thing that they're actually supporting they have paper over this sort of thing that
	It's actually kind of going on behind the scenes as a way of kind of keeping their sort of corporate donor money, right?
	Like that's, you know, so they'll never really push like a kind of a... TPSA will never push a, you know, let's export all of the brown people from the United States position, despite the fact that, you know, most of their membership probably agrees with something like that position with, you know, like some, you know, nominal like, oh, except for like friends of ours or whatever, you know.
	Yeah.
	This even came to a head where like Ben Shapiro gave a 48 minute, I think a 48 minute speech about this kind of Groper Nation, this kind of insurgency among the far right.
	Without ever mentioning Nick Fuentes' name, which is an impressive feat!
	And Nick Fuentes has gone on his show and he has been gloriously reveling in the fact that movement conservatism is absolutely terrified of him for the last, like, four weeks.
	I've been catching up on his show and it's literally just, you know, every show is.
	What's going on in the Groyper Wars?
	What's going on with the Groypers?
	My Groyper Army?
	The Knicker Nation?
	The Knicker Army?
	They're all, like, coming up and they're asking the questions.
	And I want to be clear here.
	These are not people doing, like, actual activism.
	These are not people doing something that's, like, materially affecting the real world.
	These are people going to Q&As and asking racist questions.
	This is what amounts to, like, an actual sustained assault on movement conservatism within this world.
	Wow.
	So the aim is to... I mean, what specifically?
	What is the practical aim?
	Or is there not one?
	Is it just to jab at these people who they think of as hypocrites or dishonest?
	Right, I mean, it is to jab at them.
	It's to make them kind of run away from questions.
	Like in the very last one of these events, like the day before yesterday's recording, or Friday, Charlie Kirk Gave a very sparsely attended event and had like a TV on a table next to him and Kind of expose like and then show like yeah, you want you're looking for like pro-trump Republicans, right?
	That's the thing that that's the thing you want to be you think that you're you're a pro-trump Republican and then revealed back in like Nick Quintus's high school Radio days there was like a video of him like expressing skepticism towards Donald Trump and he thought that was gonna like completely destroy the gripers It didn't work at all.
	In fact, they hounded Charlie Kirk out of his own event, and Nick Fuentes, in playing this footage on his show, is ecstatic, clapping.
	He looks like a monkey with cymbals, you know, the little toy monkeys, you know?
	Yeah.
	That's almost literally what he looks like.
	And the whole point is just to humiliate these guys.
	You know, the whole point is to show them, in their minds, for the frauds that they are.
	To show them as these ridiculous figures who can't answer the real questions about who actually pays your salary, quote-unquote, the Jews.
	The Jews, they control everything, right?
	And that's kind of the point.
	And let me be absolutely clear on this.
	I mean, we did an episode where we covered Nick Fuentes and James Allsup together.
	I recommend, if you haven't listened to that episode, please go back and listen to that episode.
	Nick Fuentes, he plays a good game in terms of not being quite as racist.
	But I mean, Nick Fuentes is absolutely exactly as racist as a Richard Spencer or Mikey and Ike.
	There's no light between them in terms of racism, in terms of denial of the Holocaust and that sort of thing.
	Nick Fuentes is smart enough to, whenever he says anything about that, he codes it in this kind of language.
	There's a clip that I shared during that, when we did that original episode, where Nick Fuentes is asked by one of his audience members, how long does it take to bake six million cookies?
	And it's clearly a reference to the Holocaust, you know, in terms of the trope that you couldn't burn that many bodies in X amount of time, which is complete nonsense.
	But Nick Fuentes answers it in a way that is clearly as, oh, there must have been 15 ovens in four different kitchens, and, you know, you couldn't burn the ashes because it takes an hour, and it's clearly You know, he's reading it as, you know, it's a joke about the Holocaust.
	He's absolutely a Holocaust denier.
	But he doesn't say, I deny the Holocaust.
	In fact, when he's asked directly, you know, Nick, do you deny the Holocaust?
	His question is, why would anyone deny the Holocaust?
	Oh yeah, nicely done, Nick.
	We see what you're doing.
	So he avoids being quite that overt.
	Whenever he talks about Jewish influence, he contrasts it with Christian influence and Christian values as opposed to Jewish values.
	Um, but he still sits and whines about the Jews.
	In fact, he, uh, refers to this guy, um, uh, I forget, I forget which guy this is.
	It's one of these kind of movement conservatives and figures, but he's like, um, you know, whining about him.
	He's like, you work for Jews, Will.
	You work for Jews.
	And it's clearly like...
	I mean, you know, it's overtly anti-semitic.
	It's overtly, like, this Nazi ideology, but he manages to kind of, like, keep it just on this line of being, like, that kind of vaguely acceptable figure.
	And he still keeps his YouTube channel, and it's kind of amazing.
	I'm actually, like, really impressed at how well he's managed to kind of toe that line so far.
	Although I wonder, with his new notoriety, exactly how long he's going to stay on YouTube at this point.
	We'll see.
	But yeah, no, that's, that's who Nick Fuentes is.
	He's not, he's not an alt-right figure.
	He's not one of the kind of like coded figures.
	He's very much overtly, he's very much overtly a, you know, kind of far-right ethno-nationalist white nationalist figure.
	But he seems to have managed to develop and successfully perpetuate that aspect of the alt-right that was very key to it, certainly in the early days, you know, 2016, 2017, of sort of always dancing on the edge of quite saying it and using a hefty amount of performative irony to give yourself plausible deniability.
	He seems to be, whereas a lot of them, I mean for a lot of them that seems to have collapsed, especially after Charlottesville.
	He seems to still be getting away with that at least for the time being doesn't he?
	Yeah, at least for now and it is because like, you know So few people are really paying attention to him that are outside of his audience and so we'll see and he has been making inroads to this to these kind of alt-right crowds and There's something there's something important here that that also kind of plays up to you know this this week or last week we also had a
	Revelation, the Michael Edison Hayden over at the SPLC, formerly of Newsweek, published a series of emails that came from this, kind of revealed by this person who used to be kind of in this kind of alt-right movement, conservatism, fearless sphere back in the 2016-2017 era.
	2016, 2017 era.
	She was someone who was being groomed to be kind of a person kind of working in politics who had these kind of alt-right, far-right, distant-right, white nationalist beliefs who sort of left the movement at some point and then brought a bunch of emails along with her from Stephen Miller. white nationalist beliefs who sort of left the movement at Now, Stephen Miller, who is, let's be clear, who is Jewish himself.
	It's the kosher sandwich again, right?
	So Stephen Miller, who is himself Jewish, who is basically the, A, former, like, went to Duke University with Richard Spencer.
	They went to school together.
	They were buddies.
	People remember Stephen Miller at the time as being this, like, overtly racist, you know, kind of white nationalist figure.
	There's no doubt about who Stephen Miller is now or has been.
	He is definitely this kind of guy.
	And he's been the one behind the scenes pushing for a lot of the, like, restrictions on immigration and the restrictions on this The kind of pushing for the border wall.
	He's been the most overt figure in those terms within the Trump White House.
	There's never really any doubt to anybody who was paying attention who or what he was.
	Right.
	There's been really no question to anybody who's paid attention.
	But Katie McHugh brought a ton of emails and I kind of gave those over to the SPLC.
	Mike Hayden wrote a series of pieces going through these and kind of demonstrating, you know, to anyone who's paying any bit of attention that, you know, there is an overtly white nationalist edge to Stephen Miller's things.
	I mean, he's kind of reading from Videre.
	He's sharing stuff from American Renaissance.
	I mean, these are kind of the more, you know, kind of quote-unquote intellectual sides of this movement.
	Well, these are overtly white nationalist movements.
	These are overtly white nationalist organizations.
	This isn't coded, right?
	A few months ago, again, a Mike Hayden piece, he revealed this guy, Coach Finstock, Matthew Q. Gerbert, I believe, who was a buddy of Mike Enoch's.
	He was being groomed for a high-up position.
	He worked within the State Department of the United States.
	He was being groomed to be kind of a high-up figure in a few years.
	There's absolutely this overtly white nationalist crowd within movement of conservatism, within people in high-up positions in the U.S. government absolutely believe this stuff and are absolutely in this.
	But they're not supposed to say it out loud, right?
	And I think that's what's interesting here.
	I think that's what's really kind of essential to...
	To kind of understand this or to sort of like get, you know, kind of what's really going on here, is that what Fuentes is doing is he's kind of forcing it, he's not willing to let, to let the coded language be good enough, because in his mind it's not good enough.
	I mean, he wants to push them further and further to the right.
	He wants to make it an overt thing.
	And that's what I find interesting about, like, kind of what's playing what we might see during the 2020 election.
	Because there is going to be this battle again between kind of movement conservatism, between the people who kind of get the funding and the base who wants them to be kind of further and further right.
	If you recall, or you may not recall, if people kind of remember back in the 2015 era, the term cuck-servative kind of hit the mainstream in a real way.
	And that was a TRS meme.
	That was from the right stuff.
	That was from the Daily Showa.
	I don't think they coined it originally, but they certainly spread it.
	And it was because of them that they managed to sort of get this into, like, the mainstream conversation through social media and through kind of, like, spreading this through, you know, kind of similar memes.
	Similar memes. Meme. Meme. Meme. Meme. Meme.
	Similar memes, anyway.
	Sorry, I say memes so often that I can't say a word that isn't memes.
	But through similar memes.
	They've been able to, you know, in that case it was, you know, basically kind of bombarding, like, you know, comment sections and that sort of thing.
	It was, you know, using social media in that way.
	And here what Fuentes has done is actually sort of, like, mobilize people IRL.
	He's actually gotten people to, like, get off their couches and get away from their computers and go to IRL events, which is something that, like...
	The alt-right really is, other than a brief period in summer 2017, nobody ever wants to leave their fucking couch.
	That's kind of the issue.
	I think that's an interesting move.
	That's sort of something that we'll see if this continues, if they're able to do more than just get in front of a microphone and ask a stupid question.
	But the fact that this is actually mobilizing in real life is kind of fascinating and it does kind of make me wonder what's really happening moving forward into what next year's election is really going to look like.
	Because we might see a whole lot more of this.
	I think Fuentes has kind of moved away from it.
	I think he kind of declared victory and realized that, you know, it's not going to it's not going to keep going.
	But like he's getting a lot of support from some really, really far right white nationalist figures right now who think it's great that he's managing to kind of push this into to kind of push this meme space into the mainstream.
	And I suppose in that world, this counts as a major coup, doesn't it?
	Oh yeah, absolutely.
	And I'm trying to compare it to... I'm trying to think of what would be a similar thing on the left.
	If you had showing up to Kamala Harris events and asking about the prison industrial complex or something.
	I mean, you know, like, you could do kind of similar things.
	It doesn't really work because, like, you know, leftists tend not to, like, code what they believe in.
	You know, there's not a sense that, like, you know, actually, you know, Kamala Harris is a communist and just kind of hiding her beliefs behind, you know, this kind of neoliberal machine or something like that.
	Whereas I think, you know, the, you know, someone like Charlie Kirk is, You know, I don't think he's an overt white nationalist.
	I see no evidence of that.
	But, like, certainly the sort of the encoded white supremacy that's just kind of, like, buried within, they have to kind of put a gloss on that.
	And what these kind of gripers are doing is, you know, revealing the, you know, taking the mask off, you know, off the Scooby-Doo villain, ultimately.
	Yeah, I think the equivalent on the left would be more like tankies disrupting DSA meetings, maybe.
	I don't know.
	Yeah, it makes you wonder, not just what the coming year is going to be like in this respect, but also about long-term developments.
	I mean, it's long been a practice of very right-wing movements to, when you say infiltrate, that makes it sound a bit melodramatic.
	Spy shit, but to kind of get their guys into, as you say, movement conservatism.
	I mean, there's lots of instances of very right-wing guys who've been kind of inserted into, you know, good careers inside the Republican Party and maybe ultimately in the White House, etc.
	from these sorts of organizations that sponsor and foster and push these guys that are very right-wing indeed.
	That's happened a lot.
	And yeah, it's like Fuentes is trying to disrupt that, I mean, you know, TPUSA is a bit like part of that official pipeline, you know, it's like a good old-fashioned GOP campus recruitment system.
	And I don't know, I mean, is Fuentes trying to shut that down as an alternative pole of attraction for young right-wing guys of college age?
	You know, he wants them to come his direction instead of into that normal, you know, far right to movement conservatism to GOP pipeline.
	Is that the plan?
	I mean, the whole point, and this is and we'll get to Richard Spencer in a moment.
	But I mean, the whole thing, and again, I've said this from the very first episode of this podcast, it's something that's been very overt within this movement.
	The whole point is to sort of make racism OK to say out loud again.
	Yeah.
	Is to, is to reveal that, is to say, like, no, we want to do this because we're white and because we want to have a white ethnostate.
	We want to have, like, we want to do what's good for white people again.
	and um flint as well coded as like the founding stock of america or what or you know he uses that that kind of language but it's it's overtly it's overtly white and he will use like kind of overtly racialized language um in many cases but he kind of he often kind of codes it in that way but um that's been the whole point of this all together the whole point is to kind of like like uh get into these uh movements and to not allow them not to you know say what they really mean anymore you know um and to sort of push the policy wise
	um away from this kind of this kind of coded thing this kind of um more kind of quote-unquote pro-market thing and into kind of overtly no this is for white people we want this to to actually work for white people white people are the people who are voting for the republican party you should be working exclusively for the interests of white people that's what you should be doing you know period um and um so they want to alter the entire conservative conversation really
	so that it it goes back to being acceptable to be overtly racist and and white nationalist within the I mean, they want to be like Dixiecrats again.
	They want to be kind of pro-segregation.
	They want to go back to...
	You know 60 years ago they want to just they want to like take that take that sheen away from this kind of like anti-racist or you know like not quite racist position that that the sort of establishment has taken and they want to make it racist again and they want to make it okay to be racist and that's the whole that's the whole thing they're doing and so by exposing the quote-unquote lies within these organizations by exposing how
	You know, Charlie Kirk can't answer a question from, like, these Gropers, which, let's table that for just a second, but by, in their mind, kind of doing that, the whole point is to reveal the hollowness of these organizations, to reveal them as astroturfed, and to kind of force them to engage with this kind of explicitly racialized politics.
	Now, Richard Spencer has had quite a bit to say now.
	Richard Spencer is, there's no love lost between Richard Spencer and Nick Fuentes, and I guess, before we get into that, we should reveal, people really wanted us to talk about this, like Richard Spencer leaked audio.
	I've got the text in front of me.
	This is, so.
	Well, speaking of people, it was always obvious who they were if you were paying attention, I mean.
	Right.
	Didn't you listen to episode one?
	I explained this already, you know.
	Yeah, you know I do have this moment of like no I recorded that episode already didn't everybody listen to that don't we do I still have to keep talking about it Oh, I guess I guess you know and also but when the when the tape came out You know lots of people being surprised.
	I mean what where have you been you know?
	And so I'm reading this transcript this is from this is from Vox and I'm gonna I'm gonna bleep the the racial slurs But we'll keep the rest of the swearing in and this is this is this is Richard Spencer speaking honestly And this was a bit of audio that kind of came out right it was recorded supposedly and I believe this it does sound like you know kind of accurate that In the aftermath of the Unite the Right rally, right after Heather Heyer was murdered.
	And he says, you know, we are coming back here like a hundred fucking times.
	I am so mad.
	I'm so fucking mad at these people.
	They can't do this to fucking me.
	We're gonna fucking ritualistically humiliate them.
	I'm coming back here every fucking weekend if I have to.
	Like, this is never over.
	I win.
	They fucking world.
	That's how this world fucking works.
	Little fucking and then slur for Jews.
	They get ruled by people like me.
	Little fucking octaroons?
	Which is...
	A reference to like mixed-race like kind of you know mixed-race African American people Which you know if you're using like that was a meme that was kind of a term that you kind of heard within this Scene around that time, but like that's some old-school fucking racism there like that's why it's almost okay for me to say it here just because it's like that's bizarre fucking racism and They look up and see a face like mine looking down at them.
	little pieces of fucking shit.
	I rule the fucking world.
	Those pieces of fucking shit get ruled by people like me.
	They look up and see a face like mine looking down at them.
	That's how the fucking world works We're gonna destroy this fucking town.
	Now, some defenders of Richard Spencer claimed this could not be his voice.
	It didn't sound like him.
	I can assure you it sounds exactly like Richard Spencer.
	Richard Spencer has said almost exactly this in a less angry way in many, many places.
	Anybody who spent as much time as I have listening to Richard Spencer talk knows this this is definitely Richard Spencer And that's exactly how he felt about it right after the Unite the Right rally I mean he appeared on the Daily Show and said essentially this just without so many of the slurs etc You know like this this is how he felt at that time And they did they went back at least one more time for the UTR 3.0 Which was sort of a flash mob event.
	I mean this was this was kind of the you know This is this is this is 100% accurate.
	This is absolutely this is real so What I find interesting is like these pieces of fucking shit get ruled like me Get ruled by people like me.
	They look up and see a face like mine looking down at them.
	That is so Richard Spencer That is so like the way he feels about it like people who look like me are This is Richard Spencer in a nutshell, and I think it's great that people finally got to hear that, but the actual using the slurs did not surprise me as much.
	in the society and the fact that I am not in charge of them utterly and the fact that my boot isn't in their face is a sign that the world isn't working the way it's supposed to.
	This is Richard Spencer in a nutshell and I think it's great that people finally got to hear that but the actual like using the slurs did not surprise me as much like he was clearly angry like of course he's going to do this but that's really the line that I hope people will focus on from that.
	So Richard Spencer has been going on, he did both a show on his own kind of MPI Radix YouTube channel, but he also went on JF Gary Eppie's show and kind of talked about these issues and about like kind of the Knicker Nation and Nick Fuentes.
	And again, just to be clear, there's no love lost between Richard Spencer and Nick Fuentes.
	In no way.
	They have had a long and public falling out over the course of the last two years.
	They do not like each other.
	They are not fans of each other.
	Well, what do you know?
	I have something in common with both of them.
	mostly for interpersonal reasons, more so than some actual difference in policy.
	But they've mostly kind of refrained from commenting on the other for the last little while.
	But Richard Spencer points out that while Fuentes is saying they can't answer our questions, Charlie Kirk has no answer for our questions.
	And Richard Spencer points out, Charlie Kirk isn't answering the question.
	He's giving what he thinks is a reasonable answer.
	They're not giving an answer in the sense of what we think is appropriate.
	But these guys think they're owning Charlie Kirk, but really they're just kind of like being assholes.
	Being assholes at a Q&A.
	you know?
	And so, you know, there is kind of a question as to exactly, you know, how long this is going to last and exactly how effective this is going to be.
	I mean, Fuentes is saying, we're going to keep going to all these events, we're going to keep this up for as long as we need to and kind of going right up to the election and beyond.
	I mean, who knows?
	I think it's probably going to fizzle out.
	I don't think that you're going to be able to keep this level of intensity at it.
	And in fact it kind of decreased in intensity even over the sort of like four week span as these kind of organizations kind of figured out how to kind of manage their Q&A sessions so they didn't get as many of these questions and they sort of put plants in the audience and that sort of thing.
	We'll see.
	But I think the reason I wanted to do this is, A, it's fucking hilarious.
	But also that this is sort of highlighting, you know, 2019 right now, this is starting to look like late 2015 or early 2016.
	In terms of the way that this sort of like groundswell of far right shitty teenagers is starting to interact with this sort of electioneering and this kind of like think tank and action.
	Astroturf organization movement and I think you're gonna see I think we're gonna see a lot more a lot more stuff like this Even if it's not sort of like Nick Fuentes and his scrapers I think we are gonna you know as the election kind of comes near as as kind of electoral politics becomes more important In terms of the way what these people were talking about.
	I don't know to the degree to which they're going to really get behind Trump, but they're certainly going to be trying to kind of push the conversation in their direction again.
	And I think we need to be kind of aware of that in terms of kind of public discourse and in terms of kind of people infiltrating, sort of like pushing their memes into the mainstream.
	And I think that's a really important thing is if we're going to understand kind of what's going on within Republican politics over the course of the next 12 months or so, this is definitely going to be a big part of it.
	Yeah, it is going to be interesting to see how they triangulate the Trump issue.
	I mean, it wasn't...
	Wasn't one of the events they disrupted Don Jr.
	in his launching his stupid new quote-unquote... Triggered book, yeah.
	Yeah.
	His book triggered in which case the groupers show up and then Triggered him.
	I don't like using that language in that way because it's you know, it's horribly offensive to people who actually people who actually are triggered Triggered by thing, right, right, you know, but certainly that's that's sort of the way that they're framing it and you know They have invaded a kind of a Don jr.
	Movement.
	I And what they want, I mean, what they want is, like, be explicitly racist, be explicitly anti-Jewish.
	You know, that's the whole, be explicitly anti-Semitic.
	Don't, you know, you're not allowed to just kind of go forward and be on this, you know, and call yourself kind of the edgy Republican, and call yourself this edgy right-winger anymore unless you're going to be explicitly racist.
	That's kind of the goal.
	Yeah, because Kirk and Don Jr.
	are still doing this sort of, oh, SJWs on college campuses thing.
	Right.
	And I suppose to this bunch, that looks really milquetoast, you know, and useless.
	They want to get them, you know, they're not as interested in spinning that narrative as they are in getting it back to hardcore white supremacism, I suppose.
	Right, exactly.
	I mean, the whole thing is like, yeah, no, we get it.
	Feminism is bad.
	You know?
	Yeah.
	Trans people are disgusting.
	That's a done issue for them.
	That's done.
	Come on.
	Like, let's move on from that, you know?
	And, you know, obviously I don't believe that just to be, I mean, it should be clear from my, from everything else I've ever said that I don't believe that, but that's certainly their perspective.
	It's like this kind of anti-SJW stuff is just kind of weak sauce.
	We need to be more hardcore than that.
	And we need, and this is how we're going to incite people.
	And again, that's exactly how they sort of promoted at least that online base.
	I mean, there are some questions about like, Electorally how effective all of this was and any kind of you know But but certainly in terms of like the messaging that sort of the Trump campaign took and sort of the way that things worked electorally in 2016 They were certainly kind of relying on this this kind of Energy and this imagery from these kind of far-right figures and then they just kind of filed the serial numbers off and I think that there's a this is an attempt to kind of do that again and
	And to push, you know, again, this kind of overtly racialized agenda, which again, hopefully, in their minds, I guess, that they'll kind of file the serial numbers off, but kind of run that campaign, and then hopefully actually enact some policies, because in their mind, Trump has given them basically nothing.
	In terms of the policies that they wanted, I mean, I think Trump has been absolutely atrocious, obviously, but he certainly has not been the dictator that they wanted him to be.
	There was a brief shining moment when they thought that he was going to be, you know, putting people onto cattle trucks.
	I mean, they really, I mean, I think they really did kind of believe that, like, got him from our meme to some degree in 2016 and 2017.
	I think there really was this sort of idea that, you know, this was all going to be done in six months.
	And that, you know, even if it wasn't sort of this like overtly like, even if it wasn't like the day of the rope, that there was going to be like really hardcore movement on, you know, this kind of overt kind of fascist takeover of the U.S. government.
	And they didn't get that for a variety of reasons.
	Partly it's just, you know, Trump himself is doesn't have the spine, doesn't just doesn't have the energy and doesn't doesn't care enough about their issues to do that.
	And there's there have been some kind of conflicting reports from inside.
	And I mean, this is in a podcast where we kind of talk about like the kind of the goings on of the Trump White House, because I have no direct experience with that.
	You know, I've said it for a long time.
	There's somebody listening to Fashion of the Nation inside the White House.
	And, you know, this kind of Gerbert figure who literally buddies with Mike Enoch.
	This Stephen Miller.
	I mean, one of Stephen Miller's aides is probably listening to Fashion of the Nation.
	He's probably listening to the Daily Show.
	I think there's a really high probability of that.
	These ideas are being pushed into into those into those circles and the fact that it's not moving as fast as they want it to Doesn't mean that it's not having its influence and I think that that's just That's just something that I think I think we've you know I've been I've been distracted by the by the terrorist side of this and I in But I but I think it's important for us to kind of highlight and that's why I wanted to do this episode Okay, so is that, are we done?
	I guess, you know, that's pretty much where we're going.
	I don't know, I mean, I'll kind of, you know, as events unfold we'll kind of talk a little bit more about this and I'm sure, you know, next year we'll kind of That's it!
	like more of the internal political divisions and you know we'll kind of see but yeah we're pretty much that that's the story that's that's where that's where it is right now and i will put some pieces in the show notes that have kind of kind of covered this as it's happened uh in real time and so we'll have some uh so you'll have some some kind of further reading if you want to kind of look at some of these videos and stuff i'll put a bunch of that in the show notes um so you can kind of have that but um yeah that's it we're done okay okay
	Oh, one thing I wanted to ask was, because the Spencer recording was released by Milo Yiannopoulos, wasn't it?
	Yeah, it was released by Milo.
	Why did he do that?
	Very likely the idea was to sort of smear Spencer, and the idea was to sort of highlight this kind of division between this alt-right, alt-light crowd, and to sort of give energy to, you know, people like Nick Fuentes.
	I mean, you know, in one of his shows Fuentes said that he had heard the audio before it was released.
	There are a couple of ways to interpret that.
	One is to say, like, oh, he heard it when, like, Nick Fuentes was in Charlottesville on August 12th, 2017, so, like, it's possible, like, he was just, like, in the room when it was recorded or something, or, like, somebody had shared it with him.
	And the other side is, like, his buddies in the alt-light had been, like, kind of prepping this for a while, and it was, like, released intentionally with, you know, to kind of go along with this group of war.
	And, I mean, it does just kind of show the degree to which these kind of internal divisions are ultimately, I mean, there's this kind of deeply personal aspect to it, you know?
	There's this deeply personal animosity kind of thing going on.
	But also, you know, kind of people maneuvering to kind of see who's going to be the kind of the meme lord, again, going into the elections and going into, you know, kind of shaping policy and stuff.
	I don't think.
	I mean, if you're going to, you know, have a meme battle between, like, Nick Fuentes and Richard Spencer, I think Fuentes is gonna get crushed.
	You know?
	I think Spencer's just smarter than Nick Fuentes is.
	But, just to be clear, I mean, the one time that I ever really got dogpiled, like, in terms of a, like, two days of constant, kind of, Twitter mentions from, like, shitty racist online, was when Nick Fuentes dogpiled me.
	Like, it was his fanbase.
	So he's definitely got this this sort of like online energy because all of his fans are fucking teenagers who do nothing but shitpost online all day.
	So you know this is definitely like a thing that can happen and Fuentes definitely kind of has that going on whether he really has the eager of you know this sort of like establishment republicanism enough to to sort of like really make his make his opinions known to people that matter is kind of another question but But Spencer comes from old money and while he's too famous to really kind of be embraced by these guys Like he's he's certainly, you know, he's he's still buddies with Stephen Miller, you know, there's no We'll see.
	I mean there have there are kind of pushes like AOC has been like kind of pushing You know Stephen Miller to be you know, kind of kicked out of the White House and I have no idea what's gonna happen with that whether that's actually gonna be effective or not, but um yeah, no, that's I guess we'll kind of highlight that and And keep you updated as that kind of continues.
	But, you know, I think the goal is really just to kind of stir the muck, to kind of, you know, throw chum in the water.
	And to kind of make people kind of respond.
	And they also drive through cycles.
	I mean, you know, again there is a certain degree to which they all kind of rely on each other.
	Now I don't think this was like a pre-planned thing.
	I mean, I don't think Richard Spencer was kind of in on this, like, oh, you're gonna release this audio and we're gonna get a day of news out of it?
	Oh, it's not like a fake rap battle then?
	Right, right, I don't think it's quite to that degree, but I do think that there is an element of, like, you know, We're going to drive our politics by just kind of keeping things in the news.
	And these guys are, you know, one of the things, like Nick Fuentes was trained.
	He was in one of these kind of college Republican groups when he was in high school.
	Like he's been groomed by these same kinds of people for years.
	You know, I mean, these guys get media savvy by sort of joining Republican groups and kind of learning how to talk to the media and how to manipulate the media.
	And this is really, really essential, important stuff in that, you know, I think, you know, part of what we're doing here is to sort of like inform people to kind of like immunize people against this kind of media cycle and this kind of media outrage.
	And sort of like get people to understand how this stuff works in terms of, you know, kind of what's going on behind the scenes.
	But certainly, you know, part of the problem in 2016 was that the mainstream media just had no idea how to deal with this sort of like kind of insurgent, you know, kind of media savvy, you know, social media generation.
	And I think media is probably better at it now.
	Like, to some degree, they've kind of learned the lessons of 2016.
	But in a very real other sense, they have not in any sense learned the lessons of 2016.
	So, you know, I think that there are people who are kind of prominent enough to sort of like decrease the spend to some degree.
	But I think people are still kind of chasing those stories.
	And so, you know, I don't think we're nearly where we should be, but hopefully we're better than we were in 2016.
	And, you know, that's the degree of hope that I have for you.
	Maybe things will be slightly better than 2016.
	No, it's going to be terrible.
	It's going to be terrible.
	I saw on Twitter, I have the IDSGpod Twitter handle, and somebody had kind of recommended this podcast to people, and they're like, oh yeah, I listened to that one, it's good.
	It's like the darkest podcast in existence.
	I mean it is you know, I feel I feel really I feel really honored that people listen to this But it is like, you know, there's no hope here.
	There's no I mean, I hope people like kind of get some kind of pleasure out of it and I hope that people do kind of like I We've come away from this with the desire to do something about this, but that's not my job here, is to give you a happy ending, to give you optimism.
	It's like, these are terrible people and they're going to crush us unless we do something about it.
	That's the goal of the show!
	Yeah, at the risk of sounding trite and sententious, we don't supply the happy ending.
	You have to supply that yourself.
	We all do.
	So, the people attacking Spencer, I suppose they think of him as, you know, too lightweight as well, don't they?
	I mean, is that the problem?
	That he soft-pedals it too much?
	That he plays it too respectable?
	There's some of that going on.
	I mean, some of them just kind of think that he's a little bit, he's too kind of blue-blood, he's too kind of up-and-coming, he's not kind of working class enough.
	I was going to ask if there's a class element to it.
	Oh, there's definitely a class element to sort of the animosity towards Spencer.
	I mean, Spencer, and we talked about this in a couple of previous episodes, I mean, Spencer is literally descended from slave owners.
	Spencer is like real blue blood money, like, you know.
	And that's definitely kind of differentiated from a lot of these other guys who are, you know, they come from generally, you know, fairly well off families, but not, you know, Plantation money, you know, I mean Nick Fuentes and what he's literally recording from his mom's basement, you know That's that's who Nick Fuentes is.
	He's like a rich kid from you know, the west side of Chicago sort of thing, you know And a lot of these guys kind of come from that that kind of similar background but not like Richard Spencer money and I think that the animosity towards Spencer is you know part of his personal like they think he's I mean, they think he's kind of effete.
	We'll kind of avoid the slurs there about what they actually believe about Richard Spencer.
	There's this kind of ongoing rumor that he's gay essentially, but they think he doesn't like he's kind of like Absorbing the money from the movement that he's kind of running on this this kind of like, you know He's grifting without really kind of doing anything really effective and that's you know, so there is there's a lot of Well, there's a lot of respect for Spencer, but there is also this disconnect from him because he's not going out there and being as hardcore as they want him to be.
	And you said Fuentes came up sort of through that College Republican scene.
	I mean it's like... Fuentes himself only did I think one or two semesters of college.
	Like he went to Boston University for I believe a full year.
	It might have only been like a semester and a half or something.
	And then he was going to transfer to Auburn University because he didn't like his experience at Boston University.
	But then never actually went.
	And this was sort of like in the aftermath of Unite the Right.
	He started in high school.
	Nick Fuentes was somebody who was groomed.
	He was doing, like, right-wing radio in his high school days.
	Like, he has, like, when he was 17, he was, like, doing political commentary.
	Like, some of these guys really do start that early.
	Ben Shapiro was another one of those guys who started, like, that young doing this kind of thing.
	And there's always been a market for these, like, essentially kids kind of pushing these right-wing talking points into this kind of, like, right-wing audience.
	Yeah.
	And Fuentes is just doing this in this sort of like weird grassroots way as opposed to doing it like the way Ben Shapiro did, which was to get a shitload of like donor money and to be grown by an organization.
	And I think what Fuentes really wants is he wants that like kind of that place on the stage.
	I think that's where Fuentes wants to be.
	Like he went to CPAC and they kicked him out.
	He went to one of these events.
	I forgot to mention that.
	He did go to one of these events himself and they into a Charlie Kirk TPSA event.
	He was going to ask questions himself and they didn't let him in the building because they know who the fuck he is.
	And he's been doing this stuff.
	He's been kind of kind of trying to kind of be on the outskirts of this.
	And he looks like a fairly pathetic figure, but he's also kind of successfully manipulating, you know, kind of the media cycle.
	And it's kind of like far right circle into believing that he's kind of an aggrieved free speech warrior to some degree.
	And, you know, there's there's you know, there's a lot of debate about exactly how.
	To deal with this, you know, and kind of how to like, like, um, this is, this is a field, but kind of the Andy Ngo issue, you know, who is, who's been kind of like lying and kind of pushing this kind of, kind of far right ideology.
	And it's like, well, do you ignore him?
	Or do you, how do you engage with him without kind of like pushing his, his ideology more into the mainstream?
	And there's a very real question about how you do that within sort of, sort of a media apparatus.
	And I don't have a really good answer for that.
	All I can do is inform you about what's happening ultimately, because I'm following these figures.
	You know, through their propaganda.
	And so, you know, I'm certainly interested in kind of hearing dialogue about how exactly we can engage with these figures.
	But, you know, right now we don't have enough of an audience that I feel like I'm giving them any oxygen.
	Let's put it that way.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, no, it sounds like there's definitely some petty bourgeois resentment there from Nick Winters.
	You know, sort of, I came up from the bottom, I battled my way up from the grassroots and these people just swoop in from above.
	Yeah, I bet.
	And they perceive it as like, oh, the Jewish money is coming in and giving themselves.
	Well, yeah, of course.
	That's the whole thing.
	And it's not, it's billionaire money.
	It's not the Jews.
	Well, that's the same thing.
	Right, exactly.
	And it's like pro-Israel.
	That's the whole thing.
	And so they always encode it in that way.
	Of course.
	Obviously, it's not the Jews.
	It's this kind of pro-corporate class.
	And so, I mean, there is a sense in which they see themselves as being dissidents because they're sort of against – they're, quote-unquote, against capitalism because they don't like immigration that's being used to sort of like decrease, quote-unquote, American wages or whatever.
	But they're not actually against capitalism.
	They're against this sort of version of capitalism that doesn't benefit them.
	If it benefited them, they'd be perfectly fine with all this.
	Like, they want to – they're not actually in favor of, like, a working class.
	They're in favor of people that look like me.
	And that's not being anti-capitalist.
	I'm sorry.
	It's just not.
	No, no.
	Their version of anti-capitalism is to look at the bits of capitalism that don't benefit them and that they don't like because they're too left-wing for them and say, you know, we hate capitalism because it's all controlled by Jews who do things like let immigrants in.
	That's the fascist version of anti-capitalism and ergo it's not anti-capitalism at all.
	Yeah.
	So yeah, it's interesting to me that he sort of comes up, not all the way obviously, but comes up from that College Republican pipeline and yet sort of drops out of it.
	And now he's, part of this seems to be to try to refashion it, you know, he's going, he's attacking specifically TPUSA, which is kind of the big noise on Right-wing campus at the moment to try to undermine its hypocrisy and let's face it there's plenty of scope for that.
	So what he wants is to kind of, I mean I'm speculating obviously, but it sounds like what he wants is to refashion that system so it's more open to people like him where he is now, the outright white nationalist side of it.
	Right, I mean, that's been the whole point of like a lot of these organizations.
	I mean, like what used to be called Identity European is now the American Identity Movement.
	It's kind of doing the same thing.
	I mean, even American Renaissance, I mean, was kind of college focused, but...
	Certainly, you know, the kind of the goal of like those kind of think tanks is to kind of push these ideas into the mainstream.
	I mean, VDARE.
	You know, I mean, again, Stephen Miller is quoting from VDARE and American Renaissance.
	Again, not like kind of a college Republican clause, but certainly in that same vein, kind of like pushing this stuff in by, you know, sort of sort of this kind of like subvertive means, you know.
	Matt Heimbach was somebody who founded these, you know, one of these organizations on his college campus.
	That was meant to be kind of explicitly a kind of white people's party sort of thing and kind of he was groomed by I think this thing called the Leadership Council I think that's the group that also groomed Fuentes but There are a lot of these kind of figures out there and you know I'm kind of sitting on some stuff where we can kind of talk a little bit more about that.
	This is a side that's like really fascinating but which I'm not kind of involved within this world.
	I'm not like I don't live in the DC Beltway enough to sort of like put my finger on a lot of this stuff but there are people kind of kind of covering that angle on it and it is kind of fascinating but it's so kind of behind the scenes there are these kind of like funding organizations there is kind of all this stuff going on but Yeah, it is kind of fascinating kind of like like the big question is like how all this works behind the scenes and Is there like maybe there are like maybe there is some?
	Donor giving Nick Quintus some money and trying to kind of kind of push TPS away.
	I mean, you know, who knows?
	I mean he gets enough money from his super chats, but maybe that's you know, they're just laundering it through that I mean who knows I really I really can't can't answer that question but The question of kind of where the money is coming from to fund some of these guys is kind of one of the biggest open questions and it would be really nice if somebody with access to these people would start investigating that because it's not something I have the ability to do.
	Yeah, and give it to us.
	Give us the scoop.
	Yeah, no, no, please.
	Yeah, really interesting, and it'll be very interesting, again, to see where it goes.
	Albeit, you know, interesting in the sense of, you know, horrifying and awful.
	Watching the train wreck that, you know... Sorry, I was going to make a really dark joke there, but we can just move past that, so...
	We'll just skip it.
	Okay, so that's great.
	That was a good episode.
	That was episode 36, News Roundup 2, The Groyper War.
	And yeah, I'm done.
	Are you done, Daniel?
	I'm done.
	Next time we are going to be talking about what genocide, as I intimated last time.
	And in particular this figure Bob Whittaker and his disciples.
	Bob Whittaker is now dead, but he's got A couple of guys, one of whom was a big fan of what Nick Fuentes was doing this week.
	So we're kind of like continuing the same, like this is going to be kind of a trilogy that sort of feeds into itself.
	Like the whole like Kevin MacDonald and then this, because ultimately they're always blaming the Jews for this.
	And then next week we're going to kind of talk a little bit more about, you know, sort of this kind of white genocide meme and kind of how these ideas have been kind of pushed into mainstream conservatism.
	Because Bob Whitaker, who we're going to talk about next week, worked in the Reagan White House!
	Yeah.
	And he's the guy who coined the term White Genocide.
	So yeah, we're going to talk about that next week.
	So, nothing new under the sun.
	Yeah, look out for that.
	As with all trilogies, the last one will be the worst.
	The middle ones.
	This is the best one then, isn't it?
	This is the Empire Strikes Back of this trilogy, yes.
	That's right, this is the Godfather Part 2 of this trilogy and Empire Strikes Back of this trilogy as well.
	And yeah, so that was episode 36.
	Goodbye everybody.
	Thanks for listening, especially our Greek listeners who we both love.
	Indeed, very much so.
	That was I Don't Speak German.
	Thanks for listening.
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