This week, Daniel explains the "Siege Pill". Content Warning TRANSCRIPT: https://idtg.net/28 FULL TRANSCRIPT LIST: https://idtg.net/ Links: SIEGE at the Internet Archive: https://archive.org/details/JamesMasonSIEGE3rdEdition James Mason at the SPLC: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/james-mason siegeculture.com at the Internet Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20180306224025/https://www.siegeculture.com/ Atomwaffen Division at the SPLC: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/atomwaffen-division PBS and ProPublica, "Documenting Hate, New American Nazis": https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/documenting-hate-new-american-nazis/ On J. F. Gariepy: Kelly Weill, The Daily Beast: "Alt-Right YouTuber Accused of Luring Autistic Teen in Pregnancy Plot." https://www.thedailybeast.com/alt-right-youtuber-accused-of-luring-autistic-teen-in-pregnancy-plot "The Disturbing Case of Mama JF." From The Public Space 309. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWYnKmXBUNc
OK, hi, welcome to I Don't Speak German, episode 28.
Now, this is, of course, the podcast where I, Jack Graham, speak to my friend Daniel Harper about what he learned from three years now of listening to the fucking Nazis in 2019 talk about all their fucking shit in their online safe spaces, their YouTube videos and podcasts and all their places where they gather to talk shit at each other.
The Waffle SS, as I say.
Hi, Daniel.
How's tricks?
Things are going great.
Sorry, we missed two weeks in a row there.
That was not intentional.
I just some personal life bullshit got in the way, but we're back and we're going to be talking about terrorism today.
So yay for everybody.
Yeah, it's a good it's a good job.
One of us remembers to do the podcast business of remember, you know, apologizing for missing weeks and stuff like that, because I obviously you can hear listeners.
I don't give a shit.
So, yeah, this is this is this is the 28th episode and we're talking about This is going to be a bit of an odd one, potentially a bit of an odd one this week.
It's going to be sort of story time and a bit of a loose conversation because we're talking about the siege pill.
And I essentially don't have a fucking clue what that is.
So Daniel's going to be explaining it to me.
Right.
So this is going to be a story.
I've been working for a while figuring out how to talk about this.
During this podcast, for most of the episodes that we've done, we've spent a lot of time talking about, in kind of Zeskin's language, which I read in a previous episode, the mainstreamers versus the vanguardists.
The mainstreamers being groups within the white nationalism, within kind of neo-Nazidom, who believe in working, in one sense or another, through the workings of the existing political order, versus the vanguardists who believe that basically the system has to be destroyed and something new rise from its ashes.
I've spent a lot of time kind of talking about people like, you know, Mikey Knock, Richard Spencer, David Duke to a lesser degree.
Most of these figures are pretty straightforwardly mainstream mainstreamers within that.
They believe in kind of working within something like a kind of established political order, as opposed to kind of like creating a second civil war and having something rise out of the ashes that's more to their liking.
Not always in quite that direct a means, but certainly in kind of a big picture.
Comes to something when that's the mainstream.
Right, right.
And one of the things that I'm kind of getting to is that, you know, when you think about someone like like Ben Shapiro, like I get people asking me, like, hey, you should do an episode about Ben Shapiro.
Like lots of people know about Ben Shapiro.
There's been tons of commentary about Ben Shapiro.
Ben Shapiro is a thoroughly like he's a far right wing nut job, but he is like Convincingly within the mainstream of sort of American political thought he is he has millions of viewers He has you know, like fans, you know, he is he is
It is very easy to find out all you want to know about Ben Shapiro by kind of following him around listening to him and watching his YouTube videos and watching all the copious amounts of criticism about him It's not that I don't think he's important because he's massive and of course he support it, but he's not He's not someone that I feel the need to like kind of put my own distinct spin on and it's not someone that I feel like wasting a whole lot of time on
So if you think about someone like say Ben Shapiro and then like kind of further to his right and someone like Milo Yiannopoulos or like say Steve Stefan Molyneux who we covered but it's kind of at the kind of the far left wing of kind of what what I would consider someone that we'd follow and these are kind of more You know kind of edgy YouTube only kind of off the beaten path people people that you wouldn't necessarily like to have it appear in a little Milo has but you know not necessarily like figures that you would
Think of as sort of like you could talk to your grandfather about them, kinds of figures.
And then you get to the even further kind of where more where like what I normally talk about stuff like the Richard Spencers of the world, the Mikey Knox, those kinds, Andrew Anglin, et cetera, et cetera.
People who like maybe you've heard the name, but like you really haven't followed them because then you're getting into kind of more overt, overtly kind of genocidal rhetoric, although it's often coded in other language.
But these are these are kind of overt like we actually say we're racist kinds of racist Well today we're gonna be talking about the people who think that those people are fucking cucks And then we're gonna talk about the people who think that those people are fucking cucks um one of the worst things that I've like described on this podcast is the unironic exterminationism clip from 2017 from the Daily Shoah and We're talking about people who, like, start there on this episode.
And so, needless to say, this is one that I've been avoiding just because of, you know, Jack's sensitivities and the sensitivities of the listeners.
This is deeply, deeply disturbing content, even at the distance that I'm going to give it to you, because I'm not going to be reading long segments from anything, or we're not going to be doing anything on that level.
But we're talking about people who openly advocate for terrorism, who cheer on mass shooters.
That's what we're talking about today.
The other side of this is that these figures are incredibly, incredibly marginal.
And while I do appreciate having the audience that we do, the audience of this podcast dwarfs the audience of most of these guys.
You know, these guys will, I mean, we'll kind of get into it, but they get on the order of a few hundred listeners.
And we have, you know, 10, 20 times that at this point.
I mean, we have, you know, multiple thousands of listeners at this point.
Which means that like, if we don't do this right, we run the risk of sort of like mainstreaming their message a little bit.
And so I've made efforts to kind of take care of that.
I will not be providing as many links as I normally would.
I don't know.
It's kind of a complicated thing to figure out just how to cover responsibly.
But again, that's what we're doing today.
So again, if this sounds like it's too much for you, you should probably turn it off or take it in small doses.
But at the same time, I think this is one of the more important episodes we're going to do on this podcast, like full stop.
Right, okay.
Well, yeah.
Stand warned.
Content warning and everything.
I'm kind of getting the content warning at the same time as the rest of you, because I'm coming in pretty blind to this one.
Because this is not... I mean, this is very much why we do this, because this is stuff that Daniel knows about, you know, that a lot of the rest of us who might know a fair bit about Ben Shapiro and Stéphane Molyneux and assorted people like that, we We're likely to know a lot less about these sorts of entities that it sounds like Daniel's going to be talking about now.
Yeah, I mean, we're going to be talking about people who are closely affiliated with something called the Atomwaffen Division, which is a domestic terror group at this point.
As of the last few weeks since the El Paso shooting, actually, since the last time we recorded an episode, there have been about 40 arrests of mass shooters or suspected mass shooters, people who have threatened mass shootings by the FBI.
And reading between the lines, it looks like the FBI has been on some of these people for a while.
One of these guys is a guy named Connor Climo.
Connor Climo was a Las Vegas I think 22 year old kid in in Las Vegas who Was part of his neighborhood watch and was posting about how much he wanted to kill gays and Jews on the internet.
And apparently the FBI had been on him since April and after the El Paso shooting, they went and picked him up.
I imagine a lot of these guys have been getting similar kinds of knocks on their doors.
A lot of stuff has been deleted since we recorded an episode last.
Even from their archives, they've been clearing the internet of themselves to a large degree, although they say they're coming back.
So we'll see how that goes.
Yeah, this is a community that law enforcement is very directly connected to.
And while we're not going to be talking directly about Adam Woffin in this episode, frankly I'm not an expert enough on Adam Woffin to do it by myself, we are going to be talking about the culture around them.
We're going to be talking about buddies of theirs.
And in order to do that, we have to talk about the siege pill.
In order to talk about the Siege Pill, we have to talk about Siege.
And in order to talk about Siege, we have to talk about a guy named James Mason.
James Mason was a kind of original neo-Nazi back in the late 60s.
He was born, I think, in something like 1950, 1952, somewhere in that range.
I don't have the details in front of me, but he was born in the early 50s.
When he was 14 years old, he joined...
He joined the American Nazi Party.
This is a George Lincoln Rockwell's American Nazi Party.
This was kind of the original strain of neo-nazidom in the United States.
George Lincoln Rockwell, GLR as he's often called, or the Commander because he called himself Commander Rockwell.
There's an excellent episode of Behind the Bastards, a three-part epic about George Lincoln Rockwell that you can go listen to if you're a fan of this podcast.
I'm sure you're a fan of that one and I just recommend you go listen to that because I don't feel the I think I think Robert Evans covered it quite quite adequately over there George Lincoln Rockwell is Considered a like kind of a father figure a hero figure to a lot of these guys And certainly the people that we're gonna be talking about kind of kind of look to him as the model of how to do this shit
James Mason when he was 14 years old joined the American Nazi Party about a year before George Lincoln Rockwell was shot by one of his lieutenants Go that lieutenant big fan Which then after after Rockwell's death the party guy kind of transferred it had a couple of changes of names It becomes the National Socialist White People's Party a couple years later David Duke kind of passes through there in the early 70s and
When he was about 16 years old, about two years after joining the movement while still in high school, James Mason wrote a letter to William Luther Pierce.
I'm describing how he really wanted to go up and shoot a bunch of people in his high school, like his principal and some teachers he didn't like.
And William Luther Pierce, if you don't remember, is the author of the Turner Diaries and one of the original vanguardists.
He's one of the two main figures in Zeskin's Blood and Politics, which I highly recommend you read.
Liam Lizard Pierce wrote the Turner Diaries.
The Turner Diaries is the model for the Timothy McVeigh bombing, the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995.
And James Mason writes to this guy and, you know, Pierce writes back and says, well, actually, no, that's probably not the best thing to do.
You should probably, you know, kind of kind of join the movement instead and you should you should work for the movement instead of die for the movement.
You know good thing on you William Luther Pierce to prevent the mass shooting of this kids teachers, but Yeah Mason joins the movement or he continues within the movement.
He actually moves in he kind of sleeps on floors in the kind of the in the NSW PP headquarters for a while and becomes increasingly disenchanted with their tactics in the early 70s there was a A whole lot of leftist political activity, a whole lot of, you know, kind of opposition to the Vietnam War, kind of violent revolutionary actions.
And Mason came to wonder why the Nazis weren't doing such things.
Why was it their terrorism being committed in the name of, like, killing all the brown people and letting white people have the American continent back?
He becomes increasingly disenchanted with just kind of people going on marches and putting out leaflets and that sort of thing.
As he becomes more and more disenchanted, he becomes friend with this guy, Joseph Tomasi.
Joseph Tomasi kind of becomes the head of the NSWPP for a while, and then found something called the National Socialist Liberation Front, NSLF.
He was the head of that for less than nine months before he was shot in an incident, which the details remain murky.
It may have been just kind of a random somebody shooting a Nazi, or it may have been some theft.
Nobody's quite sure exactly what happened.
But essentially, Mason takes that NSLF logo and the newsletter that they put out, which was called Siege, and after a few years he renames, he kind of reforms the thing and creates his own imprint with the same kind of naming convention, but under his own model.
Siege was published between 1980 and 1986.
It was a newsletter and it advocated for not just Not just sort of like encouraging civil war but increasingly kind of using Dropout kind of actions in order to achieve that James Mason I corresponded with Charles Manson and I promise I'm not gonna say Marilyn Manson I'm gonna try really hard not to call him Marilyn Manson, but
He was an advocate of Charles Manson's helter-skelter tactics and saw Charles Manson as sort of the modern reincarnation of Adolf Hitler.
This kind of activity, this kind of work, pushed him further and further to the fringes of even the Neo-Nazi movement.
He was such a marginal figure that he's not even mentioned in the pages of Blood and Politics.
I actually checked that just this afternoon to make sure he's not even mentioned there.
2002 the old newsletters of siege were collected By a follower of Mason's and put into a book called a siege It is currently in its third edition and I'm there are rumors.
There will be a fourth edition that will be produced sometime Later this year if if one of the people I'm talking about decides to do it who knows James Mason is still alive.
He was interviewed by PBS frontline earlier this year.
He apparently works at Kmart and he lives in Denver and he's a terrible, terrible human being.
Why don't I take a break and let you ask me whatever questions you might have at this point.
I was just gonna say, you know, I never knew that James Mason had this other career besides being in movies.
It is, you do have to Google James Mason Nazi if you want to find this guy, by the way.
Yeah, there must be a Wikipedia disambiguation.
I don't suppose the other James Mason's even on Wikipedia.
I mean, have you read any of this stuff?
What's in Siege?
What's it like?
Yes, I have.
So yeah, I have read Siege.
So I did obey a kind of quick skim about a year and a half ago, and over the last couple of weeks I've been reading it a little bit more in depth.
I have not finished my in-depth reading of it.
I'm about halfway through it.
It's interesting that the book is largely a, you know, this is not something you give to normies.
This is not something that you give to people kind of coming into this for the first time.
This is something you give to people, if you're in this world, to people who have become disenchanted with the kind of lack of progress that the movement gets.
And this is why this is important.
Mason's criticisms of the neo-nazi movement circa like 1981 sound very, very similar to the problems that the alt-right had post-Unite the Right.
And if you kind of go back and remember those two episodes we did on Unite the Right, episodes three and four, There was this thing, the optics debate.
So again, we'll kind of tell the story here.
For a couple of years, basically mid-2015 all the way up to, say, mid-2017 roughly, this thing called the alt-right maintained a remarkable level kind of mainstream support.
They maintained a level of sort of keeping their ideas, these are pushing these kind of white nationalist ideas, anti-nationalist ideas into something like mainstream political coverage.
And they were increasingly pushing the Overton window further and further in their direction.
They were changing the kind of rules of the game and gaining something that looks like real, at least kind of soft political power, the election of Donald Trump being the sort of the highlight of this, kind of the highest moment of this movement, which looked like it was going to kind of move on.
The summer of 2017 was filled with in-person rallies, all kinds of torch marches and those sorts of things, which culminated in the Unite the Right rally on August 12th, 2017, which resulted in the murder of Heather Heyer by James Alex Field, which resulted in the murder of Heather Heyer by James Alex Field, along with injuring, I think 19 other people, some of them very severely. -
Um, once this kind of moment of sheer shocking violence happened, once people kind of saw what this movement really was, just the sheer amount of news coverage, the movement
Scrambled all the kind of major figures, you know, Richard Spencer kind of goes a little bit more underground I mean the daily show it kind of shifts its focus Andrew England starts plastering, you know kind of a kind of kind of American flags all over his website sort of like no key, you know replacing the swastikas with American flags as a way of sort of like kind of making things seem a little bit more kind of like a normie friendly quote-unquote and I
Every sort of advance that it looked like they were going to get very quickly in terms of doing mass deportations, in terms of building a wall, in terms of ending birthright citizenship, all of those gains seemed increasingly out of reach.
What they thought they were going to get very quickly, it turned out they weren't.
This this has a split in terms of the in terms of the movement where like Part of the movement was willing to kind of just kind of okay We're just gonna have to take the long haul.
We're gonna just keep doing what we've been doing We had a lot of success in 2015 in 2016, but ultimately, you know We've got a we've got to just got to kind of put our nose back to the grindstone and kind of do the old thing but another group became more and more disaffected with that and Um, and really wanted to do something else and actually change things because, uh, they believe they're being literally genocided by the Jews.
Um, which is nonsense of course, but they actually do believe it.
And if you actually believe that, um, you're under imminent threat and your people are under imminent threat, uh, from a, um, all powerful force, um, Sitting and making shitty podcasts and just kind of let going with the flow seems like a less than reasonable solution, particularly if you were a young man hopped up on drugs and with a lot of guns.
Increasingly, starting in mid-2017, late-2017, into 2018 and into early-2019, you kind of see an increasing tension within the movement.
You see increasing – they're arguing about this stuff all the time.
And while it kind of hits its apex at the end of 2017, it's definitely kind of this tension, this thing that's kind of on everybody's mind.
If you look at the forums and you listen to the callers and to the shows and you kind of look at the topics they're discussing, there's a lot of – people don't really know what to do.
A lot of people are frustrated with it people leave the movement people drop out people do all sorts of things and Until sometime in early 2019 when, and actually we discussed this on this podcast, when Trump basically lost support of the entire movement.
And it became increasingly obvious that Trump was not going to give them what they really, really wanted, although the actions of the Trump administration and the Increasing levels of mainstream acceptance of far-right figures within The the boroughs of his government certainly are not like they are getting a lot of shit that they should not be getting I mean there was a Hyatt member of the State Department who was revealed to be like a personal friend of Mike Enoch You know just a few weeks ago.
This is this is a There are certainly far-right figures pushing explicit ethnonationalism within the government, but that's not enough for these guys.
And they don't see it that way.
They see we're not getting a wall, we're not getting mass deportations, therefore we're losing, genocide is happening, and we've got to do something in all capital letters about this.
And the thing that increasingly they've decided to do is shoot random people.
Hmm.
Yeah, so you said earlier that... Oh, by the way, if you want to check out the episode that Daniel was talking about, where we talk about their disillusion with Donald Trump, that's episode 12.
It's the Fashion The Nation podcast episode.
Yeah, you said earlier about how these people that we're talking about today, they have very small listenerships, very, very small numbers.
Is this why, despite that, they're worth talking about?
The fact that they, so to speak, punch above their weight because of the effect that they have in stimulating actual violence?
Because of the effect they have in stimulating actual violence, and because this seems to be where the growth in the movement is going, and as I'll kind of discuss in a minute, we're starting to see more and more figures who were previously more on the mainstreamer side being pushed increasingly in that direction.
Right.
This is really extreme rhetoric, and despite the fact that they have small numbers, these numbers of people are, like, highly, highly motivated.
And it's unclear exactly what to do about that.
Um, so let's rewind again.
Let me explain kind of, uh, more just sort of, sort of history of this movement as I've been following it.
One of the things that I mentioned is that beginning in early 2018, uh, there was a, uh, phenomenon called internet blood sports.
Now, internet blood sports was, uh, kind of started with the Warski live channel.
And this was Andy Warski, who's basically kind of a right-wing libertarian.
Kind of sort of racist but not really ethno nationalist.
It's just sort of like the average right-wing shut on YouTube and JF Gary Epi who I promise would get his own episode one of these days It's just he's less important than other things that we need to talk about Who is a French Canadian man who has an affinity for?
Being in relationships with women of borderline mental capability I'm not sure there's a polite way to say that.
Sorry.
He is in a relationship with someone who seems very much to be mentally disabled.
And this is at least the second relationship that we know of in which he's done that.
There were court documents where the family members of one of these women that he was in a relationship with were trying to get him to cease and assist the relationship.
And there's a really complicated conversation about personal autonomy of people and their ability to consent.
And I don't know enough about the intricacies of that to really discuss it, but some of the allegations veer – they veer to rape.
The This is effectively a non-consensual relationship, that this girl was simply not capable of consenting to the kind of relationship that he had with her.
This is something, of course, JF Gary Eppie denies strenuously.
He does not deny being in a relationship with her, he just denies that it's non-consensual.
Sorry, this is completely off the beaten topic here, but this is the sort of thing you run across as you have to talk about this stuff.
He likes to fuck mentally disabled women.
Yeah, yeah, sorry about that listeners.
That was me derailing Daniel just from sheer.
What the fuck?
Yeah, sorry It's funny it's funny sorry this I'm trying to keep it light here But I there is a there is a sense of which like some of this stuff you just kind of run across Austin enough And then like yeah, he likes to he likes to fuck.
I'm mentally disabled women like that's just it's par for the course, right?
I That barely even twigs the meter on awful things that you run across in this episode.
Anyway, we will do an episode on him soon enough, I promise.
Oh good.
He's a really fucked up figure and believe me we haven't like that's probably the worst thing personally about him But in terms of like the things he believes like he is like really bad shit.
Anyway, he's also like a PhD and neuroscientist.
So anyway, okay Moving away from JFK or Yuppie.
Anyway, Warski Live was a channel that started doing these internet blood sports things.
And basically these were debates.
If you remember, I discussed in a couple of episodes where Mikey and I went onto YouTube and did these debates with other figures about the nature of the Holocaust or about what the alt-right believes and the value of ethno-nationalism.
Sargon of Akkad did a debate on I think it was on the kill stream which was cut which will come back shortly.
This is a guy named Ethan Ralph who was doing a kind of a similar kind of thing and he had a bunch of these channels and they were a bunch of people kind of doing this stuff in early 2018.
And the reason this is important in this topic is that it taught these guys how to make money because what they could do is use the super chat feature on YouTube And, uh, collect money from people who would just kind of donate.
You donate a dollar, you donate two dollars, whatever the kind of limit is.
And, uh, the host will, like, kind of read your chat on the air and you kind of get it seen.
And so it's a way of interacting with the host and a way of donating money.
And so it ends up being a way that a lot of these guys use to launder money through their organizations, a way to make money off of it.
And some of these things, I mean, in the height of Internet Bloodsports, Warski Live was getting the highest numbers of any live stream at the time it was streaming anywhere on all of YouTube.
And a lot of these chats ended up kind of being that sort of draw and ends up getting, you know, kind of thousands of live listeners and tens or even hundreds of thousands of people kind of watching it later on and giving hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to this.
And I.
As a mechanic, this kind of super chat thing becomes something that's just is very common on the kind of right wing YouTube.
It's like, you know, it's like if you and I were going to do this show, we were going to do it live to YouTube and then people could write in and say like, you know, hey, say Christopher Cantwell, suck my balls and I'll give you 1488 for it or something like that.
And like that's that's the style of these they do these multi-hour three four hour live streams and They're very difficult to sort of track them all because it's just it's just a huge amount of material and a whole lot of it is like completely kind of low Information low value.
It's just not really worth much in terms of trying to understand things It's really just kind of it's it's more of a hangout.
It's more just kind of a kind of a long chat um And you know a lot of these figures still do this now Increasingly they've kind of moved away from the super chat model.
They've moved into their basically at a certain point a lot of these guys got Demonetized from the super chat system.
They're not allowed to use that anymore and so there are these kind of secondary and tertiary ones and then as they sort of like Get kicked off of various platforms.
There are more and more platforms that they can do.
But this, even today, is a major way that a lot of these figures will kind of make their operating costs.
I mean, a lot of these guys will make, you know, these guys will make, and they will do two or three, you know, three, four hour live streams a week, each time making, you know, a few hundred dollars.
And, I mean, that adds up.
That's a full-time gig at a certain point, right?
Yeah.
Even giving, you know, 30 cents to the dollar to whatever your This is real money going the way.
Interestingly, this doesn't work on the left.
Left-wingers who try similar projects, you get like 10% at most of the money, even with tens or hundreds of thousands of views.
It's just not viable on the left.
That says something, I'm not quite sure what it says, except that right-wing douchebags have a lot more cash to burn.
And we'll donate it in these ways.
Yeah, they have more money to burn and are readier to burn it.
Eric Stryker, who's a figure that we've talked about, and we haven't done a full episode on, but was the C.V.
Stryker debate that we discussed in a previous episode.
Eric Stryker's show does this.
I mean, a whole lot of these guys do it.
At least the ones that kind of use YouTube as their primary revenue stream.
One of the things I ran into fairly quickly was that the shows would go beyond what the YouTube community guidelines would allow.
Meaning that they're talking about the Jews, and they're talking about gassing people, and they're talking about all the despicable things you can imagine they're talking about.
And even while they might be missed while the show was live because there just weren't kind of enough people reporting it live to get it pulled, over time, you know, sort of the archives would sit there and people would see their kind of channels deleted.
This happened to the Killstream a couple of times, this Ethan Ralph Killstream, and it happened to a couple of other channels that just sort of had this, you know, just sort of one day had their archives wiped.
And so they hit on this kind of ingenious tactic of They live stream immediately to YouTube to reach the main audience and then put the archive link up on another on another website.
Mostly they use Bitsheet for this purpose because Bitsheet has much, much looser content guidelines than YouTube.
And so you're not actually keeping the offensive material on YouTube.
You're putting it somewhere else.
And so as long as you don't get kind of caught in the act while you're doing a live stream, your channel gets to stay there and you can kind of keep your subscriber base.
And then when you get deleted, you just create another channel.
You call it, you know, racist podcast two, or you put like, you know, some different letters on it.
You move the words around.
And then you can kind of keep going out there.
And eventually, by early 2019, there's sort of a devoted audience of people who seem to literally just kind of sit and watch these live streams.
We talked about the Heel Turn Network in episode one of this podcast.
This was Richard Spencer's kind of co-venture.
Richard Spencer kind of joined this heel turn channel, which at the time I said is this is kind of weird marginal thing I'm not quite sure is what's going on, but they had multiple people kind of all giving content to this one channel and they had sort of a you could you could tune into the heel turn network basically at any time of day or night and be watching a Some kind of racial racialist or racist YouTube show and then the archives a lot of them to get deleted some of them kind of stuck around and then some of them kind of got moved a bit shoot and
I'm a whole lot of that stuff I did not manage to get in my archives because I didn't have an easy ability to archive YouTube stuff at that time.
If anybody has that early heel turn stuff, please let me know because I'm definitely interested in it.
One of the channels that was, so one of the figures who was kind of key to starting Heel Turn is a guy who goes by Joaquin Hoke.
His real name is Seth Wallace.
I am not doxing him.
This is well known.
This is his name.
There are a couple of pieces that I've kind of put up talking about Seth Wallace.
We'll call him Wokim for this because that's just kind of the name I know him under.
He was the guy who started Heel Turn and kind of approached a bunch of guys and sort of put a lot of this stuff together.
Wokim in the early days seems to have been pretty much a standard mainstreamer.
Increasingly as the kind of network goes on he gets more and more siege-filled quote-unquote and
Eventually the heel turn network kind of breaks apart and there's some it seems to be there's some complicated Back dynamics about that that Spencer and Joaquin just kind of didn't get along There may be some kind of optics questions because as some of these guys get further and further In the kind of like open support for mass shooters direction you know some of the more, you know, the Richard Spencers of that channel seem to be kind of like less interested in
Being involved with that and whether that's out of a legitimate desire to not be associated with them Because they actually don't agree or whether this is kind of keeping a keeping their distance keeping an arm's length out of a out of a desire to You know just kind of protect their protect their brand or whatever It's kind of hard to know I think in some cases.
It's half one and half of the other.
But I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that Richard Spencer probably does not want to encourage literal lacks of terrorism in the way that a lot of these other figures definitely started to do.
But it does seem like as things kind of went on, some of these figures got further and further in this kind of overtly siege-pilled direction.
And eventually the Hilltrain Network breaks up.
They delete all their archives and they split into four or five channels.
One of which is this guy Augustus Invictus, who, yes, that's a pseudonym.
I don't remember his real name.
He's kind of a former libertarian.
He's a lawyer, and he just announced his run for president.
He's running for president in 2020 on an explicitly colonized Central America ticket.
So that tells you who Augustus Invictus is he's one of the guys who is kind of big in the movement even going back to 2017 He was at unite the right and if you google revolutionary conservative, you can kind of find a lot of his stuff out there and he has kind of I don't think he's kind of an overt siege pillar, but he's definitely a lot closer, more closely related to them than some of the other guys.
His announcement of his presidential run went up on a couple of the channels where the more overt siege pillars hang out, and so some of these guys really are playing footsie with this, who would in other senses seem to be much more kind of closely connected to the mainstreamers.
So when you talk about people being siege pillars or being siege-pilled, I mean, firstly, what does that actually, you know, what makes somebody a siege pillar?
And how do they get there?
I mean, is it actually via reading the back catalogue of siege, or is that just a term that's gotten applied to people like that?
I mean, it's partly a term.
I, you know, most of them actually have read Siege.
Siege, at least the book, the e-book.
I will put links to it if you want to read it.
It's actually an interesting read, kind of strangely.
Like, if you... Reading Siege, I mean, for me, is much a kind of a project of...
You know, kind of understanding that so much of the rhetoric that these guys use is a vulgarization and kind of funhouse mirror version of stuff that was actually happening on the left and stuff that's actually sort of valid.
That is, if you are a marginalized and oppressed population, then using revolutionary violence may be the way out of your troubles.
That said, it doesn't work when you're a neo-Nazi trying to genocide people.
It's a slightly different thing.
Mason Siege advocates less creating a movement, although he does talk about what it takes to make a movement.
And what kinds of factors you're looking for.
I mean, he's not anti-movement as much as his suggestion is that people drop out of the system instead of, you know, you're not supposed to sort of pay your taxes.
You're not supposed to be a part of this kind of multicultural hellscape that the modern world in 1981 And even more so in 2019, you're not supposed to sort of be a part of that, you're supposed to drop out, you're supposed to plan violent actions of resistance.
In the book he offers examples of like, you know, sort of bombing the Boulder Dam for instance.
engendering increasing tension between the races to spark off a race war and kind of destroying the infrastructure that makes the modern world this this sort of the system uses the system in capital letters quite often to make the system not work anymore and sounds like the uniball society it's very much the I mean you know they're speaking in the same place
And a lot of these guys who are advocates of siege are also people who some of these guys are also advocates for, for gunamama style kind of, kind of eco-terrorism.
Although that tends to be in a slightly different ballywick that there's, there's kind of related, but not quite the same thing, but you're thinking in the right, in the, in the right realm, definitely.
That Mason's kind of advocacy, Mason isn't saying we need to go back to nature.
He says, I mean, at one point in the book, you know, you know, the great blackout might be something that we just have to have in order to maintain this.
In general, the idea is that you go out, you commit acts of violence against the system that are going to spark off a race war.
You pick your targets, you kill whoever you need to kill, and once you can kind of basically make the "the blacks riot," You can create this system by which white people are going to kind of get back their part of the pie and are going to just kind of go off and kill whoever they need to to kind of create the white ethnostate.
At one point in the book, he says – he doesn't believe in the Holocaust, but he says there will be no need for gas chambers in the American versions.
This is so it separates us from Germany.
There will be no need because by the time we are able to form the kind of society we need, none of the people that would go into gas chambers will be left alive.
Um, he's advocating like literal mass murder by individuals, by, um, you know, thousands or millions of, of, you know, kind of effective white nationalists.
And the way you do that is you make things worse and worse and worse for a kind of, um, freedom loving white people who otherwise are kind of, uh, you know, a part of the system.
You make life worse and worse for them until they will pick up their guns and just go and start going on a killing spree.
Um, And so the model ends up being, you know, the streets will run with blood.
Everything's going to be shut down for six months to a year until we can kind of have our thing and we can kind of build a better thing out of the ashes.
Now, there are lots of problems with this.
And for my Nazi listeners, I feel like it's a time to kind of reiterate.
I don't care how much canned food you happen to have.
I don't care how many bullets you have.
I don't care how isolated you are.
You are not going to out survive the people who grow the mass majority of food in this country.
And I'm telling you, those are not white people.
You know if if you manage to spark off this civil war and I take that as unlikely I can promise you that the Mexican migrants that you despise are going to like out survive you by a thousand years You're you know, it doesn't matter.
I don't care.
Anyway The other part of that is there's a real like underpants and gnomes problem here where you know, we spark off civil war and Question mark.
Yeah, white nationalist ethno state is at the other end, you know, one of the things that's very, one of the things that like leftist thought does is talking about organizing and what kinds of systems that make sense, you know, you don't spark off the revolution, and then just go and then at the end we win.
Yeah.
This is completely missing from any kind of analysis that any of these guys do they just assume that once once you know The the kind of power structure that play is gone We're just gonna rise from the ashes Phoenix like and you know and this also kind of feeds back to that might is right kind of idea the idea that these like the It's powerful men, strong men are going to come in and be the ultimate like kind of heroes that we're strong and so we're going to just survive.
And if we weren't strong enough, then we wouldn't survive.
But ultimately, white people are just naturally superior.
And so at the end of the day, however many of us are left, we're going to be the ones to pick up the pieces and then we get to build our happier society at the end of it.
So in a sense, there's sort of epistemology and this sort of ontology of white people as inherently superior and kind of leads them to not think they're going to need that.
It's not about who's superior, it's about who's best fitted for their niche, their environment.
There's no such thing as superior or inferior species, but let's just say that you can quantify a species as superior because it's bigger or stronger or more intelligent or something.
They go extinct if the environment they happen to be in is better suited to smaller, weaker, less intelligent creatures.
So that literally isn't how anything works, guys.
Exactly.
I mean, you know, and again, like all of these guys do have fantasies essentially of like, I mean, you know, that they will go and just like walk into the ghettos and just like mow down every black person and just, you know, this is where the idea of the day of the rope happens on the day of the rope.
We're going to take all the race trade.
They're going to take people like me, race traders, and, you know, like communists, et cetera, et cetera.
And all the judges and all the, all the lawyers and everybody, and they're all going to get hung from trees.
And at the end of the day, it's going to be white people paradise after all the bad people are gone.
All the gay people, all the Jews, etc, etc, etc.
When I say fascism is a death cult, this is the kind of thing I'm referring to.
This is literally what they believe.
This is what they want to happen.
This is what they see is happening, ultimately.
Yeah, this is politics and ideology sort of retro-worked out from fantasies, isn't it?
You work out what your politics are and what your tactics will be based on the fantasy you want to have about which particular people you want to enjoy murdering.
Yeah, I mean, it's almost literally that, and much of the content of Siege is essentially a sort of Working out of the the sort of the the the fiction of the Turner diaries It's taking that and then like putting it into sort of operational practice a lot of people think that siege is I mean if you haven't read stage you might think it's filled with like Things like the the the anarchist cookbook for instance, you know, a lot of like recipes for bombs and that's not really the content it's really, you know, the bulk of the book is not even it's not even really about like a
Racism he doesn't talk about like race and IQ.
He doesn't really talk about like the inferiority of black people I mean, he clearly believes that but again, this is a book.
This is sort of a 201 level book.
This is something you give I Heard it said on a on a stream not that long ago.
It's it's something like I You know, it's less, this is something you use to red pill normies, versus this is something you use to radicalize red pillars.
And since this stuff has been getting more and more mainstream, the figures that, again, the mainstream figures, the mainstreamer figures that we've been talking about, people like Spencer and Enoch and such, are increasingly seen as a de-radicalizers within the movement, or within the community.
Like, Mikey and I laugh about, like, the rest of the, like, people calling them de-radicalizers.
Like, because that's the state that this stuff has gotten to in mid to late 2019.
That's where we are right now, in terms of this subculture.
It's moving further and further to the right.
It's becoming more and more radicalized.
So the people that, you know, people like Enoch and Spencer, that most people know about, they're actually considered, well, they're probably FBI, to be honest, aren't they, in the view of most of these people?
Oh God, that, well, I mean, they're cucks.
They're ultimately, they're part of the movement, they're part of the system.
If you are not advocating Violent revolution through terrorism at this point.
You are suspect you are you are part of the system.
You are not going to like lead to an actual solution to this problem and you know someone like the The El Paso shooter, you know, how do you get the El Paso shooter to not like how do you do radicalize him?
Ultimately the answer if Donald Trump had you know been putting you know Machine gunners at the at the US and Mexico border if they're working on mass deportations happened I think he would have been perfectly fine with that I think he would he would not have he would not have felt the need to go and do that ultimately and I think that's the that's the kind of scary part is that I mean I I was gonna kind of wrap up with this but like there is a tension between these groups between these kind of two Separate ideologies.
It's not enough to say there are mainstreamers and vanguardists that When the mainstreamers kind of gain gain momentum when they have more energy and more kind of authority to actually affect change it tends to De-radicalize the vanguards it's and people are more and more willing to just sort of let things go and see what's gonna happen but You get more and more sort of state violence used against marginalized people.
When they stumble and when they start to fail, more and more power goes towards the vanguardists and the vanguardists get increasingly violent and they start going out and kind of committing random acts of terrorism.
And that's what we've been seeing this summer is essentially because Trump is failing in the eyes of like kind of the alt-right in terms of white nationalists, a dissident right, whatever you want to call this, people are taking matters into their own hands and ultimately this becomes a big question about even like the question of like deplatforming for instance.
Allowing people to kind of sit on the internet and bullshit keeps guns out of their hands.
It kind of reacts as a release valve, but they gain more people to their cause.
And again, this becomes a real question.
There's a real like, there's not a clear answer to this because ultimately we want to fight both of these tendencies.
And ultimately, we need a kind of a multi-thronged approach.
And that's difficult.
That's a complicated thing.
You know, I don't have a clear answer for that.
I'm definitely interested in people's thoughts on that question.
I often think, depending on the external circumstances, tensions like this within movements can be both drawbacks and pluses.
Like, obviously, in situations of There is a sort of a mirror effect here with the left, because a lot of this is mirrored on the left.
I'm not going in for a kind of crude horseshoe theory, and as I always say, politics has content as well as form, but there's form as well as content.
There definitely are resemblances to how left-wing politics works, and yeah, it's true that if you got Corbyn in government in this country and he started instituting even some of the policies that he advocates, You'd see a kind of deceleration, I think, on the left, where people sort of step down and watch that space, you know, and say, let's see what happens here.
And then if that government started backsliding or started being defeated, you'd see a consequent rise in radicalism as people reacted to that with dissatisfaction.
So yeah, it's definitely...
It definitely works.
I mean, we've seen that many times in British history alone, that exact syndrome.
But yeah, in situations of, as I say, setback and demoralization, you get this.
I mean, famously, the left is prone to splits and fracture and squabbling and so on.
You know, it's a cliche.
I think it's pretty clear just from what you've said in this episode, the right is equally prone to that sort of thing, and that's kind of one mode of internal tension showing itself, you know, in defeat or setback, it turns into this fracturing.
But also I think in some situations this internal tension between different aspects of the movement can actually help it grow, and I think that's That's definitely what we were seeing a few years ago as this was building and building and building.
Do you see what's happening now as, I mean this might be an impossible question to answer, but do you see it as leading towards this thing growing or flying apart?
I don't see this is slowing down anytime soon.
The one thing that's having an effect and I think I think what I want to do just as we as we've been talking about this like this is all like long preamble But there's so many I wanted to get into a lot of the like major figures in this so I think we're gonna split this into two and I'll talk about sort of the individual personalities and we'll talk about the cat will story which is hilarious and fascinating and But we definitely need I think a whole episode to kind of get into that.
So so we'll consider this as preamble Okay, but to answer the the the question, sorry, I just kind of thought of that now This is this is very much like me figuring out how to tell this story.
So this has been great, actually.
Part of the thing that I think we're seeing is that these movements are still growing.
The question is what the long arm of the law is going to have with these guys in the sense that people are being arrested for these kind of threats.
And we are seeing the FBI actually do something about this and kind of what effect that's going to have.
If, you know, kind of, and again, this is a far leftist podcast.
I don't think we need to, like, sort of describe this.
I don't think I need to say this, but, like, fuck the FBI, right?
Like, I have no love lost for the federal government, law enforcement agencies.
At the same time, when you have actual terrorists try to engender a race war to create an ethno-state, you pick your least worst option in this case.
I always think with institutions like the FBI, the best thing to do is to hold them to their professed role and their professed standards, and obviously criticise them when they fail, but still demand that they Often futilely demand, but demand nonetheless that they live up to what they say they're there to do.
And I mean, you know, basically a lot of channels got deleted a couple of weeks ago and a lot of, like, archives got removed.
It would certainly be a shame if anybody had some of that, like, sitting on a hard drive somewhere.
Or on a Google Drive and sent it to, like, 20 people who also have it.
That would be a shame if someone did that.
That'd be terrible.
But yeah, no, it's it's one of those things where like I do like to provide links and a lot of stuff I can't even provide links for anymore because it's just been wiped from the internet three or four times and Yeah, who knows exactly what shape it's going to take but I don't see it slowing down based on what what I'm seeing, you know, even if
Even if like half these guys get, you know, get brought up on federal charges or whatever, it's unclear exactly kind of what charges you could lay against some of these guys, particularly the guys who are basically just sort of like podcasters who would kind of reside under, you know, under something like a free speech exception.
They do try to avoid making direct threats, although some of them have, and we'll talk about that next week.
It's a, you know, there is kind of an open question as to exactly what they're going to do.
And I mean, you know, let's, let's be frank.
I mean, one of the things that, uh, the FBI is well known for sort of, uh, it's, uh, it's standing, it's standing much more, uh, kind of, kind of using, uh, tactics that, that get there, get them bitten in the ass in court, uh, by taking legitimately bad people and entrapping them in ways that are illegal, for instance.
Um, that's something that's.
Very common in their execution of going after Islamic terrorism in the United States and elsewhere.
It's a lot of the issues with the way that they've approached the Patriot movement, for instance.
They'll surround some right-wing dipshit Patriot guy with FBI informants and egg him on and get him to commit some act of terrorism, which, you know, plant a fake bomb or something like that.
And then he goes to court, and it's like, well yeah, but who really created this thing?
And I mean, the FBI absolutely engages in terrifying tactics, and I'm not trying to give...
You know, I'm not trying to spoon-feed like hope into our into our Nazi audience here.
You guys are even worse But being an honest broker of information here means that like I can I can I can be honest about like the FBI does some shitty things and it would be really nice if they like actually and Actually did things legally in the right way and listen to people who have been trying to tell them about this for a few years rather than cover their ass and kind of go after people in this haphazard way.
It'd be really nice if the FBI were to listen to more anti-fascists, basically.
That's kind of where I'm landing on that, because a lot of us, it's not just me, there are a lot of us who have been tracking this for a long time, but nobody quite knows what to do about it, and that's kind of the issue with that.
Outside of that, I don't, like, even if like half these guys get arrested, it's really unclear that there's a whole lot that can happen.
There are a lot of people trying to track it, but it's blowing up, particularly on the far edges of these forums.
In these places that are even harder to track and you know the thing with like I can download like the entirety of like Chris Cantwell's Archive, you know right now I could go and redownload that I could go and redownload virtually every episode of The Daily Show There's one missing one where there's some interpersonal drama and if anybody has that missing episode, please I'd love to hear it Making lots of requests this week.
Yeah, I mean, I'm just trying I'm just trying to like let other I mean I'm sharing what I know and hoping that other people will kind of get in contact with me it's a I'm kind of, I'm kind of also being goofy with that.
You know, it's one of those things of, uh, you know, like I know that there is that missing episode of TRS and I'm pretty sure I know what happened there, but it'd be really nice to listen to that episode and just like glory and like three of these people fighting until two of them like walked away from the whole project.
That would be really funny.
This is like this is like Doctor Who podcasting again.
We're talking about missing episodes.
Yeah.
Well, there are a ton of missing episodes But that's the thing like I can go back and relisten to a lot of it like a lot of stuff is still up there like the the audio of The unironic extermination is some clip is still there.
I can go redownload that anytime I want to it's not it hasn't gone anywhere It's still on their website A lot of this stuff never gets archived in the first place, so if you're not watching it live, that basically means devoting yourself to this full-time in the sense of you can't have a full-time job, which I have a day job, and I don't do this in that sense, you know?
You're just going to miss it entirely.
There's just no way to track it.
Somebody hire and pay Daniel to do this, please!
I mean you would think that like the SPLC would be doing this but you know and Are the federal the feds you'd think the feds kid like I could give them a list of URLs to just track Yeah, you know nobody nobody reaches out to me on that level.
So, you know, it's fine.
Anyway I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon.
I'm really like we haven't seen another kind of Well, let's let's put it this way.
Um, I And we'll use this as a chance to wrap up for now, because I think this is a natural stopping point.
One of the things, and I gave Jack this JPEG, I did a screenshot of one of the threads from 8chan while the El Paso shooting was happening.
You know, some anon was saying like, stop posting your fucking manifestos, essentially.
Because all you're doing when you're posting manifesto is you make it traceable back to us.
All you're doing is making it like this explicitly kind of white nationalist thing.
You're just making the feds, you're just giving the feds excuses to come after us.
If they think it's just a random act of violence, if they think it's just something that's happening that is connected to this, um, They've got no sort of ability to track it.
They've got no, and what they want is not stuff that's directly attributable to some group that maybe then the, the, the, the, again, the law can come after them.
What they want is, uh, you know, what they want is an increase in tension.
They want things to get worse and worse for people.
They want more and more shootings until people are uncomfortable until people, uh, Lash out until they call it the boogaloo in terms of Civil War two Electric boogaloo.
Um, that's a term that gets used if you see people using the word boogaloo.
These are siege pillars well when you That's a very widespread joke, but in this context, yeah, right, right but but but but but in this context is it like when you when you see some some guy with that with a with a Skull mask avatars of like that, you know when they start saying we're encouraging the boogaloo when we're doing that, you know they're using this sort of the generic electric boogaloo joke and putting it into You know, they say we want to spark off the boogaloo.
For instance.
We want the boogaloo to happen We want to do a boogaloo, etc, etc What they mean is a mass bloodshed on the streets of the United States on the streets of other white country But they particularly this seems to be an American phenomenon Although there are kind of side groups there are sort of like you're I am seeing people talking about like sort of European wings of Atomwaffen and other kinds of divisions like that So this is going worldwide and it is spreading from the United States.
So you're welcome rest of the world More cultural imperialism from the States there.
More cultural imperialism.
If only white people have not done enough in this country.
Anyway.
I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon.
I think and this is this is honestly some of these people legitimately scare me like Oh, yeah.
Yeah, these are these are scary people.
Well, I never thought when I started like oh, yeah I'm gonna follow like this weird like internet subculture of misogynist and racist that like I ran went end up like talking about like domestic terrorism and like the techniques they use to spread their bullshit, but I Hey, we don't get to predict our futures, do we?
This is just the world we live in.
This is 2019.
Yeah, apparently.
Apparently.
I'm sure when you messaged me and were like, Hey, I'd love to come on your Dr. Who podcast.
That sounds fun.
You thought like in four years, we're going to be talking about terrorism.
It's going to be great.
Yeah.
That was always my plan.
Actually.
I had it all mapped out.
Anyway, I've been subtly, subtly manipulating you to this point the whole time.
I don't know if you'd noticed, but yeah, well, you know, you're, you're the, you're the one feeding the information to me and I'm the one going off and I'm committing the atrocities and By atrocities, I mean listening to thousands of hours of racist people talk so that I can then explain it to other people And then scare them away from my Twitter One of these guys found me at random and messaged me and I retweeted him and said like oh look This is so-and-so from one of these podcasts.
I wonder if he's gonna try to do a boogaloo today And then he blocked me.
I wonder why I wonder why I don't think It's not in them that many words.
But anyway, we'll talk we'll talk about these exact figures next week.
That's the plan I think Okay, so it's, yeah, this episode has morphed into a two-parter before your very astounded ears, listeners.
So yeah, we'll be back, I don't know, next week or maybe week after next, I don't know, we'll see how it goes, with part two about the siege pill.
Yep.
Okay.
Yeah, I do plan on doing something for next week.
If you can't show up next week, Jack, then we'll...
I'll, we'll fit something in between and then we'll kind of come back to it.
Okay, yeah.
We'll provide you with some kind of content next time to distract you momentarily from the ongoing, slow, painful death of Western civilization.
Briefly.
Yeah, so that was episode 28.
If you want to, you can find us on Twitter.
I'm at underscore Jack underscore Graham underscore and Daniel is at Daniel E Harper.
Do get in touch with feedback, compliments, praise, lording, you know, worship, anything you like.
Information, tips, criticism.
Did I say criticism already?
Anything you like, basically, as long as it's nice.
And we also both have Patreons.
We really do appreciate any help you can give us.
It genuinely does help us to make this show, but it also helps just to listen and to tell people about it.
And we appreciate every listener.
See, I can do the podcast shtick after all.
You're just out of practice.
It's been a couple of weeks.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I just needed to get back into the groove.
Okay.
Well, I'm done.
Are you done?
I'm done.
We're definitely done for now.
We'll come back to this in the next episode, and we'll get into the nitty-gritty of the details of these terrible people.
And once we've done that, it'll be a lot easier now.
So that's what we're going to do.
And I think I'm right in saying that there will be Canterwell news sort of interwoven through the texture of the next episode.
Yeah, it turns out, so I've been hyping the, there's a big Cantwell story that's been brewing in the background, and that's intimately related to these guys and the fact that they were harassing him on his radio show incessantly for months, and then he doxxed a couple of them, and as he circles the drain, he lives in fear of The Siege Pillars, and a particular group of particularly nasty Siege Pillars at that.
And yeah, that's enough of a preview for this epic, very funny story which involves literal terrorists.
Yeah.
This podcast has a tone problem.
This project has a tone problem.
This planet has a tone problem.
This is the problem with writing about this stuff.
This is the problem with trying to like cover this stuff.
And like, I've been trying to figure out how to write about this for three years because there's no way not to make it funny and there's no way not to make it terrifying.
It's, it's, you know, it's, it's what it is, you know, this, this, this universe was written by George Romero.
