Adam Carolla critiques "feminine safetyism" and figures like Gavin Newsome for prioritizing identity politics over infrastructure, linking excessive regulation to estrogen-driven caution. He contrasts this with "masculine" states, mocks specific mannerisms of politicians signaling LGBT solidarity, and shares his post-2009 podcasting success through merchandise rather than ads. Carolla details Malibu's bureaucratic rebuilding delays, mourns the loss of thinkers like Jordan Peterson, and illustrates his values by splitting a steakhouse potato with a homeless man, arguing that blue-collar grounding counters white-collar neurosis. Ultimately, he warns that current cultural shifts threaten America's stability while urging listeners to reject fear-based governance. [Automatically generated summary]
Karen Bass and Gavin Newsome have talked much more about fighting Trump and then allying with the LGBT community and fighting ICE than they've said anything about rebuilding anything.
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I think Trump is one of the most destructive presidents and human beings in my lifetime.
You can find some females that think like Margaret Thatcher, but there are many more males like Gavin Newsome who think like females.
Under the rubric of safety, I'm going to control your life 100%.
I've been ruminating a lot on women, women's role, women's role in society, safety, risk.
Well, what's wrong with wearing a helmet when you're riding a skateboard?
And you could go, nothing, but I don't think there should be a law that you have to wear a helmet while you're riding a skateboard.
And then they'd go, well, let's just make a law.
But at some point, it's you got to wear a helmet while you're operating a motor vehicle.
The difference is going to start affecting protocols, rules, and regulation in society.
And if we go too hard toward the feminine, we're going to end up mostly like LA, which definitely leans toward the feminine versus Florida, Texas, places like that that have a more masculine.
You know, as a dog, there's so much breadth and width in terms of the kind of life you could have.
You could have a homeless guy as your owner, and he could be dragging around with lamp cord, and you guys could be sharing a nugget you fetch from the dumpster, or you could get affluent gay men.
Yeah, I mean, I do kind of sit and think about where we're at and what we're doing and why we're doing it.
And then I sort of wait till it sort of bubbles to the surface a little and then I start drilling down on it.
You know, somebody said to me, like, what's next?
Or what are you thinking about right now?
And I just blurted out gyno-fascism because it was just on the tip of your tongue.
It's on the tip of my tongue.
I, I just was sort of, I've been ruminating a lot on women, women's role, women's role in society, safety, risk, and the sort of influence of women and estrogen in our society.
And I realize that's a big part of sort of the change that's going on and what we're thinking about and safety and safety uberalis and then precautions.
And, you know, people think it's sort of misogynistic.
And, you know, there are elements of that, but it's, it's more pragmatic.
Like COVID, the aforementioned COVID was very femininely driven.
You know, I was married at the time, and my wife was COVID protocol oriented.
And I was who gives a shit oriented.
And she was very kids-oriented.
And I was like, it's not going to harm them because they're 14 and they're healthy and they have no comorbidities.
And she was very, you know, watch the news, affected by the news, protocol as set by the city and the county.
And I realized like that, you know, Barbara Ferrer was the LA City Council pro, you know, LA protocol coordinator.
Oh, I remember.
You remember her, you know, Mayor Bass or and/or Garcetti.
And we were like setting an agenda the way women would set an agenda in a situation like this.
And it was happening sort of micro and macro.
Every home, the woman was sort of in charge of the take the shoes off.
Don't come into the house, you know, with the shoe.
And, you know, I got boy-girl twins, and my son didn't give two shits about COVID.
And my daughter was texting me, wanting me to take pictures because I was at the supermarket, and she wanted me to take pictures of my hands in gloves pushing the cart.
And I realized, okay, there's a difference.
And the difference is going to start affecting protocols and rules and regulations and society.
And if we go too hard toward the feminine, we're going to end up mostly like LA and California, which definitely leans toward the feminine versus Florida, Texas, places like that that have a more masculine tilt to them, or just something like guns.
Well, look, if you can find some females that think like Margaret Thatcher, but there are many more males like Gavin Newsome who think like females that hold on.
You know, my theory on that is that he's a lizard person and you know that the lizard carries the testicles inside, which is like, can you sit like this?
I know it's not a Corolla thing and I know your theory and everything.
He got the beard and he doesn't do the deep cross because Newsome is like, I know this is gay, but you know what I'm doing with my blonde lady friend at home.
But the thing that's funny, and Dr. Drew pointed this out, Trump not only doesn't do the leg cross, he does the leg split and then he builds a diamond out of his thumb and forefinger so you can focus on his nutsack.
Do you think most of all of your political stuff, all your political leanings really is just born out of that, that you were, you worked with your hands for so many years and that that pretty much set the table?
Because you're not really ideological.
You just strike me as like sensible.
It's just that.
And I mean that as a compliment, even if it sounds kind of simplistic.
Do you think we're going to give up something as all this goes to prefab stuff?
I mean, that just popped in my head as you were saying that.
But, you know, all of these things now are going into, they're going to basically be able to build your house in a factory in essence and assemble it like a Lego set.
I mean, they're already doing this in some ways.
We'll talk about what's going on with Cali and Malibu and all that, but that it would take away all the love of the craft and the art and all that.
But the idea that, you know, 20 years from now, I really think it'll be this way.
Will look at people who want to drive manually and be thinking you're like a dinosaur, like what kind of crazy person you're going to be thought of as basically an alcoholic.
Oh my God, grandpa still drives.
He's a crazy bastard because everyone else had been for sort of for the protection reasons that you laid out before.
Maybe not the exact robots we've got right now, but when you give it another couple of years, they'll do it.
I think what will ultimately happen is that the super elite will have real people doing it, and that will be a marker of elitism, basically.
Oh, humans did the marbling on your wall, not just the factory set kind of robot.
Did the money change you at all?
I've only known you since you were Adam Karole, but you know, because you're a blue-collar guy, you obviously, that's like your identifier, but like you're also a guy that just has 24 cars and doing all right.
I like doing stuff for myself, but not really for financial reasons, just because I'm a strong believer in keeping sane by like washing your own car.
Like tasks, mundane, kind of basic, boring, should outsource sort of tasks and just sort of doing them just to kind of keep your head right.
So, but I was always, yeah, I was always poor and like generally decent temperament, you know, and then I was rich and I was sort of the same, I think.
So yeah, at the end of my show that day when we played the clip, I said to the guys for the outro of the show today, let's play the Little House on the Prairie, you know, the intro.
And in the intro, you know, the little girl, she falls down the hill.
She broke her leg and died.
That was because, well, they didn't have the medical.
I, I early, very early on in even in radio, you know, kids were calling up Loveline and they were talking about being on serotonin reuptake inhibitors.
And it was just about the later 90s, mid-90s, where everyone was just starting to get on all the Prozac and the Welbutrin and stuff.
And I remember just going, why don't you listen to classical music and take a hike?
And everyone's like, what?
No, they need, they have a chemical imbalance.
I'd go, I bet if you listen to classical music and just start hiking, a lot of this stuff would go away, anxiety, whatever you're having.
I bet it would smooth it out a little bit.
And everyone was kind of was telling me I was nuts.
And then, you know, 25 years later, a study came out said hiking and classical music turns out to be better than serotonin reuptake inhibitors.
And so I was always kind of instinctually thinking, you know, I was kind of breaking it down.
I was like, well, is anyone ever depressed when they're being chased by a bear?
And I go, well, no, because all you're doing is thinking about getting away from the bear.
And I was like, well, what about when you're struggling, like working and trying to, like, what if you're trapped on an island and you had to build a shelter or something?
Would you be depressed?
Like, no, you would never be depressed in that.
Right.
You don't have time for it.
It's kind of a luxury, right?
Anxiety is kind of a luxury too.
And I think for me, The reason I got the lesson is because I had toggled between the blue collar world of building and remods and real, like pretty hardcore blue collar-y stuff, welding, fabricating, woodworking, stuff like that.
And then the sort of heady stuff of being in a writer's room, Hollywood ideas.
This guy's got his degree from Brown and he's got a funny idea and sitting around.
So it's like I would, I don't think many people would go from a late night shows writer's room with a bunch of, you know, educated white collar Ivy League guys and then to a job site with a bunch of, you know, ninth grade education, didn't speak English, half of them, you know, real blue collar, real like hardcore blue collars.
I was going back and forth like all every day.
And I just started noticing that the blue collar guys were a lot more even.
Like, first off, they didn't have stomach things, you know, they didn't have things they couldn't eat.
Because, you know, I would always go like, I'll go on a lunch run.
And they'd go, thanks, F.A.
And I'd just leave.
They didn't go, hold on.
I have a gluten issue.
Where are you going?
No roughing.
I don't do Chipotle if that's what you're saying.
I would just leave.
And I'd either come back with Taco Bell or In and Out or it didn't matter.
I just come back and go, you know, they go, thanks, F.A.
And they just, they didn't go, what's in this spur?
They just ate, whatever it is, there were no problems, no issues.
And then COVID came around and they're all even.
They're just working.
No one talked about it.
No one wore masks.
No one wore gloves.
We just talked about the project.
And then I'd get back with the white collar world and they're all wringing their hands, worried about distancing and thinking, I think I have a cough.
I wonder what that means.
And I started realizing that the hands-on, tactile world that they lived in was giving them some peace and some distraction and some sanity as well.
And that's when I kind of had always kind of known that the blue-collar dudes were a little more even up in their head.
No one was, no one had, no one was neurotic.
You can't be neurotic on like a construction site.
When some of your former colleagues that were in late night television have gone, let's say, a little off the deep end with some of this stuff and, you know, become super wealthy and kind of given the machine what it wants.
And I don't know if you saw Bill Maher on Club Random a week or two ago said he's now having his friendship with Kimmel struggling a little bit because Kimmel's wife doesn't want all these people around, blah, blah, blah.
You and Kimmel obviously need a man show together, the most politically incorrect show maybe in the history of television.
Well, I'll quote the great Dennis Prager and that people are a package.
And I think people, I think about that a lot in that I think about people or I go, I like this.
I like that.
I don't like this.
And I wonder if there's a way to change that thing I don't like.
But people are a package.
It is sort of who they are.
And you can always pick out a couple things you'd like to change about them.
But there's oftentimes a lot more good that comes with the package as well.
And so you can't discount the good part.
And I don't know.
It was just, it was like two years, not two years.
It was like two days ago, Jimmy just texts me a picture out of the blue, and it's a picture of him and Sarah Silverman, and one of them has my daughter and the other has my son, and they're like must be a year and a half old, and they're like holding them both over their head.
I haven't even seen the picture.
It's a beautiful picture, and he just like sent it to me, like thinking of you.
And he really has like so many lovely qualities.
And yeah, I disagree with him about COVID or Trump or whatever.
But this is a newer phenomenon where you must take a stand against these people.
It's newer.
I never grew up that way.
It wasn't an issue in the past.
And for me, I just, I don't think it's wise to have a relationship defined by politics.
If both parties are willing to agree to that now, they don't always agree.
You could have your daughter who's going to the lesbian college who comes home for Thanksgiving and will not have Thanksgiving with you.
And that's going to be her decision.
But if both parties basically agree that there's more good here than bad, and there's no reason that this needs to be an issue, just like if you were, you know, you could be Jewish, I could be Muslim.
It could be an issue.
But if both parties agree it's not an issue, then why make it an issue?
And I wasn't asking you in terms of like have a struggle session with me.
I think it's interesting because I know so many people are up against this in their own life.
So to me, the public people that you then are like, oh, they really think these different things, how they navigate that, I think is, it's super interesting for people because everyone, it has nothing to do with fame or being on TV.
Everyone's trying to deal with that.
How do I deal with a friend who's who I think's gone off the deep end?
I think also if you know somebody is a lovely person, then it's much easier to understand who they are and maintain a relationship.
So if you are a common person who only knows somebody from TV or from their podcast or wherever you may consume them, then you really only know that part of them.
And then the only part of that person you know is the part you disagree with.
But you don't know the part where they're cooking for you.
You know this part.
You know what I mean?
But I know the part.
So you know the part of Jimmy where he's on his late night show doing a monologue talking about shit you disagree with.
Well, I mean, the thing about it was, is as far as a compensation, they weren't going to pay you if you're going to spin records.
They were going to pay you if you were syndicated and talked and got an audience for them.
So what happened to me is I had a year of, sorry, I had like nine months, nine and a half months or something left on my contract.
So I was let go in 2009, February.
I had till the rest of the year, till the end of the year to get paid.
And then my contract was going to be cut off and there'll be no more income.
And I had worked in radio for a decade or more, more than a decade before that.
So I had contracts, you know, so I was always pretty comfortable with the concept of a contract, you know.
And I stopped working on terrestrial radio on a Friday and I started podcasting the following Sunday night.
I just went right there.
And there was no compensation and there was no model for advertising or financially being made whole again, really, because I was paying thousands and thousands of dollars for bandwidth at the time.
So the show was popular.
And so I was paying $9,000 a month on bandwidth.
So what I had in February of 09 is I had three-year-old, two and a half-year-old kids, young twins, probably your kids' age, basically, maybe a little bit younger, no job, and a new business that costs $9,000 a month with no income.
And podcasting was never anything that anyone had monetized really before.
There was a little bit like Bill Simmons was doing ESPN and he worked with ESPN and then did a podcast, but there was no independent guys just getting paid to do a podcast.
But I sort of liked the idea of it and I just wanted to keep up with it.
So I did it.
I did it every day.
And what ended up happening is at the end of the year, we weren't making any money doing the podcast, but it was popular enough that the Irvine improv, I mean, I was doing stand-up or whatever, but the Irvine Improv said, why don't you do the live podcast at the Irvine Improv?
And it's big.
It's like 500 seats.
And maybe we did two shows there and we sold out the Irvine Improv.
And all of a sudden we got paid to do a podcast, even though there was no podcasting money, but you could take it on the road and figure out a way to get paid.
And with that in mind, we're kind of like, well, we won't get paid to do the podcast, but we could sell merchandise through the podcast and we could do live shows through the podcast and we could do other ways to generate Amazon affiliations.
Click through Amazon will get four cents for every dollar you spend or whatever it was.
And ancillary ways to kind of pay the bills doing podcasting versus direct, you know, contracts and commercials and stuff like that.
So that's kind of where it began.
And I used to talk to guests all the time because I would have comedians immediately kind of come through and they would sit down.
And when they were done, they'd kind of go, it's kind of cool, you know, or whatever.
And I'd always go, you should do a podcast.
And I go, I don't have, you know, I have time for that or whatever.
But then they all ended up, now they're all doing a podcast.
But I don't know.
I'm kind of philosophical in that it's going to work for some people.
It's not going to work for other people.
Everything's that way.
Music's that way.
Everything worth doing is sort of, it's going to work for this group and it's not going to work for that group.
It's kind of weird that it's my longest running job, which is bizarre because it didn't exist.
But I do, I have this memory, which is kind of weird, which is when I was at the Acme Comedy Theater in the early 90s, probably 90, 91, sketch comedy, improv comedy.
I was talking to our director at the theater, the guy who oversaw everything.
And we were friends.
And like, I remember kind of I had done sketch and improv for a while with the Groundlings and then Acme and stuff.
But I wasn't really getting where I wanted to go.
And I said to the guy, whose name was Mark Sweeney, I said, Mark, be honest, what do you see for me?
Like, what do you, you're out there watching.
What's your take?
And he said, you need a job where you just talked into a microphone just all day, every day.
You just talk and know anything else, just you and a microphone.
And I was like, well, that's not a job.
Like that, that's where, what do you talk?
Like, it doesn't, you invented a job for me.
And he goes, that's what you should be doing, but that's not a job.
And so I was kind of like, thanks.
But then years later, I realized that's kind of what I ended up doing with podcasts.
What do you think has been like the key to longevity in doing this?
Because I'm sure you know plenty of people.
I was discussing this with Marr once, just the amount of, you know, you look back on like some of those 80s, 90s comedy specials, HBO and the Young Comics specials.
It was just like a new comic every week that could have been an all-star.
That could have been the next Seinfeld or the next whoever.
And so many of these guys that were incredibly talented disappeared.
And then guys that were kind of average but worked hard made it.
And there's every version of that.
What do you think has been like the kind of either through line for you or what you saw in guys that didn't quite get there?
He was right at the right place at the right time, you know?
And there's lots of those guys.
And then there is perennial, you know, then there's just sort of Pete Townsend, you know, and they're like, what's or Danny Elfman?
Okay, what's Danny Elfman do?
Well, he was in Oingo Boingo and he did weird pop music and new wave music or whatever.
And now he does scores for every movie.
Right, right.
Okay.
So he's a musician.
He's an artist.
And Lou Vega is a right time, right place.
And there's sort of comedians that are like right time, right place.
And then there's Albert Brooks.
You know, they're just there.
They're writing a book.
They're doing a screenplay.
They're making another whatever, whatever that thing is.
And, you know, I think if you can be kind of a, you know, you want to be a Danny Elfman or Albert Brooks, you know what I mean?
Because those guys have done all, you know, it's not like, well, they've, you know, Albert Brooks has done stand-up, but he's written books, but he's made movies, but he's done everything.
So for me, I'm like, well, I'd like to fancy myself more of an Albert Brooks than the sort of flash in the, you know, right time, right place.
Now, the right time, right place, you know, that's a boy band.
Yeah.
I mean, that's going to be bigger.
Albert Brooks will never have as big a year as the Backstreet Boy's biggest year.
Right.
But he'll have 50 years and they'll have four years or whatever, however, the math works out.
What I'm saying is, is the boy band thing is great, but that's lightning in a bottle and it's hard to do versus the kind of marathon versus the sprint.
And I've also thought to myself, like, my metaphor in show business is you just have to be a train that's going 100 miles an hour and you have to throw track in front of that train.
That track's not there.
You have to get in front and throw it out there.
You have to have projects that are going to happen in six months and four months and a year from now, you know, that kind of thing.
But for me, I, my thing is, is a little sense of what have you done for me lately?
Like, I wake up every day and kind of like, all right, you got to, let's do something.
Let's get it going.
Let's got to produce a little.
I never sort of get up and go, well, you've done all these things.
You know, you should relax a little bit.
I have a very like, what's next mentality.
Also, I have a kind of a like, well, you're funny, so you should be able to write a book and you should be able to do stand-up or you should be able to create an animated series or make a dock.
I have a kind of like, you're funny, so you should be able to push that whatever direction.
I knew the rebuild was not going to be anytime soon.
And I, so what happened with me is I was forced to evacuate my place in Malibu, which did not burn down, but literally everything around it burned down.
It was just insane luck.
So I was forced to relocate like two in the morning or something, something late, you know, crazy wind blowing fire engines everywhere.
Got out, drove to like a holiday inn in Burbank, California, checked in.
The winds were blowing so hard that the power lines all blew over in Glendale, too.
And my studio had no power.
So I was in my hotel room literally while the fires were still going on, just six hours after they started, just looking at the news, trying to see if I could spot where our house was.
And I was told there was no power on at the studio.
So now I'm in this hotel room in Burbank and it's sort of like, well, maybe we'll just run a best of or something.
People understand because of the fires and everything.
And I said, well, you know, why don't we just sort of set up a camera right here, you know, move the chair and then pull the table over in the Burbank holiday inn and just put the camera there and I'll just go solo and I'll just do like a little five, 10 minute update.
I'm still alive.
We don't have a show today.
It's the power's out.
Of course, it was 45 minutes of me screaming about the government turned into, but it was six hours after the fires.
Like, there will be no permits.
You'll not be rebuilding.
This is not going to happen.
The Coastal Commission is going to get involved.
You will find out firsthand what it's like to try to build, and you're going to find out right now.
And I just said all that, and it got a little viral.
And I don't know why, but I was like, I've known this my whole, I work construction.
I'm aware of this.
I've dealt with the city.
I've dealt with plan check permits.
I've dealt with Van Euy's downtown LA.
I've dealt with all of it.
So this is not going to happen.
And I do realize that I talk to so many like lay people, you know, in LA and they'll say stuff like, oh, I want to put a bedroom up on the second floor, like a master suite.
And I'll go, good luck.
And they'll go, what's the problem?
And I go, what's the problem?
They'll go, I'm just going to do it.
I go, no, you're not going to do it.
And they're going, well, then I'll get a permit and do it.
I'll go, maybe you'll get a permit.
I don't know if you're getting a permit.
They'll go, why not?
And I'll go, oh, you've never dealt with this bureaucracy.
So I knew it was happening and going to happen.
And lo and behold, as we're coming up on one year, I mean, we are weeks away from one year down PCH.
The only thing that has gone up is graffiti because in LA, if you stood still long enough in LA, you would end up getting tagged.
Anything, but it takes a while.
Like if you're in Bellflower and you put up a new garage door, it's getting tagged that night.
But Malibu takes a while, but it's still sedentary.
But putting him aside for a second, wouldn't you think that they would be doing everything possible to kind of disprove what everyone now says about Cali and go ahead and do something in the last year?
Or is it just that the machinery isn't that corroded and stuck and rotten or whatever you want to call it?
No, I mean, you, you know, we have a Golden Gate Bridge.
You know, I don't know how you would the Golden Gate Bridge get built today.
It couldn't get built today.
But it's also, there's a lot of process people that want to talk about everything.
You know, Trump is interesting because Trump's a commercial builder and commercial builders are always in a hurry.
So building is like, where's my foundation guy?
Where's my soils guy?
Like everything, everything is sort of hurry, hurry, hurry.
You're like, why aren't we pouring the foundation?
The soils report hasn't come back.
Will somebody get that soils report so we can pour?
You know, and then where's the framer?
Where's my steel guys?
Where's my glazers?
Where's my glass guys?
You know, just it keeps going till you get to flooring and drywall.
And it's like, hurry, hurry, hurry.
And then you get Karen Bass, who's like, well, I like to hang out in either Cuba or Ghana and dance.
You know what I mean?
And it's like, hurry.
So they're doing that presser after the fire.
And Trump's like, let's go.
Let's go.
And Karen Bass is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow it down.
Safety, but safely.
She says it.
Yeah, we go clear that, clear those lots.
And she's, but safely, safely means bring it down.
We got to get a report, we need environmental report, an impact report, we need source report.
Slow down, slow down.
So that's their world.
So they're in their world, they're just kind of, they don't want rebuilding and they don't, they're not uncomfortable by it, which you'd kind of wish they were.
Like, come on, let's go.
I don't know what they have to prove.
It doesn't seem like their constituencies that interested in that either for some reason.
It's like they revel in the fact that things are terrible.
You know, when I was running all my illegal COVID parties that you were coming to, all everyone was talking about was basically complaining about how things were.
But then everyone, all my crew, except for you, pretty much, everyone got the hell out of there because we couldn't take the complaining anymore.
But there's a certain set of people that like being in it and like the slow descent to hell.
They have like Karen Bass and Gavin Newsom have talked much more about fighting Trump and then allying with the LGBT community and fighting ICE than they've said anything about rebuilding anything.
It's not even if Karen Bass gives a presser, it's something about fighting ICE.
It has nothing to do with expediting permits or anything like that.
So she's not in.
She's not interested.
I don't know what Gavin Newsom wants to be president.
He's not interested.
And best I can tell, neither one of them are interested, which is, you know.
Let me let's end on a little of the spiritual side because we've done the physical side and I told you how much I love that line of yours.
You mentioned Dennis Prager before, who's a very, very good friend of both of ours.
And, you know, he's he's basically a quadriplegic at the moment.
He can move a little bit above here and his mind is okay and he's speaking again.
And I've been thinking a lot for the last three or four months, really post-Charlie's death.
Charlie Kirk is gone.
Dennis Prager is at least largely out of public life for now and who knows where his future will hold.
Another one of our friends, Jordan Peterson, is quite ill at the moment.
Like we've lost three, at least temporarily massive intellectual heavyweights, but also cultural warriors, people that have been on the front lines of everything that you and I care about.
What do you make of that?
Even though I know you're not like a deeply spiritual guy in that sense, but what do you make of like that sort of thing?
I, you know, I hope that those people sufficiently inspired enough people to replace them essentially, which is going to happen anyway.
You know, Thomas Soule's not going for another 50 years.
You know, they're going to have to be replaced.
I think their legacy is hopefully influencing enough people to take their place as they slough off and as we all get older and eventually end up somewhere other than here.
So I'm hoping there's that.
You know, I like that I like comedy and I like building, but I also like that sort of philosophical thing as well.
And maybe if I end up doing a little more of that as you get older, you know, you get maybe less into bits and jokes and hijinks and prank calls and a little more into something that's a little more ethereal and intellectual or something like that.
So I'd be happy.
I'm pleased that you hear my little house on the prairie analogy and vibe with it a little bit.
So, but yeah, I mean, I, you know, you know, whether it's a Prager or Peterson or Charlie Kirk or David or sorry, Sol.
Yeah, those guys don't come along that often.
You know, I mean, I don't know how they would, you know, so we're going to have to listen to them while they're here.
But also, I think different than Plato and Socrates, we have a lot of high-def 4K images of them sitting down.