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May 24, 2025 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin
49:13
Exposing the Truth About South Africa’s Collapse | Rob Hersov
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dave rubin
11:02
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robert hersov
37:18
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robert hersov
There are ten elements that make up genocide, starting with classification, organization, persecution, and all the way down to extermination and denial.
And South Africa has probably seven of those ongoing simultaneously.
dave rubin
Okay, so what really happened at that point?
So, apartheid ends, things are looking good.
2008, people are now on to other issues in the world.
So why didn't the gravy train continue?
robert hersov
South Africa has gone backwards and fixed investment in infrastructure.
And if you go outside of the Western Cape, which is run by the opposition party, called the Democratic Alliance, it's almost another world.
There are potholes in the roads.
There's raw sewage in the street.
The country is falling apart.
Absolutely falling apart.
I see South Africa as Germany 1933.
In the Western world, Macmillan, We can't say boo to black governments in Africa.
Well, Donald Trump has said, I'm not taking this anymore.
dave rubin
How did you feel when you saw the 59 people coming here?
robert hersov
Do you know what Cyril Ramaphosa called those people?
I called them cowards.
He's the coward.
They're not cowards.
It is edgy in South Africa.
It is dangerous.
I've had a lot of threats.
It's cost me a lot of money.
I've been kicked off boards, kicked out of companies that I founded.
I get deplatformed.
But I'm through it all.
I don't care anymore.
because every day I get messages from people I know and people I don't know saying thank you for giving us a voice.
dave rubin
Music All right, Rob Herzog, this is round two.
I did not know what was going to happen to round one, but round one, which we did in February at Jordan Peterson's R Conference in London, I did not know much about you before you sat down with me.
We did a little research.
We sat down.
We had a great conversation.
We put the thing up.
It was an interesting conversation to me.
I don't know a ton about South Africa.
I've learned a lot since.
That video and that interview went bananas.
Elon retweeted it twice.
It caused South Africa to be the number one trend on X. Subsequently, South Africa has now become a hot topic here in America.
As we're taping this right now, your president is here.
He was at the White House a couple days ago.
There's a lot of talk about what's going on in your country.
You're an investor.
You're a businessman, entrepreneur.
I sort of view you as what Crocodile Dundee is to Australia.
You seem like the Crocodile Dundee of your country.
For those that didn't see the beginning part, let's just do a little bit of your history, and then we'll get caught up into all of the politics around what's happening in your neck of the world at the moment.
robert hersov
So I'm 64-year-old South African, born in Johannesburg, South Africa, fifth generation South African, born to sort of British-Scottish on my maternal side, and then And I was born into real wealth in South Africa.
So my grandfather and his business partner founded a mining industrial business, which in the 60s, 70s, 80s was one of the big five mining industrial businesses in South Africa.
And I grew up in, you know, I was given every opportunity in life.
And I took pretty much every opportunity and made the best of it, or I believe I did.
You know, did schooling in university and military service in South Africa and then came to America.
Worked at Goldman Sachs, New York, Harvard Business School.
Worked as Rupert Murdoch's right-hand man in New York City and then moved in the early 90s to Europe where I had big corporate jobs and then went out on my own.
As an entrepreneur.
Had failure, had success, and I've been in sports, media, finance, technology, and aviation.
dave rubin
And you look like more Miami guy than me at the moment.
I'm dressed in the wrong city.
You're very much in the Miami mode right now.
I guess the first part that we should start at as it relates to your history is people hear, okay, five generations in South Africa, a certain amount of people they only hear, they only associate that with one thing, which obviously is apartheid.
So can you talk a little bit about that and a little bit what it was like to grow up as a white person from a wealthy family in the midst of all of that?
robert hersov
So, you know, as a kid, you grow up in what you think is normal, whether it's in a communist society, in a gulag, or in an apartheid South Africa.
I grew up in real privilege.
You know, big homes, airplanes, staff.
That was my life.
And I went to boarding school and then university military service.
But there was always this pervasive feeling that things were not right.
And we'd always go Christmas holidays, skiing in Switzerland or France.
And, you know, you realize even as a young child.
that's something odd about your country.
dave rubin
And at certain points in everyone's life as a South African child, What was it as a child that you realized?
It was just a feeling, or was it literally like, oh, these people are- Yeah.
unidentified
Yeah.
dave rubin
And it was beyond skin color, like they're being treated differently.
robert hersov
Correct.
Correct.
And the butler of our house, who was a wonderful Zimbabwean called Mr. Pete, that was his name.
I'm called Mr. Rob in South Africa, by the way.
Yeah.
Who I loved.
I used to play football with him every day.
Make ice creams and things like that.
And one day I wanted to go to the cinema.
I must have been nine years old.
And I couldn't take him with me.
And I asked my parents, why not?
And they said, he's not allowed to go to the cinema with you.
Those are the laws of the country.
And I started crying.
And, you know, the penny drops at some point.
Do you think it's normal that there are these people that are your staff, that work for you, that live in some other place?
And you live with all your friends, white friends in a certain area.
But do you think that's normal?
But it wasn't normal, and you realize that at some point.
dave rubin
Can you explain some of the complexities around that?
Because I think people just look back at history and they're like, oh, these people were automatically the evil ones, these people were automatically the good ones.
I suspect that you probably came from a pretty decent family and all of those things, but that these inequities existed, and yet they're living in a system that is not a good system, but that doesn't mean they're not good people.
And how did you come to grips with that?
So you have this moment at nine.
But now you're growing up through that.
robert hersov
So South Africa was only formed as a country in 1910.
Prior to that, we had different provinces, different republics, and only became a union of South Africa in 1910.
And before that, we had, you know, the Great Trek, where the mainly Afrikaner farmers didn't want to be under British rule in the Cape and moved inland in their ox wagons to conquer the interior.
And in many cases, they met up with the black tribes for the first time.
600 kilometers from Cape Town.
And the black tribes had migrated down from East Africa over the last thousand years.
The white arrivals, colonialists, I hate using that word because we are African, white African, arrived in 1652.
And I think the Mayflower was 1620, so similar times.
dave rubin
Mostly from Holland.
robert hersov
Mostly from Holland, escaping, you know, they were Huguenots, and they were escaping persecution by the Catholics.
And they came to Georgia and the US and Louisiana and South Africa and were incredibly successful.
And then the British arrived and all the other countries arrived and gold was discovered and everyone ported to South Africa.
And there was a mishmash of black tribes and different, you know, white tribes from different places.
But the fundamental white tribe of South Africa is the Afrikaner.
And everyone's heard that word.
It's the Afrikaner refugees.
We're arriving in America.
dave rubin
Those 59 people that showed up that suddenly have MSNBC freaking out.
robert hersov
Yes, exactly.
dave rubin
Are there more coming?
Is that official?
robert hersov
Yeah, more coming.
But, you know, everybody freaks out.
But they're the original white tribe of Africa.
And then we Anglos are the other white tribe of Africa.
And so South Africa's had wars.
We've had chaos, we've had cooperation, But in 1948, after the Second World War, we had an election where the Afrikaner National Party won the election.
And that was the beginning of a constitutionally-based system called apartheid.
What apartheid means in Afrikaans is separateness, apartheid, separateness.
And the intention was that you're a different ethnicity and a different culture.
Have your own areas, have your own schools, and stick to your own cultures, and we mingle when we have to through employment and through other elements.
And that was the beginning of apartheid.
And it obviously evolved from there to a point where, in 1985, the Afrikaner national government got together, and because of international sanctions, because of demographics, and because they saw where the world was going, they decided apartheid was unsustainable.
They made a conscious decision.
It's not sustainable.
And in 1994, having released Nelson Mandela after 27 years in jail, South Africa had its first democratic elections, and the ANC, African National Congress, swept to power.
They got 80-something percent of the country, which meant a lot of the white people voted for them too.
And only Cape Town and the Western Cape, this little strip down in the bottom corner of Africa, did not vote for the ANC.
And never has.
And when you look at South Africa, somebody asked me, is it a geographic or a management problem?
The geography issue is that it is twice the size of France, South Africa.
It's huge.
And the Western Cape has nothing to do with KZN, has nothing to do with Mpomolongo.
I think there are 26 languages.
There are 12 national languages, 26 different languages.
The white tribe is made up of the Anglos and the Afrikaners.
The black tribes have got 15, Yitzhwana, Zulu, Kosa, Sutu.
Then there are the people of Indian extraction.
And then there's a group called the coloreds.
And the colored people are the mix of the blacks and the white people.
So South Africa is geographically confusing and ethnically and culturally confusing.
It shouldn't be one country.
dave rubin
So as apartheid was falling apart and you're in a family that...
Was your family fighting against it?
I mean, did everyone sort of realize, I guess you sort of referenced this, but did everyone sort of realize this is going to end one way or another, and it's either going to end extremely poorly, or we're going to have to kind of let it go?
robert hersov
So there was always democracy.
The whites had the vote under apartheid.
And only the whites.
And the parliament was made of only white people.
But there was a vigorous opposition.
Harry Oppenheimer, the richest South African by far, who created De Beers, an Anglo-American, and was of Jewish extraction from Europe, he was vocal in standing up against the national government.
and an incredible Jewish woman, Helen Sussman, was in parliament as the main voice against the National Party and against apartheid.
So there were a lot of people who because the Jews were great supporters of bringing down apartheid.
dave rubin
We got our own version of that with the Democrats.
robert hersov
Exactly.
dave rubin
It was the Jews marching with Martin Luther King.
robert hersov
Insane.
So, 1994, Mandela gets released.
Democracy rules.
And from 1994 to about 2008, everything worked wonderfully.
It was called the Rainbow Coalition.
You know, there were whites, blacks, colors, and Indians in positions of power.
It was a meritocracy.
Our country grew at 3%, 4%, 5% economic growth a year.
500,000 jobs were added every year in that period.
And the country was working.
You know, there was investment.
And the world basically said, Look what we've done.
We've saved South Africa from a horrible future.
We've been successful.
Well done, South Africa.
And then they looked the other way.
The world turned to look for the next thing to solve.
And from 2008, a man called Jacob Zuma came to power, followed by Cyril Ramaphosa.
dave rubin
Right.
robert hersov
And then the rock really set in.
dave rubin
Okay, so what really happened at that point?
And that'll obviously get us to where we are now.
Things are looking good.
2008, people are now on to other issues in the world.
So why didn't the gravy train continue?
robert hersov
Because within the ANC original doctrine, which I think is 1920s, 1930s, was built the Soviet playbook.
And it has been implemented slowly and effectively.
Donald Trump calls South Africa DEI as a country, and he's absolutely right.
dave rubin
Yeah, and I think this is why Americans are now feeling this story.
robert hersov
And what happened was, Nelson Mandela stood as a giant, as a saint, astride the ANC, South Africa, and the evil ANC doctrine of implementing racist policies, socialist policies, and he kind of managed the transition.
Mbeki, who followed him, did the same.
He had his faults.
But in general, everything was working.
But Jacob Zuma, trained in Russia, came to power.
Not a very intelligent man, a populist.
But he began to implement the National Democratic Revolution, NDR.
Everything with three letters seems bad.
And RET, Radical Economic Transformation.
unidentified
That kind of says it right there.
robert hersov
And from then on, they implemented something called CADRE, or CADRE, C-A-D-R-E, deployment.
And Cyril Ramaphosa, our president, was a member of that committee, secret, inside the ANC, that basically said, we need to replace any white person that is a position of power, authority, or handles a budget.
And I'm not talking about just senior people.
I'm talking about a small-town manager of a sewage work, small-town manager of the people that pick up rubbish or handle the electricity.
They were replaced, one by one by one.
dave rubin
So this is why I think Trump has hit something with the connection to America, because we've been playing these videos of the mayor of Chicago basically doing the exact same thing right now.
robert hersov
But they put in place people who were loyal.
But not competent, not clever, people that would obey instructions.
And a maintenance budget, a maintenance budget was basically an opportunity to steal.
They'd hire consultants, pay their friends, and the de-industrialization of South Africa began then.
South Africa has gone backwards in fixed investment in infrastructure, and if you go outside of the Western Cape, which is run by the opposition party, It's called the Democratic Alliance.
It's almost another world.
There are potholes in the roads.
There's raw sewage in the street.
There's E. coli off the coast of Durban.
Surfers can't surf.
Things are falling apart.
And if you go to towns like, even Johannesburg, downtown Johannesburg is basically Mogadishu.
The country has fallen apart.
dave rubin
You didn't tell me that when you invited me to your house.
robert hersov
No, I invited you to Cape Town.
dave rubin
Oh, okay.
robert hersov
That was a good part of it.
dave rubin
Oh, okay, okay, okay.
robert hersov
And it's been an absolute meltdown.
And from 2008 to today, the country has grown.
I mean, it's growing at 1% and less.
Population growth at 2% means we get poorer every year.
The country is falling apart, absolutely falling apart.
We have load shedding, which means you get six hours a day of no electricity.
How do you run an economy on that basis?
And it's because the ANC know how to break so they can steal.
They break so they can steal.
They're kleptocrats, ineptocrats, and let me just keep going on the adjectives.
They're racist, anti-white, and anti-coloured and anti-Indian, socialist, anti-American, and anti-Semitic.
That is our ANC government.
And that is, the head of the ANC is Cyril Ramaphosa, who was in the White House yesterday.
A disgrace he is.
dave rubin
Okay, so obviously we'll get to the racial reckoning that seems to be happening now.
But on the economic side, or just on the day-to-day life side, so they start instituting these policies, they're hiring inept people.
I mean, this quite literally sounds exactly like our previous government, which was hiring based on skin color and gender and sexuality and the rest of it.
And we saw what the fruits of that were.
People start waking up to it, but is it just not enough people to turn it around?
I mean, what's happening to the functioning people?
Are they all going to, you know, galt's gulch?
robert hersov
So what happens is, it's not just that.
They institute policies called Black Economic Empowerment.
Sounds good.
And that begins in the mid-90s.
And everybody said, okay, we do need more of the previously disadvantaged.
dave rubin
There's some reckoning that needs to be.
robert hersov
Yeah, we've got to bring them into the economy.
We've got to bring them into the capitalist world.
We've got to empower people, make them make money and things like that.
But black economic empowerment started off as something that even the big corporates accepted.
So any company that does business with the government has to have at least 30% of its shareholdership owned by previously disadvantaged.
And that used to mean blacks, coloreds, and Indians.
Now it only means friends of the ANC.
The vast majority of South Africa has not benefited from that at all.
And so, 30% of any company that does business with the government has to be black-owned.
But they're extending that by the year.
There's now a broad-based black economic compound.
and they're trying to push through a law that companies with more than 50 employees, private companies, real estate agents, have to have the same.
So you have a private company with We're also massively over-regulated.
I'll give you an exact number.
There are 140 race-based laws in South Africa, and 111 of them were added after 1994.
So the ANC government has instituted a racist policy.
and are creating what I call economic genocide.
And we're going to It's been used a lot.
dave rubin
We will get back to that word.
robert hersov
I want to explain.
dave rubin
Well, it's interesting because when you said to me on the show a few months ago, 140 race-based laws, you said it to me live and air, and we don't edit for content, but in my head I was thinking, could that possibly be true?
And then we aired it.
We aired it, of course, as we always do without editing.
And then immediately I saw all these people saying, that simply can't be true.
There's just no way.
And then, of course, all the fact-checkers came in and we checked on Grok and everything else, and it absolutely is true, for sure.
And the quotas that you just mentioned also are true.
Was there some way that this could have gone a different direction in some sense?
Like, was the reaction to something that was prejudiced, let's say, going to lead to this no matter what?
robert hersov
So there's something that's happened in South Africa, which began with Jacob Zuma, but it was really built into the Soviet playbook, the ANC playbook, one in advance, called state capture.
And state capture is you capture the...
And all of a sudden, people wake up and they can't go anywhere.
They're trapped.
So big corporates, people go, "Rob, why are you the only businessman in South Africa standing up?" And I've been very vocal about saying that the corporate South African is a coward, a colluder, or has been captured.
And I had a very good friend of mine who runs one of the biggest supermarket chains.
In South Africa, took me aside and said, Rob, you're being unfair on the corporate chieftains.
They do the best they can.
They're not cowards.
Some are colluders, but they really have been captured.
And I said, tell me what you mean.
He said, big corporates have the PIC, the Public Investment Corporation, government entity, like a sovereign wealth fund, invested in their businesses for 10, 20, 30%.
And they have directors.
They have You know, DEI appointees.
They have unions.
They have employees that don't know if they're going to make it to the next paycheck.
And there's some white-colored Indian or black chief executive earning a salary, earning equity, that is supposed to stand up, Rob.
You're telling them to stand up and call out the government.
How are they going to do that?
They're captured.
They've got people on their board that won't let them speak.
They've got jobs.
They've got, you know.
And I kind of felt...
dave rubin
Right.
Well, it shows you how at every level it seats into everything.
robert hersov
As you said, at what point could people have got together and stood up and say no more?
Well, the playbook has been played out very effectively.
And South Africans are captured.
They're trapped or captured or they've left.
dave rubin
Yeah.
robert hersov
And a million South Africans, mainly white, have left the country.
Left.
Gone the other way.
dave rubin
I'm guessing you've seen at least portions of that Yuri Bezmenov video, the KGB agent, who talks about how you subvert a society, and you don't do it overnight.
It actually does take decades, and you've laid out some of that.
So before we get to the White House, because it's an incredible moment what happened there.
I mean, it really was extraordinary watching Trump pull out the video and the photos and all that stuff.
So give me just sort of what's happened even in the last two years as it pertains to the white, So,
robert hersov
everyone, when they hear genocide, think of one word, extermination.
dave rubin
Right.
robert hersov
But genocide, if you go to the United Nations definition, but I've also given your team a great slide they can put up, there are 10 elements that make up genocide, starting with classification, organization, persecution, and all the way down to, you know, extermination and denial.
So there are 10 elements.
Very interesting.
And South Africa has probably seven of those ongoing simultaneously.
Now, extermination, has not taken place.
Okay?
And I'll talk about farm attacks in a second, but there is not a mass extermination of minority South Africans yet.
But if you listen to Julius Malema, and that video was played in the White House yesterday, he said 90,000 people jumping up and down the stadium, kill the boer, kill the farmer, one settler, one bullet.
But he said a terrible thing on an interview.
He said, we have not yet Cut the throat of whiteness.
unidentified
Yeah.
robert hersov
Not yet.
South Africa could be Germany in 1933.
We have the dangerous populace, not in brown shirts, in red berets, jumping up and down and openly and publicly threatening to kill minorities, especially white people.
We have that already.
We have a Soviet playbook being pulled out, which is economic genocide, which is already in place, you know, taking as much as you can away from minorities to chase them away or take away what they have, and then signed into law in December, expropriation without compensation in law by So this is the farmer portion of this, correct?
Well, this is the beginning.
And then Cyril Ramaphosa denies that farm attacks are anything different.
He says South Africa is a violent society.
There are farm attacks.
Everybody's under threat.
If you live in the townships as a poor person, you're just as likely to be killed.
Not true.
There are 30,000 commercial farmers in South Africa.
There are 3 million commercial farmers in America.
If you take 2000 to 2020, the number of South African farmers murdered, not attacks, murders, and there are about 45% of the attacks are murders.
Torture and rape are 20% of them.
Torture and rape.
And it's not just white farmers, but it's mostly white farmers.
If you take the numbers of South African farmers that have been murdered, extrapolate that pro rata to the 3 million American, you would have had 234,000 farmers murdered in America from 2000 to 2020.
unidentified
Right.
dave rubin
I think of the numbers that we looked at at the show.
robert hersov
If you had 234,000 farmers murdered, do you think that would hit MSNBC?
dave rubin
Right.
Well, they'd be debating whether they deserved it or not.
Well, it depends on the skin color.
robert hersov
They'd be saying they deserved it.
dave rubin
Right.
I think the numbers that we showed on the show was it's 15,000% higher.
No, 1,500% higher than the population.
robert hersov
Bingo.
unidentified
Yeah.
robert hersov
And the other stat is that a farmer in South Africa is three times more likely to be killed than a policeman.
Than a policeman.
And a policeman is twice as more likely to be killed than an average citizen.
The most dangerous profession in South Africa is being a farmer.
dave rubin
Okay, so I think the average person who knows nothing about South Africa is going, well, wait a minute, why are you killing the farmers?
Regardless of what skin color you are, farmers make food.
Everyone likes food.
So what's going on here?
robert hersov
Well, farmers are isolated.
They're on a farm out in the middle of nowhere.
Load shedding, which has been the ANC's destruction of our electricity supply commission through corruption.
Has created this element thing called load shedding, which means X number of hours a day, you don't get electricity.
dave rubin
That's literally across the country.
robert hersov
Across the country.
dave rubin
No matter how much money you have.
unidentified
Correct.
robert hersov
Well, if you're wealthy, you have solar, diesel.
You know, we're off-grid completely at home.
unidentified
Wow.
robert hersov
Our own security, our kids go to private schools.
I mean, why do I need a government?
Why am I paying tax?
But farmers are isolated.
And when the electricity goes down, the alarm systems go down.
If they've got a generator or solar, you've got to be wealthy to do that.
That could be protected.
But, you know, it's one family, maybe one or two males in the house, not necessarily able to trust your staff because they might be scared and run away.
And horrific things happen.
20% of the murders involve torture and rape of women and children.
dave rubin
So what's that portion of it?
robert hersov
Well, it's partly economic, but it's very much racially driven because to actually torture someone means you have a hatred and it's a racial hatred.
So Cyril Ramaphosa claims it doesn't exist and it's no worse than any other problem in South Africa.
He's lying.
He's a coward.
He's evil.
dave rubin
And what percentage, I don't know if you know the number of this, but what percentage of the farmers are white versus black?
Because this was a debate on CNN the other day.
robert hersov
Of the arable land in South Africa, 22% are owned by white farmers.
And 7% of the population is white.
It used to be 20% in the 80s.
Now 7%.
dave rubin
Right.
So first off, they don't like that right there.
robert hersov
Well, they don't like anything.
They don't like that.
unidentified
Right.
robert hersov
They look at it and say, well, you should only have 7%, but that makes no sense at all.
But highly productive, isolated, and vulnerable.
And the police and army under the ANC has done nothing, nothing to protect the farmers.
They've left it to themselves.
It's a crisis waiting to happen.
I see South Africa as Germany in 1933.
And the Western world, Macmillan, appeasement, everything's okay.
We can't say boo to black governments in Africa.
Well, Donald Trump has said, I'm not taking this anymore.
Britain and Europe have been pathetic.
Self-diplomacy doesn't work.
They're looking the other way.
The leftists think we deserve it.
Only Donald Trump.
Republicans and some Democrats, because it's been somewhat bipartisan, thank God, are paying attention to South Africa.
dave rubin
So what do you think moved the attention?
I mean, I genuinely don't mean this to pat myself on the back, but I think our interview did move the dial a little bit.
That thing, it was the number one trend on Twitter for almost two days because of that.
But what do you think really shifted in the last three months that gets us to the moment that we'll get to momentarily in the White House?
robert hersov
So thank you.
Your interview made a huge difference.
There's an only other South African that's been speaking internationally is Ernst Rutz, extraordinary guy, but there are unsung heroes, Gary Player, Ernie Els, the golfers who have access to Donald Trump.
Gary Player, 30-year friendship with Donald Trump, national hero.
And there are other South Africans who are David Sachs, Elon Musk.
To a less extent, Rulof Porta, Peter Thiel.
These are all people who are educated in South Africa, grew up there, or from South Africa.
dave rubin
Was Peter Edgy?
He's from Germany originally.
unidentified
And he was, he was, Oh, is that right?
I know that.
robert hersov
We're claiming everyone.
dave rubin
Apparently.
robert hersov
Roger Federer's mum's South African.
We're claiming him too.
dave rubin
So basically, you think there were suddenly enough people, obviously the Elon thing, probably specifically, but Sachs, who's in the administration as well.
You think there were enough people suddenly around him?
And then, because of the other things that you discussed around how this is DI on steroids, sort of, and all the weird racial crap that we have here now.
The story just connects enough.
It's gelled.
It's gelled.
Yeah.
robert hersov
And, you know, of the million South Africans that have left, they have been disproportionately successful in America and in Europe.
So, I did some work.
The 23 dollar billionaires in America, born in South Africa.
The richest man in LA, Elon Musk.
The second richest, Patrick Soon-Shong, both from South Africa.
The founder is Monster Drink, South African.
The founder of Encino, South African.
These are huge.
The guy I met last night, incredible guy, Matthew Rabinovitz, South African.
Everyone says the Indian diaspora that has outgunned everyone else.
But they're the corporate chieftains.
The South Africans own the businesses.
dave rubin
So you can see why this doesn't fit in their calculator.
unidentified
Correct.
robert hersov
And having been forced to leave the country they loved, the only way they can justify it And South Africans, all the wealthy South Africans over here and in Europe, have some family, a property, all great emotional feelings for the country.
And there's a buildup of angst.
And they've been speaking to Republicans, Democrats, and the buildup has happened.
And I think you getting me on the show has listed touch paper.
dave rubin
So now let's get to where we've been over the last couple of days.
The president comes here.
You're here.
You're not with the president, obviously.
It doesn't sound like he probably likes you that much.
robert hersov
He wouldn't have me in the room because I'd be standing with Elon Musk and J.D. Vance.
dave rubin
And I'm sure you saw that video.
We played it where Elon is just giving him the freaking death stare.
robert hersov
Good for Elon.
dave rubin
Yeah.
So obviously you're not with him, but you're traveling at the same time as him.
So there's an opportune moment, obviously, for you within this to get the story out in a new way.
Did you have any sense that he was going to walk into what he walked into at the White House?
I mean, you know.
robert hersov
I was hoping he'd walk into Zelensky times 10. Yeah.
I'm so disgusted with Cyril Ramaphosa and the ANC he represents.
And by the way.
dave rubin
What do you think he thought he was walking into?
Because in retrospect, it seems kind of obvious now.
robert hersov
Well, you know, he did.
dave rubin
Maybe not the showmanship of the videos and all that.
robert hersov
Quite clever.
So he took in his little entourage, John Steenhausen.
unidentified
Yeah.
robert hersov
The white.
Minister of Agriculture.
dave rubin
Who he kept pointing to.
robert hersov
Exactly.
Who's also head of the Democratic Alliance, the Opposition Party.
dave rubin
Yeah.
robert hersov
A South African billionaire and two famous South African golfers.
None of those three live in South Africa.
None of those two golfers, nor Johan Rupert, live in South Africa.
They've all left.
And all, you know, Donald Trump does have a liking for golfers and billionaires, and Johan Rupert is So having him there, I think, blunted a little bit the, I don't know what word to use, but the giving a Zelensky times 10 to Sororo Imposo, which he deserves.
dave rubin
Maybe it wasn't times 10, but it was...
robert hersov
times three.
dave rubin
I mean, so do you think he had a sense that he was going to walk into that?
I mean, he He's giggling like a schoolder.
Yeah.
He was terrified.
robert hersov
He's shifting around and giggling.
He's a pathetic, pathetic human being.
He really is.
Look, the MK party with Zuma and the EFF, economic freedom fighters, nothing to the economic or freedom, are the Red Berets.
Are way, way, way more dangerous than Sir Ramaphosa and what's left of his ANC.
And so we have a, for the first time ever, in May 2024, we had a national election.
For the first time in 30 years, the ANC didn't get a majority.
They went from 56% to 40% and had to form this coalition government called the GNU, Governments of National Unity, with the Democratic Alliance and a bunch of other parties.
So we have this kind of rainbow coalition which people was hoping is going to be.
dave rubin
So it doesn't hold that long.
I mean, that seems pretty obvious.
robert hersov
It's kind of hanging in there because the people want it.
South Africans want it.
They don't want the radicals.
88% of South Africans are Christian, conservative, church-going, slow-moving, and they're not stupid.
They know what's right and wrong.
The radicals they know are radical.
But they want South Africa to be a better place, but they're still a bit nervous to vote for the DAA.
You know, that's where we are.
Democracy in motion.
Things are working.
They're just working too slowly.
dave rubin
So what do you do with that?
I mean, so what does that mean that it's working?
robert hersov
So yesterday, you can look at it two ways.
You can say, Cyril Ramaphosa, with his little entourage, and white John Stenhausen, and the billionaire, and the two golfers, was trying to represent the middle ground of South Africa.
But they glossed over some of the key questions.
They didn't tell it like it is honestly to Donald Trump.
Like the statistics I've given you on farm attacks are real.
And only Retief Hoersen, the golfer, said, look, my family have farms.
They've all been attacked.
It's dangerous being a farmer.
That was it.
At least he told the truth.
And I think Cyril was lucky.
He got away with it a little bit through Ramaphosa.
I think Donald Trump could have been way tougher.
But maybe behind the scenes, Marco Rubio, who I respect, I mean, wow.
dave rubin
Wow.
robert hersov
I think he, I hate to say attack dog, but I think his job was to beat them to pulp behind the scenes, whereas Donald was kind of more respectful.
dave rubin
So, it's funny you're describing him as the respectful one because he's the one that busted out the video and everything else.
robert hersov
Which was genius.
dave rubin
No, it was an incredible optics.
The optics of it were just wonderful.
robert hersov
No one will forget that.
dave rubin
But so, what do you want your president to walk home with?
When he gets home, what do you want him to feel?
Oh man, we lost the United States now.
We better change.
I mean, what's the takeaway that you want him to do?
robert hersov
What I want America to do is not just chasten them.
For their racist and socialist laws, their anti-white laws, and for allowing partial genocide to take place.
unidentified
Okay?
robert hersov
Not just economic genocide fully in place, but real genocide to be, you know, this expropriation without compensation law.
I'm just thinking of the three words.
There's a loaded gun in a bedroom that everyone says we're not going to need it.
But kids are running around.
They'll pick the gun up and pull the trigger.
So why have a law called expropriation without compensation if you're not going to use it?
Hello?
So what would I like America to do?
dave rubin
What would they tell you that law is originally for?
What would be the for argument?
robert hersov
In the public interest.
But they can take the watch off your arm.
So what do I want?
I want Cyril Ramaphosa and his merry clowns to go back to South Africa and realize, They're in deep trouble.
The country's not fixable.
They know that.
And America can make a hell of a difference, carrot and stick.
The carrot, America can invest heavily, can revitalize our economy, give us economic growth, which we're not getting, but the stick.
And here's where I'm hoping.
The Donald Trump administration, Congressman Ronny Jackson's bill that's going to Congress, and will pick individuals in the South African government, And the radicals who've done hate speech, teamed up with Iran and Hamas, created racist and socialist, anti-American and anti-Semitic policies, are put on sanctions list individually.
Acid freezers, bank freezers, travel freezers.
The names are there.
It's the easiest list to create because there was the Zondo Commission.
Listen to this.
Four years of work, a billion rand of taxpayer money, 2,348 names mentioned.
Alleged and real criminal activity.
There's your list.
Pick the top guys.
Sanction them.
And that will change South Africa.
Because we're not going to change it internally.
So the stick needs to come.
And I think the team going back to South Africa are very well aware that Donald Trump was reasonably peaceful and charming in that meeting.
But they're being told behind the scenes, repeal expropriation without compensation.
Repeal racist black economic impound laws and withdraw the ICJ case against Israel as a fundamental basis before we even have proper talks with you.
That should be the standard.
Do these three things, then we'll talk to you.
dave rubin
As a sidebar for a moment, I mean, this ICC thing against Israel, it largely seems like it's fallen apart, but I mean, it basically originated in South Africa.
robert hersov
Paid by Iran.
dave rubin
Yeah.
robert hersov
I mean, it's crazy.
dave rubin
A country that actually knows apartheid now...
unidentified
Yeah.
robert hersov
I know.
So, the link, and America knows all this, by the way, the link between the ANC and Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, etc., radical Islamists, is provable, it's not alleged, it's provable, in Reims.
And the ANC was bankrupt just before the national election.
Had a few meetings in Iran.
Overnight, they were able to pay their bills.
Cyril Ramaphosa, our mighty president, is caught with millions of dollars in his sofa, in his house.
Hasn't had to explain why.
Where did that come from?
Iran.
These guys are bribed by Iran.
But they've run out of allies.
Russia and China are not going to ride to the ANC's rescue.
dave rubin
What do you think Iran saw in your country?
robert hersov
They saw a bribable entity that would then put a case against Israel.
They didn't want to do it.
They got South Africa to do it.
The country of great liberal democracy, of the ANC that saved from apartheid, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
Let's get South Africa to do it.
Let's bribe the ANC.
dave rubin
How did you feel when you saw the 59 people coming here?
Because obviously you want your country to be righted.
You just mentioned a million people largely who are successful and everything else have fled.
You don't want all these people to flee.
59 people show up.
There are families.
There's young kids, which we usually don't see coming through our borders.
robert hersov
You just see males in military age.
unidentified
Right.
dave rubin
And we never see anyone with an American flag.
59 people show up.
The media suddenly goes crazy.
They didn't mind when we had 12 to 16 million people, military age, rampaging through the border.
59 white people show up with American flag.
our media is not happy.
But how did that make you feel knowing that you, I think you want people to stay if they can.
robert hersov
I called them cowards.
He's the coward.
He's the person not standing up against criminality, corruption, evil.
He's the coward.
They're not cowards.
And people go, There's lots of elements of genocide that take place to create the whole package.
The same thing applies to refugee.
People's brains, simple brains, think refugee means ducking from a guard, escaping with your family in tow to escape certain death.
Those are not just refugees.
They're economic refugees.
They're refugees from persecution.
And white South Africans and colored and Indian South Africans are being persecuted and discriminated against.
That makes them refugees.
And I know some people are there for economic opportunity.
They think, I've got no future in South Africa.
But the reason they don't have a future in South Africa is because there's a glass ceiling.
Sorry, your pigment's wrong.
We're not going to promote you.
We need someone of a different pigment.
I don't see them any different from any other refugees.
dave rubin
Right.
Eventually, if you have the means, even if you're not being persecuted, literally, you know, Gestapo at your door, if you can go, you will go.
robert hersov
Correct.
So, I feel a certain sadness, but I think, why not?
Why shouldn't they go?
You know, my two older sons, one lives in the UK, one lives in America.
I don't want them to come back to South Africa.
I want them to be successful.
And if we can fix South Africa and turn it around, Then they can come back.
But why should they stay when you have less opportunity, you're being persecuted, and the ANC in this new GNU government, in this coalition, are pushing forward what they call transformation.
Another word that doesn't mean what it says.
They're pushing forward transformation even faster now because they think the gravy train might be gone.
It's not transformation.
dave rubin
Oh, so they're trying to, everything that they're ramping up, they're trying to do quicker It's further racism and further socialism.
robert hersov
The playbook's coming to head, the Soviet playbook.
So thank you, America.
Thank you, David Rubin, for putting the story on the map.
You know, we don't stand a chance of fixing it internally.
It's too slow.
Economy will collapse.
But thank you, America.
Thank you for taking notice.
dave rubin
Let me ask you a little bit on the personal side of all this, because anytime I have someone in that's speaking out against some stuff that has cost to them financially, but security-wise more than anything else.
You mentioned your two sons don't even live in your country anymore.
You don't have to be doing this, obviously.
You just mentioned you're kind of good to go.
You could just disappear and move to the Maldives or something.
Or move to Miami.
robert hersov
It's pretty sweet.
dave rubin
It is pretty sweet.
I mean, you got the Miami look already.
So was there a moment that you realized you had to do something?
Was it a specific thing that happened?
And how has it been talking to some of your colleagues, like you mentioned before, who are still in the system?
And I'm sure it's cost you friendships and relationships and all of this.
unidentified
A lot.
robert hersov
About four years ago, my wife's a New Zealander.
She's my soulmate.
She adores you.
dave rubin
Where is she?
robert hersov
She's in South Africa with the children.
She, about four years ago.
dave rubin
Oh, so you have other children in South Africa?
robert hersov
Yeah, I have a 13 and a 10-year-old.
I go to school and it is edgy in South Africa.
It is dangerous.
I've had a lot of threats.
It's cost me a lot of money.
I've been kicked off boards, kicked out of companies that I founded.
I get deplatformed, but I'm through it all.
I don't care anymore because I don't want to call it a calling.
But I am moving the needle.
And every day I get messages from people I know and people I don't know saying, thank you for giving us a voice.
And it makes such a difference to me, no, I'm moving the needle.
However, when it all started to happen, my wife said to me, I effing love this country.
It's worth fighting for.
And that just gave me the spine to keep going.
But last night, she called me in tears.
Some friends of hers had said, you need security.
You're in serious threat.
Surprised Rob hasn't been bumped off.
And separately, a friend of mine had heard something and called my wife and said, look, you know, I really think Rob should ease off on this public speaking.
And she called me almost in tears to say, I love you so much and I don't want you to get taken out or have anything happen to us.
And it's breaking my heart because I'm hurt.
I'm hurting her and putting her under stress.
I don't think I'm in danger.
But, you know, sometimes us males think we're immortal.
But I'm hurting.
She's scared.
And I did say to her last night that I will start easing out of this.
But she knows I don't want to.
dave rubin
Not today, apparently.
robert hersov
Not today, no.
I'd never let you down.
But it's very hard.
I want more people to stand up and then know that I've done my job.
There are others.
And they are coming.
They are.
But it's not from business, not from the corporate community, from civic society.
And there are a lot of other podcasts in South Africa, extraordinary people who are standing up and speaking out.
And I feel like they're moving the needle.
I don't have to as much anymore.
dave rubin
That should be the ending, but I'll give you one bonus one, which is, all right, I'm going to take you up on the offer.
I'm going to come to Cape Town by the end of the year.
What am I going to love about Cape Town more than anything else?
Because we've done a lot of the scary stuff here.
What am I going to love about your country?
robert hersov
You need to see more than just Cape Town.
But there is no more beautiful place on the planet.
If you take Sydney, San Francisco, Miami, squash them together, you still don't have Cape Town.
And you and your team, Will say that to me.
And you can't come for a week.
You've got to come for two or more.
And I'll arrange everything for you.
It's magical.
It's the food and the wine and the people and the weather and the scenery and the madness.
The madness is the best.
And it's good and bad.
You know, Cape Town is like the Mediterranean.
It's not the Wild West upcountry in South Africa.
It's like the Mediterranean.
It's gorgeous.
But, you know, our neighbor went for a walk in the forests and dog went into a bush.
Came out limping, dead 20 minutes later.
Bang!
Snake.
You know, the baboons come down from the mountains and attack the dogs.
dave rubin
I can deal with that.
We're in Florida.
We got gamers.
I can deal with that.
robert hersov
You've got allegations.
dave rubin
That'll be just fine.
robert hersov
And then people do have guns and are dangerous, and it's all there.
But the wonderful side outweighs the madness, and I love it there.
dave rubin
I have a feeling we will have set the internet on fire twice.
It's a pleasure.
robert hersov
Thank you.
dave rubin
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