Speaker | Time | Text |
---|---|---|
So these guys want to talk about J.K. | ||
Rowling? | ||
So what's going on with that? | ||
What do you want to know? | ||
unidentified
|
She's had a pretty controversial past. | |
I just want to know what are your thoughts on it? | ||
Do you still like her work despite her bigoted opinions? | ||
So let's get specific though. | ||
Let's define bigoted opinions. | ||
What opinions are bigoted? | ||
We're going to treat this as a thought experiment. | ||
I'm not going to say what's right or wrong or which way to think. | ||
The whole point is to learn how to think, not what to think. | ||
So when you say bigoted, you're starting with the conclusion that, given her bigoted opinions, so first let's start with, does she have bigoted opinions? | ||
unidentified
|
So when you say bigoted opinions... She has had a history of being extremely transphobic, I've heard. | |
You've heard, so what, can you give me an example? | ||
unidentified
|
Uh, if you look at her Twitter, I think you can see a few things. | |
If you want, I can try and find something. | ||
Yeah, see if you can find one. | ||
unidentified
|
So, one of these tweets that she came up with in 2019, she said, Dress however you please. | |
Call yourself whatever you like. | ||
Sleep with any consenting adult who will have you. | ||
Um, live your best life in peace and security, but force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real. | ||
So you find that bigoted? | ||
unidentified
|
What do you find about it? | |
It was deemed transphobic. | ||
Like, I myself... Do you find that transphobic yourself? | ||
I don't really have an opinion on it, but I'm just going with what a lot of other people have said. | ||
So let's pause it. | ||
Let's not go with what other people are saying. | ||
Let's try and learn how to critically think. | ||
So let's analyze the tweet ourselves. | ||
So that statement, do you see anything problematic, disregarding other people's opinions? | ||
unidentified
|
She did try and pin Some things on a specific group of people. | |
Where does she do that? | ||
Can you read that? | ||
unidentified
|
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real. | |
So when I hear that, I'm interpreting that as meaning If a woman says that, you know, saying that there's a difference between men and female and then being attacked as transphobic, I think that's what she's saying by attacking someone for stating that sex is real. | ||
unidentified
|
That is exactly what she is saying. | |
Is that transphobic to you? | ||
unidentified
|
So, to me, no. | |
Stating that sex is real is not transphobic. | ||
It's just a fact of life. | ||
It exists. | ||
So is there anything you disagree with in that tweet? | ||
unidentified
|
In that tweet, I can't really see anything that I myself disagree with. | |
Do you think it's fair that she's being attacked by a large group of people and people are calling her, like you said at the beginning of this conversation, you said, given the fact that J.K. | ||
Rowling is transphobic, how do you feel about Harry Potter? | ||
Now, retroactively looking at that statement, do you think that was the best way to phrase No, I feel like an idiot now. | ||
unidentified
|
It's okay though, but this is why we do this, to learn how to think. | |
So I came into work just thinking, I'm not going to say anything and maybe it'll just go away and I'll be able to keep moving. | ||
Obviously, I want to try and take advantage of an amazing opportunity, but to navigate the workplace, yeah, I'll just not say anything. | ||
And then the principal called me and he was like, dude, this is not going to work. | ||
Not saying anything. | ||
I'm Dave Rubin and joining me today is a teacher, a volunteer firefighter and founder of secret scholars on | ||
YouTube, Warren Smith. | ||
Welcome to The Rubin Report. | ||
Thank you so much for having me. | ||
This is amazing. | ||
Well, I'm thrilled to have you. | ||
We just played a little clip that people have seen before because it went crazy, crazy viral. | ||
We covered it on my show and it was across the Twitter sphere and everywhere else of you calmly, coolly Beautifully debunking some confusion of one of your students in real time. | ||
And these are the types of stories that I love covering on the show. | ||
When, when just a good, decent person out there kind of does the right thing and does it the right way and for the right reasons. | ||
So now that I've lifted you up, tell me how this whole thing sort of presented itself and how did it end up online and all the rest of it? | ||
Oh, that's a good question. | ||
We were doing a newscast with two students. | ||
I was in one of the students is going to be appearing on camera. | ||
Feeling a little bit nervous. | ||
So as a warm up, I said, let's just have a conversation, treat it like a podcast. | ||
What's something that interests you? | ||
What would you ask me? | ||
He said, Oh, I'd like to ask you about JK Rowling. | ||
All right, hit record. | ||
So these guys want to talk about JK Rowling. | ||
So what's up? | ||
And the rest was in that video, how it ended up online. | ||
I'd had that YouTube channel for a while. | ||
My background is in filmmaking. | ||
And as a filmmaker, my dream was to connect with an audience through films. | ||
And when I did see Jordan Peterson back in 2016-17, the way he used to record his lectures, I found that really inspiring. | ||
So, you know, I started playing with that when I did start teaching, just sort of as a way to have a teaching portfolio, but it was never getting any views. | ||
And I didn't expect that video to really get any views. | ||
I thought it was mildly interesting, but... | ||
Well, is that a method that you've used because you really do it so artfully to not upset the student and really try to get to, you know, why he's thinking the things that he thinks, um, as confused as they may be, but you're doing it in a very, in a way that is, it's, it's soft and you can watch his process. | ||
I think that's what people mostly, uh, were turned on by. | ||
Yeah, I wasn't consciously engaging in the Socratic method, necessarily. | ||
It was just... It's come kind of out of my life, being in a position where my family, my closest friends, all disagree with me on many things. | ||
And I kind of started to come to realizations when I was in graduate school, right around that time I was mentioning when I discovered you and Jordan Peterson. | ||
And I just kind of had to learn when not to talk and when I did talk to have a very good reason for doing so. | ||
And I needed to be able to articulate that reason. | ||
And when I did decide to do so, I needed to do it in a very gentle way. | ||
And the most effective way was usually through questions rather than trying to present a position and then allowing them to speak. | ||
So it was just a natural occurrence that I've used often in the classroom when navigating delicate issues where you don't know quite what anyone in the classroom is going to say, and you want to be professional. | ||
People are saying it's the Socratic method. | ||
An interesting question is, did Socrates even invent the Socratic method, or did he discover something that was already there, like an archaeologist uncovering an artifact? | ||
So it's ingrained within all of us. | ||
So if you're effectively communicating, you might end up using questions. | ||
Were you worried at all that when it went viral, that even though it was nice probably for you to get some accolades, of course, and it was seen all over the place, I mean, millions and millions of times, but that maybe the student himself would be upset or felt like he didn't come out looking good or something like that? | ||
Yeah, that's an interesting question. | ||
I wasn't worried about the student. | ||
I knew the student was a very well-balanced young man, and he's got a good head on his shoulders. | ||
I was, if I'm being honest, I was a bit nervous about... To be honest with you, Dave, I didn't quite understand who... I saw it getting views, but when you're online, I've never been in this situation. | ||
I don't really understand this landscape that well. | ||
So I see people viewing it, but who are those people? | ||
Where are they? | ||
How many of those people are actually in my daily life? | ||
Who at work is going to see it? | ||
So I came into work just thinking, I'm not going to say anything and maybe it'll just go away and I'll be able to keep moving. | ||
Obviously, I want to try and take advantage of an amazing opportunity. | ||
But to navigate the workplace, yeah, I'll just not say anything. | ||
And then the principal called me and he was like, dude, this is not going to work. | ||
Not saying anything like everybody. | ||
So what did they want you? | ||
What did they want you to say after? | ||
I mean, I assume the principal was pleased with your methods, right? | ||
They're probably watching this one because this is a big one. | ||
So they'll probably see. | ||
I was very, the principle that I do, I was impressed by his, yeah, he was, he was down to earth on it. | ||
And then the following day, the Pierce Morgan thing happened and they were a bit like, dude, now this is getting like, you got to run this stuff by us. | ||
And I was thinking, There's multiple reasons I didn't in that case because I didn't want to put them in that position, but where they had to make a call, there's some people there, though, that did disagree with it, whether or not it was because they disagreed with take on JK Rowling, which you could make an argument. | ||
I didn't even present an opinion, though, but. | ||
Right, or they would have there then there's the next category are co-workers that thought the actual exercise by even sharing it was wrong in some form Though I then met with the school's lawyers and the head honcho And I was really appreciative of their objectivity because they made it very plain and clear in the way that the law is written There was no rules actually broken right the student didn't appear on screen and I So, yeah, given the fact that there were no rules broken, you know, things came out well with it. | ||
So you're, you're a teacher up in Massachusetts, obviously a blue state from the stuff we cover, certainly in the Boston area, it sounds a little wacky. | ||
There's a lot of crazy stuff happening at Harvard and MIT and places like that. | ||
Um, can you give me a sense of what sort of the, the teaching landscape is like up there or what, or maybe I suppose at this point, what you're hearing from teachers all across the nation, cause I'm, I'm sure you heard from tons and tons of teachers really admiring what happened there, but how, how stark the differences between say what you did right there and generally what seems to be happening in schools. | ||
I do teach part-time at Emerson College. | ||
So that's public. | ||
So people, when I did get some pushback, people started tagging Emerson College on Twitter and all that. | ||
The school, the lawyers asked me to keep that private and the identity of the student private. | ||
So speaking as someone who has a foot in both landscapes, the higher ed as well as being a high school full-time teacher, I see a stark difference between the college level. | ||
There's definitely more concerning, especially in Massachusetts, that Emerson College isn't extremely thinking in a singular way. | ||
They have, you know, anonymous bias reporting, the Office of Diversity and Inclusion, and there's been some... It was events at Emerson College that I actually witnessed for myself that caused me to start questioning things, and that's what led me To stumble when I did stumble upon your content and other people like yourself caused me to then wow this is actually pretty insightful and once you start once you learn something you can't unlearn it once you realize there's more complexity. | ||
I am concerned about the higher I think it's going to. | ||
It's going to have to correct itself or it will implode. | ||
It feels a bit like a bubble where the product is losing value, the product of a higher education, and yet tuition is increasing. | ||
So they're going to have to correct course or they'll implode. | ||
High school level, there's a bit more objectivity, thank goodness, because you have the parents who will get involved if necessary a bit more, but there's definitely certainly problems. | ||
We've been hearing that in the news lately as well. | ||
The recent 60 Minutes interview that happened yesterday or what? | ||
With the Moms of Liberty, yeah. | ||
Yeah, so it's a shame to see things like that, but... | ||
But here we are. | ||
I assume you heard from plenty of teachers across the country who were, who were impressed by what you did as well. | ||
Yeah. | ||
Oh, the feedback was very positive in general. | ||
So I'm very grateful for that. | ||
Definitely. | ||
And yeah, they, they've wanted to just kind of express concern and I'm trying to figure out the best way to share their perspectives and incorporate that into what I'm trying to figure out what to do. | ||
And cause yeah, but I've received a lot of messages. | ||
How do you feel now that you're controversial? | ||
You strike me as very, uh, into it. | ||
I'm being sarcastic. | ||
How do I feel? | ||
unidentified
|
I mean, you would probably understand this. | |
Something kind of remarkable occurs. | ||
When you step out onto that high wire, because there's the ever-present danger that's not going to go away of falling when you do. | ||
But when we make the voluntary decision to do so, and we have our reasons, and we do it despite of the risk of falling, something occurs that's pretty remarkable where the journey itself Makes you feel more alive than ever in a way that's difficult to articulate to those who have only remained on the ground. | ||
I've been trying to explain, think about how to articulate that feeling, but that's, that's basically how I would do it. | ||
Yeah. | ||
Well, now that you have experienced that feeling and you've sort of leveled up on the profile side, I mean, are there new things that you want to do to get your voice out there to continue that moment and figure out new ways to reach young people that are ready for that? | ||
Because I think so many of them are. | ||
Yeah, I would love to, because now I'm not able to really film in the classroom because the school naturally, they were like, Whoa, we, this could have gone the other way. | ||
We're glad that it went this way, but you would have to run everything by us. | ||
So I would really love, I mean, it sounds so presumptuous to even dream, but if you were to be like, here, I'll hand you a golden ticket and you can do, because I'm really amazed with what Jordan Peterson's doing with his university, and I would love to be able to teach with a camera present, because then you can take what you do in the classroom and potentially reach a large group of people, which is why I was inspired by that initially. | ||
So it does feel a bit frustrating now not to be able to do that and I feel like this is a really cool opportunity and I wish I could lean into that. | ||
So I'm trying to figure out how to do it outside of the classroom, in my house, building a little studio, trying to find people who are willing to speak and just trying to make the most of it. | ||
But as a filmmaker, I'm blown away with what The Daily Wire is doing with filmmaking and trying to take on Hollywood. | ||
So it would be, if I could do anything, if you were to hand me that magic ticket, obviously, yeah, I would. | ||
But that sounds so presumptuous. | ||
If only you knew a guy who knew Jordan Peterson and the people over at the Daily Wire. | ||
I'm going to go through my Rolodex. | ||
We'll see what we can find out. | ||
Uh I will gladly connect you with the folks over there because I think what you did was just it's just a perfect moment you know we think that these moments of breaking through to people can only happen when the punditry class does it or because of some celebrity or something like that and I think the real reason your moment broke through it's partly because of just you can just see the the calmness and masterful way that you speak about this, | ||
or careful way that you speak about this, but also because it was real and genuine and not intended, | ||
and that's a really beautiful thing. | ||
Where can people find you in the meantime, before you're a big star over at The Daily Wall? | ||
On YouTube, Warren Smith, Secret Scholar Society. | ||
And Twitter, WTSmith17. | ||
It's such a bad Twitter handle. | ||
I hadn't used Twitter in four years before this happened. | ||
Branding, Warren! | ||
You've got to get the branding right. | ||
That's the next lesson. | ||
I will teach you that lesson at some other time. | ||
Well, I really appreciate your time, and I appreciate what you're doing. | ||
And let me see how I can help you on that stuff. | ||
Thank you, Dave. | ||
I can't tell you what an honor this is. | ||
Like, if people were to ask, say, you could meet anyone you want in the world, it wouldn't be Hollywood celebrities. | ||
It would be people like you in this space, because you actually stand for something. | ||
So thank you so much for this opportunity. | ||
Right back at you. | ||
Thanks, man. | ||
If you're looking for smarter conversations about academia, check out our Academia playlist. | ||
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