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June 3, 2020 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin
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Is Your Phone Addiction Ruining Your Life? Watch This | Peter Boghossian | TECH | Rubin Report
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dave rubin
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peter boghossian
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peter boghossian
Let's take a step back.
So the reason that we do that is so we can have more authentic relationships and not be looking at our phone, like you said, when you're at a restaurant, when they open that back up.
I love that idea.
You know, everybody stacks their phone and the first person to look at it pays the bill.
That's fantastic.
dave rubin
You're paying the bill.
Yeah.
unidentified
Yeah.
peter boghossian
We need to get back to these face-to-face, to actually listening to people and hearing
them and being heard.
Hi, my name is Peter Boghossian from the Don't Burn This Book Club with Dave Rubin and this
is Chapter 10, Move On With Your Life, and it is a genuine pleasure to do this.
I love the book.
I love Chapter 10, and I'm just going to jump right in, Dave, and I'm going to ask you some questions.
So, first, in your opinion, one of the things that you said in the book that's been tormenting me since I wrote it was how you put away your devices and you get off the grid.
unidentified
Tell me, how did you, how do you do that?
peter boghossian
I mean, like even my phone, I even use as an alarm to wake me up.
I don't have an alarm clock.
I look at the time.
How do you do that?
You also mentioned, you know, don't, don't put your phone in your, in your room because the bedroom isn't for that.
How do you get started with that?
dave rubin
Yeah.
So first off, I just want to say thank you for doing this, Pete.
And you were, when we looked at the 10 people that I wanted to hit these 10 chapters, I knew that you were the guy I wanted to do chapter 10 with because I think our friendship and I think the things that you've tried to put out into the world for whatever our minor political disagreements might be, you want to live in the same place that I want to live in and you've stood up to the mob in so many ways.
For those that don't know, you're up in Portland, that's not an easy place for a Anti-social justice warrior free thinker to be so you've been in the thick of it.
So to answer your question specifically Well, look first off, you know I lay out a couple tips and tricks you can do to get rid of the phone because you know right now Although I wrote this obviously before coronavirus It's like we were all obsessed with the digital life and big tech was already in control of so much of our information before Corona and now we're in lockdown and And, you know, it looks like in certain states, probably our two states, we're going to be in this thing for quite some time.
Big tech and Twitter and YouTube and videos and information, it has more of a hold on us right now than it had two months ago when it already had too much control of us.
So I do lay out a couple of tips.
I mean, one thing.
You know, you might have to get an alarm cockpit.
I know it feels very old school, but like, yeah, we all use our phone now as the alarm.
So that means you probably bring it into your bedroom.
But one of the things that I've found, we all do, but one of the things that I've found is if you bring that thing into your bedroom, it will be the last thing you look at at night.
And it will be the first thing that you look at in the morning.
And for guys like us, especially, It is not good to start your day and open up Twitter and have an anime pink fox tell you that you're Hitler in essence.
That's not what you should be seeing before you go to bed.
So I do believe that the bedroom, we don't have a television in our bedroom either.
I believe that the bedroom is basically for sex and sleeping.
You could probably add a couple other little things in there.
You can read, read a book in bed, that's good, or on your Kindle, but I think Figuring out the little moments to detach from all of this is just super important.
peter boghossian
Right.
And so let's take a step back.
So the reason that we do that is so we can have more authentic relationships and not be looking at our phone like you said when you're at a restaurant when they open that back up.
I love that idea.
You know, everybody stacks their phone and the first person to look at it.
Pays the bill.
That's fantastic.
dave rubin
You're paying the bill.
Yeah.
peter boghossian
Yeah, we need to get back to these face-to-face to actually listening to people and hearing them and being heard My problem though is like so I I'm trying to walk 12,500 steps a day and I was thinking well, geez, I'll leave my phone But if I left my phone, I wouldn't listen to your podcast or podcast or music Do you know what I'm saying?
It's like they're all the phone is so integrated into our lives but yet And you're right, you mentioned in the book that it's an addiction.
I think we all have a low grade or some people have a high grade addiction.
What advice can you give people to really bracket technology in their lives?
Like you've gone off the grid for weeks.
What advice, we know why you should do it to re-inject the humanism in our relationships.
How do you get started with that?
I can't, because I'm trying to figure that out.
I don't know how to do it.
dave rubin
I think the first thing is realize that we don't have to be endlessly entertained or amused.
So you're a dog guy.
You've got a couple of dogs.
One of the things that I do, Clyde sitting right here right now, when I take him out for a walk, I do not take my phone.
So yes, that means I am not listening to a podcast.
I have a lot of friends who are podcasters.
There's podcasts that I enjoy, but I'm not listening to a podcast.
I'm not looking at my phone.
I'm not waiting for emails to roll in.
We take a walk.
It's so funny because that sounds like a unique thing.
My God, you walk your dog with no device.
It sounds like some sort of crazy thing.
That is how we all lived a mere 20 years ago.
Let's not forget.
I got my first cell phone.
It was a little Nokia.
One of those little bars that all you could do was play Snake.
I got that thing in 2000.
That's when I got my first phone, only 20 years ago.
So part of the issue related to tech and why we all sort of feel crazy all the time, and you know, sometimes you're on your phone and your wife or your husband, whatever it is, is literally talking to you and you hear them talking, but you don't respond.
And we're all guilty of this.
And you go, what?
Could you repeat that?
And it's like, man, that's what people do when they're 80 and 90.
And I think it's done all sorts of stuff to rewire us, to short out our attention span, and all of these things.
So I think partly, I think the first step is just realizing that just because we have this stuff doesn't mean we should need it all the time.
Now I say that as someone, I admit this in chapter 10, I have a terrible sense of direction.
So when I went off the grid in August, well I still do have GPS in my car, so I did, it's not that I had no screen whatsoever, But even on the news front, you know, it's like, I've taken these last three Augusts where I do no news.
And guess what?
You don't miss much.
Now, August is a little down anyway.
The year before last, I believe it was when John McCain died.
I didn't hear about that.
There was like three weeks of hearing about Michael Cohen testimony against Trump.
It's like you realize that these things are actually, we feel like they're so important on any given moment.
And then you realize it doesn't really matter.
And that's why I start the chapter with the story about the Australian woman.
peter boghossian
I was just going to say that.
dave rubin
Yeah.
peter boghossian
Yeah.
You started the chapter with something that we've all heard about.
Hospice stay and what people value toward the end of their lives and what gives their lives meaning.
And I wanna know, so when you do go off the grid and when you don't talk to people and you have your device, do you feel that you gain more meaning?
unidentified
Yes.
peter boghossian
And you feel more closely connected?
Yeah.
dave rubin
Yes, I feel more patient, I feel more calm.
I know, you know, I'm pretty friendly and fairly outgoing in general, but I know that when I'm at a store, I'm friendlier with the cashier.
You know, like normally you could go to a cashier.
You're on Twitter the whole time.
You don't even look.
In some ways you don't even realize it's a human.
But when you go there without a phone, oh, hi, how are you?
Nice to see you again.
How's your day going?
And then people start looking at you.
unidentified
Right.
peter boghossian
And so let me ask you a question.
So then for you, in your life, the thing that gives the most meaning, is that Is that your interactions with people, like your relationships with people, like your relationships with your husband and your friends?
Is that ultimately, to you, what it's about?
dave rubin
You know, I think ultimately that is what it's about.
I've had a lot of time, just like everybody else, to think about my life while we're in quarantine here, and one of the things that I've been thinking about is I'm very satisfied and I would say blessed and lucky that I live in the house that I want to live in.
I don't really want any physical things.
We don't have a ton of stuff, but we share one car.
It's a nice car, but I don't want more cars.
There really aren't physical things that I want.
Now, that's not to say I don't want to be more successful.
continue to enrich my mind and continue to have an influence in all of the things that we do.
But my relationship with my partner is pretty great.
I've been working harder, even through writing this, I think it's made me a better person.
So I've been working harder at some of the interpersonal family stuff and that kind of thing.
And I think a lot of people are feeling this right now, you know, in the midst of quarantine, it hit me the other day, like, it'll be really nice when I can like see my parents again and hug them.
just literally hug them. We FaceTime all the time, but just to hug them. I know you've lost your dad
in the last few years. It's like we all forget that this is just temporary, and we're so caught
up in nonsense that that's why I started the chapter like that, talking about this woman
taking care of these hospice patients, because nobody said I wanted to be at work more.
Nobody said, I wish I had paid more attention to politics.
Nobody said, oh, I should have been fighting with my neighbor more.
Every single person said, I should have followed my passion more.
I should have done what I wanted to do.
I should have followed that love that I let get away.
And all those things.
And it's like, we know this.
This is not rocket science.
We know it.
peter boghossian
So let me ask you a question.
You know, one of the things that the theme that emerges is let friends be wrong.
And you have friends, people you have significant political disagreements with, and they're still your friends.
And for some people, that idea is just like a toxin.
Like they just, they're just incredulous.
My guess is with folks who are younger.
How do you navigate those differences with your friends if they have different, because you're a political guy and you think about this stuff, how do you navigate those differences with your friends, people who have substantive, maybe, I guess, How do you do that, and are there beliefs that people have that would be a deal-breaker for you in your relationships?
dave rubin
You know, there's a guy that I know that wrote a book.
I have it right over here.
It's called How to Have Impossible Conversations.
It's a pretty good read, and you're somebody that's been trying to do this, and you go to public places sometimes, and you welcome people to argue with you and counterpoint with you and all that.
I actually don't think that our position on this, to agree to disagree, is really against what most people believe.
I think the people that don't believe it right now, or let's say the people who are so angry all the time and try to de-platform us, I mean, we've done events together where we had protesters calling us Nazis and try to shut down the event and call fire alarms and the whole thing.
I don't think they really believe it.
I think they're scared, and I also think that their set of ideas is so conflicting and so compounding.
And I always say this, in many ways it's anti-human.
This idea of social justice and this idea of grouping people, it's anti-human because what's human is to be an individual, right?
You're Peter Boghossian who should be judged on your ideas and actions and thoughts.
You're not just, oh, middle-aged white guy must think this.
And I think what happens, why so many of them go crazy, is because once you take a set of ideas and apply it to yourself that is actually against you.
It's against you as a person, as an individual.
You start getting more hysterical.
So what I try to do, and it is why I started doing the off-the-grid thing, and why I try not to tweet on the weekends, which I haven't done that well during coronavirus, because the week and the weekend have blended into one endless thing.
But the reason that I try to do it is we shouldn't always be doing this thing.
It's why I only do one or two shows a week, by the way.
People always say to me, Dave, why don't you do five interviews a week?
Now I know we could do more and I'd make more money and we could do all that kind of stuff.
And it's not for a lack of working.
I bust my ass every second of the day.
It's because I don't wanna keep hitting people with this stuff.
It's like if you give me an hour of your week, if I have one solid interview with whoever it might be,
and you give me an hour of your week, well then I assume you might have given Sam Harris
some time in your week, you might have given Joe Rogan
in some time in your week, the litany of other people, and not just politics, and whatever you do.
And it's like, I want people to do all those other things.
Care about the world, but care about yourself first.
I think that really is the message.
peter boghossian
And that makes you less attentive to the people you have if you're cramming in more people, right?
So it makes those interactions, I would think, you'd be less present for them, is that right?
dave rubin
Well, absolutely.
And you know, the other thing here, and I think this is probably a very Jordan Peterson notion, and I know that since you read the book you know chapter 9 and the way that Jordan has affected me, But, you know, a lot of times I'll see, because we all get so much hate online and it's just devolved into something that it wasn't supposed to be, you know, it was supposed to be social media.
Make us social and we're social creatures.
And we all thought it was going to build something amazing.
And not to say it hasn't.
Look at our lives, how they've been enriched.
We know each other because of this thing.
My show, I mean, I'm not denying that it's been good, but I would say social media and the internet, you know, it's like fire.
Fire can cook.
And it can warm you up and it can also burn the house down and kill the family.
So, you know, it's sort of like that.
But one of the things that I see, which is why I think getting out of this thing is important, is that all the people that are sort of the endless haters, all the anonymous accounts and the people that just want to destroy all the time and silence everybody.
It's like, you know, if you guys would just clean your room, that's what Jordan's message was, meaning I would guarantee you that most of the people that spend all day long sowing chaos across the internet
It's because whatever their internal stuff is, and we've all had it, right?
We've all had it, we all have it.
But if you don't solve your internal stuff, you will send the world into chaos.
And that's why I think his message really resonated with so many people, because it was like, set some order in your life, and then you might set some order in the world.
And I think partly not being obsessed with the online adventure and understanding that we're organic creatures in a real world, I think that's part of how you do it.
peter boghossian
Let me ask you two finishing questions about the process of writing the book.
What did you learn from the process of writing this book?
Because I know people are out there listening like, geez, I'd like to write a book.
I mean, what have you learned from this?
dave rubin
I love that you're asking me that.
Well, first off, if you're thinking about writing a book, just start doing it.
I know it sounds simple.
It's like, what kind of advice is that?
It's like, I want to write a book.
Yeah, start doing it.
Okay, no shit.
Really just like sit down and sit at that computer and pump out a couple things that you think are important and then see if you can just make them into even essays, whatever they are.
You know, everyone has a different process.
You were one of the people that I called every now and again to kind of work through an issue as they were coming.
What I realized for me is my process, I would get up in the morning.
Emma, our previous dog, was still alive, but she was in her last days.
I would get her out to pee.
She'd come into the room with me and she'd lay there and I'd have my coffee and then I would go and it would be at about 7 a.m.
usually and I could go sometimes to like 2 p.m.
without stopping, sometimes forgetting to eat.
I've been telling people, David would literally open up the door, slide a sandwich in on a plate
as if I was in maximum security prison, and sometimes I wouldn't even eat that.
I could go and go and go, and then when I hit the wall, I was done.
I would not start again at five o'clock.
If I would go, but everyone's process is different.
Some writers, I'm sure yours is different.
peter boghossian
Do it is your main piece of advice.
Just sit down and do it.
Allocate certain time.
dave rubin
Whatever your way is.
Right, I'm not here to tell you, oh, you have to do it.
I'm not here to tell you you have to do it my way.
I'm sure your way, Pete, of writing is different than mine.
Maybe you picked it up a couple times during the day.
Maybe you'd have a week where you wrote hardcore and then you'd take a week off, whatever that might be.
You have to do what works in your brain, what works in your rhythm with the world.
But what I really did love about it that I didn't know is the discipline of doing it.
It forced me to think through my issues better, to really understand why I thought the things.
And I gotta tell you, man, When the box arrived, and you see this thing, you see this physical thing, and you're like, it's pretty amazing.
I did that, and then as you know, Clyde literally ate the box of the first copy, and the first copy of my book is eaten by the dog, so here we are.
peter boghossian
That's not a referendum on the book, though.
Did you, is there anything that you became, that you changed your mind about when you wrote the book?
Or is there anything that you, and I'm asking these questions because this is, we're doing chapter 10 and it's the conclusion of the book.
Is there anything that you became more convinced of through the process of thinking about it and writing the book?
dave rubin
Gosh, you know, the chapter, let me see, you know, truly, The key to this was really making sure that what I say and what I've been preaching on the show and on Twitter and everywhere else is really what I believe.
That really was the key to the whole thing.
I did find myself challenging some of my thoughts.
The hardest one for me to write, in many ways, was the abortion chapter, or the section on abortion.
Because, you know, I think you're probably feeling a certain version of this, too.
As the left has gone so off the deep end on the pro-choice side, meaning eight-month abortions, let's talk about post-birth abortions, I mean, just sort of all sorts of stuff.
And you're pro-choice, right?
peter boghossian
Yes.
dave rubin
Yeah.
So, but as sort of, let's say, our team or our old team, whatever you want to call that, as they've sort of lost any sense of what would be moderate And by the way, when I interviewed several of the
candidates, the more moderate candidates, Tulsi Gabbard, Andrew Yang,
when I asked them about abortion, they really wouldn't say the,
well, Yang particularly wouldn't give me a cutoff point.
Tulsi sort of said the first trimester thing, which I think is fair,
and that's the position I lay out in the book.
And by the way, I make a point of saying I do believe it's a life,
but we have to have some parameters to have all sorts of people
with all sorts of thoughts in the world, in the country to have some sort of cohesive society.
So I really had to challenge myself through that one, and as you know, we're in the process of surrogacy now, so we're looking at egg donors, and we were getting our surrogate and all that, so it's like I was intimately involved.
I mean, I'm literally going to the clinic to donate sperm, and they're talking to us about how they're gonna take that and put it with the egg and then put it in the surrogate and all these things.
I was literally going through that as I was writing it, and I would liken that to When people ask me about my libertarian economic beliefs, and low government, little government, or small government, I should say, and low taxes and things like that, it's like, those ideas, they were first ideas for me.
But then, as you know, I've built a really nice small business here, and I've been able to treat my employees well, and I love that, and my guys work hard for me, and we try to take care of them, and I know that if I live in one of the highest taxed, most regulated States in the country, if not the highest on both fronts.
And I know that if the government would actually cut my taxes, I could pay my guys more or hire more people.
So I think really the rubber met the road, I think, as I wrote this.
I started going, whoa, these issues that I talk about, they're not just things I talk about.
Now Clyde's freaking out.
They're not just things that I talk about.
They're actually ideas that I've put into place in my own life.
And I'm very proud of that.
peter boghossian
Oh, good.
Good.
unidentified
Well, speaking of dogs, you know, we adopted a dog, too.
peter boghossian
She's right here and barking.
So, excuse me if you can hear her.
So, what is the thing?
We're coming up to the end of our 20 minutes.
I think we're a little… Yeah.
dave rubin
There she is.
She's in on it, too.
Boy.
unidentified
Here, hold on a second.
Come here.
dave rubin
Mostly people just, yeah, what a beauty, what a beauty, and you got her because of the lockdown.
I love that, I love that.
peter boghossian
Yeah, we got her for my daughter.
The day that we got her, just parenthetically, the day that we got her, literally the day, Dave, she became sick and had to go to the ICU, and it cost us $1,000 a day for seven days, but she's great.
She's been a joy, and she's part of the family.
She's wonderful.
Okay, so chapter 10, I love the advice about the devices.
I love the advice about thinking back about regrets and what is the most meaningful things in our lives.
And I'm going to try to do that.
I think I will get an alarm clock.
I was going to ask you about that.
And I think I will be, because I noticed that when I have my devices, I'm less present, even like at the dog park or walking the dog, or I do think it takes something meaningful out of those relationships.
And, um, It makes you less mindful in the moment as well.
So I think that there are some things that we can all benefit from.
And I also like the, I want to reiterate if people are thinking about writing a book, I think your advice is fantastic.
You just have to do it.
Perfection is the enemy of done.
Don't get caught up in this stuff.
Just sit down and I'll add to what you said by telling people in your life, I'm committed to this.
I'm going to write a book.
So like you had to support your husband who slid the, You know, food to you, and so I think if you tell people in your life, like, I want to write a book, this means something to me.
And then I like the idea that when you said that you thought about and reflected on, like, abortion or things in your life that when you write often it can help clarify or crystallize things.
What do you want to leave people with after they read, again, excuse me, after this question because it's chapter 10, people read this, what do you want to leave them with?
dave rubin
What I truly want to leave them with, and I try to say this at the end, and it was exactly why I had the length that I had and everything else, is that I wanted people to be able to read this thing in a couple days.
I wanted them to start thinking about the issues that I talk about.
I wanted to give them some tricks and tips to stand up to the mob.
I wanted them to be brave enough to Fight for what they believe in.
You don't have to agree with me.
I know a lot of conservatives are not gonna agree with me on abortion.
We know that.
And that's okay, by the way.
And by the way, I'm getting a ton of email right now from conservatives who are saying, Dave, I love the book, love everything in it, but you're wrong on abortion, and we'll get you one day.
But they do it kindly and nicely, and that's a beautiful thing.
But what I want more than anything else is for someone that reads this book, if it hits you in any way, I know that means that there's someone in your life that you should hand this thing to.
And if you hand it to them with some grace and not club them over the head with it, but just say, you know, this was sort of interesting.
The guy kind of agrees with you on this, this, this and this, but you might not agree with this.
They might read it.
And then maybe, maybe, We can start fixing this thing, and I think we're already doing it, but our work is cut out for us.
peter boghossian
Yeah, you know, when I opened the book—thank you, your remarks were totally lovely—excuse me, when I opened the book and I saw that it was devoted to Ben Affleck, I just lost it.
I couldn't stop laughing.
And I want to bookmark that with the last thing that you wrote, the last line, because I think it's so true.
The book started humorously, it made me laugh, and it just made me think through the whole way, and it's just such a clear, it's just so clear.
The last thing you write, the last sentence is, thinking for yourself is all you need in an age of unreason.
I mean, that is so true and so profound at the same time, but yet it's so difficult for all of us, right?
dave rubin
To think for ourselves.
peter boghossian
Right, to be honest with ourselves, to be sincere with other people, to be forthright in our speech, to say what we mean, and like what you say, to make sure that what you say on the show and the book and you live what you do, it's that idea that you judge a person, we ought to be judged at least by what we say against what we do, and I think that there's something, there's a timeless message in that, of thinking, every age that we have has some We all are like myopic, right?
We all think that some value, the values that we have now are, you know, universal, timeless values.
But the key is, you said it in the book, it's the theme throughout the whole book, it's thinking for yourself and what that means and how to be honest with yourself, right?
dave rubin
I mean, that's it, my friend.
That was why, as every other author in the history of the world, I wrote the final sentence about 80 times.
Change, you know, it was like the same idea 80 times over.
And I was like, this is it.
No, this is it.
Could this be funny or no, it's a little too serious.
Emphasis on this word.
But that's what that was the takeaway.
The takeaway was you don't have to buy everything that I'm selling.
Figure it out for yourself.
And that's it.
peter boghossian
Figure it out for yourself.
And if someone comes to a different conclusion, that's OK, too.
That's that's the beginning of the conversation.
dave rubin
That's it, my friend.
peter boghossian
I can't stress it enough.
Truly fantastic, and it's an honor to be with you and talk to you, Dave.
Thank you so much, and thank you for your friendship and what you do.
Thank you.
dave rubin
Right back at you, brother.
I'll see you soon, hopefully in real life.
Well, eventually in real life, right?
unidentified
Eventually.
dave rubin
Maybe one day, perhaps?
peter boghossian
I'm looking forward to it.
Thanks, Dave.
You're a good man.
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