RadixJournal - Richard Spencer - Triumph of the Will

June 20, 2024 - RadixJournal - Richard Spencer

01:45:09

Triumph of the Will

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit radixjournal.substack.comHappy Juneteenth, everyone!In honor of this auspicious federal holiday, Richard and I have secured two incredible guests for you to hear from. We have the philosophical and psychological insights of the brilliant Raven Connolly who discusses religiosity and its next steps in the cultural zeitgeist with us, among othe…

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	As I was leaving Montana, a new phenomenon hit the world.
	It took everyone by storm, known simply as the Rise of Lily.
	This young lady, she dared to do it.
	She said the unspeakable.
	She uttered broke-ass on a TikTok stream.
	While Lily, the rise of evil, while on a TikTok stream, wearing a sort of apron and trad wife attire, although I'm not sure she's a trad wife exactly.
	I didn't quite know what was going on with her, but I think more has been revealed and confirmed by her.
	I don't want to propagate rumor, but she has confirmed some facts that are worth going into.
	I do think...
	That it's a fascinating phenomenon in the sense that, first off, I would just say that I don't really dislike Lily.
	I mean, I kind of like her in a way.
	She is a salty, you know, foul-mouthed southern chick.
	She's mad about things in the world.
	She's certainly attractive, and she seems kind of fun, like a girl you would want to meet in a bar who would, you know, say wild stuff, and just, you know, next thing you know, it's 5 a.m., and you're being arrested for public nudity and vandalism.
	You know, that kind of girl.
	I kind of like her.
	She seems fun, if not exactly a trad wife.
	And so I don't have anything against her, but she's also by her own, you know, using her own words, she's a normie, as she says.
	She doesn't know anything about this stuff.
	And she's innocent or naive.
	She doesn't really have a political ideology or program.
	And so this...
	This explosion of popularity, this kind of transferring, it's not even 15 minutes of fame, or it might be literally 15 minutes of fame in the sense that people talked about her on X, about they're either outraged or they thought it was based or they just simply thought it was funny.
	To translate that into punditry, I think does reveal quite a bit about the world we're living in.
	It reminds me a lot of the girl on the plane who was also a foul-mouthed southern girl.
	The girl on the plane is from Dallas.
	And she indicated that that motherfucker is not real.
	Whatever that means, we still don't know what she meant by that.
	She seemed a bit drunk or something else was going on.
	You know, she kind of, she's this moment everyone's talking about her.
	She gets memed.
	It's genuinely funny.
	She is also attractive and, you know, has a nice figure.
	So that kind of adds to the fun of the situation.
	And she gets interviewed a few times.
	And then someone says she was micro-dosing on shrooms.
	Well, I don't.
	Did Lily confirm that?
	Who knows?
	She confirmed that.
	She said she was on shrooms.
	She was saying that as a refutation because people were saying she slept with somebody at the event.
	And she's like, no, I didn't sleep with anybody, but I did do some shrooms.
	That was her claim anyway.
	Okay. Yeah.
	It's like...
	It's like one of those weird alibis where you're like, no, I didn't commit the murder.
	I was robbing a bank at the time.
	How could I have admitted this crime?
	Exactly, yeah.
	Kind of funny.
	Kind of mitigate it.
	Oh, it's not that bad.
	I didn't actually sleep with Nico or David Duke or whoever people were saying it.
	Right. I couldn't have slept with...
	What is his name?
	Jake Shields?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Is that his name?
	Yeah. Who's like an MFA guy who's based and outspoken.
	He's like, I couldn't have slept with David Duke.
	I was sleeping with Jake Shields right at that time.
	Stop these salacious rumors about.
	You can't have sex when you're in a transcendental state.
	I mean, on shrooms.
	He was wearing a robe.
	I couldn't really tell who it was.
	I don't know what happened, but that didn't happen.
	Look, I think it's telling of the wider situation, which, a couple of things.
	First off, politics is entertainment.
	And we've talked about this extensively here, where I was joking with Mark Broman last night.
	I was like, can you even name a sitcom on NBC right now?
	Can you name one?
	I can't even name one.
	I'm sure there are sitcoms on NBC, but they're not relevant in the way, and here I'm showing my age a little bit, but they're not relevant in the way that...
	Everyone knew about Cheers, for example, or The Cosby Show, or Family Ties, or Seinfeld into the 90s, etc.
	Even if you didn't watch it, you sort of knew about it and knew about the characters.
	And there was some sort of commonality among the American nation in terms of, you should know about this.
	These characters are sort of archetypes.
	Express something about the world and, you know, we have a common currency that we can talk to each other through television shows.
	As kind of stupid as that sounds, there is a need for some sort of common culture.
	In a technological age, that need is not met by the church and it is met.
	Through technology or the television.
	This still exists to some degree, I think, with sports.
	No longer boxing or baseball, which used to be the big ones.
	It's football.
	You know who's in the Super Bowl.
	You know about Travis Kelsey and Taylor Swift, etc.
	You can talk about it.
	But beyond some examples like that...
	And maybe comic book movies five years ago, there's no common culture.
	We're just in these weird little niches.
	And so punditry or politics has come in to replace entertainment.
	And so there's, you know, like Lily or the Plain Girl are the little Cosby of our time.
	And I'm not...
	Accusing them of rape, when I say that, of course.
	They serve as a core culture for these fragmented communities.
	The other thing that I think is worth saying about Lilly is that there's this desire among conservatives.
	They talk about free speech and all this kind of stuff.
	There's this libido for idiocy, as I guess H.L. Mencken would say.
	There's this notion of a kind of innocent-based person who will just say something wildly stupid, and that means that she's sort of on side.
	Like, free speech isn't about talking about very serious issues.
	Like, are you going to question the existence of God?
	Discuss in a detailed fashion the Israel lobby or, you know, claim that OJ is innocent or whatever issue that is controversial, that's offensive to people.
	It's not really about your ability to do that, your ability to criticize the government, your ability to criticize the state.
	It's your ability to be an idiot.
	And Alex Jones, his free speech rights need to be protected so that he can take his shirt off and scream and claim that, you know, the school shooting didn't happen or,
	you know, call someone a franny-loving, woke lesbian or whatever the hell he wants to do.
	Free speech is this kind of expression of idiotic outrage.
	And that's really what they want.
	And that's really what it means to be based.
	So even the fact that she said broke-ass nigga, so she said the A version of the N word, it's kind of equivocal because it's like, is she quoting rap lyrics?
	Is she kind of ironically referencing Black culture?
	You would certainly hear, you know, B-A-N said many times if you were, you know, hanging out in certain cities or in the South or whatever.
	Is that a kind of natural parlance of this young woman who lives in the South and is probably around, you know, a lot of Black people?
	Or is she...
	Kind of aggressively attacking Black people, which is the, you know, the essence of the N-word with the hard R, the more kind of nasty version.
	Who knows?
	It's equivocal.
	It's all of those things.
	It's many of those things.
	It's all of them combined.
	And so there's this sort of plausible deniability of saying it that kind of makes it even more innocent.
	What did she mean by that?
	We don't know.
	We just know that she's based in one of us because she said that.
	And then this leads to the reaction to the situation, which is, can we trust her?
	Is she a Jewish psyop, in fact?
	Is she the Democratic Party trying to push us in the wrong direction?
	Even though it is all of the griper, the griper is writ large, like just the online community.
	They are the ones promoting this woman.
	They are the ones obsessing about her, you know, etc.
	And then they're also the ones who are claiming that she is, like, was in a lab in Israel and sent to us by Netanyahu to, like, rip up America first.
	It just, it's like, and it's all, even that conspiracy theory, as I would say, is...
	Unlikely as it is, it kind of like all folds into one thing.
	So anyway, those are my thoughts on Lily, who again, just personally speaking, I don't really have any problem with, but as a phenomenon is just idiotic and bizarre.
	But what do you guys think about Lily?
	Do you have anything to add here that she's accused of?
	She's a single mom, apparently.
	I think she has confirmed that.
	She's accused of having a mixed child.
	I don't know if that's true.
	I think she has denied that, but is it true?
	I don't know.
	What do you guys think about the situation?
	Or Raven, you could jump in.
	I don't know if you've been paying attention to.
	Yeah, no, definitely.
	And I didn't realize what her name was, but yeah, this actually did come into my field, this woman.
	And, you know, I did get a laugh out of it.
	Like, I got a laugh out of her video.
	And I also got a laugh out of the reaction.
	I do think what you're pointing out is super interesting, like, this phenomenon.
	Obviously, I think politics as entertainment is...
	Definitely the right frame to have.
	I mean, politics has gone cynical and it's not a place where you find truth or, you know, it's a very cynical game that's being played.
	And we also are totally seeing it as a reality TV show.
	Yeah. This woman, though, I think your assessment seems quite...
	On point in the sense that maybe she even is naive.
	My guess is that she probably is naive to the deep well of politics and conspiracy theories and internal politics of online subcultures.
	There's so many things going on.
	Internal feuds and paranoia across these networks that I can imagine shooting into a position of fame immediately is just putting her into a situation that she was not expecting.
	Yeah, and it's funny because you mentioned reality television.
	You know, maybe it was the age of the 1950s through the 90s that was the age of the sitcom.
	And I think earlier than that, it was also the age of the game show, which is maybe something that's totally lost to us, but was really important.
	You know, quiz show or to tell the truth.
	These things were like really resonant in America in the 1950s and into the 60s and much less so now.
	We still have like Wheel of Fortune or Jeopardy, I guess.
	But it was like the age of the sitcom, the family sitcom, where there's a giant living room and a family and kind of colorful characters and the neighbors.
	It resonated.
	It was relatable.
	And it kind of implied or assumed a kind of family values.
	I mean, there were some sitcoms about divorce, but it kind of assumed a loving environment and normalcy and middle-classness and so on.
	Maybe Seinfeld less so.
	Those were kind of like single people.
	Even Cheers was kind of...
	Anyway, I won't go into that, but that was kind of the age of the sitcom.
	And then in the 2000s, we slowly entered the age of reality television.
	And I think there was one thing that kind of catalyzed it, if it didn't cause it, was the writer's strike.
	And so these writers went on strike and they're like, okay, well...
	You can fuck off.
	And we're just going to film regular people and edit it up and so on.
	But reality television was most popular when it was wildly dysfunctional and toxic.
	And so we kind of entered this new world where we figured out that normal people could be more entertaining and outrageous than A crafted script where,
	you know, there were kind of two storylines going on at the time and there was a kind of turning point and conflict and resolution.
	And we just went to just like full on, you know, tequila, tequila at a pool, dating multiple men or, you know, a survivor.
	Backstabbing or just like, you know, Teen Mom on MTV or just these like horrible shows.
	And it's almost like now reality television has entered the real world.
	It's like we're in a new stage where it's about, you know, it's sort of that type of behavior like in real life.
	That we're interacting with and participating with through social media.
	I'm trying to kind of like be like a bigger picture, but I think that's definitely where we are because I don't think even reality television is as relevant as it was say 15 years ago, but now it's now there's something.
	Like, new that's occurred and that's dominating the media landscape.
	And it's like social media figures getting canceled and dropping N-bombs or getting drugged out of their mind on planes and claiming to see aliens entering this new world of entertainment.
	You know, I don't know.
	I grew up on family ties.
	I would go on Thursday, we would order it.
	Domino's Pizza and watch The Cosby Show and Family Ties.
	That was kind of my childhood.
	I think the childhood for Zoomer is radically different.
	Yeah, they're watching like AI-generated videos on YouTube.
	Yeah. While their parents are scrolling on their phones.
	Yeah. Yeah.
	I mean, I think what you're pointing to is this.
	And you're talking about media.
	Well, it's like media is now mediating so much of our social life.
	And that was just not the case when you were a child.
	There was still a frame around receiving entertainment.
	It was on the television.
	So there was this barrier between your life and then the fantasy world of the screen.
	But the fantasy world of the screen is now integrated into Daily activity and what we believe in the signaling mechanisms that we're using and how we're gaining social status and the culture games that we're playing.
	And now it includes not just like, you know, a small group of people who are localized, but a distributed network of people that exist in these kind of mimetic clouds as these, you know, compressed representations of memes, particularly on something like Twitter,
	right? It's just...
	Yeah. And you know more about them.
	The griper knows more about Lily than he knows about the girl in his social studies class or his neighbor.
	He's in a way like...
	By all measurements, more of a friend with Lily.
	He knows her personal struggles.
	He knows about her child.
	He knows where she was last weekend.
	He's more connected with Lily, the meme, who's an actual person, than he is with the girl down the street.
	And that also is hugely remarkable.
	It is a new way of being.
	People did kind of identify with, I guess, the family you saw on a sitcom, but not to this extent.
	I mean, you did sort of know Alex P. Keaton or whatever, but not like this.
	And you certainly couldn't interact with him.
	It was a fantasy world, but this is a real fantasy world.
	I think totally.
	I think that's a crucial point because when you're watching a show, you know, there's this repetition, right?
	And you don't get to interact with the people on the screen.
	You can watch the same episodes over and over and over again, but you can't change the story.
	Whereas in the world that we're looking at today, you can actually reach out to try and contact, you know, a person that you've become obsessed with and actually change their story and become part of it.
	And cancel her.
	Yeah, you can try.
	Yeah. Exactly.
	Yeah. You can just, you can fall in love and then, you know, claim that she has a mixed child and destroy her fame.
	Like, yeah, it's remarkable.
	I don't know.
	I don't know what to make of this.
	I can't imagine.
	Lily blasting, but it is remarkable because I was just seeing all this stuff last night.
	She's gone on the blaze.
	She went on Infowars within 24 hours of saying B-A-N.
	They just had to have her on Infowars.
	She's now gone on to more mainstream conservative shows.
	It's just incredible.
	Their libido for something that's innocent is what it is.
	They want that...
	The fact that she claims to be a normie or she doesn't know what she's talking about, that's the charm of it.
	We want this unadulterated, pure, loud mouth.
	That makes her real and important and someone you need to listen to.
	Yeah. Remarkable.
	Yeah, there seems to be a taste for that.
	I would just say, like, there seems to be a taste for that in some segment of the right, for attraction to kind of normal people, or, you know, this kind of populist side really enjoys that reflection, because a lot of those people are also quite normal,
	or people come from a normal class, and so...
	Seeing someone who kind of represents you does have this attractive force.
	And then I do think you're right, like this innocence.
	I mean, there's a scarcity of innocence, especially in a place like Twitter.
	You know, it's like a very competitive environment.
	People are dunking on each other at the time or playing social games.
	And that type of innocence walks in and certainly there's going to be...
	Especially because she's speaking to something in the zeitgeist as well.
	And I think that's one of the ways that social media operates is people who become main character are often speaking something that's actually a cultural tension.
	And they actually expose that tension in some way.
	And then because people are feeling it, they just immediately start retweeting or liking or just amping up that voice.
	And goes viral, right?
	We'll see where she goes, right?
	Because, I mean, handling that level of attention so quickly and walking into these environments being as naive as she appears to be, see how she handles it.
	We'll see.
	Definitely. I'm not trying to bash her, but it's hard to imagine she's not a one-hit wonder.
	I mean, how many times can you say the N-word?
	Totally. You know, before it gets a bit old.
	But we shall see.
	So she went to AFPAC.
	So AFPAC had its...
	I guess it's an annual event.
	I think they're going to do another one.
	I think this is all interesting as well.
	I presume she was invited.
	And she might have wanted to jump on this thing.
	I actually went into a space where she was participating, and it was all of these guys.
	And I asked her that.
	I was kind of like,"Look, do you want to be a pundit?" And she kind of gave an answer like,"Well, there's nothing else I can do now." Because I've been canceled and I got fired from my job and so on.
	So I don't know.
	I don't think that's a good career move, to be honest.
	But I think it's going to be very hard for her.
	But she immediately went to ACPAC and we can watch some clips of these things.
	And we actually have someone, Jordan B., who attended ACPAC.
	So I would definitely like your...
	You know, lay of the land of what was going on.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Yeah, good.
	You're here.
	Good. Let me set it up.
	You know, first off, so AFPAC is a sort of, you know, contra conference to TPUSA.
	And I think this in itself is very interesting.
	So TPUSA is Charlie Kirk's group.
	It has been wildly successful.
	I mean, I don't know if there's a conservative event that is more successful than TPUSA.
	CPAC used to be the thing for decades, in fact.
	I went to a number of CPACs over my career, and they were all kind of funny to experience.
	It probably has changed a bit.
	I remember going to one, this was probably in like 2012 or something, and there was all these young girls who were dressed up almost like Jackie Kennedy.
	They were all professional, but then also feminine and alluring.
	I don't know, maybe some of them were searching for a husband, some of them were searching for a job.
	To become a chief of staff to a congressman or maybe do other duties for him.
	It was an interesting scene.
	I think it probably has changed a bit.
	I think CPAC is declining.
	And TPUSA, they kind of, I think the secret to his success, Charlie Kirk's that is, is that they just kind of like went for the jugular.
	Offered an unadulterated version of CPAC.
	So, you know, why even pretend that this is a conference about policy?
	Why not just have an event where Ted Cruz enters the stage or Tucker Carlson or Lauren Boebert and you have, like, dubstep music and fireworks?
	You know, it's like, Senator from Texas, Ted Cruz!
	And it's like...
	You know, why not just go for it?
	Why pretend that this is some Dale and, you know, fuddy-duddy event?
	Why not just make it wrestling, basically?
	And that's been successful.
	I mean, they'll have girls in, you know, bikinis or high boots, like shootout t-shirt guns.
	I mean, so it's almost like a sports thing or wrestling, I think, is maybe the best analogy.
	And those have been successful.
	And they're orbiting the GOP.
	I mean, TPUSA only makes sense if it is a sort of, you know, it's a planet orbiting the sun of Trump and the GOP, the trumped-up GOP.
	And AFPAC is orbiting TPUSA.
	So it's kind of like a moon on this planet that is Charlie Kirk.
	He has a large head, so I guess this analogy makes sense in a way.
	I find it interesting because, I mean, and this goes back to the Graper's criticism of...
	Charlie Kirk and TPUSA.
	So they did a thing, I think it was 2018, the fall of 2018, when the Graper phenomenon occurred.
	Maybe it was 2019.
	And they would go to these events and they would say something like, you know, there would be like a gay conservative on stage and they would say, you know, how does anal sex help American workers?
	Or they would say some...
	Sort of outrageous question like this.
	And everyone knew what they were really talking about.
	I remember there were Kruipers, you know, with rosary beads in their hands and, you know, declaring that Christ is king and so on.
	And the first reaction, understandably, was hostility.
	And they, you know, Charlie Kirk would bash them.
	He would go after them.
	Dan Crenshaw, I remember, went after them.
	And Don, Donald Trump Jr.'s wife, what is her name?
	Guillefoyle? Guillefoyle?
	Whatever her name is.
	I remember she was like, you're a bunch of losers.
	You don't get any girls.
	You suck.
	Kimberly Gargoyle.
	Kimberly Gargoyle.
	It's Kimberly Gargoyle.
	But Gargoyle is much more apropos.
	Yes. Well, she has done a bit too much Botox or whatever, filler or whatever.
	So she's becoming a bit much.
	So it was outright hostility.
	But then in this weird way, the Groypers won the Groyper War.
	Because, I mean, as we've cataloged on this podcast, Charlie Kirk adopted...
	They're talking points.
	Up to a point, he went hardcore on the COVID and the vaccine in a way that I didn't expect.
	If you would ask me, and I'm sure I actually was asked this, and I said this back in 2018.
	How is Charlie Kirk going to respond?
	Who is Charlie Kirk?
	I would say, look, he's just a neocon stooge.
	He looks like a good Mormon boy or a Bible salesman, and he's just going to be mainstream and so on.
	You shouldn't even try to influence him.
	But the reality is, and I don't think anyone can or should deny this, is that they did influence him tremendously.
	I don't think he would have done...
	He wouldn't have said what he has said without the Gripers.
	And so there gets to a point where you wonder what differentiates AFPAC from TPUSA.
	Now, there are some things, but I think it was actually at CPAC and not TPUSA, but this is a good example, where Michael Knowles went to TPUSA and said, We don't just want to protect young people from hormone therapy or sex changes.
	We want to eradicate transgenderism in our time.
	And those are bold words.
	That's not how a conservative would have reacted back in the day.
	And they'll say things like that.
	They have definitely dropped the...
	You know, well, look, I just believe in personal rights and, you know, I'm going to be a Christian.
	You're going to be a gay atheist.
	We'll go our own way.
	It's all good.
	They might say that sometimes, but they've moved away from that.
	And it's towards this is a Christian country.
	They are not...TPOSA, maybe in a multiverse, could have gone after Trump and been like...
	Listen, y'all, the election was not stolen.
	We lost it.
	This is why we need a more mainstream candidate in the future.
	No. Charlie Kirk dives in headfirst to stop the steal.
	And he said in an interview, if the election doesn't go our way, these are his exact words, if the election doesn't go our way, you've got to get ready to fight.
	So they're preparing the ground for another.
	Stop the steal in 2024.
	Whether they need that or not, we'll see.
	I could go on and on.
	Now, Israel does seem to be a sticking point, but even that, the things Charlie Kirk has said that are That expressed some sort of skepticism of Zionism,
	of we shouldn't be funding Israel anymore.
	America first is America first.
	And I don't like these foreign wars.
	Certainly on Russia, they've gone the way the Groypers.
	It's remarkable.
	And there are some distinctions.
	But the degree to which TPUSA has been influenced by the Groypers is...
	Undeniable. And this leads to this other problem, which is how do you differentiate yourself?
	Are you going to be ruined by your success?
	Nick has consistently been kicked out of TPUSA.
	So I got kicked out of CPAC, I remember, back in 2016.
	And I was being polite.
	Nick is being more aggressive.
	He's going in there with a megaphone, doing videos, loudly talking to people.
	He's going to get kicked out.
	But then it sort of raises the question, well, what is your use if basically TPUSA is the grippers, if they're based?
	And, you know, what differentiates you from them?
	Why are you, if you hate them so much, why are you orbiting them?
	These are questions.
	And you could also kind of say it from another angle of, does TPUSA quietly tolerate AFPAC in the sense that they're all serving the same purpose?
	I mean, I think Nick Fuentes, that is, himself, is more critical and reflective than I would have imagined, actually.
	And I think Nick himself is much, much more intelligent and thoughtful than his fans.
	But he's also a showman and he has a certain personality cult.
	And
	You know, this is a pro-Trump movement.
	Both Charlie Kirk and Nick Fuentes are pushing in the same direction.
	They're pushing towards a populist, America-first movement that is going to elect Donald Trump.
	Now, Nick might be a more...
	Thoughtful and critical and introspective on this when you get him alone.
	But when he's leading the troops, he's not.
	He is pushing in the direction of Trump.
	I don't know how you could read it as anything other than that.
	And so might TPUSA kind of quietly tolerate FPAC?
	So, you know, it's kind of like, I guess, the kids' table or, you know, like these meetings.
	That businessmen or like lawyers or doctors have.
	You know, I went to a number of these when I was a kid where, you know, my father would go to lectures during the day and then, you know, this would take place in, you know, Boston or whatever.
	So you could go to, you know, a cool thing at a great restaurant.
	You know, does AFPAC serve like that?
	You know, the unspeakable, grotesque, extracurricular activity of UTPSA.
	You go to TPSA, but then you, you know, you sneak off at 6 p.m. and listen to Nick Flint or whatever.
	I think there is a lot to that.
	But anyway, I've spoken a little too much.
	Jordan, you were there.
	What do you think of what I've said?
	I'm curious if you could give us a sense of the scene.
	I would push back a little bit on one thing you said about how...
	Sorry, I'm a little bit nervous talking to Richard Spencer here.
	So I would push back a little bit on the idea that at the end of the day, Nick is pushing for a Trump election that TPSA tolerates him a little bit.
	Because what it feels like is Nick is really getting attacked from two directions.
	Because simultaneously, while people...
	And I'm a fan of yours and I'm a fan of the movement.
	I'm really a Nick acolyte.
	I've been following his movement since 2018 and really got involved around the time of Groyper War in 2019 or 2020.
	I know I'm probably not doing the movement any favors, as you can probably tell by my profile picture.
	I'm a biracial guy myself.
	So that kind of fulfills a lot of the stereotypes about the movement.
	But one thing I saw you tweeting earlier that I agreed with was that, yeah, you were 100% right.
	The AFPAC was 95% white.
	So I think the demographics are a little bit overplayed.
	I think people like...
	Like Sneeko and stuff kind of play into that a little bit.
	That's a totally different thing.
	So Sneeko doesn't feel comfortable at AFPAC anymore?
	Is that what I saw?
	Apparently. There was a tweet yesterday where I think he was doing an analysis video of Knicks.
	Monologue laughing at the fact that he got punched in the face.
	Sneeko's words were, I'll always be an N-word hard R to them.
	I'll always be a Nick to them, basically.
	It was kind of funny the way he compared it to Sam Jackson and Leo.
	Yeah, and Leonardo DiCaprio.
	To be fair, in fairness to Nick, the way that security guard punched him was hilarious.
	He drew it with a Superman punch.
	Yeah, it was objectively funny.
	There's so many different ways this can go, but I think being a minority in an explicitly pro-white movement, and this is something I've had to do myself, if you're a minority in an explicitly pro-white movement, you almost have to sacrifice a part of yourself and not let your racial baggage weigh you down.
	You're not going to make it in a movement where you're thinking, I'm always an N-word to them.
	You have to almost sacrifice a piece of yourself.
	That's what I would say to Suniko.
	Okay, but hold on.
	Let me...
	Put a little pressure on that.
	But isn't it kind of strange to be a minority in a pro-white movement?
	Because I agree.
	A lot of people are saying, AF is non-white at this point, and it's a bunch of Latinos and Indians.
	I've never really bought that.
	I mean, I think there might be a...
	Surprising amount of those people, but I would say it's 90, at least, at the very least 90% white kids.
	I'll concede that it is odd for a biracial person to be on a Richard Spencer call and be like a person who's giving speeches.
	You know, outside of TPUSA in favor of Nick.
	It is a bit odd, but at the end of the day, I mean, this is not to sound like a total normie here, but I mean, it's objectively a good thing if America remains a white nation, even for me.
	So that's what I would say to that.
	It's in my interest, too, to make sure that, you know, the demographic makeup of this country is functional.
	So that's what I would say as far as that.
	And yeah, the only thing I'd push back on as far as what you said about Nick, it feels like he's getting attacked from both sides.
	Because while you're saying that he's pushing in the same direction as Trump, he's getting a lot of hate from the right, like the normie right, for saying that he will only vote for Trump under certain circumstances.
	I mean, he's getting attacked for not pushing enough for Trump.
	It's kind of one or the other.
	Is he not pushing in Trump's direction or is he?
	Because at his speech, not at AFPAC because AFPAC was cancelled, but outside of the TPUSA thing where he gave the balcony speech, he said very explicitly that his vote for Donald Trump was contingent.
	It was not a blind vote.
	And the crowd was very supportive of that.
	So if what you're saying is true, and I don't really want this to be a debate about America first.
	I'm more here just to kind of provide commentary from being there.
	But, I mean, if what you're saying is true, then he would have gone up there and just filled Trump for 40 minutes, and he didn't do that.
	Actually, he did the exact opposite of that for about 40 minutes.
	That is a good point.
	I mean, he mentioned explicitly last week or the week before that...
	You know, Donald Trump needs to give us something for us to vote for him.
	But at the same time, it's hard to imagine AF and the Fuentes phenomenon outside of Trump.
	So it is a kind of weird place.
	I agree.
	I was having this debate with a friend of mine who's more involved in normie politics and the MAGA sphere.
	And I think what Nick is setting up right now is exactly like you just said.
	What America first looks like post-Trump.
	And I think he's setting it up very well.
	It was an interesting...
	The way he framed it in his show was...
	I think it was perfect.
	The fact that Trump went...
	I forgot what the conference was called, but Trump was at a libertarian conference a couple weeks ago trying to court the vote of how many people...
	The Libertarian Party, yeah.
	Yeah, I mean, just a few goofy people and he's over there trying to court these people who are booing him.
	It's kind of equivalent of him going to the south side of Chicago saying, I was the best president for blacks when they're not going to vote for him.
	I think that's a fair ask,
	and I think that...
	I agree with him that our vote should be contingent on that.
	I think a lot more people in America First are at least open to holding out their vote than you would think.
	Okay. I mean, the only problem, you know, Trump does give lip service to the far right.
	I mean, at least he did in 2015 and 2016.
	And he now gives lip service to QAnon.
	And in the sense that he'll still retweet a QAnon supporter on True Social or something like that.
	Now, in 2015 and 2016, once is a coincidence, twice is suspicious, thrice is a conspiracy, or there's some sort of phrasing like that.
	It's like if he just happened to tweet the sheriff star, so-called, then maybe we could kind of Say he wasn't doing it, but he consistently was playing footsie with the alt-right at the time,
	and even anti-Semitism with the Sheriff's Star, or even fascism by retweeting a Mussolini quote about, you know, it's better to live one day as a lion than a lifetime as a lamb.
	Whatever that quote was.
	Just some kind of fashy, Nietzschean line attributed to Mussolini.
	And so on, and so on, and so on.
	He kind of is the equivalent of Lilly dropping an end bomb.
	And he does do that.
	And he has in the past.
	Now, by 2020, if we can kind of rewind and go back to where we were at that time, You know, the alt-right as it was, as it was associated with me and as it emerged at that time,
	was, I would say, over.
	But he was no doubt, even the fact that he, you know, administered the creation of the vaccine and the distribution of the vaccine and so on, he was still playing to the crowd of people.
	Who made up Q. And Steve Bannon was just outright quoting Q and saying the storm is upon us, it's here, you know, days before January 6th.
	So if there's one thing Trump is good at, it's that.
	It's plausibly deniable right-wing extremist rhetoric.
	Whether he's going to play to AF is a question, and I don't know.
	He might not.
	I agree with you that he's played, in your words, footsie with the far right in the past, but there's no indication that he is willing to come off of support for Israel whatsoever.
	And the $100 million check for Miriam Adelson says that as well.
	And I think that that's what one of Nick's biggest concerns would be.
	And I think that that's what fundamentally differentiates him from TPUSA.
	Charlie Kirk, and Nick has talked about this too, Charlie Kirk will, and like you said, plenty of Khan Inc.
	will now talk about cutting the foreign aid to Israel, but they won't talk about Jewish influence.
	That's a huge difference.
	That's a major distinction because, yeah, it's very easy to say.
	Well, that $3.8 billion could be used in the black schools.
	That's probably the next thing they're going to do, to be honest.
	But that doesn't answer the question of the fact that Anthony Blinken is visiting Israel or visiting Russia saying, sorry, not visiting Russia, visiting Israel saying, I'm not here as an American, I'm here as a Jew.
	Cutting the $3.8 billion doesn't fix that problem.
	That doesn't fix...
	Alexander Mayorkas being Jewish and his motivations coming from his family escaping the shtetls and the Holocaust.
	And Charlie Kirk is never going to talk about that.
	So I think that that's where Nick differentiates himself and that's a line that I don't ever see Charlie Kirk crossing or Trump for that matter.
	I agree.
	And the other thing is that six months ago, I could actually imagine Trump Doing something remarkably surprising regarding Israel.
	Like, I could imagine him saying, you know, well, you know, Israel was necessary after 45, but now we need to move on.
	And all of his supporters would follow him.
	And I'm not talking about AF here.
	If for no other reason he had a personal vendetta against Bibi Netanyahu, the writing was there.
	The writing was there, and that is part of the problem.
	He could have flanked Biden on this.
	That's the problem.
	There's no doubt.
	And the door was open.
	I totally agree.
	And he also, like 2016, I don't think we should overestimate the kind of Bernie support for Trump.
	Bernie Bro's support for Trump, not Bernie himself, of course, who kowtowed to Hillary.
	But there was a sort of, like, left-wing Trumpism.
	You know, it's small.
	I don't want to overestimate it, but it was there.
	And, you know, it muddied the waters.
	Like, if he did some weird thing...
	While saying, you know, well, I'm actually going to bring Israel to heel or I'm going to move off support of Israel or what Israel's doing is terrible and inhumane, it would muddy the waters enough where, like, a non-zero number of leftists would say,
	well, fuck it, I'm just voting for Trump this year.
	But he didn't do that.
	And I think that's now impossible after what he said.
	I mean, he has made clear statements about, he said Israel should finish the job, but that's about as critical as he's going to get.
	And he is, again, the $100 million, I heard this as well, $100 million to a super fact from Adelson, Miriam Adelson.
	I mean, you can't.
	That has strings attached.
	He is not going to walk anything back about Israel once $100 million is in his pocket.
	That part is over.
	But if that's the case, then why not just outright attack him?
	Because I think Nick smartly sees that Trump is widely popular among the base and he doesn't want to alienate himself, honestly.
	This goes to my idea that he's AFPAC is forever orbiting.
	I mean, people probably would have said that about TPUSA orbiting CPAC.
	I mean, no one really foresaw CPAC's support cratering.
	I mean, I think last year they had 3,000 people.
	Ten years ago, I don't think that you would have predicted that.
	No. So, I mean, I agree with you to an extent, based on, like, current projections, yeah, it's always going to be orbiting as of right now.
	It's going to be orbiting until it isn't.
	I know, maybe that's an oversimplification, but I'm just saying that at one time, CPAC was the only...
	Well, CPAC, I mean, TPUSA didn't literally orbit CPAC, though.
	I mean, they weren't, like, you know, hosting a counter-event and getting kicked out of CPAC.
	You know, they were...
	They were doing their own thing.
	And they appealed to the youth in a much more successful manner.
	There's no question.
	CPAC just became fuddy-duddy.
	I think that's what you're seeing at CPUSA slowly.
	It's a sex scandal.
	Yeah. Sex scandal with whatever his name is, Match Lab.
	Go on.
	Sorry, just to kind of get into some of the logistics that happened.
	Kind of bridges nicely.
	So outside of the TPUSA event, so I flew in from Dallas.
	I live in Dallas, and I flew into Detroit Friday night.
	There was nothing really going on, but Saturday morning, we organized a meetup outside of TPUSA's, outside of their thing.
	And it was about 20 or 30 of us.
	I don't know if you're familiar with him.
	You may have come across his account before.
	Spexo on Twitter.
	Are you familiar with him?
	It rings a bell, but...
	He's one of the America First larger accounts like myself.
	And we organized about 20 or 30 people outside of the event.
	Now, obviously, they didn't let us in because we didn't have lanyards and stuff.
	But we hung out outside, which felt stupid at first.
	But slowly...
	Like boomers, you'd be surprised.
	Like a lot of boomers and Gen Xers eventually started coming up to us and being like, what's your thing here?
	What are y'all doing?
	Because clearly we weren't a part of the TPUSA thing.
	And by all accounts from every person we talked to, they said that the energy in there was terrible.
	So I'm saying that I think you're starting to see, in the same way that Khan Inc.
	became stuffy and fuddy-duddy, I think you're starting to see the same thing with TPUSA.
	I think people are starting to see them as this gimmicky thing.
	You had Alex Clark on stage selling Freedom Water bottles.
	Everything's a gimmick.
	Everything feels like a Mike Wendell pillow shucking.
	And I think people are starting to feel that.
	And even though I completely grant you that TPSA is blowing AF out of the water in terms of fundraising and influence even right now.
	But I think the writing is on the wall, and I think that's what Nick is setting the stage for.
	But TPUSA has Candace Owens saying, Christ is king.
	And Alex Jones doing his thing.
	So it's like, this is the thing.
	I think whereas VPAC felt almost like too good for Alex Jones.
	I think they didn't allow Ann Coulter at one point.
	They had Rush Limbaugh give a...
	Keynote address at one point, but they felt a little too good for Alex Jones or too important.
	And TPUSA, it's kind of interesting.
	Like they, you know, I mean, when they were chanting Christ is King at TPUSA and not, you know, Zionism forever or whatever, whatever they might, you know,
	so I don't know.
	I think they can steal your thunders.
	I guess what I'm saying, because that's what Charlie Kirk has successfully done.
	Yeah, again though, I still think that a lot of those people, the people who are chanting Christ is King in that crowd with Candace, I would say most of them, maybe this kind of proves your point, I'm not sure, I don't think most of those people understand what they're saying when they say Christ is King.
	I think they're just saying that as like, oh yeah, Jesus is king.
	Yep. I don't think they're viewing it as like this transgressive, implicitly anti-Semitic thing.
	I think they're just saying like, yeah, I go to church on Sundays.
	Christ is king.
	Whereas the people in America first, when they're chanting Christ is king, when we're leading a Christ is king chant, it's much more...
	I mean, we know what we're saying.
	So I think there's the conviction there that you don't have with TPUSA.
	So yeah, I don't know if that answers anything, but I think there's an outsized conviction with America First where it punches above its weight, is what I would say.
	So the event itself was canceled, right?
	But there was like a balcony speech given.
	By Fuentes and other people outside on the hotel.
	And Tinrio.
	Yes, I noticed that.
	That was pretty funny.
	Yeah, so...
	We can...
	Yeah, if you want to just really quickly, I can go over kind of what that day looked like, what led to that.
	Yeah, sure.
	Just go over it.
	And I'm curious what it was like, like the scene at night, you know, you guys went to a bar or something like that.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So, okay.
	So, yeah.
	Really, that Saturday started with, like I said, we had about 20 or 30 people outside of TPUSA.
	That's kind of when we started engaging the boomers, engaging the people who were entering and exiting the TPUSA thing.
	Not like accosting them, but just like, hey, what do you believe?
	It was actually funny.
	One boomer lady actually, after hearing us, said, you know what?
	That's funny.
	I did see an APAC booth in there.
	And we were like, exactly.
	So that was a very cool moment where it started clicking with the boomers.
	Like, you know what?
	Now that you mention it, there was a funny blue star on one of the lobby booths.
	So that's good.
	So we had about 20 or 30 people doing that.
	After that, people just started kind of magnetizing towards our group.
	Spexo and I looked up.
	And I'm not exact.
	Like, none of these numbers are exaggerations.
	It would be fun to boost them if I could.
	It was around 100 or 200 people that Spexo and I had following us around Detroit.
	And this was around, I want to say, 2:30 in the afternoon.
	So we have about 200 people.
	We're just kind of marching around, engaging people.
	We go back to the Detroit Renaissance Center, which is like the center of Detroit.
	You know, like that cluster of buildings, the GM Center in Detroit?
	Are you familiar?
	Yeah, I've been to Detroit once.
	I'm vaguely familiar.
	Is that near that giant fist or something?
	What is that big statue that's like a giant hand?
	Yeah, the giant fist.
	Yeah, exactly.
	It's right there.
	Exactly. So we all go back.
	We have about 200 people following us to the hotel.
	It's about 2.30.
	We go back to the hotel just to kill some time until the event at 5. So we're all hanging out, having a drink, talking, and we get the telegram notification from Nick.
	Like a four-page telegram post saying, AFPAC has been cancelled.
	Terribly sorry.
	And we can talk about why it was cancelled and that.
	Oh, sorry.
	Let me...
	Yeah, keep talking.
	Oh, yeah.
	So, yeah.
	We get the notification saying that AFPAC is cancelled.
	Spexo and I kind of have an oh shit moment of like we have two or three hundred people here now like what are we like what are we gonna do with this?
	From there we decide let's just take this group of people to across the TPUSA thing.
	I can see on the screen you have my the video that I think that but that's that's the setting behind this video so we take about or this This moment in the video, that lasted about two or three hours.
	So we take everyone, it's about, again, two or three hundred people, maybe 150 to 200, to the place that's in the video.
	And from there, we basically, me, Spexo, and maybe two or three other America First people who do speaking and content, said like, okay, let's at least try to keep the crowd interested.
	Like, we didn't want to have everyone disband because we're already here.
	And we started giving speeches.
	Pinesap, who's another guy, ended up leading a rosary that was about 500 people deep.
	Paul sang the rosary, which was pretty cool.
	It was a very powerful moment.
	So yeah, we spent about three hours just giving speeches, engaging the crowd, keeping everyone hyped.
	And then Spexo, around 4.30 or 5, is in a group chat with Nick.
	And Nick is saying, should I come to this?
	Apparently, clips had started to leak out.
	Nick talked about this on a show on Monday.
	Clips had started to come out of the crowd of 400 or 500.
	It had swelled to about 500 at that point of people chanting, we want Nick.
	Eventually, Nick was in the group chat with Spexo saying, should I come to this?
	Apparently, in the conversation, Nick eventually said, all right, I'm on my way.
	From there, we had to keep the crowd engaged for another 40 minutes.
	Once it had swelled to about 1,000, I want to say, maybe Maybe 800 to 1,000 was when the crowd started kind of rustling and people could see that, or actually Jake Shields got there first.
	People kind of clocked him.
	And that was kind of the first indication that Nick was coming.
	And then from there, we kind of see the crowd rustling and Nick just kind of flanks the crowd and starts to go up the stairway up to the rooftop.
	And from there, kind of the rest is history.
	Well, let's listen to your speech, and then we'll play the next speech as well.
	Oh, God.
	Okay. We're calling for an end to all immigration until our workforce is put first!
	I hear a lot in there about multiple foreign lobbies.
	Oh, it's the Chinese lobby.
	Oh, it's the Saudi lobby.
	There's only one lobby in there that has a booth that says AIPAC!
	And North Carolina carries!
	We don't just want an end to all foreign influence.
	We want an end to Zionist influence.
	And until that point, until our demands are met, until we get what we deserve, we are not stopping.
	We will be here for every event.
	We will be here in every city.
	And it doesn't matter what they say.
	Because we are putting America first!
	All right, there you go.
	Yeah, that's good stuff.
	So this was just allowed to happen.
	Apparently. You're on public property?
	So we're across?
	So there were barricades in the street because it's an event and it's in a major city.
	So there are barricades that are preventing traffic from flowing.
	So basically, where I'm facing, that's facing this massive convention center, right?
	Well, in the street, the cops had started to work their way up.
	I'd probably say 10 cops and four or five cars.
	They weren't hostile to us, but they were making sure that we stay at least on our side of the street.
	It was never a concern.
	It's not like we were going to go accost people or something.
	But at the same time, Trump was in the vicinity, so I'm sure there are some security concerns if you have a group of 1,000 people, so they have to be careful.
	But I don't really think that TPUSA was like, hell yeah, let's let this happen.
	This is good for us.
	Because we were drawing people from their event.
	I think they were just mainly trying to make sure that we stayed on like...
	Our side of the road.
	You know what I mean?
	And eventually it swelled to the point.
	So Huntington Place, this is where the event was taking place.
	That's a convention hall, I would assume?
	Okay. Yeah, yeah.
	It's a really wide convention hall.
	And then that street area eventually kind of got a little bit...
	No, actually Nick is speaking there.
	So yeah, people had kind of packed in towards Nick.
	But before that, it was a little bit more in the street and stuff.
	Yeah, the cops were there keeping a distance between our group and their side of the sidewalk.
	And they couldn't disperse you, really, at this point.
	I don't know how many exactly, but 500 is a good estimate, if not more.
	Yeah, it was around that amount.
	I would probably say 500 to 600.
	So let's just listen to a little bit of this and just to get a taste.
	There's kind of a funny story behind the down.
	Oh, okay.
	Yeah, so you heard the down with Israel chant, right?
	Yeah. Yeah, that was not Nick leading that.
	When we were doing the impromptu speeches waiting for Nick, there's a guy who has earned the moniker Homeless Groyper now on Twitter.
	He wasn't a part of us, but we don't know if he was a vagrant.
	We don't know what his story was.
	He was just kind of there.
	He was grungy-looking, nasty, greasy hair.
	He looked like a homeless guy.
	That's why he got Homeless Groyper.
	So when we were giving speeches, he kept trying to...
	I don't know...
	If he was, like, based or what.
	But he kept trying to co-opt the speeches with, like, fuck Israel!
	Fuck Israel!
	Or, like, just, like, horrible optics chants, basically.
	And I don't know how he got up there.
	Or I don't know if he was up there with Nick or if he was, like, in the crowd.
	But eventually his voice was, he just would not stop.
	And eventually his voice, like, got loud enough to where, like, it picked up with more normie people in the crowd.
	And Nick did not want to do the fuck Israel chant, or down with Israel chant at all.
	So that's why he's kind of looking around like, oh god, can we kind of stop this one?
	So yeah, that was not Nick's idea on that one.
	We won't listen to this whole thing, but let's listen just a little bit.
	What a crap!
	Don't worry.
	I think people are going to be done.
	I'm here to tell you that Israel is not the king of the United States.
	Down with Israel!
	Jesus Christ is the King of the United States of America!
	Christ is King!
	And you know something?
	It's a little bit disappointing.
	Because when I went out to support Donald Trump in 2015...
	I went out there because he said he would not take money from donors, special interests, and certainly not from APAC.
	But, but, it seems like now Donald Trump is content to take a hundred million dollars from Miriam Adelson!
	Cheering
	We have a Muslim American over here, isn't that great?
	Donald Trump is taking a hundred million dollars from Miriam Adelson.
	And I'd like to remind everybody, Miriam Adelson is a single issue voter.
	She only cares about one country, but it's not the United States.
	She only cares about the Jewish state of Israel.
	Okay, so this gets to a couple of things that I mentioned before, which, first off, how do you differentiate yourself?
	You have to just come out firing on what makes you different.
	And so this is all about Israel and Miriam Adelson and, you know, Trump is, and it is critical of Trump, definitely.
	It's not treating Trump as like an innocent, you know, he's betraying his cause.
	I mean, I'm not sure his cause was ever anti-Zionist, but we'll leave that be for the moment.
	But it's, the interesting or I guess kind of ironic thing about it still is.
	That it's orbiting TPUSA in the sense that, you know, he's directly yelling at the convention center and the people in there.
	Literally orbiting it.
	Yeah, literally orbiting it, I guess.
	And in your speech, you were saying, you know, there's the Chinese lobby or the Saudis and whatever, but there's only one lobby inside.
	So it's almost like this, you know, desire, disaffected.
	TPUSA supporters who want to clean out TPUSA.
	It is interesting.
	I'm saying this as an observation, not necessarily as a criticism, because that dynamic grabs people's attention.
	It is almost impossible to go out and do activism.
	About a vague cause.
	Do you want to go out and just say climate change is real, it's destroying the planet, etc.?
	I think people are like, okay, I agree with you maybe, but what are you talking about?
	Or just going out and being anti-Zionist.
	You could say the same about being anti-war.
	That's too vague.
	Exactly. So it has to be specific, directed at...
	Directed at an audience, but directed at an object.
	And there has to be some sort of achievable thing.
	You have to go out and say,"We want you to kick out the APAC booth from TPUSA." There has to be some achievable goal.
	For it to make sense and not just be kind of like, why are you here?
	Because you'll always see these people.
	I remember going to an air show in Chicago one time and there was a guy kind of vaguely talking about climate change.
	I was like, okay, I get it.
	But why?
	And what?
	And so, I mean, in some ways, what sounds like a criticism is It's just like that's how you do it.
	Your guidance for AF is always welcome.
	I will say that over the weekend your name was kind of a hot topic in the crowd and in the AF sphere.
	In a good way.
	Good. I was actually at a baseball game while this was all going on.
	So I was totally...
	Doing the normie stuff.
	So, okay.
	So what was the party like afterward?
	Oh, so like the thing where Sneeko got punched?
	That club bar thing?
	Yeah, yeah.
	What happened there?
	And I'm curious what the party was like as well.
	Yeah, so I'll be honest.
	I was not there for the party.
	That was actually only four.
	So there were three tiers of the AF ticket.
	There was the general admission for a hundred dollars.
	There was the $200 ticket that got you general admission and then the after party.
	And then there was another tier.
	I think it was between like five and 10,000 or if they invited you, if you had like a especially large platform, which is what the person got who I was rooming with.
	If you have like an amazing platform or something, they'll offer you a VIP,
	I think the $5,000 and $10,000 thing had maybe 30 or 40 people.
	I'm not trying to count Nick's money here.
	I'm just saying that 30 or 40 people qualified to be VIPs.
	So after the speech and everything, people kind of disbanded and we went out to dinner and there were people taking pictures.
	But me, Spexo, and Pinesap went to the actual thing.
	Because we thought it would be open.
	We thought the VIP party was going to basically be open to that 200 level tier, which is what we were.
	But basically what happened is that the club got so full that they were not letting even America First people or Normie, like people who didn't know what was going on, into the club.
	It got a little too rambunctious in there because apparently what happened is even though they had approval to do their VIP party at the club, like this is kind of the story of the weekend.
	They would get approval to go to these places.
	They would meet with the owners, whoever, put down money, and the people just would not honor their contracts.
	That's what the story of the weekend was.
	They had approval to go.
	They had permission and everything.
	They even had security on the side of the stage where Jared Taylor was speaking, James Kirkpatrick, Nick, whoever else spoke.
	They had all this stuff to be there.
	Apparently, the You could guess.
	The mostly black security guards didn't exactly like hearing Jared Taylor talk about the adoration of the Negro.
	You know what I mean?
	So eventually they started, I think apparently, according to Nick, they started playing music really loudly, like basically trying to get them out of there and make them uncomfortable.
	And then the sneak-go-punch thing apparently happened.
	That set it off.
	And then that's when they started to kind of come out one by one.
	I did get to see Nick really briefly, though.
	We talked to him for about 30 seconds while he was on his way to his car.
	But yeah, I wasn't inside of the party.
	I was outside of that exact thing.
	Interesting. So Lily, our girl, was there.
	So there were a lot of people with just platforms.
	Yeah, exactly.
	So, yeah, I mean, if you're like just a normal, like America First, or who just watches Nick, but you have an extra $5,000, there were those people who were there, but then there were, like I said, people like Jared Taylor, who I'm sure didn't have to pay $5,000 to be at the party.
	You know what I mean?
	Yeah, yeah, sure.
	All right, interesting.
	So, Raven, we've kind of left you out of the conversation a little bit.
	Do you have massive FOMO or do you have observations or not FOMO?
	What are your thoughts on all this?
	Yeah, I'm just, you know, getting the download.
	This is not really my scene, so it's just an interesting anthropology to kind of hear what's going on in these different subcultures.
	I think the aesthetic stuff is pretty interesting that you guys were talking about.
	And then the differentiation question was also interesting.
	I was just listening.
	I don't have so much to say about the internal dynamics there.
	I guess my question maybe would be where do you think this is going?
	Do you think that These aesthetics are going to become, you know, gimmicky and people are going to get tired of them and they're going to look for something else.
	And what might that be?
	Yeah, I'm curious of where this goes as well.
	You can jump in on that, Jordan.
	Yeah, I just think I don't want to monopolize the conversation, but I would just say that the unique thing that sets AF apart.
	is the cult aspect of it.
	I think Nick would admit as much also.
	You could say, like, I guess the argument would be that eventually America First will get stuffy and it'll meet the same fate as TPUSA, but the thing is is that these people, I've talked to them, they have an undying loyalty to Nick.
	They will fly across the country.
	If Nick put AFPAC...
	In Germany, they would go.
	You don't have that with Charlie Kirk, so there's a unique insulation.
	I don't think Halfpack is in danger of getting stuffy.
	I think the question is, it's twofold, at least for me.
	Is it ever going to move beyond being...
	Because this reminds me a lot of the travails that I went through back in the alt-right period.
	I didn't really go through these.
	Well, I went through them in 2014 with Hungary, where we had a conference canceled by Victor Orban, and I was thrown in jail for a weekend.
	I definitely can empathize with a lot of this.
	We also had some successful events that went off of that hitch.
	We went to restaurants.
	There was no problem.
	Old Abbott Grill, we hung out there and had steak and so on.
	There was a little bit of an Antifa presence.
	But then once it got to 2016, it was this all the time.
	It was just like cancellation after cancellation.
	Antifa, they wormed their way into the party and they...
	Were they actively attacked the party?
	I mean, I experienced all of these things.
	And I kind of concluded that there's no way forward.
	But I guess this type of atmosphere has gone on longer than I would have imagined.
	So there's that issue.
	And then I guess there's also this issue of, as I've said a few times, I don't...
	I think we're passing over a horizon.
	And it's very hard to imagine what's on the other side.
	I don't know what anything looks like after the 2024 election.
	Because, as I've said many times, I do not think that there is Trumpism without Trump.
	And there's no DeSantean Trumpism.
	There's no...
	You know, Bobertian Trumpism or what have you.
	Or even MTG.
	Or Marge Taylor Greenian Trumpism with Greenian characteristics.
	Exactly. I don't think...
	And I think the DeSantis campaign, among other things, proved this.
	It's like, you can't do it.
	It does not work.
	It would...
	I don't know what to say.
	It would be like this super cool guy entering the party with a leather jacket.
	And he's like, oh, hey, y'all.
	I didn't know the party got started already.
	And everyone's like, oh, my God, he's so cool.
	And then an hour later, a nerd went and bought a leather jacket and sunglasses and came in and said the exact same line.
	It's just like, okay, man.
	You know, it just doesn't work.
	I think any sort of like DeSantis movement or Marge movement is just going to be like that.
	It's like, look, there's no magic.
	You're just repeating things and the things you add are not as cool or hilarious or ridiculous as what Trump did.
	And so it just doesn't work.
	I think Nick would admit as much that he doesn't know what will happen after 2028 either.
	I think that's why he's trying to position himself not to be...
	And this is me speculating.
	I don't want to make it come off as like I'm speaking on behalf of Nick.
	This is my speculation.
	Yeah, sure.
	I think Nick is positioning himself not to be the heir apparent of Trumpism.
	I don't think that he thinks that.
	I think he's positioning himself to just be a uniquely positioned person to be able to have influence.
	I don't really know how to word it.
	I just feel like he's almost playing free agent in the right wing, almost.
	You don't know where Fuentes' support is going to lie.
	The same can't be said of Charlie Kirk.
	What is Charlie Kirk going to do after Trumpism?
	He will go to DeSantis.
	That's the thing.
	Whether that's possible or whether it will work is another question.
	But, you know, Charlie Kirk is still attached to the hip with the GOP.
	Now, he has gone towards the Gripers or Trump, etc., in a way that I find remarkable.
	But, yeah, he...
	They might even be kind of thinking about or planning moving on.
	Although I don't even know, but I could at least imagine that more easily.
	But it is kind of a question.
	I mean, I got to a point where it's like I didn't want to endlessly have events canceled and have, like, fights with Antifa.
	Now, Antifa's presence has diminished precipitously, but regardless...
	And so I kind of want to just do my own thing.
	It's very small.
	We're doing intellectual stuff.
	We're not attached to the scene.
	But Nick has obviously not chosen that.
	Yeah, so don't you think it's a smart...
	This is just a question on my part.
	Don't you think it's a smart move then for him to be in the process of decoupling himself from the GOP?
	I feel like he's been working on that for like a year now or maybe longer.
	Okay, it's a difficult trick.
	Yeah, I mean, I don't think that anyone in the GOP thinks that Nick represents them.
	I think that they actively hate Nick, and I think that he's positioned himself well to not be a GOP show.
	I guess your counter would be that fundamentally his points aren't that much different from the GOP.
	I think they are, especially the Jewish influence stuff.
	I'm just saying that he...
	He is decoupling himself from the GOP.
	You could probably argue he's already done that.
	Yeah, so I think that that's a smart move.
	I don't see TPUSA getting 10,000 people with Ron DeSantis walking out there, and I don't see Charlie maintaining this influence.
	I don't see Charlie maintaining this influence without Trump.
	I agree with that.
	That's why we've just reached this horizon and what's on the other end.
	We don't know.
	I do want to play this thing.
	Adam Green, we'll kind of go on a bit of more ideological criticism, but before I do that, a play called Italy.
	You've had your hand up for a little while.
	Yeah, hey.
	You're free to speak.
	Yeah, thank you.
	I just lowered it because you guys kind of answered or kind of touched on something that I was going to bring up with the...
	You know, the Antifa stuff back in 2016, 2017, I mean, yeah, you know, it could be the fact that, you know, America First PAC and the Fuentes and the like, well, you know, they might be able to sustain their efforts a little bit more or a lot more because the fact that Antifa is so,
	and the radical left is so preoccupied with Israel, right?
	So, you know, I wonder if back in 2016, 2017, if...
	There was an Israeli invasion of Gaza if more people would have showed up in actual meat space to actually attend events and stuff that Richard had hosted back then in 2016, 2017,
	2018. Yeah, because Antifa was just pointed directly at any dissident right movement and not preoccupied with an Israeli invasion.
	I mean, if Antifa exists at all, they are...
	I think the decline of Antifa is actually a hugely important topic that I don't want to dwell too much on.
	But I mean, Antifa wasn't really out in force counter-protesting J6.
	And I haven't really seen them.
	Now, there have been kind of like...
	Nasty, aggressive protests that are against Israel and pro-Palestinian.
	That's interesting.
	I mean, if there is a kind of energy of Antifa, it's there.
	But I think the kind of end of Antifa is kind of fascinating, actually, as a topic.
	But yeah, I mean, I think you're definitely making some good points.
	they're kind of maybe conflicted themselves.
	I think they've just had their funding pulled
	I don't think their funding was massive, but I do think people were willing to pay their bail and throw some money so that they could all rent a car and drive someplace to protest.
	And I think that funding has been pulled.
	And this is all speculative, obviously, but I think this is significant that this has happened.
	Over the weekend, the very small Antifa contingent that we did see, and I'm talking less than 10 people, the tiny contingent we saw, I think a couple of them actually lent us an ear to the speeches and were kind of on our side.
	Because did you hear during the speech, Nick said, there's a Muslim guy here.
	I'm almost positive that guy was at least vaguely tied to that Antifa group or was like...
	I think we had two or three Muslims that got pulled from there into that speech who were at least open to it.
	And at least anecdotally, in my personal life, I've gotten a lot of leftists that are like, yeah, I know you're associated with the America First movement, but what you guys are saying about Zionism is 100% correct.
	Obviously, they're not like our allies, and I'm not going to be like a third worldist advocate or anything.
	I'm just saying it's an interesting trend that people who in my personal life would have hated me years ago are looking at my content now saying, I don't agree with y'all on the America First stuff, but you guys are dead on on the Zionist stuff and the fact that we all
	get labeled anti-Semites.
	So just an interesting thing.
	All right, let's do a little Adam Green because Adam Green I selectively chose clips, and then he talks about this.
	And so I'll let Adam Green voice the harsh criticism.
	I might even defend AF here and there.
	But I do think that Adam is getting at something very important.
	So this is a good...
	I don't know if we'll watch the whole 20 minutes, but this is a...
	A very good rundown.
	It also, he gets in some of the conservative pushback against Nick, which I also think is significant.
	Is Judaism a Christian religion?
	Do Jews worship Jesus?
	That's the problem that they have with Jews, is they don't bow down to who they think the Messiah is.
	To their rejected Messiah.
	Hating them because they don't believe in the Messiah that was meant to conquer us.
	That's what it is.
	So fake
	Because the Christians believe in the Torah.
	That's why.
	Why do Jews have influence over Christian America?
	Because America's Christian.
	How could you be so blind to not see this?
	And then we get the token black in the back.
	They're the devil!
	They're devils!
	I'm sorry, but most people, all the Christian Zionists, all the Jews, most average people, most normies, see some lunatics screaming, they're the devil!
	And you guys completely delegitimize opposition to Jews, calling them devils, calling them synagogue of Satan, and crying about them killing Jesus.
	This is the reality.
	Everybody with common sense that hasn't drank the Kool-Aid and joined the...
	Join the delusional cult.
	You know, it's funny.
	Just working on this book, I talked a little bit about, I guess it's Genesis 49. And this word that is translated as Shiloh in the King James Bible.
	And so it's something to the effect.
	Jacob's blessing of Judah.
	Oh, God's mute.
	It's Jacob's blessing of Judah.
	So he passes over Reuben, who went and slept with the concubines, and he blesses Judah.
	And it's, the scepter shall not fall from Judah's hand until Shiloh comes.
	That's how it's translated in the King James Bible.
	And so there's this, the Shiloh is a kind of, you know, it's like Azazel.
	Very curious and intriguing word.
	So Shiloh is a place.
	It was an encampment in the Holy Land during Joshua's invasion and conquering.
	And so you could say that it's like the site of the tent of meeting and Yahweh himself.
	Some Christians, I believe, have taken Shiloh as a name for God.
	In the Septuagint, so the Greek Bible, Shiloh is reinterpreted or re-translated as Shellow.
	So, you know, Hebrew does not have vowels as we know them, so it's kind of like, you know, they would write a word like DG.
	Does that mean dog?
	Does that mean dig?
	Does that mean Doug?
	Does that mean dog?
	Some weird word that we don't know, like Shiloh.
	Who knows?
	It's ambiguous.
	And so they translated it to shallow, which means belonging to him.
	And so what I guess I'm saying there is that with Shiloh or shallow, however you want to translate it, however you want to interpret it, you can interpret it both ways.
	There's a messianic expectation.
	Within Judaism itself.
	So it's all about there will come from the tribe of Judah something that will ultimately rule the roost and inaugurate a new age.
	So messianic longing is present even in Genesis.
	And if you are a Christian, you could read into this and say, oh, well, you know, the Gospels are...
	Fulfilling the prophecies of the Old Testament.
	It's a long digression to make a point, which is that what Adam's saying is true.
	Any sort of Christian anti-Semitism takes place within Judaism.
	You have rejected your Messiah.
	The Pharisees who also...
	Had messianic longing, rejected Jesus.
	They called for his death, in fact.
	But they have rejected their own Messiah.
	And so it's always this very deeply ambivalent and curious thing.
	And I don't know how...
	You can fully square this nut.
	Do you want to kill the Jews?
	Do you want the Jews to convert to Christianity?
	Do you want to thank the Jews for being the people associated with this prophecy and messianic longing?
	If the Jews didn't kill Christ, then you are not redeemed from your sins.
	I mean, it's a weird way of...
	Being anti-Jewish in the sense that, you know, according to Christians, all Christians, you are deserving of hellfire.
	But thankfully, Christ has been sacrificed for your sins.
	And that couldn't occur without the Pharisees.
	So it's not like, you know, what's a good example here?
	This is a stupid example, but it makes the point.
	I hate O.J. Simpson because he killed Nicole.
	Nicole is wonderful.
	She was a queen among women, and O.J. killed her.
	He's a bad, bad man.
	Well, that makes sense in that context, but you can't really hate the Jews if you're a Christian because otherwise you would be deserving of being burned in hell.
	The Jews are not O.J. to bring this full circle.
	And in a kind of bizarre way.
	The Jews are, the Pharisees are necessary to the story.
	The story doesn't make sense without them.
	You won't have eternal life if they hadn't done this.
	So even if you sort of think that they're wrong, which is legitimate from a Christian perspective, like on why do you hate them?
	Do you understand what I'm saying?
	Or anyone can pick up on that.
	Yeah, I mean, just from a Catholic angle, I don't think there's any hatred there.
	I mean, kind of a...
	Maybe it's a little bit reductive, but I mean, I'm a Catholic and I go to Mass every Sunday and I pray for the Jews' conversion.
	There's no hatred.
	Right. Well, someone yelling they're the devil or they're demons.
	I also think that that's a little...
	Sure. I would say that that's, I'm not going to say selectively edited, but that's also not Nick saying that.
	That's a random person yelling that.
	So, I mean, I don't expect Adam to, like, know who, like, every side character is on Nick's balcony.
	But I'm just saying, like, that's not Nick's message.
	But it is the guy right behind him.
	I mean, there's some symbolism there.
	It's kind of a place of prominence.
	I would just say that Nick is pretty explicitly anti-hate.
	And as cringe as it is, I can already hear it's mirroring Dems are the real racist line.
	But there were two different chants during the speech where Nick said, we don't hate the Jews, and it led into a chant of love speech.
	So I know that that's kind of cringe.
	I know that it's like, oh, well, what?
	You loved it?
	Well, Kanye was radical in this regard because he took the Christian love metaphor to its final conclusion, which is that I love Hitler.
	And so he turned it around because the whole point of anyone calling upon Christian love is to say, you know, we love everyone.
	That's why we hate Hitler.
	But he kind of took it, turned the tables on them.
	Said something that was genuinely radical, if a bit ridiculous also, but genuinely radical of, you know, but I, in fact, love Hitler.
	And that was fascinating.
	But anyway, we'll continue to watch.
	you.
	Well, Nick kind of laughs at that.
	If America's a Christian country, why would God allow the devil to conquer our country?
	Does that make any sense?
	Meanwhile, the Kabbalists have always believed that Christianity is satanic and idolatrous, and Jesus represents Satan.
	So they think that you're satanic, and you're being scapegoated as the villains, as the villain Esau satanic role.
	Falling for the trap.
	But hey, 300-pound black guy screaming, they're the devil!
	That's great optics wars.
	That's really going to win it for us.
	Because they're the devil!
	Embarrassing. So embarrassing.
	They were chanting that they love Hitler and the Jews killed Jesus.
	And that's what the masses are going to see.
	That's what the masses are going to hear.
	And then you're just immediately discredited.
	Having your token black guy up here so you don't appear like a white supremacist.
	Chanting they're the devil, he loves Hitler, Christ is king.
	You have to be totally stupid to not see how this is gay ops.
	You conflate real criticisms with idiocy, with lunacy, and this type of trolling, it undermines the true things you say.
	It's a simple concept.
	You can talk about some real things.
	I agree with them when they talk about Zionist power in America and the Jewish mafia operating.
	Sure. Sorry, not to interrupt.
	I mean, what he just said there is, Adam Green said, quote, I agree with them when they talk about Zionism in the Jewish lobby.
	I mean, isn't that exactly, not to break my arm patting myself on the back, but isn't that literally what I did in that speech and didn't bring up Christ as king?
	I think I approached it from a pretty reasonable angle.
	Yeah, you approach it from a working class angle as well.
	But from Adam's own opinion, wouldn't he have agreed with everything I said?
	In the one minute snippet, I don't think Adam would have a problem with what you said.
	You almost made a secular working class argument.
	This is just me, again, not speaking on behalf of Nick, because that's where it gets hairy.
	Me, personally, when I'm critiquing Zionism, those are my critiques.
	One, I don't consider myself as a well-read enough Catholic to delve into scripture with a Jew or a Protestant, frankly.
	I think it's much more effective to say, why is there an AIPAC lobby?
	Like, why is there an AIPAC lobby?
	Okay, but that's fine.
	But then why are you at Nick Flint's event?
	Because I think Nick agrees with that, too.
	Nick's only critique of Israel is not that they killed Christ.
	Well, that's not correct.
	You think that his only critique of Jews is that they killed Christ?
	Well, that's not his only critique, but that's what he's leading with.
	I mean, we just saw, we just watched his, you know, we're just watching this clip.
	That's also what is going to be taken away by most people who encounter this.
	Yeah. Like I said, I just think it's more effective to go after the secular argument just from a purely pragmatic angle.
	Not even that I disagree with Nick about the deicide and everything.
	I actually agree with him on that.
	I just don't consider myself educated enough on that angle.
	And I think the secular thing works for me better.
	Well, I mean...
	At least on a short-term basis, it might be more effective to call them demons because you're definitely going to get a lot of attention.
	And there are a number of people who are going to just resonate with that immediately.
	Salacious, there's that kind of, you know, shock, the system type, you know, attitude to that.
	Like, this is what I, everything's so boring.
	I want to hear someone just do fire and redstone.
	I mean, pastors...
	You know, Episcopalian pastors who give kind of liberal, secular sermons get overwhelmed by the guy who's just like, you know, those demon women are going to hell!
	They'll be burning for eternity!
	People want to hear a Bishop Fulton Sheen-style anti-Semitic rant.
	That's what people want.
	Right. And that's what he's giving them.
	I mean, I guess this does raise the question of, like, if AFPAC or Fuentesism is going to outlast Trump, and I think it will, there's no doubt it will in some shape or form.
	I don't think Nick is going to disappear, or this network is going to disappear.
	But might the only way that it exists be as a sort of, like, hardcore...
	Religious right or really Catholic right?
	You know, literal demonization of Jews and Jezebels, etc.
	That's a fair question.
	I'm not sure.

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