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July 17, 2023 - Rudy Giuliani

01:25:27

America's Mayor Live (E191): The Gilgo Beach Serial Killer (Pt. 1)

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	Good evening and welcome to America's Mayor Live with me, Rudy Giuliani.
	Tonight, we're going to discuss and really do an introduction to the Gilgo Beach murders, which are a lot more complex and a lot more difficult than the just recent arrest Uh, indicates that was the arrest of Rex Howerman, who was arrested on July 13, just a short while ago in Manhattan at his office or in the vicinity of his office.
	And he's been charged with the murder of three women.
	And he's been named as the suspect in the murder of a, of a fourth woman.
	And we're going to try to explain this case to you and simplify it as much as possible.
	This is a very complex case, and we're also going to do a podcast of it.
	And then with the podcast, we're going to leave something we haven't done before, but like footnotes, which will include the 911 calls.
	Particularly of the original person who went missing that brought attention to this case, Shannon Gilbert.
	And strangely, Shannon Gilbert, who is the original person who brought attention to this case, is not one of the women who is involved in the three murders that are charged
	or in the fourth one in which Howerman is named as a suspect at this point. So if you don't
	mind, like we did a week or so ago, I'm also going to introduce my podcast so we can use part
	of this for that. And then I'm going to send you all to the podcast if you want the background
	information.
	Now, you can get a lot of it online yourself, but what we try to do, Ted and I, is to assemble it in a way that at least makes sense, along with the explanations that we're giving, because there are going to be lots of crazy theories about this case.
	There already have been.
	And what we're trying to do is to give you Factually what's available and then the theories, some of which are going to turn out to be correct and some of which aren't.
	We're in an area that I know a lot about crime and I think we can pretty much guide you through this and help you understand this case better.
	Serial murders are really extremely complex,
	and both from the point of view of solving and from the point of view of understanding.
	The place from the human mind from which this emerges is not really understood by modern psychology and psychiatry.
	Oh.
	So they guess at it as much as you do.
	Maybe theirs are a little more educated than mine or yours, but maybe not.
	Maybe not.
	So let's start it off again.
	Hello, everyone, and welcome to Rudy Giuliani's Common Sense.
	Actually, Rudy's Common Sense.
	I don't know why I got so formal, but I did probably because of the nature of the subject.
	So we're going to be talking today about the Gilgo Beach murders.
	Now that can mean a number of different things, and it will mean a number of different things.
	But we're going to focus, because we'll probably do several on this, we're also going to do something unusual.
	When I finish, we're going to put the 911 calls of the original woman Who, not the original who went missing, but the original one who called attention to this by going missing.
	And that was Shannon Gilbert.
	Those calls are long.
	They're about 30 minutes, I believe.
	But you have to listen to them so you can make your own opinion.
	You make up your own mind and your own opinion about a crucial part of this case or an offshoot of this case.
	You'll know what I mean when we get to it.
	But I mean, basically, the question is, in the case of this one woman, Shannon, was she actually under attack?
	And was she murdered?
	Or was she going through some kind of a psychological or psychotic episode?
	A drugged drug episode?
	And, uh, by running away and running into, uh, what are the marshes?
	And, uh, then, then somehow falling and, or did she in essence, uh, cause her own death or, or was her death caused by someone?
	And then of course, the question is what about Howerman?
	Since this is this, her body was found in an area Maybe a mile away from where the three women whose murders he's charged with and the one where he's the suspect were found.
	We'll get into all that.
	I think the best way to start with, excuse me, is to talk about right now and then we'll go back.
	In other words, what just happened?
	This happened on July 13, 2023.
	A Manhattan architect, or architectural consultant, and his work and his business is kind of cloudy.
	It's not like real precise.
	Now, there was a podcast done And in future episodes, we'll present some of that, but it would get us off the point to spend too much time on that.
	But there was a podcast done very recently in which he was interviewed about his work, and it's worth listening to that, and we'll probably put that out within the next couple of days after you can digest this.
	So this will give you a sense of being able to evaluate him because it's unusual that you get a serial killer before they are named as such, alleged serial killer, where they have this kind of discussion about what kind of work they do and why they do it.
	And you can draw your own conclusions about him.
	You're probably going to hear the opinions of other people now as we get into this, but You know, you can sort of separate yourself from that and make your own judgment about it.
	So, as I pointed out earlier, this Rex Howerman was arrested in Manhattan on July 13, 2023, charged with three murders and one Named as a suspect and the case is in Suffolk County, New York, which Suffolk County is a Suburban a suburb of New York part of the New York metropolitan area a very vital part of it It's a large county.
	It's about 2 million people It is basically Rural in part Suburban in part It adjoins Nassau County, which is the county right before it, and both of them occupy Long Island.
	Long Island is a strange jurisdiction because it has four counties, Brooklyn, Queens, part of New York City.
	Okay?
	When you get beyond Queens, you go into Nassau County, you go into a separate county of New York State with about 2 million people.
	And then when you get beyond Nassau County, you go to Suffolk County, which also has approximately the same population, except it's a much bigger county geographically.
	Nassau is almost purely suburban.
	Some rural areas, but they really couldn't be described as such.
	But you have some empty land there, not much.
	Nassau County got filled in very, very quickly after World War II.
	Levittown is one of the famous developments that was done on Nassau County right after the war,
	but there were hundreds if not thousands of them done.
	Some were done in Suffolk County, but Suffolk County then becomes too much of a commute to New York for everyone, so that stayed more rural and more open.
	So these are the two counties we're going to be dealing with, Nassau and Suffolk.
	The defendant, Howerman, however he pronounces it, lived in Nassau County in the town of Massapequa Park, which is a separate town from Massapequa.
	It's the next one after it on the Long Island Railroad.
	It's on the southern tip of the island, meaning it's close to the beaches and to the Atlantic Ocean.
	And it's a, without any doubt, a typical American suburban county.
	I wouldn't call it rich.
	It's certainly not poor.
	You might call it upper middle class, given the salary levels all throughout the United States.
	And it is quite pretty and quite nice.
	And you'll see that plays a role in this to some extent.
	Now, the crimes involved here go back 13 years.
	At least.
	And he really was caught because of the work of some Very, very, oh my goodness, I would say superior police personnel.
	And I'm happy to say that, particularly at this point in our history, and I want to make sure you get all of this the right way.
	At this point in our history with all of the breakdowns that we see, you know, in the upper echelon, let's say, of the FBI, where it's one case after another that seems to be not able to be investigated and completed, which seems very simple to do.
	Or the recent case of cocaine in the White House that the Secret Service dropped in 11 days This investigation has been going on with the Suffolk County Police for 13 years.
	And although there are a lot of complaints, Particularly by the families and others and legitimate complaints that this investigation was delayed, that it wasn't done well.
	There are two schools of thought on that.
	One school of thought is it was about prostitutes and therefore the district attorney and the police commissioner and the police didn't pay enough attention to it or that It, uh, there's an underlying this case in a way that hasn't really been articulated yet, even as an allegation, but even as a specific allegation, but as a general allegation, this involves a great deal of corruption.
	So you have both of those, uh, theories that lead to a real discomfort with, uh, the way this case was handled, particularly under commissioner Burke.
	who was the police commissioner at the time that this began.
	Now that gets exacerbated by the fact that Burke is no longer the police commissioner.
	Burke instead is the inhabitant of a state prison at this point.
	He was convicted for beating up a man who took his pornography, meaning Burke's pornography.
	And he administered a very serious beating to him.
	And then he covered it up and the district attorney of the county, District Attorney Spoda, was also convicted and he's gone to jail.
	So that, whether that's connected to this or not, is going to be a very big part as we develop this, what will turn out to be incredibly complex, but very revealing criminal case.
	The Hauermann part and the three girls and the one girl is actually the easiest part to analyze as a singular case.
	I mean, it's a fairly, serial killing is never typical, but it's a straightforward serial killing case.
	Meaning you'll see how it was investigated.
	You'll see what the proof that we presently know about is.
	There's no question that there's going to be more to what we have.
	But we have the bare bones of the case right now.
	And let's see.
	Okay.
	All right, now.
	The, um...
	It's a good thing.
	After all this time, there really were three things that led to the arrest of Howerman.
	One was, they were able to identify, well, they were able to realize that they had records going back to almost the beginning, and this is what leads to some of the problem, that allowed them to identify A car owned and driven by the defendant Rex Howerman with a car that was identified as the car that picked up one of the four, uh, uh, one of the four women that were involved in, in this case, I believe it was, um, I believe it was, um,
	With one of the four that is charged, her murderous charge in the case, Amber Costello.
	She was seen picked up in a car right on the day that she went missing that very much resembles or maybe exactly this car.
	Now, this piece of evidence wasn't developed until the new task force was put together.
	And the reality is, That this was available some time ago, if not at the beginning, near the beginning of the case.
	And this is part of one of the many problems with the case.
	So did that, was that disregarded on purpose or was it disregarded because they were not doing the best job until the new team came in, which we'll describe in a minute.
	And there's no question.
	From the day that happened, this has been like a textbook investigation.
	Up until that point, it's anything but a textbook investigation.
	It seems to be one mistake after another, or one cover-up after another.
	And I don't, and I haven't been involved in this enough, and I haven't analyzed it enough to give you a definitive opinion on that.
	But I will eventually, as we keep going through this.
	And so let's start off with, so if we look here, Ted, we'll see we have the famous sign for Gilgo Beach in New York.
	I'll tell you what Gilgo Beach is.
	Gilgo Beach is one of the many beaches after Jones Beach along the southern shore of Long Island that's on the Atlantic Ocean.
	Long Island is about 120 miles long, and most of it is beach.
	The southern part of Long Island is on the Atlantic Ocean.
	And as you start going further and further out, you're almost there with Gilgal Beach, which is the North Atlantic.
	I mean, this is the real Atlantic Ocean.
	And Gilgal Beach is after the very famous Well, I mean, if you go to Brooklyn, you'd have Coney Island, people would all remember that and Rockaway.
	And then you'd have like Long Beach, when you get to Nassau County, you'd have Point Lookout, then you'd have the famous Jones Beach that goes on for miles and is and has a those beaches from basically Oh, right after Point Lookout to Jones Beach and then beyond Jones Beach, there's a highway called Ocean Parkway.
	It's a four-lane highway that's going to become critical to this place that must go for miles, 20, 30 miles, all along these beaches.
	The ones you would remember and know would be Coney Island and Reese Park and Long Beach and Point Lookout and Lido Beach.
	Jones Beach.
	It's about eight or nine beaches.
	Then you get a group of small beaches.
	A lot of them belong to towns.
	And there is a beach called, you see it there?
	Gilgo Beach.
	And it is smaller, but very, very cute.
	Very nice beach.
	And it also has, it also has A stand and a whole thing there to see things and to relax and to buy food.
	So, on the 13th of July, Howerman, if you want to look now, you'll see Howerman himself.
	He's a very, very large man, 6'5", 6'6".
	I don't know.
	I'm not great at weight, but it looks to me like about 350.
	That's six foot five of a human being and a big belly.
	He was an architectural consultant.
	He described his work as, and he had some good clients, some real clients, kind of like an expediter, which is a peculiar creature of New York City, where things are so damn bureaucratic in the city and state that you need to literally hire somebody to make sure that your project gets through.
	otherwise you won't get it through until the next millennia or something.
	He has a... that's him right there being arrested.
	Do you want to show some video of his arrest in Manhattan?
	And his office, Ted, his office is on.
	Do you want to tell people where his office is?
	His office is on.
	Yeah, of course, his office is at the corner of 36th and 5th Avenue in Midtown Manhattan.
	And it's right on 5th Avenue.
	It's literally two blocks away from the entrance to the Empire State Building.
	It's really in the heart of things.
	We went to look at it yesterday, rained a little yesterday when we took these pictures.
	But this will give you a sense of what it looks like.
	And he he's worked here for years.
	I'm going to say 30 years or so.
	and it is firm, I believe.
	Well, so that's, we've got very famous New York City arrest.
	This is going to turn out to be one that is shown over and over again about someone who, and I don't know if these people do it for this reason, who will enter the New York history books as one of the, you know, one of the really most vicious of our serial killers, of which we've had some.
	Now, this man, Howerman, lives not in New York City, but in one of the counties I just mentioned to you, Nassau County, which is beyond Brooklyn and Queens, the third county on the island, the fourth one is Suffolk, and that county is not part of New York City.
	It's its own independent county and is part of New York State.
	Now, if you look at the map that we have, that we've put here, You can see, Ted, do they have that up there now?
	And can they see it well?
	Yes.
	Now, if we start from the left of the map, which is the west, you'll see Manhattan.
	You'll see right below it, Brooklyn.
	And then you'll see Queens.
	Then you see JFK Airport.
	That's pretty much the boundary of New York and Nassau County, at JFK Airport.
	Now we're in Nassau County, okay?
	And right toward the end of Nassau County, in the southern tip, you see that black dot, and that's where Rex Howerman's home was on First Avenue in Massapequa Park, New York.
	That's where he lived.
	105, actually.
	First Avenue in Massapequa Park, New York.
	Now, if you take another look at the map, and you look right below it, you'll see another black dot, and that is where Gilgo Beach is.
	Now, that's Very close, right?
	As the crow flies.
	It's not really close as the car drives.
	In order to get there, you either have to go either back toward New York City, which would be to go west, or further out on Long Island to go east to get a bridge that will take you over onto The barrier island of Long Island, which is what Long Island is.
	For those of you who are in Florida, it's not very different than Miami and Palm Beach and Boca.
	There's a barrier island, and then there's the intercoastal, right?
	Well, here you can see there are bodies of water like the intercoastal, and the biggest one is right there between Harriman's home and Gilgo Beach, and that's called the Great South Bay, which in and of itself is quite a nice place to boat and to fish.
	It's just an inlet of this ocean, just not as active and not as... If you're prone to seasickness, you're much better off in the Great South Bay than going out in the North Atlantic.
	But that also means that Howerman, who lived in that house there, would have to drive Maybe a 20 or 30 minute drive to get to Gilgo Beach.
	Now, this is a picture of his wife, Asa Elaroup, and his daughter.
	And he has one other child.
	The third, the second child is a boy who has special needs.
	And now the wife, the wife will come into the picture a little bit later.
	Because you're going to find that one of the ways that they developed the case on him was, when they zeroed in on him, when they got the evidence about his car and they zeroed in on him, they started to look for things that would help them develop DNA.
	And they were able to extract from at or around his house, where he threw things out, some samples of hair.
	And the samples of hair of his wife, Asa Elleroop, who I showed you before, those samples match hair that is found in the burlap Surrounding the bodies of three of the four women that are the subject of this case.
	Now you'd say, well, the wife maybe is involved.
	The wife was away, strangely, at every time that he committed one of these murders.
	New Jersey, I've forgotten the other place, and Iceland.
	And I think that's pretty much been conclusively determined.
	If you look now, you'll see that's the home that he had in Massapequa.
	Now, this is the first odd thing about him.
	Massapequa is a community of very, very lovely, moderate-sized houses, some very big ones.
	They probably, I'm really guessing now, and way out of my league here, to do it, but I'm guessing they started about 500 grand, maybe 400, maybe 400 grand, and they go up to, well, over a million, depending on the size of the house.
	Not so much the location.
	The location's equally good, and the schools are good.
	The community also is exceptionally clean and neat.
	Even more so than other parts of Nassau County that might even be more prosperous.
	I don't know.
	But I grew up for part of my life on Nassau County.
	I know this community.
	I know the ones around it.
	This is particularly neat and clean.
	His house is disgusting.
	His house looks like a haunted house.
	His house was thought of as a haunted house.
	If you talk to the neighbors, a lot of the kids didn't go there on Halloween because they were afraid.
	That kind of stuff.
	And many people would say, somebody weird lives there.
	Amazing, right?
	And several neighbors that were there for many, many years said, you know, they couldn't understand why he kept it that way.
	I don't understand why he kept it that way.
	I mean, he had a business, it seemed like it was a functioning business, although he must have had money troubles because he engaged Over the last seven or eight years, in four or five phony lawsuits, in each case claiming he was hit by a car, and at least in one of them he collected about $70,000.
	So he must have been having some kind of money trouble.
	But the place looks awful.
	It looks like the place where somebody who kills people would live.
	And I believe They're gonna, like, rip up the whole place to see if he buried anybody there.
	Who knows, right?
	Chad, didn't they have equipment outside when we went and looked at it?
	They had a lot of equipment outside, people coming in and out of the property.
	It appears that they were, and we've since learned that they've taken over 200 guns from the property.
	They found, I don't know what they've done with them.
	I guess they found 92 guns, but then they found over 200.
	They found more and they found over 200 guns.
	Now, the interesting part of that is the women we're going to talk about were all killed by strangulation, not by a gun.
	However, when we get into the other six, that he is going to be investigated for because they believe there's a possible maximum of 10 murders that he committed.
	Uh, some of those were by gun and he had an extraordinary numbers of gun.
	I mean, 200 guns is a lot of guns and this is not, you know, the woods, this isn't, uh, you know, the Pennsylvania hunting country or, uh, There may be places in America where people have 200 guns.
	There aren't too many places in the New York metropolitan area where people have 200 guns.
	And he had some of them in a locker, but that might have been the original 92 that the police commissioner was talking about.
	Now it's expanded to 200.
	That's a lot of guns to have.
	We don't know yet.
	We don't have a breakdown yet of what kind of guns they were.
	But, I mean, that will tell us something, won't it?
	So, basically, this case, which goes back for a very, very long time, this case kind of started or got opened with with a missing young woman named Amber Gilbert.
	And it quickly, uh, not quickly for a while, almost a whole half, half a year to three quarters of a year went by.
	And then they finally started digging up the area and they found, uh, four women together on now, if we can go to Gilgo beach and we can go to the map there, Knocking that one down, but we'll get to that.
	Hold on, let me get this just right here.
	Here we are.
	There we are.
	So, if you can look at that map, and we'll go by the numbers, you see number one, two, three, and four.
	Okay.
	These are the four women involved in the present charge.
	Three of them, he's charged with their murder.
	One of them, he's named as the, he's named as the major witness.
	So, he is charged, he's charged, and those numbers are listed, I believe, in the order in which they were found?
	I think so.
	So you see that Melissa Barthelemy and Amberlynn Costello, and then he's charged with their murders.
	And he is also charged with the murder of Megan Waterman.
	He is not charged yet with the murder of Maureen Bernard Barnes, and I don't know what evidence is missing yet, but they are making it pretty clear that he will be charged.
	All four of those women were wrapped in burlap, and three of the four have hair that matches, on the burlap, that matches his wife.
	Maybe those are the three charged, and the other one, they're looking for additional evidence.
	Maureen Brennard Barnes.
	And then, if you look on the rest of the map, you'll see other indications of places where bodies were found.
	Those are ones for which he is suspected.
	And then there are two others, not on the map, that were in both Nassau and Suffolk County where he is suspected.
	So the total number that he would be suspected of is 10.
	Beyond that, you get into conspiracy theories and others.
	I mean, there are people who say he could be responsible for another three or four.
	I don't have any evidence, nor do the police have any evidence to suggest when that was or how that happened.
	Now, how did they get to these people?
	Why has it been going on for so long?
	Well, on May 1, 2010, or May 2, we've got both dates here, but I think it was May 1.
	A woman named Shannon Gilbert, who's not part of this group, made a call to the Suffolk Police and then ultimately to the, I guess it was the Suffolk Police, or maybe it was the Maybe it was the maybe it was the more local police, but ultimately it gets to the Suffolk police.
	And the call which we are going to put on our podcast, and it'll be available tomorrow for you to listen to the entire 911 call.
	Because the question of just what was going on is very important here.
	Shannon Gilbert calls up from a home in In a community called Oak Beach.
	Now, if you look at that map, I'll tell you where Oak Beach is.
	Could you put that up again, Ted, for me to see it?
	So, Oak Beach is... Oak Beach is going to be above basically where you see six and seven and it's across the water and it's on not necessarily it would be on the mainland so if you look basically where that picture is of Jane Doe that says four four I can't see the last part of it but the picture of Jane Doe
	That's where Oak Beach is.
	So it's a distance from this area, not far from six and seven, obviously, but far from the four young women who were picked up in that first discovery of bodies and all in the burlap.
	So Shannon Gilbert calls up at about four or five in the morning and she says that she needs help.
	It's a very difficult call for the 911 operator.
	She indicates that she needs help.
	She does indicate that she thinks she's going to be killed.
	The 9-1-1 phone is left on for about 30 minutes, so you hear some of the people in the background also speaking.
	Those people are her client.
	She had come out to Oak Beach, which is a private community in Suffolk County, because she had a client, a A prostitution client, because all of these young women were escorts, prostitutes, and they were on Craigslist, and at times suspended from Craigslist, and therefore on other lists.
	And they would be, they'd receive calls for sexual services for which they were paid.
	That was their business.
	They were variously described as escorts, sex workers, and prostitutes.
	But there are all different kinds of prostitutes, right?
	There are prostitutes in Las Vegas and at bars, and there are prostitutes that are on the street.
	And this would be, I think, best described, for you to understand, as escorts.
	People get called up, they arrange going to somebody's house and having sex with them.
	She did that with a gentleman that lived in Oak Beach.
	Although, she operated out of, on this particular occasion, New York City.
	And she had a driver with her who drove her there.
	His name is Mike Pack, and he figures in the 911 call, as does the client, sometimes known in the law enforcement business as the John.
	The guy who's paying for the services and receiving them is often described as the John.
	So, um, she makes these calls and, um, she ends up going, uh, eventually getting out of the house of her client.
	Some of it could be interpreted as he was trying to get her out of the house.
	Although she says that she's under threat of death, um, You don't hear anyone else threatening her.
	You do hear her screaming, but you don't get any indication of what she's screaming about.
	And she's never able to give the 911 operator an indication of where she is.
	The best she's able to do is to tell the 911 operators she's on Long Island.
	Which is very, very big.
	So you have two theories here.
	Her family has maintained, and there's a movie all about this called Lost Girls that's on Netflix, if you want to watch it.
	It's somewhat fictionalized, but it has enough of the facts so that you would get a pretty good idea of the competing theories here.
	Probably somewhat anti-police.
	Maybe justified, given the way this was conducted.
	Maybe not.
	But in any event, she was either running away from some danger that she never does describe on the 911 call, nor does she explain where she is.
	Ultimately, she runs from one house to another house.
	And that guy helps her get a good description into 9-1-1.
	And I think he even follows up with his own 9-1-1 call to make sure the cops come.
	But at this point, she's already run out of his house.
	And she tries to get into the house of another person, a woman, who won't let her in, but makes a 9-1-1 call for her and explains where she is.
	The family has complained that the police, you know, delayed in coming there.
	But the 9-1-1 people were put in a situation where, as you will see, they didn't have an address until toward the end of the conversations.
	And the conversations are very ambiguous.
	Yes, she could be under threat.
	Or the guy may be trying to throw her out, and the driver trying to get her in the car because she's under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
	Could be either.
	She has a history, she does have a history of mental illness, and she has a history of drugs.
	I don't know about alcohol.
	But that also, I mean, these things have to all come into play as you analyze this.
	Now, when they do the newspaper breakdown of this, it's rather misleading, because when they quote the 9-1-1 call of 32 minutes, the only thing they quote is, there is somebody after me.
	Somebody after me, please.
	Please get out of here, Mike, she says.
	I think that's talking to the, no, that's under the driver.
	And then at another point, she makes a reference to maybe twice that someone wants to do harm to her or kill her.
	Same time, you don't hear anyone doing that.
	You do hear her screaming, and you have this very, very confused conversation from her, which could come from the danger she's in, or it could come from alcohol Drugs or a mental illness in an episode arising from that.
	This leads, of course, ultimately to a case that's opened to try and find her, which leads to an attempt that summer to search the Gilgo Beach area to see if they can find her.
	And, uh, and they don't.
	They don't find her.
	They use a cadaver dog and, um, the dog is unsuccessful in finding anyone.
	And, um, and they go back in December, specifically December 11 of 2010.
	of 2010 and a police officer and a cadaver dog are going along that area
	If you go back to the map, they're walking through that area in the number one through four.
	And when they get to that area, I think the first one, as I said, well, yes, the first one is Melissa Bartholomew, which is number one.
	And the dog reacts.
	They bring over other instruments, and the instruments react, and lo and behold, there's a big burlap bag there, tightly wrapped, and inside are the remains of Melissa Bartholomew, or eventually, it didn't happen immediately, but within a short period of time, it was identified as Melissa.
	At the same time, Amberlynn Costello was found, as was Maureen Bernard Barnes and Megan Waterman.
	Now, here's what they shared in common, which is kind of a thing that happens very, very often in serial murder cases.
	With the exception, I think, of Megan Waterman, they were all Between 4'11 and 5'1, and they were all 100 pounds or less.
	And they all had, I think, hazel eyes, or hazel-like eyes.
	Megan Waterman was 5'5, a little bigger, and also had hazel eyes.
	And when we look at some of the others later, Uh, possibly in another podcast, uh, to follow up on this as those facts come out, some of the others fit that description.
	Small women, small, attractive, young women.
	Also, uh, in most cases, not all, uh, they were, uh, escorts and, um, It was during the course of a meeting for that purpose that they were killed.
	They went missing at different times.
	So this will give you an idea of about when the murders probably took place.
	Just the mere fact that they were found all in 2010, doesn't mean they were all killed in 2010, or in December of 2010.
	killed in 2010 or on December in December of 2010. Bartholomew was last seen on July 12 of 2009.
	So she was killed somewhere around that period of time and Maureen Bernard Barnes,
	who is the young woman for whom no charge has been filed yet, she went missing on July 9 of 2007.
	Quite a difference, right?
	A two-year difference between those two.
	And then, let's see, Megan Waterman, Megan Waterman, Those dates tell you the date they were discovered.
	See, they were all discovered within a very short period of time.
	Melissa on 12-11-2010, and the others on 12-13-12-13-12-13-2010.
	2010 and the others on 12 13 12 13 12 13 2010. But the date and time that they went missing
	as to each one was a different date. And as I said it went way back to 2007.
	Which which means that in the case of miss Brown.
	Barnes, it was quite some time that the body was there. And the others
	were more closer in time in terms of when they when they became missing.
	Now, a period of time went by.
	And then in the springtime, they went back.
	And in the springtime, they found a number of other bodies.
	And these bodies now we'd have to put in the category of still under investigation.
	You see them there.
	Jessica Taylor was originally found, a part of her body was originally found in Manorville, New York.
	Which is about 40 miles away and to the northeast of the island, kind of toward the middle of Nassau County.
	But as I said, about 40 miles away.
	Parts of her body were found in Manorville on July 26th of 2003.
	And then additional remains were found right there on the Ocean Parkway On March 29 of 2011, when they went back and started searching in the spring, and you can see that an Asian male was found on April 4, 2011, not identified yet as to name, although he appears to have been a cross-dresser or a transsexual.
	Uh, because he had, uh, I guess he had some, there was some women's attire with, with him, or, um, I don't know exactly how they came to that conclusion, but they, um, they described him as, um, having those clothes with him.
	And, um, And then you have Jane Doe, who I think is also Asian.
	You see that her there, if we have the map up again, has six.
	And you see the female toddler, who is the child of another, not on this map, another person who was killed and buried partially in Nassau, partially in Suffolk County, who's on the list of people that he is suspected, he being Harriman, of killing.
	This all started, right, with Shannon Gilbert.
	And Shannon was found, as I said, up in that area where Jane Doe's picture is.
	Not where Jane Doe is, but where Jane Doe's picture is.
	And she was not in a burlap bag.
	There's a dispute as to the cause of her death.
	The medical examiner says it was drowning.
	The private examination done by Michael Bodden, who I think you probably know, right, says that it wasn't drowning, or it's not definitive, I should say, that it was drowning, and that it was some kind of possible strangulation.
	So you have a dispute as to that.
	And given the fact that she's not in the vicinity of these people, it wasn't treated in the same way, and there's no way at this point there's anything that connects her to Howerman.
	She is not on the list of people that he killed.
	There's a question as to whether she was killed or she died there having run away because she was panicked, or she ran away because she was under real threat.
	We don't know the answer to that yet, and I'm not going to answer it until we know.
	There are an awful lot of people who think they have the answer to it.
	At this point, they do not have the answer to it.
	Ted, when we went out there and when we looked at the land, the highway, what's the impression that you had about how they were... I mean, it seems like there are two things the press has done that create a wrong impression in this case.
	Number one, they weren't buried.
	They weren't buried on the beach.
	This is not the beach.
	Have we shown them some pictures of the highway?
	We're going to now.
	They were buried on the... A little more this way.
	A little back that way.
	Yeah, depending on how exact it is.
	Be careful.
	I don't know how exact it is.
	Here, this would be perfect.
	I don't know if I can catch it on my camera here, but there are bugs everywhere.
	So I don't want to get too much.
	Here.
	Apparently this is a swampland.
	These four bodies were not found.
	These four bodies were not found on a beach.
	They were not buried on a beach, as is often said.
	They were wrapped in burlap and deposited in brush anywhere from 10 to 20 to 30 feet from the area where people can run.
	So you have, if you look at it carefully, you have four lanes of highway, two going in one direction, two going in another.
	You then have a barrier, and then beyond the barrier is a running track, but a long running, it must go 30 miles of running.
	And then beyond that you have grass, and then beyond that you have a tremendous amount of, what would you call it, uh brush it's very it's very green and very thick and very thick very thick very deep and and um allegedly uh howerman or if someone helped them they took the bodies that were wrapped tightly in the burlap and they went into that area and deposited the body bodies below all of the all of the um
	All of the plants and bushes and everything else that's there.
	And I assume that it's somewhat marshy, the area.
	We didn't get quite that far in, but the marsh is just a little bit beyond it.
	So, that's where the bodies were put.
	Which leads me to the following conclusion.
	Which the police, please go back and forth on whether he's accountable or he's a serious suspect for the other four or five that you see there or not.
	Very hard to believe that somebody else would pick exactly that method and that place to do it.
	To deposit people on the side of the road under the brush.
	So unless he shared this with someone else, I would say that the people that you find, we can call them buried, they're more hidden on the side of the running path.
	He's got to be the most likely suspect for those.
	Now, I'm not going to go through all the rest of them because they piled in an awful lot of other murders that took place in Suffolk County.
	Uh, in different places, and it could turn out that this is not the only place he was depositing bodies, and it could turn out that Suffolk County is not the only place he was killing people.
	You just don't know until you investigate it all.
	But in any event, from what you have right now, these other bodies that are in other places, you can't really link them To Hauerman, certainly for the purpose of charging him, or for the purpose of making him a suspect at this point.
	It may turn out that he's responsible for the entire Gilgo Beach group of bodies, and then others, and many others, we don't know, or none others.
	Right now, they got him held pretty tight.
	on three murders and I think another one that's coming up pretty quickly for Ms.
	Barnes.
	So let's take a short break now and we'll be right back.
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	Thank you.
	Thank you very much for returning, and let me conclude this podcast part of it with just one fact that's rather interesting in terms of the number of murders that he'd be responsible for.
	Obviously, this is not gospel, but it gives you at least something to shoot for.
	I'm gonna shoot for, right?
	A woman, a woman named Dominique Vidal who is an architect, a man who was a great architect.
	Oh Met with him, and I guess has had casual chats with him, and was at a meeting with Rex Hauermann.
	And during the meeting, or I guess after the meeting was over, they went to a bar in Manhattan.
	And there had been a meeting of a networking group that they both belonged to.
	And Howerman asked her if she liked podcasts, and she replied that she did.
	And he wanted to know if she had a favorite case, did she like true crime podcasts, and did she have a favorite case?
	And she said she didn't.
	And he said that, um, he said, uh, he, he asked her if she knew about the Gilgo murders.
	And she said, Oh yeah, of course I know.
	And he goes on to say, yeah, that's a serial killer that was never caught in my hometown, my neighborhood where I live.
	The guy killed like 10 people that might still be out there.
	And he said it like a joke, she says.
	And she says, um, yeah, you never know who you're talking to.
	Anybody could be a serial killer.
	No, he says this.
	He says, yeah, you never know who you're talking to.
	Anybody could be a serial killer.
	I could be a serial killer.
	And he laughed at that.
	And she says, quote, I just can't stop running that conversation over and over in my mind, and I'm really disturbed.
	Because it turns out, it looks like he is a serial killer.
	But it's interesting that he put the number 10 on the conversation, when he had the conversation with Dominique Vidal.
	And that's pretty much That's pretty much what the police and the FBI think, that it's about 10, or that it is 10.
	So they've got four of them accounted, well three accounted for in terms of an indictment, one in terms of a pretty, I think pretty close to one.
	The others are going to be a little tougher.
	They really, the facts are a little bit different.
	The facts are all over the place.
	I think the fact that they all end up in one place and it is hard to believe that any other person would use that place unless he has an accomplice, um, will help in rounding that up a little bit.
	Vidal said that she left the networking group partly because he gave her very bad vibes.
	And she's quoted as saying, he was a weirdo and I didn't want to be around that.
	He left a huge impression on me of being a very odd, unwelcoming person.
	And then he's he left her an email previously saying, hi, this is Rex.
	I actually heard you were no longer part of the group.
	I still wanted to talk to you.
	I had a question for you.
	And I also wanted to touch base.
	If you get an opportunity, you can always try me at the office or feel free to use my cell.
	Hope you're doing good.
	I hope to talk to you soon.
	Thanks.
	Woah!
	Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah.
	Man.
	I gotta say... This has gotta... Gotta have some bad dreams about this one.
	But it is very helpful that she's able to give us a number.
	Because it gives us a number that is, um... That, um...
	Kind of corroborates the police view from the evidence they have, which is not, as I said, conclusive, that it's about 10.
	And that does not include the Shannon Gilbert murder, which they have not included in that group because of the strange circumstances of it.
	So, I don't want you to leave with the impression that this is it.
	There's a lot more to this case, like the original police commissioner here, Burke, and the district attorney, Spoda, who handled this case are both now in jail.
	And the main situation incurred there is one involving a guy that was beaten up by the police commissioner because the guy got his hands on the police commissioner's porn.
	Um, we don't know the nature of it.
	There are lots of allegations running around that there was some kind of organized, um, prostitution thing going on in that area, if not in that community.
	And that the, um, and that the commissioner was covering that up, was trying to cover that up.
	Uh, we'll look at, we'll look at all of that.
	And we've actually, I've gone and dug up lots of prior reports on this, both reporting and reports, and we'll know more about it tomorrow and the next day.
	So if you follow us here at any one of the social outlets, whether it's Twitter or Facebook or YouTube or Twitch or Getter or, uh, is that it, Ted?
	YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Getter, Rumble.
	Rumble!
	I forgot Rumble, excuse me.
	Twitch.
	And Twitch, Twitch, and Twitch.
	So, We have any calls or do you guys want to ask me questions about this?
	Well, of course, we visit these spots and will investigators now comb through this gentleman's past and fill in where he's been in these times we haven't talked about between obviously up until today and 2007.
	Well, there's no way to know at this point, you know, is this I mean, this could be it.
	I doubt it.
	I doubt it.
	I mean, I'd say it's almost definite that a serial killer like this, and remember these murders probably go back to the murders we know about, that we attribute to him, there's one in 2007, and then the others take place in 2010.
	Spaced out pretty well.
	Yeah, spaced out pretty well.
	Barnes is the earliest one, and then the others are kind of spaced out over a period.
	We also didn't have a chance to play for you, and we will on our next Show will play for you the videotape that exists that shows one of the young women, Megan Waterman, checking in at a Holiday Inn, which was about 20 miles from the place where her body is lying now.
	And that is a picture of her on the last day of her life.
	And after that, If Howerman is the guy who killed her, he met with her and killed her.
	But remember, these murders took place between 2007 and 2010.
	One in 2007, three in 2010.
	The other ones that they're looking at, I think are all earlier.
	They're in earlier periods of time.
	And that, of course, is typical of a Of a serial killer, like in 2010, he's got three that we know of.
	But, you know, the last group was back in 2005, 2006, 2007.
	Now, is there a group that we don't know about in 2013 or 14?
	2007. Now is there a group that we don't know about in 2013 or 14? That is all
	subject to investigation.
	Well Mayor, we want to thank everyone for joining us for another exciting
	episode of Rudy's Common Sense.
	What we'll do is edit and we'll work out the podcast that way.
	OK, great.
	Well, of course.
	So, Mayor, we are in not podcast time, not regular time.
	We're in Soccer time.
	We're in soccer time where you can say anything you want.
	Soccer time has less restrictions.
	There's four murders in Atlantic City we'll want to check out.
	Four women found down there, and we'll have to check into the details.
	But now people are... And I bring that up because, of course, the question is now, has this man been doing anything else between 2010 and 2023?
	I could even go back earlier.
	I mean, the guy guy got out of high school in the 80s.
	He was a classmate of one of the Baldwin brothers, not not Alex, but Billy, I think Billy Ball.
	Yeah, Billy Baldwin, who says he was not he, I think his description or maybe one other classmate, he kind of flew under the under the radar.
	There was another guy who described him as creepy in high school.
	Um, his neighbors had various descriptions of who knew him,
	except a great deal of criticism for the condition of his house. I mean, almost, you know, when
	I see people, when I see houses like that, the first thing I think about are mentally ill or
	strange people.
	Well, Mayor, I have an actual update for this case that just developed while you were speaking.
	Now they actually have found approximately 300 guns in his home.
	We went up to 200 when we started?
	Yeah, now it's 300.
	And the prosecutor is saying they have strong evidence that they can charge him with three of the murders so far.
	Well, that we have.
	Yeah, that we have, yeah.
	But that's 300 guns now.
	And it's still not even midnight yet, so who knows what else.
	Any indication of what kind of guns?
	No, it just says approximately 300 guns.
	I don't know why you need 300 guns.
	No legal gun owner needs 300 guns, in my opinion.
	Could he be an illegal dealer?
	Perhaps, perhaps.
	I mean, well, for people listening, they also have to understand that the gun laws in New York State and New York City are significantly different.
	You can walk into a Walmart in New York State and buy a rifle or a shotgun, but in New York City, you need a permit.
	And there's a long waiting period to get that permit in New York City.
	What about NASA in Suffolk?
	That's state, so I think it's the same.
	Yeah, it's the same as New York State.
	They don't have additional restrictions a little tighter than the rest of the state?
	New York State, I think, not handguns, I'm just talking with rifles and shotguns.
	No, I mean, I can understand that about upstate New York, which is really like Pennsylvania.
	Right.
	And there's a lot of hunting in upstate New York.
	But I wondered about the suburban counties, if they had stricter gun laws than the rural counties.
	I will look into that, but... You don't think so?
	I don't think so.
	Well, they're certainly not as tight as New York City, I know that.
	Absolutely not.
	I mean, I had to wait three years for my shotgun permit, and I'm in law enforcement.
	Yeah, well, New York City actually violates the Second Amendment.
	That's right.
	It just decides it's not going to let you have a gun.
	I mean, one of these days, a definitive case will knock it all down like they did in the District of Columbia.
	Right.
	But I mean, they harass gun owners and try to make it very, very difficult for people to have guns, which given the fact that they don't protect anybody anymore, is a hard one to argue.
	When I was the mayor, at least I could say I had murdered down by record numbers.
	And the police were there to protect you.
	And now our police are down.
	By who knows how many we were down about 33,000 from 41,000.
	We, uh, nobody talks about it, but we, we had a defunding of a billion dollars that Adams has never made up for.
	And, um, in many cases, please don't enforce the law.
	There was a, uh, there was a, uh, a situation that the other day with an older woman and they were throwing things at her.
	And, uh, she asked the police problem.
	They didn't help her shame.
	So, I don't know if it's the demoralization.
	Well, I don't know if they're told they're not supposed to arrest people who do retail thefts, but nobody gets arrested for retail theft.
	Well, Mayor, you're in luck, because Wednesday we're going to have a friend of ours, Joe Impatrice, who runs Blue Lives Matter, come on your show and discuss the current state of the NYPD.
	He's a sergeant in the NYPD, and he's going to come on.
	That would be excellent.
	He's really looking forward to it, and he's really looking to fill you in on the status of the NYPD at this time.
	In many cases, I mean, people blame the police.
	Like, they'll see a retail theft taking place and the cops are just watching it.
	They may have been ordered to do that.
	So I blame a lot of this on 2020.
	I think in 2020, the police were held back.
	All the criminals saw, you can go in a store and you can get your television.
	You don't have to pay for it.
	You can just walk in and walk out with it.
	And I don't know, people walking out with thousands of televisions.
	I don't know how the death of Floyd entitles you to steal a television.
	Reparations.
	Like hell, reparations.
	It's theft.
	And these aren't like poor people.
	Then they start in, these people are poor.
	Poor people don't steal televisions.
	They steal sandwiches.
	Right.
	I didn't see one sandwich being stolen.
	AOC said that if a person of color steals a loaf of bread, it's because they're oppressed.
	So I don't know what that means.
	I haven't seen, I haven't had a loaf of bread case.
	Me neither.
	I've never seen a loaf of bread stolen.
	I've never seen a loaf of bread case in New York.
	I don't know.
	Maybe, maybe nobody arrests for it or nobody does it, but they always seem to be high ticket items that can be resold.
	Well, Mayor, I actually have the current Mayor Adams, a good friend there, on video stating that New York City is the safest place in the world right now.
	But meanwhile, today, in the middle of rush hour, a 37-year-old man was stabbed in the neck right in your backyard on 86th and Lexington in the subway.
	It's real sickening.
	No, I didn't have the time today on my radio show, but I usually go through the crimes in New York.
	This happened in roughly 530.
	But over the weekend, there were a large number of crimes.
	Oh, yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	Shootings and everything.
	That's right.
	Yeah.
	And then he says that it's the press.
	Yeah, it's the press.
	It's the people think they're afraid of crime because the newspapers report.
	But I mean, I think what he means to say, somebody has to really sit him down and teach him.
	How to communicate.
	You should have a seminar with him and teach him how to run the city.
	I think he might fail it.
	Maybe he has to ask God first.
	If I gave him a test, he tells me he asked God, I would fail.
	On earth, the work of God is truly our own.
	I mean, that's what John Kennedy said.
	That's right.
	Yeah.
	I mean, it's not God.
	Well, in any event, we're in pretty bad shape here.
	Well, yes, Mayor.
	What is your closing message to your viewers and listeners tonight?
	I'm sorry we didn't cover other subjects.
	I would like to have done that.
	We will tomorrow, because this is a big week, particularly with the witnesses showing up on the witness stand.
	At least two whistleblowers, one we know and one we don't know.
	And the one we don't know, we've heard some of his testimony, and it corroborates the one that we do know, who pretty much makes out a pretty darn good perjury case against the Attorney General, and a cover-up case against all of them.
	I mean, I don't even know why you need witnesses.
	It's obvious they're covering up, isn't it?
	Don't be stupid not to have figured this out.
	First of all, this idiot, Communist Raskin, said that the case is no better than the one Giuliani brought forward in 2018.
	Hey, dummy, it is the case that I brought forward in 2018, and they covered it up!
	It's the same case!
	No secrets here!
	The case has been on Hannity, it's been written about by John Solomon in articles in which he did his own independent reporting, and it's the subject of my first 10 podcasts.
	I don't lie like you do.
	My witnesses testify on my podcasts.
	Just like a trial.
	So I'm not telling you my opinion, I'm telling you what they say.
	That Joe took a major bribe from Zlochevsky in order to fix things for Zlochevsky's company, which he ended up doing when he got Shokin, the prosecutor, fired.
	Nobody's talked to Shokin but me.
	I have him on tape.
	These cases, you gotta get used to this, Raskin.
	I'm it, babes.
	I'm the one who brought these out.
	Nobody else did.
	Nobody else brought out the evidence of these bribes.
	The one guy that tried, the U.S.
	attorney wouldn't take the case and he started investigating.
	He didn't go public with it.
	I did.
	Just me.
	Me.
	Which is why you're trying to get me disbarred.
	Which is why you want to try to get me indicted.
	You don't think I know what you're doing?
	You don't think I know how crooked you all are?
	Everything I have said has turned out to be true.
	Including all you creepy crooks, including your 51 disgraceful intelligence officers, accused me of being a Russian agent, as well as the nitwit in the White House who did it at a debate using my name.
	It has been definitively proven that I was not.
	The Times finally conceded that after 16 months.
	So, okay, let's take a key point like that, Russian agent.
	Who are the liars?
	All the Democrats.
	Who is telling the truth?
	Me.
	We could do that on five things.
	And the ones that haven't been resolved yet, same thing's gonna happen.
	They are incredibly corrupt.
	And it has to be brought to a head.
	And I think that the testimony from these whistleblowers will be a step in that direction.
	But don't expect too much.
	Because if these guys make one mistake, if they have one issue, and even if they don't, they'll make it up.
	This just has to be repeated, repeated, repeated.
	We almost have to win over one American at a time.
	And they will be there telling you bullshit all throughout.
	The reason is, if it opens up, a lot of them are going to go down.
	Not just the Biden crime family.
	They're down already, except because we're a crooked government, they're covered up.
	It's going to stop.
	It's going to change.
	I also wanted to comment on Trump's A speech the other day, and the campaign, and we'll do all that tomorrow and the next day.
	So, podcasts can be gotten at RudyGiulianiCS.com.
	You go there, RudyGiulianiCS.com, hit subscribe, you'll get that podcast, and you can go back and see the earlier ones that obviously Raskin hasn't listened to.
	And second, I'll be on WABCRadio.com tomorrow.
	And we'll be furthering a lot of this and other things and then we'll be back tomorrow night.
	Who knows how much more we'll have.
	The guns may be up to thousands by then.
	Thank you and have a wonderful evening and God bless America.
	Our purpose to bring to bear the principle of common sense and rational discussion to the issues of our day.
	America was created at a time of great turmoil, tremendous disagreements, anger, hatred.
	There was a book written in 1776 that guided much of the discipline of thinking that brought to us the discovery of our freedoms, of our God-given freedoms.
	It was Thomas Paine's Common Sense, written in 1776, one of the first American bestsellers, in which Thomas Paine explained, by rational principles, the reason why these small colonies felt the necessity to separate from the Kingdom of Great Britain and the King of England.
	He explained their inherent desire for liberty, for freedom, freedom of religion, freedom
	of speech, the ability to select the people who govern them.
	And he explained it in ways that were understandable to all the people, not just the elite.
	Because the desire for freedom is universal.
	The desire for freedom adheres in the human mind and it is part of the human soul.
	This is exactly the time we should consult our history.
	Look at what we've done in the past.
	And see if we can't use it to help us now.
	We understand that our founders created the greatest country in the history of the world.
	The greatest democracy, the freest country.
	A country that has taken more people out of poverty than any country ever.
	All of us are so fortunate to be Americans.
	But a great deal of the reason for America's constant ability to self-improve is because we're able to reason.
	We're able to talk.
	We're able to analyze.

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