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Sept. 22, 2021 - Rudy Giuliani
47:53
The Anatomy of a Murder, The Gabby Petito Case | Rudy Giuliani | Ep. 172
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This is Rudy Giuliani back with another episode of Rudy's Common Sense.
This episode is going to concern a case that has become nationally and internationally important and well-known.
In fact, I guess you would say it's gone viral, and for good reason.
It's a case of human drama That all of us fears parents have nightmares over this kind of thing happening.
Young women have nightmares over being taken and being taken away.
And men have nightmares over being falsely charged.
And in the society that we presently have, this case seems to sum up a lot of the fears and the problems and the issues that we have.
Also, it involves a very lovely young lady and a story that could be a Hollywood movie, unfortunately and tragically, it's not.
It's reality.
And it's reality of the worst kind.
So let's go over it because there's a lot that we can learn from this.
There's still a lot to be investigated and decided.
So I'll take you through where we are and then where I think we're going to end up to the best that I can.
Now, this comes from a lot of experience investigating cases like this.
And all during this, I've paid a lot of attention to it and had a lot of intuitions and a lot of, I'd even say criticism, the way in which this was handled.
As you can see, if you go to my Twitter or Getter or any of those other social media sites or in fact Rudy's alert yesterday or the day before yesterday I put out an alert describing what I thought was the failure to really pay attention to the 9-1-1 call and the whole inexplicable
Way in which it was discovered so much later.
But the best way to do this is to go through, try to go through it as it happened and then see what we can take out of it.
Both from the point of view of where it's going to end up and how maybe in the future it could be done better.
The two people involved are 22 and 23.
Gabrielle Petito is a 22-year-old young woman and her boyfriend, Brian Landry, I believe is 23 years old.
They met a couple of years ago in New York, actually in Long Island, New York, in high school.
Apparently they fell in love and at some point they were engaged.
I believe that was in 2020.
For a good portion of the last two years, she's lived together with him in his parents' home in Florida.
And according to her mom, whose name is Nicole Schmidt, they broke off their engagement sometime before this trip.
Basically on the understanding that they were too young for such a serious relationship, but they remained close to each other and they were very much looking forward to this trip, which began on July 2nd of this year and was to end on Halloween in Portland, Oregon, where they were going to meet a friend or friends.
But in the meantime, they were going to travel Across America.
She uses social media.
I believe she's on YouTube, if I'm not mistaken.
And she does a lot of blogging and description of what she's doing and where she's going and what she's seeing.
So this trip started out from, I believe it is Blue Point, New York.
And from Blue Point, New York, She traveled with him in a, it was a white van.
Hers, by the way, she owned it.
And it started off to what looked to be a really pleasant trip.
There's a map that we'll put up on the screen now.
It's a pretty simple map that shows that they left New York on July 2nd.
You don't see very much until you go out to the middle of the country and then beyond and you see three states there, Utah, Wyoming, and Colorado.
And the number two entry is in Utah.
And then there's a list you'll see of places they visited.
These are basically taken from the things that she put on social media, showing pictures of what they were doing there.
So we see on July 5th, Monument Rocks.
July 8th, they're in Colorado, Colorado Springs.
July 10th, the Grand Sand Dunes National Park.
July 16, Zion National Park.
And we'll show you now a picture of the two of them, Gabby Petito and Brian Landry, in Zion National Park on July 18.
And the credit is Instagram.
So this was posted on Instagram.
And it looks like two big smiles.
Happy couple.
Having a very interesting trip in a very beautiful part of America.
Basically, all of these are documented by similar kinds of postings on social media.
After Zion National Park, they go to Cedar Breaks, Then to Bryce Canyon National Park.
By the 26th of July, they're in Mystic Hot Springs.
And then on the 30th, they're in Canyonlands National Park.
So this is a very, very complete, quick, fast trip.
There seems to be a break of about 12, 13 days in postings at least.
There seems to be, but we don't have the whole account.
The account has been obviously taken down and obviously is being examined very carefully.
This is what I believe it was U.S.
News & World Report could glean from it before it was taken down.
So the first really significant thing here that points to something going seriously wrong is on August 12th of this year.
And on August 12th, they're in the area of Arches National Park.
And there is a description of a fight going on between the two of them.
Now, there are several different descriptions of it.
When it was first revealed, it was revealed that there was a call that they were fighting, apparently quite loudly.
Concerned observers called the police.
The police showed up, spent a great deal of time with them, You can see, I think, video of that.
It's almost a one-hour video of her and Brian being questioned.
And the end result of that, at least as originally described, was that it was more of an emotional mental health issue, according to the police, than it was an issue of assault.
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From what they gathered at that interview was that he had been arguing with Ursha.
She had been arguing with him.
It was something about whether he wanted her still to be in the car.
And she came back into the car and she hit him.
And according to the police, there was no evidence that he hit her.
That's the way it stayed for some time.
Just toward the very end of the investigation, it was revealed, and this is very, very strange
that this wasn't revealed much, much earlier.
It was revealed that there was a very significant 911 call that was placed on the 12th by a
gentleman whose name is being withheld for obvious reasons.
And the gentleman called On the 12th, and he said, let me read it as accurately as it was said, and then we're going to play it for you.
He described himself as being on the corner of Main Street and Moonflower, and he said, I'd like to report a domestic dispute.
This is a 49 second recording.
He says, the gentleman was slapping the girl.
They ran up and down the sidewalk.
He proceeded to hit her, and then they drove off.
Hi, can you hear me, sir?
Yeah, I can hear you.
Hi, I'm calling, I'm right on the corner of Main Street by Moonflower, and we're driving by, and I'd like to report a domestic dispute.
Florida with a white van, Florida license plate, white van, Where to that?
They just drove off.
They're going down Main Street.
They made a right onto Main Street from Moonflower.
What were they doing?
What'd you say?
What were they doing?
We drove by and the gentleman was slapping the girl.
He was slapping her?
Yes, and then we stopped.
They ran up and down the sidewalk.
He proceeded to hit her, hopped in the car, and they drove off.
Okay, you said it's a white van?
Wait then, I give you the license plate, just give me one sec.
I took a picture of it.
And this was described to the 911 operators at the Moab, M-O-A-B, police department.
And as I said, it was only revealed I'd say three, four days ago, right?
I'd say a day or two before her body was found.
And it puts an altogether different light on everything that was done up until that point.
Because all of a sudden, there's a witness to an assault.
And then when you look at the video of her, It does appear as if she is a typical, I hate to say typical, but true, she seems like a typical victim of domestic violence.
I've seen a lot of these cases.
I remember studying them very, very carefully when I got very interested in it with the report Behind Closed Doors and instituted a whole new domestic violence policy in the New York City Police Department in 1994.
Devoted a great deal of time to it.
One of the things that troubled me when I first saw her, and let's play a little bit of what she's going to say, but let me tell you this first.
Whenever there's a domestic violence call, police are trained, now don't take this wrong now, not to necessarily believe the woman.
They're trained that there's a psychological pathology, Where the woman is being beaten.
She calls the police.
By the time the police arrive, she's changed her mind for a whole host of reasons, none of them good.
What's she going to do without him?
What will the consequences be to her when he gets out?
She needs him for support.
She thinks she does.
She thinks she's dependent on him psychologically.
She believes she caused the hitting?
Oh, I could give you so many other reasons.
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It's the reason why we changed the policy in the New York City Police Department,
because we had incidents where the police would come in, There'd be a domestic dispute.
A woman would have called, actually, for help.
And by the time the police officer got there, she was on the side of the...
of the aggressor of the criminal and wouldn't file a complaint.
So we kept our own records of it so that we could file our own complaints.
And we increased the number of arrests dramatically and brought down the amount of domestic violence dramatically.
Also by having shelters and places where these women could go so that they're not at the mercy of this animal.
Once you hear the 911 call, then you listen to her.
You can see a battered woman.
A frightened woman.
You can see it.
You want to tell me what's going on?
Yeah, I don't know.
It's just... Some days... I have really bad OCD and I just... I was just cleaning and straightening up the back of the van before and I was apologizing to him and saying, I'm sorry that I'm so mean because sometimes I have OCD and sometimes I just get really frustrated.
I'm not, like, mean towards him.
I just, like... I guess...
I'm sorry if I'm in a bad mood.
I'm just really stressed.
I had so much work.
I was doing my computer this morning.
What do you do for a living?
Well, I used to work at an organic juice bar, but I just quit my job.
I was a nutritionist.
That was my job.
I just quit my job to travel across the country, and I'm trying to start a blog.
I just have a lot of stuff, so I've been building my website, so I've just been really stressed.
He doesn't really believe that I could do any of it, so that's kind of been like a... I don't know, he's like... I don't know, we've just been fighting all morning, and he wouldn't let me in the car before.
Why wouldn't he let you in the car?
Because of your OCD?
He told me I needed to calm down.
Yeah.
But I'm perfectly calm, calm all the time, and he really stresses me out, and I just...
This is a drug mine.
Well, why'd you hit him?
Stopped him first.
Saw his face.
How many times did you see his face?
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And then what?
His reaction was to do what?
He's gonna be out of Florida.
Did he hit you?
No, I mean, it's okay if you're saying he hit you.
I understand if he hit you, but we want to know the truth.
Did he actually hit you?
Because, you know, where did he hit you?
Don't worry.
Be honest.
Did he slap you in the face or what?
Yeah.
Go ahead.
Okay.
So, has he been drinking?
What was up with his driving?
I thought you said he hit a curb.
While you were driving?
While he was driving you were hitting him?
Did you already tell him all this?
I didn't get that far into it.
She was hyperventilating a little bit.
She's saying that they don't drink, but at the point when you lit them up... They don't drink or anything.
She started hitting them.
I was yelling at them, and then when you said no, I said, I like, kind of punched an arm, like, through the... She's saying it was like, hit the curb.
So, quick question.
You said you were hitting him in the arm.
Did you grab the steering wheel?
No, I didn't.
You did not touch the steering wheel?
I didn't touch the steering wheel, but only for like a second because I just saw the lights come on and it was more just like, you're an idiot.
Like, you know.
But did you grab the steering wheel and like swerve or anything like that?
No, no, no.
I didn't touch the steering wheel at all.
I'm going to wait.
This is a very, very important question.
I How you answer this question is going to determine what happens next.
But the only person who can answer this question is you.
Think very hard before you answer the question.
Do not quickly answer.
Think very hard.
When you slapped him those times, Were you attempting to cause him physical pain or physical impairment?
Was that what you were attempting to do to him?
No.
What were you attempting to do?
What was the reason behind the slapping and stuff?
What was it you were attempting to accomplish by slapping him?
I was trying to get him to stop telling me something.
Now there were people, to their credit, who long before the 911 call was revealed, Or on television and radio and interpreting it that way.
And what I said about it is you have to look at it 50-50.
You have to have both hypotheses.
One, she's telling the truth, she hit him.
Two, nope, she's covering for him, he hit her.
In any event, they didn't have that information.
And then there's another gap.
Remember, we had all those We had all those postings, and so now we go from the 12th of August to the 24th of August, and she is seen leaving a hotel in Salt Lake City, Utah, with him, and that is the last time she is seen.
Either that day or the next day is the last time she FaceTimes with her mother, so that her mother can be sure that it's her.
There are several texts after that, 26th, 27th, and there's one on the 30th, but Nicole Schmidt does not believe that all of them came from Her daughter, because in one case, she refers to her grandfather as Stan, and according to the mother, she never did that.
So, these have to be questioned.
I'm going to skip one fact here, so that we get to the end, then we'll just go back.
Because there's one other critical fact.
On September 1st, I believe, on September 1st, he returns to Florida with her van.
And he goes to his parents' house.
He gets a lawyer, talks to the lawyer.
They make a decision to have him Rely on his Fifth Amendment right of self-incrimination and not say anything?
Beyond that, they make a decision not to give any help at all, of any kind, to trying to find Gabby, even though family members of the family had professed loving her and considering her like a daughter.
Well, on September 1st and 2nd and 3rd and 4th, As far as we know, she's missing.
We'd have to say she might still be alive.
There might be a chance to find her or save her.
And it isn't that he just takes the Fifth Amendment.
He gives no help.
Not the last place I saw her.
Not any one of the family coming forward and saying, we had contact with her.
We have an idea of where she is.
Instead, he decides he's going to go on a trip.
And he leaves.
And the parents don't really report that for three days.
That's a lot of lead time.
You've watched movies like this, right?
That's a lot of lead time.
Very suspicious.
Taking the Fifth Amendment is an absolute legal right.
What he did, and what they did, is morally reprehensible.
I've come to the conclusion that they're not very good people.
Here's a girl missing.
The parents are ripped apart.
People who love her are ripped apart, and an entire nation is ripped apart over this.
And they shut up, say nothing.
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Every right to do it.
You have every right to say it was morally reprehensible.
The Fifth Amendment is a legal right.
The Fifth Amendment doesn't make you correct.
I've been troubled by the fact, without the new facts that we learned late in the investigation, the new facts being the call on the 12th Being a call about his slapping her and hitting her.
We didn't know that originally.
And there was enough immediately to hold him as a material witness.
Why that statute was ignored, somebody has to explain to me.
The FBI was involved in this case.
They were involved in this case because this crossed state lines.
They were involved in this case because they're supposed to have superior expertise and resources than the North Port Police or the Moab Police or the... Well, here's the statute.
I used it often, particularly in mafia cases.
It was called release or detention of a material witness.
I can't think of a more material witness in a case of a missing girl than the person she left with was seen with her the last time we saw her and comes back without her!
I didn't say he committed a crime.
I said he obviously knows something about her, which makes him, oh, not just a material witness.
How about the only witness?
Only witness.
That's it.
And it says, if it appears from an affidavit filed by a party that the testimony of a person is material in a criminal proceeding, And if it has shown that it may become impractical to secure the presence of the person by subpoena, well, that sure happened because he ran away.
A judicial officer may order the arrest of the person and treat the person in accordance with the provisions of section 3142 of this title.
Section 3142 of this title is exactly the provisions that you use when you arrest a criminal.
All those provisions are available.
So you could have grabbed this guy, brought him before a federal judge, Filed an affidavit.
Like a little work.
File an affidavit.
And he is surely a material witness.
The judge then has a choice.
Judge can put him in jail.
The judge can set bail.
And the judge maybe could compromise with the government and the government would want like an ankle bracelet or a wrist bracelet on him.
So you keep track of your material witness.
I emphasize again.
He's the only witness.
This is very, very harsh.
But a girl lost her life here.
We don't want it to happen again.
It's impossible for me to understand how this wasn't used.
Impossible.
Somebody was sleeping for days.
I don't know what I'm missing.
There's a material witness provision.
A material witness is a witness who has significant information.
There is no other witness that we have to this.
The one witness we have is the man who took her away on the 2nd.
Even if you don't have the 911 call, you do have a dispute that went on on the 12th.
You have them seen together for the last time on the 24th, and all of a sudden he returns with her van.
Gosh, I think I just wrote that material witness affidavit.
You can go further than that if you want.
You can make him a suspect.
That's all circumstantial evidence.
You know, to be a suspect doesn't mean I have to prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
It means there has to be a probable cause that you committed the crime.
But you didn't have to make him a suspect.
You could make him a material witness.
It might keep him a little cooler.
It might keep the family a little cooler.
Might have been a smarter way to play it.
It was not smart not to put him under surveillance.
And if the police there in Florida couldn't do it, why not ask their big brothers, the FBI, to do it?
Instead, we wait and we wait and we wait.
Right around the 1st, the 2nd, or the 3rd, he could have been declared a material witness, they could have gotten a search warrant, they could have searched the house before he fled.
By the time they searched the house, it was kind of useless.
If, in fact, there was any criminal activity with regard to his fleeing, don't you think everything was missing?
Everything was gone?
And I just can't help but making the following sarcastic remark.
If Brian Landry worked for Donald Trump or represented Donald Trump, what do you think would have happened?
They'd have shown up dressed like military.
They'd have called CNN, had them there, four in the morning, and like they did to Roger Stone on—I can't even remember what he was alleged to have done, but it wasn't—being involved with a missing woman, missing girl.
They'd have ripped the place apart.
And if there was a lawyer involved, they'd have ripped the lawyer's office apart.
I can personally tell you they would have done that.
What's wrong with our FBI is a very big question that emerges from this.
They should have gotten a material witness warrant.
They should have gotten a search warrant immediately.
They should have put them under 24-hour surveillance.
And beyond that, you see that long list I gave you of places that they were at?
FBI agents should have been there immediately asking, did you see them?
What did they say?
Did they have an argument?
How did they seem?
Where did they say they were going?
Who knows?
Who knows?
They solved this case by accident.
I'm going to show you how.
Not because of that.
Detective work that FBI agents used to be trained to do and did so well when I remember the FBI and did for me when we brought down the mafia and we brought down Wall Street and we brought down corrupt politicians around Ed Koch and corrupt politicians also by the state of New York and Nazis and terrorists.
They followed every lead.
They seem to have followed none here.
So how do they find her?
Through going to all those places?
No, no, no.
Thank God!
Thank God that somebody put out a posting on social media and said, if you're in that area or check, check what you got.
See if you have anything that can help us in finding Gabby.
And a couple known as the Bethunes, Jen Bethune and her husband, were traveling through that area on, I guess it was back on August 27th.
However, this exercise didn't take place until September 18th.
Think of the time lost here.
She was motivated to do this, Jen was, because of people encouraging people who do a lot of this, I guess, travel blogging, to check all your film just in case, just in case, just in case, just in case.
So she checked it, and she found the footage of Petito's white van on September 18th.
And she alerted the authorities.
And the body was discovered on September 19th.
Now, there's a picture of the white van.
That's what she saw.
Now, she saw that, I believe, on August 27th.
So think of the period of time lost here.
Shouldn't a national advisory been put out for that?
By the FBI?
If the FBI were doing what I said and going to all of these places that were listed, this is the kind of thing that would have been brought out.
Let me make it clear that Jen Bethune had no idea she had this.
In fact, I think both she and her husband said it was taken accidentally.
They had accidentally left their GoPros, the way they described it, on.
And then there was this notice sent out that anybody who might've been in the area or anybody who might've been filming or shooting or taking pictures should go check.
So she went ahead, finally on Saturday, September 18th, when she got this notice, there was no delay on her part.
We just want to make that clear.
When she got the notice, she went, she started going through her GoPro.
And all of a sudden, she comes up with the van, this van.
And she remembers it because it had Florida plates.
They're from Florida.
And she was thinking of stopping to say hello to them.
You know, from Florida, you're all the way off in the middle of the...
For me in New York, I think it's like, you know, who knows where it is.
The Arctic Circle or something, right?
But these people, you know, do this.
They travel a lot.
So she saw this very nice van.
It looks like a nice van, right?
She saw this very nice van.
She saw the Florida plate.
She said to her husband, let's see if, let's, let's, but they saw nobody in it.
They saw no signs of foul play.
She did say she had a certain kind of funny feeling about it, but she didn't really describe what that was.
And then on the 18th of September, she found it, she alerted authorities, and this was the key to finding the body, because they found it the very next day.
in an area very, very close to here.
I should say that Jen Bethune was able to call Nicole Schmidt and she said they had a very, very meaningful and very beautiful conversation.
It turns out unfortunately that the Bethunes have also lost a child.
She said something quite beautiful.
She said she's happy that she was able to bring Gabby home, but she just could wish that she'd been able to save her.
Well, we don't know.
And we'll find out eventually what this means in terms of the timeline of what happened to her.
But I mean, And she was just wonderful to have found this.
And thank God, thank God that that happened because the best thing, of course, would be if she had been brought home alive.
But having gone through September 11 and having gone through this so, so often, it is extremely meaningful when people lose a loved one.
Nothing like losing a child.
It's a nightmare that parents have.
I mean, you wake up in the middle of the night sweating.
Getting back the loved ones so you can bury them properly is much more important than you think until it happens to you.
So yes, the better outcome, of course, would be if this wonderful, beautiful young lady could have lived out her life.
But this is better than we never know or we never find the body.
So thank you to Jen.
Thank you for being conscientious enough to go search and to go look for it and to have a darn good memory.
So now here's where we are.
So now we're looking for him.
Now we're looking for him.
And I would say we're in a—let's put aside what they could have done, might have done, should have done.
They did on Monday the 20th, September 20th, they did finally execute a search warrant on the home.
We don't know what they found.
I mean, there are a lot of hypotheses here as to what happened, but if the family was in any way complicit, I can't imagine you're going to find evidence of it in the home after two weeks.
That search should have taken place on September 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, as soon as they could.
These are cases where you are trained that they have to be acted on quickly.
You can look at the statistics if you want, but in a missing persons case, every day that goes by, the chance of recovering the person alive decreases.
First day, second day, third day, just keep going out.
The lack of intensity for this, particularly on the part of the FBI, Let me be clear about this, because I know a number of the local police are very upset about the criticism.
They have every right to be.
They did their part of it.
They did their part of it.
They can't do this kind of national surveillance.
They don't have the reason.
This is what the FBI is for.
This is an FBI case.
This is an FBI—it's interstate.
So the people in North Shore Florida say, This may not even have been a crime within our jurisdiction.
It might have taken place out there.
The FBI doesn't matter.
It's any place in the country.
I don't know if they have a material witness statute under Florida law like they have under the federal law, or if it's used as frequently, where judges are very familiar with it.
Well, we have that under federal law, and it is used very frequently, and perfectly applicable here.
The failure here is completely the FBI.
The police out in Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, conducted a massive search.
They did everything they possibly could.
I do have one question, and that is, what happened with the 911 call?
Why was that call not known about early enough Maybe, maybe that would have pushed somebody into action, and instead of keep saying he was a person of interest, if there was evidence that he was slapping her around, he'd move from person of interest to material witness and suspect, which he was anyway.
So now we have to try to solve it and figure out what happened.
Look, there are any number of possibilities.
I could give you my professional judgment, but I won't because of the prejudiced case.
I'd say there's an 80 percent chance that I know what happened because of just—this case so far has followed a pattern.
We'll see if it continues at the end here.
There is some very, very significant testimony we haven't focused on.
I mean, public testimony.
There's probably a lot that's private, including a friend of hers who said he was very controlling.
The fact that she lived in his house, when you look at her a second and third time, this is a very frightened woman.
Very, very frightened.
Well, we'll see how this comes out.
It's important that these cases be investigated properly for two reasons.
Any case should be investigated properly, and when life is at stake, and when families are involved, and when their children are involved, you've got to go the extra mile.
I don't care if it's public or it's not.
It used to be that way.
I remember doing kidnapping cases and it almost seemed like we had the whole FBI.
And even before they were public.
I don't know what's happened to the FBI.
Last week it's revealed that there were 70 sexual assaults by the Olympic gymnast coaches of young girls.
Who no longer want to be on the team.
And what did they do?
They publicly excoriated the FBI.
One young woman was so eloquent about, who do I go to for protection?
Not the FBI.
They covered it up.
So maybe what has to come out of this is it needs to be reformed.
It's rotting from the top.
Well, We'll keep up with this because it hasn't been solved yet.
And crimes have unusual endings sometimes.
The way you investigate them is you come up with a hypothesis.
You can even put a percentage on it, a 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%.
But you've got to be flexible.
You don't investigate to prove your hypothesis.
You investigate to see if your hypothesis holds water, because that can often lead to other things, and you've got to be so flexible, and you have to move off it right away.
That's what makes a great investigator.
So right now there's a pretty clear hypothesis, but it may not be the case.
Let's see.
So this is Rudy Giuliani, and if you want to continue to follow this, There'll be alerts on rudyscommonsense.com.
And also, you can go to my radio show, which is on every day, on wabcradio.com.
You can get that even in Moab City, or who knows where.
You can get it if you're flying to the moon as a civilian.
Just go wabcradio.com.
Hit live.
We can be talking to you in Jerusalem.
We've got our friend from Jerusalem.
And on erudiscommonsense.com, we're going to keep laying out all these facts so that you can make a judgment of it and so that we maybe get a reform of the FBI so we can go back to being a country in which we execute the law fairly, effectively, and aggressively for everyone without political considerations.
That's the goal of A Great Country Like Ours, and we're going to make sure we get there.
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