Will Sommer of the Daily Beast joins us to discuss the Big Question every QAnon follower wants a journalist to ask the President. Will also discusses his role as a heel at the recent Washington DC QAnon rally. But before that, Travis does his thing on the entire concept of this Q-ish Question.
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Q has had a profound influence on these three lives.
Welcome, listeners, to the 58th chapter of the QAnon Anonymous podcast, the Q-ish question episode.
As always, we're your hosts, Jake Rokitansky, Julian Field, and Travis View.
Interior.
Day.
White House press room.
Correspondents from every mainstream media outlet, and even a few indie outlets, are packed, shoulder to shoulder, for a very special press briefing.
Lanyards dangle from necks.
Sweat rings the armpits of Oxford button-ups.
Coffee's cooling in small paper cups.
President Trump normally prefers fielding questions from the press pool while he's about to leave the White House or while he's flying on Air Force One.
This gives him the freedom to shut down a question at any moment.
But something is different today.
His press secretary, Joe M., has announced a more formal appearance.
The reversal of the White House's months-long no regular press conferences policy.
Not only that, but today, Trump will be handling the group of reporters himself.
The chattering press pool hushes as Trump enters the room without warning and, majestic, briskly strides to the podium.
He scans the sea of raised hands.
His first question, in a decidedly unorthodox move, goes to a small, alternative media platform.
You there, Trump fellows?" The inexperienced reporter identifies himself, his voice quivering with excitement.
Uh, uh, uh, Jake Rokitansky, uh, of the QAnon Anonymous podcast?
The question from Jake is simple.
He utters three words.
Who is Q?
The president smirks.
He's been waiting for this moment for decades.
His answer is even more economical than the question.
It's a single word.
Patriots.
A hush overtakes the press pool.
Not a breath can be heard.
You can hear far-off traffic and even the cowardly MSM journalist's heartbeats.
Trump's voice tears through the silence.
He goes for the kill shot.
I am Q Plus.
The implications of this earth-shattering revelation provoke a deeper silence still.
Then, the press pool erupts and shouted follow-up questions.
When will Hillary be arrested?
Was John McCain executed for treason?
Will JFK Jr.
be your running mate in 2020?
As news that Trump has confirmed QAnon spreads across the country, confused normies turn to their red-pilled family members, begging for answers.
A Twitter shitposter named Travis View deletes his account in a spasm of unbearable shame.
How could he have been so mistaken?
So blind?
So stupid?
Fox News runs a single chyron for the following week.
MSM has lost all credibility.
A spate of suicides threaten the foundations of the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Daily Beast, and the Hillary 2024 campaign.
And, in an act of poetic justice, QAnon followers assume their rightful place as the vanguards of the Great Awakening.
Or so the QAnon community thinks will happen.
This week, we're exploring the Q-ish question, or how the movement's followers think the media should cover them.
We'll also be speaking with Will Sommer, fake news journalist for the Daily Beast and enemy number one of the QAnon community.
With his help, we'll explore the Trump administration's QAnon problem and Will's role as a heel at the Washington DC QAnon rally we all recently attended.
But before all that...
First up, Justice denies motion to dismiss the murder case of the QAnon killer.
So, we have a minor update in the case of Anthony Camello, the 24-year-old Long Island man who is facing second-degree murder charges for the allegedly QAnon-motivated slaying of Bob Boss Frank Calley.
A justice denied a motion by Camello to dismiss the indictment and contest search warrants, police use to seize his cell phone, iPads, and other electronic devices.
As Justice William E. Garnett ruled that the evidence presented to a grand jury was legally sufficient to establish murder and other charges.
However, the judge did grant the defense's request for a hearing to determine whether any statements camello made to authorities were legally obtained.
So the wheels of justice are turning very slowly in that case.
And God, I can't wait to hear the defense do their best to say camello was so red pilled he can't be convicted of murder.
I know it's going to be incredible.
Yeah.
iPads plural which means that he was fucking Tom Cruise style
Using like multiple screens at one which actually is wade through you and on on a chair
It's probably gonna be a net positive for the Q community because they'll be like see yes
This guy is mentally ill like we are a nonviolent community like he is the outlier like he's even used mental
You know mental illness as part of his defense like they'll use that shit to be like it's not us
We never would walk up onto a mob boss and try to perform a citizen's arrest and when things go south
But produce a nine millimeter revolver and shoot him nine times
times.
But the defense was that Camel believed in this QAnon world so sincerely that that's what motivated him to take these actions and essentially that's why he shouldn't be legally liable for shooting Frank Cali.
This is basically the defense.
Holy shit.
So this is very eerie.
It's very ballsy.
It's very preemptive.
Like, they're just like, dismiss it completely.
It's like, well, he did shoot a guy in the driveway.
You're not gonna... Hey, you can go home, Anthony.
Everything's fine.
Like, you didn't do anything.
Boys, what if the lawyers on this, what if their route is like, he is not responsible.
Whoever is posting as Q is responsible for radicalizing my client and pushing him to commit a murder he normally would never.
Look at his record.
Look at all this.
And what if the lawyers actually launch a campaign to discover who the real QAnon is in an effort, I mean... They'd like subpoena 8chan for
like IP addresses. Yeah, I mean it's a murder case, it's a capital murder case is it not?
Yeah. It's premeditated is it not? It's gonna be pretty wild when they trace it back to Bill Clinton.
Oh my god! Or fucking Hillary herself that's like, yes I was, I am Q.
Bill is just having to apologize to Hillary.
I'm sorry.
I just thought you ran a piece of shit campaign in 2016.
I'm sorry, Hillary.
I keep fucking up things for you, don't I?
I'm so sorry.
You've given me this wonderful life.
I'm allowed to fuck any child that I want.
I was under a lot of pressure after the Epstein case.
After the Epstein case.
Started posting.
Very well.
I just wanted to post and make a couple new friends.
Possibly meet some more teenagers.
Right, second story.
Arizona Community College fires professor who promoted QAnon theory in class.
Shadowban.
So yeah, you might remember the case of the Mesa Community College English professor, Douglas Belmore.
At the beginning of the fall semester, he showed his class the 14-minute YouTube video, The Plan to Save the World.
fucking English teacher. That is the best part of this. He's a fucking English teacher.
Not even remotely related. Not sociology, not history, fucking not politics, nothing.
No relation whatsoever. He's like, listen, we're going to be looking at the meaning of
For Whom the Bell Tolls and also Joe M's plan to save the world this week, students.
I was reading something where people went on his, you know where you can review your professors or whatever?
And the reviews about him beforehand were that he was always pushing 9-11 conspiracies.
He was already pretty red-billed.
All the reviews were like, very based, five stars.
And I think Q just kind of pushed him over the edge to the point where he was like, if I don't educate my students on this Great Awakening, what kind of teacher am I?
Goddamn, loose change as part of the literature canon.
I know, of course.
So, though the college refused to say why Belmore was fired, Belmore did confirm that he was let go in a tweet, and here's what that tweet said.
My name is Doug.
I have taught English in higher education in California, Arizona, New Mexico, and South Korea for three decades.
At Mesa College, I shared a cue with a class.
I was fired.
Why did you share?
You're showing off that you've been an English professor for this long and you shared a YouTube video.
It's not even written text.
It's not even written!
About a secret internet spy.
The video is made by a man with a very common first name and one initial for his last name.
God damn it, man.
He still isn't offered a justification about why this was relevant to his class.
Yeah.
Joe is like, oh, another fucking casualty.
Who cares?
It's worth it that this guy lost his job because of my garbage.
If he was such a smart professor, what he would have done is he would have showed the video as a lesson in online propaganda and radicalization and stuff, and secretly hoped that a couple of the students would walk away going, Oh, you know what?
I'm gonna look more into this, you know?
I mean, you could soft pill him, you know?
That kind of soft pill.
Not good.
This is like how to covertly red pill people in your classroom podcast.
Yeah, please don't help them with that.
But Douglas, I'm sure you noticed the amazing use of the equalizer in Joe M's video.
Anyways, I'll leave it there.
Question with Travis View.
On social media, QAnon followers often tell reporters that they should ask the Q. That is, reporters should ask President Trump himself about QAnon.
This stems from the belief that if a reporter were to just ask Trump about QAnon, he would confirm that QAnon is true.
And Q actually promoted this belief in a June 2018 QDrop, and here's what that says.
We are waiting for a reporter to ask the ultimate question.
What are they waiting for?
They can end this at any time simply by asking POTUS, right?
We may have to force this one.
Q.
Notice that line they can end this at any time simply by asking POTUS, right?
So that stems from the bizarre belief that if Trump were to simply deny QAnon that would just destroy the conspiracy theory Everyone who believes it would give it up.
They would all delete their accounts They would all return to the regular lives and then we would you know, I guess refocus the podcast but but It's the rapture, though.
They get to ascend.
They get to ascend.
But the idea is that they imagine, they fantasize, well, if Q would say, no, it's all nonsense, then everyone who believes in QAnon is like, well, guess that settles that, and then they just stop believing.
What if he says yes?
If he says yes, then obviously then QAnon is real.
This is their idea.
But see, we know what's going to happen.
Even if Trump says no, they're going to be like, oh, well, that's all part of it.
They wanted us to ask the question so he could say no, because he needs to be on record as denying that this is real so that when the arrests and the Gitmo hangings do come, people can't say, oh, Trump ordered this.
He had to.
It was all along.
He knew this.
That's going to be exactly what they say.
But that's what I'm saying.
It's like they think that Trump is in a secret war with the deep state.
So why would they want Trump to admit that if the whole point of him keeping it secret
is to make it more effective at defeating the deep state?
Yeah, good point.
He's like, oh, yes, it's true.
I've been a spy this whole time.
Right.
That's not good.
You don't want to fucking dox Trump as a super spy.
Yeah.
Especially considering that all, you know, 4000 posts or whatever already all are out
in public and not part of his secret.
It's a code that everybody can see.
Are you really wanting Trump to fucking drive through Dealey Plaza?
I mean, do you think maybe they mean just like, it's for the normies, so that Trump goes, yes, Q is real or whatever, and the normies go like, what is that?
Because I still, in my day-to-day life, When it comes up, what do I do with my weekends, and I say I record this podcast about QAnon, people are like, what's that?
Very disappointing.
Can you please help Jake with this?
But yeah, that's probably it.
They probably think it'll help wake up the normies, and then also, once and for all, confirm that's Q, and then have all us doubters, us blue pill doubters, eat crow, is basically the fantasy.
Yeah, that's the fantasy.
They just, even probably more than the hangings and stuff, what they really want is all the libs to delete their verified Twitter accounts and be like, whoa, we pulled our eyes out of our head at the revelation that we were wrong this entire time.
Yeah.
Of course, little do they know, we will give them no satisfaction.
If Q becomes real, we'll get on the fucking podcast and be like, welcome to QAnon Anonymous, the fucking 156th chapter, the Q is real episode.
Let's go.
Actually, we're going to hang Travis.
To placate them and then me and Jake will resume our... You just put my head on a pike outside the studio.
And we go back to our garbage, like, muddy kind of... Yeah, blah blah blah, just reading 8-chain bullshit to each other.
There is, of course, a second problem with that whole theory, that even if Trump were to say, yes, I know all about Q, and all the Q drops come from military intelligence, it's all true, that wouldn't change the fact that in reality, QAnon is an absurd, deranged conspiracy theory.
And that's because, get this, sometimes Trump says things that are untrue, and sometimes he even promotes baseless conspiracy theories.
Really, the theory that Trump has the power to once and for all confirm QAnon rests on the premise that everything that Trump says is factual, which I personally take issue with.
I mean, yeah, it's true.
It would be like saying, well, Trump has been posting about Obama not being a real American, and then let's ask Trump if Obama's a real American.
He says, no.
Wow, that confirms all the posts that he made about this.
It is very much circular.
You know, another big problem with demanding that reporters should ask the question is that a White House reporter has brought up QAnon with then-press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders, who was the president's spokesperson at the time.
And here is her answer.
First of all, does the president encourage the support of people who showed up last night in these QAnon and Blacks for Trump fringe groups?
On the first part, the president condemns and denounces any group that would incite violence against another individual and certainly doesn't support groups that would promote that type of behavior.
We've been clear about that a number of times since the beginning of the administration.
Yeah, so I mean, like, won't the Q guys be like, well, of course, we are a non-violent group, so of course that was a way of them saying, like, oh, well, we don't associate with any violent groups.
Well, that's definitely not us, because we know we're not violent.
Oh my god.
That's definitely one of the ways that they say that doesn't count.
Travis just took a hammer to Jake's skull.
Oh god, he's so dead.
Very dead.
All the stuff inside is coming out.
He's dead.
Now, that obviously is like a boilerplate answer that seems like it's distancing itself from QAnon without actually alienating the die-hard Trump supporters.
Well, she heard blacks and she's like, we disavow violent movements.
The point is that the reporter did bring up QAnon, even if the answer is pretty unsatisfactory for everyone.
But I thought they have to ask Trump.
Yeah.
Julian's pilled.
That's true.
That is an excellent point, Julian.
My only pill is that I want Travis to get furious.
But the problem is, is that Sanders in that answer was speaking on behalf of the president, because that's literally her job.
Her answer even started with, the president condemns and denounces, because she wasn't giving her own answer.
She was giving the president's answer as the president's spokesperson.
Goddammit.
Can Iago speak for Jafar?
If he's... Yeah, sure, why not?
So, QAnon followers will also often complain, oh, so like the mainstream media will write dozens or hundreds of articles about QAnon, but they won't ask Trump himself about it.
You know, one problem with this complaint is that, like, none of the articles about QAnon are, like, actually written by White House correspondents.
Those QAnon articles are usually written by reporters with a focus on online radicalization, the far right, or social media or some other beat that probably doesn't give them an opportunity to actually speak directly with President Trump.
You know, reporters who cover the White House Have dozens of other issues that they probably want to bring up with the president that take precedence over QAnon.
I mean, just think this week, you know, it's been reported that the White House has been circulating a possible gun background check bill.
You know, the White House recently pulled its nominee to head FEMA.
And of course there's, you know, there's new National Security Advisors since John Bolton got the boot.
You know, there's also all this Ukraine whistleblower nonsense, you know.
You know, there's lots of news circulating around the White House that's, you know, bigger, probably more important than QAnon.
So you're saying Hillary Hanks is page three?
Hillary Hanks is page three, yeah.
Yeah, obviously, I think QAnon is fascinating, but I'm not so self-absorbed that I believe that my pet interest is the most important issue for a reporter to bring up with Trump himself.
Yeah, but that's because you believe it's false.
If you believe it's true, it's the most important thing ever in the history of mankind.
Yeah, it's like, why their beliefs seem so strange is that they literally can't imagine a world or a mindset in which QAnon is false.
That's right, dark to light.
So another issue with the whole, like, ask the Q thing is that QAnon-friendly people have been to the White House, such as Lionel of Lionel Media and Bill Mitchell, and they also didn't bring up QAnon.
And of course, you know, Trump doesn't actually need a reporter to ask about a particular issue in order to bring it up with Trump himself.
You know, so the idea that Trump can only bring up QAnon if a reporter asks about it is nonsense.
It's this weird thing where, like, they say that they hate the MSM,
they say that the MSM has no credibility, no validity, but they say, like—
—they desperately need them to validate this thing.
—Exactly!
If the MSM doesn't matter, why the fuck do you need... Say the thing, MSM!
We need you to validate my theory.
Why do you care what the MSM does?
Yeah, why would Trump, if he has amazing information that everyone should have, why would he wait for the fake news journalists to ask him about it?
When the entire point, even self-proclaimed point, of QAnon is to bypass the mainstream media!
You know what it is?
It's a cube except one side is a sphere.
It's this fucking impossible shape that never makes any kind of sense whatsoever.
It's like, oh god.
God, he's going full Bill Mitchell.
He's fucking twitching.
Like, who's to say that these guys haven't gone, like Bill Mitchell hasn't like leaned in, you know, over a golden platter of, you know, filet-o-fish, and gone like, no, no, no, no, Mr. President, a lot of people do want to know, is Q real?
And Trump's like, huh?
What?
And he's like, what?
Yeah.
Are you going to eat the rest of your filet of fish?
Right.
So yeah, there actually is one instance in which a QAnon follower claims that they actually did bring up Q with President Trump.
And this individual goes by the name VIPAnon.
And their name because they have on occasion received VIP access to Trump rallies and even post photos of his badge and himself at the rallies to prove that this is accurate.
VIP Anon claims that he addressed Q with Trump while he was backstage at the Rochester, Minnesota Trump rally that took place on October 4th, 2018.
Now, obviously I have no way of confirming whether or not this account is true, but we can sort of judge for ourselves whether it rings true for us.
So here's how VIP Anon says that conversation went down.
So I'll play VIP Anon and Jake will play Trump.
I have a question.
Okay.
Is Q real?
He looked me right in the eye, paused for an uncomfortable second, and then threw out
his hands to the side and said, I don't know.
Maybe.
Another pause, then said, I do know they are great people.
Yes, they are.
So I'll be honest.
Even this isn't good.
It is.
I don't know.
Maybe.
I don't know, maybe.
Maybe.
I heard they're good people.
I mean, this is what he says about anything he doesn't understand.
They're good people.
I'll be honest.
I believe this account.
I believe 100% this conversation went down.
Yeah.
Because it sounds exactly like him.
And it sounds like It sounds like he said, I don't know, maybe. And then he,
he, he think is that he, Trump knows how to read a room. He knows how to read a person. And so he
sounds like he said, I don't know, maybe he read that the person he was speaking to was
looking a little disappointed. And it was like, uh, and then he sort of went changed tack and said,
like, I know the great people. Yeah.
Yeah. I do hear it. If I hear anything, it's the people.
Great. Good.
This is what happens when you put crumbs in the oven and think they're going to rise into a cake.
You're just like, oh, it's just burnt crumbs at the end, but you're like, proof!
Proof!
This tiny fleck of black burnt matter is in fact a cake!
And in fact, if you take the crumbs out, push them closely together on a plate, and put some frosting over it, and eat it with a spoon, it basically tastes like a cake.
Amazing.
It's basically a cake.
So tasty.
Very good.
Good frosting.
You can eat the frosting alone too.
He's also a repeat guest.
Welcome back to the show, Will.
Hey, thanks for having me!
It's a real pleasure to have the enemy number one of QAnon and also a fellow attendee of the rally, although I guess we were on different sides of the aisle.
You seem to get a lot of shoutouts.
Can you kind of walk us through the experience that day?
Yeah, I mean, you know, first of all, I would say I'm sure had they realized y'all were there, you and Travis, I think you guys would have gotten a lot of heat as well.
I was honestly surprised with perhaps how large I loom in the queue imagination apparently.
Yeah, so I showed up and, you know, the weird thing, first the weird thing about the rally was it was supposed to start at 8am and go till 8pm, you know, according to the permit, and then it ended up not doing that.
So I got there really early.
So I saw like the very first queue people sort of straggling in.
Basically, once things got going, there were a lot of people, a lot of characters, I guess, I mean, Jordan Sather being the most obvious one, kind of coming up and trying to, I guess, like, own me on camera.
But, you know, it was interesting, like, he would come up and try to start trouble, but he, like, would interrupt me talking to another Q person, and then I'd kind of brush him off, and then this other Q person would be like, what a jerk, you know, there's so many Q, internal Q rivalries.
Wait, so people were talking shit about Jordan Sather for interrupting you?
Yeah, yeah!
Like, I'd be talking to one kind of would-be QAnon personality, and I'd say, you know, Jordan, I'll deal with you when this interview's done.
And then she, you know, she's kind of seeing her chance to be in the spotlight, and so, you know, and Jordan crashing it.
There was one point where I was talking to our mutual friend, Jared Holt, and one of the organizers clearly comes up and is sort of trying to eavesdrop on us.
I don't think it was particularly interesting, but she's kind of standing there, and we're in the middle of this field.
It's before the event starts, so there's really no reason to be standing near us.
Uh, and then I tried to interview her, and she said no, and she kind of stayed at this, like, weird remove.
Um, but yeah, in general, it was really bizarre.
Um, you know, one of the, I think the, you guys seemed a little more familiar with him, big bearded tall guy, one of the speakers.
Yeah, I actually don't know the names.
Travis is the nerd, but yeah, that's the more evangelical guy.
He likes to mix in some Bible stuff.
Right, so at one point I guess he was aware of me and he tried to video chat with Mira to put me on his stream.
You know, I kind of brushed him off as well, but this is a pretty tall fellow, maybe like 6'3", 6'4".
I'm 5'11".
But his fans, I guess, don't realize that this guy is so tall.
So now it's become a big QAnon meme.
I mean, relatively small world, but that I'm really short because they're looking at it from his vantage point.
And so all these people have been tweeting at me like, how tall are you, manlit, that kind of stuff.
Yeah, it's very difficult for them to be like, the deep state is simultaneously a huge evil threat, you know, backed by these evil journalists, but also you're weak and tiny.
Yeah, exactly, exactly right.
But yeah, I mean, you know, once things kicked off, I mean, I think y'all's, your episode covered it pretty well.
It really kind of gave, hopefully, listeners a sense of how absolutely surreal it was to be there.
I mean, just deadly hot, just people ranting about, you know, obviously Jordan was on about how the cabal is hiding the anti-gravity devices, you know, people being told to drink turpentine, you know, and really, of course, Trump's photographer, Really just like riling them up with the talk about adrenochrome.
You know, I think the other thing I would note is like just talking to the kind of rank and file QAnon people, I was really struck by how they were really kind of shy about saying what QAnon is really about.
I don't know if you all experienced this, but there was a lot of like, well, I like it because it's about stopping corruption.
Yeah, there were some people that seemed aware that there were cameras and that the, like a broader population.
And then like you said, the photographer for Trump was actually, because he's kind of probably an outsider, you know, this was his moment to let rip.
And he kind of went to the heart of what's actually behind QAnon.
And then the conversations behind the scenes We're also way more revealing of what the general kind of thought structure or even the individual minds are up to, despite these influencers, in my opinion, letting them down, not understanding what they wanted from a speech.
I think Jordan was a classic example of just droning on about a million other things.
He could have been on a fucking boat talking to some disclosure people.
he hit on QAnon and then kind of did like a fast forward.
It's like, and now it's today, and 8chan is down, you know, he didn't really fulfill
anything. But I also saw you like he came up to you and put his arm around you and you, you kind
of visibly shuddered. Can you walk me through like the physical sensation of okay, someone
approaches you? Do you have like a visceral like fight and flight?
And also, when someone calls you out, I- every time I experienced the call-out, I looked to where they were pointing, and you were no longer there.
Did you have ninja skills or not?
Well, yeah, it was pretty funny.
So, yeah, in the case of Jordan, he later posted a video of this and kind of cut out the parts that made clear that he was interrupting me talking to someone else.
But, yeah, so he comes over and kind of puts his arm around me and, you know, in retrospect, I should have brought up how I should have used the opportunity to tell his audience not to drink bleach.
But, you know, I've got to use the soapbox when it's given to me.
Um, but yeah, I mean, you know, there's a lot of, like, you know, let's, there was a lot of, like, let's catch Will, what have you.
Um, but yeah, I mean, as you mentioned, there was this really bizarre phenomenon of, I was sort of sitting off to the side of the stage, but clearly, like, very visible nevertheless.
You know, as you, as you all mentioned, it was not exactly a huge crowd.
Um, and so, but there was a lot of, I think Jordan at one point, one of the speakers was sort of like, I see Will in the fake news is here and they pointed some guy who's very much not me.
And then it's like, we all see you, Will.
And I, you know, I'm just sitting there.
I think Dustin Nemos gave me some mentions.
But it was very weird, and it's also a little, I will say, let's say certain people who acted very hostile to me while speaking are not always that hostile when, you know, when they're not, when they don't have a crowd to please.
Of course not, because you're the heel.
That was one thing that struck us.
You are the heel, and you don't really play into it.
You're probably one of the shyest heels in the WWF.
But yeah, they need you.
They absolutely need you to misrepresent them, because that's the story.
They spent most of their time talking about how they're misrepresented, they're being shadowbanned.
So, I mean, what are you going to do?
Are you going to embrace this role?
Are you going to find, like, a costume to wear?
Because you were pretty low-key, lots of kind of, like, faded colors.
I'm not, yeah, I didn't think it was very impressive.
Yeah, my Mr. Deep State costume, where, like, I dress up like a mockingbird for Operation Mockingbird.
Yeah, where's your Phantom of the Opera mask?
Are you going to have... Okay, tell me this.
What's your entrance music?
Oh gosh, that's a great question.
Probably like Private Eyes, like Hall and Oates, something like that.
The Pink Panther song?
I mean, it really was sort of like this sense that... I would say the vast majority of the people in the audience there had no idea who I was, which of course made the speeches in which I'm constantly mentioned without any reference to who I am probably even less satisfying.
So, as you said, I think it was interesting with...
Especially in the case of Sather and the Edge of Wonder guys, how clearly these guys have their hands in a lot of different pots and QAnon is just one of them.
And so they don't want to, like, let's say, burn their reputation entirely with the UFO crew by going too deep on QAnon.
And so they have to kind of do these broader, like, you know, sort of covering all of their bases and then also not really getting into so much, like, lizard people or cannibalism.
And so, but then, you know, as you mentioned with the Trump photographer, I think that was a guy who really has nothing to lose at this point in terms of his reputation, and so he can really throw out the red meat.
Yeah, and like, he doesn't have... I mean, both Jordan and Edge of Wonder, as you mentioned, they were maybe the tamest, and they kind of, you know, were subtle and boring, I think, for the QAnon people, but that's because those videos ended up online on their channels.
Right, exactly, exactly.
I mean, you know, you've got to just kind of, the general vibe was like, sort of distrust of the government without even really per se getting into, you know, Q-drops, stuff like that.
I have a lot of social anxiety, so I'm kind of going to refocus on that.
Did you get cold chills?
Like if someone pointed me out in a crowd, I think I would just, yeah, it'd be difficult for me.
Did you get any of that or do you just feel like cool as a cucumber out there?
I mean, unfortunately, you know, this is something I've had to deal with, you know, with a lot of different groups on the right, not just QAnon.
And to be like, honestly, like some of the mentions were kind of on the lighter side of what's come up in my career.
And so, you know, It's certainly very weird because you kind of get the sense that people are going to wonder how you're reacting.
But in this case, it was kind of such a ridiculous display that I did not feel too concerned.
There were a couple selfie requests from random members of the audience, which I also had to decline because I don't know if I'm going to take a picture with a guy and it's going to be on Adrenochrome 420 or what have you.
Yeah, of course.
But yeah, no, I mean, it was an interesting experience.
And I think as you all experienced as well, it's always interesting talking to, I would
say, less polished members of the QAnon community.
So like people who are not necessarily in it for their careers.
And so, and especially when people are kind of talking about the sort of the personal
things in their own lives that have gotten them into QAnon, I think is often sort of
the most telling.
Or when they talk about, for example, the couple that said, you know, they've essentially been, you know, it becomes strange from their children over that.
I mean, that's something that like, obviously, the Edge of Wonder guy, so like that, that's not the side of QAnon they want to promote.
Yeah, no, and that was definitely the more heartbreaking side.
Yeah, I mean, it was just a weird experience.
And so you're the one of the rare Pokemon for them, but they did not catch you.
You are free.
You are wandering the Earth to curse them.
If they put together a Kickstarter, how much money would you take to lay off the military intelligence that is QAnon?
Well, you know, I think you have to harken back to the other mentions of money.
I mean, you know, they once claimed Jack Posobiec was receiving $500 million or something like that from the government.
So, you know, I mean, honestly, the prices being tossed around by either side are pretty high, you know, according to the QAnon lore.
Well, if you want to pay my money to Will, just go through us.
Just email me first.
We'll definitely distribute it to him.
You can trust.
So during the QAnon rally, Jack and Lisa Welch, they actually took credit for distributing the Q shirts to the Tampa Trump rally.
Actually, I thought they were also one of the few people that understood the movement the most and were the most kind of all-in.
And this kind of, you know, they kind of claimed that it helped spur mainstream interest in QAnon, or at least that they were responsible for all those signs that then ended up doing that.
Do you think that QAnon followers are more media savvy than people might suspect?
You know, it's interesting.
I think, you know, certainly we're going on their claim that they were the ones who distributed it.
I kind of see no reason to doubt that at this point.
But certainly the idea of, you know, the story they painted, which was, you know, QAnon in August 2018 had been going on for nearly a year.
Hillary Clinton had still evaded the Guantanamo police.
She basically made the point that people were getting down.
Obviously this was two months after the Inspector General report failed to vindicate Q and that had been a big one.
That was the whole Hoover Dam armored truck incident.
So basically they were like, well, you know, like everyone's feeling down.
What if we, you know, this kind of comes back to the famous Q world thought of let's force the question, right?
So how are we going to, to like make people talk about it?
And I mean, I certainly think in their case, the idea of, because, you know, I think we'd seen Q stuff at rallies before that, but this was the first time that, I mean, they had the very clever idea of printing up all of these shirts and signs and so it becomes a much more
organized presence rather than one guy with a Q cap. You see 30 people with giant Q shirts.
So I think in their case it I mean, kind of the big challenge I think that we all deal with covering this stuff is that, you know, how much of the outlandishness is sometimes being pitched in a way to attract mainstream media attention.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I mean, now that 8chan is down, we have seen a kind of steady decrease in certainly Google searches for QAnon, which I guess would indicate that there's less broad interest, or at least newcomers that are trying to find out what it even is.
You know, what do you think is next for the movement, you know, if 8chan comes back and if 8chan doesn't?
Yeah, I mean, I think at this point, let's say A-Chan comes back.
I was talking to Jim Watkins, the operator of A-Chan, a couple weeks ago.
I mean, he's claiming they're going to be back.
I mean, he was claiming at the time that they'd be back.
What's now, like, two weeks ago.
And obviously that didn't happen.
I mean, he seems pretty convinced he can get it up.
So let's say A-Chan comes back.
And if they do, then...
I think Q is going to either have to sort of ramp up the craziness and then, you know, that's kind of kind of going to winnow down the crew.
Or, you know, you could imagine, you know, especially today we're hearing, you know, that the House is launching an impeachment inquiry.
You can imagine that kind of providing more fuel for and potential recruits for Q.
Right, because suddenly it's the deep state.
You know, we're in the same way that Q kind of sprang up as an answer to the Mueller inquiry.
Now there's going to be a new thing involving national security and a whistleblower and an investigation and Eastern Europe.
So, you know, you can imagine Q sort of having a renaissance from that.
I think if 8chan is shut down, then the most obvious challenge is going to be verifying Q's identity wherever he or they or she ends up trying to go.
You know, obviously there's some theories to the Q identity that suggest that, you know, the handle or the trip code has passed through multiple handlers and sort of has been
hijacked and stuff like that. But certainly I would say if HN never comes back, now this is
kind of a haunting thought, you could imagine, you know, sort of rival queues like popes and anti-popes
sort of saying, you know, I'm the true Q. Yeah, to be honest, I'm surprised that hasn't
already happened because there are plenty of platforms that Q could use.
But I mean, when you look at what happened with Q asking the Watkins father-son duo to get a more secure trip code when they could have used a Bitcoin wallet or some sort of thing like this that You know, the creator of 8chan was mentioning that if Q was so savvy technologically, he or she or they could have very, very easily created their own hyper secure trip code that was, you know, essentially unbreakable, but they haven't.
But I am very surprised that they haven't attempted at least to pop up somewhere else and get back in touch with the movement.
I mean, I'm pretty sure they could at least Yeah, it's a good question, right?
with Jim Watkins in some limited way to try to go through them.
But do you think that's intentional or what?
Yeah, it's a good question, right?
I mean, on one hand, Q has obviously been, you know, was silent more or less going into
8chan going down.
And of course, that's also as sort of this drumbeat of, you know, the FBI perhaps getting
somewhat interested in Q Happens.
So, you know, on one hand, maybe the Q, whoever's behind it, is saying, oh, well, you know, I'll cut bait while I can.
On the other hand, we certainly have seen, like, some hucksters rising up.
I mean, obviously, when Q went silent in 2018, that's when the JFK Jr.
stuff started up with the famous Q imitator R.
And then now, you know, there's this, and this is really getting deep into it, but this Santa Claus person who's sort of implying that he's Q or is like Q's best friend on Twitter.
So I guess we are starting to see some imitators, but as you mentioned, the idea that Q is kind of reliant on this one trip code that's controlled, that's on a system controlled by someone else, is not exactly the best NSA OPSEC I've ever seen.
Yeah, no, they don't seem to really at least have high intention to come back, you know?
It doesn't seem... Maybe it's a one-way thing, you know?
Like, the QAnon followers kind of hope that they're being missed by Q, but maybe Q's somewhere, you know, having a Mai Tai.
Right, exactly.
This kind of gets into the whole treatment of Q and both Trump and the idea that this is this patriot making this great sacrifice and they don't have to be doing this.
But in terms of the larger QAnon movement, I think...
I think it's numbers are going to wax and wane, but I think certainly as long as we have QAnon adult baby boomers with us, I think pretty much it's going to be with us forever, or at least until that sort of generation passes on.
Because, I mean, we've seen Q people, even a year ago, when it was kind of starting to falter and become, like, obviously clear that these predictions weren't happening, they'd say, you know, well, it doesn't really matter whether Q is real, what he taught us is cool, or, like, we're all Q now.
So I think QAnon is kind of morphing in a way that it can continue without Q.
Yeah, the Daily Beast spoke to an unnamed Trump campaign official about QAnon, and the campaign official said that the policy was to, quote, ignore them and not to, quote, make a big deal out of them.
So, I mean, it looks like the goal is to deprive them of press attention and to avoid, you know, pissing off the crazy people, basically.
Do you think that the Trump campaign sees the QAnon community as an asset or a liability?
Well, judging from that story which I did with Asa and Supe saying at the Daily Beast, I think it's a mix.
I think on one hand they really don't want essentially people outside of Q-World and certainly outside of MAGA-World to know any more about Q-People than they have to.
That's why we see this.
Purported ban on Q gear at the rallies because they you know after after the Florida rally in August 2018 I think they saw that all of a sudden I mean, you know It was like people like me going on TV and having to explain to cable news viewers That essentially pizza gate had really intertwined itself with the Trump campaign On the other hand, you know, obviously we have that
campaign official's quote, you know, on the other hand, Trump himself is like
constantly promoting QAnon. So he's, you know, whether or not he realizes or not, or whether this is Dan
Scavino in charge of the Twitter, you know, he's tweeting, he's retweeting Q people all the
time. You know, his Trump...
The Trump campaign had some QAnon signs in their Women for Trump video.
Brandon Strzoka, who's kind of a right-wing personality, he said, where we go on, we go all from the stage at one of the Trump rallies.
Trump invited some Q people to the White House for the social media summit.
So I think the idea that the administration and the campaign are just really bedeviled
by these Q people and they can't do anything about them, I think is ridiculous.
I think they basically—that quote is more or less right, although I think it doesn't—or
I think it's an accurate description of the situation.
But I think it doesn't really take into account the fact that the Trump campaign and or administration
is sort of actively fueling QAnon but just trying to not make it clear to Q people—or
excuse me, to the general public what's going on.
And one thing that strikes me is that people often seem to think that you're part of the, you know, the White House press corps, and they want you to ask the question.
But if you were part of the White House press corps, or even let's say you have like a 60-minute style interview with Trump, I'd like to first hear from a strategic point of view, knowing that QAnon tends to be a dangerous movement, at the very least to the mental state of lots of Americans, but also potentially on more of a physical level, in terms of the violence that it has sometimes created.
Do you think it's smart to ask that question?
You know, it's a great question.
I've only been to the White House once.
I went for the social media summit a couple months back.
And honestly, I was very prepared to ask the question that people have been demanding I ask.
Because, you know, I think at this point it's time to bring it to a head, just in terms of the sense that I think Trump, the administration, is fueling it.
On the other hand, I think there's plenty of reasons people who are in the White House press corps aren't asking it.
Uh, because again, you know, on one hand, in all likelihood, I think Trump doesn't know what the deal with any of this is.
Uh, and so I think he would just say, you know, some sort of gobbledygook that would then be interpreted as a sort of like wink-wink acknowledgement of QAnon.
One could also imagine he only knows that Q people like him a lot, and that he would say something like, you know, I hear they're great folks.
Or, you know, you can sort of imagine a much more diabolical decision on his part, which would be to say, yeah, Q's real.
And then all of a sudden QAnon becomes, you know, fabulously more popular, and QAnon people are taunting me on Twitter forever that they were right.
So you're saying you're willing to ask the question?
Yes, I am, yeah.
So welcome to the 55,000 new followers to Will Summers' Twitter account.
Well, again, I think you would have to phrase it a certain way, and I think I would probably want to strategize more about it.
But I do think that it sort of depends on the phrasing, but I do think it is a... I think if you made it about the administration's promotion of QAnon, which was my plan at the Social Media Summit, I think I would have wanted to do that.
Of course, instead, you know, Trump stormed out and Seb Gorka got challenged to a fight by a reporter.
So, you know, obviously there was some other news that day instead.
Wow, well, I mean, it is fascinating to know that the entire narrative of, like, you could end this by asking one question doesn't even really fit, because people are kind of willing, and actually they have, you know, you guys, at least at The Daily Beast, have been willing to contact the administration and do your best to get that question answered.
And yet they seem incredibly evasive.
Do you think that's because, you know, anything you publish can't be trusted, so those quotes in some way are filed under the do-not-trust for QAnon people?
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, I think you would certainly want to phrase the question in a way, again, like, I was going to say something like, you know, why are you promoting this, you know, this ideology that's been, you know, accused of these murders, something like that, rather than, you know, Hey, President Trump, would you agree that where we go one, we go all?
Or something like that.
Right.
But yeah, I mean, I think that's certainly it.
I think, you know, obviously the big demand now is ask the question.
And of course, that's in large part because they just want to get it back on TV.
But I think, were you to, you know, they think Fox is, you know, in the deep state's pocket.
They certainly think One America News is.
So you would really have to like, You know, basically it would have to be like Ben Garrison asked the question, I think, for them to give it any credibility.
I mean, even Jim Watkins in his interview on One American News with Posobiec said, I don't think Q is military intelligence.
So, do you think they're also like, hey, yeah, Jim Watkins, who literally runs 8chan, is also deep state?
I mean, how can you reconcile those two things?
Yeah, so when I talked to Watkins, he was very vague about, you know, I think you can say, oh, I don't think it's military intelligence, but, you know, that leaves it open to, you know, maybe it's JFK Jr.
or something.
And so I was trying to make the point to him, I was kind of like, You know, do you think this is fake?
And he's just, oh, you know, I think it's free speech.
I mean, he's a very difficult kind of person to interview because he obviously is very deliberately vague and kind of jumps around on questions.
But yeah, I mean, I think, look, I think something that you all have covered on the podcast over and over is how, you know, there's basically no disproving cue for a large segment of this population.
And, I mean, that's part of what's built into the vagueness of the clues, is that even when something certainly seems like a deadline, you know, I believe going back, it was like December 5th or something that was like the big date.
Yeah.
D5?
Yeah, exactly.
And then when that didn't happen, they said, oh, well, you know, maybe it's like this obscure, really complicated watch setting or something, like all this kind of stuff.
So, yeah, I mean, the...
Certainly their demands for asking the question have been, I think, interesting for actual White House reporters to experience in terms of people just getting their inboxes deluged with demands for a conspiracy theory.
I think certainly before August 2018, you know, none of these reporters had ever heard of.
So you've been covering Q for a while and, you know, like we mentioned earlier, you were at the rally.
You know, what are your takeaways from the rally?
How has your perception of the movement, if at all, changed?
It's interesting, I think, so I also went to, I think there was a QAnon March in April 2018.
Also in Washington.
And in that case, it kind of struck me how many people that were there.
It was probably about maybe 150 people, I'd say, kind of marching through the streets of D.C.
chanting, you know, trust the plan.
And so on that hand, in that sense, I felt it gave me a weird sense of like, oh, this is an actual thing.
And certainly something that became clear then at the Florida rally.
In this case, I think it was, It was interesting how, not just how few people showed up, because admittedly the brilliant decision to hold this on a Tuesday may have, I think, partially affected that.
I feel like perhaps the disconnect between the leadership and the rank and file, as you mentioned.
Admittedly, a lot of Q people weren't there.
Interestingly, the Patriot Soapbox crew, I think many of them, are in the Virginia area, so that would not have been too
far. I heard a little discontent from Captain Roy D that Patriot Soapbox wasn't there. It
wasn't entirely clear to me whether he meant that Patriot Soapbox wasn't invited or
that this was a snub. But I think these real-life events often sort of expose you to the most
hardcore QAnon types, and you kind of get a sense of where it's all headed. The organizer,
after we kind of hung out with her after the rally at the Trump Hotel, ended up sending me a
PDF of her approved application for the rally. And on it, very literally, it said, the deep
state and human trafficking and their crimes.
And, you know, who approves these things and why would they approve it?
And then, you know, additionally to that, my second question is, there were some unmarked white vans that were repairing a light and a lot of those guys had, you know, very, like, let's say, zoom lens Cameras, for no apparent reason.
Do you think that there's coordination between the people who approved it and them?
Or like, what's that process like?
Yeah, that's a great question.
You know, I don't have a huge amount of information in the process.
I mean, I will say, obviously, for First Amendment reasons, it's pretty easy, especially on a Tuesday, to get a permit to use the mall or the other areas around the monument, especially if you're saying, Well, it's just going to be a couple hundred people, something like that.
But you know, it was interesting.
Maybe I need to get into sort of a more conspiratorial mindset because I just saw those guys and I thought, wow, what bad timing that they're repairing the light now.
And I think y'all were maybe a little more observant of what they were up to.
Well, you know, we were told by a friend of the show, we can't exactly name or explain that more, but I will say that we then corroborated it because in a Jordan Sather video, while he's interviewing someone in the background, there is one of the construction workers holding a giant DSLR with a zoom lens.
So, I mean, they weren't even trying to fucking hide it, probably because they thought there was going to be like a thousand people.
I mean, certainly the application said a thousand people.
There ended up being probably about 60 people and about 30 more, like, journalists and people undercover, just kind of there to observe the spectacle or whatever.
But yeah, I think that it's fair to say those weren't just, you know, repairmen.
And that they, you know, potentially wanted to get a good look at this stuff.
But I know the person who approved it was, you know, a park ranger.
Probably the best job you can get to just look over like a small square of lawn with no, probably not too much wildlife.
But, um, you know, do you think that that is related to the FBI memo that was leaked?
And also, what was the point of leaking an FBI memo?
You know, even if it's even if it's just like off the top of your head, you don't have to obviously commit to any anything there.
But like, why would the FBI leak this memo?
What's the point of that?
Yeah, that's a good question.
So, I have a couple theories on that, and one is that the Yahoo reporter who got that seems to have some sort of, some pretty solid sourcing in the Southwest, which is I think, my understanding was I think the memo was distributed to law enforcement.
So, you know, sort of once you do that, I think pretty much anyone could leak it.
Right, right.
But yeah, I mean, it's certainly interesting.
I'm sure the light guys didn't, you know, were they, you know, doing surveillance?
You could imagine they didn't anticipate that they would be about a fifth of the attendees there.
And thus, you know, pretty obvious.
I think, you know, certainly I think the FBI appears to be ramping up its interest in Q. Now, to what extent?
Who knows?
I mean, you know, the FBI, obviously, is also very interested in the mafia and I'm sure the the
head of the mafia being a mafia crime family being allegedly murdered by a QAnon believer did not
escape their notice. So you think that the FBI is like, oh QAnon, they're secret geniuses
planning to take down the five families.
Yes, yes, yeah, maybe they're maybe they're into it.
You know, speaking of the park service, it was a funny thing.
Before the rally started, some kind of very uniform park service guys came over and were just sort of checking out the setup.
And everyone started saying to them, they were like, do you trust the plan?
And they were asking them if they had queue clearance and all this stuff.
And the guys were just like, what?
Yeah, what?
Excuse me?
I, uh, I'm actually a character in Sim Park, sir.
Exactly.
Well, I mean, you know, it's a big thing, obviously, with Q people to think that the government and government employees, especially sort of uniformed agencies, are, like, secretly on their side, especially the rank and file.
And so in this case, there was a lot of trying to convince these guys to get into Q. I was talking to someone else who claimed that someone from the Secret Service had come over and said, everyone in the Secret Service and Trump agrees with you.
I said, did that really happen?
And he was like, oh yeah.
Oh, even he wasn't really standing up for it with vigor?
Right, that's exactly right.
So, I mean, okay, so you cover this stuff, you know, we cover this stuff, so we have some enjoyment or some interest in this movement, and so maybe, you know, we're not like particularly trying to get this thing to stop, even though we know that it is a net negative.
But, you know, when the media covers an extremist movement, it kind of has to walk the fine line between providing relevant information to the public, but also not amplifying the movement itself.
What do you think would be a good approach to do this if your goal were to diminish the effect of QAnon?
Right, I mean, I think it's obviously a complicated issue.
I mean, I know around the Florida rally, there were a lot of people saying, oh, you know, why are you covering QAnon?
You're only providing, you know, fuel for them and stuff like that.
And, you know, I think my answer to that would be that, and it's certainly one you all have come to as well, I think, You know, at the point where people are getting murdered, where, you know, highways are being shut down, where obviously I think some amount of the electorate sort of having their mind poisoned, you know, I think that that's an issue I think voters need to be aware of and citizens.
On the other hand, I think, you know, generally focusing, you know, obviously you want to say the claims made by QAnon are nonsense.
pretty high up in the story.
And I think you want to focus on the real world effects for the most part rather than
sort of the…I think the risk is saying, and this was more of an issue when we were
still getting cue clues, but saying something like, well now QAnon people believe this.
Or like now QAnon…like if news happens and then you say, well people think…like oh
the latest QAnon thing is Adam Schiff, you know, murdered somebody or something like that.
I think in that way you end up, you do end up promoting it.
Is there anything, by the way, you think we haven't touched on, like, from the day of the rally?
You know, I think the end of the rally really kind of summed it up when, you know, they made it an open mic moment, which is always, like, you know, for my purposes, very interesting at these rallies.
And, you know, in terms of, because then you get some people who are a little less sort of camera ready.
Uh, and a little more, uh, a little less restrained in what they're going to say.
Uh, and you know, I don't know if y'all were still there at this point, but this guy who gets up and sort of starts reading from his sort of like personal interpretation of the Bible.
Oh yeah.
Right after the group photo and he's just going on and on and on and then one of the organizers sort of tries to take the mic back after what must have been like 10-15 minutes and he just goes, you know, nope and just keeps going for it.
I mean, that really I think showed you an interesting clash between the, you know, sort of your more establishment QAnon world, if you could say that, and really I think a lot of kind of the wilder energies, you know, that are behind it.
Okay, and so another question I have is, they tend to call Donald Trump G.O.D.I.S., you know?
They think he's this kind of, this figure, this infallible figure, and that the question itself, you know, please ask the question, please ask the question, is predicated on, if Trump answered yes or no, that would be the truth.
I mean, what is the role of this kind of cult of personality around Trump in shaping something like QAnon, in shaping something like the MAGA movement?
And is this something that you think is new to the American political landscape or that we've been dealing with for a while in some shape and form?
Yeah, you know, I think in many ways, the whole thing is sort of central to QAnon, obviously.
I think it is managed to, sort of the force of Trump's personality and his appeal to a certain amount of the electorate brought in a lot of voters, obviously, who were not traditional GOP voters, and that then, I think, That has sort of prepared them to get into sort of other more outlandish stuff or maybe who are less willing to accept if the GOP came out or some senators said QAnon's ridiculous.
I mean, I think more fundamentally, I think QAnon, at least a segment of it, is sort of driven by an unstated disappointment in Trump.
I think these are a lot of people who sort of both bought into Trump's campaign promises that were obviously not going to happen, like making Mexico pay for the wall or bringing all these manufacturing jobs back.
But I think on the other hand, it's also people who sort of bought into his unspoken promise that their own personal lives were going to have these big resurgences.
So, for example, you know, at the QAnon march I went to, you know, it was people who, you know, this woman's son was autistic and he was getting, you know, having a rough time in school, but she expected Trump to beat the cabal and get the cure for autism or a guy who didn't have health insurance and couldn't afford cancer treatment.
But, you know, he felt sure that, let's say, in a couple of months, Trump would beat the cabal and get cancer, a cancer cure.
So, I think it's basically, and of course the answer to QAnon, right, is that there's this deep state and the reason Trump can't accomplish this stuff isn't because he was lying to his voters or that he's not that effective, but it's that, you know, that there's this kind of like epically, you know, centuries-old conspiracy arrayed against him.
So, yeah, I mean, I think sort of a commitment and a desire not to feel disappointed with Trump is a huge part of QAnon.
People can follow you at Will Sommer, that's S-O-M-M-E-R, on Twitter, and they should subscribe to your Right Richter newsletter.
They can find it on the Daily Beast.
Thanks a lot for joining us.
Absolutely, thanks for having me.
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Thanks.
Listener, until next week, may the Deep Dish bless you and keep you.
It's not a conspiracy, it's fact.
And now, today's Auto-Q.
So?
I think that answered everything.
A little too well.
Does everything have a sinister motive in your world?
Yours too, you just don't know it.
Okay, enough.
Don't listen to this guy.
Everything's conspiracies with him.
Not conspiracies.
Conspiracy.
Singular.
Reaching back to ancient Egypt, there's been a single cabal of powerful individuals directing the course of human history.
But the common man prefers to believe they don't exist, which aids their success.
