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March 13, 2023 - Dennis Prager Show
01:28:31
Inner Space
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Welcome to the podcast.
Julie Hartman.
It's Dennis and Julie.
No question in my mind there is nothing like this in American media.
I can't say there's nothing like this in the world's media because how would I know?
Maybe in Tibet they have this age difference and two different sexes and talking about the most honest things in life.
But if I had to bet on it, this is unique.
Well, I would like to say that in addition to this show being unique, what's really unique is this candy, which, by the way, this seems like an ad.
It's not.
I mean, I guess it is.
It sort of is an ad for this, but we're not getting paid to advertise this.
Right.
Dennis gave me this candy before the show, or more aptly, I stole it from his pile here.
You didn't steal it.
I heard you say, may I take one?
I said, may I take one as I was taking one.
That's true.
This is so good.
That is hilarious.
It's a sucking candy.
It's a Regal Crowns.
It's like sour candy.
Oh, they have sour apple, lemon.
This is grape.
They have cherry.
I know of four flavors.
Is this the same as the cinnamon candy that you have?
No, that's Reeds.
Okay, so I know that this is not what we're probably going to talk about today because we talk about it all the time.
But speaking of hobbies...
Yes.
So...
I just want to let you know, give you a little update, give the audience a little update.
I have become so into classical art because of Robert Florzak.
Oh, wow.
Just looking up pieces of classical art and zooming in, and there's this really cool app.
Yes.
And by the way, this is apropos, not just of our conversation about hobbies, but sober fun.
Right.
So there's this app called Google Arts and Culture, and you can zoom into a painting.
And do they comment on it?
Is there commentary?
I'm sure there is commentary, but what's cool about it is you can take a Peter Bruegel piece and zoom in up to a centimeter close.
It's amazing.
That's number one.
Another sober hobby, of course.
Oh, God.
Bingo.
Congrats.
Now I'm forgetting what it is.
I have another sober hobby that I've been...
Oh!
Oh!
Fountain ink pens.
I've been researching fountain ink pens more.
Thanks to that time at your house where we had so much fun looking at them.
So I was thinking, should I just...
I want to buy you one.
I know.
Thank you.
Well, okay.
I wouldn't say it to show I'm a great guy.
But you're welcome.
I want to buy you one.
And I asked you two months ago to choose one.
From a staggering assortment.
He did.
Right.
No, no, no, no.
I'm not blaming you.
It's enormous.
Maybe I should just buy you one.
A starter.
You'll get used to it, and then you'll have a better idea of what you want.
I mean, you are the expert.
I am the expert.
But the reason why I bring this up, A, of course, to update you, and B, just now I was thinking...
I should make it a hobby to try different fun candies.
It seems like that's sort of your clandestine hobby.
How did you discover reeds, cinnamon, and this?
Knowing your own nature is fun.
Unless you have really dark sides.
We all have non-noble sides.
Not necessarily really dark.
But anyway, I hadn't thought of that as a hobby.
I have massive joy in trying new things and seeing which I like the most.
I do that with cigars.
Everybody asks me who cares about this, what's your favorite cigar?
And I have a good answer.
What's your favorite food?
Because there's no answer to that.
There's no answer to what is your favorite food.
And even if there were, let's say you said ice cream.
You wouldn't eat ice cream every day.
You'd get sick of it.
So I don't want to smoke the same cigar every day.
And I write with different pens.
But in any event, you're right.
To come to the one you now love, I have gone through, I've kissed a lot of frog-like sucking candies.
They're good for the throat.
They leave a good taste in your mouth.
It's virtually zero calories.
Really?
There's zero cows.
Show people the size of it.
Yeah, but hey.
How much sugar could there be in one of them?
Well, okay, this is very interesting.
How many calories do you think is in a single Hershey's Kiss?
Okay, hold on.
I pay attention to that.
Let me guess.
A single Hershey's Kiss calories?
Oh, I can't.
You're asking it as if there are a lot, and I don't believe that.
I believe that there are 50 calories.
Oh.
No, there are just 20. Oh, yeah, okay.
I think that's a lot.
You think that's a lot?
I mean, Hershey's Kisses are tiny and I eat like 50 of them in one sitting.
50 times 20 is a thousand calories.
Oh, if you eat 50. And I do.
I'll eat two.
Well, Mazel Tov.
So you're right.
Thank you.
Mazel Tov.
I know, people are probably thinking I'm saying that because you're Jewish.
You would say it to anybody.
I end the show with Shalom.
I end her phone calls with Shalom.
And she's not even Jewish.
No, but I'm Jew Lee.
Right, J-E-W. Listen to this.
So I had a very interesting subject on my Happiness Hour, the last Happiness Hour I did.
It was a...
Remember, I've done over a thousand of them.
Isn't that amazing?
A thousand hours on happiness.
And rarely is the topic philosophical.
It's like, you know, what do you do with an obnoxious relative?
Or can you be happier than a miserable child?
I mean, the whole thing.
Okay.
Expectations.
But this one, I took a subject that I had done a few times on my Ultimate Issues Hour, where I take some...
Grant's concept applied to life.
And I said, this, however, affects happiness.
If you think people are basically good, you will be a less happy human being.
Oh, completely.
Oh, you agree?
Oh, of course.
When you ask me if I am happier as a result of becoming conservative, my answer is yes, for many reasons.
But one of the ones that I list is that I... I have come to understand the tragic nature of life.
Instead of trying to resist it and pretend like it doesn't exist, as many on the left do, it paradoxically makes you happier when you understand That's it.
That's right.
Doing what the left does, which is, oh, that doesn't exist, or that's toxic masculinity, or women have the same proclivity to sex as men do.
That's right.
I totally agree with you.
That's a very good example.
I may use that on the happiness hour or a male-female hour.
I mean, I've done it a lot of times, male sexual nature.
But in terms of, it's bad news.
The first time and the second and even maybe third time you mull it over if you're a woman.
Right.
But over time, you are a much happier woman because you then understand.
It is not true ignorance is bliss.
Ignorance is bliss for a certain period of time.
Right.
But not over a lifetime.
And also...
I guess true ignorance is bliss, but with regard to male sexuality, no one is really fully ignorant of it.
They know to an extent that it exists, but they're trying to push themselves away.
Right.
So here's the other one.
That's a perfect example.
And the one I was talking about on the Happiness Hour was human nature is not basically good.
I always have to add it for people who do not follow.
My point, clearly, I'm not saying we're basically evil.
If we were basically evil, then there would be no good people.
But we're not basically good.
I mean, that's so clear and obvious.
And why does it make you happier?
So I gave three reasons.
This you'll like.
This is how my brain thinks always.
Oh, I know.
Well, there were three.
There were 14. Like in my commentary of the Bible, I have, I think, 18 reasons why the Torah changed the world.
Well, for every chapter, you have five reasons, you know, or three reasons.
Yeah, that's how you organize.
And it's really, really effective.
Very effective.
For retention.
Right.
Oh, exactly.
So why will it make you happier?
One is you are far less likely to be constantly disappointed by people.
If you assume people are basically good, you'll just keep getting smacked in the face by life.
If you don't assume people are basically good, then not only are you less frequently disappointed, you are far more frequently exhilarated.
Oh, I met a good person.
Wow, am I lucky.
Okay.
Number two, if you know human nature is not basically good, you will fight your own nature.
And you can't be happy if you don't fight your own nature.
And number three is knowing human nature is flawed, you'll give your friends, your spouse, slack.
You'll understand.
I can't...
There's no such thing as a friend who's perfect or a spouse who's a perfect person.
They could be great and terrific, and I have one, but there's no such thing.
Even I'm not, you know, I'm joking.
Of course I'm not perfect.
But my point is, when you realize what human nature is, Back to your subject, you'll find this fascinating.
I said on one or more of my male-female hours, if your husband has the opportunity to be unfaithful, like he takes a lot of business trips, let's say, and he's faithful, periodically just say, Honey, I want you to know your being faithful doesn't go unnoted by me.
I don't take it for granted.
That's very interesting.
You know, a lot of women would react differently than I am right now.
Oh, they would loathe it.
Oh, my God.
They would say, so should I thank my husband for not beating me?
That's correct.
That is exactly what they would say.
But it's different.
Yes.
And I take your point.
I take your point.
And it's hard.
That's to your credit.
Well, look, as we were talking about last week, when I had that great dinner with Anne, where we were talking, Anne is a friend of mine, and Dennis introduced me to her through the Torah minion.
And we were talking, we were disagreeing about the situation in Ukraine, and she has relatives who are in Ukraine and from Ukraine, and she wasn't getting emotional.
I just kept thinking, I will...
Not that I ever struggled with this, but her behavior during that dinner made such an impression on me, and I thought, I am never, ever going to react with emotion right away.
And so, again, I take your point.
I think it's true.
But look, there's also a line, because I don't think you should go, hey, honey, thank you for not beating me.
Well, nobody would say that.
You've got to be nuts.
Well, it's not built into men to beat their wives.
It is in some men.
It is, you're right, but it is also very cultural.
Some cultures, it's the norm.
Well, I'll give you a counterexamble.
Let's put it this way.
I have to fight.
I'm a male.
I fight to be faithful.
I don't fight not to beat my wife.
Right.
Well, I'll give you a counterexamble, which also may take off some women, but whatever.
Let me take you off right now.
A man should similarly say to a woman when they're in a fight or when they're maybe out to dinner with another couple and the...
Couple said something unkind to the woman.
You know, maybe the husband would say, honey, I appreciate that you kept your emotion in check.
That's right.
Right?
Absolutely.
Because it's something that you struggle with.
Or let's say having her period affects her mood.
Right.
But she doesn't take it out on you.
It's worth saying, you know, I know this is not the best time of the month for you, but I've got to salute you for the way you're acting.
Just as you would say, and I understand that it's different, but it...
Is not dissimilar to saying to an alcoholic, I recognize that you are being very strong right now by not having this drink.
That's exactly correct.
Boy, it's so interesting.
Now you've inspired me.
I want to go say that line to a bunch of women and see how they react.
I think it would be awesome.
It'd be very revelatory.
Even if you disagree with it.
And by the way, I mean, I think I agree with you.
I'm not entirely sure.
But I do take your point.
Even if they disagree with you, they have no right to be angry by that statement or upset.
So it would be interesting to see if they would.
They mock it.
Right.
With the line that they will often say, oh, you're going to thank them periodically for not beating you?
Right.
Like they're analogous.
So back to my thing on human nature.
You agree with me?
You mean that we're happier for accepting our human nature?
Of course.
And especially with what you said for point number two, that you fight your nature better.
I know I've said this a lot, but it's something that I'm reminded of every day.
I love being able to identify malignant parts of my nature and then realize that I can change it.
I feel like that's like skydiving.
I feel like that's the coolest, most empowering thing in the world.
The other day, it was this past weekend, I really wanted to just take a break and be lazy.
Now you know why this is Dennis and Julie.
It's true.
And not just Dennis alone.
How many people...
If any age would say what you're saying, let alone at 23. I mean, I take that and I appreciate it, but another part of me is like, how does someone else not see that this is such a cool thing?
Yes, you would think that.
Right, I know.
It's fun.
Again, the parallels of our thinking blow my mind.
So I looked at it like this.
It's so much fun to explore.
This is what I said at your age to myself.
It is so great that we're exploring outer space.
Just as great as to explore inner space.
Totally.
I do deep diving into you.
I think that's why I really, and maybe a nice segue, I brought some questions today.
To ask Dennis, which is, by the way, it's not lost on me how amazing it is that I get to read this book.
I read this book years ago.
I didn't know you.
And now I'm sitting here having a show with you and I get to ask the author questions I have about the book.
It's beyond belief.
But I think I enjoy reading this book because it is like exploring myself.
I love, because it's, you say in the introduction that Genesis is the diagnosis of human nature and then the rest of the Torah is the cure.
I love reading those chapters and going, huh?
How would I react if I were Sarah in the situation with Abraham?
And I pushed my husband because I was barren to have a kid with the servant.
I like sort of going in and going, huh, what does that reveal about human nature?
What might that reveal about myself?
And then what's the prescription?
It's so fun.
It's the same thing I like exploring paintings.
It's my new hobby.
Are you going to be as alluring at 90 as Sarah was?
Oh my gosh.
I'm laughing as Sarah laughed.
That's great.
That's a great answer.
By the way, the tours are so fun.
It's really, really fun.
I know I sound nerdy, but Sarah's laughing when God tells her that she'll have a child.
And then Isaac, her son, the name means laughter.
That's right.
Oh, you're really learning it.
It does my heart good.
Well, you know what?
I know that I talk about it a lot.
It's another bingo.
We've hit so many of the bingo things so far.
For those of you, by the way, who don't know what I'm talking about, we have a Dennis and Julie bingo, which is on our Instagram, DennisJuliePod, which is very funny.
But the reason why I bring up Genesis so much and I reread it is because each time...
The more that I command a mastery of the plot, each time I can go back and find fun details that I didn't quite realize before.
The first time I read Genesis, I could tell you that Abraham and Sarah had a baby.
I don't think I could have told you that first Abraham had a baby with a servant called Ishmael and that Isaac meant laughter.
Only the second time around do I pick up on those rich details which make the story better.
That's the reason we Jews who read it every year through in 52 parts...
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And that's the thing.
What's amazing about it, and I think what...
The layers.
Yes, and find so many new things.
It's an archaeological dig.
You know, another thing that I recently found in this that you highlighted is that the way that Ishmael, again, that's Abraham's first son, and Isaac both almost die is similar.
And that they were, Ishmael was sent away from Abraham with the servant.
And then he was going to starve.
And then an angel came down and spoke to the servant, I think her name is Hagar, right?
And said, I'll give you food and left.
And then in a similar way, Isaac was going to be sacrificed.
And an angel came down.
I didn't make that point.
That's an original one to you.
No.
Trust me, you did.
You wrote it in there.
I did?
I would love to take credit for it, but I can't do that.
I don't remember all my points.
It's painful.
Okay, wait.
Sorry, I know that this is like a nerd fest, but before I ask my questions, do you remember what I sent to you a few days ago?
It was so good.
Oh, I remember it.
Dennis had this amazing line in the Torah commentary, and I want to bring it up because we were talking about Eric Metaxas' conversation with you about faith and good works.
Okay, this is the line, and I'm glad that I brought it up because you say it so eloquently.
While faith without works is dead, works without faith also ultimately die.
That is so true.
People focus so much on that first part, faith without works.
But then people don't talk about works without faith.
And that is arguably the main problem today.
Because let's say you talk to a Christian about...
The relationship between works and faith.
The Christian, because the Christian is faithful, is going to behave well.
Most Christians who you would have this debate with.
But then on the flip side, I talk to many secular people who don't have faith, and their works are collapsing.
They don't feel that they have to.
I mean, it's everywhere.
What is Drag Queen Study Hour?
Story.
Yes, sorry?
Drag Queen Story Hour.
Yeah, Story Hour.
Drag Queen...
What is Drag Queen Story Hour, if not an example of the deterioration of works in a God-free, Bible-free society that adults think it is a good thing?
To expose five-year-olds, eight-year-olds to men dressed as women, period.
And in doing provocative dances, second.
Right.
Agreed.
So, actually, my first question for you pertains to our faulty human nature.
So it's a nice segue.
So what do you do?
You make notes to ask me while you read?
I love that.
You love it that you get me to ask, and I love it that you do well.
It's so cool that somebody of your caliber, and I'm not stroking you, obviously.
It means a tremendous amount to me.
Okay, go ahead.
Well, also, I mean, this is also very selfish on my part.
Like, I want to be the best person that I can be.
I want to reach my potential, and I really feel like if I get this, I'm better equipped to do that.
You want to be the best person you could be.
Millions of kids in America for two, three generations, be the best you can be.
But your best is not the same as that best.
Your best is moral best.
Ethical, intellectual best.
Their best is amorphous.
Athletic.
Well, athletic, professional, career.
Right.
It's not even clear what it is.
Best what?
I would like to ask that of a parent who says, oh, be the best you can be, son, daughter.
What do you mean by that?
It's sort of do what you want to do and be the best at it.
That's right.
And you're right.
That's not how I view it.
By the way, it isn't even, no, it isn't even be the best at it.
Do whatever you want and that means you will be doing the best.
Yes, yes.
You don't have to be better than anybody.
So, first one, and you know I have been just loving this story of late, the Tower of Babel story, chapter 11. I love it.
I think that's one of the best in the entire story.
It's brilliant.
It is brilliant.
So, I'd like to ask you this question, and by the way, it's the same question that I would ask of the Garden of Eden story.
Well, you did, about God coming down and saying, let us?
Oh, no, I don't think that's what it was.
Okay, I'm sorry.
No, no, that's okay.
One of the things that I really appreciate that you write in this Torah commentary, just to, you know, reason number 8,000 why I like it, is that you say that...
That after Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge, God comes down and he doesn't levy punishment.
He states consequences.
That's right, yes.
That women will have pain during childbirth, that men will have to toil the field, etc.
And I really appreciate it, and it made sense to me, that distinction you made between consequence and punishment.
Because God created men this way to have both the proclivity to sin and also the proclivity to overcome it.
And it's a similar sort of thing here in the Tower of Babel story because the story starts out with these people coming together wanting to build this tower in the sky to make a name for themselves.
It's a little weird because, like, God created human beings to be that way.
God created us to seek fame, to seek making a name for ourselves.
And so when he comes down and he says that he, you know, he says if this is what human beings are doing with just one language, then nothing that they wish to do will be out of their reach, and he confounds their language.
The way that that's written also, not unlike chapter 3 of Genesis with the Garden of Eden story, it's also not positioned as a punishment.
Positioned as a consequence.
Like, I need to scatter them about the world so that they don't do this.
So I guess my question is, why did God make us this way if he was just going to kind of come down and correct it?
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
So I've dealt with this internally and in writing and speaking, but especially internally.
So I'll give you a different variation back to one of our favorite themes.
And then back to the specifics here.
So my father, who philosophized at the Shabbat table, that's where I heard what he thought.
We almost didn't speak during the week.
I'm not saying it's good or bad.
I'm just saying a fact of my upbringing.
Anyway, from high school on, I didn't eat at home during the week.
I ate out and did what I wanted at night.
But Shabbat Friday night and Saturday meals, which, as you know, are hours and hours long, they don't end, essentially, is a time for every type of talk, the most serious and the most fun, or both.
Often the serious is fun.
My father spoke about sexual matters with the ease with which you would speak about the weather.
It was a part of his nature, and I inherited it.
I was either...
I either inherited it genetically or inherited it through culture.
And our Shabbat crew inherited it too.
That's right.
So it's not common, but it's not unique to my dad.
But it was not common at all.
He was very open.
Anyway.
He would say, and he not only believed in God, he loved God.
And that's different for me.
I believe in God, and I find it hard to love God.
We could talk about that, but that's not my issue.
I just wanted to be open and honest.
So he would say, this God-lover of my father, Orthodox Jew as well, and he would say, there's one thing I just don't understand.
Why did God make the male sex drive so strong?
We could have easily reproduced if men had half the sex drive.
They'd still want to reproduce.
Even if you look at men's proclivity to violence, I mean, not that God, in your dad's example, God wants.
Right, but it is built in.
He could have reduced a lot.
That's right.
And created a lot less, fewer issues.
Look, I'll tell you, I think that, I agree with my dad.
In large measure on the sex question, but I have it really, really deeply when I read about men torturing other human beings.
Why isn't there a mechanism that just shuts it off at a certain point of evil?
So, alright, so the only answer that I have come up with, and it's intellectually but not emotionally satisfying, there is no emotionally satisfying answer, is That this full possibility of infinite evil is matched by infinite good.
That the human being can do anything.
And that's one.
I have a few thoughts.
Another one on the sex drive.
I have met men, not often, but I have met men where I thought their sex drive was half of what a man that age would normally have.
I didn't know it from personal experience.
They were not gay, and I'm not gay, and I didn't have sex with them.
You're not?
No, I'm just letting you know.
And so I can't say, of course I didn't know it from personal experience or from speaking to his wife, but...
We have met people where you sense they have a low drive.
They're low energy.
They have low drive.
So maybe that drive is what drives men.
Well, certainly that's, forgive me.
No, no, please, please.
But Freud said that the work we do, we men do, is the sublimated sex drive.
You can't go for polygamy.
Have adultery.
So what are you going to do with it?
And you channel it into work.
There are certain things like that, male sex drive, that I can sort of see the wisdom or the design behind it.
That it certainly has its downsides.
But certainly with what you're saying, I think it's true that what facilitates men's energy is their sex drive.
But as far as, you know, something like this, you know...
Where, in this Tower of Babel story, that we have a proclivity to be greedy and fame-seeking.
That story, as much as I love it, also sort of struck me as, like, God is, like, sending us through a maze only to, halfway through, know that we're going to reach, hit a wall, and, you know, like, why...
If he made us this way to be fame-seeking and he lets everyone build the tower just to knock it down, why did he even implant the greediness in the first place?
Virtually every one of these crappy aspects of human nature has a good side to it.
True.
So you want to marry a man or raise a boy that does want to make a name for himself, but not through stupidity like tall buildings.
Right.
Maybe through kindness.
Maybe through symphony writing.
But that drive, I'm happy Beethoven wanted to make a name for himself.
I'm the beneficiary with his awesome music.
Right.
Well, one could respond.
God could make men such that they want to create a name for themselves, but he could get rid of the stupid part.
He also implanted the stupid-seeking part.
Then we're robots.
Then we're robots.
Well, exactly.
I mean, that makes sense.
I take that.
Okay, shall we move on?
Yeah, yeah.
By the way, I don't mean to design this like a seminar.
No, no, no.
Look, everything comes up.
I'm glad beyond words that you're doing this.
And also, I think it facilitates a good discussion.
Yes, of course it does.
It's got everything in there.
This is my life's understanding of life.
Look, I got to tell you, and I... I feel really self-conscious saying this because A, our viewers make fun of us for complimenting and B, we make fun of us for complimenting.
This is extraordinary.
This is life-changing stuff.
The Bible's life-changing stuff and the way that you explain it is life-changing stuff.
I know it is.
There is nothing...
I say it like I didn't write it.
And honestly, again, and I'm sorry.
I'm really sorry to be doing this because if I were the audience at home, my ears would be bleeding because of the compliments.
I'm sorry.
Throughout my day, no task is more important in my life right now than reading this and knowing it.
I think that will help me in my career.
I think it will help me in my personal life.
I think it will help me grow morally.
Every single day, if I didn't read this...
I swear to God, I know it sounds suck-uppy, and it probably is.
But I feel like I didn't push myself forward.
It's really sad that you feel that way.
Okay, I don't take it.
Nobody takes it that way.
Anyway, what are you going to get from me?
What are you seeking?
A higher position?
More money?
1% of your commission.
Okay, let's go on.
Blessing, or I guess the covenant that God establishes with Abraham.
Very important to note.
I know you get this, but I want to say it to the audience.
And I love this about the Torah.
It's probably my favorite thing.
The Torah doesn't start off with the Jews.
The Torah starts off making it clear that God is a God of all humanity.
He views everyone as equal.
And when he is establishing the covenant with the Jews, it's to, as you say, it's making an agreement, I will keep you alive if you keep me alive.
You are the chosen people, not that you are superior, but you are chosen.
Yes.
We've chosen to do a task, which is to bring the Torah to the world.
That's really important because prior to reading this, I thought, how arrogant the Jews think they're the chosen people.
You know, they're the best out of everyone, but that's not what it means here.
Anyway, chosen never meant best, aside from everything else.
By the way, just to note, the universality of the Torah is awesome.
Who saves Moses?
A non-Jew.
Who is the greatest single advisor to Moses?
Well, so the non-Jew's daughter is Pharaoh's daughter, which is unbelievable in itself.
Pharaoh's the villain.
And the villain, it's like Hitler's daughter saved Jews.
It would be analogous.
Because he wanted the Hebrew baby boys drowned.
Who is the greatest advisor?
Who saves Moses again, professionally?
Jethro, a Midianite priest.
This one you'll love.
I get the chills whenever I tell this.
Why didn't God give the Torah, or specifically the Ten Commandments, in Israel?
He gave it in the desert.
That's every man's land.
God did not give the Torah in the Jews' land.
It's for everybody.
That's a really excellent point.
That's true.
And even just, I mean, the ones you mentioned are more important, but you also highlight the more subtle points where God doesn't anoint always the first child.
In fact, in a lot of the stories, Cain and Abel be one of them.
The second child is the one that...
I mean, there are so many ways that he confounds the...
The moral order of the day.
Actually, that's correct.
In every instance, the younger sibling outshines the older to undo the notion that the older is better.
Moses and Aaron, Jacob and Esau, Joseph and his brothers.
Isaac and Ishmael.
And you mentioned Cain and Abel.
And even the way God, you know, you actually, I was just reading it this morning, that God legislates more about fair treatment of animals in the Torah than he does about the Sabbath.
That's also morally revolutionary.
I mean, so much of it is morally revolutionary.
And by the way, we're going to move on to the questions.
And the left thinks that this is a bigoted document?
This document is equity.
They think anything that preceded them is crap.
The Constitution and the Bible are two perfect examples.
They're better than both.
It's actually, I mean, I don't think the Torah is liberal or conservative.
The Torah is moral.
The Torah is truth.
I think it would amaze so many people.
Actually, I'm going to do this.
I'm going to write down some bullet points of things.
Bet you didn't know this about the Bible, what you just mentioned, and hand it to people.
Because these people that wag their fingers and they say that the Bible is so awful and so antiquated, they've never read it.
Of course not.
They've never read a word.
Right.
So anyway, okay, let's go to this question.
So with the covenant with Abraham, where the Jews are established as the chosen people, God never calls them the Jews.
Right.
In that chapter.
Well, they're not the Jews even in the Torah.
I don't know why I said spoiler alert.
That's not what I meant to say.
What did I mean to say?
Oh, sorry if this is a stupid question.
How do we know that the blessing is to the Jews?
It's to the seed of Abraham.
It's to the kin of Abraham, you said?
Seed.
The seed of Abraham.
Right.
But again, how do we know that that's the Jews?
And by the way, is this why they call Christianity and Islam and Judaism Abrahamic religions?
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So can you explain how we know it's the Jews?
Right.
Well, we know it's the Jews because he took the Israelites out of Egypt, and that's the people that he says, you shall be for me a chosen people, a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation.
Not the Ishmaelites.
He doesn't say it to them.
Right, but starting in Genesis.
Yeah, but you have to read the rest of the story.
If the Torah stopped with them, you could think it's those who are all seed of Abraham, including Ishmael.
So, related question.
Well, actually, first I'd like you to tell me, please, why they're all referred to as Abrahamic religions.
But before I forget, why did God not allow the chosen people to go through Ishmael?
He was very clear he was going to go through Isaac.
Okay, well, wait.
So, you might as well ask, why did God...
Choose Abraham.
We don't have a clue.
I'm sorry to interrupt you.
You actually sort of argue otherwise here.
You say originally you don't know why God chose Abraham, but then you see what kind of man he is.
All right, that's fair.
But he could have chosen Noah, obviously.
The fact is, it doesn't matter whom God chose.
God could have chosen, you know...
A guy in Mongolia.
Fair enough.
And that would have been the Israelites.
Right.
And the chosen, the holy land could have been Ulaanbaatar in Mongolia.
I'm not kidding.
I know you're not.
It's just funny.
So they would be the bearers of the Torah, and they would carry on, hopefully, the mission of bringing the world to the Torah.
The irony, as I point out to Jews all the time, is it's mostly Christians who brought the world to the Torah.
The world knows of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy because of Christians.
The Jews gave it to the world, but the Christians spread it.
Look, I'm a Christian lover, as are you.
I'm a Christian.
I mean, I was born a Christian myself.
But, I mean, in large part, that's due to the fact that Jews are so small as a people.
Well, and persecuted terribly.
They were preoccupied with surviving, not spreading.
That's correct.
Yes, it's all correct.
But, by the way, today...
I do blame Jews.
They should be spreading the Torah.
I can't disagree.
Men give birth that it is said by many Jews, not just non-Jews, obviously massive numbers of non-Jews, the great majority.
Yes.
If you take the Torah seriously, you cannot say men give birth.
You cannot say sex is not binary.
Well, the thing that bothers me, and this is a total tangent, is that a lot of...
And by the way, this is not to pick on the Jews.
I would say the same of Christians and others who may do this, but what I dislike is when Reformed Jews specifically say that, sort of twist the words of the Bible.
I'm not certainly trying to say all Reformed Jews do this, but...
I know a fair amount of Reformed Jews who do not take the Torah seriously and who sort of say that the Torah says things that it doesn't.
And I just think that's an affront to Judaism.
It's one thing to not believe or not practice, but don't distort it.
It's as common in Christianity.
Of course.
I'm not saying this to defend the Jews.
I'm saying it to show that the problem is gigantic.
Yes, it's not just pretending to the Jews.
We Americans do it with our Constitution.
People do it all the time.
Exactly.
But we're talking about chosenness.
We're talking about bringing the Torah.
That's why I mentioned it.
That's why, you know my dream, and I'm a little annoyed with myself for not really pushing PragerU to do this.
For the record, I don't set policy at PragerU.
I don't do hiring at PragerU.
He actually doesn't.
I was shocked by that when I met you.
It's a very healthy thing that I don't.
I mean, obviously I'm the public figure of PragerU.
I'm Prager.
It makes perfect sense.
But I'm not the runner of it.
And I don't want to be.
But it doesn't mean I don't have any clout.
I do have some clout at PragerU.
And my dream is to put up billboards.
We have the budget.
Is to put up billboards.
I know this idea and I love it.
That, you know.
Just reminder, God judges you.
He doesn't only love you.
You say that you're upset with yourself for not pushing that on PragerU.
I witnessed you do it at the PragerU gala in November of 2022 on stage with Jordan Peterson.
You said, I'm looking at you, Alan and Marissa.
So anyway, you did your part.
I have to do it off stage.
So with the Abrahamic religions, can you explain that?
Well, those who regard Abraham as their progenitor, as their father, as it were.
So that's Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.
But that's fine.
It sounds good.
I don't find all that much meaning in it.
Because Judaism and Islam don't share much, to be honest.
It's not anti-Islam.
Judaism and Buddhism don't share much.
But Judaism and Christianity share...
A Bible, the Old Testament, there are no two religions that have that.
That's why Judeo-Christian is factually accurate.
Right.
So I understand that the reason why they are called Abrahamic religions is because each traces its patriarch to Abraham.
But do Muslims think that they are the sort of chosen line, if you will?
Yes, that is correct.
They are the only ones who got the message from God right.
Jews and Christians distorted it, and Muhammad, through the angel Gabriel from Allah, made it accurate.
So, again, disclaimer, that's what I wanted to say instead of spoiler alert.
Disclaimer, stupid question.
But Muslims don't abide by the Torah.
I mean, I know they don't, but they don't.
That's right.
But then where would they be getting that from if not the Torah?
The chosenness.
The Abrahamic line and chosenness.
No, no.
They call Jews and Christians people of the book.
I don't know if they call Christians.
I assume they do, yes.
But I know they call Jews that.
The people of the book.
And the book meaning the Bible.
They don't say the Bible is all wrong.
They say that Jews and Christians tampered with it.
So they sort of...
They take what they want.
They take what they want.
Okay.
All right.
Fair enough.
That makes sense.
And before we move on, do Christians see themselves as the continuation of the chosen people through Abraham?
Okay.
So this is a great question.
So there are two views that have prevailed in Christianity.
Are we the new Israel or are we the second Israel?
Yeah, that's my question.
The American founders said second Israel.
America was the second Israel.
But the first one is the Jews.
But there have been Christians, Catholic and Protestant, who have said, since Jesus came, we are the chosen, as it were.
We are Israel.
The ancient Israel is now irrelevant.
We're the new Israel through Christ.
So that's the way...
So it's been a mixed reaction.
And the second is inauthentic biblically and had horrific results for Jews because they were often persecuted as a result.
I'm sorry, the what had...
Horrific results for the Jews.
No, I know, but what did?
The idea that we have replaced you.
It's called replacement theology.
Oh, yes, yes.
Okay.
No, I understand that, but...
As far as, like, almost like the genetic line, like, do Christians see themselves as a continuation of the Israelite progeny of Abraham, or do they...
No.
Okay.
They're the theological progeny.
Got it.
Okay.
Oh.
But arguably, aren't we all the genetic progeny of Abraham?
You mean theological progeny?
Genetic.
I mean, there weren't...
Isaac married Abraham's niece or something.
That's the Arab world.
But it doesn't count for...
If your ancestors came from Germany, Denmark, you look Northern European.
So if your ancestors came from Northern Europe, they're not the progeny of Abraham.
So Christians don't view themselves as the genetic progeny, the theological, whereas Jews view themselves as the genetic and muscles.
Although even that needs to be understood because you can convert to Judaism.
Right.
Ruth does in the Book of Esther.
It's my middle name.
Is it?
It is.
Maybe it was foretelling something.
Maybe it was.
But anyway, she said, and it was great, that's really, that's true conversion.
She said, your, I'm trying to think it was God or people who came first, but it doesn't matter.
Your people are my people, your God is my God.
Because Jews are both a people.
Which is not true for Christians.
Christians are a religion only.
Jews are a religion.
Ethnicity.
Jews are an ethnicity.
Yeah, but you can convert to it.
So it's not an ethnicity.
Anyway, there are black Jews.
Ethiopian Jews are Jews.
Right.
And Arab Jews.
Yeah, which is half of Israel.
The majority in Israel, right.
But do Muslims view themselves as both the theological and the genetic descendant?
Yes, that's correct.
Interesting.
Okay, wow.
Well, I got a lot of...
Yeah, this is a great learning session.
That's true.
Yeah, because Christians, it's theological.
Jews and Muslims, it's genetic and theological.
Right.
We should make a Venn diagram.
Okay.
So, speaking of Israel, obviously this is an incredibly contested subject.
The assigning of the land.
Right.
Repeatedly in Genesis, God says that he's going to assign this land...
I have here a quote, I will assign this land to your offspring.
I have chapter 17, chapter 15, later in chapter 15, just many, many, many different examples of it.
I just want to read one just so we have it.
Yep.
I am the Lord God who brought you out of your, or you are.
Or, that's where Abraham came from, or of Chaldees.
To assign this land to you as a possession.
I mean, just to read an example, but God says that many times.
So then what's interesting is that later in Genesis, I think it's like chapter 22 or 23, after Sarah dies, Abraham is looking for a cave to bury her.
And that chapter makes it incredibly clear that Abraham purchases the cave in canon.
Canaan, sorry, excuse me, I know better, in Canaan for Sarah.
And it also says in that chapter, and you make a strong note of this, that Abraham legally purchased the cave and the surrounding area.
So then you write that this is an example that even though God promised something, you as a human being have to take action to bring that into fruition.
You just can't let God, you know, think God owes you something and just let it fall out of thin air.
So my question for you is, Did God promise it, and then in that chapter was when Abraham kind of sealed the deal and bought the land?
Or basically, is that where Jews trace their right to live in Israel, to Abraham officially, legally getting that land?
Or do they trace it to the mere fact that God intended and wanted them to be in the land?
I think both.
But of course, he didn't buy the whole land.
He just bought the area around her burial site.
Right.
That doesn't really mean that he got all of Canaan.
No, right, correct.
So then how do Jews today claim biblically that the land is theirs?
Because, well, even putting aside God's promise, let's say you're an atheist and a Jew, which exists because Jews are a people, you could be an atheist American, right?
You could be an atheist Jew.
The only nation, as a nation, that ever had sovereignty in that land since the Canaanites, which is 3,000 years ago, in 3,000 years, the only sovereign states in that area were Jewish.
No, I comprehend that.
I'm talking biblically, because there are a lot of Jews in Israel.
Oh, I was excluding biblically.
No, no, I'm asking specifically biblically.
God promised, I mean, the same God who gave the Ten Commandments and we listened to.
One listens to is the God that said, I want you to live in this land.
And by the way, with all the problems that moderns have with that, there is another way of looking at this.
Just that land.
Right.
Islam went in one generation and took over all of North Africa.
Convert or we kill you.
There's no...
There's no concept, let alone practice, of that in Judaism.
Outside the borders of Israel, Jews have no right for one millimeter of the world's earth.
And they haven't gotten it either.
God knows.
Right.
Nor do they ever think about having it.
Right.
God, for whatever reason, we don't have an answer to that.
God wanted this area of the world to embody his experiment in ethical monotheism and in holiness.
And if you don't act decently, I'll kick you out.
He keeps saying that in the Torah.
And I say this without even trying to make any implications about the conflict or anything, but when you go to Israel, you can really feel the holiness.
You can understand why God wanted some religious people to live there.
And you're saying this, it's important that people understand, you're saying this as a non-Jew, and not a particularly religious non-Jew.
You didn't have a strong Christian upbringing.
And especially, I went a year ago, I was less religious than I am now.
Right, yes.
Even my secular atheist friends who were on the trip said that going to Israel challenged their belief because they could feel it.
Wow, that's amazing.
If someone said that to me a few years ago, oh, you can feel it, I'd be like, oh, you can feel it.
Oh, great.
It's true.
And it's not explainable.
No, it's not.
But I agree with you.
It's so funny when I say things now.
It's not New Jersey East.
It's not.
And it's not LA East or Central.
But I just want to, before we move on, sometimes when I speak, I think about how myself five years ago would react.
Wow.
And I wouldn't be disgusted, but I would be like...
What's going on here?
You're weirdos.
Yeah.
Yes.
I think that's really important, and I want you to preserve that voice in you forever.
Oh, it's there.
Because you will always be effective then.
I remember fighting with someone about abortion.
Three years ago.
And saying that it was really, really bigoted for someone to be pro-life.
Me!
Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, it's...
You were normal.
Now you're an outlier.
That's right.
Bravo!
Or technically, brava.
This is why this is so rich, because this one example I have a million questions about in each are different fascinating theological strands.
So, okay, we've kind of come to a conclusion about the land assignment.
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But now I want to talk to you about whether God knows or doesn't know about what human beings are going to do.
And I asked you about this over the phone.
We had an interesting discussion about it, but I'd like to raise it again here because there's a part I'm still confused about.
So let's take this example.
God repeatedly promises Abraham the land of Israel.
I will give this to you.
Your inhabitants will be here.
When I asked you on the phone, doesn't that mean that God knows what will happen?
You say, no, that's a promise.
You know, just as God says, I will deliver you from the land.
Your offspring will be strangers in a land that they do not know, but then I will deliver them after four centuries.
You say that God's making a promise and obviously he knows if he's going to fulfill a promise.
But he has, I don't know if this makes sense, but he, that sort of does require knowing in the future that he can fulfill his promise.
It's...
And I suppose that makes sense because God, out of anyone, can...
Like, I don't know.
Even if I make a promise to someone, I'm a human being and I truly don't know unless I do it if I can fulfill the promise.
God is different.
But do you see what I mean?
It still sort of implies...
Well, God knows what he'll do, but he doesn't know necessarily what we do.
I'm conflicted.
Well...
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but another example is Sodom and Gomorrah.
He talks about how the people there are evil.
He says the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.
That means that he knows that it will be completed.
He knows that the Amorites will have to be destroyed.
And it also means he won't intervene.
He's waiting for humans to screw up.
In this case, the Amorites.
Which is, by the way, I sort of jumped, just for clarity of the audience, different than Sodom and Gomorrah.
That's a different example.
But when he says the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete, that implies that he knows.
Not yet complete.
That he knows that it will be complete.
There are implications in both directions.
Again, to make it clear to those listening, does God know the future?
There is only one doubt, and that is the human future, because we can do what we want.
Free will.
God knows what a dog will do, because a dog is programmed by its genes and environment.
But, well, I guess to the extent that it's by its environment, I don't know, maybe God does or doesn't know exactly what a dog will do.
By the way, these things don't bother me.
I don't care if God knows the future or not.
I only care if we have free will.
The constraints on free will are not God's knowledge of what we'll do.
The constraints on free will are our nature and our environments.
I always use the horrible example of men who are attracted to prepubescent boys or girls.
In a normal man, A prepubescent boy or a girl might as well be a giraffe.
Am I sexually attracted to a giraffe?
No.
Am I sexually attracted to a prepubescent boy or girl?
No.
It doesn't occur to most men.
Forget women, obviously.
So the guy who is attracted...
I mean, there are men who rape babies.
I mean...
Do they have free will?
And look, what I think they did is beyond belief evil.
And they deserve to be punished.
Yeah, of course.
Whether or not, no, I'm clarifying for your protection.
Totally, 100%.
But I'm bothered, I'm just bothered by the notion, do they really have free will?
I mean, what drives you to do something like that?
And do the men who want to do that, are there any men who suppress the urge?
But does God know that they're going to do that on this discussion?
I made a different subject, and I'm coming back.
No, you don't have to be sorry.
I'm glad you did that so I can clarify again.
This does not have anything to do with God.
I'm simply saying the constraints on free will are not God's omniscience.
They are human nature.
Am I clear?
In other words, people say, oh, God knows the future, then we don't have free will.
If God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow, then I can't choose not to do that tomorrow.
That's what people think who challenge the Bible.
But you can.
I mean, God can know what you'll do tomorrow.
And I still have free choice?
By the way, you are citing a rabbinic phrase, which I'm sure you'll recall when I say it to you in Hebrew.
Of course.
Right.
It's total sign.
So it's exactly what you said.
It'll crack you up.
Everything is foreseen, but permission is given.
But free choice still exists.
Okay, but this is not an entirely...
A great analogy, but...
I have some friends...
Okay, this is...
Okay.
I don't know why this is the only thing I can think of.
There were people I knew in college who liked to drink.
Okay?
And when it would come around to Saturday night, usually they'd get pretty...
Trashed, okay?
Show us the Dennis and Julie podcast.
We can only talk about God's omnipotence and knowing the future and then also bring in something.
It's just so funny.
It's just so us.
I don't know if they're going to get trashed on Saturday and need to be carried back to their room, but...
Yeah, but you would bet your bike account on it.
I understand it's not the same.
Right.
No, no, no.
I know that.
I have it on the freeway.
I'll tell you when I have it.
I'm driving in obviously one direction, the other side of the freeway, the other direction.
There's a crash on the other side.
Yes.
And all the lanes are stopped.
Right.
I know that five minutes from now, the cars that are still driving, I know they will stop.
Within five minutes.
Yes.
So they have free will not to stop.
Right, but you know they're going to do it.
But I know what they'll do, yes.
But by the way, to be totally accurate, I assume it with great...
Degree of certitude.
Right, but it's not knowing.
He may crash into the last car.
But God knowing doesn't mean that he controls it.
That's right.
Agreed.
That is correct.
So that's where the argument doesn't hold up.
I get it.
I'll tell you the only biblical verse that makes me think that God does not know what we'll do.
I know what you're going to say.
All right, so say it.
It made him saddened.
Yes.
When God saw how human beings acted, he got sad.
In the Garden of Eden.
No, no, no, no.
In the bad world that he decided eventually to destroy.
Oh, was it?
It wasn't Garden of Eden.
It was about humanity in general.
I guess someone knows their Torah better than I do, huh?
Not for long.
So when it says God got sad unto his heart, that God got sad, doesn't that imply that he was disappointed?
If you're disappointed, it means...
You didn't expect this to happen.
Right, but as you say, and if you want me to take credit for it and think it's an original thought, I will, but you did say it, you know your parents are going to die and you're still sad when it happens.
It's unclear.
And by the way, I'd just like to pause this discussion and say something, again, that you said that made an impression on me.
God created doubt.
I think God wants it to be unclear to us.
In other words...
I think God likes to create some ambiguity surrounding his existence, surrounding whether or not he knows the future, because then it requires us to do some mental gymnastics, not just so that he can sit back and eat some popcorn and watch us do the mental gymnastics, but I think the act of trying to figure it out makes you a better, stronger person.
Well, look, it makes you better, stronger just doing what we're doing, in my opinion, studying Torah, okay?
It's my favorite religious thing, much more than prayer.
But I just want to make something clear.
I'm very, very preoccupied with, in real life, what does it mean?
Whatever the it is.
Whether or not God knows what we'll do has no impact on me and how I behave.
So I rarely meditate on the issue.
That whose consequence won't affect me in either direction.
If God knows what I'll do tomorrow, or God doesn't know what I'll do tomorrow, I still have to be a good guy tomorrow.
Well, I agree with you there, and I really admire that when you say that, because I think it's the right approach.
And this may be something that you disagree with, and it's still something that I'm sort of mulling over.
I want to understand the nature of God so that I can know that God is good.
And I know that God is good because of this book, the way that he treats people, his moral revelation.
But look.
Israel means to struggle with God, and I, like anyone else, struggle with God.
And so for me, figuring this stuff out, figuring out whether or not he knows the way we're going to behave in the future, that allows me to better discern if he's a good God, because if he knows what we're going to do, but then doesn't, you know...
Stop it.
So anyway, it's not just, A, I think it's interesting, but B, it helps me understand.
You'll be very happy to know that the greatest Jewish thinker who ever lived, Rambam, known in English as Maimonides, 11th century, 12th century, and he did the greatest compendium of Jewish law.
There were 613 laws in the Torah.
And he says the first law is to know God.
It's the most important thing you can do in your life.
It really is.
And that's what I say about reading this.
It informs every other aspect of your life.
And again, if I had said that five years ago or had someone say that, I would have thought they were a quack.
Exactly, of course.
By the way, I know what you say is right.
I am far more interested in knowing what God wants than knowing God.
No, not of course.
No, I think your thing is very noble, and it follows Maimonides.
I meant both knowing God, but I think knowing God is knowing what God wants.
Well, if you knew God, you'd still need...
A compilation of do's and do nots.
Fair.
You can know God, and you will never infer from that, I have to take a day off a week from working.
But you would, because it's his revelation.
No, no, no.
It's knowing what he wants.
In other words, it's not enough to know God.
You have to know what God wants.
So before we move on from this, just...
The viewers are probably like, go on to the next question.
But here, in Genesis 15, 13, God says, know well that your offspring shall be strangers in a land not theirs, the thing I just mentioned.
Isn't that proof right there that he knows what's going to happen?
Yes.
But it isn't proof that he knows what we'll do.
But he does know what we'll do, because he knows that those people are going to enslave the Jews.
But that's all.
He doesn't know whether you will be...
A decent human being in Egypt or an indecent human being.
But that's different.
I mean, yes, it's a part of it.
Maybe he doesn't know fully what we'll do, but he knows what we will do.
Right, so yes, nobody has an issue.
Yeah, obviously.
Yes, that's correct.
I have nothing to add.
That is correct.
But it doesn't mean he knows that you will be kind to the...
You, Julie, will be kind to a stranger tomorrow.
I'm sorry to keep pushing, but doesn't it though?
Because if he knows that people are going to enslave someone else, surely he knows whether I'm going to be kind to someone tomorrow.
So does he just know the macro things?
Yes, basically.
I think that's true.
But I don't have any issue with those who believe it on the individual level.
That's why I keep saying, what difference in terms of the way I lead my life does it make?
By the way, this is so male-female because I get you as the male are like, who cares?
Let's move in.
I'm like, we need to focus on the one spot on the car window.
You're entirely right.
We are bottom line oriented.
What's the bottom line?
Yes.
That's how the male thinks.
It's like the famous, I want to cure your headache.
And at least the way the legend goes, women will say, we'll worry about that later.
First, I want you to know about my headache.
Like, this doesn't keep you up at night?
No.
Keeps me up at night is evil.
Okay, that keeps me up at night too, but this doesn't, I mean, I think about this, like, this bothers me.
This...
Of whether or not God knows what...
Yeah, it doesn't mean I won't be...
It doesn't mean I won't be religious.
No, no, no, I understand.
But it bothers me.
By the way, I actually...
I honor the fact that it bothers you.
I do.
But it doesn't bother me.
Because...
It's why you sleep better than I do.
Well, you're probably right.
That is true.
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But also because you can't answer my question.
Let's say you resolve it one way or the other.
What difference will it make in your behavior?
I agree with you.
It won't make a difference in my behavior, but it does make a difference in how I view God.
Okay, what difference will it make in how you view God?
If God knows that what is going to happen tomorrow and he doesn't do anything to stop it.
Right, because he wants to give you freedom.
You really want him to stop everything bad?
Okay, fair enough.
That's a big deal.
I emotionally want him to stop everything bad, but intellectually, it renders life meaningless.
If I can't do bad, and by the way, what level of bad?
Okay, so we'll all say, okay, so there can't be a gulag or an Auschwitz, right?
Okay, we acknowledge that.
God will stop that.
Will God stop...
Every murder?
Will God stop every bank robbery?
Will God stop every embezzlement?
Every bad-mouthing of somebody behind their back.
Well, there's also earthquakes, and I know these are the same, but there are earthquakes and there are tsunamis.
Yes, that's right.
But then it is a robot-like existence.
You might as well be a flower.
Well, I know I'm contradicting myself here, but this makes for a good intellectually rich discussion.
Even though I was saying that it doesn't make sense, like we still have free will even if God knows what we're going to do.
Now I may be going back on that.
I mean, if God knows what we're going to do...
And he created...
No, no, I can tell you how we can have free will and God knows what will do.
I mean, I thought that 10 minutes ago, so I just need to go back.
I'll defend that.
Logically, I will defend it.
God lives outside of time.
Right.
Time is relative.
That we know since Einstein.
So, God lives outside of time.
So, he knows what will happen, but in other words, he knows what you chose.
Well, okay, I'll tell you why it's sort of theological, or it poses an issue for me with God.
If God knows what's going to happen, and God knew when he was creating us, he could see...
Millennia into the future.
That we would enslave people.
That we would behead people.
Big and small, there would be horrible, horrible instances of brutality.
Why didn't he change the recipe a little bit?
And I get the whole free will thing.
I don't know the answer.
That's a toughie.
Going back to what you said, why didn't he decrease the male sex drive by 20%?
And by the way, I know I'm sort of all over the place right now.
Maybe he did.
Maybe he did change the recipe.
That's a good point.
Maybe this is us, you know?
Maybe men were total blankety-blanks before and now they're only half, you know?
Maybe we were so evil before and now we're only a percentage of that.
We don't know.
But if he does know the future...
Well, I want you to know.
So you'll love this because I know you would throw my wife as I do.
So here's an interesting one.
My wife...
Oh, I knew what you were going to say.
Sorry, oh my God, the viewer doesn't say that.
A variation on your question.
If God really knows the future, why did he save Noah?
He should have destroyed the whole world.
She actually believes that.
She thinks the amount of suffering has been so intense that it doesn't justify the continuity of the human race.
Well, I adore her and she's a very, very intellectual woman, but I totally disagree with that.
Because?
Because...
If given a choice between being born and not born, being born into, let me clarify, into being born in this world or not being born, I would rather be born.
Granted, I'm really lucky.
I have a great life.
I'm abundantly blessed.
Yeah, but if you'd have asked the people in Auschwitz or the Gulag, are you happy you were born?
They would say no.
Well, let me challenge that.
I actually disagree with you.
I think they would say that they were fighting for their lives.
Yeah, once you're born, you want to stay alive.
I think they were happy they were born, but I think they were unhappy, obviously, with the circumstances that led them to be in Auschwitz.
And you think they would say, boy, am I happy I was born?
I think they would want to be born but not have the circumstance that they were born into.
It's like the kids who, when I ask, would you save your dog or a stranger first, they say they're Dawkins' whim.
Don't change the question.
Of course they would want a world where they weren't in gulag or Auschwitz.
I still disagree because I think they...
And again, by the way, this isn't particularly...
Touchy subject to have this debate on, you know, with regard to people suffering in Auschwitz.
But I think they would...
I mean, happy you're born, but I don't think...
Happy, I don't think is the right word, and I know you're going to accuse me of changing the question, but I think they would, if you said, would you rather have been born or not born, I think they would have said, I rather would have been born.
Because if they would rather have not been born, they would have killed themselves right then and there, as some did.
And by the way, I may have done it if I were in that situation.
But they fought for their lives, which showed they'd rather be in this world than not.
I don't know if not committing suicide and choosing I wish I were born are identical.
You may be right.
I'm not saying they're identical, but I'm saying that...
Well, one inevitably suggests the other, which is what you're saying.
I think they would say that they would rather be born, even in the circumstances.
And by the way, this is obviously someone who has not even gone through something close to that, thankfully.
I think they would say that they would rather be born than not born, and that's in part why they were fighting for their lives.
I'm not happy now.
I knew a lot of survivors.
That's an interesting question, and that's an answer to Sue.
To have a vote among those who have truly suffered through being tortured or some horrific life-eating disease, are you happy?
No, forget Happy.
Do you wish you were not born?
Well, I'll tell the audience, and I know we bring up my sister a fair amount, but I will tell the audience a personal example.
I mean, I struggle with this a lot with Gina, who's my sister with very severe autism.
She's been abused and neglected in her group homes.
I mean, thank God she's in a better situation now.
But there were many years of her life where I prayed for her peaceful death.
Prayed every day for it.
Even when I wasn't religious, I prayed for it.
Because of the way that she was treated.
And so I would think about that all the time.
Would I rather have had, would she, even though she's, I mean, she can't speak at all, but, you know, with any kind of understanding, but would she rather have been born, even if it meant being in this situation that she was in or not?
So I grapple with this a lot.
And I think I've come to the conclusion that I think she would, I think she would have rather been born than not.
Because Well, your question...
Which is not answerable because we don't have such a vote.
Right.
I wish it were taken.
But that is the answer to Sue's question.
Or Sue's lament.
There's so much suffering.
God should have drowned everybody including Noah.
But then you wouldn't be here.
Sue wouldn't be here.
I don't agree with her.
It comes from a very noble place.
So let me ask you, do you think the people in Auschwitz, if given the choice, would you rather have been born or not born?
I think it would have been 50-50.
Well, I mean, I agree with that.
Yeah.
But that recognizes that there is a significant, perhaps, majority contingent.
Yes.
Also, I assume that a lot of them had hope.
If they had no hope, if they knew they were gassed the next day and allied troops were not on their way, I don't know the answer.
Nobody knows the answer.
I wish it had been asked.
They asked them about belief in God.
You'll find this interesting.
So there's actually a book on the theology of Holocaust camp inmates.
Oh, really?
I would really love to read it.
Yeah, I'll try to find it for you.
It was published a long time ago, and I read it.
So here's the conclusion, based just obviously on those they've interviewed.
It was the number of atheists and the number of believers was the same after the concentration camps.
Wait, no, no, no, but there's a punchline.
You're nodding, but there's a punchline.
It was the same as the number of believers and the number of atheists was the same as before the concentration camps.
But a lot of it was a switcheroo.
Oh, wow.
A lot of the atheists were believers.
That makes sense.
And a lot of the believers had been atheists.
That makes a lot of sense.
Well, I'll tell you what really is fascinating.
We all understand why a believer would become an atheist in Auschwitz.
But why did an atheist become a believer in Auschwitz?
Oh, I think I understand that more.
Go ahead.
There are no atheists in Foxhalls.
Oh, oh, I see.
Yeah, but this is afterwards.
This is not, you know, God save me.
This is after the liberation that they were tested on their theology.
They changed in Auschwitz to believers.
They were no longer in foxholes.
Well, I think it's all they had.
You have to cling on to that in that situation.
I'm not sure.
Okay, that might be.
That's a very human answer.
It's a luxury to not believe.
That's what I say to a lot of secular people in America.
It's a luxury to not believe in God.
I had a different take.
Your take may well be right.
I like it.
I don't know if I like it, but I think it's true.
My take was they saw what men can act like and realized, I'm going to believe in humanity because most atheists believe in mankind because if you don't believe in God and you don't believe in mankind, you're a very unhappy dude.
Yep.
I agree with that.
I think that's probably the more accurate reason.
And then the believers who became atheists saw it sort of the different side of God.
Like, you created these people.
You created mankind.
You knew that this, right, and look at what you allowed to happen.
Well, all of your...
Children and your wife and your parents are gassed or murdered or shot or buried alive.
I got to admit, I totally get it.
There's no God is a logical reaction.
Yeah.
I mean, I was thinking about that recently because I'm doing a lot of research on Iraq because the 20th anniversary.
By the way, I hate saying that word anniversary.
It technically does mean the marker of a date, but for me at least it connotes something happy.
So with like the one year anniversary of Ukraine, like I just think that sounds odd.
Anyway.
I don't think people think of it as necessarily a happy day.
Go ahead.
March 20th is coming up, which is the 20th anniversary of the invasion.
And I have been just reading and watching so many, you know, so much material pertaining to it.
And I just kept thinking, here I am in California.
With a talk show, with my favorite author, you know, like, having had this blessed life.
And then across the world, there are these Iraqi children who were killed by Saddam Hussein or by ISIS. Like, how can there be a God?
How can there?
I did nothing.
I did absolutely nothing to get the life that I have.
And they did absolutely nothing to get the life that they have.
Boy, this conversation's had a lot of twists and turns.
But it's real.
It's human.
It's very good stuff.
It's the best stuff there is.
You know, look, I'm sure I said it on Dennis and Julie, but if I didn't, let me say it now.
On the issue of God and human suffering, the best answer I ever read, and I've read it all because I've really wanted answers and I realize there aren't on this one.
The best I ever read was Milton Steinberg, an American rabbi.
The believer in God has to account for the existence of one thing, unjust suffering.
The atheist has to account for the existence of everything else.
And there's a lot of everything else to account for.
What's been interesting is that throughout this conversation, we've sort of switched with...
Like, I was advocating that it's not a subversion of free will if God knows our future.
And then you were originally advocating that...
Are you kidding?
You think someone in Auschwitz would say that they were...
And then you just...
We've sort of gone in circles or...
That's a good point.
Switched points, but that's what God...
It proves my point.
Religion presents contradictions.
And you have to find a way to not necessarily reconcile them in the sense that you eliminate them, but reconcile them in that you have to...
Because they're real in life.
Yes.
That's a good one.
Well, it's called the Rational Bible.
I pray people read it.
Because my heart and soul and brain went into it.
As you know.
I would...
Say something in return, but I think everyone knows how I feel about it.
I will spare you.
You can reach us at julie at julie-hartman.com and you can follow us at DennisJuliePod on Instagram and Twitter, as the New Englanders would say.
See you next time.
Bye.
He wants you to say shalom.
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