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Feb. 13, 2023 - Dennis Prager Show
01:13:49
Getting High on Life
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Time Text
Hi
everybody, I'm Dennis Prager with Julie Hartman and it is known as Dennis and Julie.
We did not spend a lot of money on figuring out the name of our podcast.
Dennis and Julie is not, shall we say, some original name.
Hey, a conventional name is better than a bad name.
It's probably even better than any name because it's what it is.
It's Dennis and Julie.
It is what it is, and I like it.
By the way, maybe we should call this the Messy Desk Podcast, because we right now have three spoons, two rubber bands, a Wall Street Journal article, a lot of papers, and pen ink.
I just want you to understand, folks, we're working with three other men and myself.
There's one female in the entire operation, and that is the reason this was even noted.
Men can live in a mess.
It's one of our great traits.
Great traits.
Great traits.
Why?
Why is it a great trait, Dennis?
Because we know the ultimately important things in life.
Sports, women, and fountain pens.
Yes, exactly.
And, okay, let's continue.
But it is fascinating, it is true, that it would take a woman to have noted what a mess it was, generally speaking.
A guy who would note what a mess it was is usually gay, which is...
For those watching on the left, it is not an insult.
It's not intended as an insult.
It is not even an insult.
It's a compliment, actually.
Yes, exactly correct.
It's a given.
What I will say before we move on from this is I love working with men.
I had actually a leftist relative, female relative in my life, tell me that she loves working for men more than she likes working for women.
Did it bother her?
I'm sorry?
Did her self-observation bother her?
No, actually.
Because it conflicts with...
She acknowledged.
She said, look, I know that this may be an unexpected comment from me, and I probably shouldn't say this, but...
But working for men is so much better than working for women.
Okay, I'm very happy you said this.
Look, it's true.
No, I'm happy for other reasons, which we'll get to on another broadcast.
Each sex has its big issues and its big advantages.
That is why the ideal is a male-female bond.
They bring different things to the table.
I am determined to be...
A good female boss one day.
I don't want to succumb to the moodiness or the favoritism that most female bosses exhibit.
I'm going to be the anomaly.
Good.
It's actually a beautiful aspiration.
Good luck.
No, no.
I didn't mean good luck in the sense it'll never happen.
Men are easier to work with.
That is correct.
Because you're not moody.
It's an interesting question why.
There are men who are moody.
When I come into work every day.
But I don't know if they bring their mood to the office.
I know what I'm getting every single day with you and with them.
That's right.
Every day they're the same.
That's a great way of putting it.
Okay, it's a great subject.
We did an intense amount of male, female in the last one.
So I have a big one that you raised with me.
Off the air, and it struck a chord in me because of my son.
So I have two sons.
You know, but not everybody listening or watching knows.
And my younger son, his mom, my ex-wife who has since passed away, we adopted him at birth.
Literally the day he was born, we adopted him.
We did not know that his birth mother was a meth addict.
And that played a role in his life.
And he became addicted to alcohol and some drugs.
It was bad.
It was a bad scene.
It was a tragic scene.
And thank God, and I don't know what else to say other than thank God, because this was right before fentanyl started killing so many young people, including a friend of mine who's had a spectacular son, and just poof, fentanyl did it.
To the son.
Yes, to the son, yeah.
Anyway, so my son is fine, he's sober.
So he said to me a very interesting thing, because I have never been addicted, and I had to learn, and I learned an immense amount.
You know what his biggest fear when he was becoming sober?
And he actually used this term, and then when you raised it just recently, it really triggered this memory.
He said, it's hard for me to believe that there is such a thing as sober fun.
Picture sobriety as boring, basically.
I'm now putting words in his mouth.
And I realize that represents a lot of people, not just addicts.
The thought that if you're sober, and in the broadest sense, exercise self-control, you'll have a boring life.
Let me give one example, and then obviously I want you to explain to people why you raised the term with me independently of my son.
So people think the following.
I remember so vividly in high school and in college, especially college, I would say college, and my peers would say to me, oh man, you think sex is something?
You try it when you're high.
And I swear to God, I remember my reaction.
Wait a minute.
Sex is not exciting enough?
You need a high?
And that's when my eyes were opened to this eternal search for the more exciting.
So what prompted you to raise that term?
So I want to set the context first for the audience.
I was over at Dennis' house last week to have dinner with Dennis and his wife Sue and Robert Florzak, who I had on Timeless.
He's this...
He's so interesting.
Totally.
He can make anything interesting.
Correct.
That is correct.
By the way, shameless plug for the, what's the episode called, Sean?
The Art of Art, right?
I had Robert on and I just asked him, what are five paintings that you think everyone my age should know?
And we just talked about art.
No politics.
It was great.
Anyway, I was over at Dennis' house.
And before dinner, we were sitting by your computer.
Actually, I came over to your computer to see what you were doing.
Dennis was on the internet looking at fountain pen colors.
Remember that?
Inks.
Inks.
That's right.
Inks.
Sorry.
It was marvelous, I have to say.
The most beautiful colors of ink.
What's the website called so people can look at it if they want?
Just put in fountain pen inks and anything will come up.
I don't know.
I wanted to see what he was doing, and I pulled up a chair, and we were there for an hour just looking at the beautiful array of colors of the ink, and then we moved on into music, and then you showed me who's that.
The young pianist.
Oh, Yuja Wang.
Oh my gosh.
This young pianist.
First of all, sensational.
One of the greatest living pianists.
And second of all, she's a hoot.
She goes into these concerts and wears these mini skirts.
Truly mini.
Yeah.
So anyway, it was really, really fun.
And I turned to Dennis in the middle of it and I said, my God, you really embody sober fun.
And I said...
I don't know if I've really mastered having sober fun.
And it's something that I've been trying to work on.
Obviously, I just graduated from college about a year ago.
And in college, there was no such thing as sober fun.
I mean, anytime you were having fun, you were out at a party drunk.
Actually, I'm going to amend that statement.
I had a lot of sober fun in my suite with my roommates on a regular school night.
Blocked off time to have fun on the weekends.
It always involved drinking.
And when I graduated from college, even though I'm unlike Aaron, thankfully, I'm not an addict, I worried if I was going to be able to find sober fun because college was just a drinking palooza.
And I will say, sometimes it's hard because, for me at least, Drinking helps me relax, especially because I'm very hard on myself, and I always have that voice in my head that's saying, you're not working hard enough, you're not doing this, you mess this up.
So drinking helps me quell that voice.
But then I look at you, and you're totally relaxed when you're looking at fountain pen ink.
And I just, I kind of marveled at it, because you have trained your brain to find relaxation without the help of a substance.
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Was that an adequate context giving?
That was terrific.
So I, this is a, I gotta thank you.
Because you have given me a really big topic to discuss on my happiness hour and in general.
Sober fun.
I want you to know, though, I don't take a lot of credit for it.
I wish I could.
My nature never sought to escape life to have fun.
I've had so much fun in life.
The thought that I needed some artificial ingredient to make it fun, it didn't even occur to me.
If it was raised, I thought, what are you talking about?
When I was in college and after college and I would hear these lines from my peers, oh man, sex with...
You know, with marijuana or heroin or whatever.
I don't know what.
Whatever drug or drunk or...
And I would think, what are you...
I just thought.
It wasn't a noble thought.
It did not come from my superego.
It came from my ego or my id.
And I just said, what?
To myself or sometimes I may have even said, you've got to be kidding.
Sex is not enough fun.
You need an additive?
Whether it's alcohol or marijuana, it would blow my mind.
But putting, obviously, sex aside, it's true for everything, and you opened my mind, and it made me think of another memory.
A dear friend of mine, many years ago, when I was the director of this institute that brought me out to California in my 20s, so there were some issues at this institute, and there was a lot of tension.
Between me and the board of directors.
And he came into my office and he saw me looking through my stamp collection.
One of my many, many hobbies.
And he said to my other friend, other very close friend, I really envy Dennis.
His ability to tune out with hobbies.
It's amazing.
I wish I had it.
And I thought...
When you have something, you assume everybody has it.
People with perfect pitch think everybody has their perfect pitch.
What comes to us naturally, we assume comes to everybody naturally.
Obviously, I've lived long enough to know that that is a sort of gift in my nature because hobbies have played such a role in my happiness and that's my drug, in effect.
That's my tune-out from the world, is my hobbies.
And so I have to ask, is it available to everybody?
You acted like, oh, it's an achievement of mine.
I think it is.
Yeah, but I don't think of it as an achievement.
I know you don't.
I could see that when I said that to you as we were looking through the ink, you kind of had a moment where you were like, oh, yeah.
Huh.
I guess I do have sober fun.
In other words, you just, again, you didn't even consider it to be something of note.
But I think it is.
I do.
And maybe it's not for those in your generation, but certainly in my generation, there are not many people.
I was just talking about this with Seb Gorka recently on his show, that we don't have hobbies.
That's right.
Sober hobbies.
No, that's right.
I am now going to call hobbies sober fun.
That's what it is.
It's sober fun.
That's what they are.
And you know, and this is something that I need to work on.
You are, even though you joke that you're not, and I hope you're joking because it's ridiculous that you would ever think this, you joke that you're lazy.
You work very hard, and you work all the time.
But what I admire about you is, as you said to me recently, you take a vacation every day.
You take an hour or two, guilt-free, and you look at audio equipment, or you play with your camera, or you look at the inks.
And I can't do that.
I feel guilty when I take an hour to chill.
And so the reason why, at least for me, that I have sometimes wanted to have a glass of wine to relax is because, again, the glass of wine shuts up the voice in my head that's telling me, that's saying to me, "Really?
You're taking an hour break right now?" In this hour, you could be researching XYZ for your show.
But what I have realized...
In the past few months, as you know, I'm really, really trying right now, especially while I'm still young in my early 20s, I'm really trying to develop good habits.
Because I know if I do the work to develop them now, later in life it will pay dividends.
But I'm realizing that I need to work hard.
It sounds paradoxical because relaxation shouldn't require hard work.
But I need to work hard to allow myself to relax without having the substance handicap me.
And that's what the substance does.
It's actually an apt verb I used.
I handicap myself because then I think, oh, well, I'm a little tipsy.
I couldn't have done work anyway, so might as well just have fun now.
That explains a lot.
Yeah.
So Sean is asking in my earphones, have social media played a role in killing hobbies?
Oh, of course.
There's no question.
I didn't think of that, but there's no question.
I mean, I was not the only kid my age who had hobbies.
It was a given.
Kids would...
I mean, my brother, he loved building...
Scale model ships or airplanes where you put pieces together and glue them together.
My grandson is huge on fishing.
That's sober fun for him.
And it's not digital fun.
That's another thing that I admire about your choice of sober fun.
I mean, yes, you were looking online at Found and Penic.
Yeah, but it's not digital.
It's not a video game.
It's not a video thing.
And you love photography, even your audio equipment.
You sit there in the room with your eyes closed and just listen for hours.
By the way, I'm sorry.
I didn't mean to interrupt you.
I think I cut you off.
No, no, not at all.
Go on.
But I'll just say that the extent to which people my age have hobbies, most of them are digital.
Men play video games, for instance, with other men.
That's right.
Even my hobby, and I kind of hate that I'm calling this a hobby, but Real Housewives is my way of relaxing.
That's a TV show.
That's not great.
Well, it's not bad either.
No, no, no.
Tuning out with nonsense is fine.
I mean, you work so hard, you deserve it.
It's a non-issue.
But it's not a hobby.
That is correct.
I think that there is another factor, and you're going to love this because I know you didn't think of this, and I didn't even think of this till now.
So here goes.
The amount of homework...
Given to kids today doesn't allow for hobbies.
Oh, God.
It's all damn, and I emphasize damn, school.
One of the reasons I developed as well as I have in a number of areas, and in talking now intellectually, I forget character that people will assess for themselves, but is that I did no homework in high school, which...
Blows people's minds.
I mean, literally none.
But I'll tell you what I did do.
I started to teach myself Russian.
I taught myself music.
I mean, I learned from a teacher how to read music and how to play an instrument, but I taught myself a lot more and learned so well that I could read orchestral scores and ultimately conduct orchestras.
Anyway, I did what I wanted.
I went to bookstores in Manhattan from Brooklyn, and I just...
Looked at book and book.
I developed and I had all these hobbies in the electronics world.
My big hobby was shortwave radio.
We've never even talked about that.
I listened to foreign broadcasts and wrote them letters and got back mail.
I got mail from Congo.
I'll never forget when the Congo came.
Dennis Prager, 1725 East 27th Street, Brooklyn, New York, 11229. I was so excited.
I looked at it.
Oh, I bet.
Oh, and Radio Moscow.
I'm getting such a thrill.
That sounds so fun.
It was total fun.
I had so much fun in high school, I can't tell you.
But the reason was I didn't take high school seriously.
You can almost not do both of them.
What hobbies can you have if you're doing three hours of homework?
Three hours?
I did like seven hours of homework.
Are you serious?
Oh, yes.
Oh, yes.
Wait, what time did you get home?
Five o'clock?
Six o'clock?
And you would work till midnight?
Totally.
Past.
To 2 or 3 a.m.
Every single day.
And you were not exceptional in doing that?
No, I mean, and I went to a very academically rigorous private school, so this is, I understand that this may not be everyone's high school experience.
I thought I was exaggerating when I said three hours.
No, I wish.
If I had three hours of homework a night, maybe the one time a year, oh my god, it was like a vacation.
It was so fun.
Then at 9 o'clock, I could get into my bed and watch Gossip Girl.
It was like the best.
It was a vacation.
Yeah, no.
I mean...
Well, all right.
So what a terrible combination of social media...
You have no idea.
...and idiotic school policies.
They force sober fun out of your life.
Yes.
And, well, I... So...
With my upbringing, my upbringing was so regimented that I think that's in part why I struggle now to allow myself to have time off because I'm used to just constantly working.
And I have this weird idea that I'm cheating if I'm taking time off.
Or the better word is I'm slacking.
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But I want to also address people who may have not had the regimented...
I understand I was in in rarefied environments.
I actually I was talking about this on my show Timeless a few episodes ago, and I had a young woman write into me and say, Julie, I love when you talk about, you know, your your educational experience and, you know, how how people were so obsessed with getting into college that they didn't have hobbies.
You know, I always say, how does having an interest in photography help you get into It doesn't.
You can't put that on your application.
People my age, at least in my high school, would only do things that they could put on their college application.
I go to public school in Florida, and it is the total opposite.
It sounds like at your high school, people were too motivated, and that's why they didn't have hobbies.
At my high school, people aren't motivated enough, and that's why they don't have hobbies.
They don't do their homework.
They don't show up to class.
After school, they go to the football field and smoke pot.
And I think on both sides of the spectrum, even though they're certainly opposite, It reflects a kind of deadening overall.
Perhaps the overlap is the fact that we don't really have role models anymore of full people who live healthy lives and have hobbies like you and have sober fun.
But on both sides, maybe for different reasons, we don't have hobbies, but it's a deadening.
The deadening is the pot.
Well, yes.
I've said this on the air since I've been broadcasting.
My hatred for marijuana is visceral.
And I'm totally vindicated.
It is a goddamn item.
And I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
I hope God damns marijuana.
Okay?
It's evil.
You don't know how many conservative parents defended when I asked, would you rather your child smoke weed or cigarettes?
Every parent calling my show virtually.
I've done this now for everyone, including religious, Christian.
Conservative parents.
We talked about this, I believe, two episodes ago, so I won't repeat myself, but I know I said then, and I'll say it again now, I have seen pot ruin people's lives.
Oh, of course!
Ruin.
Cigarettes don't ruin people's lives.
They cut a third of the user's lives short later in life.
That's true.
It's a real danger.
I agree to that.
And look, it doesn't have to be an either-or.
Of course not.
But you know, you like my either-or questions.
Yes, of course.
I do like the either-or.
It lets people establish.
By the way, I've asked it in another way.
Would you rather the pilot of your jet going across the country to be while flying?
Would you rather him have a martini or weed?
Do you think those parents respond that way because they never smoked weed?
Because...
No, I'll tell you why.
Because health uber alice.
We have a new religion in the Western world, health.
It's a religion.
Well, that makes no sense because marijuana is...
No, no, no.
Marijuana affects your brain.
Yes, that's what I mean.
But you can live till 120 with marijuana.
Oh, I see what you're saying.
Whereas cigarettes, they may cut your life short.
Yeah, but affecting your brain is no...
It doesn't matter to them.
I mean, I've seen people truly become incapacitated.
Well, of course, the whole point of it is to be incapacitated.
And become crazy.
No, I've seen people become nuts when they get off the marijuana because of the induced psychosis, which is increasingly a problem and reported in hospitals.
And it's way stronger today than when I was a kid.
Tell me about it.
I know.
Yeah, it's true.
Anyway, what...
By the way, I want to just develop that theme for a moment and then go back to the extremes question.
The religion of health, which I have said health uber alles, using the fascist German term, Deutschland uber alles, Germany above all, and you just fill in the noun instead of Deutschland, instead of Germany, and then you know what people worship.
And...
Health, because health uber alis, which I discovered many decades ago, using this example of cigarettes versus marijuana, that is what allowed people to give up all freedom during COVID. Oh yeah, you want me to lock down?
You want me to close my church?
You want me to close my business?
You want me to put a mask on my two-year-old kid?
Who can hardly breathe with it on?
Of course I will.
Because health uber alas.
Right.
Common sense is dead.
Decency is dead.
Freedom is dead.
Because health uber alas.
Over all.
And I'm obviously passionate about it.
I have been passionate about this for at least 30 years.
Health is a god.
And I don't...
The irony, it is produced by secularism because...
Because if there's no God, all you have is this life, so you better live very long, as if you won't die.
You know, you be healthy enough, you won't die.
I mean, it's almost idiotic.
By the way, I'm pro-health, just for the record.
I'm pro-health.
But it's not uber alice.
It's not above all.
I'll take freedom above health.
Right.
I'm glad that you brought up secularism, because we can go back just for a moment to the extremes that I presented.
In addition, I said that the common theme between both was that we don't have good role models.
And I really think that's true.
At my super competitive, academically rigorous high school, the teachers were...
Wonderful.
I loved my teachers, but they didn't exactly encourage us to have balance in our lives.
And then maybe for the girl who wrote to me at her high school, she also perhaps doesn't have good role models of people who are encouraging hobbies or balance.
But I actually think even more than that, the greater overlap is secularism.
I actually had a friend from college say to me recently, she goes, you know, Julie, sometimes when I hear you on Dennis and Julie, you blame a lot of things on secularism.
And by the way, guilty is charged.
I think that so many of our problems today come from that.
And I think the hobby or the lack of sober fun issue is no different.
And I realized that as I became more religious.
Because when you become more religious, you have this sense of enchantment about the world and wonder and awe that makes you appreciate life around you more and want to participate in it.
And I think without that, you don't...
You don't want to engage in life as much.
For instance, it may sound like a leap, but as we were sitting there looking at fountain pen ink colors, someone listening to this right now may think that sounds like the most boring thing in the world, to look at ink.
But we both kind of have this, well certainly both of us are religious, but we have this sense that...
That's a part of the beauty, the divine beauty of life.
Like, we're looking at those gradations of color.
How could color be boring?
Well, but Dennis, see, I'm glad you just asked this because it proves my point.
A lot of people do think color is boring.
Right, they think everything is boring if you're sober.
Well, and if you're secular.
That's right.
Because, oh, of course we have color because...
Science-produced color.
But if you have a religious worldview, as we do, you look and you, and G.K. Chesterton, by the way, argues this so much more eloquently than I'm saying it in his book, Orthodoxy, which I probably mentioned on this show like 80 times, but I love the book.
You have a sense of color was created by God, and what a gorgeous...
What a gorgeous part of life.
He could have made the world in black and white, but he made it with all these shades of color.
And look at them here on this screen in fountain pen ink form.
I think having a religious worldview allows you to appreciate life, which in turn makes you want to participate in it, and then you can have more sober fun.
Do you agree?
Well, look, I'm the one who just now raised the secular issue.
Right, you did.
You know my equation.
Secularism plus affluence equals boredom.
Yep.
And boredom leads to evil.
Always.
And boredom leads to wanting an escape through substances.
That's right.
Because substances make life exciting.
Again, when you have a religious worldview...
Because life isn't exciting.
Why isn't it exciting to be with friends?
Why isn't sober fun having people you really like over for dinner?
I really think the key to sober fun is having an appreciation for life and recognizing that the everyday things that you take for granted are opportunities to experience life and not just boring.
Things that we have here.
Like friends.
People just think, oh, well, friends is just a part of life.
They don't think, wow, how lucky am I? I have said on my happiness hour for decades, you should date for friends like you dated for a spouse.
And I turned out unfortunately quite right because I am stunned to read the number of people who don't have close friends.
Really?
Oh, so you're stunned too.
Read about it.
Where?
Anywhere.
Just say, how many people do not have friends?
I mean, Google something like that.
And especially men.
Have you found that in your human laboratory?
Yes, that's how I know about it.
Men would call me up and say, I don't have buddies.
I go to hunting with or fishing with.
Baseball games, but I don't have really close friends.
Why do you think that is?
I wish I had an answer to that because you are asking someone who knew in sixth grade that I wouldn't last in life without friends.
I mean male friends.
You know I never sought a female friend.
Isn't that interesting?
I only sought male friends.
I tell you.
We're very similar.
It's been the same with me.
Well, I think that's healthy.
And you've met many of my friends.
All of them are females.
Yes.
It's one of the questions I have people ask before they get married.
It's on the internet.
Questions you should ask before marrying.
Something to that effect.
And one of them is, does the person you're thinking of marrying have friends of the same sex?
I was always weary of girls who only had male friends.
Yes, you should be.
You were right.
Yes.
And honestly, if I think back, most of the girls who only had male friends, they were not great people.
Right, I believe that.
Yeah, they were kind of...
They were catty to other women.
They were competitive.
They really sought the attention of males.
Right, well, you can't use your male charm and you can't use your female charm with the same sex.
They see right through it.
So it's not even usable.
They see who you are.
You can't fool the same sex like you can fool the opposite sex.
Going back quickly to Sean's question about the role of social media.
God, I really think it's crippled us beyond what we can imagine.
That's right.
And I find myself, and as I just said a few minutes ago, I'm really...
Constantly trying to steer myself well and develop.
I think I do have good habits now, but I'm just trying to develop even more.
And I've really tried to have more sober fun and have more non-digital fun, like playing cards or, I don't know, I ordered this kit to make...
It sounds so stupid that I'm saying this, but whatever.
I'm too deep now.
I already started saying it.
I bought this castle kit.
Do you think I'm crazy?
I think it's wonderful.
Really?
Of course.
Oh, gosh.
Shows.
So what does it do?
You put it together?
Yeah, you put it together.
Is it Legos?
No, no.
It's almost like cardboard, and they're cutouts that you kind of put in together.
One of the deepest people in my life.
He's extraordinary.
And he's a Catholic.
He converted, actually, from Protestant.
And he's a first-class mind, first-class thinker.
Plays the piano like a virtuoso.
I mean, he's extraordinary.
And what does he do?
He builds these phenomenal Lagos structures.
I mean, they're like, they're really works of art.
Really?
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
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I'm trying to do, again, more of this non-digital, sober activity.
And I find myself like five minutes into my castle building.
I have to look at my phone.
Oh, is that interesting?
What are you looking for?
I'm telling you, it's so weird.
It's like...
It's just habitual.
I don't know.
I will tap it to see what time it is.
Or I'll open it and then I'll go to my email.
So by the way, if you tap it to see what time it is, here's a thought.
Wear a watch.
Well, I think more...
Because I'm not really looking at what time it is.
My mind isn't thinking, oh, you need to check the time.
It's just...
I'm tapping my screen because I want to see it light up.
I don't even realize I'm doing it.
Fascinating.
And then I'll go into my phone and I'll refresh my email.
And by the way, I noticed my roommate does this too.
My roommate who I live with in my apartment.
And just to make clear, I'm not referring to my college roommates though.
All of my friends.
I just see this.
We'll be at dinner with each other and people will pull out their phones and they're not looking for anything.
Even at dinner?
Oh, of course.
Of course.
And they're like on Instagram.
By the way, you're at Shabbat dinner often with my holy dozen.
It's so fun.
And nobody's looking at the phone at all at any time.
No, and also I'm glad that you brought up those glorious Shabbat dinners because Dennis, what I want people to know about Dennis is he not only...
Has sober fun.
Even in the moments where, like, you could drink, you don't.
You don't even like alcohol.
Right.
Even at Shabbat dinner, once a week, you won't drink.
When he does the prayer, which I should know the name of by now.
Kiddush.
Of course.
I was thinking that.
I know.
I was just holding off.
Grave juice, I do.
Well, you take a little sip of the wine and you go, ugh.
Yeah, well, exactly.
I'm not against people drinking.
Of course.
If you keep...
If you keep this stuff in check, I have no issue with it.
But you're right.
The thought of relying on it, I don't find tuning out to be fun.
I mean, I'm the opposite.
I find staying alert fun.
Well, I think that what I started to ask myself and what I would encourage people who find that they rely on substances to ask themselves is, why are you tuning out right now?
Try to understand what it is that you are trying to escape.
Is it boredom?
For me, it was my own thoughts.
Address the problem instead of just going back to the vice.
That's a very important realization.
No, they're absolutely right.
Well, that was not on air, so let me tell people what...
Sean was saying is when you rely on this chemical stuff, it produces chemicals which you then rely on for your happiness or your escape or whatever, in your brain.
And Rick, who is also involved in the technical aspect of the show, was nodding.
And I just learned he's sober for 10 years.
So he knows...
Congratulations, Rick.
Oh, it is congratulations.
It is an achievement.
I consider sobriety after addiction an achievement that I have never, I don't consider anything I've done to be a greater achievement.
Nine books is not a greater achievement than sobriety.
I totally agree with you.
That's how much I salute these people.
And you, I mean, you've seen it firsthand with your son.
That's right, yes.
You always talk to me about Aaron's friends through AA. Right.
Well, that's right.
Well, he has really now come around to realize, well, there really is sober fun.
Oh, wow.
So what does he do for sober fun?
I love hearing that.
Well, friends are a very big thing, and he has a wonderful wife.
And, you know, you could watch a movie.
Movies are sober fun.
I mean, it's endless what's sober fun.
But I just have to acknowledge my son.
My son is an Orthodox Jew.
My older son is an Orthodox Jew.
So, among other things, they don't use electricity on the Sabbath for 24 hours.
And when I am at his house in Florida, and I see my grandchildren using no electricity to entertain themselves for an entire day, the gift that has been given to them, so what do they do for fun?
Because kids love fun.
They have other kids over.
Just like in 1850. And by the way, I just want to tell the audience, Jack and Daniel, your two grandsons, are such well-adjusted kids.
They are so cute.
I'm not just saying this to flatter you.
Yeah, and by the way, I don't want people to think that these guys, some angels walking around, they're both devilish.
They are?
Oh, they're so polite.
The older one is mastering field goal kicking.
That's one of his hobbies, fishing and field goal kicking.
He goes to a place near his house in Fort Lauderdale, and there are uprights, and he kicks.
I went with him.
He's so cute.
He held the door open for me.
Did he?
Yes.
What is he, 12?
Yeah.
I was like, a 24-year-old won't hold the door open for me, but a 12-year-old will.
Wow.
Oh my God.
Yes, I noted that before my son did.
So Sean notes that we're talking about sobriety and the irony is that I have Jack Daniel for my grandsons.
Yes, it is hilarious.
My son, when he named his second son Jack, did not realize.
And my first thought, which is a joke, is I don't drink.
Is that a whiskey?
Yeah.
Okay, that's funny because I never would have thought of that.
Now that you say it, I think it's ironic, but clearly it's more of a male observation.
They have a big sign up in one of their rooms, Jack Daniel.
It is very, it's adorable.
But they're learning, and this is a real gift of not using electricity a day a week.
They're learning.
Sober fun.
You know what's interesting?
I was having this discussion with a few girls my age who I was out to dinner with a few weeks ago.
By the way, they work at PragerU.
I don't even know if I told you that I had this dinner with some...
I didn't know.
Yeah.
I mean, people who work at PragerU are just five-star human beings.
Right.
world-class people.
It's actually like a little creepy.
Like, is there any bad person at Prager Hill?
It's such a, you perfected such a cohort of great people.
Anyway, we were out at dinner and all of us agreed that when we have children, we are not going to let them have any devices until they're like 15 years old.
I have always thought that one day when I, I shouldn't say when, hopefully, hopefully, if I have kids, hopefully when, I am, they are not getting a phone until they are in their teens.
And even when they are young, they're not going to watch TV. They're not going to be able to look at the iPad.
None of that.
And some may say to me that that is a bit extreme.
And I agree, it probably is a bit extreme.
But it shows you what a reaction...
No, what is extreme is the amount of time they spend on it.
Yes.
That's what's extreme.
I know, but people may say it's extreme to totally deny it to them as it is extreme to have it be a part of their everyday lives.
I agree.
No, I am not going to have them do that.
And I would bet you a lot of people my age feel the same way.
But interestingly, we don't make a big effort ourselves to wean ourselves off of the technology while we can.
Right.
Well, I will say, in my case, the phone has really one purpose.
And it's not fun.
I thank God for it, that I can keep in touch with so many people.
So you're going to pick me up at the airport.
Give me your text number.
I mean, it's so convenient.
I love it.
And by the way, I text my own kids.
We don't always have to speak on the phone.
But you don't understand.
You use it with temperance.
You use it the way it should be used.
I use it as a means.
It's not an ends.
That's right.
And by the way, I think a lot of people are like me.
I'm not bragging or anything.
It's nothing to brag about.
It's totally a generational thing.
My parents are the same way.
They use it.
Well, do your parents have sober fun?
Interestingly, my dad is like you.
He doesn't really like the taste of alcohol.
Well, does he have hobbies?
He does, yes.
My mom loves Wordle.
Do you know Wordle?
It's a form of crossword puzzle?
Yeah, it's on the phone.
But she and I both, we call ourselves tortured people.
Because we both have the voice in our heads telling us that we need to work harder, even if we've worked hard all day.
It's tortured, yeah.
So my mom and I both kind of need to have a glass of wine to relax.
But maybe it's a male-female thing.
It's a very interesting question.
Well, I don't know.
I think there are...
It's an interesting question.
Are there more male or female addicts?
Or is it evenly distributed?
Well, I'm not really...
I mean, that's certainly an interesting question.
But I'm not really here talking about addiction.
I know you're not.
I'm saying, do men have an easier time relaxing and having sober fun than women?
Oh, I think that's a very good...
It seems to me that the answer is yes.
It would seem to me too.
That's a very, very interesting point.
I love it.
Again, I'm just...
Men can tune out without...
Oh, totally.
Without artificial inducements.
So Dennis has this line that I told my dad, and he loves it.
He quotes you a lot.
Well, the wife is Sanskrit for Flawfinder 1. He loves.
But this one he also loves.
Dennis said to me once, he said, if...
Women couldn't get into men's heads.
Or get a man's brain for a day.
She would think, my God, there really isn't a lot going on here.
Right.
And then you said, but if a man could get into a woman's brain for a day, he would shoot his brains out.
That's right.
That is totally accurate.
Yes, it is.
I know men and women pretty well, and that I'm convinced of.
That, by the way, so when I talk about men and women at a whole lecture just on men and women, so I go further.
So I say, so ladies, you must understand something.
When you ask your husband, so honey, what are you thinking about?
And he says, nothing.
You can trust him.
I can't...
I truly can't fathom that.
Of course.
What is it...
I mean, I know it's a stupid question.
What is it like to think about nothing?
Do you just like...
Is it just blank?
It's sort of like my Basset Hound.
They sort of stare out and nothing much is going on.
Do you guys...
They totally agree with me, these guys.
Do you also think about nothing?
Right.
Thumbs up from Rick.
How long did you see Alhan?
Yes, that's right.
Sean said we have to force ourselves to think about something.
I have to force...
Yes, I know that.
It is difficult for me to think about nothing.
When I go to sleep at night, I am working so hard to think about nothing.
Well, you know, when I listen to my classical music, so I'm always asked, oh, so are you picturing something?
Are you imagining something?
Are you thinking about something?
I asked you that last week when we were listening to it.
Oh, okay, perfect.
And the answer is no.
I just hear the music.
You said it just goes straight to your heart.
Yes, and my brain.
So it's the most powerful thing outside of human relations.
You know, I think that's why you say a lot to me on and off the air, and you don't need to say it to me because I see it every day.
You have a ton of energy.
I think a lot of it is because you turn your brain off.
Yeah.
God knows you turn your brain off.
Right.
That's a very, very good point.
But you power it off.
Yes.
Completely.
That's right.
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Yep.
I have a response to that.
So what is that?
All right, so Sean was just sharing from AddictionCenter.com.
So, what does that mean, 11.5%?
That percentage of men will overdose, will become addicted, versus 6% of women?
Okay, abuse illicit drugs.
Okay, so men, according to that, are twice as likely.
I actually, I mean...
In my observation, that seems right.
I actually think men are more likely than women to become addicted.
But in the group that is not addicted, I think that women need to rely on it more to relax than men.
That's a very, very good point.
And that's a very important distinction.
It is.
Well, I'm just thinking.
So what can be done?
I know I was going to ask that too.
Again, I know that I'm like a broken record here, but I think you have to develop some good habits with this.
You have to force yourself.
Right, well that's true for everything.
Everything.
Everything.
The great tragedy, I mean I've said this so often, I don't want to, as they say, beat a dead horse, but when people call me up and say, Dennis!
So my wife and I are going to have our first kid.
What's your recommendation?
Any words of wisdom?
And I always have the same answer.
Yes.
Just remember to teach your child and for you to know self-control is infinitely more important than self-esteem.
The great division, one of the great divisions between Pre-World War II, all through the beginning of America, and post-World War II, till today, is that it was a given that you tortured child self-control.
And then, idiocy took over after World War II. True idiocy.
Like self-esteem.
This is what's most important for your child.
But it's not true.
Anyway, you can't...
There's no such thing...
Artificial self-esteem...
Has a word for it.
It's hubris or arrogance.
Artificial self-esteem is awful for that person and for whoever associates with them.
The real self-esteem in life comes from self-control.
That's when you get self-esteem.
It's so true.
Whenever I have sober fun because I controlled myself, I feel good about myself.
I go, wow, that was...
That was a great thing that you pushed yourself to do.
So what do you think about fountain pennings?
Tell, I must say, my wife marveled at how much you enjoyed it.
Really?
Yeah, it cracked her up.
I sort of marveled at how much I enjoyed it.
I marveled at how much you enjoyed it.
I was sure that you would say, Dennis, you know, it's just a little boring thing.
Let's move on to something.
Well, I was just blown away by the colors.
I mean, remember those purples we were looking at?
Yes, I know.
And I didn't...
I didn't even know that there were colors could be that beautiful, as weird as it may sound.
Yes, I love color.
That's why I do color photography.
That was another, it's been a lifelong hobby in my life.
By the way, it's interesting.
My, you don't know this, and you know a lot about me.
So when I was 13, and I did no schoolwork, I was already developing hobbies.
Shortwave radio listening.
And photography.
We lived 25 minutes from Kennedy Airport.
It was then known as Idlewild.
And my father, to his credit, took me to the airport, left me there alone all day at 13, and all I did was photograph airplanes.
And why?
A, I loved photography, but B, It was my romance.
I would see a foreign airline and think, wow, that's what I want to do one day.
Fly to that country.
Or I would see United Airlines, American Airlines, and think, wow, where is that going?
Detroit.
I've never been to Detroit.
It was so exciting.
And then he'd take me home.
By the way, he left me there all day.
Which parents today, leave a 13-year-old at an airport all day?
I'm not even sure that you're allowed to do that.
No, you're not.
You can't get past...
Which is terrible.
I mean, I flew alone at 7. My parents did not fill out a single form.
All they did is drop me off at the plane.
They saw me to the gate, which you could do in those days.
Even if you didn't have a ticket, you could see somebody off.
Bye, Dennis.
Have a good flight.
I mean, it's a bad thing that we live in a world where we have to have such security, but I'm glad we do.
Well, I don't know that we have to.
I'm not sure.
Gosh, I think we really do.
I was reading one of the papers recently, and they summarized the TSA seizures in the past year.
I didn't even realize that so many people try to do crazy stuff at airports.
Like what?
Oh my gosh.
I think there was an instance at JFK in December where someone tried to sneak in a gun, but basically disassembled the gun and put it in different suitcases.
I was just reading about instances of...
Oh, someone tried to smuggle in...
Right, but what does that have to do with sending your seven-year-old?
I'm saying that now airports don't let you go through unless you are getting on the plane because it's...
Oh, I'm fine with that.
I just...
I used to bring...
So what is the seven-year-old going to do?
Just go stand in the area before security?
Okay, I understand because the parents can...
Well, you can.
Parents can accompany.
You can get...
You have to get it at one of the airline desks, but you can...
Go through if you're not flying.
Right, but you have to be accompanying someone who is flying.
Yes, that's fine.
So that answers the question.
But you don't know.
You wouldn't know.
There would be no reason.
I know this because I brought a nephew of mine to visit us each year for a week from New Jersey.
And the amount of forms he had to fill out and we had to fill out and...
He had to be supervised by a flight attendant, accompanied off the plane by a flight attendant.
When I was a kid, when I was seven, you didn't have to do what a 15-year-old has to do today.
Well, a lot of that is because there are more creepos.
I don't think so.
Really?
A lot of it is because people are more afraid.
We live in an age of fear.
We live in an age that's the helicopter parent doing things.
Why?
Look, this should really interest you because you're almost a professional swimmer or were.
You're now a happier human being.
But in any event, did you know that diving boards were legal in California when I was a kid?
You mean in private homes?
In private homes.
Yeah, you told me this.
This is crazy.
You're right.
And now they are illegal.
Oh, they've been illegal for most of my adult life.
That, to me, the supervision of a 15-year-old on a plane is part of you cannot have a diving board.
Right.
But then on the other hand, of course, you can have puberty blockers and gender transition surgeries when you're 12. So that's the morally confused world that we live in.
I'm really glad, though, that you brought up this hobby of yours when you were younger, because you asked a few minutes ago what can be done about this issue, and I responded for the 80th time in this broadcast that you have to develop good habits.
But also, I think a part of it is seeing other people who have good hobbies.
Gives you some ideas.
Like when I was at your house, I would have never, ever, ever thought to consider when I try out hobbies looking at fountain pen ink.
But the fact that I was just at your house that day when you were doing it and I saw it and I went, oh, this is kind of cool.
It's opened this new world for me.
Not just...
With looking at fountain pen ink specifically.
But now I browse art online.
I just look up beautiful paintings on Google and I just click through them and see which ones I like and see which ones I don't.
And now I have more of an eye towards the color.
Or I was even Googling the other day different color palettes.
Seeing your example gave me some inspiration.
That's a big deal.
I think people...
Talking about things that interest them, give others ideas.
On that note, I want to ask the lovely individuals in our control room.
I've never asked you guys this question.
What are some of your hobbies?
Video games, Sean.
He's cracking himself up, but it's probably lovely too.
His hobby is cracking himself up.
His dogs, yes.
His dogs.
Annoying me.
Is a big, big one on his list.
You're confirming my mother's...
Confirming what?
You're confirming my mother's idea of you, that you hate Sean.
For those of you who don't get the reference...
Oh, that's hilarious.
My mom said to me one time, I came home from work, and she goes, Julie, oh my God, why does Dennis hate Sean so much?
You love him.
You always talk about how great he is.
Yeah, Sean, why do I hate you so much?
There's got to be a reason.
Sean's cracking up.
I don't...
Actually...
I hate Sean and deeply dislike Rick.
Because if anybody is dislikable, it's Rick.
The guy radiates anger.
You know who I dislike the most?
Alejandro.
Alejandro's another one.
I mean, the whole crew here.
Zach's pretty bad as well.
That's why you love working with men, because this is a great quartet.
Alejandro.
What is my thing about Colombians?
What did I have?
NC what?
NCNB. No Columbia, no broadcast.
Oh my God.
That's our view.
Also, it shows how this show is coming full circle.
I started off by saying how much I enjoy working with men.
Another reason why I enjoy working with men is you guys, and it proves the point that I was making in the middle.
You guys do have more fun.
You allow for more fun on a daily basis than...
It is impossible to imagine five women doing a national broadcast.
I mean, this is serious work.
Of course it is.
Just having a lark half the time.
Oh, you guys at home, you have no idea how much shenanigans goes on before.
And it's so fun.
Huh?
Yeah, that's a great one.
Look at how much fun they have on The View.
It's such a good point.
Oh my God.
Yeah, each sex brings its advantages and disadvantages.
And we'll do some of the disadvantages on another Dennis and Julie.
Yes, we will.
I can't tell you how much this has opened up to me, the sober fun concept.
That this is a very, very serious issue.
I'll tell you what it's related to as well.
Remember I said boredom, excuse me, secularism.
Plus affluence equals boredom.
Yeah.
Which is a fact.
It's a fact.
It's not a dentist's theory.
And boredom is undone by excitement.
There is a massive premium on excitement.
That's a very serious problem.
It's one of the reasons so many people your age don't look forward to getting married.
I was just about to say that.
It doesn't sound exciting.
Getting married, having kids, going to church, following the law is boring to them.
That is correct.
Little do they know that that is, as I like to say, the infrastructure that you have to build a full life.
Yes, exactly.
A full and exciting life.
Relying on adrenaline.
That's what it really amounts to.
Relying on adrenaline.
You know, that's...
That's why, by the way, this bugs them about religion.
Religion doesn't seem to be an adrenaline producer.
Religion has given me more adrenaline than anything in my life.
I swear to God, as weird as that sounds.
Because reading the stories...
I think they're really fun and interesting.
And as I was arguing earlier, it's allowed me to look at life through a more exciting lens.
Because I view a lot of things as divine or miracles.
Well, I have another related theory.
I don't know what's more fun.
And this would sound like to many in your generation is weird.
There is very little in life that is more fun.
There was nothing, maybe, than learning.
And I have an interesting proof.
I used my father as an example on the air.
My dad died at 96, and his last years were his really only unhappy years because my mother had died earlier, and they were together for 72 years.
How did they meet, by the way?
Sorry to cut you off.
They met, believe it or not, at a religious Jewish dance.
An Orthodox Jewish dance.
That's so cute.
It's totally cute, but it's also very interesting because there would be no such thing as an Orthodox Jewish dance today.
Anyway, that's another issue for another time.
And what did he do most of the time he read?
And I remember thinking, he knows he's not here for a long time.
But to the last minute, learning is fun.
I could see if I knew at X amount of time, I would read or I would learn through some other way.
Learning is extremely exciting, even.
That's why it's such a shame what has happened in schools.
Of course, the woke stuff is a category unto itself.
Right.
But more broadly, there's been...
As John Agresto, a guest who I had on my show, Timeless, argued, the death of learning.
Because teachers, especially in humanity subjects, have overly professionalized and academicized the material.
Specifically, literature.
Right.
Who reads literature after high school?
Or after college.
Very few people.
And it's because when you're in the classroom, and I found this, when you open a book, the teacher's identifying this is an instance of alliteration.
This is a simile.
This is a metaphor.
Let's focus on this symbol for 35 minutes.
It's worse than that, in my opinion.
You read for a test.
You read for a grade.
Well, exactly.
And also, teachers, and John Agresto writes about this very eloquently in his book, which I know you ordered because I spoke so highly of it.
John Agresto writes that teachers now, they make books just, they reduce them to just a commentary of the time.
Like, Heart of Darkness is an exploration of imperialism in Africa.
Nathaniel Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter.
Is a commentary on the sexist Puritan.
That is a brilliant point.
Isn't it?
Therefore irrelevant to you.
He writes it so much better than I could say it now.
Oh, is that brilliant.
When you reduce, and this is what they're doing in schools.
Then why read anything?
When you reduce these authors to their time and place, it otherizes them.
That's why the people who laugh at me over my Bible commentaries, Oh, Prager, he thinks I'm going to learn something from a 3,000-year-old book?
I mean, that's so stupid to me.
That is the most stupid comment in the world to me.
Because you learn from the fact that it's a 3,000-year-old book.
It's endured for 3,000 years.
Right, because it's rooted in human nature, which hasn't changed in 3,000 years.
And it's really...
I think all of this is related because in schools, everything is just a political commentary or it's for a test.
And they have made life and literature and learning a desiccating experience.
They have sucked the life out of it.
So no wonder we don't have hobbies.
Yeah.
Well, this has really been something.
I just ask everybody listening or watching to ask yourself, what is your sober fun?
Do you rely on chemicals?
Substances.
Substances.
I use chemicals deliberately, but of course I mean substances.
And please write to me.
What's my email, Dennis?
Your email is julie at juliehartman-hartman.com You were close, which makes me think that you know it.
So do you want to say it correctly?
That's the best I can do.
Julie at julie-hartman.com.
I'm very interested to hear...
Wait a minute.
That's what I said.
No, he is such a fool.
That's what I said.
You said Julie Hartman.
No, I... He does this.
Oh, please.
You guys...
You guys are giving me a hard time for no good reason.
You guys are...
When I said Dash Hartman, I was correcting the original one.
Oh, right.
Yes.
Oh, please.
Okay, everyone, this is a good segue.
Follow us.
You think I had...
I think that her thing is Julie Hartman, Julie Dash Hartman?
Well, you should have been more clear.
I'm pretty clear.
I get paid for clarity.
Mr. Clarity.
Clarity over agreement.
This is a good segue to please follow us at DennisJuliePod and you will see many videos on that Instagram page of Dennis denying that he says things when he did.
Like, remember when I was counting the almonds and I said there were 14 almonds and you went, she's right.
And then I said, oh my god, I was right.
And then you go, I didn't say you were right.
It's a video.
Look it up.
She's with Dennis on this one.
Sean knows.
You just call...
What'd you say, Sean?
You just called Sean she.
She declares her rightness.
Yes, I did.
I said, I'm right.
Sean, you are so FOS. You are so FOS. Audience, watch this.
And everyone will side with me.
I said I was right.
You repeated you were right.
By the way, FOS is full of sobriety for anybody who is listening.
Just wanted to make that clear.
Thanks for being with us.
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