Erica Kirk’s memorial speech for Charlie Kirk—described as instantaneous and framed around God’s mercy—sparked debate over performative forgiveness, with critics like Pearl and Doug MPA questioning its sincerity amid her rapid rise at Turning Point USA. Kirk’s claim to forgive the assassin without repentance or remorse clashes with biblical calls for justice (Matthew 6:14–15), while callers argue forgiveness should not excuse consequences like prison or political exploitation. The episode reveals tensions between modern Christian virtue signaling and traditional accountability, leaving listeners to weigh whether forgiveness can ever truly absolve "pure evil." [Automatically generated summary]
Of a topic, so I just didn't really feel like starting with the music today.
I just, I didn't really have a song for this one, so please forgive me.
But thank you guys for tuning in.
A couple updates on the channel.
The first is we are in the works for this divorce documentary.
And it would be actually interesting if you, as the viewers, could have direct impact on what we edit and put in the documentary.
So, what we're actually looking at now when it comes to the divorce documentary, the concept of it is what's in it for men.
And essentially, what we're trying to figure out is what if we want to do a descriptive documentary or have a call to action in it.
So, if you're interested, if you have a take, put it in the comments.
You know, let me know.
We were thinking a call to action at the end, but it could just be descriptive.
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Okay.
So today we're talking about how we're kind of going to be going over Charlie Kirk's wife, Erica Kirk's speech when it comes to the memorial of Charlie Kirk.
Now, I do want to start this show by saying this is not a conversation that's meant to be judgmental.
I do consider this to be a safe space on my channel.
So, meaning I don't judge any opinion, and my hope is that you are not judgmental of mine.
Obviously, this is the internet.
I understand what comes with this.
But I have no hatred in my heart towards any of these women.
But I just know there's a section of America and really of Twitter kind of watching this go on that kind of feels this way.
Okay, so we're going to start with watching Erica's speech.
So, we're going to listen to some of Erica Kirk's memorial speech for Charlie.
So, let's go.
But there was something else too.
Even in death, I could see the man that I love.
11 days ago, God accepted that total surrender from my husband and then called him to his side.
More than anything, Charlie wanted to do not his will, but God's will.
And over these past 11 days, through all the pain, never before have I found as much comfort.
Okay, so the individual, thank you for signing up for our memberships.
At some point, we might do members-only shows.
We're not doing that right now, but feel free to sign up if you want.
As I now do, and the words of our Lord's Prayer, Thy will be done.
God's love was revealed to me on the very day my husband was murdered.
On the afternoon of September 10th, I arrived at a Utah hospital to do the unthinkable.
To look directly at my husband's murdered body.
I saw the wound that ended his life.
I felt everything you would expect to feel.
I felt shock.
I felt horror.
And a level of heartache that I didn't even know existed.
But there was something else too.
Even in death, I could see the man that I love.
I saw the one single gray hair on the side of his head, which I never told him about.
Now he knows.
Sorry, baby, telling you now, but never told him.
Didn't want to.
I also saw this.
I also saw on his lips the faintest smile.
And that told me something important.
It revealed to me a great mercy from God in this tragedy.
When I saw that, it told me Charlie didn't suffer.
Even the doctor told me it was something so instant that even if Charlie had been shot in the operating room it's itself.
So I just have a couple observations.
Now, these observations, I am not excited that I'm going to be the one to point these out.
I'm really not.
I kind of feel like a bad person.
Maybe I shouldn't be, right?
I mean, who am I?
But this is a conversation happening on the internet, and I think it's going through a lot of people's minds.
That it's almost like they're turning this death into.
It just doesn't.
It's just, it doesn't seem like the attention is respectful in a way when it's like stadiums full of of people.
And I'm gonna I'm gonna verbalize this a little bit better hold on.
Nothing could have been done.
Yeah, it almost someone put it in the chat.
It's like men, whenever I'm blank and they just give me the answer, um, you know yeah, it almost seems like nobody cared about it.
And I know maybe there's a side of YouTube that's saying everyone's showing they cared, they're showing up, they're filling stadiums um, but it just it's just kind of an odd way to go about it.
It's almost like it didn't even happen um, when everybody's, nobody seems like and people grieve in different ways.
So I don't know, I don't know any of these people personally, but just a lot of these speeches they come off as performative, like this.
Doesn't look like a woman who lost her husband 10 days ago, I think would be the best way to put it.
And I don't know, maybe I'm the only crazy person for getting that, for having this opinion, it that's very possible, it could, and I don't have any hatred in my heart towards her, but it's just when I was listening to this speech, It just didn't really seem like the focus of the speech was Charlie.
And when I'm really looking at this movement, it almost seems like Erica has been put in the front of the conservative movement now.
It almost seems like she's kind of the new god of conservative.
Like it's almost, this almost seems like an Erica worship fest in a way.
The way people are reacting on Twitter.
And I say this with no malice in my heart, right?
I really, I really don't.
But I think when you acknowledge gender, like the differences in the genders and what each gender has proclivities to, you can see issues when you're putting a woman in front.
You know, as we've said on this channel, women really aren't meant to lead movements.
We're not really meant to be in charge of things.
We don't do well with it.
In general, not all, not all.
And so I just wonder if people are really looking out for Erica's best interest.
It almost seems like, you know, is this really the best position to put a grieving widow in who lost her husband 10 days ago in like a Super Bowl stadium?
Maybe it is, right?
Maybe I'm just, maybe I'm just full of it.
I don't know.
But I think that's where a lot of people's minds are going towards.
I think that's what a lot of people are thinking.
And I'm going to be the one to say it because I, you know, I'm really just trying to have the conversation here.
No fame.
There's no fear.
Yeah, what did the widows of JFK, RFK, and MLK do?
They kind of faded into the background.
He's right.
And this has almost become like an Erica worship fest.
And it doesn't really surprise me, I guess, knowing her background.
She always came off to me as an attention-seeking woman, like she always wanted to be in the spotlight.
Now, look, who have I to say that, right?
I have a show.
You know what I mean?
This isn't meant to be judgmental.
But if I'm observing, you know, this is a widow that's got two young kids at home.
Are conservatives really looking at her and her family's best interests by saying, here's a 300 bajillion dollar organization that you're the CEO of?
Is it really in her best interest to have this like scripted performance?
It just doesn't seem real to me.
Now, again, maybe this is what he would have wanted.
I don't know.
No agony.
One moment Charlie was doing what he loved, arguing and debating on campus.
Fighting for the gospel and truth.
In front of a big crowd.
And then he blinked.
and saw his Savior in paradise and all the heavenly mysteries were revealed to him.
God's love continued to be revealed to me in the days that followed.
The next day on the tarmac in Air Force 2, I confronted Usha Vance, precious woman.
I held her hand and I told her, honestly, I do not know how I'm going to get through this.
Pearl, do you think she's faking it?
Well, if I'm being honest, it really comes off that way.
I hate that I'm having that thought.
I almost feel guilty for having that thought because it seems like it's almost immoral to think that, you know, of a grieving widow.
But I just wonder what is the purpose.
What is the purpose of, you know, drawing all this attention to a grieving widow?
It doesn't seem like his best friends were doing that.
You know, because it just seems like we'd want the attention on the husband.
I don't like that I'm thinking of it like this, but if I'm really being honest, that's how it comes across to me.
And I really, I want to, and I had some notes here.
I want to reiterate what the issue you get when you put women as the heads of a lot of these movements.
The challenge you get a lot, and you're kind of going to see this in this speech, is that women, we have a tendency to misquote the Bible.
We have a tendency to just get things wrong.
And Christian women have a tendency to get power and just turn it into a nagging session on men.
And even in this speech, which you would think would be like an inveterance to Charlie, that it would just be, you know, it would only, like, I would think it would just be positive things about Charlie.
It even turns into nagging men.
And I hate, I hate, I hate that I have to be the one.
I don't like that I'm saying this.
It feels important.
Maybe, maybe I'm wrong for it.
But, you know, I just got to be honest where that's how it comes across.
It came across as victim here.
I will put her in charge.
Left will have a hard time making fun of a widow.
A strong, independent woman, mother, even Tyler Robinson would think twice.
It major plot armor around her.
I don't think it'll turn out well.
I don't, you could say, you know, because this is the political arena, okay?
Are you really looking out for her best interests?
Let's say we want Erica to do, we want those kids to be raised well.
Are we really looking out in her best interest by putting her in charge of a giant organization so that we can't be made fun of as hard?
Yeah, so let me just, I'll continue.
She told me something.
She said, You know, when you're on an airplane with your kids and it's the last 15 minutes of the flight and things are crazy, kids are not cooperating, toys are flying everywhere and everyone's screaming.
And you think to yourself, I cannot wait for this flight to land.
And it's 15 minutes before you land.
And she told me, you will get through these 15 minutes and the next 15 minutes after that.
Usha, I don't think you realized it then, but those words were exactly what I needed to hear.
Yeah, and you guys are putting it.
Somebody's going to be raising the kids and it's going to be nannies.
And I was a nanny kid guy.
I think I had 20-something nannies growing up, if I had to guess.
I can't even, I could not name them all.
I had so many.
I literally could not name them all.
And it's very difficult for children to have these rotating women that just come in and out and in and out and in and out.
You know, and I'd like to say, I do think there are some jobs that women can do while being a mom.
I am the first one to say that, but leading a multi-million dollar organization.
You know, a lot of people are coming at me and they're saying, Pearl, you're just jealous.
You know, I had a team of 20 people at one point, and that was the worst time of my life.
No, that's dramatic.
Sorry, I should sound more grateful, but I did, I'll just say this plainly.
I did not enjoy that.
It was not the right thing.
I didn't mean for it to get that big.
So, you know, I just am trying to facilitate.
I don't like that I'm, I don't, I don't like, I think there's a little fear in my voice treading on this.
I don't like that, but, you know, I'm trying to be as respectful as I possibly can, but I foresee there will be problems.
You know, when you give a woman power, even a grieving widow, we have a tendency to not be the best with it.
And I don't really think worshiping her is going to lead to good things.
I would predict it's really, and I'm going to wait and see.
I could be wrong, but the ego, when women get excess praise, the ego that builds can sometimes lead us to making very stupid decisions that are not in our best interest.
I mean, there's a reason.
There's a reason we like the bad boy.
Nobody ever tells us no ever, except him.
But most of all, God's mercy and God's love have been revealed to me these past 10 days.
After Charlie's assassination, we didn't see violence.
We didn't see rioting.
All right.
Someone put Charlie is alive.
We are not with these conspiracy theories here.
You know what?
I'm sorry.
I need you to exit my chat if you really think he's still alive.
You just, you're not, there needs to be like an IQ over a certain threshold to be here.
And you just need to go.
Like, we can't be.
She is practically a soldier.
Now you are right, but going into exile would let the left win.
I disagree with that.
There are competent, smart, intelligent men that can take that role.
There are.
I mean, you don't think Charlie had a right-hand man at work?
Now, a lot of people are saying, but Pearl, she's just the figurehead.
I think that's really dangerous, actually, just in general.
I mean, I've seen what that does when women are in charge and then men do all the work, the ego that builds.
I don't think you're really looking out for her best interest by doing that.
That means she is still going to have major decision-making power in the company.
And if she's at home raising the kids, you cannot make good decisions in a company without knowing specifically what's going on.
And I'll tell you, I had this problem when I was in England.
And I could say this was, guys, this was like, I don't know how many people.
I'd have to look back, but 20 people tops.
Was a small, this was not a big number of people.
But a challenge is if you don't kind of really understand every part of the business, people just do nothing.
I mean, that's like the best way to put it.
People just, Doug MPA told me this today.
He said, those who can't or don't have, I think it was like those who don't have to won't.
And I don't even really like women in figurehead positions.
I don't, I don't think that's the greatest idea.
I foresee that there is going to be issues with it.
Tucker, I don't know if Tucker would, because Tucker was always an employee.
It's a very different skill set, like talking on camera than running an organization.
Those are two, I would say Ben Shapiro would be the best one I could think of.
Or even that guy, the Jeremy Boring guy.
I mean, those are just the names I know.
I'm sure there's people in the industry that are better.
Okay, wait.
We didn't see revolution.
Instead, we saw what my husband always prayed he would see in this country.
We saw revival.
I know, we're going to get to the question of the pure evil.
We're just gonna get to that part of the speech.
This past week we saw people open a Bible for the first time in a decade.
We saw people pray for the first time since they were children.
We saw people go to a church service for the first time in their entire lives.
Charlie liked to journal.
And I say this because he did it to remember important moments and sayings that affected him.
So I'm listening to the speech so far, and it just seems to be more about the movement than about Charlie thus far.
And that's just what I noticed.
That's what I noticed in a lot of the speeches.
The attention seemed to be drawn to the movement, not who he was as a person.
And again, maybe that's what he would have wanted.
It's very possible.
I mean, I could see him wanting that.
So I could be, you know, completely wrong in saying this, but that's where my head goes.
And one of the things he wrote in his journal was this: Every time you make a decision, it puts a mark on your soul.
To those of you out there who just made that decision and took the first step toward a spiritual life, I say thank you and welcome.
One day, I hope you look back and realize it was the most important decision of your life, because it is.
All of you, all of you who are already believers, it is your job to shepherd these people.
Do not take that lightly.
Water the seed of their faith.
Protect it and help it grow.
Every day as Charlie rode into the office, he would go through his contact list.
And I know there's many of you who were impacted by this.
He would go through his contact list and send Bible verses for the day.
He knew that faith was a habit.
The more you live it, the more it grows.
But know this too: the seed has only just been planted.
The enemy will tempt you the most in a time like this one.
God will always be there for you, but you must choose to mark your soul again and again in the direction of Christ.
Pray again Read the Bible again.
Go to church next Sunday and the Sunday after that and break free from the temptations and shackles of this world.
Being a follower of Christ is not easy.
It's not supposed to be.
Jesus said, if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.
He said he would be persecuted.
He said we would be persecuted.
And Charlie knew that and happily carried his cross all the way to the end.
And I want all of you to know: while Charlie died far too early, he was also ready to die.
There was nothing, nothing he was putting off.
There was nothing that was too hard or too painful or nothing that he just felt like he didn't want to do it.
He left this world without regrets.
He did 100% of what he could every day.
But I want you to know something.
Charlie died with incomplete work.
And so it just seems like the attention is on Christianity as a whole.
The movement.
It just seems like I just haven't heard a ton about who he was as a person.
And that's really, I think, what is maybe off-putting about a lot of what I've seen post-his death.
You know, I mean, I saw people running ads.
You know, I saw Megan Kelly.
They had a clip today, and it was talking about Charlie.
And then it's like they cut to an ad about gold.
And I'm thinking, are you crazy?
Like.
Do you know what?
And I don't know.
Maybe I'm wrong for feeling like this, but that's just how it comes off, if I'm being honest.
Unfinished business.
Guys, you just are not going to convince me that the assassin went through a tunnel.
This is not the day.
is not the day, okay?
But I will miss him.
I will miss him so much because our marriage and our family were beautiful.
They still are.
But see, do you notice it's it's never he was awesome, it's the marriage was awesome, the family was awesome, the mood, like the greatest cause in Charlie's life was trying to revive the American family.
When he spoke to young people, he was always eager to tell them about God's vision for marriage and how if they could just dare to live it out, it would enrich every part of their life in the same way that it enriched ours.
And someone once asked me how Charlie and I how we kept our marriage so strong when he was busy traveling in our little secret it was love notes every Saturday.
Charlie wrote one for me and he never missed a Saturday.
So it's still, he did this for me.
He did this for it's not, and I don't think it's conscious really.
I think it's unconscious, but like I'm sure someone maybe even wrote her this, but it just seems to be going a different direction.
And in every single one of them, he'd tell me what his highlight was for the week, how grateful he was for me and our babies.
And always at the end, he would always end it with asking the most beautiful question.
He'd always end it by asking, please let me know how I can better serve you as a husband.
Charlie perfectly understood God's role for a Christian husband.
Who's serving who in a traditional marriage?
And if you say you're serving each other, that's egalitarian.
One's got to serve the other more.
I'm just, you know, I'm just being honest here.
And this is the challenge when you get when you put women in that leadership position.
A lot of times we get things wrong.
And the position you're putting her in is you're opening her up.
Because, you know, if I'm offering light pushback on this, imagine what the left is going to do with this.
Is this the best place for a grieving mother and a widow?
And I just wondered, is anyone really thinking about what her best interests are?
Like her and her family's best interests?
Like, seriously, is anybody, you know, because when you're in an emotional state, nobody's really going to look out for you.
You know, I mean, I mean, who here in the chat has made a poor decision when you're in an extremely emotional state, when you're just crashing out or whatever?
You know, she's in an extremely emotional state.
And it just seems like it just feels wrong that they're putting her in front of the or like they're putting her as the head of the organization.
They're putting her out in front.
And I just keep thinking, is this the best?
You know, it may even be what she wants to do, but sometimes what you want to do isn't what's best for you, you know?
And it just, I don't, it just seems like everybody just wants to milk this as long as possible.
So a man who leads so that they can serve a man who leads so he can serve.
Do you see?
Okay.
And now she transitioned.
And this is really, if I had to paraphrase the memorial about that, was supposed to be about Charlie, it's like the first part is about Christianity, okay?
The next part is about the stuff he did for her.
The next part, and I don't think women consciously do this.
It's kind of a subconscious thing.
And now the next part is going to be her nagging husbands, which is really out of your place as a woman.
As a woman, you're not really, and you're not really meant to tell men what to do if you're a more traditional woman, right?
You're not, you're not supposed to nag men.
and yeah that's what she goes into to all the men watching around the world accept charlie's challenge and embrace true manhood Be strong and courageous for your families.
Love your wives and lead them.
Love your children and protect them.
So notice all of the standards she's going to require for men and then the lack of standards she requires for women.
And by the way, if this is how she thinks, I'm just going to remind you, this is what she's in Turning Point was kind of like that anyway.
They had Nala on, right?
But I don't see it getting better.
I see it getting much more feminist.
Be the spiritual head of your home.
But please be a leader worth following.
So what is that insinuation?
Please be a leader worth following.
It's insinuating that most men are not worth following.
Because why would she have to say that?
Do you know what I mean?
It's like if you know, because it's like, why would you have to say that if you thought highly of most men?
Do you know what I mean?
It's like, I'm trying to think of a good analogy.
I'm kind of slow today.
But, you know, because if most people, okay, let's say, let's say, if I said, guys, please don't steal.
It would kind of be out of place if you're in a society that nobody steals.
You know what I'm saying?
Anyways, I'll just, I'll continue.
Wife, your wife is not your servant.
So now she's so she said that the men need to serve the women, but the wives are not servants to the men.
It's like, okay.
Your wife is not your employee.
Your wife is not your slave.
She is your helper.
You are not rivals.
You are one flesh working together for the glory of God.
I was Charlie's confidant.
I was his vault.
His closest and most trusted advisor, his best friend.
I poured into him and loved him so deeply, empowered him because his love for me drove me to be a better wife.
Every day he honored me and I prayed that I could be the wife that God needed me to be for my husband.
Women, I have a challenge for you too.
Be virtuous.
This is what they do.
They say virtuous, but they have no standards for virtue.
You know, like if I had to give a standard for virtue, I mean, I would start with virginity, right?
That would be number one.
But they never, they will never say that because that would be a standard.
And, you know, to be fair, that's something I might say.
I can't, I'm not going to live up to that, obviously.
I'm 28, you know.
But, you know, at least that's a standard.
But even the virgins are bitches nowadays.
I'll tell you what, I interviewed five virgins or declared virgins on my show.
There's one I might have believed.
And if you guys saw the men in her DMs, you would just give up.
I'm going to be honest.
You would just quit.
I can't say I would never do that because, but yeah, you would just quit, but I'll just, the person had enough money with a B, I'll say that.
Yeah, you would just quit.
Our strength is found in God's design for our role.
Yeah, you're right.
I'm 18 going, I'm 21.
I like that better.
We are the guardians.
We are the encouragers.
We are the preservers.
Guard your heart.
Now, again, again, what is this insinuating?
If the women need to guard their heart, who are they guarding it from?
The evil men?
Like, that's always the subconscious.
That's always the subconscious.
I mean, these days, men need to guard their heart from women.
Everything women project onto like, everything women say about men, women are.
So who needs to guard their hearts here?
And again, that it still blames female sin on the men.
It never puts it on the women.
And you do flows from it.
And if you're a mother, please recognize that is the single, most important ministry.
Now, again, again, this is gaslighting.
It's really gaslighting to take the position of a CEO and then say this is the single most important ministry.
Now, I know a lot of people are saying, well, maybe she'll just put men in charge.
Well, then why would you have the title of the CEO?
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like, why wouldn't you, that doesn't make any sense.
Because she still will have to make the hiring.
Like, I think personally, when I was, I think that's the most difficult part for women is we want to be friends with everybody.
We don't like hiring and firing and having really direct conversation.
That's very difficult for us.
So, I mean, that's going to put a lot of stress on the mother.
And so, you know, a lot of women have this idea.
They say, you know, they can do it all, but something's going to suffer.
And if she goes down this path, it's most likely going to be the kids.
But the challenge is, conservatives, they're not looking out in her best interest.
And what they're doing is they're essentially worshiping her now.
And she's going to get more praise doing this than watching the kids.
So women, you know, it's like we have natural proclivities.
We really like praise.
We really like being told good job.
We really like.
So when we get a lot of praise doing something, we like attention.
But the challenge is conservatives never recognize the proclivities that women have to certain sins.
Now, men have certain proclivities too.
But the problem is they recognize the male sin and not the other.
You get no makeup for war.
Yeah, and this isn't me trying to be mean.
I got no hatred in my heart.
But, you know, from my side, like my point of view, I don't think even the people around her are looking out for Erica because, you know, part of loving a woman is the ability to tell her no, that's not a good idea.
Now, she might not listen.
You have very little authority or control in this society.
But, you know, and that's, I think that's a lot of grievances people have with a lot of right-leaning men is they have such an inability, and it's almost worse than left-leaning men to tell their wives no.
That's not a good idea.
It's very rare that I find it in conservatism.
And it's because, you know, of this sort of, it's almost like brainwashing from a lot of church organizations because a lot of them are led by women.
And so, you know, conservatives will say, do the right thing, do the right thing, do the right thing.
And we're looking at them saying, you can't even tell your wife no.
Like, how are you going to say that you're a virtuous person if you don't have the ability to tell her no or if you're afraid of the crash out or looking bad?
And really, when I do streams like this, I know I'm going to be the one to look bad.
I mean, this is, I don't enjoy doing this, but nobody's going to say that this is not in her best interest.
In our home, because Charlie traveled a lot, we tried to travel with him where we could.
But I made sure that when Charlie returned from work.
So now this is going to be talking about what she did good as a wife.
You know, I just, again, I'm listening to this.
We're 18 minutes in.
I've heard very little about Charlie.
I'm just being honest.
I've just heard, I'm being honest with what I'm hearing.
And I know this is going through a lot of men's minds.
You know, I know there's men in the audience thinking this, but men aren't dumb enough to say it.
I am.
You know, so let me, I'll continue.
It was his sacred landing place away from the worries of the world.
I didn't make him feel guilty.
So here, again, it's I am awesome.
For being away too long or too much or getting home too late.
I always told him, Home is here for you.
This is what I did right.
And it'll be ready for you.
And I made it into this place where he wanted to be as soon as possible when he was on the road.
There was no keeping score between us.
We were a team working together for the same mission.
I never wanted to be the one standing between Charlie and the task that God prepared for him, had set for him.
And I knew Charlie would always do his best to help me with the same.
My marriage with Charlie was the best thing that ever happened to me.
And I know it was the best thing that ever happened to him as well.
He wanted everyone to experience that joy.
And that's what's so beautiful about God's design for marriage is that everyone can.
I could talk endlessly about it in years to come, I will.
But Charlie's mission above all was aimed directly at those who aren't married.
He named his organization well.
He knew things were not right with America and especially with young people.
And they needed a new direction.
Now, again, now it's going into get married.
I just is this about Charlie or is this a turning point?
You know, maybe that's what he would have wanted.
I don't know.
Charlie passionately wanted to reach and save the lost boys of the West.
The young man.
Yeah, I was the best thing to ever happen to Charlie Kirk.
Please donate.
That's that's that's what it sounds like.
But I think women, we never get feedback from men on how we talk ever.
So we don't have no idea how bad this sounds.
Feel like they have no direction, no purpose, no faith, and no reason to live.
The men wasting their lives on distractions and the men consumed with resentment, anger, and hate.
Charlie wanted to help them.
He wanted them to have a home with Turning Point USA.
And when he went onto campus, he was looking to show them a better path and a better life that was right there for the taking.
He wanted to show them that.
My husband, Charlie, he wanted to save young men just like the one who took his life.
That young man.
That young man on the cross, our Savior said, Father, forgive them, for they not know what they do.
Man, I forgive him.
Yeah, and so this is really my question And I've been mulling this over all day.
You know, this man has shown no repentance.
Now, no remorse.
I have not seen anything where he says he's sorry for what he did.
I haven't even seen him admit to what he did.
Now, I'd like to say, to be honest, I'll forgive most things with a genuine apology, if I'm being truly honest here.
But there has to, I would think there has to be some repentance, some remorse, maybe a penance.
You know, I'm sorry would be a good start.
I did that would be a second start.
And some sort of penance.
But I really want to hear from the people, you know, what did you think of this speech?
Maybe I'm off base.
If you think a man, I am.
You're welcome to call in and tell me.
But more importantly, should Christians forgive pure evil?
Because from where I stand, it seems like people just know that they can do whatever they want to Christians and nothing's going to happen because Christians just will not fight back.
And I could be wrong in that thought.
So, you know, why don't you guys call in?
We're going to put the Zoom link in the chat and let me know what you think.
Is Doug MPA on the line?
I am here.
How's it going?
Hey, Doug MPA.
So, what are your thoughts on the forgiveness part?
What did you think about her forgiving the killer?
First off, I smell feminism coming.
Yeah, it's coming.
You hear she's like, your wife is not your slave, and blah, blah, blah.
She pretty much said that your wife is your equal partner in all this.
And then she's going to reinforce the narrative by claiming credit for everything Charlie did.
He did this and this and this, but because I did this and this and this, she's freaking already doing it right now.
She's already doing it.
And she's going to take all of Charlie's hard work and twist it to her narrative.
And everyone's going to let her do it because she's Charlie Kirk's grieving widow.
Watch.
Feminism stuff.
Yeah, and that's the thing.
Men are afraid to say no to women.
Like, you know, oh, you did email it to me.
Okay.
Even in this position, it's a sad situation, but that doesn't mean do whatever you want.
You know what I mean?
Like, it doesn't mean you can do anything now, as sad as the situation is.
And I just don't, I think people want to milk this so bad.
They don't want to look like bad people either.
And if you're, if you're thinking about, if you're thinking about that, then you're not really being an honest person.
You know what I mean?
Yep, I agree.
Yeah, and you're not looking out for her.
You're looking out for yourself.
Go ahead.
Just the fact that she's, if she becomes CEO of Turning Point, like everything that Charlie wanted, because she's supposed to be a conservative.
And Charlie preached, he didn't preach her accepting a position of a major multi, you know, multi-million dollar company.
She's supposed to be staying home and taking care of the kids.
Yeah, and to be fair, though, I do, I could have seen Charlie signing off on something like this because he was, I mean, we know how he spoke before he died.
I don't want to speak ill of the dead, but like you know, you know the way he talked.
Um, I actually want to react to one more thing before we take callers because I just couldn't believe how grifty this was.
Just real fast.
So, about the forgiveness thing, that's one of the reasons why I'm not religious.
I'm a black belt and holding grudges, man.
I'm not even joking.
I hold grudges.
Yes, I do.
I'm petty and I hold grudges.
That's one of the best parts about not being religious.
And it's only because people will do things so egregious.
See, this forgiveness thing, they don't take into account like someone putting up a hole in your husband's neck, you know, or someone touching a child or something like that.
There's certain things that should not be forgiven.
Sorry.
You know why I got less religious?
Because I was more religious when I was younger, but it was because I realized all the best people I knew weren't religious, like the most moral acting, like people I knew.
And then I would look at like the religious people I knew, and it was like 9.5 out of 10 of them were afraid of their wives.
Like, how can you say you're afraid of God if you're afraid of your wife?
Oh, man, that's a good thing.
No, like, seriously, like, how, and I'm so sitting there and I'm thinking, like, even in the, these would be like very theologically sound people.
And I would just, and they would, they would have all the right arguments and all the debates, but I can tell, I can tell they're afraid of their wife.
And so I'm like, but how can you fear God if you fear a woman?
Like, that doesn't make any sense to me.
Yeah.
And that's, and that's what I see embodied like over and over again is just an extreme fear of women.
Yep.
Because it's supposed to be God, you know, a woman is supposed to respect the God and the man.
But if a woman's running things, it's kind of the other way around.
You know, a man is respecting the God and the woman.
But it always, yeah, it always just ends the same way.
They always just end up worshiping the woman.
Like it always, and I've just seen it so many times.
It just never, God, I've seen it over and over again in Catholics.
God, over.
And I just, I hate it when they try to gaslight me and they say, oh, it's like not the Orthodox.
It's not the Catholic.
And I'm like, bro, I went to 20 years of Catholic school.
Like, oh my God, there's so many super simps.
It's crazy.
But like, and so, but that was what did it for me.
And, but I think at a base level, conservatives don't realize what they're doing by putting women in charge of this stuff.
Because what happens is the most competent, logical people leave, and the men that are the most emotional stay.
Because who's going to, let's take Protestantism, right?
Who's going to stick around when there's like a concerts and juice at church?
It's going to be the prod, it's going to be the emotional guys or the men that go because of their wife.
Where the other way around, where it's, it's, and that's what I just kept finding was the men I knew that I would say lived in a most like if I if I didn't hear a word that came out of your mouth and I just saw how you acted the most moral guys I knew just weren't religious So you know what I think it is?
I think it's group behavior.
Whenever there's big groups, like this just always happens.
Because women always find a way.
Women have power in groups.
So they get all, they get everybody together and they just all get together and they start manipulating and then it's over.
That's why if I, a church I would like is a church women are banned from, where it's just the men and then the men can go home and teach their wives at home.
And then you believe whatever I say, honey.
That would be my church.
Go ahead.
And that's one of the things, because remember, men and women fraternizing together is a new thing.
It's only been that way since like the 70s.
You know what I'm saying?
So it used to be the guys would hang out and have their lodges and all that stuff like that.
But the women would get together and plot how to collectively influence their husbands to get what they wanted.
Understand what I'm saying?
Yeah.
And so it's like, so it just seems like I'm watching a woman use her husband's death to gain power.
Oh my gosh.
That's what I couldn't verbalize earlier what made it feel so weird to me.
But that's what it just appears.
It seems like everybody's using his death to gain as much power as they possibly can.
That's what it appears like.
I'm gonna watch this.
Caller, sorry, I put the thing in the chat prematurely.
I forgot I had this clip.
Some people.
And so, but here's the thing.
Anybody that has this thought, they make you seem like you're a bad person for even thinking this.
You know, and I'm not hating on her, but it's almost as if if you notice this is going on, the women especially and the feminine men, they have a tendency to just shame you and say you're a bad person for noticing.
We're critical of the fact that she and others walked out and they had the pyrotechnics going.
And I completely reject that because you have to understand turning point events.
This was an homage to Charlie.
He loved that stuff.
And we all love that stuff when we go to a turning point event.
You walk out and they've got the pyrotechnics and they've got the smoke going, the dry ice smoke.
And it's just so fun.
And it makes the event feel.
Yeah.
So again, this argument, hey, Charlie loved this stuff.
That's a fair point.
That's a fair point.
Big and celebratory.
And that's what they wanted to do to make this event feel big and celebratory, not a maudlin, sad, tears crying, you know, good God, this terrible assassin type event.
They wanted it to be a celebration of life, you know, which is not unusual.
It's just they did it Charlie Kirk style and turning point style.
So to me, it made perfect sense that they did use the pyrotechnics.
And Doug MPI, if you have any thoughts as I'm listening to this, feel free to jump in.
Okay.
No sane person was thinking that meant Erica was celebrating Charlie's death.
I mean, it's like only the most.
No, they're saying you're insane for thinking anything else.
I don't think it's insane at all.
And at the end of this clip, I'm going to show you why I don't think it's insane.
Most cynical bastards would even suggest that.
But of course, you know, we're dealing with these leftists.
So, you know, now it's the shaming leak, which if you even think that you're a cynical bastard.
She comes out and she talks about Charlie's message and Charlie, like what he wanted to do.
And I think, I'm trying to find out for my team, is SAT 2, it came chronologically before SOT 1, right?
Because I want to play these in sequential order.
I think it did.
Let's play SAT 2.
Charlie passionately wanted to reach and save the lost boys of the West.
The young men who feel like they have no direction, no purpose, no faith, and no reason to live.
The men wasting their lives on distractions, and the men consumed with resentment, anger, and hate.
Charlie wanted to help them.
He wanted them to have a home with Turning Point USA.
And when he went onto campus, he was looking to show them a better path and a better life that was right there for the taken.
He wanted to show them that.
My husband, Charlie.
Okay, we listened to this already.
He wanted.
And it's exactly right, Michael.
I mean, he, Charlie was there on these campuses in large part to save people like Tyler Robinson, his killer.
People who had gotten brainwashed into magical far-left thinking about issues like gender and so on.
And to tell them that there could be, that Jesus envisioned something better for them, that their lives could be better, that they did not have to go in this downward spiral into which whatever online obsession throws you, or a society that doesn't value young white boys can throw you, or a university setting for too many semesters in a row can throw you.
I don't know what happened to Tyler Robinson because they're saying forgiveness.
Let's talk about that.
Yes.
You know, one thing that Charlie excelled at, he excelled at many, many things, but one thing he excelled at was throwing issues into stark relief.
Charlie's opponents would always try to muddy up the waters.
You're seeing this now after a spate of left-wing violence that's going on for many years now, many, many years, but certainly we can recall the BLM riots, which were encouraged by the left-wing authorities and which killed dozens of people and burned a lot of the country down, all the way up through the murder of Christian children at the Covenant School here in Minneapolis, all the way up to the assassination of Charlie Kirk from left-wing militants.
And I'm leaving out a lot of other people too.
You know, they try to say, well, it's both sides and it's unclear.
Charlie spoke about reason.
And Charlie's.
And then Erica Kirk did the thing that stunned the world.
I mean, if you were a Christian, you weren't totally stunned because this is what we are taught to do.
It's just incredible.
Which side do I want to be on?
Which and him leaving her the love notes, she said, which was their secret weapon between.
We're all somewhat surprised by the witness and forgiveness yesterday.
You know, these things are not opposed.
And in fact, one without the other will lead to the detriment of both.
You know, the, yeah, it's a woman.
I grew up as a Muslim and a Muslim girl.
I don't know.
I'm skipping to the end to show you what I'm talking about.
Enough about Christianity.
So this whole thing, they go back and forth, right?
They talk about the forgiveness.
They talk about all this stuff.
Vanity to say if I talk about Charlie dying.
If what I witnessed is rooted in faith or culture.
But what struck me the most was how even though death is heavy, and this was by nature a sad occasion, the entire event carried a celebratory spirit that honored life.
That contrast hit me deeply.
In Islam, even though we believe that good people go to heaven, the relationship with God is taught through fear.
I cannot imagine envy as the right one to think of anybody in the world looking at Erica Kirk on the day she said her final goodbye to her husband and feeling envy.
But having been there, we get it, right?
The people who watched it on TV get it.
When inflation jumps, when you hear the national debt is over 37 trillion bucks, do you ever think maybe now would be a good time to buy some gold?
Well, it would be.
They put a gold ad in this.
Do you see like we're all just milking every penny off of this, huh?
You put a gold ad in a video.
Okay, I quit.
Okay, but we'll go back to the original question.
So my question is, should Christians forgive pure evil?
i'm gonna start by bringing up sean yes make sure to like the video if you haven't already Subscribe if you haven't already.
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Go ahead.
Okay.
Sean, welcome to the show.
Should Christians forgive pure evil?
Yeah, so I guess the way I would answer that is not in the sort of new age Christian forgiveness, which is more you forgive them like regardless of what they did.
And it's the whole forgive and forget mentality, right?
So you see a lot of Christians, whether it's, you know, Nala who thinks, you know, she can dunk her head in water and suddenly she's cleansed of all her sins and all she has to do is say a few Bible verses and she's good.
And by definition, everyone should just forgive her for all her past sins.
I think that sort of lack of human accountability, lack of reconciliation and repentance, I think that should not be the case.
I think Christians in the sort of, you know, Old Testament, New Testament, whatever you want to call it, should have the sense of forgiveness, but more like it doesn't wash away the sin.
They still need to repent.
They still need to be sort of punished for their sins.
So there shouldn't be an enabling of this sort of bad behavior.
And the reason why I say they should forgive, I think true forgiveness is more to let yourself detach from any sort of animosity that you have because it's just going to eat away at you or any sort of jealousy or what have you.
I think being able to forgive is not necessarily accepting what the person did as right.
I think it's more about releasing the own anger and hatred you have in your heart towards somebody, which would, you know, if you ask most people, it tends to sort of consume a lot of headspace in their mind as well as it tends to.
Is there, yeah, so you're saying like let go of the anger.
Go ahead.
Exactly.
Like do it for yourself because it's going to let go of the anger and the hatred and animosity.
And that's going to be better for yourself in terms of your own life.
So it gets rid of your own emotional burden, but not necessarily believe that it washed away their sins.
They still need to repent and they still need to be severely punished for their actions.
Okay.
And I think that mentality is why, you know, it no longer really exists in Christian culture.
And that's why Christianity has become a total and utter joke.
And there's a reason why sort of the, you know, Islam tends to be more respected in their social circles because they believe people are going straight to hell.
They're going to burn.
You know, the Chinese Communist Party, even though they're not, you know, religious in mainland China, they believe in a strict punishment system.
If, you know, you do drugs, you die.
You kill someone, you die.
Like, they don't take that.
Everyone fears the government as almost like a god in the sense that they know not to act right.
Or sorry, they know to act right.
Otherwise, they'll be severely punished.
And there's a lot of respect that comes with that sense of fear.
And so that's sort of my take on it: you know, I think people need to really fear consequences in order to act right and be more respectful, so to speak.
What did you think of the speech?
Did you think, did you hear the thoughts I had on it?
Did you get the same vibe or did you think something else?
I mean, I got the same vibe.
I mean, you have to look at it, you know, and you know, I feel bad for Erica Kirk, right?
Obviously, her husband died, and she's likely going through a lot of grieving.
But let's be honest, if Charlie Kirk wasn't famous, does anyone really think she would have married him because he's such a good guy?
Well, no, right?
You look at her Instagram account.
She has like now 6 million followers.
And so you just have to see the reality of how people behave in their worst moments.
And you will see Erica Kirk will still want to be in the spotlight.
She will still want to be attending a lot of events and she'll do the whole Cheryl Sandberg playbook, which is when her husband dies tragically, she'll write a book.
I guarantee you in the next year or two, she's going to publish a book.
And within the next five years, she's going to be married to another rich, successful guy.
100% on the money.
I can tell you that right now.
Do you know what's a weird thought?
Someone messaged me that her next boyfriend is probably there.
I mean, it could be.
Like, she'll probably meet him there.
Jokers are saying money is evil, especially when given to women.
Sorry for the opinion from England.
Well, I mean, that's ironic with just giving me $5, but okay.
Sorry, Sean, keep going.
No, I was going to say, you know, there's a lot of successful, you know, rich guys in conservative social circles, right?
It's how Candace Owens met her current husband.
And it's likely how, you know, Erica will meet her next husband, if we're being honest.
And so, you know, I think this, I don't want to say she wanted her husband to die.
I think that's a little bit ridiculous.
Sorry, go ahead.
Wait, wait.
No, no, no, no.
Don't go.
Sorry.
I was just saying, looking at something.
Not you.
But yeah, that makes sense.
Sorry, I'm going to go on to the next caller if that's okay.
Go ahead.
No worries.
Okay.
Thanks for calling in.
Okay.
All right.
Next, I want Jackson.
Hey, Jackson, how's it going?
What are your thoughts on the topic?
Should we forgive pure evil as Christians?
No.
Okay.
Do you want to expand upon that?
Yeah, it's pretty simple.
If you didn't grow up in modern-day nice church, I guess is the polite way to say it, where everybody's just more concerned about being nice than being righteous.
It's a really simple answer.
No.
Not only are we not expected to forgive pure evil, we're not called to.
There's multiple verses in the Bible that call for, I'm not going to say war, because, you know, that's, but call for, you know, enforcing justice and punishing wrongdoers.
And there's such thing as righteous judgment, righteous judgment.
That's where people get the whole do not judge verse wrong.
Like, that's not what the, that's not what it says.
Okay, what do you, what do you, what do you think people get wrong about it?
Do you want to go into a little more detail?
They don't.
They literally take like three, like a one sentence out of that, and then they don't expand upon it.
You know, they say, Don't judge lest you be judged.
They don't expand on the whole verse, which is saying, Hey, don't, you know, don't judge hypocritically.
Like, nature, be prepared.
You can, you're supposed to, you're supposed to judge as a Christian.
I, I, I'm about to say that is like majority of your job, but like, you know, you have to be making sure you're not doing the same thing or understand that you're also going to be judged, which most people under, in at least from my discussion, have said, Yeah, we understand.
And there's, there's calls, even there's, there's reasons to justify like, you know, taking out evil, you know, you know, going to war, going to violence.
And it's like the three reasons in Christianity is for defense, enforcing justice and punishing wrongdoers.
And I think in this, in the Kirk situation, you know, where a lot of people were calling for civil war, I remember that was a thing that you could argue all three were in this situation.
But yeah, we're called to give forgiveness, but forgiveness also required repentance.
And people keep forgetting that part.
And repentance requires work.
I'm back.
So I wanted to.
I'm right there with JC.
I don't think that I don't.
Why do people automatically associate holding on to like not forgiving someone with it being bad?
It's just like we need to stop thinking that if a man gets angry, that he's he's going to get violent.
I understand what I'm saying.
We have this thing: if you don't forgive somebody, it's going to no, it's like some of the best motivators was you getting bullied and you harboring that rage towards your bully to do better in life.
Yeah, um, so Doug, oh, funny, funny, you mentioned it.
I had a quote for you from the Bible about anger because there's such a thing as righteous anger.
Yeah, exactly.
Ephesians 4:26 through 27 says, Be angry and do not sin.
So basically, you are allowed to be angry as a Christian, but you just cannot sin because of your anger.
Manco Smash, I think you had something similar.
So I brought you up too.
He's on Twitter, guys, if you want to follow him.
But what did you have to say on the topic?
I think you were the one who originally DM'd me about this.
Wait, am I unmuted now?
Yeah, you're unmuted.
Welcome to the show.
All right.
Yeah.
So the whole thing was about Erica Kirk doing this performative, I forgive him, even though he's completely unrepentant.
And this is something I guess that's associated with, I mean, I'm not into all the different beliefs of all the different denominations.
I'm not an expert on that.
But apparently, from what I've seen, this is a very common thing among evangelicals that they do this like performative forgiveness, irrespective of whether the person's repentant.
And the Bible's very clear that you should forgive, but only in response to repentance.
And it's actually pretty insane when you do forgiveness without repentance because you're essentially letting them off the hook when they don't even agree that they did anything wrong.
But what all of the like big Christian accounts on X have been saying all day, including Matt Walsh, I'm very disappointed in his take on this, is that, oh, it's okay if you forgive because it doesn't matter because you can still punish.
And it's like, no, that's not what forgiveness means.
When you forgive someone, it means I'm not pressing charges.
When you forgive someone, it's commonly used, for example, when you forgive a debt, when you forgive a debt, it means they don't have to pay you back.
So forgiveness absolutely means that you do not seek further accountability.
You don't seek punishment.
And for them to say, like, oh, forgiveness means, you know, just that you don't have vengeance in your heart anymore, but you still want them punished.
That's crazy.
And it's really like new agey therapy speak.
It's the kind of thing that you would have in like secular therapy has nothing to do with Christianity or the Bible.
And it's crazy to me that it's so appealing to women because what do women want to do?
Women want to virtue signal.
They want to feel good about themselves.
And this ties directly into that, which is why it's so successful in the whole New Agey therapy thing.
So the fact that this completely secular like belief system has just completely come into modern Christianity, especially evangelical Christianity, goes to show what Pearl has been saying all along, which is that modern Christianity, which I always call cuck Christianity, is run by women and for women.
Yeah, I see.
There's a tweet I have here.
It says Erica Kirk forgives her husband's killer.
Okay, but would she have lunch with him, introduce her kids to him, let a friend marry him?
Oh, it's not about that.
So when a Christian says they forgive me for an insult, I should expect them to be lying and still be spiteful.
Can I jump in on that real quick?
Yeah, go ahead.
I agree mostly.
Somebody's got bad background noise.
Who is that?
Oh, there.
Okay, go ahead.
I agree with mostly everything Mako just said.
But looking into the Bible, even says in John 1, 9, it says, God forgives the sins of those who confess and repent.
So this isn't even like a free thing.
This is not something you should be giving out freely.
People are supposed to come and confess their sins and repent to get forgiveness.
And then, you know, ignoring this from the political side or ignoring this from the religious side, just looking at it on the political side as well, her forgiving him on live television was not the greatest thing.
I understand where she's coming from.
I just, it wasn't a great thing because Democrats and liberals are going to use her forgiving him to beat, just beat conservatives and red pillars over the head.
I mean, we've already seen this week how unhinged Destiny got.
Yeah.
So you're going to hear this line.
I guarantee you, you're going to hear this line from a Democrat or a liberal or a blue pill or whatever.
They're going to say, well, his wife forgave him.
So why forgive him?
Exactly.
You already know what they're going to say.
Yeah.
And just or his wife has moved on.
Why haven't you moved on?
And I just see this.
If you could share my screen for a second.
I just see this like young ladies in a world of Cardi Bs being Erica Kirk.
And I understand the sentiment.
I know the women are trying to come together, but it just almost seems like we're worshiping Erica Kirk now.
And I don't know if that's the best place for a grieving widow to be.
Like if we're really looking out in her best interest, it is the best place for her to be right now in the spotlight on a pedestal leading a $20 million organization when she's got two kids at home.
But I don't think a single person saying that because nobody wants to hurt her feelings.
I mean, my two cents.
I think people want to use her as this like symbol and rallying cry, but I don't really think she's equipped for that.
Like, I think that if you keep doing this with her, it's, I mean, she's just a mother.
She wasn't like number two at turning point or anything like that.
And her taking over turning point is just going to be a figurehead role.
She's not going to actually be in charge.
She's not the personality that was making everything work.
She was a mom who was at home with her kids.
So trying to take her and turn her, transform her into this like big girl boss.
I don't know.
I don't think it's going to work out.
And the women keep saying that, you know, she had like a Bible reading app before, but I'm just keep thinking, do you know how different that is?
Do you know how many employees Turning Point has?
I don't actually know, but if I had to guess, it's probably 100 to 200 employees.
If I had to guess, I think I looked it up a few days ago.
It's several hundred and their revenues were like $80 million or something.
Do you know how hard that job is?
I mean, most men aren't able to, like, most men could not do that job.
Most men.
And now you're putting a woman whose natural proclivities who doesn't have the experience and her natural proclivities really aren't designed for that role.
I just don't think anyone seems to be.
It just seems like everyone wants to see what they can get out of his death instead of having an honest conversation about what is best, you know, for the grieving family.
I think it was, I think, was it Stephen Crowder or Andrew Wilson that mentioned that this will create a power vacuum?
It was one of those two, I believe.
Oh, I didn't hear that, but yeah, that sounds like something they would say, to be honest.
They would be one of the few to acknowledge this.
Glenn, welcome to the show.
JC, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to drop you, but thanks for watching.
Thanks for joining.
No problem.
All right.
Yo, hold on.
All right, Glenn.
What are your thoughts on the topic?
Do you think Christians should forgive pure evil?
So forgiveness is not for the individual.
It's for the person that's been grieved against, right?
Like, I can forgive somebody for murdering somebody, but that doesn't mean I'm going to help let them avoid the consequences of murdering somebody, right?
Like, I'm forgiving you, so I'm not harboring any of that resentment.
So I'm being like infringed upon, right?
In my faith, but that doesn't mean like I'm going to let you avoid the consequences of your actions, right?
Like, it doesn't mean you get to escape justice.
Manko, is that the did you say that, or was that JC?
That sounds like the opposite of what one of you were saying.
So I'm just curious.
Yeah, I said that's that's like meaningless forgiveness that's all about, I guess, your own personal emotions that has no effect on the outside world, which I think is just kind of strange.
Because, so, for example, if your wife cheated on you and then you forgave her, but you're like, oh, I forgive you, but I'm still going to divorce you.
What?
Does that make any sense?
It doesn't.
That makes perfect sense.
I forgive you for the wrong that you've done, but that doesn't mean you get to avoid the consequences of your actions.
Right?
Like, then what?
If somebody says, like, I'm sorry for stealing from you, are you, but you're not going to, so that means you're just not going to like call the cops for them, stealing from you?
Like, does that make sense?
Yeah, I mean, pretty much that's exactly what it means when you, when you forgive someone, you're letting them off the hook.
That's what forgiveness does.
No, no, no, no.
I don't think that's forgiveness at all.
Forgiveness is not absence of justice because in the Bible, it says that love does not rejoice when injustice is done.
So, if someone has done something wrong and they get away with it, that is injustice.
So, when a politician like the president or governor pardons someone, isn't that a form of forgiveness?
That's their position.
They have the grounds to render that level of administration, administrative, you know, forgiveness or menace or some type of, you know, resolve there.
But that doesn't mean that the individual is forgiven.
Like, for somebody gets pardoned, they've already served some time.
They've been in prison for however long, and then now they're being pardoned.
They're not having to do the full sentence, but they still had to face a consequence.
The consequences.
He just pardoned Joe Biden, pardoned his son.
He didn't, to me, that was wrong to begin with.
That was illegal.
If you ask me, I think that that was just my opinion.
Like, how are you going to give him a pardon all the way from 2014, you know, and to the future so he can't be tried?
I mean, that was, yeah.
I just don't understand why we're still on this whole, you have to forgive somebody or it will destroy you type of thing.
I think that's some of the biggest bunch of garbage ever.
Well, I think the forgiveness aspect is like let him finish.
Let him finish.
Second, yeah, do you want to finish what you're saying?
And then you can go.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
I just, I think that that's a dumb narrative that like that, like power people, powerful people tell weaker or poorer people.
I don't know.
There's some kind of nefarious, maybe that's not what I'm trying to say.
I think there's some kind of nefariousness to it to say that you have to forgive somebody or somehow it's going to have a negative impact on your life.
I don't think so.
I really don't.
I think that I think that there are people in times where you should hold grudges for life.
Life.
Well, I mean, like, I say like you can forgive them.
You don't have to forget what they did.
Yeah, but like, why do you have to forgive them, though?
Like, like, like, do you think that there's ever a positive reason or a power, a positive state of being that involves not forgiving somebody?
Or do you just think it's a blanket thing?
Well, it's like, I look at it like this.
Like, we ask God to forgive us of our wrongdoings, the things that we have done that are egregious or have offended him, right?
And he extends that level of forgiveness.
He says, repent and sin no more, right?
And we are able to commune again with him until we breach that, you know, we do something wrong again.
Then we have to ask for forgiveness.
So it's like, it's a practice, the same thing that he set the standard and it's like, do as I have done, right?
Like, so as I have forgiven you for your wrongdoings, you forgive others that do wrong towards you.
That doesn't mean that they avoid the consequence of their actions because every action does have a consequence.
I don't think so.
I think some people have no consequences for their actions.
Well, I can see that in recent times.
I don't know.
I won't lie.
What you're saying is like confusing me a little bit.
Like, I think I can clear this up.
Yeah, go ahead.
So there's two different definitions of forgive that are kind of being put out here.
Okay.
So my way of looking at forgiveness, and I think it's the way that's the correct way, is that when you forgive someone, it's like a pardon.
It's like forgiving a debt.
When you forgive a debt, that means they don't have to pay you back.
When someone owes you money and you say, I forgive your debt, it doesn't mean, well, I don't resent that you haven't been paying me.
However, you still got to pay the money back.
Like, it means that you don't have to pay them back anymore.
Then the other definition, and this I kind of associate more with like a modern new agey therapy type of outlook is that you're just saying, I am, I am not going to feel resentment anymore.
And that this is like makes me feel good because now I don't have to carry the resentment.
And that's all it needs.
Oh, and that's almost like it's like a semantics argument in a way.
So I want to say that it's like Erica Kirk saying, I don't want to carry hatred in my heart anymore.
So I forgive you, therefore, I no longer have hatred in my heart.
Does that make sense?
You're not so bad about carrying hatred in your heart, though.
I don't think it's a bad thing all the time.
I really don't.
But, Doug, are you speaking from a Christian perspective?
No, I'm not.
I'm not.
Conceptually.
So I'm on social media.
Because in the Bible, Christ does command that we should forgive, although the Bible also says that they should repent first and then you forgive.
No, it doesn't actually.
It doesn't actually say that.
Maxwell, Maxwell, I brought you up.
I guess I don't want to make this too in the weeds about religion, but I'll go a little bit further before, you know.
But you said that they are misunderstanding the Bible.
I'm just curious.
What do you think they're misunderstanding?
Hello, can you hear me?
I can hear you.
Go ahead.
Okay, so it's pretty bad, actually.
First of all, Manko Smash, you're misunderstanding the scripture big time.
You're equating what God's forgiveness is according to how he wants his subjects to forgive.
Those are not the same thing.
In order to have salvation through God, repentance.
But in order for us to follow in God's footsteps and mirror him, we need to be forgiving.
The Bible says in Matthew, we need to forgive up to 77 times.
Do you remember that scripture?
Yeah.
I know what you're referring to.
Yeah, up to 77 times.
When Jesus died in Luke 23, 34, he said, Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.
It doesn't mean didn't know that he shot a person.
What it means is they don't know the extent of the evil that they wrought, even in killing God's son.
I don't know.
I think this is where Christians kind of lose me because I'm like, look, I'm not that religious.
I'm not going to argue the Bible with you.
I'm not going to argue the Bible with you, but I think it's where you lose kind of logical people because most people that do wrong things know exactly what they're doing.
I mean, come on.
Come on.
Like, let's just be pragmatic.
Like, come on.
This dude, this dude, you're telling me he woke up that day, drove three hours, got a gun, got on top of the, he could have got on top and left, but he got on top, sniped, ran away, and then he didn't know the extent.
Like, come on.
Let me clear.
And I know, I'm sure there's like, it seems like, and this is just to, it just seems like people make the Bible say anything.
Like, it's just, I mean, this is where you kind of lose people just in general.
My opinion is, I don't think America has like truly like been able to like decompress or like really process everything yet to like say that she forgives this guy.
I think it's more politically correct for her to virtue signal.
Like, I know it's not, it's not political.
It's not political at all.
It's biblical.
Now, I agree with Pearl.
I personally used to be a very avid Christian.
I'm not anymore.
What I'm here to do is clarify her position.
This isn't new agey stuff, Manco.
This isn't new age.
All right.
All right.
I need to start pushing back because now I'm being told, I'm being told by an apostate how the Bible works.
So, an apostate.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
So, sit down, man.
No, stop.
I'm going to talk now.
Luke 17 says, verse 3: if another, and this is Christ's words, if another believer sins, rebuke that person.
Then if there is repentance, forgive.
That's what the Bible says.
But forgiveness does not mean a void of consequence.
I don't know.
If I'm being honest, Glenn, it kind of made sense what he was saying earlier.
Like that made more sense to me.
And I'm not that religious.
I could be wrong, but I'm just saying, like, what he was saying, the thing about forgiving means getting rid of, like, forgiving a debt.
That kind of, that made sense to me.
Well, it's, it's like this: like, well, one, forgiveness is not an option, it's a command, right?
Biblically speaking.
You see that in Matthew 6, 14 or 6, verse 14 to 15, right?
For you, forgive others of their trespasses, your heavenly father will also forgive you.
But for you that don't forgive others of their trespasses, neither will the father forgive your trespasses.
So it's like, if we want our sins to be forgiven that we commit against God, then we need to also forgive, right?
You know, do that action that he has given you, right?
But also, like, because forgiveness mirrors God's character, essentially, but forgiveness does not mean ignoring of justice, right?
Because God says the vengeance is mine, says the Lord.
So let justice, let God deal with the vengeance and face it, letting them deal with their consequences, but not you implementing it.
I'm not going to be able to quote the Bible or anything, but I'm just thinking about the patterns I've seen in my life.
And a woman taking that definition and changing it would kind of make sense to me to like, yeah, that would, that would kind of make sense.
Women do it all the time.
When Manco was talking, that just seemed to make a lot of sense.
I was just, but I'm not, I'm not a Bible, like, I don't know the Bible through and through, so I don't know.
So, Pearl, it's just when you, when you said that, it was almost like a clarity that made everything that I disagreed with before kind of make sense.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So when it comes to something, there's this concept, statutory constructions, how different courts interpret different laws and read them together so they're not contradictory.
So I stated a very clear kind of commandment from Jesus and all that kind of stuff.
And then other people pointed out: well, in other parts of the Bible, he doesn't talk about repentance.
He doesn't always mention it.
Well, here's the thing, but he does explicitly mention it some of the time.
And he does say, for example, if there is repentance, forgive.
So the fact that he doesn't always say, if there is repentance in every other part of the Bible, doesn't mean that that condition isn't there.
And it doesn't mean that when he did say it, that's now nullified and like overridden.
It just means that you don't always say like every caveat every time you speak.
So I think the Bible's pretty clear and it never contradicts that position.
The Bible never says forgive even if there isn't repentance, but it does say if there is repentance, forgive.
So you should take the interpretation.
I know this is the problem.
This is why people criticize like Protestant churches where instead of having like a hierarchy of an establishment church that actually officially decides what the Bible means and then tells everyone, and then they follow that.
In Protestant churches, everyone kind of decides for themselves.
That's like sola scriptura or something.
And so people can get these very wildly differently differing interpretations.
But that's my take on it.
I understand.
Okay, guys, I'm going to drop you because I do appreciate all the points, but this is more of the weeds that I was actually trying to get.
I was, you guys are all interesting.
So I enjoyed the back and forth, but it's more of the weeds.
Can I leave with one question, though?
Just the question, real quick.
Okay.
If the idea is that if Erica forgave the shooter, then should the shooter be set free?
Absolutely not.
No.
Absolutely not.
Yeah.
She forgave him.
If Erica is not logical, then she could do that, right?
If she was the president or like the governor or someone in the position of the case.
I bet, I'm sorry, with the way women are, I bet she would.
That's like.
No, I don't think so.
I don't think so.
Wait, hold on.
What pro sign is if it would because her forgiving him is performative in and of itself.
I think that if her handlers were able to say, you letting him free would gain this amount of fame or this amount of cloud or this amount of money, there would be a scenario where she'd do it.
I guarantee it.
And then women, you know, they have this need to, oh, he can, he can reform and he can this and he can that.
So there would be a scenario that she would do it.
I guarantee it.
No, what I'm pointing out.
Like, I don't put it past any of these.
No, there's women that have gone to court and testified that they don't want the death penalty for someone who's like killed a husband or a relative.
Yeah.
I mean, I saw this thing on Twitter.
I don't know if it was real or not.
So, but it was basically of this woman who allowed her like mother's killer back into her home.
And then she got killed too.
Like she let him stay.
And I'm like, that's sad.
I'm not, I'm not saying it's real because I don't know, but the fact that like I could believe that would happen, I just, my God, I just, I could see a woman doing that.
But historically, we had to go with the guy that, you know, killed the other guy.
So it doesn't make sense.
It kind of makes sense to me that we have sympathy for the other guy.
But wanted to point out, like, when I asked that question, guys on the panel are like, no, he shouldn't go away free.
Well, why?
Because although she may forgive them, that doesn't mean that he gets to avoid justice.
So you can forgive somebody that there still is justice that needs to be served.
Yeah.
Well, another aspect of this is that she's not the only victim here.
The entire country is also a victim.
And the Count of Monte Cristo, he, the, the guy, the count, his girlfriend or his, you know, his wife, whatever, finally recognizes him and he still wants to go after the guy that like threw him in prison and stole his girl.
And the sea before he goes after him, she's like, oh, you don't have to do this.
And he said one of the coldest lines in movie history.
He said, if you ever love me, don't rob me of my hate.
It's all I have.
And then he goes off to go fight the guy.
I'm of that camp.
Don't rob someone of their hate when it comes to being aggrieved.
They must be wiped out.
They must be wiped out without a doubt.
That's the masculine imperative.
They must be destroyed.
You can give them an art.
I agree with that.
Okay, well, thank you guys all.
This was a really cool conversation.
And I did it out.
Oh, my God.
Okay.
30 seconds.
30 seconds.
And I'm going to go on to the next column.
Yeah, you remember Austin Metcap and the black kid stabbed him or something at the football game?
Yeah.
So his father did this whole forgiveness, and I looked it up.
This is the quote.
This is what the father of the dead son said.
People ask me, how can you forgive this other person?
I said, I forgive the other person because the forgiveness is not for him.
The forgiveness is for me, so I can have peace.
His life is destroyed.
My life is destroyed.
That's the quote.
I feel that.
I feel that.
I agree with that.
So he kind of did the same thing.
Yeah.
I think that's real enough.
I don't.
If somebody killed my Chad's son, I would kill, I would, I would want the death penalty.
But you can have both, Pearl.
You can have both.
You can want the death penalty.
I don't.
I don't think.
No, I don't think so because I think I would have to have some hatred in my heart to want to see somebody electrocuted to death.
Actually, I would say that's actually more merciful than having them serve a lot of people.
Yeah, no, I think I disagree.
Prison isn't so bad.
My cousin used to go to prison.
He kind of liked it in there.
No, I'm dead.
I'm like, I don't think it's as bad as they really make it out to be.
I mean, these women are voting for this stuff.
I mean, the amount of money they spend on prisoners, it can't be that bad.
It depends which prison.
That's true.
That's true.
But yeah, he.
Pearl, I talked to a guy who was in prison and he went to a private prison and they let him have Xbox in there.
Yeah, that's what I mean.
I mean, my cousin got drugs in prison.
Yeah, I mean, he couldn't.
He did get cleaner during when he went to jail because he couldn't afford the drugs, but he's dead now.
Anyways, thanks for calling.
They're more expensive, but they have everything in there.
And you can just buy cell phones from the guard.
Yeah, I know, I know.
So thanks for calling in, guys.
We're going to move on to the next caller's part.
All right, Doug MPA.
I think that's what, like, it's just whenever you talk to religion, and no offense to anyone coming on, you guys are all very great, respectful, smart men, and I appreciate the contributions.
But the challenge I get with Christianity at times is everyone just thinks they're right.
And it just seems like people can make the Bible say anything.
And unless you just have a ton of free time to like, like, and I think this is where you lose the men that are like working a lot.
Because I just think of like, again, I always say my father is the most moral man I've ever met in my life.
And I do think he'd identify as Catholic, but he's not that religious.
Do you think he has the time to go think through every, like to read the Bible like cover to cover and think through every like theological thought?
No, he's raising 10 kids.
Like he had like this giant company.
He doesn't have time to do all that.
And it just didn't make sense to me.
Like, because some of the religious people, it would be like, oh, if he didn't, so let's say my dad, he did get baptized, but let's say he did it.
And his actions from birth to death were moral.
Like just a moral person.
He doesn't need the Bible to tell him.
He's just that way.
But he didn't have the time that Unemployed people have, or you know, people like me, right?
I have the time to debate this stuff.
But, like, that doesn't make sense to me that.
But then people get really emotional when I say this.
Like, that just doesn't make sense.
But then they'll say, well, my authority figure said this, or the book says this, but then they'll all put it in a different way.
And then I just got, I just, you lose me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's just, it's the performative nature.
And then honestly, the performative.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
That's what my dad said.
I asked him why he wasn't religious because again, he's the most moral person I've met in my life.
And I'm like, dad, how are you not religious?
Like, you act better than most religious people.
And you do.
And he said to me, I was sick of gay med lecturing to get out of talk.
Yeah.
Here's the thing.
Do you think a guy like your father, you know, let's say something were to happen to a member of his family?
Like, I just don't think that a motivated, ambitious man would let hating someone that aggrieved him affect his life in a negative way.
I just don't see it.
I just don't.
No, I mean, the thing is, if that happened to my dad, he wouldn't, he's just not an angry person.
Like, so I don't know.
There's just people that aren't really wired that way.
They're not emotional.
So he just wouldn't, he just doesn't really have like anger in him.
That's the best way I could just.
But that's the thing about it, though.
You're automatically associating not forgiving someone or hating someone because there's something wrong with anger.
See, I don't.
But you know, I told you, I'm Mr. Hold the Grudge.
There are people I hold the grudge against for the rest of my life.
I'm not going to forgive him.
But you just get to the point where you just don't even think about him anymore.
No, but I don't think that it's a bad thing.
I'm saying there's some people that aren't wired like that.
Yeah.
Like they just aren't that way.
I would hold all.
Yeah, I would hold the grudge.
I'm a woman.
I would hold the grudge, but yeah, we should have a competition.
Maybe one day we'll end up hating the same person, Pearlie, and we'll see who can hold the grudge the longest.
Yeah, I mean, but I'll let it go if I get a genuine apology, actually.
If I get a genuine repentance and like, I am sorry, like, if I think I have a genuine apology, I'll let it go.
Because the thing about it is, you've been done wrong.
That's what people don't understand.
They say, oh, it's your responsibility when the person did you wrong.
You should be able to sit there and not forgive this person.
And now I can see if the person made a like, let's say the guy that took out Charlie Kirk went to his wife and said, I apologize.
I'm sorry.
Then she can forgive.
But like, he's made no effort, anything like that.
And I would say, what do you think about Pearlie?
People that are offered an apology and they still don't like a heartfelt apology and they still don't forget the person.
I think it's their right to.
I personally would.
If I got a heart, the problem is there's been times where I haven't forgiven somebody after they apologized.
And it's because I did not, I think hindsight being 2020, I did not believe that they were sorry or really had a penance in any way.
I think if I thought that they did.
Do you know what I mean?
Because sometimes it's like you got to do something to prove you're sorry.
You know, it's not just you, oh, now you've been a bitch to me for three years and now you're going to be nice to me for five minutes and I'm going to forget it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
I agree.
Okay.
So we're going to go back to, sorry, this got a little too off the rails, but all right, we're going to do Jackson.
Hey, Jackson, welcome to the show.
What are it?
What do you think of the topic?
Should Christians forgive pure evil?
Well, my short answer is yes.
Basically, one point I wanted to make, I've been listening to this show, is that the word forgive is one of those words that has different meanings to different people.
I would even argue the Bible itself uses the word slightly differently depending on the context.
And I think that was why there was some of the conflict with various verses before in that discussion.
I won't rehash that whole thing.
But, you know, I remember, or I guess before I go into that story, I'll go into what I think, what I mean by forgive.
What I mean by forgive is that you do not wish ill upon the person.
I would say wishing the person does not receive a consequence or sorry.
But like, like if I wish somebody gets electrocuted to death because they killed somebody.
Well, here's what I would say.
Isn't that kind of ill?
You know what I mean?
Sorry, bro.
You could look at it that way, but I also think that having a consequence does someone good too, depending on what the consequence is, right?
Like the reason you discipline a child is for their own good, right?
If you, it's not pleasant for the child, but if you discipline the child, it's for their own good.
Now, when it comes to something like life termination of somebody, that would be more for the good of society, right?
To get rid of that evil person.
So therefore, I still think that depending on your specific motives, you could still wish somebody gets the death penalty without it being holding a grudge in an un-Christian way.
I think it just matters sort of where your heart is.
I think that if it's to gratify your flesh and see the person suffer, that's where I would say personally as a Christian, I think that's wrong.
But if it's, you know, for the safety of others and so that justice is served, I think that's completely different.
Cool.
Well, I appreciate the input.
Thanks for calling in.
No problem.
All right, we're going to try to get through these next ones.
I don't want to go.
All right, let's see.
We're going to have Nate next.
Nate, thanks for calling in.
Should Christians forgive pure evil?
Let me know what you think.
Hey, what's up, Pearl?
Can you hear me?
I can hear you.
Go ahead.
Yep, go ahead.
Cool.
So, Pearl, we have something in common.
You said you went to Catholic school, right?
Yep.
All right.
So I know we've both read Dante.
We've both read Dante.
Is that right?
A long time ago.
I don't remember it at all.
Okay.
So, okay.
Should Christians forgive pure evil?
So absolutely, they should.
And here's why.
So in book two of Dante's Inferno, Francisca de Romini was dedicated to being a nun and then kidnapped and forced to marry the evil Giancato Maltesta.
And Francesca in her, in the situation she was in, fell in love with Paolo, Giancato's brother.
And they had a steamy, hot, sex-fueled affair.
And when Giancato found out, he judged them, he judged them with a violent death, and they ended up in the second circle of hell together, but still in hell.
And so, as a former Catholic, so I think this is a secular Catholic opinion.
You know, there's always going to be a religious nutjob who thinks that a woman having an affair or somebody stopping, you know, slamming on their brakes in front of them is a form of pure evil.
And for me, I'm the one who's the worst one.
Oh, I hated that one.
Sorry, I'm just, I'm agreeing with you.
What they say, well, all sin is the same.
I'm like, bitch.
Go on, go ahead.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so Francesca's, Francesca and Paolo's punishment was actually this, they were being swirled around in the wind forever.
And so while they were together in life, which is, in my opinion, it's pretty sick, you know, probably a lot of room to play in there.
You know, in hell, they were together, but could never be that close to one another.
Cool.
Well, did you?
But yeah, but yeah, yeah.
And so to me, it's actually a really important opinion to get all the way out too, right?
So, you know, I don't just think that like it should be obvious that people having an affair isn't a form of pure evil.
You can't kill someone for this.
And you should be, if you want to consider forgiveness, that's great, but you shouldn't be talking about pure evil.
I also think that people that commit horrific crimes should be, you know, we should always be a little skeptical of the judge, jury, and executioner, you know, while still having faith in something.
But yeah, that was my sort of main thing is that, you know, I don't want crazy people telling me what sin is.
Okay, cool.
Thanks for calling in, calling anytime.
All right.
Are we going to talk about Erica?
Oh.
My bad.
Well, I did that.
Did I remove myself too?
I don't know.
I'm still on, right?
That was, I didn't mean to do that, but.
Okay.
All right.
Well, we move on.
All right.
I'm trying to get through these because I'm trying to do a two-hour show today.
Samuel, welcome to the show.
Do should Christians forgive pure evil?
Hey, is my audio good?
I can hear you.
Okay, perfect.
I'm trying to get through a few callers, so just try to keep it concise, okay?
Go ahead.
Yeah, yeah, I will.
Thank you very much for giving me this chance.
So my answer to that is yes.
I agree with what I think Jackson was saying.
I remember.
So we are called to forgive.
That's a commandment for us Christians, just to reflect the character of God who forgave us all.
Now, something that we need to understand is when individual goes and breaks the law to the extent that Tyler did, you're going to face consequences.
And it's not up to Erica to pursue charges.
It's not up to any relative, any living relative of Charlie to pursue any type of charge.
Now it's up to the prosecution, which is representing the state, which is what the state is for, is to guarantee that our rights are there.
And that involves pursuing criminal charges against Tyler.
So Erica's got nothing to do with that.
That's just an actual fact.
And yes, we need to forgive no matter what.
It's not easy.
And forgiveness without the person repenting for us or to us, It's for us, we forgive, so we hold no grudge, we hold no hatred, and we get peace for ourselves.
Now, there's another type of forgiveness, which is a gift that comes from the mercy of God, which is to essentially wash all of our sins.
That's what God's forgiveness gives.
That's not up to me.
I cannot forgive or wash any sin, yeah, but God does.
So, if I were to smack you on the face or the other way out, if you were to smack me on the face, it would be sinning against me.
I need, I am commanded to forgive you, no matter what.
There's no option for me if I am a true Christian.
He's not in it.
Okay, thank you for calling in.
Colin, anytime, okay?
Sure, yeah, I don't see him in the waiting room, but it's okay.
We're almost done anyway.
I'll do one more.
Um, I'll do James.
That's my last one tonight.
All right, James.
Um, I don't see him as the choice.
Um, well, I don't hear anything.
James, five, four, three, two.
All right, guys, you got to get the Zoom to work.
Um, I'm gonna do this guy.
I feel like I've oh, now Doug MP is back.
All right, Paulo, your last caller of the night.
Um, so should Christians forgive pure evil?
What are your thoughts?
Yes, I think Christians should forgive pure evil.
However, uh, as I was watching the show, I saw that some people talked about forgiving or forgetting, repenting, or accepting, and all that.
And I think a lot of it comes down to semantics.
Do you recall that guy, Jesse Lee Peterson?
You've been to his show like forever ago.
I love him.
Do you recall that?
I love Jesse.
That's my guy.
He's awesome.
Go ahead.
There you go.
So he has a measuring stick for that.
For example, he says, you got to forgive your mom.
Why?
Because you're angry.
So he believes that you are angry because you did not forgive your mother.
So that's kind of a method that he's got.
So let's say that if you're angry and you're emotional and you are depressed for six months, some years, you might as well forgive.
You might as well look for therapy.
You might as well do something about it.
Does it make sense?
Doug MPA, what do you think of that?
Like, do you think if you don't forgive, the anger really harms you?
Because then you're harboring onto the resentment.
Well, so, or something else, like depression, my creepy.
Well, okay, you're talking about pure evil.
Now, you're talking about maybe simple grievances and stuff like that, but I think that there are scenarios where pure evil should not be forgiven.
If someone comes into your house and takes out, okay, okay, how about this?
A drunk driver is driving drunk and takes out two of your family members.
You don't have to forgive them at all ever.
Now, you know, if you had a bad relationship with your mother and she chooses to try to chase that relationship, you can forgive that.
But there are just levels to this.
Understand?
There are people that are completely irresponsible that cause consequences that harm other people.
You shouldn't be forgiven.
No.
Yeah.
Good point.
And I have no problem with that.
You know, one, and I agree with you guys on that.
My point is, it seems that a lot of this Christian faith, I consider myself a Christian, but it's like, yeah, do nothing about it.
Just relax, accept, and do nothing about it.
And I don't believe that to be human.
I don't think that's a human condition.
Yeah, I don't know.
Sometimes anger is like useful.
Like, you know, it's like after a divorce, you're going to be on the treadmill.
Run it.
You're going to make a million dollars this year because you're pissed like that bitch, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it seems that what really matters is what you do about it.
Yeah.
Instead of, so you might call it forgiveness, acceptance, or something like that.
And just to comment briefly on Erica, because I was watching the very beginning of your show because I wanted to hear your comments on it.
Okay.
I know it's tragic and terrible and all that, but I'm just an idiot with an opinion.
It seems performative.
It looks like she does not look like I was looking through like what she did, not what she felt.
We were talking about like forgiveness.
What she did 48 hours after her husband passed away.
And it was a bunch of events, taking pictures, Instagram posts, a powerful speech, events, taking the role as a CEO.
My God, when I lost a loved one, people are different.
I understand that.
But when I lost a loved one, within 24 hours, I didn't feel like taking a bunch of roles, going to a bunch of events and doing a bunch of powerful speeches.
Do you think you would feel like that, Pearl, if a loved one came to mind?
I wouldn't.
And I think that's why it's weird.
Her actions don't seem like someone who's mourning.
They don't seem like it.
Maybe people mourn in different ways.
I don't know.
I don't know her personally.
But it also came off as performative to me.
Like, I was looking at her eyes.
I didn't see any tears come out.
Like, I swear to God, when she did the crying, I zoomed in the first time I saw it to see if I saw any tears.
I didn't see any.
Right.
Yeah.
I cannot think of anything more foreign to a grieving widow than to be taken on a stage talking to thousands of people live.
It doesn't sound very normal.
It is not normal.
Yeah.
You would think her team and even like counselors and psychology experts would tell her to take a little time because now is a time where she could say something that, you know, that she might not want to say if she doesn't realize it until later.
I mean, she is reading off of a script.
Don't get me wrong.
But still, you know, you don't want to get in front of a camera when you're experiencing this kind of trauma, though.
And not only get in front of a camera, like a call to action, you know, like get on a website, sign up, do this, be a part of this.
You can do it.
It's like, oh my God, really?
Yeah.
You're a grieving widow.
Yeah.
And the whole thing was barely about him.
I mean, I listened to it through and through.
It was very little about who he was as a person.
You know, it was just about, you know, join Christianity.
Men be good husbands.
This is, I made, I made the home amazing.
This was all the things that I did for him or that I did that were awesome.
You know, he wouldn't be where he, he may have died.
He did great things, but if it wasn't for me, none of this would have ever happened.
Right.
So, yeah.
So you don't have to be so sorry, Pearl.
I watch at the beginning of the show say, oh, am I to.
Well, I think communication is a lot about what the other person understands.
And it comes across inauthentic.
It doesn't come across like, uh, I mean, I'm the consumer of her content, right?
So for me, her communication does not sound, I mean, I don't think she should have that kind of communication.
What do I know?
I'm not inside of her.
I don't know about her feelings, but I'm just judging from the outside as a content consumer.
Yeah.
Awesome.
That was, I think that was my favorite call tonight.
So thanks for calling in.
Call in anytime, all right?
All right.
Thank you, Pearl.
You have a good evening.
All right.
Well, Doug MPA, you got any final thoughts?
Forgive the sinner doesn't mean we cannot take measures like life in prison, protect the independence.
The innocent, still an option, but we all want to be saved.
See, I mean, I don't know.
I think that's two different things.
I think there's not having anger and forgiveness.
To me, the forgiving Manko made the most sense with what it means, but it seems like the semantics everyone's arguing about.
Doug MPA, you got any final thoughts?
I know, I hear Ellie.
I hear Ellie barking.
Sorry.
Yeah.
It's okay.
My final thoughts are, guys, you don't have.
I'll use my stance a little bit on this call and say if someone makes a heartfelt apology, you can forgive them.
If there's some kind of penance or whatever, I'm not religious, so I'm keeping it a general concept, but I think people forgive way too easily.
You don't have to forgive anything.
You really don't.
You don't have to.
It doesn't have to be a negative thing if you don't want it to be.
This whole, oh, the person will consume you.
Thinking about the person will you can hate somebody long enough to just forget all about them.
Yeah.
That's what I do.
Yeah.
So once again, like I said before, it's like this whole automatically associating men and anger with physical violence.
That's not true.
Anger can be a great motivator.
And, you know, hating someone for what they did to you can be a great motivator.
Yeah.
That's why some of the, you know, some of the greatest people that have done the greatest things were bullied as a child.
You know?
So, yeah.
Don't forgive so easy, guys, and hold grudges.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, you're hilarious.
Okay, guys.
Thank you.
Thanks for watching.
Make sure you like the video on your way out and subscribe.
And we're probably, I think this is going to be the last show on this.