Tilly MiddleHurst, a Cambridge debater, clashes with the host over marriage’s role in gender dynamics, dismissing "Red Pill" claims that men face systemic financial risks while women retain autonomy. She counters with legal protections for women but acknowledges marriage’s outdated aspects, like virginity norms. The debate extends to weight gain post-marriage, paternity fraud, and violence stats—75% of child abuse by women, per the host—while critiquing feminist conflation of gender struggles. Ultimately, they expose deep divides: one sees systemic male disadvantage, the other rejects broad generalizations, leaving marriage’s value and gender equity unresolved. [Automatically generated summary]
Most answered very quickly, no, because men are useless.
This headline from The Hill, it caught my eye.
Most young men are single.
Most young women are not.
Young men have fallen faster than any demographic in America over the last 40 years.
It's a different world now.
Like, we don't need men the way that they used to.
The future is female.
Men and women are drifting further apart, and society is crumbling because of it.
A fascinating debate has broken out about the value of marriage.
You've kind of got the TradCon versus Red Pill thing.
This men's rights crowd that sometimes just goes too far the other way.
Oh, you need to stop acting like grown boys and infants and actually become men.
Marriage is a bond and it's a sacred bond.
It's a machine designed to extract resources from you.
Now many of the red-pilled have taken the position that it's bad for men to get married.
Hannah Pearl Davis or just pearly things.
One of the most controversial faces in all of the internet.
She goes on to say that marriage is a terrible deal for men.
Because if me and you were in a business contract, you would never sign a contract where I am paid to leave.
Gee, what could go wrong there?
74% or something of divorces are initiated by women.
Men have everything to lose, primarily their own children.
Men get killed by the courts and by divorce laws.
I had no idea that courts of family law were courts of equity, not courts of law.
Because in family court, you don't need evidence to accuse someone of abuse.
You need no evidence.
When you guys say get married young, a lot of these men don't know what they're signing up for, and you're not going to be there when their entire life falls apart.
I interview them on the other side.
I didn't meet my son until he was 15 months old.
How much did you spend trying to get him back?
The legal fees alone was about $200,000.
Before you know it, you're homeless.
You're literally just thrown out into the street.
We absolutely reinforce bad behavior from women.
Wives are taught to leave their husbands, and then daughters grow up without their fathers.
Family is the foundation of a society.
Every problem in society comes from single mother homes.
A lot of women will just chase this negative rabbit hole of happiness, endless happiness.
Feminism's biggest failures is it lies to women.
We tell women to date as many guys as possible.
We tell them to put off family into marriage.
You are allowed to leave your perfect husband.
You are allowed to end a relationship with a really great boyfriend.
Oh, freeze your ex, have an abortion.
What?
You're evil.
I don't think there's anything else in life that we actually ever go into preparing to fail.
Like if you have the mentality of this is going to go wrong and be pessimistic, naturally the outcome is going to be that it's going to fail anyway.
It's self-sabotage.
And that's the thing.
Like women are so willing to leave marriages because they're not happy.
This is not about happiness.
The most important thing is the children.
And the problem is we have a modern society where it's me, me, me, my feelings, leave when I feel like it, instead of doing what's best for the kids.
This myth that we live in an age of male privilege.
Where's my male privilege?
They think, well, men have all the rights.
They have all the power.
Privilege, patriarchal system that we have.
Why doesn't our society care about men's rights?
I have no friends, no wife, and no social act.
Men are alone in this situation.
Men are homeless.
Men are thinking about eating guns.
I've seen so many men on the brink of suicide and they didn't do anything wrong.
How are you equal if the men are the ones that have to fight and die to defend the country?
The men are the ones that build and maintain all the infrastructure.
Women are helplessly dependent upon men.
The so-called deaths of despair from suicide, overdose, or alcohol, three times higher among men than among women.
Culture is telling men, you are no good.
You got to get your act together.
I think men have failed themselves.
What kind of a man are you?
What kind of a woman are you going to attract?
If men are in trouble, so are women.
Everybody knows this is a huge problem, but nobody wants to admit it.
Every single woman at the table said they wanted a man.
500K, 500, 500K, 300K, 200K.
Am I crazy?
Everything is really set up against you to fail as a man.
If men make less than women, women don't want to marry them.
So, you know who wants more economically and emotionally viable men?
Women.
I don't want to be an independent woman anymore.
I don't want to be a strong, independent woman.
I'm over it.
When is it going to be my turn?
Where are we meeting the men that don't?
I can't keep having these same conversations.
The only simp here is you, Pearl.
You sent for women.
I think you said for women.
She's a provocateur.
She says stupid stuff, but Pearl is right about this.
It's already happening.
It's just not out in the open yet.
Now it's just hookup culture is going to be our fairy tale ending because men don't want a wife and women can't find a husband.
The future, if everybody follows your path, is there is no future.
We go into population decline and our economy goes into decline.
Civilization will crumble.
The American story does not end well.
This is an existential crisis failing young men.
What's up, guys?
Welcome to another episode of Pearl Daily here on the Audacity Network.
Thank you guys so much.
You could bring your time, attention, and resources anywhere.
And for some reason, you guys choose to tune into this show.
So, and for that, I'm eternally grateful.
Thank you guys so much.
If you want to donate to the divorce documentary, the link is in the description.
We have a GoFundMe.
We want to raise $100,000 to put on this documentary.
I've been demonetized, kicked off of TikTok eight times, Instagram three times.
They really don't want this to come out, I'm telling you.
But our plan would be, and we just hit $36,605.
Thank you guys.
All right, we got an Ian donation, Robert donation, Whitney donation.
I always use first names just in case you guys want to be anonymous.
Sam, thank you for the donation.
Alexander, thank you for the donation.
We had about $100 yesterday, so I do appreciate it.
Thank you guys so much.
Almost 500 donations total.
All right, so a couple of updates.
If you guys want to go to theaudacitynetwork.com, we are going to be doing another live stream on our Audacity Academy series tomorrow.
So last week I did some thumbnails and I kind of talked about thumbnails I hate and thumbnails I love.
So if you want to learn, it's pearlinvite.com.
The other thing I was going to tell you guys is that all super chats, I'm having a little bit of a tech issue.
I'm getting a new laptop tomorrow.
When that is fixed, things will be better.
But be a little patient with the super chats, especially when we're going doing a back and forth and we have a guest on.
It may wait till the end of the back and forth, the debate.
I don't really want to, you know.
The other thing is, I ask that you guys are respectful.
You know, I know you guys love roasting the guests, but sometimes it makes it a little bit awkward for me.
And I don't, if you have an attacker argument, not her, you know what I mean?
It's just, please, we want people to come back and enjoy this.
So, okay, so today I invited Tilly on to have a conversation.
Okay, so this is a girl who is a self-proclaimed feminist.
She went to Cambridge and she debated Charlie Kirk.
So I thought it'd be fun.
We could have her on.
We're going to react to a little bit of her debate with Charlie Kirk.
So we're going to watch this and then we're going to bring her up.
So feel free to like the video, subscribe.
But yeah, you know, especially when I disagree with them, if she, and you know what?
And I'll say it like this: if the girl, if they're disrespectful first, fine, it's gloves off.
But we're gonna we try to go into these things in like good faith, you know?
And so if they're not being rude, there's no reason for you guys to roast.
Do you know what I mean?
Like we can, I know, I know, I know, I know.
All right, we're gonna watch.
Oh, I'm a feminist.
My question is about the role of women, though.
What should women's role in public and private life look like, and what are the material benefits of that?
Well, thank you for that.
Can I take it?
I don't even want to.
I just don't even like, I don't like that question.
Should I'm not the pr I don't get to pick.
Like, what?
Is this like make a wish?
Do you know what I mean?
It's like, should.
I can't make, you know, it's what is it now?
Detour, but anyways, like the video.
I'd like to get over, it would be cool to get a thousand like our viewers for when she gets on.
So, you know, like it.
Let's get this amped up, people.
You both agree on what a woman is?
Yes.
An adult human female.
It's a biological state of being that is also socially experienced.
Can I please elucidate just one example of that social experience?
Yeah, I was going to answer your question, but sure, go ahead.
Yeah, okay, okay.
So let's say you're a member of a tribe and that in that tribe, you have the biological female anatomy.
And in order to become a woman in that tribe, you have to also get a tattoo.
That's a social experience that's mapped onto biological reality.
So can a woman have a prostate?
Can a woman have a prostate?
Biologically speaking, a woman is an adult human female that has a biological reality, but it's also social experience, right?
So I don't just.
It's super easy.
Like, can a woman have a prostate?
So as per my definition of woman, I would say that people who have a prostate are biologically male, but they can sometimes be socially treated as women.
Okay, got it.
So, so, so, so, women.
So, they can, like, pretend to be okay.
All right.
A prostates, got it.
Okay.
Um, all right, Doug MPA keeps putting in the chat, she has her phone, it doesn't count.
Okay, all right, all right.
So, you're a feminist that actually isn't just fighting for women, you're also fighting for men.
So, yes, yeah, men also experience harms from uh patriarchy, but I argue-they're just make sure.
Yeah, sure, go ahead.
So, men also experience harm from patriarchal domination, but I would argue that those harms I like that she's got a American flag: USA, USA, even the Brits love us, you know what I mean from that system of domination itself.
In the same way, for example, this isn't a threat, but if I reached across and punched you in the face, then my hand might hurt, right?
So, are we understanding that there are like patterns of power?
So, I would also fight for the rights of men as a feminist, just as I would fight for the rights of women.
Sure.
You think women are happier than they were 40 years ago?
I think I would have a few responses to that.
I think that women report more stress and dissatisfaction today because not because they have more rights or because of feminism, but because they're under dual pressure to both excel professionally and also because of the domestic labor in homes that is structured around outdated expectations.
So, for example, studies like the OECD's Better Life Index show that women's life expectancy, education levels, professional achievements have risen in countries with higher gender inequality.
So, I would argue that what you're calling unhappiness is actually visibility because now we hear women expressing dissatisfaction, whereas in the 50s, we prescribed them valium and we lobotomize.
Yeah, so I actually did agree with her here.
Women are just complainers, okay?
Women love to complain, they love it.
So, I don't really, I don't think women, I how do I put it?
Women in the 50s probably also complained, but they didn't have social media.
Now we can hear it.
Thank God, you know what I mean?
It's like, but I'm not going to, I don't, I don't like studies on happiness anyway because it's very subjective.
So it's just not.
Yeah, so it's just not.
I think you're a happy person or you're not.
The happy people, they just tend to get married.
But I don't ascribe, you know, one to the other.
That's really rich.
I didn't know women not to complain 50 years ago.
That's funny.
So hold on a second.
I know we love complaining.
That's the comm Suicide rates going up more for women.
I think that encourages.
Women are killing themselves more.
Why is that?
I think that even if both men and women have become unhappier, men's suicide rates have risen as well, and that's also been exponential.
Can you at least concede that feminism offers only one potential explanation?
There could be also other explanations.
Of course, obviously, but feminism is the glaring thing in front of us where we have fertility rates down, we have marriage rates down, we have unhappiness up.
Doug, blah, blah, blah.
Read off my phone.
I get it.
You don't like the phones.
All right.
All right.
I get it.
It's something in the 1960s out of the universities of Brady Fredan and Gloria Steinem and all these feminists that basically said you're trapped in a home, go get a job, freeze your eggs, take birth control, and all of a sudden women are way unhappier than they were 40 years ago.
And I just have to ask the question, why is that?
Is it working?
And maybe there are biological differences between men and women that we should respect.
And that deep down, a lot of women want to get married and have children.
Women do not want to get married and have children.
I think the abortion rates prove that.
So I don't know how tragic, I don't know how people still think that.
We should applaud it and we should support it and we should say it means nothing if you're going to go be a CEO of some shoe company or be some banker in London.
What matters if you raise children and you have something to pass down long after you're gone?
I think I would bring two points to that.
The first one is just really simple, which is that you can ascribe liberalism all you want as the cause of the unhappiness.
I would argue something else.
I would say that it's certain economic policy that has very little to do with the social acceptance of alternative lifestyles.
I would say that we can recognize that income inequality across a vast swathe of Western countries has increased, which causes all kinds of social ills.
A lack of social cohesion.
Housing price growth doesn't correspond with wage growth.
Monopolies increasingly become kind of emboldened to interfere with politics and monopolies don't prioritize social health either.
I think that those offer more compelling reasons for a decline in happiness than an increase in freedoms because just one more thing.
On an intuitive basis, generally speaking, people want more freedom, not less.
So if that's true, why is it, do you agree that the happiest women of the West are married with kids?
I don't.
Sorry.
I think the base is just on happiness with women.
We just love to complain.
So I think we'll go from like complaining to more complaining to just like complaining, you know?
I would have to look into it, but I think there are certain things.
Objectively, we know that, right?
The women with kids are not the ones tearing down statues, right?
They're the ones that actually have obligations.
Doesn't tearing down statues correspond to some kind of smiles per capita data set that I wasn't aware of.
Again, it's like, it's a little bit of a one-liner.
The happy and the grateful.
The happy and the grateful usually don't go.
Yeah, okay.
All right, you guys get the idea.
Is that enough?
Do we still need, are we, do we get an idea?
We can watch like one more minute.
On Wednesday.
I think I'm going to burn her up because in their spare time, of which we saw in our country, all throughout a single summer.
But as a side note, you would agree objectively, study after study, survey after survey, that the women of the West that are married and have children, especially a lot of children, are far happier than even the ones that earn more money correlated at the same age.
So I also don't think that happiness is a very good metric, and neither do you, because you think gay people shouldn't just pursue happiness by being gay.
They have other moralistic considerations to be making.
So I don't think smiles per capita is a particularly convincing way to measure whether or not we should encourage women to be autonomous.
I think we should maximize agency within a fair system that has reasonable parameters because it's expedient.
The economy.
Now she's reading off a script again.
All right, let's bring her up.
So I brought her up.
Let me see.
Let's bring her up.
Give me one second.
I have the topics up here.
Can you guys tell me when she's on the line?
The challenge is now.
I don't.
You'd have to see my tech issues.
It'll be changed soon, but you'll have to bear with me for the time being.
We've been in the lobby just yet to unmute.
I'll let you know when.
Okay.
All right.
Well, I guess, do you want to like text me?
We could just watch it till she comes up.
Is she ready or no?
Yeah, I'll shoot you a text.
I've been reaching out.
Okay.
All right.
Maybe she fell asleep or something.
It's early there.
I think she's in Britain, right?
It's late there.
Logical.
It's the moral thing because if we can't prove the material harms, we shouldn't discourage it.
And also, self-reported studies is a really flawed way to do psychology.
It's the week before my university exams right now, and I'm standing here explaining the basic methodology behind survey collection in sociology, which you don't even think is a real subject to Charlie Kirk.
If I took one of those surveys right now, I'd check extremely miserable, but so would a Palestinian child who's been taunted to miserines.
How are we going to measure?
I just don't.
Do you see what I mean?
This is she's kind of proven my point.
If she would check extremely miserable living in like the West, you know what I mean?
Like one of the best universities in the world.
And we still find a way to check miserable.
Do you know what I mean?
It's like it's our base.
All right.
We don't need to roast me on the technology, okay?
I saw someone, I saw somebody say in the chat, they're like, Pearl, your intro is too long.
Well, why don't you start a YouTube show and make your own intro?
Okay.
And you can have a short intro.
I'll give you that.
All right.
I love you guys.
I love you guys.
But sometimes I got to give it back to you.
You know what I mean?
No, I'm kind of making a joke.
No, I mean, but seriously, like, but hold on.
I mean, like, that's an important point, though, is that the women in the West have it the best in the world, and yet they're way unhappier than women of sub-Saharan Africa.
There's something femininely wrong here.
See, I don't think Charlie Kirk knows what he's talking about.
I don't know.
The women in Africa, they're kind of doing the same thing.
I was in London.
I interviewed a lot of the people from these countries.
A lot of the women in these countries, they're maybe 10 years behind, but the Westernization is coming.
Women of Sub-Saharan Africa have something that a lot of women in the West do not have.
The women in the West have cast and they have good jobs.
And the women of Sub-Saharan Africa, they have a belief in the divine and they have kids.
And maybe there's a biological underpinning.
I don't agree.
You know, I think an unhappy person is just going to be an unhappy person with the kid.
Because how many of you guys had crazy mothers?
Put a one in the chat if you had a crazy mother who was not happy and then she had you when she was still unhappy.
I do go live every night.
It's called putting in the work, okay?
Putting in the work.
That is keeping a lot of women from realizing their full potential.
And so without reading your phone and just like, you know, connecting.
I'm not really reading my phone.
Well, it's fine.
Sure.
Then you can answer.
That was a gaslight.
Tilly, what do you mean you're not reading your phone?
Fair enough.
Would you agree that it's a good thing that more women get married and have children in the West?
I would ask you: would you say that a sub-Saharan African woman who's experienced female genital mutilation and checks extremely happy in a survey, and I also would check extremely happy in a survey?
Who do you think would be objectively more happy even if they both check the same answer?
Okay, so I fully, if you want to talk about how Islam mistreats women, we could talk all day long.
Like, I'm all for that.
Me too.
Okay, good.
So we agree.
We actually agree.
My mother literally said to me, not mine, but in the chat, someone said, when I was a little kid, by the time you were born, we'd given up on raising kids.
Do you know what?
Like, mothers just like say things.
Do you know what I mean?
It's like, you're like, you're like, that doesn't really make okay.
How can we learn about creating a YouTube channel?
Go to theaudacitynetwork.com and sign up.
Tuesdays, we go live.
And so if you really, it's a great, it's a great spend because you can ask me directly about your channel.
So we go live every Tuesday after the show.
We'll on the show an hour early.
And then you can be like, oh my gosh, my channel isn't growing.
And I can tell you why your channel sucks in a nice way.
I'll be nice about it, but maybe you're not entertaining and you got to work on that.
Maybe it's your thumbnails.
Maybe it's your titles, but I can go through it with you.
And I can save you a lot of time.
So I would sign up.
We should shut off Muslim immigration to the UK, right?
We totally agree.
I think that all religious fundamentalism is bad.
And if you take that logic...
Oh my gosh, can we please shut off Muslim immigration to the UK?
I lived in the UK for three years.
And I, you know, nothing against the Muslims.
They were, they're nice people, but I did not living, I did not like living by you guys.
I didn't.
I did not.
I don't think I've heard Oxford is nice.
I didn't spend a lot of time there, but where I lived, it was not the night.
Yeah.
Don't allow evangelical Christians in the world.
Okay.
Hold on.
Hold on a second.
Come on.
That's funny.
Come on.
Can I tell you why my channel sucks?
I did, actually.
Last session, I ripped apart some of the thumbnails.
I'll even go through my videos and why I didn't, I don't think they performed, right?
So want me to wear a hijab every Tuesday.
Are you guys insane?
Sorry to cut you off.
Tilly is on.
Tilly, if you could just unmute, then we'll be good to go.
Everybody can hear me?
Okay.
I can hear you.
How's it going, Tilly?
It's going great.
Thank you for having me on.
It's really interesting that you agreed with some of the things I said in the debate, even though we're ideologically probably super opposed, right?
Well, I don't know.
I don't know too much about you other than this debate.
So you probably have seen some of my stuff, but I don't, I don't know how long you've been doing this.
But yeah, yeah, it's been a couple.
So you're at Oxford now?
What time is it there?
It's late, isn't it?
Oh, well, I go to Cambridge University.
But yeah, it's pretty late here.
It's 1.23 in the morning.
I have like this huge Pepsi to keep me awake.
Okay.
Well, I'm glad you made it.
Thanks so much for coming.
So what got you into debates?
Like, are you on the debate team there?
Or what's your background?
I started debating when I was about 17.
Okay.
And I ended up as a reserve for the national English team.
And from there, I've debated kind of mostly informally.
I haven't taken debate too seriously.
And then when I debated Charlie Kirk, I, yeah, I started taking it a little bit more, a little bit more seriously because that kind of blew up and I didn't expect it to blow up to that extent.
Okay, cool.
Are you going to start a channel now or no?
Trying to start a YouTube channel, but I mean, you'll know your guy had to talk me through how to even start this stream.
So it's going to be a slow process.
I'm terrible with tech.
Oh, I am too, actually.
So it's no big deal.
So can you give me a little overview of like your worldview?
So you're a feminist.
You believe in marriage.
don't believe in marriage, women are oppressed, men are can you give me like a spark note?
Do you mind or no?
A spark notes.
Yeah, sure.
I think when you sent me a few of those claims, I was quite interested because to me, they felt a little bit ambiguous.
So for example, when you sent me the claim of asking me whether or not I believed in marriage, I was thinking, well, sure, I believe that marriage makes men happier according to statistics.
As we both kind of agree, the self-reported studies are a little bit flawed.
But if we were to use self-reported studies, if we were to use that metric, marriage does make men happier.
I also think that marriage as a contract between like a virgin and a rich guy is a little bit antique, like antiquated.
In the same way that, for example, people getting married is a political alliance or out of obligation to people's family.
I think those things are a little bit antiquated as well.
I think that in terms of if we want to think about who's more oppressed, men or women, I think that it's potentially a slight distraction from other issues.
For example, I think that poor people are all oppressed.
And I would never want to minimize like men's issues when it comes to being poor.
But I think that overall, there are certain facts about being a woman that make it more difficult for us existing in society, I would say.
So I guess we can kind of delve deeper into it.
I didn't necessarily prepare like the summary of my worldview, but I think.
That's all right.
I mean, I'm just trying to have a conversation with you.
This isn't like a gotcha type thing.
I'm just trying to have a conversation.
So it kind of would help me to understand your worldview a little bit.
When you come to conclusions about what you believe, do you go to studies first or what you see in the world?
What comes first?
I mean, that's actually a really good question.
I appreciate that question.
I think that it's silly to rely solely on either metric.
If I solely said, well, based on my personal experiences, I believe this thing, then I would have all kinds of incorrect beliefs, right?
Because I have personal experiences that don't match up with what lots of other people's personal experiences might be.
So I'm not going to solely rely on them, but at the same time, I'm not going to completely cast them aside.
Because, for example, as a woman who's experienced being a woman, I'm not going to completely cast aside my anecdotal experiences there.
At the same time, you know, I also think that studies are really important, but it depends who's conducted the study.
That's the methodology behind the study.
I mean, I'm a studies fan.
I'm a bit of a nerd about that.
I mean, part of my political science degree concerns like methodology surrounding studies.
So.
Okay.
So what comes first?
If the study conflicts with your personal experience, what do you pick?
I think I'm always open to being wrong.
I think that the most important thing is that you can falsify any claim.
Yeah.
Okay.
So.
Okay.
Because me personally, I go with what I can see in the world first.
I do like studies, but I think the longer you're in this industry, you see a lot of people funding them have agendas.
Would you agree with that?
To some extent, yeah.
Okay.
I think, for example, you have think tanks.
I mean, organizations like Turning Point USA that want to promote traditional values or disseminate certain conservative ideas across college campuses.
When they come out with a study about how actually the evils of about like the evils of birth control, I might take a little pause and question it there in the same way as if you have this super liberal institution that says something about how some people are like ultra perfect and ultra happy like all the time and that feminism can do no wrong and that all women are like saints.
Obviously, I'm going to call that into question, but I think that's a little bit less.
I think that's a little bit less likely, but I'm sure that you might disagree with that.
Okay.
So why don't we tackle marriage first?
And we can kind of go back and forth about where we agree, where we disagree.
And then cool.
Okay.
So you believe in marriage or you don't believe in marriage?
Can I just qualify that question and ask what you mean?
I don't want to pull a Jordan Peterson, but like, what do you mean by that?
What do you think is the purpose of marriage?
Good question.
I think the purpose of marriage is some kind of partnership where both of you are a team.
And in the process of becoming a team, you have certain legal protections enforced.
Okay, cool.
What do you think a woman gets out of marriage?
I think, I mean, it kind of depends on all kinds of factors, right?
Like, I believe that marriage is something that is like super intra-subjective because it concerns relationships.
Like, we can make broad sweeping statements about what it means for a woman to be married, what it means for a man to be married.
I think women can get quite a lot from marriage.
I think, generally speaking, though, men tend to get a bit more.
And the evidence that I have for that is that married men, according to the CDC, they live about 8% to 17% longer than unmarried men.
And also, wait, wait, wait, wait.
And you attribute that to marriage.
I think there are probably confounding factors like financial stability that comes from marriage.
But it's also true that women work together and have a relationship.
Let's go with what you see in the real world.
Like you're in college, you see your friends who they go for, right?
Who they're interested in maybe marrying someday, dating, they're selecting for romantic relationships.
Wouldn't you say that they select guys that are in shape?
Like just in general?
Like the in-shape guy is going to get more dates than the 300-pound guy.
Do you think a 300-pound woman is probably going to have the same experience on the dating market?
I agree.
But so for me, I wouldn't really attribute men living longer to marriage.
I think fit men are chosen.
And I think a lot of times like the conservative, and I'm actually going to go at the conservatives.
I think a lot of times they're trying to sell marriage.
And so they attribute everything good about a person to marriage.
Would you agree, disagree?
What do you mean by that?
So like they'll say that someone's happier because they're married, but happy people are selected for marriage.
Who wants to marry a downer, right?
They'll say that people live longer because they're married.
And I think it's because they're fit.
People pick fit people.
That makes more sense to me.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't think we can necessarily measure this in the way that you think, just because intuitively, when I think about this, when I think about the United States, correct me if I'm wrong, but the obesity rate is extremely high in the United States.
I think like one in three people are obese.
So I don't think that would imply to me that most obese people are not being chosen.
But that would also mean that like one-third of obese people, one-third of people in the United States are like not getting married on the basis of the fact that they're fat.
Well, the thing is, women pull the fat plug after they get married.
So on average, women like gain weight.
Oh, hell yeah.
I mean, women, on average, women gain 25 pounds in the first five years of marriage, which maybe at one point.
On average, women get pregnant.
And the average weight that you gain when you're pregnant is like 22 pounds or something like that.
Yeah, but I just reject that you have to.
I mean, my grandma had nine kids.
You got to gain weight when you're pregnant.
Well, you can lose it after.
So, yeah.
So, I mean, my mom ran a marathon six months pregnant.
She had like 10 of us.
It also kind of depends on how your pregnancy goes, right?
Like, I know people who've had emergency C-sections where they've been in this emergency situation where their child might pass away.
So, what's had to happen is they've been put under anesthetic and that baby has been removed from them very quickly.
There's not that much room for precision in the surgical process, that kind of thing.
And the recovery process is much longer.
So, it would take like more like three years for that woman to lose weight after people.
I just don't like excuses.
I don't like it's just what happens, right?
Like if women get an emergency surgery where they're cut open across their entire stomach area, then the chances are it's going to take longer for them to gain weight than a woman who's had a natural birth with no consequences.
I don't think there's any nuance.
I think if you got to eat less and that's it.
And I used to be pretty overweight, so I can say that firsthand.
Yeah.
But have you been pregnant?
No, but I know people that have and they got thin after.
I know people with really bad pregnancies.
So I just, I don't think it's an excuse.
But my point is that it takes longer for people to lose baby weight if they have a traumatic birth.
And that's not an excuse.
That's just a fact.
Well, it can, yeah, but I would still say that's an excuse.
Okay, why?
Because there's people that don't.
Like there's people that let things like that make excuses and there's people that don't and just lose the weight and eat less.
Well, it's not an excuse if some people aren't necessarily doing that thing.
I think that's not what qualifies an excuse.
An excuse is like an unrelated reason as to why something happens.
I think there's a direct correlation or a causal link between women taking longer to like gain weight, to lose weight, sorry, after having a traumatic birth.
I think that's probably, I would just say put the donut down.
That's it.
So, okay.
Are you like seeing that this sounds insane?
Not really.
That you eat less and lose weight?
No.
No, obviously to lose weight, you eat less.
But also, you also have to move more.
And it's really difficult to move more if you've had an emergency C-section and you're bedbound for like six to seven months.
1,200 calories, you'll still lose weight.
Most people.
Okay, but I want to say that.
I want to go back to, because we're just going to go back and forth.
You think it's okay for them to stay fat?
I don't.
So it's fine.
All right.
So what do women get out of marriage?
Well, I don't, if you answered the question, I can't remember what you said.
So forgive me if you did.
If you can maybe make in a few sentences, what do they get out of it?
I think that both men and women get benefits from marriage and there are not, well, we'll go into men's, but I just want, when I ask you a question about women, I want to stick to the women and then we can do men later.
I want Central Are you asking me in terms of benefits?
Do you mean legal protections, for example?
We could go legal protections.
Anything that you think they get out of marriage, it could be legal.
It could be emotional, whatever comes to your head.
Yeah, sure.
I mean, the first thing that I'll qualify is I don't think that marriage is necessarily be all and end all in terms of having a happy and fruitful family.
But I do think that women who get married, they do experience legal protections in society and that those legal protections are probably a good thing when it concerns children.
So for example, let's say two people just co-hab it.
Like a man and a woman are in a relationship and they have a child, but on paper, they're single.
What that means is that a custody battle is going to be a lot more difficult for them because they don't have the legal channels through which to navigate that.
And I think women are likely to suffer a little bit more in that regard, just insofar as like you might agree with me on a bioessentialist premise that women are more nurturing and have more of an attachment to their child.
So you can even go with that.
I actually don't agree, but we could actually talk about it later because I want to, I'll write down nurturing so I remember to go back if you want to talk about that.
Do you think women are naturally more nurturing than men?
Oh, hell no.
But we can go back to it later.
So let's start with legal protection.
It's super interesting to me.
Oh, super interesting.
But okay, well, let's start.
Legal protections.
Anything else do women get out of marriage?
I mean, I'm not like an ultra proponent of marriage.
I just think it's totally a bit of a value neutral thing.
And I think overall men are going to benefit a little bit more from marriage.
So how do men benefit from marriage?
Men tend to live longer.
And also, something like, I think there was this US survey, and like we say, self-reporting studies are flawed, all that kind of stuff.
But at the same time, more married men report being very happy with life compared to unmarried men.
So they're more likely to probably experience happiness in a marriage.
You can talk about correlation type of factors.
But at the same time, I think we can both agree that being in a long-term, stable relationship probably leads to the fact that you feel a little bit more happy about yourself and you feel a little bit more happy about the fact that you're working in a team and that you're collaborating with someone to build something really nice and beautiful, which is a wonderful relationship you have together.
So I mean, we can start there.
So you think men live longer and are happier because of being attached to a woman, essentially.
Isn't that good?
I wouldn't necessarily pin it on the fact that I wouldn't credit women for it.
I would credit partnership for it.
I don't think that I'm not that person who's going to say, it's all down to women when men are that happy.
I think there are loads more factors than just their relationships that make someone happy.
I would never deny that.
But what I would say is in a partnership, in a loving partnership, in a long-term partnership that is happy and mutual and reciprocal, where you share burdens like on an egalitarian basis, then you're probably going to be happy.
So maybe the question is, is it the case that marriage makes people happy or is it the case that good marriage makes people happy?
You know, I'm not one of those people who has particularly strong views about marriage.
That's fine.
I would say that happiness is a skill.
And I think that it's your own problem to make yourself happy.
And a lot of people go into a relationship and try to make it somebody else's problem.
I think that happy people are selected for relationships.
Have you ever met somebody that's super negative who wants to date them?
Right.
I mean, who wants to date?
I mean, I think it's also the case that like minds attract one another.
So often you're probably not going to have someone who's super happy all the time date someone who's a downer, but you do have people date each other who are both downers and kind of both have this horrible life together.
So my opinion would be that marriage is a bad deal for men because men are expected to give their emotional, their physical, their money to women and they get nothing in return.
When they do get married, they tend to get, I'm going to tell you my opinion, then you can go.
Okay.
And then they get a woman who nags.
On average, she gains 25 pounds.
She'll leave them half the time.
So I would say, why should a man get married?
And don't, if you give me an answer, please, I would prefer it not be something like happiness or living longer that we can't really prove came from the marriage itself.
Go ahead.
Sure.
I think it's an interesting claim because there are so many factors that kind of go outside of this.
Like, is it the issue that it's to do with getting married or is it that men are in a relationship with women?
Because what I'm hearing is you can probably ascribe all of the issues that you ascribe to being married to also just a man being in a long-term relationship with a woman.
So is it the marriage that qualifies it as something that's a miserable deal for men or is it a relationship with a woman?
And insofar as it's just a relationship with a woman, are you advocating that men stop being in relationships with them?
Okay.
So I don't tell men what to do.
But the challenge you get with marriage is women get the legal protections.
And what happens when women get legal protections is they just tend to not be too great with it.
They automatically then have the leverage in the relationship.
And there are some ways that men are really not protected legally.
Like, for example, in California, if a man signs the birth certificate and the kid, he finds out at the age of five that the kid isn't his, which is a really sad experience for a guy.
I know men that have gone through that where they thought the child was theirs and it wasn't, right?
He still has to pay child support on it.
I think that's bullshit, right?
I know men that are paying alimony to women that are destroying their lives actively.
And so the challenge is we're going to, I'm going to finish and then I'm going to let you go.
Okay.
So the challenge is when you get into marriage, you're getting the state involved.
And a lot of women, we can show the worst parts of ourselves when in romantic relationships.
I mean, we had, for example, pop songs talking about keying a guy's car.
You're younger than me, so you might not remember, but there was like a Carrie Underwood song where she's literally, yeah, yeah.
And so, you know, female spite is real.
And now you are allowing some feelings that people have.
How is that specific to women?
How is female spite?
How does that outweigh male spite?
For example, like men get active.
I cannot.
I can go into that later, but I'm going to finish this thought.
The difference is women can legally destroy men and men don't have that option generally, unless they get a specific type of judge.
But just usually they're not going to get custody of their kids.
They're not going to be able to put the woman on child support.
I would say men tend to be benevolent with women and women are not benevolent the other way around.
Go ahead.
So how many men are legally destroying women through things like alimony if you have to quantify it?
I don't know the exact number off the top of my head.
Last I checked, it was 10% of like less than 10% of alimony payments around were from women to men.
Okay.
So what the facts look like is that about 10 to 15% of any divorce in the U.S. involves any kind of spousal support.
So we're already talking about a minority of situations where spousal support, including alimony and child support.
Right.
But why would you put yourself at that risk?
I think is my point.
Like that's just an extra, even if it's 10%.
You know, if there is a pill that has had a 10% chance of killing me, I wouldn't take that pill.
Do you know what I mean?
I wouldn't have been like, I'm good.
Well, I could give you examples of, you know, men that have took the risk and it didn't really work out for them.
I mean, I'd rather not you give me examples.
I'd rather you quantify it in some capacity.
Well, it kind of sucks because I'm going to.
So sorry.
So I'll give you an example.
There is a guy in Texas who he had his kid legally like transitioned against his will.
Yeah, that's not quantifying it.
That's an individual example.
So you can quantify it.
So for example, if I said to you, this is a fact, 400,000 people in the U.S. receive alimony.
That's a quantity.
I actually have done the numbers on this.
Give me a second to pull it up.
It's in a different Google Doc, but I can pull it up.
But here, keep going and I'll listen to your thoughts.
Here's a case that I'll make.
It's quite a simple one.
400,000 people in the US are receiving alimony.
About 3% of those people are men.
That's a very low number.
40% of households have female breadwinners.
So that suggests that basically, you're right.
Hundreds of thousands of men can get alimony, but they don't receive it.
If I said to you, I don't have a six-pack.
And then you asked me, do you work out?
And I said, no.
Am I being oppressed?
Or do I just organically not have a six-pack?
What I would say is that rights in liberal societies have to be like asserted to be realized.
Courts are not mind readers.
Just like a job you don't apply for is not going to be offered to you.
A legal benefit you don't request is not going to be rewarded.
It's not going to be awarded to you.
And women are not asking for alimony and fighting for alimony.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, exactly.
But that goes back to my point that men are benevolent.
So when they get leveraged, they don't tend to ruin their wives' lives.
I think it's more so the case that they would feel emasculated by marriages, let's see, 50 stay married.
So 50 divorce, 15 of those divorces are obscenely malicious on the part of the wife towards the husband.
Child alienation, financial ruin, otherwise known as a punitive divorce.
27.5 of those is that the man pays woman a lot of money when she can support herself and get moderately frequent contact with the kids.
Still tough, but not malicious.
So that's out of 100 divorces.
That's going to be.
That's 100 divorces.
No, out of like, that's if there's 100 divorces, that's like the percentage.
So 15 out of 100 are going to be obscenely malicious, meaning, so the, meaning the guy can't see his kids or he's going to be fighting for custody.
27.5 is that the man.
Fighting for custody, it doesn't necessarily mean something's obscenely malicious.
There are all those kinds of reasons as to why someone might fight for custody, like have to fight for custody, or why someone might reasonably think that they don't want someone to have custody over their children.
Right.
But do you really have such a negative opinion of men that you think 15 out of 100 don't deserve to see their kids?
Is that your opinion of men?
Like that negative?
No, but I think that in family courts, when men do fight for custody, they win 60% of the time.
So where's the bias?
Okay, so the reason, do you know why that is?
Like why men don't fight for custody?
Because oftentimes there's not really enough evidence for them to make a compelling case.
In order to fight for custody, that's not why.
So that's custody.
But see, the challenge I'm getting is I know you're about to spew a bunch of stuff, and I know you don't know what you're talking.
And I don't mean this to be rude, but you just haven't done the interviews and you haven't like, I would really be surprised if you're not.
I don't think that doing an interview makes me more qualified.
Right.
But I can interview any random guy off the street.
I don't think it makes me more or less qualified.
I think what makes me qualified is the fact that I've done the research.
And that's such a small significant circumstance.
Would you say it's going to be a small significance?
How much does it cost for a guy to fight for custody of his kids?
Legal fees are expensive for everybody.
Okay.
It costs a lot for a woman to fight for custody, too.
Okay.
But when I'm going to start with the men and then we can talk about the women later, it's tough to have a conversation when you're trying to make a point and we're always going to bring it back to the men, like bring it back to the other gender, right?
But for everybody, what is the average?
You can't coexist in society.
You can't isolate a group of people.
What is the average amount that you said you did the research?
So do you know the answer to this question?
How much does it cost to fight for custody?
I don't know.
Okay.
So you haven't.
And that's fine.
I'm not, this isn't a good idea.
I've got the research.
Okay.
Legal career.
So it's about $30,000 a year or $30,000 to fight for custody.
And the challenge you get is a lot of these men that really look at only men.
A lot of these men.
A lot of these men are screwed because they're working average jobs.
And so a lot of the men that get screwed are blue-collar men.
And so these are guys that make $35,000, $45,000, $55,000 a year.
And a lot of times the women will empty the bank accounts first and they're kicked out of their house.
And so they don't have the money to fight for custody.
And a lot of lawyers will tell them not to even fight because the court process is going to take so many years and they just don't have the money.
What I would ask you is a really simple question, which is are legal fees solely exclusive to one gender?
No, but the challenge is you have women's shelters that have programs that pay for women.
So if you go, if you look up like men's shelters, I know they should have mutual custody over their children without.
So I do understand where you're coming from, right?
I understand that that's what you would think, that if a woman's going to an abused shelter, right, that something bad happened.
But the challenge is when men are abused, there's no shelters for them to go to.
It's like one.
Because men are much less likely to be abused by women.
That's actually not true.
That's not true.
So if you look at most abusive cases, they're beating each other.
It's just like we said earlier, people with similar traits, they kind of find each other, right?
You agree with that?
So most of the time when people necessarily mean that people who are abusers flock towards one another, people with similar traits might flock to one another, but people who want to beat the shit out of their partner are not.
It's oftentimes okay.
Well, so I spoke to the, so I, I, but here, here's what I know you don't know.
And so I spoke to Erin Pizzy.
She started.
She started.
Erin Pizzy, Erin Pizzy, Erin Pizzy, she founded the first men's shelter in London.
And she also ran a bunch of women's shelters.
She's an expert when it comes to domestic abuse.
And from her, from her, you could look her up, right?
From her mouth, most abusive people, they just find each other.
So from Karen's mouth.
Well, if it's from Karen's mouth, I mean, what are we to say?
So you know, let's know, the most abuse, most abuse, look it.
I'm allowing you to come on my show.
Look, I'm going to let you go, but you got to let me finish.
Okay.
Most abuse is mutual.
When it comes to one-sided abuse, women are more violent than men.
When it comes to abusing infants and the elderly, women, by and large, take that stat.
That's not true.
Stepfathers are the most likely person to be.
Right.
And which one, and the woman brought the stepdad into the life.
So when a man's abusing her kids.
Yes, that is your fault.
If you brought it up.
No, if not if it's, if it's, you are responsible for who you let into your kids' lives.
It is many women are irresponsible.
I'm saying that women never bear any responsibility for things.
What I'm saying is, you just told me that women overwhelmingly abuse men.
I just told you, well, statistically, that's not true.
Men overwhelmingly abuse women, including stepfathers abusing kids.
It's not the case that overwhelmingly it's mothers abusing kids.
Often the most likely predictive factor when it comes to abuse in childhood is having a step parent, specifically a sex father.
So sure you can say there's some onus on that person for bringing that person abusing them, right?
It's about 50-50 when it's just abuse.
But if it's just the biological parents, then it's overwhelmingly the mother because 75% of abuse towards children and the elderly are women.
You can look it up.
That is just not true.
Absolutely true.
How many men compared to women sexually abuse children?
How many men say that again?
How many men compared to women sexually abuse children?
Off the top of my head, I don't know.
It's more men than women.
Okay.
So it's again.
That's one example that I know off the top of my head without looking anything up and without making something up, without pulling it out of my ass, right?
Like that's something that I actually understand.
Okay.
So that's one way in which I'm disproving it though.
Okay.
Well, I don't think you disproved it, but I'll let the audience.
You told me that women overwhelmingly abuse their kids.
You said, well, men overwhelmingly sexually abuse their kids commit women.
So even in the best case scenario, this is an equalized situation.
Well, I mean, you could take murder, for example.
And I'm not talking about abortion.
I know the conservatives.
Like, if you look at infanticide, infanticide, it's overwhelmingly women.
The police don't even look for a guy because they're set that it's like, because it's almost always the mother.
Can I, am I allowed to look this up?
Yeah, go ahead.
Google infanticide.
Because I attained a bunch of criticism for ostensibly looking things up.
Oh, I don't mind if you look things up.
I like to have a conversation, not read an essay.
I know it's a different format, the other one, so I'm not holding it against you.
Okay, this is interesting.
So infanticide.
I'm pulling it up too.
Intentionally killing an infant.
Wait.
Mothers.
Man or woman.
So...
So this is like a best case scenario where we can make this such that it's an equal amount of abuse that is going on.
Because let's say we have a higher likelihood, for example, like a mother is more likely to be involved than a father.
So if a mother is in, like, if there's higher proximity of mothers around a kid more often, then obviously there's going to be a higher rate of like murder.
Because I don't think that men and women are intrinsically incredibly different enough.
I think there are psychos across the gender spectrum or across both genders, however you want to put it, right?
Yeah.
So they did look at that.
They did look at that.
And the challenge is, if that were true, as women spent over the last like 50 years, abuse, child abuse from women has gone up, not down, even though they've spent less time with their kids.
So if that were true, as they spent like less time, the abuse would go down, but it went up.
And I also, I don't really like giving an excuse for child abuse.
I mean, we can, but I don't know if you're saying that men and women can be psychopaths and hurt children.
I don't think we should qualify it by saying, like, oh, well, only like women are intensely more likely to be doing loads of child abuse towards children.
So, for example, if we take one metric, which is infanticide, which is a horrible thing and it's terrible that women are more likely to do it, if we take that one metric and say, therefore, this means that all of this other stuff is not true, then this is like intuitively a silly thing to do.
So this is like me saying, okay, well, actually, that infanticide thing doesn't matter at all because more men sexually abuse their kids.
Okay.
Well, I actually, so I'm going to tie this back into what we were talking about earlier: the nurturing, because it kind of goes together, right?
So I actually think women are far more violent than men.
And the only reason-motives are the violent crime, like over 90% of them.
That's right.
That's true, but I'll get to it.
So I think that if women had the strength that men did and could actually throw punches, I would be terrified.
I would be terrified.
That's true.
Because most of the violent crime that men commit is against other men, which means if women have the same expertise, they would be committing against other women on an equal playing field.
Women aren't murdering women, other women en masse.
So even though they have similar physical strength.
Okay.
So the reason I think this is a few reasons.
As I said earlier, the first way I view the world is through real life.
That's how I personally come to my conclusions first.
Meaning, if you say I have this study that says X, Y, and Z.
And you can say, Well, I heard from Gareth that this is fake.
Yeah, that's totally fine.
And I can understand why other people wouldn't accept that or whatever.
But it's not interesting.
Okay, well, scientifically speaking, like it doesn't abide by any of the things that you're doing.
I would say it's a good thing because then you can't be manipulated.
Because if someone can just throw a piece of manipulated by anecdotes, and it, well, not my experience, but it's totally fine.
You don't have to agree, but I'm telling you how I came to my conclusion.
Okay.
So sure.
Okay.
So the first way that I've come to this conclusion is because seeing how violent women were with me, women get upset.
And the only times I've done street interviews and I've interviewed men, I've even come in London in places that really weren't the best with controversial signs.
And women, you know, men will sit down and they will be calm, talk about their differences.
You know, I've had women threaten to attack me.
So that's the first way, but that's not the only way that I've come to this conclusion.
The second is I like to see who is more likely to murder the innocent.
Because when it comes to men, if you look at the murder stats, the majority of men in jail for murder, it was a bar fight gone wrong.
The majority of women in murder have killed the women who was rapidly meaning they accidentally accidentally killed somebody in jail for murder or in jail for an accidental money.
Meeting, meaning, so it's usually a fight gone wrong.
Meaning that they killed somebody with purpose.
It's totally wrong.
This is an innocent person.
It's completely different.
It's completely wrong.
However, I believe that if women had that capacity, it would be far worse.
And the reason I think that is because, well, what I look at is what they do with the innocent when it comes to children and the elderly.
When you look at abuse towards children and the elderly, it is 75% women.
Women are like 90% of children.
You're welcome to look it up.
I've seen the care sector.
So obviously they're in higher proximity around the elderly.
So it's more likely that you're going to have psychopaths who are women when more women around the elderly are there.
So I would reject that excuse.
I personally will not give an excuse for that.
This is just optimistics work.
You're totally willing.
You're totally likely to happen.
A random guy goes into a care facility and he's not a care worker for the elderly and he just decides he's going to fucking kill loads of innocent elderly ladies.
Or is it more likely that someone who works in the care sector and is also more than likely happens to be a woman?
Like he's going to target.
Have you ever seen have you ever seen?
Have you ever seen interviews with like pedos?
I hate saying that, but like, you know, I'm not going to, I'm going to just say, I'm going to say, I'm going to use a different word because we're on YouTube.
Oh my gosh, what word do you call?
I'm just going to say, I don't want to say, I'm going to say Edos, Edos, because I'm trying to, I don't want YouTube to get flagged.
Okay.
When you look at them, a lot of times they'll target certain industries because they have that inclination.
So if I were going to go down that route, I would say that those people targeted them because they wanted to do that.
But I don't think going back and forth about the reasoning is productive.
I just look at what they're doing.
And if I look at who's committing to a lot of people.
Okay, totally fine.
So see how like a reductive way of understanding the world is like not grounded in reality.
I totally get it.
I'm not going to listen to you when you present me statistics.
I'm not going to listen to you.
I totally get it.
You think your ways to an ego and he told me this?
Like it's actually silly.
Totally fine.
You think your way of looking at the world is better than mine?
Totally fine.
Like it's totally your way.
I think it's the correct way.
I have a worldview, which is a feminist view, and that is totally, but the way is to use like scientific statistics.
Recognition that anecdotes are very difficult to reconcile with one another.
I would say I would say that's a little egotistical, but that's fine.
I think your way is not egotistical.
That's fine.
This is like me.
I mean, men invented this scientific method according to you.
So I'm abiding by these Enlightenment rationality values.
Yeah.
Okay.
So let's talk about who's more oppressed, men or women.
You don't like that question.
Is there another way that I'll even give you the floor if you have a better way you want to say it or come at it?
Go ahead.
Okay.
Who's more oppressed?
I think I wouldn't necessarily take an issue with the claim necessarily.
I would just ask you to qualify what you mean in terms of oppression.
Okay.
When I think of oppression, I would say it's having the freedom without the responsibility that comes with it.
A way that I would say, a way that I would say that men are oppressed, and an example I gave is a woman having the freedom to put a kid, a kid on a guy, even on somebody else, and commit paternity fraud.
I would say the man that is because he, sorry, I'm trying to say this in a better way.
When a guy is a victim of paternity fraud, when he has a child and he has to pay for it, he has the responsibility of it, but it's not his kid.
And I would say that's a way that he's oppressed.
Go ahead.
Okay.
And do you think this outweighs ways that women have been oppressed as well?
Not just that example, but so what are some examples that would outweigh something that you predict I might say about women being oppressed?
Well, I don't know your stuff.
I'm just being honest.
I don't know.
I don't know what you would say because I don't know you that well, but go ahead.
I mean, why don't you just think of a typical feminist and what you believe they understand of oppression?
What is something that you would say outweighs all of that stuff in terms of what men, what the class that men adult in society?
Okay, I don't know, but why don't you just tell me what you think and we could talk about it?
Sure.
So I mean, I think that if we take individual examples of anything, I think you're like desperate to hold on to this idea of anecdotal evidence and what you see in the world being more important and more like quantifiable than anything that I present to you.
So I think it's a bit of a waste of time to go back and forth with you telling me that you know a guy and me telling you that like based on hundreds of thousands of guys, this is like overwhelmingly untrue.
So instead, I'll just like list off some reasons why I think that historically women are probably more oppressed.
Okay.
I would say, for example, if we talk about the US, until about 19, okay, hold on, 1974, a woman could be denied a credit card or a loan without a male co-signer, a father or a husband.
And then we have this act that comes in in 1974 that makes it illegal to discriminate based on your sex or your marital status.
So what that means is that a lot of living grandmothers, people who are alive today, were adults when women couldn't borrow their own money.
Is that oppression?
No, I don't think so.
Okay.
And why is that not oppression?
Because now we have women taking out credit cards and they don't pay it off.
Men take out credit cards and they don't pay it off.
Should we stop men from taking out credit cards?
80% of the world's debt is owned by women.
And 20% of the world's debt is owned by men.
Right.
But I don't like the, like, could we start with the women?
So women are more likely to shoulder certain burdens within like the home anyway, which probably increases likelihood that they're going to be the ones burdening, like shouldering the debt.
So for example, like until 1974, it's overwhelmingly the case that like men are signing off on this stuff.
And then after that, it's overwhelmingly the case that women and mothers are signing off on it because then this like responsibility is which they're doing.
So oftentimes in a partnership, both of them are carrying debt.
Both of them are carrying a similar amount of debt, but it's more often co-signed within the woman's name.
So it looks like women have more debt.
Yeah.
I would say if you look at the degrees that women are taking out, it's degrees that don't make any money overwhelmingly.
Are we talking about like college degrees?
Yes.
Partially.
Yes.
Master's degrees, it never ends.
Okay.
Yeah.
So you say that it's not oppression to tell women what kind of college degree they should do and what and to the extent to which they should be taking out for women.
I don't really care what women spend as long as they pay it back.
But the problem is now women aren't paying it back.
Like what women spend has to be.
That's really how debt works, right?
Like if you have debt, you're probably like struggling to pay it back.
No, because men actually do pay back their debt.
Like if you look at men versus women and student debt, men are actually making payments on their debt where women are defaulting.
So, again, the challenge is women will make a decision and a man always has to bail them out of it.
And that's.
So even if this is true, even if I grant you this, which I wouldn't necessarily grant it to you.
Do you think that the solution for that is to mandate or legally enforce some kind of thing where women have less freedoms in society on account of what you believe is bad behavior?
I would love to see education get unsubsidized in the United States.
I don't know if that's a gendered thing, but women are the ones that mostly do it.
I personally, that would be something I would love to see in my lifetime.
I actually think that education is a valuable job.
I'm very excited.
Sorry, my audio.
It's like, it's like the cord.
Sorry, could you say that one more time?
Do you think that teaching or educating is a valuable job?
Maybe at one point, but nowadays people graduate high school, they can't even read.
I'm from Chicago.
It's really bad here.
It's terrible here.
Do you think that without teachers, we'd probably have a little bit of a difficult time?
No.
You think that we don't need teachers?
I don't think the teacher, because education is subsidized in the United States, so it's very hard to fire bad teachers.
So I don't think that's the same thing.
I don't ask.
I don't think that teaching is some kind, it's like a valuable job to have inside.
So for example, if I taught your child to read, would you be like, oh, that's a good thing.
Tilly taught my child to read.
Or would you be like, fuck Tilly for teaching my kid to read?
Yeah.
Well, I think that women became teachers and screwed up the whole system.
Women have like, what?
Teaching used to be majority men.
In the United States in like the 1800s, it used to be men.
And over time, the education system just has gone downhill.
And now we literally, like in downtown Chicago, there's people that can't read and they graduate high school.
And teaching is like 80% of the time.
I would say it's mostly female teachers.
Yeah.
I would say that.
I can't.
Wait, hold on.
Not all.
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
I have to say this to stay monetized.
Not all women, not all women, not all, not all, not all.
Go ahead, sorry.
I do have to say that.
I'm trying to stay monetized.
Go ahead.
That's how much of a protected class women are.
I can't even make real generalizations about them without being without them cutting my pay.
That's how BS this is.
Go on.
Go ahead.
I think that you have a skewed understanding of what oppression means.
I think oppression means limiting people's choices to do things, even when you disagree with those choices.
Yeah, I don't mind if people make choices.
I don't care at all if women make choices.
But you do mind because you think women shouldn't be allowed to take out credit cards.
No, I think they should pay for their credit cards.
And if women actually had to pay back their debt, I don't think women.
So what happens in society when someone doesn't pay back their debt?
If they're a woman, do they get so good treatment?
Here, sort of.
There's whole industries like, right, there's a lot of bankruptcy lawyers in Chicago that make money off of, it's actually quite BS.
When I started learning about the process, I was like, I should have did this.
But there's a lot of lawyers are only helping out if you women, if you.
If you talk to them, they'll tell you it's mostly women.
It's men, but it's mostly women.
Who am I to argue with you if you've spoken to them?
Well, you're welcome to talk to the ones in London.
I don't mind.
It'll probably tell you the same thing.
This is the thing, Hannah.
Like, we can't solve this conflict.
If I say, well, I've spoken to loads of bankruptcy lawyers in London and they tell me the complete opposite.
And then if you tell me, but I've spoken to loads of bankruptcy lawyers in Chicago, who's going to come out on top?
If both of us have an equal distribution of anecdotal evidence, who's coming out on top?
Well, it's probably someone with the data as well.
Well, I have the data.
Well, I don't, here's the thing.
I don't care about winning.
I'm just having a conversation.
So I'm telling you what I think.
You can tell me what you think.
So you'll concede to losing then?
I'll have a conversation with you.
I don't winning, losing.
I don't care.
Like, it's what I'm telling you.
If you don't care, then like you're making some kind of concession.
If you want to take it that way, it's not my problem.
How else do I take it?
I mean, you could look at the data too.
The majority of bankruptcies are filed by women.
That's not the argument that I'm making.
I'm not trying to argue with you about bankruptcy among women.
Okay.
Well, then you could.
I'm trying to argue with you that telling women that they receive some kind of special treatment and that they get to not pay off their debts for the rest of their lives is a silly thing to say.
Well, I don't think that's a good idea.
Well, finally, I think that's a good thing.
And that women aren't receiving special treatment.
Finally, Trump has to do with the best.
Finally, finally, Trump has come in and starts garnishing women's wages.
So that's been awesome.
So sometimes there is some out of student loans.
So again, because women are the ones defaulting majority on their student loans.
So finally, Trump has come in and I can't remember the law he passed, but basically they can take it out of your bank account now, where before they would just default and you couldn't take it out of their bank account.
Thank God.
So do you think this should apply for like, what if men are doing humanities degrees as well?
Yeah, I agree.
But more women.
Is it the issue is that you devalue a humanities degree as something that's not necessarily worthwhile.
I don't know anything about a humanities degree, but it doesn't sound like it.
I don't know.
Do you know what the humanities means?
I don't know anything about that degree.
you're welcome to tell me.
But what I would do if I was to analyze that is I would look at the- So the humanities is like- Humanities, average- So you have science, technology, engineering, maths, men are more likely to do this.
And then you have humanities subjects.
So this is like I study humanities subjects.
I study political science and international relations.
You have like economics as a humanity.
Oh, no.
All of these.
Okay, I know what you're talking about.
You have law is a humanity.
So women are more like to do that.
And men are more like to be doing STEM.
But this gap is kind of closing as you see more gender equality happening anyway.
Well, the challenge is.
So is your issue with the fact that women are doing bad degrees or is your issue the fact that like no one should be doing a humanities degree?
I don't care what degree you want to do.
I'm looking at the subjects that that entails.
None of these seem to have a high ROI.
So if you don't make the money back and pay back the money and then society has to bail you out and they pass things like student loan forgiveness, which comes from our taxes, that's when I have a problem.
It is the majority one gender that is doing that.
But if a man does it too, I have the same problem.
My issue is that you have to be able to do that.
I think we also have an issue that's really specific to the US, which has extremely inflated tuition fees.
So people probably feel that they have much more skin in the game when it comes to mandating what they believe people's personal choices should be.
In the United Kingdom, can you guess what our tuition fees look like?
I went to school in the UK, I think my...
Oh, you did?
Yeah.
You know, you know firsthand.
We have, like, we are way cheaper than you guys over in the US.
And we're more likely therefore to get to ROI.
I got to be honest.
You guys are.
So do you think maybe it's a system of like tuition fees dealing a bad hand?
Or do you think it's women making bad choices?
Because for example, if you have a woman in like China who goes to pursue a degree in something, that's going to look very different to a woman in America pursuing the same degree.
So would you say that it's a national issue rather than a gender issue?
No, because I didn't really see a difference.
Like the girls, and this is what I mean with first-hand experience, right?
The women I went to school with, none of them are really working in their field.
Like maybe it's because I'm an athlete, but half of them are trainers.
They didn't even get jobs in their field.
So like you went to school, made friends with a bunch of athletes and then got some.
Yeah, well, I played volleyball in England for three years.
And all your friends were like athletes as well?
The people I knew were athletes.
Some were friends, some weren't.
But yeah.
And then a lot of them ended up going on to become like trainers.
A lot of them.
Good percent.
Or like working in like serving like a lot of that.
A lot of those women, like all of these women becoming personal trainers.
Well, it wasn't just that.
Is that crazy?
It wasn't just that.
It was like serving jobs.
My point is they weren't working in the field.
So like you made friends with people who are athletes and then those athletes went on to become personal trainers.
And then you're deciding that that means women don't use their humanities degrees?
Well, it wouldn't just be that.
It would be patterns that I've seen not just there, but like even in undergrad and the, it would be the same thing, different countries, women getting degrees in one thing and not working in that.
I mean, what percent of STEM do you think goes are women?
STEM?
That's a good question, actually.
I think that we're seeing a little bit more of an even distribution these days of STEM subjects between men and women because gender equality measures are increased.
Not really.
There's less power to entry for women nowadays.
It's 22%.
And even when they get into the field, like, for example, most female doctors quit before they're 40.
Yeah, most doctors are quite rich by the time they're 40.
No, they're not.
That's actually just not true.
In America, they have some of the highest wages in the world.
No, they do have high wages, but they have to pay back.
I have a friend who's doing it right now.
It's going to take him.
Okay, so women make up 34% of the STEM workforce.
It's not quite as dramatic.
In terms of certain degrees, women account for more than half in some STEM contexts.
So I'm seeing here that it's like women account for quite a, is it quite, is this engineering?
Yeah, so women are underrepresented in STEM degrees.
They're less likely to go for STEM degrees.
But I don't think it's quite as dramatic as like 22%.
It looks more like 35 to 40%.
So it's like a 10 to 15% difference.
Correct.
But the challenge is if you look at how long they stay in the field, most of them quit before the 10-year mark.
And the thing that the directors, they quit because it's harder than they thought is my take.
You're probably gonna have to.
Is it that women 10 years into their career are suddenly realizing it's hard?
Or is it that women 10 years into their career are more likely to have a child?
Well, if you have a kid, they have daycare now.
So you can get daycare.
Right.
It's not really.
Well, if they've got daycare.
I don't really see your point.
And then they can't.
Would you agree that a lot of women end up entering their job when they're not?
And the children are.
And the thing is, well, and the thing is, most women aren't even having kids.
Like, that's why they keep talking about the birth rate.
A lot of women are having kids.
What's the birth rate's less than two?
What are you talking about?
Well, Bill, I know loads of women who have kids.
So how are you going to argue with that?
I know loads of women and actually all have like 10 kids.
I used to live across the street from 12 kids.
That's crazy.
How old were they?
I'm shove it because I know a guy.
No, that's 17.
I'm asking you questions.
So if that's true, how old were the parents?
The parents were.
So when I was younger, this, like, I'm actually going to go here.
You know what?
Like, if we're actually using this metric, if we're actually being like insane, I'm going to go here.
So I was at a time, this is eight years ago.
So I'm 20 years old.
I would have been 12.
Okay.
When I knew this couple who had a bunch of kids, I think they even had a, they had a TV show.
They owned a pie shot and their TV show was about how they just had so many fucking kids and they couldn't stop having kids.
And then this was entertaining for people.
So this is eight years ago.
The couple would probably be, they were quite a young couple.
They started having kids pretty young.
So 40, 45.
Okay.
But my point, my point, my point is that actually backs up what I'm saying, because this is when you were 12, right?
Yes.
Okay.
Different, different, like my, my, I'm from a family of 10 kids.
Okay.
So that would actually match up with what I've seen.
When I was a kid, I knew a lot of people with five, six kids, but nowadays, not really.
Maybe, maybe all the girls that last week and he had 12 kids.
So well, that's possible.
We're at.
And that's the thing I could.
How old are you?
And then you give me some kind of awkward from that.
If you see like this agenda, do you know?
Okay.
Do you know why?
Do you understand why I'm like old enough?
I can just lie to you.
Tilly, do you know what good faith is and bad faith?
Do you know what the difference is?
Yeah, and I think that is a bad faith argument to continue throwing anecdotes at me when I present.
And I'm taking the logic, like add absurdium to demonstrate to you that this is an absurd way to talk about.
I've been polite to you.
Would you agree or disagree?
Like I've let you come on.
I think I've been told with one another.
Correct, correct.
But when good faith is, I'm not going to assume that you're lying.
Okay.
Sure.
And so if you tell me lying either about anecdotes, but that doesn't mean if you want to keep insinuating, it's totally fine.
But I'm telling you what I've seen.
And I'm not going to patronize you when you tell me what you've seen.
So if you tell me that you've met this person, I'm just not.
What I'm going to say is it doesn't necessarily belong in a conversation where we're thinking about actual broad sweeping generalizations about society.
And the example that I bring is when you told me a bunch of my friends didn't use their humanities degrees, I'm an athlete.
I had loads of athletes' friends and they became personal trainers.
Do you understand how that actually doesn't tie into anything about humanities degrees whatsoever?
All it ties into is your friend group and who you were friends with.
Well, this is why anecdotes are way more unreliable than studies.
Well, I did see a similar thing because I'm thinking like the girls that studied psychology, there's a lot of them on my team, both in the US and here.
And they just didn't seem to work in the field if they did anything in writing, anything.
And you can say that's not what you've seen.
You can tell me what you've seen at Oxford, but there's no need to like patronize me if I'm being polite to you.
You know what I mean?
I'm not being patronizing at all.
I'm just saying it's a silly metric, right?
Like, I'm not patronizing you as a person.
I'm sure that you have experienced those things.
I'm sure you're that's totally, we could go back and forth.
What you do going forward is up to you.
I'm just letting you know.
Okay, so how do you think?
So, you think the credit cards were oppressive?
What else did you think were oppressive?
No, no, I think that banning women from having credit cards was oppressive.
Okay, that's totally fine.
Was there anything else that you think women were oppressed?
Uh, yeah, I think that women have historically been the victims of um violent crime, domestic abuse, uh, violent crime from men towards women and domestic abuse and rape and femicide.
Say grapefruit, marriage is increasingly more or less.
I'm sorry, if you don't, I do have to, I'm gonna let you go, but say grape just for YouTube.
I tried to say, Yeah, yeah, I didn't tell you that, that's my fault, but just say grape.
That is okay.
So, so yeah, women are the primary victims of grape, and that includes, for example, warfare.
So, for example, grape victims have higher rates of PTSD than veterans, and also oftentimes we can take various examples of wars where men have gone and fought in wars, but for every man that has fought in a war, upwards of three to four women have been graped.
Okay, three to four women.
And where do you find this three to four women have been graped?
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering where it came from.
No, no, no, no.
So, you have examples like the Republic of the Congo from like 1998.
So, this is the grape capital of the world.
Okay, cool.
And there are also a lot of active combatants in the Congo.
And if you look at these figures, what you'll see is that about three to four women are graped per man involved in that war in the Congo.
Could you do me a favor?
And if possible, can we stick to the West?
And the reason is because when you start bringing in Africa and these other countries, it's just out of my scope.
I don't want to like argue about something I don't know.
You know, if you're welcome to bring that back, but I would primarily love to just stay in the West.
Is that possible?
Okay, so can we do Soviet invasion of Germany then?
We can, but I'd really just prefer to keep UK, America.
So, just the fine, fine, that's fine.
The West.
I did say the West.
That's fine.
You just say the West.
I did.
I did.
Fine.
Go ahead.
Sure.
Like, so, so in like 1944 and 45, you have one to two million German women are graped.
And the Soviet soldiers in Europe at the time is like 4 million.
So this is a case where you have about 0.5 women graped per soldier.
But this is also like something where it's super concentrated among certain divisions.
And it's also like disproportionately affecting a bunch of civilian women.
So you have soldiers versus civilian women.
And even if we conservatively generalize from a bunch of case studies, I know you said stick to the West, but if we conservatively generalize like globally, and also if we generalize from wars that happen within the West, even though a lot of wars that happen are proxy wars outside of the West, where Western soldiers then are out like diffuse across Europe and outside of it, so that they can like impose whatever agenda or what is your definition of grape?
Does that include like is that like knife to your head or sorry, knife to you know, grape or is this like drunken regret grape?
Like what is the I, you might have someone has if someone has sex and then drunkenly regrets having it, then no, obviously they weren't graped.
Okay, cool.
They have regrets.
All right, fine, fine.
So my opinion is that men built civilization.
Historically, men worked laborous jobs seven to six, six, six to seven days a week and went off and died in wars.
Women stayed inside.
They were teachers.
They were secretaries.
They raised the kid.
They were cleaners.
I do think grapefruit cleaners.
Let's just I'm not pro-grape, you know, that's unfortunate.
That did happen in wars, but I would say historically men did have it harder and women were a protected class, especially in America.
If women were such a protected class, then why were so many women graped as a weapon of war?
And why is it that grape victims who are overwhelmingly women have higher rates of PTSD than veterans?
Well, PTSD.
I would say suicide is a better, you know, because you can kind of, you know, take a survey and do whatever.
But if you look at suicide rates of veterans, I mean, more veterans in America have committed suicide than all of the world wars combined.
It's really not good.
That's because more men are successful at committing suicide.
I know that sounds like a crude way of saying it, but about the same amount as men of women attempt suicide.
But it's just that men are more likely to be successful at it because they use more violent methods.
Like they're more likely to.
I understand that women also attempt, but I got to look at who's dying here.
And this is kind of my issue.
Why does that matter more?
Well, this is kind of my issue with feminists is I never understand why you guys, when you talk about a men's issue, like that's a terrible thing, right?
But we always have to make it about women.
Like I never understood why we can't say, hey, you know, because I have relatives that served, right?
And these are guys that like, you know, they went overseas for 20, 30 years.
And the stuff they come back, like they, they came back with was pretty rough.
So I just never understood why we try to minimize men's issues.
And you kind of do that.
You can never minimize a veteran going through terrible things.
I also have relatives who are veterans and I think that it is a men's issue.
And I'm totally like someone who advocates against all unnecessary wars and for justice for men.
And I think as much as humanly possible, we should be avoiding conscription and the draft for everybody.
I'm definitely not someone who would minimize it.
Well, what are the facts on the ground are that grape has a higher rate of PTSD?
That's not saying that PTSD among veterans is like minimal and like not that.
It's like not that.
Right.
But why even bring that up then?
You know what I mean?
It's like why?
Because I'm demonstrating because you asked me a question about how women have been historically more oppressed than men.
And I've given you one and then you've told me that I'm actually just doing a minimization test.
Well, because you guys kind of do.
And that's why I keep trying to say when we talk about women and talk about men, let's try to keep it separate if we can.
Because I've just noticed whenever I bring up like a men's issue, like if I say, you know, men don't have access to their kids, it's always, well, women don't have access to their kids.
Or if I say, hey, men are victims of suicide from war, it's like, well, women have PTSD too.
It's like.
I think it's because you're using those facts to make prescriptive claims about what women should do in response.
Like I would totally go to a conference or whatever it is and like hear men's stories and listen to them speak about the horrible things that they've been through and empathize with them on the fact that they've experienced this oppression in society.
I'm not going to go and show up to a conference where men when men like make these claims.
And then from that, what follows is, and also like women's claims.
Well, you realize like veterans.
I believe we're equal footing in that.
Well, you realize like veterans are a good percentage of my audience.
So, you know, it's like they listen to this, you know, this, this pretty blonde girl, right?
And she's like, yeah, well, women have suicide too.
You know, it can be.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all.
I'm saying that if you've been graped, that is also likely to happen during a war.
Yeah.
Okay.
So these are, these are things that veterans might also share.
So for example, if you're a veteran and a woman, like you've probably experienced some kind of essay on grape in your life.
So there is that.
But also it's like, I don't understand how a veteran could conclude that I'm minimizing their struggles by saying that grape victims have extremely high rates of PTSD.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, this is kind of why men don't open up to women because they'll say, I don't know how you could feel that way.
Sorry.
I think you're not.
I think you're well-meaning.
I think you're well-meaning.
I think you're well-meaning, but I'm just telling you how it comes across.
Okay, so what else was I going to, okay, so you think the grape, I'll give you the grape, you think women, the majority of women have been graped today?
Do you really think that?
No.
Oh, okay.
I didn't know if you meant that today.
So you don't think that.
But the majority of women have experienced some capacity of sexual harassment.
Like if you look at this objectively.
Don't they include cat calling in that?
Is cat calling sexual harassment?
I don't know.
You tell them you would know more than me.
I don't know.
Why would I know more than you, Hannah?
Because you brought up sexual harassment.
I thought you would know, no?
So do you think that cat calling is sexual harassment?
I don't, but I don't know what the definition is.
So I would, I personally, how can you say something isn't sexual harassment?
Because I don't know what.
You can't define it.
How are we doing this?
Well, I don't, I can't quote, you know, what's the definition of anything?
I can't quote you the definition of like light or microphone off the top of my head.
So I don't know what the dictionary definition is.
I'm just saying personally, it wouldn't offend me.
I'd just say no, thank you.
Well, I'll give you the definition of sexual harassment.
It's harassing someone sexually.
And cat calling falls under harassing someone sexually because it's going up to someone and harassing them in a sexual context.
Oh my God, it's no wonder men don't approach anymore.
Because who determines the difference between like a harassment and wanted attention?
You know what I mean?
No, not really.
Could you explain what you mean by that?
Well, men used to cat call because sometimes it worked, right?
Some women were into it.
Yeah, I mean, sometimes I walk down the street and a man shouts nice tits, come and get in my car.
And I'm like, you know what?
Like, I'm going to get, like, that's, he's got a point, right?
Like, cat calling is not something that works.
Courting someone works.
Going on a date with someone works.
Telling someone that they're beautiful and you'd like to take them out works.
Shouting nice tits across the street isn't like a foolproof way to prove that you're like marriageable to a woman.
Yeah, but I mean, I have you're gonna, you're gonna say I know a guy, but I do know a guy.
And he approaches, he doesn't say it.
He doesn't say it like that, but you know, he'll say you're beautiful, you know, or, you know, like that.
But some women, like, even if he's trying to be respectful, they take it the wrong way, you know, and I know him.
He's not, you know, he's not trying to harass anybody, but, you know, he wants to get a date.
And I empathize with that.
I think that men should also be a little bit sensitive to the fact that they're much physically stronger than women by a lot of different metrics.
So women are more like to be intimidated when a man approaches them, telling them that they think they're beautiful or they're very attractive, and that potentially there should be a little bit of sensitivity around that.
Okay.
I think if it's done politely, I would take no issue with being approached.
I'm just politely rejecting it and going on with my day.
And then totally fine.
Okay.
With that, there's a difference between sexual aggression and just being approached and asked out.
And I think there's no issue with that.
And I actually would, I would encourage more men to approach women in public.
I would also, I would encourage the reverse.
I also, I think that things like dating apps can be a little bit harmful to the dating team, right?
Okay.
So I think that women are a protected class in society.
And I want to know, why don't feminists fight for women to do 50% of the manual labor in society?
So like construction, plumbing, electrician.
Like why is there only talks of women not being CEOs, but there's never talks of women like or of women doing construction jobs, for example?
I think there's two things that you can say about this.
The first one is that construction is considered a less aspirational job.
So most people don't dream of being a construction worker, even men.
But the second thing is like doing hard jobs doesn't dictate your societal value.
And I think that even ultra traditionalist people recognize that.
Like a lot of people who are super conservative and traditional will say women bring just as much value through childcare and nursing and typically female-dominated industries.
And maybe even some feminists would agree with that on different grounds.
Like when it comes to social participation, society is about working as a team to achieve things.
For example, like, would you say, like, oh, we should encourage like men over 40 to go and do construction or work in an oil, work at an oil rig?
I think that if women want equality, that women should do 50% of the hard jobs before they complain about not getting paid the same.
Men make 75% of the food supply, 80% of the world's stuff.
And there's an economist.
He categorized jobs.
What is world's stuff?
So there's an economist and he categorized jobs into like job, like basically jobs that if the power went like jobs that society could survive without and jobs society couldn't.
And it's like men do.
Hold on.
Actually, I have the book.
Do you care if I read it to you?
Do you care?
Is that all right?
Since we're doing that.
No, I don't care.
Because he's so smart.
He came on my show.
Contribution to the GDP.
Let me see.
One second.
Should have done this before.
My bad.
But it's just men do all the jobs where if the lights went out tomorrow, society could not function, is my point.
So it's like me, like, for example, I have this job, right?
But if I went away tomorrow, a lot of women would be happy.
But like society would be fine, right?
I'm not egotistical enough to think I'm that important.
But, you know, I do interviews and I'll interview men that do construction for 30 years, that do plumbing for 30 years.
They're firemen.
And these are men that we can't survive without.
You know, like human resources.
That's a very discomfortable thing.
We've witnessed loads of circumstances when women have survived and adapted to circumstance.
Okay.
Are you talking about like the factory jobs?
Is that your point?
Like they always say like World War II.
But during World War II, this has happened already and society didn't crumble and collapse.
Well, that was factory jobs, though.
So they were factories that men built.
They're also building farms and they were doing construction and they were doing difficult jobs.
So many men.
What percent of the workforce was women during that time?
Was it the majority?
What I would say is that if men are the majority, during that time, was it the majority?
I just need this answer from you.
Was it the majority?
I don't know if it was a majority.
What I am saying is, you told me that if tons of men leave the harder jobs, then society will collapse.
During World War II, tons of men, even if it's not the majority, but loads of them between the ages of 18 and 39, went overseas to fighting wars and society didn't collapse.
Even if you're going to tell me, oh, actually, it was a small amount of women who entered the workforce.
What they proved was that that's more money than that.
What percent?
What percent of society didn't collapse?
No, but what percent of factory workers were women at the time?
You see how, like, even if you give me some statistic, that still doesn't matter to me.
If I said my claims in here, it was it, if I said 5%, that wouldn't change.
You wouldn't think, okay, maybe they didn't weren't as important as we thought.
Not really, because I've already explained to you why.
Okay.
Okay.
But it was only 25% of women doing those jobs.
So one in four people.
That means that one in four, about one in four men had left and gone to fight wars overseas.
If one in four men did that and society was fine, then does that not prove my point exactly?
Not at all.
Not at all.
Because they're still in the workforce doing the difficult jobs, doing the construction, being women and doing it well, such that, for example, England does really well when there's a lot of people.
Because if it okay, because if the 25% went away, they would be fine.
But I think if 25% of the workforce fucking died, then that would be awful.
That would not be fine.
You're actually proving my point that women love taking credit for men's work.
I'm not taking credit for any man's work.
I wasn't there in World War II.
Yeah, I just said men are dying in battle and running the factories.
And you said, but the women did 25% of the factory work.
You told me women did 25% of the factory work.
I agreed.
Men are like dying.
And you're like, well, the women survived without the men.
Because you told me that women can't survive without men.
And I told you, they can't.
But I'm saying, like, if tomorrow men's jobs disappeared, like, we would be screwed as women.
We could not operate the bad people.
Well, imagine if the only people we had left in society were guys who work in the oil rigs.
Oh, thank God.
It'd be a little bit screwed as well if we didn't have teachers, educators, nurses, midwives and all that.
I can just, that would be amazing.
There would be no nagging.
Oh, my God.
I dream about a world like that.
But you'd have like an abundance of fucking oil.
Yeah, that sounds good.
That sounds good.
Oil prices, they've been mad.
Yeah, you have an abundance of oil, so your oil, your oil price goes down.
Okay, so you think misogyny.
Women are dying because you've got no more midwives.
Okay, do you mind if I take a break to read super chats?
Is that all right with you?
I don't mind.
I told them to be.
I'm actually super interested to see how this listen, but if they pay me, I do read it.
So I just want you to know it is not personal.
I don't think they've said anything rude.
If they had, please don't get mad at me.
Okay.
I don't get mad at you.
I don't get mad easily.
All right.
So we got listening to a female is like scratching your fingernails on a chalkboard.
Eric, men absolutely dream about working in construction.
I would know I'm a construction manager.
Most guys in the field love their jobs, especially difficult ones.
Eric, published in 2014 by a U.S. Census bureau, about 50% of women in STEM leave the workforce or the field in 12 years, usually before 35.
Eric, women find it less gratifying to have a prestigious career than raise kids.
They only get high-wage jobs to get in the proximity of wealthy men.
Soria, Bill Foster defense from falling down.
Silveria, women are so nurturing they can't wait to get child support checks, paying for a babysitter to go out to the clubs.
Women don't want to stay home for fear of missing out.
The attorney, Andrew, the men are married happier right up until the bitch divorces them and takes their kids and their stuff and they're unmarried and unhappy.
Sorry, that was funny.
Severia, my wife, my wife ballooned during pregnancy from stress eating candies.
Now my girlfriend isn't getting big while pregnant.
Pregnancy, obesity is just excuses.
So Varia, I liked the idea of becoming Muslim, but a beacon won me over.
Oh, wait, but bacon won me over having four wives that can slap around.
Silly.
Let me know when they allow bacon and beer.
Eric says, oh, wait, I think I read that.
Let me refresh it real quick.
Do you think you're smarter than them?
Was that the point of that comment?
No, I think that saying that he wants a wife to slap around isn't necessarily a particularly intellectual point their wife ballooned in pregnancy.
Do people at Oxford have humor?
Like, you guys don't think things are fun.
I told you I found it really funny when that guy said that if when his wife leaves him and takes all of his shit, then he's going to be unhappy then.
I think that's hilarious.
thought the woman slapping was funny too i don't think that one's funny i mean not because i'm offended but because i like don't find it funny right yeah but it's you know like i just didn't get i'm a cambridge pearl yeah i don't get it not oxford i'm sorry i'm sorry i don't know why i know you from the oxford clip so in my head you go to oxford i know i was in cambridge at that time i don't know why people kind of took the oxford thing and they ran oh really Okay.
So we'll do one more topic because I do have to end at nine.
All right.
But I would love to have you on again.
Okay.
So misogyny is the foundation of the modern gender conflict.
Can you tell me?
I think you sent me that one.
Maybe you can tell me what you mean by that.
That's an interesting one that you've picked.
I wasn't expecting you to necessarily pick this up.
I can pick a different one.
I thought you sent that to me, but if you have one, you can pick the last topic because I think I've picked.
You know what?
That's fair because you picked the other topic.
Yeah, that's the one.
I'm going to pick the topic that your audience will hate the most, which is which one will they hate?
Which one will gone the most?
The most hatred.
What did you say?
Maybe feminism reduces sex work.
Okay.
I'll tell you what I think.
Do you, from your worldview, do you include marriage as sex work?
I know some feminists, that's how they view it.
So is that how you view it?
No, unless it's forced marriage.
Okay, totally fine.
So that doesn't.
My initial gut reaction is that is not true based on the number of women on OnlyFans, but I'm totally, you can change my mind.
I'm going to read a super chat just because it was a big one.
It's a little bit invasive.
You don't have to answer it.
Hey, Pearl, what does she bring to the table and what is her body count?
Do you want to answer that?
Oh, no, I don't answer personal questions.
I agree, but it's 50, but I'm going to read it.
Sorry.
Go ahead.
No problem.
50.
OK, so what I would say is tough times.
Sorry.
Go ahead.
What I would say is that there are loads of avenues through which women leave sex work.
Okay.
And all of these avenues are advocated by feminists.
So if you want to reduce sex work, then you should have more liberal values in society.
And I'll explain what I mean by that.
We have this huge study that I know you, I know you hate them, but we have this huge study in 2020 that basically dictated that an increased access to female formal employment is the strongest statistical factor in reducing entry into sex work.
So firstly, we should qualify that women on OF and women who choose sex work are a tiny minority of individuals, even within the West.
In multiple countries, across like, I think 15 plus countries, between 65% and a very conservative estimate and 90% of women said that they would leave sex work if they had a stable income, if they had affordable housing, if they had education and job training.
So what I'm saying is if you want to reduce sex work, then you should encourage more women to be in the workforce, more women to get an education, and should encourage more women to view their power as something that lies outside of sexual appeal to men.
And that's something that feminists advocate for all the time.
1.4 million women in the United States are active content creators on OnlyFans.
And most of those women are...
Is that a percentage of the U.S. population?
No.
No, but if you include women under 35, because let's be honest, it's not like, no, who wants to see older women?
Something like 5%.
Something like 5%.
Do you know what?
I did the math once on my show and I can't remember off the top of my head.
Yeah, I know.
It was 10%, but you got it wrong because then I did it.
And it was about half of that.
All right.
5%.
That's still a lot, I would say, to be doing that that young.
I mean, it depends how you qualify this.
Okay.
Like a lot compared to what.
Okay.
I don't know.
I just think that's a lot.
5% of women under, I think it was under 25.
Should we double-check this?
You're totally welcome to.
When I said it on the show, I don't know if you watched, there was a clip that went viral, but it's unfortunate they cut before where I was like, look, guys, these are the numbers I'm looking at.
I'm not sure.
This is what I'm seeing.
I think they cut that, though.
They take clips from it.
Since I'm in the UK, all I'm seeing is the UK.
That's totally fine.
Which is that it's 4%.
Women between ages 18 and 34 are.
Yeah, but I would argue it's a little bit higher.
And the reason is because there are women, like, do you remember a couple of years?
You might be too young.
Like, 10 years ago, all these influencers got found out to be like for sale where like they're getting pooped on in Dubai, if you remember that.
Now, I'm not saying that that's the majority, but I think we could like we could guess that there's some under-the-table stuff where women have sex for rent.
I had a PI on my show, and that's like one of, that's one of the sex work that he's found is pretty common.
So I would guess, like, can we, could we meet at like six, seven percent?
I mean, we can meet at whatever figure, right?
I think that what's important to acknowledge is that it's very difficult to measure sex work because it's illegal in a lot of places.
It's highly stigmatized in a lot of places.
So people are more likely to keep it a secret, especially in societies that are honor-based, like India.
So in India and China, for example, we're not otter-based.
We're not really higher sex work, but there is a lot of sex work and a lot of sex trafficking that occurs.
Yeah, but we're not otter-based in the U.S. Come on.
No, we're not, which is why you see ostensibly more like an increase in sex work.
But actually, I would argue that it's probably more likely that you see sex workers in places like India where there's a higher rate of poverty, higher rate of honor-based killings, and limited opportunities for women.
I would argue that women don't do OnlyFans for money because the average OnlyFans creator makes like $150 a month.
Okay.
So to me, I think they do it because they like.
So, how does, can you map that conceptually onto my claim that feminism reduces sex work?
And because I think the women that want to be sex workers just like doing that.
An example would be a lot of fun.
I think that OnlyFans creators are a minority of sex workers.
Most sex workers don't want to be sex workers.
And most sex workers.
You think there's more prostitutes than OnlyFans workers?
Really?
Factually, yes.
Yes.
This is a total fact.
Okay.
OnlyFans models are a minority of sex workers.
How many prostitutes are there in the United States?
I mean, who really cares?
I don't think so.
I mean, obviously, it's going to give you a low figure because it's illegal to be a prostitute in many places across the United States, or it's illegal to be an OnlyFans creator.
Well, I would say that's just your guess, then?
No, it's not my guess.
It's like informed.
It's an informed thing.
Like based on what, if they're going to hide it.
Do you know what I mean?
Based on the fact that sex work in one capacity is highly stigmatized and illegal.
And if you're doing something illegal, you're probably not going to advertise to the internet or do some kind of study, involve yourself in that so that you then incriminate yourself.
Okay, it says estimates from one to two million.
Okay.
So then my 10% stat was about right if we included the hookers.
I think that's maybe what I included at the time.
Well, anyways, I don't really care about sex work.
I think they go ahead, sell your butthole for $5.99.
I really don't care.
Do you think that sex work gives women some kind of power in society?
Yeah.
I mean, it allows them to make money for no work, pretty much.
I mean, you just have to throw it back.
That's not hard.
Okay.
Just tell me they're not making any money.
Well, the ones that do make money make good money.
Well, it does.
There's a small cohort of sex workers who are powerful in society, and it's because of the fact that they're female sex workers.
Well, they'll usually do some outrageous content, like Bonnie Blue.
She's doing pretty well.
I met Lily Phillips, actually, when I was in.
Have you run into her out there?
No, I haven't.
That red pill rhetoric often treats sexual appeal as like real power.
But I don't think this is intuitively true, because if sexual power is real power, then men are going to have their dicks out on the cover of GT magazine all the time, but they don't, because they know that sexual power is just one type of power.
It's the most volatile and conditional kind of power.
Yeah I I, I do think that um, beautiful women get very cool opportunities, I would say um sure, but it's reliant on a power that depends entirely on being physically desired by another group.
Hence there are no safety nets.
It can be withdrawn at any time and it functions only within the confines of male approval.
Like, it's more difficult for you to take a law degree from someone than it is to revoke your sexual attention right um well, I mean, if they want to get rid of the sexual attention, just get fat takes like six months sure, exactly that's what i'm saying.
Right, the way that you remove your, if you have all this like perceived power in society, the only like the ways you can remove it is by like, just getting becoming overweight, saying something that men don't like or men collectively design, they're gonna remove.
You could say anything, they'll still hit.
If you're pretty enough, they don't care.
They don't care at all.
Um, do I think I was gonna say, is it easy for women to lose that power, or is it?
I would say that feminism?
I would say feminism is what it takes.
I would say in the, I would say in the past, I would say if we're gonna go from like the 20s to now, I would say there's probably more sex workers now.
So I would say feminism increased sex work because it it gave women technology the ability to divorce and leave their husbands, and technology that allows them to do sex work from the comfort of their own home.
Men are so nice, they literally built us like phones so you can be a whore at home.
Well, I mean, the first computer programmer was a woman.
But I think like to kind of pivot from this and go back to the original claim that i'm making.
What did she intend?
I think that this type of behavior has existed for thousands of years, especially among women who have narrowly defined choices.
Now sure, you're right, we film it online and the women are beholden to an agency behind the scenes so, but this is a thing that's always existed and so you can't claim that the right has come from feminism, because previously it looks like entire industries dedicated to dividing women based on the fact of whether they were concubines, or royalty or peasants.
For example, you have like courtesans in Imperial China who entertained scholars and emperors in flower houses.
You have renaissance Venice.
You have courtesans' fame there relying on their sexual availability.
You have France's Ancient regime uh, with like Madame De Pompadour is like a super famous example of like a Lily Phillips of the Ancien Regime okay, who wielded this political influence through sex workers.
I think it makes no sense to make the argument that these people were a product of feminism when it's an art sexist for thousands of years, more often than happening thousands of years ago, like at a higher.
I don't really care.
To be honest, like I, I think there's always been sex workers.
If there's more or less now, it's definitely more out in the open now and i'd say feminism made that more like them able to function in society.
Well, you just said it was phones.
So is it feminism or is it phones?
Well, i'd say both.
Um, but the.
Do you know what's interesting?
You said the first female programmer um, was a woman.
Women care about titles, men care about accomplishments.
So it's kind of interesting because whenever it's always like Not true, it's yeah.
Well, then you would have said that.
We think about when women were allowed to receive Nobel Peace Prizes or when women were allowed to receive certain awards from like filmmaking and stuff.
We've had to carve out like by forcefully fighting for it.
You know what's the capacity to even be granted an award?
Do you know what's so funny?
Do you know what's so funny?
You just brought up awards too.
Like, men don't care about awards, women do.
So men don't care about awards.
Can we be real?
It's so funny you brought that up.
Men don't care about achieving things in society and being given credit for it.
I thought you spent all day complaining online about the fact that men are never given enough credit for their achievements.
Well, yeah, but that notice how it's me complaining.
A woman, it's like on brand.
Oh, okay.
And your audience of men.
Do you know what's interesting, though?
Like the first female programmer you're talking about, she never built a computer.
She just wrote about the concept.
That's it.
A computer programme.
Ada Lovelace, right?
You build the computer.
A computer programmer means you write the code.
So yeah.
That's who you're talking about, right?
Ada Lovelace.
Yeah, she never built a computer.
She just wrote about the concept.
Yeah.
It's like much harder to invent code than it is to build.
I doubt it.
It's women always want credit.
Okay.
I'm annoying.
You just have it, right?
Like it's not necessarily something that we're begging for.
Like if the credit's there, then like it's just there.
Well, then, then why do you have to beg for it?
Like that's that's always I'm just saying that's that's what like feminism is.
It's you guys like saying, give us more credit.
But if you were that good, we would just see it.
You wouldn't have to beg for it.
I don't think that's true.
It is true.
How do you, how do you, how do you evidence that?
Um, I know pretty productive men, not so much women.
Um, okay, so we're back to the start.
Your evidence is, I know a guy.
Well, I could give a public example.
Like, um, for example, Donald Trump.
I'm going to use right-leaning ones because I like them, obviously.
Um, he's just productive, he doesn't have to go around saying he's productive, he just is.
Elon Musk saying Donald Trump doesn't have to go around saying he's productive.
Donald Trump says he's the most productive man in the history of America.
Donald Trump's favorite president is himself.
Donald Trump is practicing he's a least racist man of the least man of the best man.
The best president, his entire press conference is a lot of people.
I think women, I think women is just endless nagging.
Sorry.
I think you mean the weirdest example to bring up when you think about someone who's not self-aggrandizing.
Okay, well, that's the two hours.
I did enjoy this.
I think you're a nice girl.
So I did enjoy this.
And if you would like, you're welcome to come back on the show when I want to argue some more.
Would you like to come back or are you traumatized?
No, I'm not traumatized.
I thought your comments would be much worse.
All right.
I mean, I thought you're super chats.
No, I think, you know, I think a lot of my stuff isn't as I don't really care about the sex work, though, if it was more now or then.
Be a hooker.
You know, I don't care anymore.
I mean, they don't really call it the youngest profession in the world, do they?
No, they've done it forever.
Well, do you have any final thoughts?
Can they find you anywhere?
Yeah, my final thoughts are: you, I mean, if you want to send me some hate comments or mass report my account, then you can find me at Blonde Praxis on TikTok.
And I think that Pearl should maybe think about the fact that some of her views are actually less progressive than organizations like the Taliban.
And potentially, like, we should think about the implications of that, right?
Because I was going through some quotes from the Taliban Minister of Justice, for example, who was speaking about how women wanting to work may cause them to commit suicide.
Or if a woman wants to work away from her home and with men, then that's like against their culture.
And I think that insofar as adult would agree with that, she's aligning herself with me.
I think women should work.
I don't have a problem with women working.
I don't, I actually I would love to see more women work, actually.
I think we're pretty lazy.
We've got to work the oil rigs and we've got to raise our kids.
No, seriously, I would love to see women on the oil rigs.
Okay.
I'll see you next week at the oil rig, Pearl.
We can go, all right.
Thanks for coming on.
I do appreciate a good back and forth.
Anyways, guys, thank you so much for watching tonight.
Let me know what you guys think in the comments.
And if you have a topic you want us to debate next time, put it in the comments and we'll set it up.