Human Events Daily - Jack Posobiec - Blowback: The Untold Story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City Bombing

Aug. 4, 2025 - Human Events Daily - Jack Posobiec

41:51

Blowback: The Untold Story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City Bombing

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	This is what happens when the fourth turning meets fifth generation warfare.
	Safety, safety, safety!
	A commentator, international social media sensation, and former Navy intelligence veteran.
	This is Human Events with your host, Jack Posovic.
	Christ is King.
	And good morning, everyone.
	I'm Matt Lauer in New York, and we do have a special report from NBC News.
	There has been a massive explosion at a federal building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
	It happened just a short time ago.
	A large portion of that building has collapsed.
	The AP Murray Federal Building, that's the correct name of it.
	We're now told it is a complex in downtown Oklahoma City housing more than 500 workers.
	How many civilians who were there doing business at the time, we don't know for sure.
	There has been considerable loss of life, including the deaths of more than one dozen young children and a daycare center.
	It is kept falling.
	It was a horrible noise.
	Horrible noise.
	On April 19th, 1995, Timothy McVeigh, an American Gulf War veteran, shocked America when he committed what was at that time the most devastating terrorist attack on American soil.
	Debris, part of the building has been blown away.
	We're getting reports of numerous fatalities.
	Hard to believe we are looking at our own backyard.
	Leaving 168 people dead and hundreds more injured.
	The first lady we found.
	She grabbed me by the collar and said, Young man, there's a daycare center on the second floor.
	You got to get up there and get those babies.
	The blast destroyed nearly half of the building, collapsing its entire north wall.
	It also left a 16-block radius of destruction.
	25 buildings were completely destroyed.
	850 people were injured, many in the surrounding area.
	Things flash before you, your children, your loved ones, whether you're going to get to see them again.
	More than 200 FBI agents are now involved in a massive manhunt for the bombers.
	What is so evil in someone's heart that would make them do this?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Ladies and gentlemen, welcome aboard for a very special edition today of Human Events Daily on Real America's Voice.
	This is Blowback, the untold story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City bombing.
	I want to take you back to the 1990s.
	And for some of you, you may never have heard the story at all.
	But believe it or not, in the 1990s, the FBI, the federal agencies, the intelligence community, the national security apparatus, the government was seen as sacrosanct.
	Putting an FBI agent on the stand was all you needed for a conviction at trial because everyone believed the word of the FBI as gospel truth.
	And yet over the years, that's changed.
	And believe me, I know.
	I was there as a member of the intelligence community as well.
	I've worked with the FBI.
	I've worked with every three-letter agency you can think of.
	But we've learned something.
	And I think we've come to a different place as a country and as a society regarding the power of these agencies and the things that happen behind closed doors.
	For years, the official story of the Oklahoma City bombing has been etched into stone.
	Timothy McVeigh, a lone wolf, fueled by rage and racism, took it upon himself to blow up a federal building.
	End of story.
	Case closed.
	But what if I told you that's not the full picture?
	A new book is making waves, Blowback by Margaret Roberts.
	And it's not fiction.
	It lays out piece by piece a staggering case.
	The Oklahoma City bombing may not have been a simple act of domestic terrorism, but the tragic result of an FBI entrapment operation gone horribly wrong.
	We've learned a lot in the last 10 years, haven't we?
	From the Whitmer kidnapping plot, where half the crew turned out to be FBI informants, revelations about federal involvement on January 6th, to internal whistleblowers exposing corruption, censorship, political targeting.
	The American people are waking up.
	And the idea that the FBI might have had advanced knowledge, that informants were involved with McVeigh or Nichols, and that key evidence was buried.
	10 years ago, that was unthinkable.
	Today, it's not just plausible.
	It's worth investigating.
	And this book doesn't ask you to take its word for it.
	It shows you declassified memos, redacted interview notes, internal communications the media ignored, and it takes you right into actual death row interviews.
	And once you see it, you can't unsee it.
	America is ready now, ready to ask the hard questions, ready to revisit one of the darkest days in our history with clear eyes, not to excuse it, but to understand what really happened and to find out if we have been lied to for so long.
	The victims deserve clarity.
	And in fact, many of the families of the victims of this horrific act are involved in pushing for these answers as well.
	I've been talking about this on social media and I've been getting pushback already from federal agents and former federal agents who were involved in this.
	But I'm not going to stop.
	And neither should you.
	And neither did the author of this book, Margaret Roberts, because it's time for all of America to ask these questions and to find out the truth because the victims deserve that.
	The families deserve that.
	And the country deserves that.
	Because if we don't face the truth, no matter how ugly, it's going to happen again.
	Maybe it already has.
	We'll be right back.
	Jack Posobiec, Real America's Voice, the untold story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City bombing.
	The Voice of the FBI Nothing will stand in our way and our golden age has just begun.
	This is Human Events with Jack Pisovic.
	Now it's time for everyone to understand what America First truly means.
	Welcome to the second American Revolution.
	All right, Jack Pisovic back live here, Human Events Daily, Real America's Voice, Washington, D.C. We're taking a day, a special day, to go through this new book and we're devoting the entire show to it because it's that important.
	The book is Blowback, The Untold Story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City Bombing.
	And we have with us today, she's so gracious to spend the entire hour with us, Margaret Roberts, the author and also the former news director of America's Most Wanted.
	Margaret, how are you?
	Great to be with you, Jack.
	Thanks.
	Well, and I have to say thank you for putting together this book.
	And even, so I finished the book.
	We had you on briefly a couple of days ago, and I said, I have to get the book immediately.
	I got it.
	I downloaded it.
	I couldn't put it down.
	And I didn't realize that you actually play a role in the book itself in a number of these interviews, working as a paralegal.
	Tell us a little bit about that as your specific role in uncovering this information.
	Sure.
	Well, I got onto the case 10 years after the Oklahoma City bombing, though, like millions of Americans, I had witnessed the atrocity and the devastation of that day.
	But it wasn't until 10 years later, as I was prowling around for my old friends at America's Most Wanted, where I had been the news director, thinking about an anniversary piece on the mystery man of the Oklahoma City bombing, known only as John Doe II, one of the great mysteries of American crime.
	He rode next to Timothy McVeigh in the bomb truck.
	He was seen by 24 witnesses, and yet he vanished into thin air.
	So I was looking into that, Jack, and I got a phone call from a victim in Oklahoma City, a survivor, a grandmother who lost two babies in that daycare center slaughtered there that day.
	And 10 years after the bombing, having attended two trials, she was convinced that the government was not telling the truth about what really happened.
	And this idea then that the victims, and this is something because for a lot of people saying, oh, how can you, how can you reopen this?
	And that I think it's so important for people to understand that there are victim families that have reached out and they appear, by the way, every step of the way because of the access that they have to information that they've discovered.
	They've gotten through discovery or that they've gotten through various cases or just information they have because of course the victims' families are directly related to many of the eyewitnesses in this case, that they are the ones who have been demanding answers for 30 years.
	And this year, of course, is the 30-year anniversary.
	That's absolutely right.
	There were Kathy, now Kathy Sanders and her husband, Glenn Wilburn, in right after the bombing and for the next two years, were pivotal in unearthing hard evidence about the bombing that no one, including the FBI, was turning up.
	And they did so because they just had a burning desire to know the truth about what happened to their two grandchildren also slaughtered in that daycare center.
	And it's impossible to say no when someone asks you a question like that, when someone comes to you and says, I need to know the truth about what happened.
	I'm a dad.
	I've got two little boys.
	And so, you know, reading through this, it's something you think about, you know, in this day and age, ever since then, that, you know, whenever you drop them off at school or at daycare, you never really know.
	It is.
	It is impossible to say no, Jack.
	And I was sitting in my writer's studio in Los Angeles when the phone rang and Janie Coverdale, the grandmother, barely introduced herself and just said, we need your help out here.
	Before I knew it, I was on a plane to Oklahoma City as if I was still the news director of America's Most Wanted, but I wasn't.
	It was just me on that plane.
	Micah, so we know the official story, the official story, you know, it's Timothy McVeigh.
	You know, Terry Nichols kind of gets involved, but then pulls out.
	He gets picked up later in Kansas.
	Where was it for you that that official story, and you know, of course, you're hearing this from all the victim families, where was it for you that some cracks started to appear in that official narrative?
	Well, at the very beginning, it was the first year of the investigation.
	Again, long before I became actively involved in the case, I was a news junkie and a witness, a citizen witness like millions of Americans, so shocked about what I saw that day, the agony, the devastation, the injury on April 19, 1995.
	But I had this other perspective, which was that I had been the news director of America's Most Wanted.
	And I had worked hand in glove with the FBI.
	I got as close to the high-profile manhunt stories as any journalist could.
	So I looked at the scene and the early coverage of the bombing and almost immediately red flags went up.
	On the one hand, I was wishing for a minute that I was back at America's Most Wanted and I could push the story.
	But on the other hand, I was seeing cracks in this narrative almost immediately.
	These, the 24 eyewitnesses to the bombing in Oklahoma City that day on the bombing run as Timothy McVeigh delivered and detonated that bomb are absolutely critical because they saw not just Timothy McVeigh, but they saw the man never identified who rode next to him in the bomb truck.
	So that was a big red flag for a story that was heading for this was Lone Wolf Terror by Timothy McVeigh.
	He built the bomb and he delivered it by himself.
	That's what prosecutors would tell the jury, and that's what would bury Timothy McVeigh.
	Meanwhile, top journalists were reporting that the FBI had collected surveillance videotape of that moment, the delivery of the bomb truck.
	They had McVeigh and his never identified accomplice on videotape, which the American public has never been allowed to see.
	And thirdly, in that first sequence of the investigation, a grand juror on the McVeigh grand jury was so distressed by what he saw inside that jury that he went rogue.
	He started leaking to the Daily Oklahoman and eventually wrote a letter to the judge accusing federal prosecutors of rigging that grand jury and specifically because they were hiding the identity of John Doe II.
	So those were enormous cracks in the case.
	And if I could add one more, which is just kind of an incredible X-Files moment, recovery workers brought a severed human leg out of the rubble of the Mira building that was never connected to any of the bombing victims.
	So this was, there was someone else out there.
	And experts would later tell Timothy McVeigh's defense team that in all likelihood, or very possibly, this leg belonged to one of the bombers.
	Again, completely defying the idea of lone wolf terror.
	So this, and this really becomes, I think, the backbone of all of this, where, and, and it just, it, it blows up the official narrative right on its head to say, wait a minute, someone else was in the truck, a John Doe II, who, by the way, and for folks who don't know, this was not Terry Nichols.
	Harry Nichols was not even in Oklahoma City.
	So I know in the public mind, people think, oh, we know who his, we know who his co-conspirator was.
	It was Terry Nichols.
	This is not him.
	So this is someone who was in the truck with him that day, who was originally reported by eyewitnesses.
	There was a sketch.
	There was a manhunt, which, by the way, in your original capacity at America's Most Wanted, that's exactly what America's Most Wanted did is you ran manhunts.
	Absolutely.
	And so here it comes that there's a manhunt that gets closed off and shut down.
	And suddenly that entire narrative goes away.
	And we're coming up here on a break in a minute.
	But let me ask you this, Margaret, in your capacity at America's Most Wanted, did you ever have a situation where such a high-profile manhunt was just suddenly called off?
	Never.
	Absolutely never.
	And it was called off in a way, just quickly, that was so preposterous.
	In mid-June, the FBI came out and announced that, oh, whoops, the mechanic whose description generated this wanted poster at the rental agency where the bomb truck was rented, he must have just made a mistake.
	He must have been talking about two other guys who were coming into the store, into the agency the next day.
	So it was all just a mistake.
	And the eyewitnesses were mistaken.
	And this just never happened.
	Something from the start didn't add up about John Doe II.
	We'll be right back.
	Human Events Daily, Real America's Boys.
	Today, you know, they talk about influencers.
	These are influencers.
	And they're friends of mine, Jack Russovic.
	Where's Jack?
	Joe.
	He's got a great job.
	All right, Jack Rosevic here, we are back live, Human Events Daily, Washington, D.C. We're on with Margaret Roberts, the author of the new book, Blowback, the Untold Story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City Bombing.
	And we've been talking all about John Doe II.
	And John Doe II was this individual, a wanted man, an unidentified man, who had a description, had a police sketch, was posted up all over the country, all of the media.
	Margaret Roberts used to work at America's Most Wanted.
	This is exactly the type of case that they would get into running manhunts, helping the agencies work with the public to identify these people who were on the run.
	And yet suddenly the manhunt gets called off.
	We're told that John Doe II didn't exist.
	It was all a big mistake.
	But Margaret, in the opening chapter of your book, you introduce the readers to someone known as Kenneth Trenadu.
	Who was Kenneth Trenadu and why does he play such a role in this case?
	Yes, Kenneth Trinidad is really the mystery inside the enigma of the Oklahoma City bombing.
	And the grandmother I told you about who summoned me to Oklahoma City 10 years after the bombing.
	And after I sat with her for a lesson in her journey in the bombing and why she believed the government wasn't telling the public the truth, that grandmother sent me to meet Jesse Trinidou, an attorney in Salt Lake City.
	And really all she told me was he knows a lot about this case and he has a theory about who John Doe II was and you need to meet him.
	So I took her word for that and went on to Salt Lake City where attorney Jesse Trinidad met me outside his law office on a cold morning in 2006 and told me a staggering story.
	Jesse's first words were, the FBI murdered my brother.
	And coming from an attorney, a former law professor, a Marine, and a former all-American track star at the University of Southern California, I was just stunned by these words.
	And the story that he told me over the next couple of hours, probably, about his brother is really what riveted me and hooked me on this investigation.
	Kenneth Trinidou was a 44-year-old laborer in southern california he had been in the army He was Jesse's younger brother.
	He enlisted in the Army at the age 17 during the Vietnam War, and he came home hooked on heroin, like a lot of soldiers did.
	And he started, you know, robbing pharmacies and then savings and loans to feed his habit.
	And eventually he was caught.
	He pleaded guilty.
	He went to prison in California, did his time, got out.
	And in June of 1990, but he had a, he crossed swords, had a falling out with his parole officer who refused to allow him to have a beer at the end of the day at end of a hard day's labor as a construction worker, which just didn't sit with Kenneth Trinidad.
	So he just stopped going to his parole officer meetings.
	And nobody was looking for him for years when he crossed the southern border where he was visiting his wife's family in Mexico, coming back into California on June 10, 1995.
	This is now two months after the Oklahoma City bombing.
	He was arrested and jailed for the parole violation awaiting his hearing, which he sat awaiting for two months in California until suddenly and inexplicably he was transferred to Oklahoma City in August of 1995.
	That was four months after the bombing.
	Three days later, Kenneth Trinidou was found tortured and murdered in his suicide-proof solitary confinement cell in the federal facility in Oklahoma City.
	So that was the beginning of Jesse's crusade for justice for Kenneth.
	And I want to show the audience now because we've set this up.
	We've got a picture here of Kenneth Trenadu.
	And I want to show the side by side with John Doe II, who was the subject of this manhunt.
	A dead ringer.
	And as you wrote in the book, even down to the dragon tattoo on his left arm.
	The only problem was Kenneth Trenadu had no connection whatsoever to Oklahoma City, to Timothy McVeigh, to any of the people involved.
	Obviously, as you just mentioned, his spouse was Mexican.
	It's not exactly something you would see from a member of the Aryan Republican Army or a member of a white nationalist group.
	And yet they brought him in and tortured him, allegedly, hoping to get more information out about others that may have been involved in this plot.
	So suddenly this creates a huge problem because, wait a minute, I thought we were told it was a lone wolf.
	Who's this John Doe II?
	And you're picking up lookalikes who I admit are dead ringers.
	But even though they have no connection, this creates a huge issue when they go to take Timothy McVeigh to court.
	And in the next segment, we're going to explain how this death has unraveled a much larger story.
	right back jack soviet real america's voice and jack where is jack where is jack i want to see you Great job, Jack.
	Thank you.
	What a job you do.
	You know, we have an incredible thing.
	We're always talking about the fake news and the bad, but we have guys, and these are the guys that be getting public.
	Jack, we're sober here back, Human Events, Daily Real America's Voice.
	We're talking blowback, the untold story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City bombing.
	And we just got to this huge bombshell in the story in the last segment talking about the FBI picking up this guy or eventually getting into custody of this guy, John Doe, who they believed was John Doe II.
	Kenneth Trenadu, turns out it was a case of mistaken identity.
	And so we're on with the author, Margaret Roberts.
	Margaret, if Kenneth Trenadu, who turns up dead with all of these signs of torture around him, even though we're told it's suicide, if he wasn't John Doe II, then who was?
	Well, a great question, Jack.
	The story begins to unravel, weirdly enough, with a clue that Timothy McVeigh himself on death row sends to Jesse Trinidou in the year 2000.
	And Timothy McVeigh had been, of course, Kenneth's case was a cause celeb in prison, and Timothy McVeigh was fascinated by it.
	And he sent Jesse a clue, a message saying the FBI killed your brother.
	He mistaking him for Richard Lee Guthrie.
	That's the clue to who John Doe II might have been.
	Richard Lee Guthrie was the leader of this Aryan Republican Army terror group that hid out in an eastern Oklahoma enclave known as Elohim City.
	So this is how for Jesse, the Aryan Republican Army became the center of his investigation and then mine as well.
	On death row in exclusive interviews for 23 months leading up to the execution of Timothy McVeigh, he told this subversive story to his death row cellmate, David Hammer.
	And Timothy McVeigh's account to Hammer put the Aryan Republican Army members as his support squad in Oklahoma City on the day of the bombing.
	The question of which of them was John Doe II, it could have been Richard Guthrie.
	It could have been another member of the gang, but McVeigh's clue brought the Aryan Republican Army front and center in Jesse Trinidad's investigation.
	Now, this Elohim City group, what do we know about this group?
	What has come out?
	And do they have any connections to any wider organization?
	Well, they were a way station for the white power movement.
	People came and went through Elohim City, the Aryan Republican Army, which, by the way, carried out 22 bank robberies in the Midwest in the two years before the bombing.
	And their haul was $250,000, twice that in today's money.
	None of it was ever recovered.
	They donated it generously to white power groups.
	So that's who they were.
	And we know about them incredibly because the ATF, in the months before the Oklahoma City bombing, had an informant embedded in Elohim City watching and listening to this conspiracy,
	this plot, warning her handlers that a bombing was coming and that Oklahoma City was on the short list.
	So, and to a reporter that she trusted at the time named JD Cash, she named the names of the Aryan Republican Army as being in the center of the plot to bomb the Mira building in Oklahoma City.
	And so if she's making these reports, wouldn't they presumably hope, hopefully, law enforcement or the ATF will reach out to their FBI compatriots?
	They certainly would have gone forward and stopped it, yet they didn't.
	What happened?
	Well, there's an astounding moment that comes just about a month, two months before the bombing, in which the FBI discovers and the ATF discover that there are actually two undercover operations afoot in Elohim City.
	They both were surveilling this plot.
	And the FBI essentially kicked ATF off its surveillance.
	So the FBI was left and very little is known about the FBI's operation, either before or after that moment.
	But the ATF was soon dispatched and their informant was also kicked off the case.
	And unbelievably, none of what she has been warning and telling her ATF handlers seems to have made it into the mix of what happened next as the plot went forward in Oklahoma City.
	What is PatCon?
	PatCon was the FBI's 1990s very secret infiltration program targeting white supremacists, extreme right-wing radicals.
	And PatCon was surveilling Timothy McVeigh and at least some members of the Aryan Republican Army before the bombing.
	As in my investigation, one of the pivotal turning points comes in 2011 when an FBI whistleblower, a former top spy in PatCon, reaches out to Jesse Trinidad.
	There are a lot of Marines in this story.
	Jesse and John Matthews, the FBI whistleblower, are both Marines.
	And Matthews had been following Jesse's story, his crusade for his brother.
	And he called Jesse and said, I want to come to Salt Lake City and tell you about PATCON.
	So PATCON, and it stands for Patriot Conspiracy, was, it sounds like these are entrapment operations.
	This sounds very, and then to folks who have been watching me for the last couple of years when we talk about things that went on during the Michigan militia with Whitmer, things that went on with January 6th.
	This is starting to sound a little bit familiar to us.
	Absolutely.
	The picture that emerges of the Oklahoma City bombing is very like the Whitmer kidnap plot, as we discovered one potential undercover operative after the next over the period of time we were looking at the bombing and looking for answers.
	And it's one of those things.
	And by the way, I'll just I'll throw out here that the Oklahoma City bombing, it's two years to the day, April 19th, two years to the day after the the end of the Waco siege, the end of the Waco siege.
	So the raid on Waco, then two years to the day of the Oklahoma City bombing.
	And prior to all of that, you have Ruby Ridge.
	So there's all of these elements throughout the 1990s that seem to be feeding one another.
	You have these federal law enforcement operating domestically.
	And then you also have these these various militia groups, but all of which also seem to have direct ties to things like PACCON or things like informants or again and again, the question of where the lines are drawn between, okay, who is a true member of this organization?
	Who is someone who's entrapped?
	Who is someone that's operating under federal authority or federal orders?
	And you even just mentioned that there wasn't just one, but two.
	two federal operations in this one group of Elohim City, all of which were prior to the Oklahoma City bombing, which at the very least, at the very least, provided advanced knowledge that there was a plot to target the federal building in Oklahoma City before the bombing ever took place.
	quick break right back jack for so big human events Jack is a great guy.
	He's written a fantastic book.
	Everybody's talking about it.
	Go get it.
	And he's been my friend right from the beginning of this whole beautiful event.
	And we're going to turn it around and make our country right again.
	Amen.
	All right, Jack Kosovic here, we are back.
	Our final segment with Margaret Roberts, the author of this incredible new book.
	As you can tell, I read it cover to cover because I couldn't put it down.
	It's called Blowback, the Untold Story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City Bombing.
	It starts with a wrongful death of a man who was wrongfully identified, mistakenly identified as a member of the plot to bomb the Oklahoma City building.
	And it deals with government informants over and over, multiple agencies.
	A group called PatCon, the Patriot Conspiracy, a project that was run covertly by the FBI during the 1990s to set up essentially militia groups purportedly being racist and white nationalists and then entrap people in these various schemes.
	And there are whistleblowers that have come forward saying that, hey, this case, Oklahoma City, was one of these entrapment operations that went really, really wrong.
	Margaret Roberts, you're on with us.
	And by the way, everyone, just go buy the book.
	You won't be able to put it down.
	I could do an entire week on this.
	Maybe we will at some point.
	But Margaret, the name of the game right now, the name of the day has been accountability.
	And files have been released on so many things just in the last few weeks.
	RussiaGate, JFK, Martin Luther King.
	Obviously, there's a push for the Epstein files.
	Jailhouse interviews of Ghelane Maxwell are being held right now by the Deputy Attorney General.
	So there's so much pressure here.
	I would love for the Oklahoma City files to also be added to this list of potential releases.
	We've mentioned this FBI surveillance video that purportedly exists, and yet they say they can't find it.
	The PATCON files as well, Patriot Conspiracy.
	What all do you think and what else should people be asking for when it comes to disclosure on this?
	Well, great question, Jack.
	The surveillance videotapes are so critical.
	I mean, just think about it.
	Almost no one even knows this videotape exists.
	And Jesse Trinidad's most recent landmark freedom of information lawsuit seeks to force the disclosure of those videotapes because to bring our mystery full circle,
	the images that the American public has never been allowed to see are going to show who was on the ground with Timothy McVeigh, who certainly was not alone that day, and also might reveal who shot that videotape.
	There is a thought that maybe it was PatCon that shot that videotape.
	John Matthews, the whistleblower who came forward, said PatCon shot everything, videotaped everything.
	So that is one very current thrust of this.

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