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Ladies and gentlemen, we know Christmas is coming, but before Christmas, the gathering of patriots requires your attendance.
Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, myself, Donald Trump Jr., Steve Bannon, Roseanne Barr, Yeah, that's right.
Rob Schneider, James Lindsay, and so many more are going to be at this year's Turning Point America Fest, December 16th to 19th, 2023, Phoenix, Arizona.
You are going to be there.
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Don't come crying to me when this thing is sold out like it does every single This is what happens when the fourth turning meets fifth generation warfare.
A commentator, international social media sensation, and former Navy intelligence veteran.
This is Human Events with your host, Jack Posobiec.
U.S.
National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan is heading to Israel to talk about another ceasefire, getting more hostages released, and expanding humanitarian aid.
The United Nations is demanding a humanitarian ceasefire.
And ABC's Tim Pulliam has more.
I'm going to give you some hard facts.
So here's what entrapment is.
I'm not cherry picking.
If I may finish, Abby, I'm not cherry picking.
To the contrary.
To the contrary.
You know who cherry picked?
You know who cherry picked?
And say that that is what happened on January 6th.
The government cherry picked 12 hours of footage when there was 200 hours of footage.
Cherry picking was the government, not me.
Release the whole thing.
The Supreme Court says it will hear appeals that could upend hundreds of charges stemming from the Capitol riot, including against former President Donald Trump.
Now they're saying, "Let's rush it to the Supreme Court." We gotta rush it, rush it, rush it.
They could have started three years ago.
And now they're saying, we have to go immediately before the Supreme Court.
This thing would have all been over with two years ago.
But they waited, and waited, and waited, and then they saw I was running, and they waited, and then they saw I was hot, and they filed lawsuits.
Mr. Biden's counsel and the White House have both argued that the reason he couldn't come for a deposition was because there wasn't a formal vote for an impeachment inquiry.
Well, that's going to happen in a few hours.
And when that happens, we'll see what their excuse is then.
What they're trying to do is they're trying to kill me, knowing that it will be a pain greater than my father could be able to handle.
From a presidential perspective, is there any possibility that the president would end up pardoning his son?
No.
I just said no.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome aboard today's edition of Human Events Daily, live from Phoenix, Arizona.
We're out here for AmericaFest, which is going to be starting in just a few days time.
Today is December 14th, 2023.
And no, today is not my birthday, even though Wikipedia, for some reason, says that it is.
And I see everybody is going on there to Wikipedia and they're all wishing, which I appreciate, of course.
Thank you guys.
Really appreciate it.
saying it's my birthday, but it's actually a great example of how the left or any left of center organization like Wikipedia, which we know is controlled by the Reddit left, is completely dominated by Reddit neckbeards and atheists.
And they will lie about even the little things, even the little things.
Talking Point Memo had this weird lie the other day in an article saying that I held a secret meeting before the New York gala with Matt Gaetz, Kash Patel, and myself at a hotel offsite from the New York Gala.
Now, we didn't hold that meeting.
If we did, that would have been based, and I'd be more than happy to.
I saw them both at the Gala.
I spoke to them both at the Gala.
But no, we didn't actually hold a meeting there.
I was there with Amanda Milius, Tanya Tay.
Uh, Tanya and Amanda were getting their hair done together.
I was getting my suit ready, getting my tuxedo.
You know, the kind of stuff you do before you're going to an event.
Um, and Tanya and Amanda shared hairdresser.
So, you know, It's not a big conspiracy!
It's, you know, they look at this stuff and it's like, oh, so we're all staying in the same hotel?
Why?
Oh, because it's in Manhattan and it's across the street from Cipriani's, and so we're all staying there.
Oh my god, they're making Trump a dictator!
This is the meeting where it all goes down.
Well, I'll tell you what else is going down.
The Trump indictments are going down.
And the January 6th cases, because the DOJ Merrick Garland has just played a huge mistake.
He's just made a move that might destroy not only the Trump indictments, but actually free the January 6th detainees because it would overturn their convictions and has put everything on hold.
Julie Kelly will be with us later in the show to walk through all of it.
But basically it comes down to whether or not President Trump And the January 6th protesters were attempting to obstruct Congress.
Whether or not they were planning to obstruct Congress, or their actions constituted obstruction.
It didn't!
None of them intended to, there was no conspiracy to, and yet Jack Smith, the insane and deranged individual who is running this inquisition for Merrick Garland, has put this all together.
So here's the thing.
Some of those January 6th defendants actually got the obstruction charge taken off when it came to their individual cases.
But Merrick Garland and the DOJ said, no, that's not good enough.
We need that obstruction charge in because we need it to go after Trump.
So they appealed it to the next level.
And then at the next level, they put it back.
So now it goes to the Supreme Court.
And because it's going to the Supreme Court, The Supreme Court that's now stacked because it's the Trump Court of actual originalist jurists, judges who are actually going to look at the intent of our founding fathers and the framers when they wrote the thing in the first place.
They're going to look at this thing, and Jack Smith is going to get laughed out of court, and all the never-Trumpers who lined up behind DeSantis because they said that Trump is going to be convicted and he can never be president.
It's over.
It's all over for you.
It's all over.
So I'll tell you right now, the only option for you left, bend the knee, bend the knee, and maybe we'll find a place for you.
Douglas Mackie is next.
Ladies and gentlemen, one of the best ways that you can support us here at Human Events and the work that we do is subscribing to us on our Rumble channel.
Make sure you're subscribed, you hit the notifications so you'll never miss a clip, you'll never miss a new live episode, and we're putting them out every single day of the week.
In the hood, I rolled with Bloods, and them boys had a saying.
You can't be listening to all that slappy-whack-trim-mat-a-zall-it's-a-bam-ship, nippy-bam-bam, like Human Events with Jack Posobiec.
Alright, Jack Posobiec back here, live, Human Events Daily.
We're on location, Phoenix, Arizona, getting ready for AmericaFest.
And folks, I know, there's a lot to be nervous about out there.
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So very excited to bring in our next guest.
It's the first time we've had him on the show.
Uh, but I, I guess you could say I've, I've known him through Twitter for a bit of a minute now.
He's someone that we've certainly talked about.
We've covered front and center because his case and his story are front and center to everything that's going on in our Republic from 2016 all the way to today, how we've lost our freedoms, we've lost our rights as Americans.
And by the way, the story of someone who has lost so much but never been willing to back down and always been willing to fight back.
Ladies and gentlemen, the great Douglas Mackey, the most dangerous meme lord in the entire world, joins us here, Human Events Daily.
Doug, how you doing, man?
How you doing?
Great to be here.
Thanks for having me.
If you could give us a legal update.
So dramatic turn of events.
You at one point thought that you were going to be reporting in just a couple of weeks, if I remember correctly, was right around the Iowa caucuses to federal prison, just like Owen Schroeder, who got out for, uh, in about 47 days, you were facing seven months, but that has now been lifted.
Walk us through what you were facing and walk us through what happened.
Yeah.
Thanks Jack for having me.
So yeah, I was sentenced to seven months in federal prison in my case.
Uh, For posting a meme, essentially, and we moved to be released on bond pending appeal.
Back during the sentencing, that request was denied by the District Court judge.
We went to the Second Circuit Court and appealed, and they overturned the decision, so I was granted bond pending appeal, so I'm very grateful for that decision.
Basically, the judges in the Second Circuit Court ruled that we have a close or debatable Well, and so that means, and the real good news for all of this is that you can be home, you were already going to be home for the Christmas holidays, for New Year's, now you're home indefinitely while this appeal stays out.
If we have to go up higher, we have to go to the Supreme Court.
Well, and so that means, and the real good news for all of this is that you can be home, you were already going to be home for the Christmas holidays, for New Year's.
Now you're home indefinitely while this appeal stays out.
This, by the way, you know, for folks that have been tracking, this is the same situation that happened with Steve Bannon, except in Bannon's case, it was originally ruled that even though he was sentenced to four months for contempt of Congress, even though Hunter Biden, by the way, who ditched on Congress yesterday, they haven't even voted to hold him in contempt.
Thanks, House Republicans, by the way.
You want to get on that, maybe do your jobs.
But in Bannon's case, the judge, and I sat through his trial in D.C., the judge allowed him to stay out on appeal while his appeal was appending throughout.
So that's currently why he has been able to continue doing his show, continue doing War Room.
Your judge didn't do that, though.
You, you know, I want to be very clear.
This was not like a violent crime.
This was not some, you're not some career criminal.
You're not some dangerous threat.
But maybe you are a dangerous threat, in a sense, to certain quarters of the of the country in a political sense.
Do you think that that was the overtone of why they threw the book at you so hard and why they gave you something like this, a seven-month prison sentence for a crime that, by the way, has never been charged before in terms of someone going to jail for a meme?
Let me just say I have my suspicions.
This case does seem to be political.
There are thousands of people spreading these kind of jokes or satirical tweets or even just trying to get people riled up by sharing these kind of election jokes.
And And no one else is being prosecuted.
And this is unprecedented.
Reuters and The New York Times both reported that this is a novel case, that there was great debate within the Justice Department to even bring this case.
And it wasn't until after Biden won the election in 2020 That they decided to press forward with this case once they got rid of the Trump people in the judicial department.
So, seven days after Biden was inaugurated, there was a knock on my door.
Eight to ten law enforcement agents.
I had no idea what I was being arrested for.
Only, I only found out later when they took me out of leg irons at the federal courthouse and gave me the criminal complaint.
And then they're saying, you're being charged because you posted these memes four years ago.
So it was really unbelievable.
And it was really surprising that we weren't granted bond, to be quite honest with you.
But this decision by the Appeals Court just shows that this case is winnable.
We can win this case.
I can win this case.
But I can't do it by myself.
I need everybody to jump in here on the appeal.
Go to memedefensefund.com and donate to this appeal because it's very expensive in the federal criminal court.
I have excellent attorneys.
And this case is not even just about me.
This case is about the American people because this case is about our liberties.
This case is about a chilling effect on free speech where people are not going to share their thoughts or even joke around with their friends if they think that eight to ten law enforcement agents are going to knock on their door four years later.
And not only that, this case is also, this statue is being used against President Trump.
So this case is very important.
It's about abuse of the statue.
It's about political persecution, so everybody go to MemeDefenseFund.com and pitch in to fund this appeal, please.
You must go to MemeDefenseFund.com.
MemeDefenseFund.com.
And it's about Doug, but it's not just about him, because it's about everyone's right to freedom of speech and to be free of persecution.
They did this to him.
Who's to say they can't do this to you tomorrow?
Because they've set a precedent.
They are trying to get a precedent on the books that people can be criminally prosecuted for this.
And we know this is part of what I've called the three-tier system of justice in this country, where Trump and Trump supporters face one tier that is higher than everyone else, where they will twist laws around, just like the NKVD used to do during the Soviet Union, in order to put us in leg irons.
And as you say, Actually, and as people go to MemeDefenseFund.com, I know people are going there right now, signing up for this.
But, Doug, walk me through that again, because you said 8 to 10 federal agents showed up to your family home?
Right, well, it was 8 to 10 law enforcement agents.
It was actually 4 FBI agents, plus the local law enforcement.
I mean, they just, you know, those guys are great, local law enforcement, but they just, they go along with the FBI on these kind of arrests.
But 8 to 10 law enforcement agents, We have a warrant for your arrest.
I said, for what?
I had no idea what it was for.
They wouldn't tell me.
They just put me in handcuffs, put me in the in the SUV and drove me away to federal court.
And I had to sit in a holding cell waiting for my arraignment because of COVID delays.
So I put my mask on and go sit in front of a camera to talk to the judge on Skype with a federal defender.
So it was quite an experience.
But something I want to point out, too, is this case I was arrested for something that happened in 2016, just four years later, from the Twitter files.
An FBI agent that probably a lot of your viewers are familiar with, Elvis Chan, was communicating with Twitter.
They were going to serve process on everybody who made a joke about the election.
So you think you have a right to privacy in this country?
If you make a joke about the election, they're gonna serve process on you.
They're gonna subpoena you.
They're gonna dig through all your tweets, all your direct messages, all your text messages, They're going to dig up all your finances to see and try to determine your intent, to see if you were joking or if you were trying to really trick people out of voting.
That's extremely dangerous for this country.
We can't have it, to be honest with you.
Well, and that's exactly it.
So they've already decided, and this is, by the way, this is the same guy who went to Twitter and had them, I asked Elon Musk about this recently, and about, he was the guy who went to Twitter in 2020, got them to censor the Hunter Biden tapes, or the Hunter Biden laptop, And you're saying that he was also focused on subpoenaing everybody who was using Twitter, and this is why they were going after Trump's account.
We know Jack Smith has already done this, to go after everyone who followed, liked, or retweeted a Trump post, and then potentially going through all of this.
So that's how you get your list of Trump supporters.
Then you whittle that down to all of their posts about the 2016 election, and then they go in, what did you mean by this post?
Why did you word it this way?
What was your intent?
How did you?
Had a little bit of experience with that.
Nowhere near your level.
But just real quick, we have one minute before the break.
I want to hold you over.
Before they knocked on your door, alright?
You're sitting there, you're living your life.
It's been years in the past.
What went through your mind when that knock on the door came and you heard, law enforcement, we have a warrant?
Well, to be honest with you, there's a great scholar who wrote a book called Three Felonies a Day about the federal government coming after you if they want to.
And the way that they're able to abuse these statutes to make the arrests they want.
So on the one hand, it's unbelievable.
But on the other hand, you think they could dig up things and put together prosecutions in extremely creative ways.
So even if you're a completely law abiding citizen who doesn't do anything wrong, well, that doesn't really matter.
I was almost not even surprised that it was happening to me in this country.
Seven days after Biden was inaugurated.
That's kind of a sad state.
That's kind of a sad commentary on where we're at as a country.
And people have to remember that when Biden was inaugurated, all of Washington, D.C.
was occupied under military occupation.
The National Guard, 25,000 troops, the fencing that went up, the razor wire around the Capitol.
I remember this.
They wouldn't show it on the news.
I showed it.
I got in trouble for filming.
You talk about influences.
These are influences.
around our Capitol.
Nobody actually attended Biden's inauguration.
It was the first president in years that was inaugurated in private like this, rather than having a public situation.
Douglas Mackey is our guest.
He's walking through the rise of the regime.
You talk about influences.
These are influences.
And they're friends of mine.
Jack Osovic.
Where's Jack?
Jack.
He's got a great job.
All right.
Jack Osovic back here live.
Human Events Daily.
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We're continuing our interview with Douglas Mackey, the most dangerous meme lord in America, apparently, and we're all going to memedefensefund.com.
It is incumbent upon you.
Go to memedefensefund.com right now and sign up, not just to defend Doug, But to defend the right to meme, the right for freedom of speech and freedom of expression in our country, because it is currently the regime that is cracking down on that.
And this is something that's kind of, kind of been bigger.
So Doug, you know, I, you know, I was around there on Twitter in 2016 with you, with a lot of people, you know, Cernovich, et cetera, ALX, you know, all these names.
A lot of us are kind of still around on Twitter.
Other of us got banned.
You got banned originally.
Then Twitter goes from where it was in 2016, where it was totally free, to this interregnum period of just dark censorship, mass censorship, really pushed by Vijaya, who was empowered by Jack Dorsey.
And now Elon Musk comes in, and Elon Musk actually said to me, when I interviewed him a couple of days ago, that if the FBI came to him and asked him to censor content that he considered legal content, that he'd rather go to prison himself Great question.
take anything down.
So a huge sea change.
My question for you, and as we're defending memes, we're going to memedefensefund.com, what is it about the power of a meme and the power of the distribution method for people being able to share these things freely that poses such a threat to the people in power? - Great question. what is it about the power of a meme and So when we're talking about memes, really what we're talking about is the democratization of political cartoons.
Each meme is just a political cartoon, essentially.
Now, imagine how difficult it would be back in the day to share your own political cartoons.
It would be borderline impossible unless you're a professional.
You would have to, you know, draw it up, make copies of it, pass it out.
I guess you could also say pamphleteering back in the day.
And also in communist countries, they had same as that.
Thomas Paine, Common Sense.
Exactly, exactly.
And in communist countries, underground literature and copying and sharing of underground literature is the same as that.
So memes are only as powerful as the message that they convey.
And they're essentially just political cartoons.
And they ridicule, in a lot of cases, powerful people.
That is why they hate these memes.
Because it used to be, to ridicule powerful people, you'd have to be a professional, getting your political cartoons into the newspaper.
Or you'd have to be pamphleteering, which, you know, there's limited spread of that.
So this is essentially just democratization where you can spread your own memes, your own political cartoons for free.
Not only that, it's very easy to make your own if you want, and the best rise to the top.
So this is why it's so dangerous to the powers that be.
Exactly right, because you're taking dissent, you're taking a political expression, you're using the power of humor, and you're using the distribution networks of social media to get that out.
And it's so incredible that you mentioned that because what you just said there about pamphleteering.
So Thomas Paine, he writes, Common sense in, you know, the 1770s, this goes viral, but it was only able to go viral because of the publishing presses and the printing presses, Ben Franklin in Boston and Philadelphia, and then others that they were able to get this out.
And then people just sharing it out in taverns and stuff like this.
Um, so it's the distribution network plus the ability of someone to say something, what you just said in the communist countries in Russia, samizdat in Russian literally is translated as the word self Self-publication in Samizdat is actually synonymous with political dissent and these political dissent dissident writings.
The ability that Twitter gave us in 2016 to disintermediate the mainstream lies, the same mainstream lies that in Soviet Russia were referred to as Pravda, meaning the truth.
This is how bad things got, but because social media gave us the same tools that all of them did, the same way the printing press gave the Patriots of 1776 that actually took this country and instituted this country in the first place, it really, to me, draws a direct parallel to between what you were doing and really what everybody's doing when we're posting memes and we're getting the narrative out there.
And I guess I would have to ask you, What do you think about, so you know, obviously you were doing that under Twitter 1.0, then we had sort of Twitter Dark, now we have Elon's X. What are your views on the moves that Elon has taken in terms of freedom of speech when it comes to X?
I think it's very encouraging.
If you're an American, you believe in First Amendment and freedom of expression.
It's very encouraging to have an open platform where sort of the best ideas can rise to the top.
And I like what he's done with the fact-checking as well, the sort of community notes, distributed, democratized fact-checking that people can disagree with, they can fight amongst themselves over what they think is true.
That is the spirit of America.
We don't have a top-down Ministry of Truth style information system.
And we don't want that, quite frankly.
But that is what's been going on in this country the last couple of years, where you have government and non-governmental organizations Attempting to create a sort of third party ministry of truth and with an arm's length away from the federal government where they can say, well, you know, Biden's not exactly quite telling us what to do.
So we're not actually a ministry of truth.
So this is the spirit of America.
And this is what the courts have always ruled that the process of democracy is rough.
It is messy.
And the government's job is not to step in and say, this is true.
This is false.
That's just not what we do in America.
And I think it's really dangerous.
And I'm hoping that the courts and I'm encouraged that the courts are probably going to step in here and say, this is not America.
So let's see what happens.
I'm very encouraged so far by the second circuit court's decision, which by the way, was issued by a panel of judges that were appointed by all kinds of different presidents.
Obama, Biden, also President Trump.
So this is a very encouraging step.
And look, we have separation of powers for a reason.
I think that the courts need to step in.
And if they don't, that's going to be sort of a sign that we're, we've crossed the Rubicon.
Well, I think, and that's, we're going to be talking about when Julie Kelly joins us in a minute here, because this is where finally some of these cases on from January 6th, the Trump case is going up to the Supreme Court.
And you're finally going to see the Supreme Court, I believe, and I think a lot of people are now kind of reading it this way.
A lot of legal experts and analysts are saying this is the Supreme Court's going to step in and really pump the brakes.
Honestly, kind of slapped down Merrick Garland and Jack Smith on all of this.
And by the way, you know, just and I'll say this, right, because, you know, I remember the, you know, text your vote meme when it first came out.
I remember the draft our daughters.
I posted draft our daughters like a million times, I'm sure, in 2016.
So, you know, come at me.
But what people don't understand is the reason that text your vote became satirical.
The satire here is that Democrats were the ones that were pushing even back in 2016 for stripping all integrity from the voting process, stripping all integrity from our elections.
That's what you were making fun of.
The fact that they were switching around all of our election processes.
And that's exactly what you actually predicted.
So Douglas Mackey actually predicted What would happen in 2020 when they took away, remember all of these plans were in place long before COVID.
It was HR1 and they used COVID to implement this when it came to the mail-in ballots, universal mail-in ballots, ballot drop boxes all over the place.
It was absurd.
for these mules to run around and collect them.
That's essentially the true element of your meme was the fact that the Democrats were actually pushing in this direction.
And what you were doing as, you know, Rush Limbaugh used to say this, you were illustrating absurdity by being absurd.
It's just the most basic fundamental tenet of satire.
It was absurd.
That's a very important element, what you're saying.
And that's lost on a lot of people, which actually brings me to an important element of this prosecution, which is venue.
This case was brought in the Eastern District of New York, which is Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island, and Long Island, even though nobody that they called a co-conspirator, including myself, had any connection to the Eastern District of New York.
So essentially what they're doing is saying, you posted a meme elsewhere, or you conspired with others, that is what they allege, to post a meme elsewhere.
We can, Drag you to any venue in the country.
We can drag you to Wyoming.
We can drag you to the most conservative state.
We can drag you to San Francisco if we want, and put you on trial before 12 jurors, and they're going to decide whether or not you intended to trick people, or whether this was commentary, whether this was satirical, or even whether this was just sort of a provocation to get people riled up, to sort of provoke the Democrats Because when Democrats look at this meme, they actually think that, oh, our voters would actually fall for this.
The funny thing is, at least from my perspective, I never would have expected anybody to fall for that.
And that's exactly what I testified at trial.
So part of this appeal that is almost as important as the First Amendment is venue, which is directly in the Constitution, because back during the revolution, they were kidnapping people and bringing them to England and putting them on trial.
We're just about out of time here, and they brought you, by the way, just blocks away from the Hillary Clinton campaign headquarters, where Douglas Mackey, they're trying to make him a political prisoner.
He's certainly a political dissident.
Last time, man, Merry Christmas.
We are praying for you constantly.
We're praying for your family.
We're praying for everything that's going on.
Tell us one more time what that website is.
Merry Christmas, Jack.
Memedefensefund.com.
And by the way, Elon Musk, it's tax-deductible.
It's tax-deductible, Elon.
Get in there, buddy.
We know nobody likes paying taxes.
Get in there.
I'll have to talk to my accountant about that as well.
Julie Kelly joins us around the break.
Where's Jack?
Where's Jack?
Where is he?
Jack, I want to see you.
Great job, Jack.
Thank you.
What a job you do.
You know, we have an incredible thing.
We're always talking about the fake news and the bad, but we have guys, and these are the guys should be getting Pulitzer's.
All right, Jack Posobiec, we are back.
We are here, Phoenix, Arizona, Live Human Events Daily.
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So, We have got Julie Kelly on here.
Now, Julie, you've been running around telling us that everything's on hold because the obstruction charge is going up, and they've done this in a case that doesn't directly involve Trump, but it actually affects all of these cases because the vast majority of the Jan 6 defendants, as well as, in some cases, prisoners already, and the president himself, have all been charged with obstruction or conspiracy to commit obstruction.
So if the Supreme Court knocks this down, This throws a monkey wrench into all of it, into absolutely all of it.
And yet I was listening to, I'm not going to name names, but I was listening to a Never Trumper podcast yesterday and they started saying that, oh, no, this is all hype.
It's all bluster.
Supreme Court's not going to do that.
Trump's still going to jail.
The Jan Sixers are going to stay in jail.
So what's your response to that, Julie?
Well, it's interesting because the Never Trumpers have intentionally really ignored The January six issue and the holding of political prisoners.
So I'm not sure who that individual is, but I don't see any real detailed coverage, you know, that people like you and I are performing.
Um, so not sure who that is, but to that person or anyone believing that this March 4th trial date in Washington against Donald Trump for the events of January six.
Is going to stick.
I simply point them to Judge Tanya Chutkin's order that was issued yesterday where she confirmed that because the immunity issue is on appeal right now, all of the pretrial deadlines now are suspended.
The entire pretrial calendar leading up to this trial that's now supposed to be three and a half months away or two and a half months away now is all suspended.
So I'm not sure how even if you The Supreme Court waved a magic wand or the D.C.
Appellate Court did.
Somehow the immunity issue, a very complicated issue never before addressed by the Supreme Court, is resolved in time.
They still have all of these deadlines outstanding.
So whatever delay that there is, they're going to have to keep backing that up.
So I think even you saw legal experts on the left admit that the March 4th trial date in addition to Judge Chutkin and now the Supreme Court taking up the 1512 C2 count, which represents half of Jack Smith's criminal indictment.
And that's the obstruction count, right?
That's the obstruction of an official proceeding count, yes.
So there are a lot of things in Jack on Jack Smith's plate right now.
And his work is about to be reviewed by the Supreme Court.
Is that basically what's going on?
His work and the judge's work and all the prosecutors that you have been coming on this show and blasting for almost three years now is now about to finally face a real review at the Supreme Court.
It is.
And it won't, this review won't really be related to Jack Smith's indictment per se.
But it will relate to DOJ's interpretation, intentionally misinterpreting the language in this statute that was passed in 2002 in the Sarbanes-Oxley Act in the post-Enron Arthur Anderson accounting scandal.
This has to do with tampering with evidence or witnesses.
But what this DOJ has done is weaponized it, intentionally misapplied the language there to make people who were in the Capitol, at the Capitol, allegedly disrupt Or were responsible for the joint session, then recessing that day, that somehow the joint session of Congress that day to look at the electoral college count, that that's an official proceeding.
Well, the intention of the statute related to criminal investigations by Congress.
That was not an investigation, as we know.
So the justices will have to sort out a couple of issues.
The interpretation, the definition of official proceeding, whether what happened on January 6th, that rises to it.
And that's key to Jack Smith's indictment because he is accusing Donald Trump of obstructing that official proceeding.
Precisely.
And so Julie, what I want to, right.
So it's all interconnected, I guess is what I'm saying.
So what I'd like to do, and I heard you do this earlier and walk us through a little bit, and we have a couple of minutes before the break, walk us through how it actually was these Separate Gen 6 defendants that brought us up to this and decisions that were made at the lower court, but then also a huge mistake really that was made by Merrick Garland in appealing this to the Supreme Court.
Right.
So 15 judges on the district court in Washington have upheld this 1512c2.
There have been dozens of motions to dismiss it in a lot of cases and every judge, except for one, upheld the count.
The one judge who dismissed the count against these three defendants is Judge Carl Nichols, a Trump-appointed judge.
So he dismissed the count.
Department of Justice Matthew Graves, the U.S.
Attorney, DC U.S.
Attorney, went back, asked him to reconsider.
He again dismissed the count.
That's when the Department of Justice appealed Judge Nichols dropping that charge in these three cases.
So it's really the Department of Justice's responsibility or they're culpable for bringing this to the Supreme Court because they demanded this appeal.
The appeal ruling that came down in April, a three judge panel, that's usually how it goes.
That ruling was what one judge called splintered and really resulted in three different opinions as to the applicability of 1512 C2.
So that's how then one of these defendants then brought it to the Supreme Court.
But it was DOJ appealing it, not the defendants appealing it, that got us where we are.
So a little, little delicious slice of karma there for DOJ.
Well, I love that, and because what it really is, what it represents, Julie, is that even after so many people they've thrown the book at, that they couldn't see the writing on the wall as to what would happen if they appealed this to the Supreme Court, because they knew that the court now actually is backstopped by originalist judges who actually care about our tradition, our history, our text.
And want to know why the founders wrote the Constitution the way they did, why our statutes are written and why they are.
It's not some game anymore where they can twist words to mean whatever they want.
Living Constitution, living statutes.
No, all that's out of the window at the Supreme Court.
And they've made ruling after ruling in terms of this.
That it feels to me as though they did this out of just absolute petty resentment Well, I think too, they've had their eye on using this statute against Donald Trump since the very beginning.
away on these charges.
That's part of it.
But I think another part of it, maybe you know better than me, another part of it was that they knew that if this was able to stand, that it would throw some of these cases potentially into jeopardy.
So maybe they had no choice.
Well, I think too, they've had their eye on using this statute against Donald Trump since the very beginning.
Keep in mind, Jack, this statute was mentioned in the Mueller report This took up half of the Mueller report.
It was this whole second half of the report.
That's exactly right.
This is the obstruction statute that Andrew Weissman wanted the Department of Justice to charge Trump with for allegedly obstructing the investigation into phony Russia collusion.
So they have wanted, they've been dying to get this charge against Trump.
So they were going to have, you know, now... Weisman's been up there on MSNBC every day for five years, you know, cheerleading for this.
That's right.
And so he finally got what he wanted.
And Jack Smith brought the 1512c2 and another count, 1512k, conspiring to obstruct an official proceeding.
So that's how those two counts are related to now this Supreme Court review.
But, you know, now that it's up in the air, what does Jack Smith do next?
Does he drop those two charges and then supersede with other charges like seditious conspiracy?
So he's got a couple moves that he's going to have to make, none very appealing at this stage.
But considering both the immunity issue and now the 1512c2, his entire indictment really is at risk.
The entire indictment is currently at risk.
The Never Trumpers are in shambles!
They're coping and seething!
They're melting down as they're stuffing their faces with cookies and Christmas creams.
But no, folks, no.
The only cream is the one that rises to the top.
The only cream is the one that rises to the top.
We're here in Phoenix, Arizona.
We're getting ready for AmericaFest, the largest gathering of patriots in the country.
It takes place this weekend in Phoenix.
And really, I'll tell you what it is.
I tweeted this this morning.
Charlie won't say it, but I will.
Charlie's not just building an event out here at AmericaFest.
We're putting forward the great replacement of the GOP establishment.
The great neocon replacement, you might call it.
Now, Julie Kelly, you were telling us during the break that, and you gave us this warning, the Democrats are melting down right now.
They're in complete meltdown mode.
Heads are exploding on Capitol Hill over this.
They're actually now demanding that Clarence Thomas recuse himself from this decision.
Walk us through this.
Right.
So you already heard some Democrats and some in the media Again, call for Clarence Thomas to recuse himself in any, um, rulings or arguments related to the events of January 6th.
I believe that he already did recuse himself.
I believe perhaps in the John Eastman matter.
Uh, so you're going to see those calls being amplified because they believe that of course he will be a certain vote to number one, overturn DOJ's use of 1512 C2.
But also his interpretation or his opinion about whether or not Donald Trump is entitled to presidential immunity and whether his impeachment for January 6th really is the equivalent of a criminal prosecution or a conviction already.
Of course, he was acquitted by the Senate.
But that's one argument his attorneys are making, is that he was already really charged and tried by the House for January 6th.
So they're going to be scrambling to do whatever they can to number one, preserve the 1512 C2, the interpretation of that, and then, of course, deny that President Trump has presidential immunity.
But Jack, don't forget, we still have the classified documents trial.
That trial is scheduled for May 20th.
This is another reason why Jack Smith and Judge Chutkan are panicking and the Democrats.
If the March 4th trial date is moved back, And Judge Cannon in Florida overseeing the classified documents case.
She is the polar opposite of Judge Chutkin, and she has called DOJ to task numerous times for misleading the court about what was involved in that case.
She already suspended last month all that, that entire pretrial calendar because she argued to Jack Smith's team The March 4th trial date could very potentially run up against the May 20th trial date.
And what do we do then?
And Jay Brett, the chief prosecutor, had no answer, of course, but he did admit that there was a possibility they could overlap.
And she said, well, I'm suspending all the pretrial deadlines.
You're to come back on March 1st and give me an update about what's happening in the D.C.
trial.
Well, I, for one, cannot wait to go to that hearing, just like I was in the last hearing with her, to see how Jay Barrett explains to Judge Cannon why that March 4th trial date very likely has been moved back.
And that then bounces a classified documents case, possibly almost for sure, till after the election or even into 2025.
Well, that's really what this all comes down to here.
That's the whole ballgame.
Because if these cases, because of these pretrial motions, are then delayed, because of these, and now because of these decisions that we're all waiting on by the Supreme Court, people have to understand, no one has ever talked about the swift justice of the appeals process, or certainly the Supreme Court process in the United States, that if these get pushed back,
Until after the election, the real, you know, the real $81 million question is, will any of these cases, at least the ones at the federal level, think that there's anyone that might still be in the cards here?
You broke up a little bit there, Jack.
I didn't hear your question.
I'm sorry.
Okay.
Do you think that, do you think that it's possible that all the cases at the federal level will be held after the election at this point, if these things continue to drag on?
I think it looks more possible than it did a week ago.
Simply because now the trial has been, the pretrial schedule has been suspended in Washington.
Even if they try to catch up quickly, the appellate court, because remember, Jack Smith asked the Supreme Court to leapfrog over the appellate court.
But he also covered his bases and asked the appellate court in Washington to expedite the consideration of Trump's appeal.
So he's got kind of uncertainty in both.
But the appellate court has already said, OK, we're setting initial schedule.
Briefs are due the end of this month and then after the 1st of January.
They haven't even set an oral argument for this.
After an oral argument, it could be weeks or months before the appellate court comes down with the decision.
Of course, you've got two Biden appointees and one Bush appointee on that three judge panel.
So the appellate court is staffed with Democrats and you see this in all of the panels.
But there's no way this matter, this very complicated and again, a matter with long term future consequences for this country.
If either if the Supreme Court eventually decides that presidents are not immune from criminal prosecution, Even if they've been impeached for the very same matter, this is where we're going to go as a country.
Whatever president loses to a president of the opposite party, that president's Department of Justice will open a criminal investigation.
This is going to be the cycle that we will see in America that we've seen in third world banana republics for, of course, ever.
And that's where we will be, unfortunately.
So that's why shame on Jack Smith for asking for a quick ruling on this for political reasons only to keep the March 4th trial date, convict Donald Trump and get him in jail this summer.
He doesn't care about the long term consequences of this country in a ruling like that.
He only cares because he's a Democratic Party mercenary and always has been, is executing his marching orders to get Donald Trump before a Democratic jury, before a Democratic judge, A quick conviction on bogus charges and in jail this summer.
He tried to railroad Trump.
He tried to railroad American patriots.
He's railroaded numerous dissidents that are now sitting in prison, and his case is the one that's actually coming off the rails.
Julie Kelly, it has to be said.
This day may not have come if it was not for your work, for your time, your effort, your passion, and all of the countless hours and late nights that you've spent digging into this on the phone with sources.
Tell us, where can people go to follow your information?
And I hope that you guys are taking a little bit of time this Christmas to have a Merry Christmas with your family.
You too, Jack.
Thanks so much.
Declassified with Julie Kelly.
That's where people can find all my work.
Merry Christmas to you and your beautiful family, Jack.
See you soon.
Thank you.
God bless you.
Look, folks, you need to be celebrating Christmas.
You need to be Christmas maxing.
You need to be absolutely incorrigible.
Walk up to people, say, Merry Christmas.
Hey, buddy, Merry Christmas.
Hey, you, across the street, Merry Christmas, buddy.
