Episode 128. Disappearance of Madeleine McCann Live with Ken(RobR6)
CONTACT US: Email: paranaughtica@gmail.com Twitter: @paranaughtica Facebook: The Paranaughtica PodcastContact Cricket: Website: www.theindividuale.com Twitter: @Individualethe Welcome.Today, we are diving into the on-going 18 year saga of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Joining us is Ken, a.k.a ‘Rob6’ who has researched the case since the very start. This is also our first ‘live stream’.....If you’re unfamiliar with Madeleine McCann, or her parents – Kate Healey (McCann) and Gerry McCann, or the ‘Tapas 7’, ...then you are in for a disturbing episode. Madeleine disappeared from the families vacation rental while her parents and their friends (the Tapas 7) were dining at the Tapas restaurant at the resort they were staying....roughly 150 yards away.Madeleine and her two siblings were left alone in the apartment when she disappeared.To some, they believe that the parents were intimately involved in her disappearance.To others, they had nothing to do with their missing child and believe that ‘someone’ had kidnapped her.The ‘only’ suspect in the case, now, is a German man named Christian Brueckner who is currently in prison on other charges. He is set to be released this September (2025) and has not been charged in the childs disappearance......yet.The authorities are sure that Christian is their man but have refrained from charging him despite having their eye on him for a number of years.With that said, let’s see what Ken, a.k.a. ‘Rob6’, has to say.To check out a small batch of Coops’ music, go to this this link — https://on.soundcloud.com/Q1XRaY9WSpzawV9r7 CHECK YOUR LOCAL WATER TREATMENT LEVELS: EWG Tap Water Database PATREON:http://tiny.cc/tule001 ***If you’d like to help out with a donation and you’re currently listening on Spotify, you can simply scroll down on my page and you’ll see a button to help us out with either a one-time donation or you can set up a monthly recurring donation. ko-fi.com/paranaughticapodcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
So, this is a live stream of the Madeline McCann Disappearance from 2007.
We are here with Ken.
And, Ken, how are you doing today?
I'm good.
Thank you for joining us here.
Obviously, there's been a lot of contention between you and a lot of McCann.
Followers.
I don't know what that's about.
I don't really care what that's about.
Spirited debate.
I've been entertained by the back and forth.
I think what it is, is they don't want the other narrative to get any airtime.
And it hasn't had any airtime.
This is probably the first podcast where someone like me, who is speaking for the abduction, has had a chance to speak on.
And that's what they don't want.
That's what they don't want.
So we'll see how we go.
We'll see how it goes.
Well, we tend to present a lot of very unique perspectives here, so we do.
A lot of unpopular ones.
Yeah, unpopular ones that get us in trouble.
Yeah, yeah.
So, I mean, I don't want to get this too fluffy here, but for the people who don't know about the Madeline McCann disappearance, I'll just give a little background before we get started here.
Madeline Fluffy.
Yeah, Madeline Beth McCann, born May 12, 2003, was a three-year-old British girl from Leicestershire, England.
Is that how you pronounce it?
Leicestershire?
Sounds right.
Everyone's mad at me for doing this.
Lancaster?
No, it's some weird...
Is it Lancaster?
L-E-I-C-E-S.
Oh, Leicester.
Leicestershire?
Leicestershire.
Leicestershire.
Thank you.
I was embarrassing myself.
Yeah, absolutely.
So on April 28, 2007, Madeline, her parents, Kate and Jerry McCann, both doctors, and her two-year-old twin siblings, Sean and Emily, arrived at the Ocean Club Resort in Praia de Luz, Algarve, Portugal, for a week-long holiday.
They were joined by seven family members and their five children, and they were collectively known as the Tapas Seven because that's the restaurant they were dining at when all of this went down.
The McCann stayed in apartment 5A, a ground floor unit in the Waterside Village Gardens, part of the Ocean Club Resort, and the apartment had a front door near the children's bedroom and patio doors at the rear, which the McCann said they used during the holiday.
Now, the group, the Tapas Seven, said they were dining at the resort, the Tapas Restaurant, which was approximately 120 yards from the apartment, and I've heard a lot of discrepancies with that distance.
But they were leaving their children asleep at the apartment, and they would go back to the restaurant, and they were supposed to be checking on the—well, they said they were checking on the children, particularly the McCanns, every 15 minutes, and each member of this party would go and check.
Fifteen minutes later, the next member would go and check, and the cycle continues.
But obviously, at some point, well, Madeline just was missing.
So that's just a quick background on that.
So, Ken, how did you get involved in this case and how did we get to this point?
Okay, yeah.
I think like most people, when I heard about the case, it was a very unusual case.
There's not only been two children going missing abroad like that.
There's Ben Needham who went...
Before Maddie.
And Maddie went in 2007.
It was just, it was such an unusual thing to happen.
And obviously, in the days of the internet, then there were words flying around, everyone having their own view, etc.
getting involved.
And it was just, it became, what would happen then was, every...
Every day, there'd be little groups on, not Twitter, but perhaps on different forums, and they'd be arguing all day long.
And for some people, it got a bit of an obsession, really.
It got a bit of an obsession with me, so much so that one night, I was there at one o 'clock in the morning, still arguing, and my wife just walked into the room with a pair of scissors and cut the mouse cable and went back to bed.
It really is something that's grabbed the attention of people and people have discussed it.
Because of the internet then, it's meant that everyone's been able to give their own opinion and I'm trying to put my thoughts into words really.
There's basically two camps.
One is the camp that I'm in which says Maddie was abducted and the parents are innocent and then there's the other group who say That Maddie wasn't abducted, that she died in the apartment, and that the parents covered up the death.
And it's a bit bizarre, really, because if that was the case, then it was all finished in 2008.
The McCanns weren't suspects anymore.
The case was shelved, and they could have left it there and just walked away.
But they didn't.
They kept trying to keep it in the public eye.
They wanted to find out what had happened to Maddie.
And that's what's happened, really.
And also, the Portuguese police, they weren't particularly, I mean, I'll get a lot of stick for saying this, but they weren't particularly set up to handle a case like this.
And the initial investigation, there was no DNA really collected.
They didn't know what they were doing, as far as I'm concerned.
And then, of course, the big change came when the dogs went in.
And that really, really stirred things up.
And once the dogs went in and the dogs alerted, then it was really grist to the mill.
People then thought they got proof that Maddie died in the apartments.
Because if those dogs are reliable, Maddie died in the apartments, end of story.
That's it.
There's no arguments.
So the question is, are those dogs reliable?
I say no.
And I've got a lot of reasons to say that.
A lot of things to back it up.
And the first thing was one that I put on this morning to you, a question, where Martin Grimes said, false alerts, false positives are a possibility, but Eddie...
In 2,000 case searches has never done so.
Now, what most people took that to mean was that Eddie had never been wrong in 200 cases, and that's not what Graham was saying.
But not only people took that and ran with it, the detective, the lead detective, Conco Amaral, took it further.
He said, these dogs have solved 200 cases.
They're the world's best.
And if those dogs were that good, then they'd be cancer guilty.
The dogs weren't that good, and there's lots of reasons to question the dogs.
And that's why I put that question up this morning, because most people took that paragraph to mean that the dogs had a 100% record in 200 cases.
Martin Grime let that run.
He should have corrected it, really, and made people understand that that wasn't the case, because, as I said, that changed the whole direction of the investigation.
The whole investigation then thought, the McCann's the guilty, Madeleine died in the apartments, and that was it.
So what happened then was, the McCann's were made our guidos.
A little bit before that, The McCanns gave their statements.
Now, people say that in the statements they don't match up, but there's a very good reason for that.
And that reason is the Portuguese employed not particularly good interpreters.
In fact, one man who became an Arguido, he was an interpreter.
And so therefore, the police asked the question in Portuguese.
The interpreter then...
The McCanns answered it in English, was then changed back into Portuguese, written down in Portuguese, then the McCanns signed it.
The McCanns don't know what they signed.
Now, people say they wouldn't sign if it wasn't true.
They had no idea what they were signing, and no one knows what they were signing.
So those statements are not politically accurate.
Also, what happened was as well that Kate wrote a book, and Kate said that the statements weren't accurate, and they...
They retook the statements with help of some other detectives, but all the people who questioned McCann say those statements show irregularity, show lies.
That was that.
And then, of course, there was the dogs who came in, and the dogs only alerted to things McCann.
There was an underground car park with perhaps six cars in, and the dog comes along, and he...
Sniffs the first one, runs to the second one, a little sniff to the third one, runs to the fourth one.
When he runs to the fourth one, Martin Grom calls him back to have another look at this car.
Now this car happens to have two posters of Madeleine McCann in the windows.
This sounds like a joke, but this is true.
This car had two posters of Madeleine McCann in the windows.
The dog had a sniff, ran away, had a sniff, ran away.
Martin Grom called him back five times until the dog alerted.
There you are.
And people say, well, that's how it is, but it's not how it is.
Even in the apartments as well, Eddie can be seen.
What happens, you see, is when you look at the video of the dogs, you'll see a very edited version, not the full version.
Again, in the McCann's apartments, the dog goes into the wardrobe, runs out, out to the bedroom.
Marty Grom calls him back in again.
Cicerone, and Martin had caught him back in again.
So Martin Grime kept pulling the dog back, and even the Portuguese, in the files, the Portuguese said, what's going on?
These dogs react to cadaver scent.
Why is it that they ignore things?
And then suddenly they alert.
The best example is the cuddle cuss, because when Eddie came in the room, the cuddle cuss was on the floor, Eddie picked the cuddle cuss up, swung it round, and threw it down again.
And went off.
And then Martin put it somewhere else.
And this time, he alerted to it.
It all doesn't seem very professional.
So, here's a comment from Babs on Twitter.
She says, Eddie and Keela, which are the two dogs, I think Eddie was a cadaver dog and Keela was a blood dog, human blood dog.
They found only forensic trace of Madeline.
Let's see.
No biological trace or fibres attributed to Madeline were found in the bed that she was supposed to have been sleeping in that entire week.
How would there not be any forensic traces of her in the bed that she was sleeping in all week?
Was a maid coming in there and cleaning the bed every day?
Well, perhaps there were traces.
What happened was, in fact, there were hairs on the bed that were collected.
The forensic police did a visual inspection of the sheets.
The next day the sheets were sent to the laundry.
That's it.
The next day the sheets were sent to the laundry.
They only did a visual inspection.
Not very good, is it, really?
OK, well, the first thing is there never were 200 cases.
The dogs only took part in 37 cases in six years.
37 cases.
The dog, Eddie, in five, six years, he found one body.
That's about the sum of the evidence he found.
Now, the people who were anti-McCann, they believed that Eddie was the best dog in the world.
He wasn't even the best dog in Yorkshire.
On those notes I sent you, there's a Freedom of Information Act from Yorkshire Police, and Eddie found...
One victim, one cadaver in five years, and the other dog in Yorkshire found three in five years.
I've got it written down somewhere, actually.
So it was all hyped.
Now, you start to wonder, why was it all hyped up?
And the very good reason why it was all hyped up was because Martin Grime...
In August, when he went to Plain de Luz, he was starting a business where he hired his dogs out to find evidence.
He started his own company.
And in fact, he used a video from Luz to get his next job.
His next job was in Jersey, where, again, Eddie went in and he found that he...
There was an alert, and they dug down a bit, and they found what looked like a piece of a child's skull.
There was an anthropologist there with Martin Grime, and he said, I think this is a child's skull.
To be safe on the south side, Martin Grime took the piece of a child's skull and put it somewhere else to check, and the dog alerted to it again.
So what's going on there?
When the piece of a child's skull went to be tested that Oxford University was found out to be part of a coconut...
So Eddie alleged to a coconuts.
Now, the answers will disagree with that, but it's on record, it's on record.
In fact, I've got it on that evidence I gave you, GR6.
And in that investigation into Jersey, Martin Graham was heavily criticized in the official report because he took the investigation into the wrong direction.
He found this coconut and everyone thought there were bodies there, started digging more and more.
And the same in looks for the McCann's.
Eddie alerted in the apartment and everything was concentrated on the McCann's there.
Now, why would Grime not be honest?
I'm not saying he's not honest because he may have thought.
If I'm going to find evidence anywhere, it'll be in this apartment, hold it carefully, and I'll react to any little thing.
The fact was, the dog only alerted in the McCann's apartment.
So that sounds...
The other thing is that most scientists who deal with these dogs say, and in fact, Martin Grimes said at the start, The dog alerts are not evidential.
They've got no value as evidence, unless they are corroborated by physical evidence.
There's no physical evidence.
Martin Grimes said in the official report at the end of the PJ files that as there were no remains discovered, then the only alerts that were corroborated are the ones by the CSI, Dr. Blood Dog.
Interesting.
Okay, let's listen to this audio really quick.
This is Martin Grime.
He's explaining something here.
This is posted by Craig Campbell.
We've screened the vehicles using the doll, and the only reaction we've had is to the car in the bar corner.
I'll tell you which one it is.
Here's the redhead.
And what we have is a reaction from the doll over here, where his head's up in the air, and he sent in the items that he's trying to find, and when we tie him down, he picks this car from this door.
So he alerted on the McCann's rental car out of all of the cars.
He ignored the car five times and was called back to the car.
It sounds crazy.
If you watch the full video, Eddie the dog was called back to McCann's car five times.
And you probably thought, unless I alert, I'm going to get no food tonight.
He was fed up.
There you are.
As I said, the big question is, can we trust Martin Grime and his alerts?
Now, there's a German investigation.
And a UK investigation, Scotland Yard and the BKA, they are totally ignoring marketing grimes alerts, totally ignoring them.
Why would they ignore marketing grimes alerts?
Because they're worthless.
That's why.
This is a lot to take.
I can see your puzzled face, but as I said, when you look into this deeply, this is what you find.
The other thing about this as well is this, is that people think.
Who follow the case that these dogs were sort of super dogs.
Now, these dogs were trained to find bodies.
In 2005, Martin Grime and Mark Harrison decided that they would think of the alerts as...
Not as evidence, but as intelligence to help the case.
So in actual fact, it was a new type of thing they were doing.
It wasn't fully thought through.
Mark Harrison, who was in partnership with Grime to a certain extent, in his interview before the dog searches, he said that...
These dogs will go in.
If they alert and there's nothing there, it may be that there's been a body there before.
So Mark Harrison said if they go in and they alert and there's nothing found, it could be that's where the body's lying.
When the surges were over, Mark Harrison did a complete volta face because I think he was horrified at the way it was all going and he said...
No alert, sorry, no evidence can be inferred from the alert without it being conferred with physical evidence.
Those dogs really, in fact, Martin Grom says in his foreword, those dogs are there to find evidence, not to bark and that's evidence, they're there to find evidence.
And it's all been, I mean, that thing about the 200 cases where there never was 200 cases.
But the detective who ran the case, he wrote a book.
In his book he said, these dogs are fantastic dogs.
They've sold 200 cases.
And Eddie, the dog, found a body underneath a slab of concrete in Jersey.
That didn't happen.
But that's what the Portuguese thought of the dogs.
They thought that these dogs were fantastic.
And it's the dogs that are half as good, is what Grimes said, that becomes the guilty.
But there's something not right there.
Because I think you got something wrong there.
The dogs were used 37 times.
They didn't find evidence 37 times.
They probably only found evidence once or twice.
Carry on, sorry.
Jason is saying the dogs alluded 17 times to McCann, stuff relating to Madeline.
But they're saying, Ken, you're saying they're all false positives, all 17?
Yes, I am.
What are the odds of that?
17 false positives?
Because Grime and his dog alerted 11 times in Jersey.
There was no children missing.
All they found was the coconuts and some baby teeth.
What I'm saying is there's something not right about those alerts and they're not genuine.
They can't be genuine because the blood dog can detect the tiniest speck of blood.
So there was only a tonny speck of blood found in the McCann's apartment, and all the other apartments were totally clean.
What it is, this case has been going on 17, 18 years.
That was in a newspaper early on.
Most people perhaps didn't see it, but that's what happened.
Madeline Case Tweets says, Eddie has never alerted to meat-based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption.
False positives are always a possibility.
To date, Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training.
In six years of operational deployment and over 200 criminal cases, the dog has never alerted to meat-based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption.
Similarly, the dog has never alerted to roadkill.
That is...
Any other dead animal.
And whoever this person is comes from a police file.
My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler cueing.
All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in behavior.
The increased handler confidence in the response.
This procedure also stops handlers cueing and indication.
The dogs are allowed to free search and investigate areas of interest.
So, I mean, are we in agreement that what the dogs are alerted to was not pork or foodstuffs?
Well, what I would say is, first, this false positive thing, what does that mean to you?
Are you telling me that that dog never gave a false positive, never gave a false alerts?
Is that what you're saying?
I'm not saying it never did, but it's 17 alerts.
The odds are just...
It doesn't make sense.
It doesn't make sense.
And I understand, like, the McCanns were there, and obviously there's going to be a scent around.
Like, obviously that, you know.
Who knows, Matty...
Why would Matty be bleeding, I guess?
That's the question.
Why would Matty be bleeding?
Well, children bleed, don't they?
They do.
But what I was going to say to you is...
But why would it be behind the sofa?
There was no blood detected behind the sofa.
That isn't true.
There was no confirmed detection of blood anywhere in the apartment.
I mean, they took the tiles and carpeting.
You see, the other thing as well is that what you need to realise is that all the DNA in this case is what's called low copy number DNA.
That means it's one, two, three or four cells.
It's tiny.
LCN DNA, which is all the DNA in the mechanic case is LCN or touch DNA.
In the States, they don't even allow it in court because it's not accurate enough.
It's so easy to get a false result with it.
In fact, it's only allowable in about three or four countries in the world because it's touch DNA.
So they found the tiniest speck of something.
They then amplify it.
Make it repeat itself.
And it's just, it isn't accurate.
That's why, as I said, the other thing as well, I mean, this is all going to be perhaps a bit disjointed, but they found DNA in the car, right?
Right.
And there were 15 markers that matched Madeleine's.
Out of 18. Well, 19, but that's okay.
19. Right?
Yeah.
But...
Now that sounds pretty impressive, doesn't it?
It's not.
And the reason it's not impressive is because the sample was a mix of three to five people who could have been the parents, the children, who would have had the same markers in their DNA.
The next thing as well is the DNA was touch DNA or LCN DNA and that could have just got there by innocent transfer.
I've cited a case, and it was an IRA murder case, where there was a box of matches found in the getaway car.
And the match, the DNA, was a complete match to a man.
This man got sent to prison.
Three years.
Then he got released on appeal because touch DNA, right?
If I shake hands with you, you're going to plan to go to Australia, they couldn't find my DNA on the door of your hotel room in Australia.
That's how it is.
So it isn't reliable enough.
So if they did find a perfect match with Maddy in that car, it doesn't mean Maddy was in the car.
It doesn't mean Maddy was ever in that car.
Because it could be there by innocent transfer.
And there's been courts have ruled that several times.
I mean, that's true.
I mean, this gets pretty convoluted.
Babs, again, is saying that Martin Grimes' dogs alerts entered into the proven facts at the Supreme Court ruling.
So they accepted it into the court.
Okay, well...
Right?
First, right, this is a civil case, right?
And what happened was the...
The court case was based on the book that Amaral wrote.
And in Amaral's book, he wrote that the dogs alerted to cadaver sense, even though that hadn't been proved.
So in his book, he says the alerts were to cadaver sense.
So that's what was entered in the court.
Now, I've looked at this, and it's quite confusing, actually, as to how that could happen.
So, how could those...
Facts get into the proven facts.
I would say it's because it was in Amaral's book at the start, and it wasn't a criminal trial, it was a civil trial.
And in fact, Jerry McCann, he stopped the judge and said, look, those dogs aren't...
Those alerts haven't been confirmed to be to the Cadaver Centre.
The judge said, we're not here to establish the truth.
We're here to establish whether the book affected you in any ways.
The other thing as well is there's something very, very strange in Portugal, and you can take a note of this, and it's called the Free Evaluation of Evidence.
I don't think it's in any other legal system.
And what that means is the judge could decide upon a fact's free valuation based on her thoughts of what's a proven fact.
That sounds bizarre, but that's it.
The free valuation of evidence in Portugal.
So, because they were in the...
The other interesting thing then is the fact that the McCanns won the first case, didn't they?
Right?
So, you've now got the McCann.
They've won, right?
They've won, so that's it.
We're all done.
We don't bother questioning anything.
Then Amaral appeals.
He appeals, and it's all looked at again.
Now, it's too late now for McCain to question anything, because they need to do it in the first place.
Then it goes to the Supreme Court, and again, it's too late.
And in fact, on those pages I sent to you, you will see that the ECHR, the Court of European Rights, it doesn't...
assess any of the facts itself.
It takes the facts from the host country's records.
So even though the ECHR said, again, it appeared in their papers of proven facts, that wasn't because they had tested it.
It was because it was in the court records.
Does that make any sense?
it's so complicated um *laughs* I'm sorry.
Trying to get something to work here.
I mean, there's so many, there's just so much stuff in this case that none of it, a lot of it makes sense, a lot of it does not make sense, and like, all the evidence has been presented.
Pro-McCanns are just saying, no, it's not.
It's not true, anti-McCanns.
It's like a war between the pros and the antis, and it gets, I'm trying to stay in the middle here, and trying to figure this out in a neutral stance, and I mean, I have been at this for a couple weeks, and I'm no further.
Than what I was at the beginning.
Right, if I could just say something.
Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
The ANSIs talk about the files, the PJ files, right?
Well, in July 2008, or September 2008, the McCanns were...
The case was closed, shelved, sorry.
The case was shelved.
McCann's were no longer suspects.
And in the final ruling, in the final draft from the court, the decision was no evidence of any crime by the McCann's.
That's in the Portuguese files.
That was the understanding of the investigation.
The investigation was shelved with the...
Proviso, no evidence of any crime by the McCanns.
There's someone here that wants to talk, but I'm trying to get their mic to work.
Let's see.
Hello.
Oh, yeah.
Who is this in this space here that's in here?
I just turned your mic on.
Oh, then they bounced.
When I allowed them on, they took off.
Okay.
The closing of the case.
That's in the official court files.
The official archive of dispatch says no evidence.
This is the official Portuguese court's decision.
No evidence of any crime by the McCanns.
I think I might have that sort of evidence.
And also, there's another one that's in that file I sent you.
In 2017, Pedro de Carmo, who was the deputy head of the PJ, said...
No evidence, McCanns are not suspects.
There was no evidence against the McCanns.
All the evidence was trumped up by people online.
You see, you say about mainstream media, we all know you can't trust mainstream media, but what have people now put their faith in now?
They put their faith now in podcasts, I'm sorry to say that, and people who...
Who stand up and say, I'm the expert.
They're now in a worse position.
And there are people online, I'm not going to mention their names, who promote these fallacies.
Right?
They promote the fallacies.
And also, these people won't entertain having any discussion with someone like me.
They only want their own part of the news heard.
So there you are.
A huge part of it is, you know, people will listen to Joe Rogan because it's Joe Rogan.
And if Joe Rogan says it, then it must be true, right?
So I can see that.
A lot of people, like, no one trusts the mainstream media at all.
The mainstream media are known to be liars.
They're paid and bought for.
It's so simple.
And let's see.
Who was saying something here?
Was it Jason?
Jason the Postman.
Oh, yeah.
11,000 pages of evidence in this case, and the McCann's, the parents, Kate Healy, actually, and Jerry, they have not been cleared as suspects, correct?
That isn't true, no.
What Jason's referring to is the Supreme Court judgment.
And what the Supreme Court judgment said was that when the case was closed in 2008, that didn't equate to...
The McCanns being cleared.
So the Supreme Court was saying, not that the McCanns weren't cleared, but they were cleared in 2008.
Now, this is 2017 now.
Now, people hold this up as the McCanns not cleared, but what is the mechanism to clear the McCanns?
Because if you think about it, if there's a bit more evidence, or a lot more evidence, then...
If McCanns were taken to court, they'd be found not guilty.
So on the evidence we have now, there's not enough evidence to arrest them, not enough evidence to charge them.
So on that, if they went to court, they'd be found not guilty, but they haven't been taken to court because there's not enough evidence.
So they're saying they're not cleared.
Well, that's not to be cleared because they're not officially accused of anything.
So I did read that the McCanns, I mean, so Case Trousers were alerted to.
And I was reading that the police, instead of taking these items of clothing, they allowed them to wash their stuff and then got the things a week later.
I'm not sure they even had them.
Is there truth in that?
Well, I don't think they even had them a week later because the cuddle cats, that was alerted to.
Now, I've tried to work this out.
If it's alerted to, there's got to be some deposit on that cuddle cat.
If they have a child for dogs to alert to.
So if they're alerted to the cuddle cat, why didn't they take it and test it?
They didn't bother.
It's just, the whole thing's crazy.
But the thing is, the alert, for me, hadn't been thought through properly.
But you see, what it is, you see, is that if you listen to Martin Grime...
Right?
Here's the expert.
And you say, what does that alert mean?
And it's written in the files, the 11,000-page files.
That alert means it's possible the dog's alert into a cadaver.
Possible.
Not even probable.
Martin Grimes' words are in the files.
It's possible that that dog is alert into a cadaver.
But...
It has to be corroborated by physical evidence before it can be used as evidence.
They weren't corroborated.
Such a lot to take in, isn't there?
The Supreme Court said that they were not cleared.
It is in the public domain.
It comes from Jason.
Karma, Portuguese Supreme Court judges who ruled last week against their last-ditch appeal over Amaral's 2008 book, The Truth of the Lies, said the lifting of their status as arguidos or formal suspects and the archiving of the criminal case into Maddy's disappearance did not mean they were innocent.
Of course it doesn't.
If they'd been tried and found not guilty, it wouldn't prove their innocence, does it?
You've just said that.
So what did the kids have to do to be regarded as innocent?
Because even if they were tried and found not guilty, that wouldn't mean they were innocent.
But there's one way they'll be proved innocent, and that is Christian Bruckner, perhaps.
So yeah, everyone points to Christian Bruckner, Christian B, as they say.
But apparently he's got a pretty solid alibi where him and his girlfriend were traveling at the time with their parents in a different country.
It's not true.
That's not true.
Not true.
No.
What happened was, Martin Grimes, sorry, not Martin Grimes.
What happened was, Christian B. gave a reporter an alibi.
I'm trying to take the name of the reporter today, but he escapes me for a second.
And he said, he was with this girl who he was having an affair with, who was on holiday with the parents.
But when the Germans traced that girl, they said, She wasn't with him that night, so he's got no alibi.
Now, there's a second alibi which says he was driving down from, I think, another town to Farah to another girl.
That girl says she didn't see him.
He's got no alibi that night.
Now, the German police, the way their justice system works is they have to find evidence that can clear someone as well, so they have to look for an alibi, and they've interviewed all his friends.
He's got no alibi.
Hello?
Could I?
Um, talk please.
Yes, you may.
And who is this?
I think, um, I am anonymous.
Okay.
Anonymous, hello.
It's pretty clear that the dogs are reliable.
The parents are trying to mask what they've done by blaming the dogs.
McCann's guilty blood on their hands.
Martin Grime, sorry, Martin Grime has said there's no evidence that those dogs were allergic to cadaver.
He said it's possible.
It's in the files.
You can read it.
It's possible.
Nothing more.
Now, all these people phoning up now and all these answers, they think that it's a proven fact.
It isn't.
And Martin Grommer said it isn't.
So what is Christian B?
Christian B is in prison right now for, what, raping a 75-year-old woman in Portugal.
But he's going to be released this September.
There's no evidence against him.
They can't hold him.
Well, they do have evidence against him, they say.
Yeah, so if they had evidence against him, why aren't they charging him with anything?
I mean, he's about to walk in a few months.
He's not about to walk.
He could possibly walk.
What's happened is, the Germans say they've got absolute evidence that Martin McCann is dead, murdered by Christian Bruckner.
Now, what that means to me is that they've got proof that Martin is dead, murdered, abducted and murdered.
What they haven't got is...
To find someone guilty of murder, you've got to have a really, really strong case.
And Walters has said all along he wants to charge Bruckner with the strongest case possible.
Now, is he in no rush to charge him because Bruckner is in jail?
Right, he's not going anywhere.
No, I think what's happened is, Walters, the Germans think they might be able to find the body.
Then they'll have a slam dunk case.
So what's happened now is, because Brooklyn may walk, then what Walter said now is, if it comes to it, they will charge me what they've got.
There was a video on the feed just before, where the video starts with Walter saying, we'll close the case.
The person who made the video had missed all the stuff before it.
The stuff before it says...
We've got evidence.
We don't know until we put it before the judge and see if we can get an arrest warrant.
But in Germany, they don't do that until the very end.
The other thing as well is, if they charge Christian Buchner, Christian B, it's all out in the open now, they have to show all the evidence they've got against him.
Now, the Germans have got this important piece of evidence they're telling no one about.
They're keeping it quiet.
And Christian B's...
Lawyer, Freddie Falcher, he's desperate to get his hands on this piece of evidence.
As soon as Brooklyn's charged, they have to divulge the evidence.
I mean, Brooklyn's just been charged with five cases.
He's got acquitted on all of them.
It's bizarre.
It's totally bizarre.
Is that funny?
I mean, that's kind of ironic, right?
If you watched it, if you watched it, you wouldn't believe it.
Okay.
One of the charges.
Right?
It's not too awful, right?
Christian Bruckner was in the children's playground at 12 o 'clock at night, right?
Underneath the slide, with his trousers down his ankles, masturbating, and he called the child over to help him.
There was an off-duty Portuguese policewoman who arrested him on the spot, right?
Because he was wanted in Germany, he was extradited before they could try him.
So he was tried with that.
About six months ago.
What he said was, he was having a pee.
So you've got someone who's been found guilty before of pedophile offences in a children's playground with his trousers down his ankles saying, oh no, I wasn't masturbating, I was having a pee.
And guess what?
The court accepted it.
What's happened with that now?
It's a bizarre thing in Germany because...
The prosecution can appeal, and that appealed, because what happened in that trial was quite bizarre.
And how it was bizarre is that because Walters has sort of made all these claims, he's upset the judge because the judge believes in justice, the justice system.
And that's more important than anything.
And because Walters has upset the judge by making all these claims without sharing the court.
The court has come right down on Brunt's side.
It's unbelievable.
There was a poor woman in rapes as well.
Now, Christian Buckner is in jail at the moment for rape.
And he's got a very particular modus operandi, dressed all in black, breaks into a person's apartment, ties them up, films it.
That's what he's in jail for.
There's another woman, an Irish woman, who said...
She was raped by Christian Bruckner.
But the judge wouldn't allow all that evidence to the court.
So he's got...
Well, he was given a question on that case.
The girl's taken a case to the European Court of Human Rights Act.
It's all bizarre.
It's totally bizarre.
I mean, it really is.
But we can all say that just because Christian B was, you know, masturbating in a park does not mean that he's a child kidnapper.
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
So that's the thing, like, because everyone will say, oh, he's a pedophile, so let's go after him because, well, pedophiles are low-hanging fruit.
We say it all the time.
It's so easy to blame something on a pedophile because everyone's going to believe it because, well, it pulls the heartstrings.
But if there's no precedence...
Absolutely.
I've personally witnessed somebody get accused of something that they didn't do and it get pushed on them and then be found guilty simply because they'd been a bastard beforehand.
And it actually kind of made me sad.
If I'll just say one more thing.
The big claim from the Portuguese and from the ANSI fans is that Christian Bruckner is a patsy.
For some reason, the Germans are providing a person to get the McCanns off the hook, right?
Which is a bit bizarre anyway, really.
But there was much better patsy than Christian B. There was a tractor driver who was a suspect and who died.
Now, if the Portuguese, if they wanted a patsy, that would have been the perfect patsy.
Why have they chosen Christian B?
But what you said is very true.
They've got no chance of getting anywhere with Christian Bruckner unless they've got really good evidence.
If they haven't, they're wasting their time.
But according to Bruckner, they've got this evidence.
Now, is he lying?
But it's not Bruckner saying this.
He's a spokesman for the BKA.
Is he lying or have they got this evidence?
And what will happen now is if...
If Booknet is due to be released, he's going to be released, he'll be charged with the Maddie case.
That's what Walters has said, he'll be charged with the Maddie case then.
They won't let him go without charging him, and if it's not enough, if it's not enough, it's just one thing, then they'll have to close the case, but they hope it's enough.
Jason says the taxi driver was already deceased when they tried to pin it on him.
Tractor driver?
The taxi driver?
Oh, I'm like, tractor driver?
It's a tractor driver.
The tractor driver wasn't deceased when the induction happened.
Auto-complete.
He was not deceased when they tried it.
Were there any other suspects other than the tractor driver and Christian B, Christian Bruckner?
There's never been any real suspects.
Never.
There's never been anyone with any evidence against them.
This is why it's come out of the blue, really.
And this is due to Scotland Yard, basically.
What Scotland Yard did was they organised a phone-in on German TV and the McCanns appeared on it and someone brought in Christian Brooker's name.
Someone has Riverside open on other tabs.
They should close those.
I'm not sure who that's supposed to go to.
I'm hoping not me.
I had to rejoin because you said it wasn't recording and then...
A while after that, the red dot dropped off, so I left and came back.
Oh, man.
Do you have reverse head open in any other tabs?
I have the please keep this tab open one that it uploads with, but now I shouldn't have any other ones.
I closed all those out.
Well, all right.
Continuing.
This is pretty standard.
Snafu.
Shit, now we're all fucked up.
So, let's see here.
Patsy number one with, oh yeah, Murat, that's right.
Robert Murat, was that his name?
He was never a real suspect.
Robert Murat was never...
There's been no suspect, yeah.
Never a real suspect.
Sounds like the Mackenzie were real suspects.
No evidence against Murat.
And according to the Portuguese courts, no evidence against Mackenzie either.
Yeah.
So all these 11,000 pages of files, nothing.
And Robert Murat was actually awarded a bunch of money for being, for what, libel?
Yeah.
So were the McCanns.
And the McCanns.
So where's all of this money?
What are we up to now in all the donations and money raised to go to this investigation?
It's like 18 million pounds, right?
Like, where's all of this money going?
Well, it all went, because what happened was, it was 11,000 pages.
Because there's been so much information, that 11,000 pages had to be translated by competent translators, and then every page had to be analysed by a detective to make sure they didn't miss anything.
That's why it's cost so much money, 11,000 pages of evidence to analyse.
Now it's sort of, it's a small amount every year, it's about 100 and...
100,000, I think now.
And that's just keeping things open because I'm fairly sure that the Scotland Yard are on the same page as BKI.
And it's just a little office open to keep them connected.
It'll be interesting what happens this year.
So the McKinns use a lot of that money to defend themselves.
No.
Yeah, well, I mean, the fence ain't cheap.
That was policemen.
My question is, why did the McCann's get such preferential treatment from the very beginning?
That's my question about this whole thing.
They had so many political people come out of the woodwork just to protect them, to help them, to defend them.
Right out of the woodwork, immediately.
They went to go talk to Tony Blair, the frickin' Pope.
What was all this preferential treatment?
Like, I don't understand.
I've never seen that in another case.
Okay, because it's a very special case.
A young girl going missing in Portugal, not in the UK.
And the McCanns are intelligent people.
And they know who to phone, who to get involved.
There's nothing...
I can't see how there could anything be...
I mean, people do say, oh, well, the McCanns have something on the British government.
They also have something on the German government as well.
It's ridiculous.
I can agree with that.
What happens now is politicians want to be involved in this sort of thing.
It's good for their images.
Well, I mean, it gives you a great opportunity to push a bunch of privacy-invading stuff that wouldn't actually save anyone.
Always.
So, yeah, they're going to want to attach themselves to this in general because it's a nebulous abduction case where the only solution probably wouldn't have solved it either.
Other than just simply, well, not going out in the first place.
Yeah, so here's Jason.
He's kind of backing what I just said.
Like, all missing people are special and no other family or missing people have been afforded such assistance.
Like, that's exactly where I am on this.
There's something there.
Yeah, it is.
It is pretty OJ looking for the real killer levels of coverage.
For sure.
And it's like they were just awarded earlier this month, what, another $108,000?
It's because there is still...
You don't see this anywhere else.
Well, what they're saying is that while there are investigative avenues, they won't close it.
That's it.
While there are avenues being investigated.
I think once Christian Brutner goes, either Kilsi or Freud, that's the end of it then.
But as long as there's an avenue to investigate, they have to see it through.
And also...
Most people, most children who go missing are found in the next half an hour or next day.
There's very few, probably half a dozen children actually go missing and never seen again.
There are reports that, I mean, there's actually video, not even reports, but video of Jerry standing on the balcony right after this happened and he's just like laughing hysterically.
Is that just how some people react?
I've got a very good answer to that.
To their missing child?
I'll go through my papers.
You've got the papers as well.
If I can just, let's see.
Are you aware of the Cassidy Stay case?
I see where I'll find it.
Yeah.
No?
Yes.
Right.
I'll send you some evidence.
Right.
Page nine.
Page nine.
Have you got that email?
I was looking at my email here and I didn't see anything.
That's a shame.
There's a girl, I think her name is Cassidy Stey, and she's an American girl, and her whole family was murdered.
She was there with them.
She survived by actually playing dead.
And two weeks later, they had the funeral.
So she survived by playing dead.
She's the only one that survived.
Now, there's a photograph of her arriving at the funeral.
It's just such a shame that you haven't got that, because it shows a smiling...
Yeah, I don't have any email, no.
It shows her smiling and waving at the funeral.
The next minute she's in tears.
So, that thing about Jeremy McCann smiling, is a nothing?
It's a nothing.
Because people who are bereaved do smile.
And I've got a lovely photograph.
Make sure you've got it.
Yeah, it is important to remember that bouts of mania do occur during grieving, and that somebody looking happy may not necessarily indicate mirth.
No, and I agree with that, but it just reminds me of the Sandy Hook episode when Robbie Parker was talking before he went up to the podium to talk to the people, but he was laughing, having a good time, patting people on the back, laughing.
And then the moment he walks up to the podium, it's almost like, okay.
Action.
And he completely changed and became very sad.
And it's like, that's fucking, that's an act right there.
But if I can just say something.
Just similarities.
There's all these little nuances that people think they're guilty.
What they haven't got is any proper evidence.
No proper evidence that becomes guilty.
Nothing.
That's it.
Right.
Jason made another good point.
What's the need of all this extra funding, this consistent funding, when the...
The suspect they're trying to pin it on is already in prison, right?
But they still need more money, more money, more money.
Yeah, if they have 100,000, that doesn't go very far.
It's just, you know, one and a half officers just to sort of...
Hello, Kat.
One and a half officers just to sort of keep in touch with the Germans.
They still have to exchange ideas.
And in fact, there were Scotland Yard officers at the trial last year.
British officers at this trial in Germany, so there's still things they need money for.
And as I keep saying, there's all these suspicions, where's the real evidence?
Have the Cannes completed the most perfect crime?
Because there's no real evidence against them.
And that's what the Portuguese have said.
They've said they haven't been cleared, but they've also said they're not suspicious, there's no evidence against them.
And there is no evidence against them.
Well, I mean, at some point, short of just jailing somebody because they must be guilty, you can't really do anything if there's nothing there.
And you don't want to go down that road.
I don't want to go down that road.
Obviously, guilty is not a status that is arrestable.
Sorry.
It's a very subjective perspective.
Yeah, this has got to be one of the most...
Frustrating cases that I've looked into.
I mean, it's up there with...
I didn't get pushed hard either way reading into it.
It was hard to come down definitively on either side.
It just reminds me of the Ramsey case in Colorado, United States.
Everything just leads to the parents, but you can't pin it on them.
There isn't definitive proof either way, and that's what's frustrating.
I mean, depending on who you talk about, because pros will say yes, there is.
Antis will say yes, there is.
But like...
Well, there is all the reasons.
And pros say there is.
But what evidence is that?
What evidence there is against McCann's...
I'll tell you something now, right?
Evidence against McCann's.
They're statements, right?
They're statements of witness statements.
They weren't cautioned.
They weren't read that they were under right.
So their statements are inadmissible.
The DNA is low copy number DNA, not admissible in Portugal, right?
You're then left with the dogs, not admissible as evidence in court.
So those three things, none of them admissible as evidence, so that's it.
And they're not admissible for a very good reason because they're not reliable.
Now, it's funny that you mentioned the Ramsey case specifically because when someone asked, name another high-profile case that the Crown had touched on, That was immediately what I thought.
That was such a huge case.
Did they say something about that?
That was the first one my brain went to.
I wonder if the royal family had something to say back then.
Because I feel like they probably would have done it.
I don't doubt it.
That was such a prominent story.
That was probably the last time I saw this level of celebrity involvement in a case like this, really.
If you want something else, there's some evidence to talk about.
Something that's very interesting.
Someone called Smithman.
Right?
Now, there's a chap on our tab called Craig.
That's right.
Now, Craig's doing a live feed tomorrow from Clare de Luce.
And Craig is convinced that Smithman is the piece in the jigsaw.
Because Smithman said that he saw a man carrying a child that looked like Maddy.
And he was...
60-80% certain that the man is Jerry McCann.
Now, that's what he'll be saying tomorrow.
But he's missing a lot out.
Now, what he's missing out is this, right?
Martin Smith gave a statement in May.
That was the month that Maddy disappeared.
And he said he'd seen this man.
The thing he said, which was very interesting, was it was quite common to see...
People carrying children in play, which was common to see.
Yeah, I've read that a lot.
Whereas we might think it must be the McCann.
So it was common to see.
He said it was dark, so he didn't get a good look at the man's face, and he wouldn't recognise the man again.
That's it, right?
What happened then was three weeks later, sorry, a month later, I think, Marty Smith saw Jerry McCann walking down the steps of a plane, and he said that's just the way the man was holding the baby.
So based just on the way he was holding the baby, the child, Martin Smith, well, the Portuguese took that on board as being reliable evidence.
Now, the other thing is, I've got some very bad news for Craig as well, because I found this little piece from a paper, and it's saying how Martin Smith's wife, right?
She's speaking for both of them, saying how much they feel for the McCanns.
Martin Smith doesn't still think he saw Jerry McCann because his wife spoke and said, we said what we felt at the time, but we feel terribly sorry for the McCanns now.
There you are.
So that's for Craig.
Craig, that's for you.
Yeah, you can't tell your case too.
I think I might have seen somebody.
Oh yeah, I'm sure they did see someone.
I mean, they saw somebody, but I mean, if you can't even...
Definitively conclude that you're sure you saw a certain person, but that's pretty shaky at best to tie anything to, really.
I could see why they wouldn't really pursue much based off of that proof.
The own person's already not sure about it from the beginning, and then less certain as they go on.
Yeah, see, somebody says they're 60% to 80% certain.
I hear that says to me, you're not really even willing to make a claim.
That was based on the way he was carrying him, not my face.
Based on the way he was carrying the child.
Well, there were two witnesses, right?
So you had Smith being a witness, and then you had Jane Tanner, I believe.
It was another witness.
But both of them were at a distance at night, and neither can really definitively say they saw what they say they saw.
Correct, yeah, correct, yeah.
So what's the talk about the kids being drugged?
So, I mean, the McCanns admitted that they would give their children sleep medication.
Is that correct?
No, no.
They didn't?
What they admitted to was they gave their children Calpol, which is paracetamol.
Children's paracetamol.
It's not a sedative.
No.
It's all...
I think you...
What do you call it?
Let me look that up.
It's paracetamol.
It's not a sedative at all.
I've never heard what that...
I don't know what that is.
Advil?
That's the one down here.
Well, it's not aspirin, actually.
It's not aspirin, but...
Aspirin.
Yeah.
So there's no sedation.
Tylenol.
Not a sedative.
For children, it's given in a liquid form.
But the important thing is you wouldn't have to overdose a child on it because you wouldn't get enough down into the child because they'd have to drink a whole bottle.
No, you're not using that medication to sedate children.
That's not a medication you would choose.
Not a medication you would choose.
So, let's see.
Fiona Payne, she said that the twins didn't stir and didn't even blink during all the commotion.
Yeah, that's a point I wanted to make too.
When Kate went back to the apartment to check on the kids and she found that Madeline was missing, you would think she'd be irate.
You'd think that she'd be screaming, Maddie, where are you?
Maddie, where are you?
Yelling, looking around the apartment, but the twins didn't even move.
The twins didn't even wake up.
There's a good reason for that.
She immediately said they took her, so in her head she thinks that Madeline was kidnapped.
Why would she leave the twins in the apartment and run back to the...
The tapas.
Panic.
I mean, as a father, I wouldn't leave my children in a room where I suspected my other kid was just kidnapped from.
I mean, that's ridiculous.
Yeah, I feel like you'd be very protective and not let them leave your sight from that point.
We'll just add to that point about the kids sleeping.
If you've ever taken young children on that sort of holiday, the kids are so wet, they go to sleep and you cannot wake them up.
Absolutely whacked.
That's probably all it was.
Children totally whacked by everything they did all day.
And the thing about leaving the children, you see, it's all tiny little things.
You can't charge someone because she left the children.
She could have just panicked.
I think she panicked.
Okay.
I mean, everyone reacts differently, I guess.
Absolutely.
I cannot.
Picture that.
So, alright, so if Kate mentioned that she saw a couple, a couple, two people taking Madeline.
Kate mentioned a couple taking Madeline four times.
I don't think so.
That comes from me.
I don't think so at all, no.
I mean, I've never heard that, but...
No.
I mean, it's one of the possibilities that Magda was taken by a couple who didn't have a child.
That's one possibility.
Well, fortunately, the Germans have proved that Madeleine was taken and murdered, which is very sad, but that's how it is.
I have heard reports, though, that people saw a couple.
I have heard that.
A couple taking a child.
There was, actually.
There was, yeah.
I have heard that.
That falls in line with, like, the Podestas, right?
The Podesta brothers being involved with all of it.
Yeah.
And I have no idea how those sketches...
See, I've seen two different sets of sketches.
The typical ones that you can read on the website, Madeline McCann website, but then all these other people are putting up pictures of sketches that look just like the Podesta brothers.
And it just seems like one of these cases where people just interject all of this other stuff to muddy the waters.
It makes it very difficult to pin down any solid avenue.
What I can see is we'll know this year about...
No, because...
They're going to have to charge him with something, otherwise he'll walk free, and they won't let him walk free.
And if he comes through it, they'll charge him with the Maddy case.
And if they haven't got enough evidence, then he will walk free.
There's nothing they can do about it.
And that's what you're saying, that they'll close the case.
But I have to wait and see.
But of course, as I said, the other thing was, it's a bit strange in Germany.
The fact that...
Christian B was found innocent, well, not guilty, of those five crimes.
In Germany, the prosecution can appeal.
So they've appealed again, so he may be tried again on the same charges.
All right, so one thing about it all, why would the parents leave the kids in the hotel or the apartment every night?
And go back to the Tapas Hotel to drink.
Why wouldn't they use a $12 an hour babysitter on any of those nights?
They consciously chose not to use a babysitter and opted to leave their children alone in an unlocked apartment with a patio door unlocked.
That, at the very least, is neglect.
I think we can all admit that.
At the very least, this is parental neglect, which the parents should be charged with.
Bottom line.
You see, well, the only people who could have charged them with neglect was the Portugues.
The Portugues said there was no evidence of neglect.
That's what the Portugues said.
They couldn't be charged with neglect in England because it's not a certain of case to be able to bring to England.
The only people who could have charged them with neglect was the Portugues.
Yeah, but I mean, people have a strong overestimation of what constitutes child neglect.
I've had to...
Correct people know spanking a child is actually not beating them and it's not considered abuse in most states.
But people think the slightest thing, like talking to them loudly, is beating them.
So yeah, you run into this really skewed protect the children thing here where...
People respond so emotionally that, oh, you left the kids home for 30 minutes or something like that is considered effectively a cardinal sin when, you know, last key kids in the 80s spent entire evenings at home while their parents were away.
I mean, that's true, but think about the ages here.
Think about the ages.
You have two infants, essentially, and then a three-year-old, almost four.
That's way too young to be left alone.
I'm more so referring to the legal definition of neglect.
I'm not sure how it would work in the States or there, but people always assume it's way, way lower a threshold than it is.
When I read the initial...
Report in the first month or so.
The McCanns said it was like being in a 1950s seaside town.
It was all that safe and friendly.
What they didn't know was there were loads of burglars going on because the police kept it quiet.
There were lots of burglars going on in those apartments but they didn't want to tell everybody because it was bad for tourism.
So the McCanns, I mean, I know it's crazy that they left them.
McCanns thought it was okay, thought it was safe.
You'll find it's very hard to believe, but doctors as well, they might not trust Australia coming in because Australia hasn't been vetted by, you know, a criminal check.
So they might think that that's the reason to let someone else to crush their children.
But again, it's not enough to say they're guilty of...
I mean, the accident thing is a whole, another whole load of strange things as well, because the police in Amaral reckoned that Madeleine fell off the sofa and banged her head and died.
That's not how children die.
She was going to fall off the sofa, bang the head on the floor, get a big lump, and if it's bad enough, it'll kill them in about 12 hours.
And that's why if you take a child to a hospital with a head injury, I'll kick the child overnight.
Kids don't fall over and bang their head and die.
It causes subdural hematoma.
It bleeds below the cranium.
And it takes time for that pressure to build up.
So the idea that Maddy fell over and banged their head and died doesn't really make sense.
I think the people that stand behind that...
Go a step further and don't just think that she hit her head and died.
They essentially imply that the parents physically did something to them or perhaps drugged them and did something to them.
There's that whole line of argument that the parents were doing some sexual assault on their child.
I mean, that's where they stand.
Because, yeah, I agree with you.
A kid, their skulls are very soft.
So you fall.
Like, we're valuable, but we're not that valuable.
You know what I mean?
But, yeah, I mean, kids aren't just going to die by falling, unless she got stuck behind the sofa and couldn't breathe.
Well, if she got stuck, she wouldn't fall.
That's really...
You have to look at what's happened, because that's never happened.
A child has never fell off and caught up to the sofa in a wall.
It's never happened anywhere in the world.
You can Google it.
No, but there are cases of people falling into a certain area and being stuck in a position where they couldn't breathe.
Those have happened numerous times, more than we can even count.
Well, I'm not too sure.
I haven't read about them.
I'll Google it.
But they call it postural asphyxia.
I think the accident really doesn't hold water, really.
That night, Jerry, like, I don't know if it was Jerry or Kate, but one of them called Sky News, I believe it was Sky News or BBC or something, like, that night.
Why would they call the news station?
That is odd.
Well, quite obviously, because they called the news station after Matty had been abducted because they wanted to get it on the news as quickly as possible to get people knew about it.
Immediately, though?
Like, before there was any definitive...
They didn't call them immediately.
That's not true.
That's not true.
The press record, the Scottish might have been called in the morning, the morning after.
So why would Kate immediately say they took her?
It's almost an expression that's used in England.
You know, pronouns they and them.
They doesn't have to be plural.
It can be they took her, they killed her.
It's a pronoun that sort of doesn't specify a sex.
He took her, she took her, they took her.
Also, as far as I'm aware...
To reference an unknown suspect.
That would not be my first thought.
As far as I know, it may be a Liverpool...
You know, if my kid's missing, I'm not going to just immediately say, oh my God, they took her.
Like, who took her?
Why would anyone take her?
Like, I'd be looking on the apartment.
Maybe she walked outside looking for the parents.
Yes, but you're missing something.
You're missing something.
Is there something?
When Kate went into the apartment, opened the door, the window was open and the shutter raised.
Right?
Now, if you walk into a room where your child's missing, the window's open, the shutter's raised, then I think that's pretty, you know, you're going to think abduction.
Yeah, but considering there are nine different people checking on the kids, it could have been any one of them who was like, oh, it's kind of hot in here, I'm going to open the shutter.
You know?
But immediately she says, oh, they took her.
No, no, no.
You see, the thing was about McKenzie, they thought those shutters were security shutters.
Right.
They thought they were safe.
They weren't.
They were very easily open from the outside.
You'd be lifted up very easily.
They never found any evidence of anyone going through that, though.
All they found there were Kate's fingerprints was the only thing they found.
No, there were other sponge prints as well.
There were other sponge prints as well.
Other sponge prints as well.
Jason says the McCanns said the window and shutter was smashed, broken, and or jammied.
The shutters and windows were untouched.
Is that true?
What happened was this, right?
The McCanns thought they were security shutters, right?
And that to open them...
Someone would have to get something underneath and gem them up a bit.
They never said smashed.
What happened, you see, is that we don't know the words McCann's used, but their family, the next day, all used different words.
It's like, I don't know if you have something called a Chinese whisper in America.
Well, yeah, the window is broken into, could pretty easily change to the window is broken via mishealing.
That's right.
The window is forced, but...
This idea about McCann's...
McCann's would be stupid enough to say the windows were smashed if they weren't smashed.
Again, it's all a little innuendo.
Yeah, I don't really think they would make a completely easily refutable claim that the cops could call them out on the scene.
That would make them look extremely guilty.
So Kate went and she found the window open.
I know people disagree and say she's lying, but...
Is she lying?
We don't know she's lying.
Can't just assume she's lying.
No.
I mean, we assume everyone's lying here, but yeah.
Yeah, for real.
But out of 49 questions, I mean, she answered one.
Okay.
Declined to answer 48. Yeah.
What happened was?
Basic questions.
Very basic questions where if your child's missing, you would want to answer these questions.
What was the first thing you did?
What was the first thing you saw?
What did you check?
All these really basic things.
But she's like, I'm not going to answer that.
No, you're wrong.
I'm sorry.
I don't want to be rude.
48 questions.
No, I haven't finished.
Kate had answered questions for 12 hours.
She'd answered all those questions already.
Right?
She's answered all those questions.
What did you say when you went to the room?
She's told the police everything.
It's all in her statements.
It's all there.
What happened then was that she was made an argument.
She's never been made a suspect.
And her lawyer advised her not to answer any questions because the PGI hadn't got any evidence to arrest her.
Right?
But they were hoping she might say something in the answering.
That would give a little reason to arrest him.
I don't know if you've ever seen the film called My Cousin Vinny.
Oh, of course.
Yeah, right.
I Shut the Clerk.
I Shut the Clerk.
You remember that bit?
It's been years since I've seen it.
That's one of my least favourite movies.
I never actually watched it.
Oh, it's one of my favourites.
What I'm saying is...
Kate was advised by a lawyer not to answer any questions because the PJ were looking to arrest her.
The PJ wanted a reason to arrest her.
Now, I'll show you today what the PJ did to another mother.
Now, they wouldn't do that to Kate, but the PJ are a bit of a bad crowd, to be quite honest.
So, Kate was advised not to answer any questions.
Jerry would advise not to answer any questions either, but he did.
He answered them all.
If Kate had answered those 48 questions, I'd answer another 48 to wear her down, to say something that might give them reason to be able to arrest her.
Any lawyer will say, don't answer the questions.
She's already told them the things about, you know, it's all in the files, what she did, where she found everything, that she'd done that.
But they were looking for something to arrest her, that's why she didn't answer the questions.
So again, that's something that people put as, didn't answer the questions, she must be guilty.
No.
No, and I understand.
Like, an attorney, everyone knows not to answer questions, but in a situation like this, basic questions, where was the first place you looked?
I mean, the bedroom.
Why wouldn't you just say the bedroom?
Yeah, I'm on both sides.
No self-incrimination.
She already answered those questions.
She already answered them in the previous days.
It's in the files.
It's all in the files, the questions she's answered.
She's given them all the information they needed.
It's all there.
And those policemen, they weren't looking to try and find Maddie.
They were looking to try and pin it on Kate because they had the dogs by then.
So again, you know, some people would say, well, yeah, she must be guilty she didn't answer the questions, whereas it doesn't mean a thing.
Maybe that she's not guilty and didn't answer the questions for very good reasons.
There you are.
I tried.
Stay neutral and not automatically assume someone's guilty because they don't want to answer.
I'm kind of both ways on this one because on the one hand, you'd want to help them, but at the same time, if you've already answered the questions, you're probably suspicious that they're looking to try and get you on something.
I would tell people I refer to all previous answers.
All those questions, the important questions, they're in the files.
Kate's already answered them.
They're there in the files.
They've already been answered.
And if Kate had answered those questions, they'd answer another 48 and they'd have worn her down.
And that's it.
The only way Kate could stop the PJ from trying to put the blame on her was to stop, not answer the questions.
Because once she'd answered the questions, the case was finished.
This case had nowhere to go because they got no evidence.
And she wanted the case to stop so that they could start looking for Maddie because the PGI were not looking for Maddie.
The PGI had dogs who had never been wrong in 200 cases.
They knew Maddie was dead according to the PGI and the parents in...
They knew she was dead that soon?
No, but what I'm saying is as soon as the dogs went in...
They concluded this.
Amaral wrote a book.
As soon as the dogs went in, Amaral decided Maddie was dead, and she died in the apartment, and the parents had covered it up.
That was it.
The whole investigation changed to concentrate on the parents, but Martin Grimes said, just because the dog's alerted doesn't mean there was a body there.
That's what he said.
It's in the files.
It's there.
I'm not making anything up.
He didn't even say, in my opinion, there may have been a body.
He said...
It's possible there was, you know, the doctor that urged the Kadava sent.
But he actually goes on to say, but you can't make any sort of, you know, there could be other reasons he says.
Any more questions?
Well, from what I'm reading here, I can have a degree in biology, be a police dog professional, and apparently read the book, corroborating the other side of the story, and if I come to the wrong conclusion, people will still tell me I'm wrong.
No, I'm not going to spend eight years for you to still tell me I'm incorrect, guys.
I'm sorry.
To answer all of the challenging questions, no, I don't have a degree in biology.
No, I haven't worked with police dogs, but I can tell you right now I've dealt with police bringing false positives and fake evidence, so let's not pretend that don't happen.
It's an interesting case actually talking about fake evidence because we touched earlier on the girl, the Irish girl, who was raped in Portugal.
And the police did an absolutely appalling job on her investigation.
She's taking them now to the ECHR, European Court, because, I've just read this today, it seemed the police forged her name on documents and told her, don't, you know, just go home because you'll spoil the tourists.
There you are.
I mean...
I mean, that's pretty serious if that happens.
We all know there's bad policemen, right?
But in that small group who were investigating Made, there was Amaral, who got a conviction for perjury in another case, and there was Almeida, who in another case got a conviction for torturing another suspect.
But both have got criminal convictions, both in that small group.
See, and I'll be fair here and say that that prejudices a lot of their work.
Against them and makes their evidence less admissible, just like the things that the McCann's doing being suspicious taints them.
That's the thing, is if you want to be fair, everybody looks pretty damn bad in this.
Everyone wants to be right.
But everybody wants to win.
That's the problem here.
And effectively, it don't matter how much studying you come to, you're still going to come to this conclusion that we can't really conclusively determine anything because that's the whole reason we're here arguing.
But what we have to remember is, as far as Anna was concerned, unless Martin Grime was lying or something, the McCanns are guilty.
If those dogs genuinely alerted to cadaver, then the McCanns are guilty.
So it's as simple as that.
If they're half as good as Martin Grime said, the McCanns are guilty.
So why aren't the McCanns being arrested?
Because...
The only reason I can see is because those dogs aren't as reliable as Grimeback says.
I mean, that's the real thing.
If the aim is good, why is nobody pulling the trigger on anyone?
That's right.
On anybody in this.
Why is nobody getting nailed to the wall for what's happening here?
Somebody...
Somebody screwed up, for God's sake.
Somebody did bad.
Somebody screwed up that investigation somehow.
The ball was just dropped from beginning to end.
I don't even think anyone ever had the ball in this.
It was just...
It's a mess.
Honestly, the more I look at it, the harder I find trying to actually nail down any definitive conclusion on this.
It's like the more info I get, the less I know.
That's exactly how it is.
One step forward, two steps back.
So I've got a few quotes here from some people that were part of this case.
And let's see.
Well, Alameda.
So Tavares de Alameda, chief inspector, said the McCanns in self-defense didn't want to deliver the cadaver voluntarily.
And there is a strong possibility that it was moved from the initial place of deposition.
And then there's Francisco Moeta Flores, Inspector, Policia Judiciaria.
Madeline was killed in Aldeia de Luz.
The mystery lies with one or two of the ten or twelve elements that used to enter the apartment.
Goncalo Amaral, Inspector, Policia Judiciaria.
The process was archived due to political reasons.
This, despite the understanding of the Portuguese and English investigators that there was a death and concealment of a cadaver.
Peter Bleskley, former Scotland Yard detective, said the Met have played second fiddle to the Portuguese.
It just about keeps the lights on and exists to keep Kate and Jerry McCann happy.
And then Bert Stellender, who I just listened to his podcast he was on last night, and it really made the case against the parents.
But he said, we have surprise contestants, the Golden Nuggets.
I think the Nuggets are a family.
A couple.
But they were caught on the field cameras in the game of Cat and Mouse.
Let's see which one of the dominoes will fall first.
It's Lois.
Have you read his book?
That sounds awfully clickbaity.
Not going to lie.
That sounds extremely clickbaity.
He must say this.
That book came out a year ago now, and he was going to show this video.
If you read his book, he says, and then Jerry and Kate came around the corner.
I didn't get a good look at the faces, but I know it was Jerry and Kate.
Then another one where...
And then Jerry came.
I didn't see his face, but I could tell by the back...
This is so impossible.
I could tell by the back of his head it was Jerry.
He hasn't got one proper sighting.
And he also says that the McCann's...
Sorry, the McCann's friends.
I thought that would be the Tapas Nine or something.
No, it's this Nugget family who have come from nowhere.
I'm ever so sorry, but that bloke is just...
There's only one really good quote in that book.
In all those thousand pages, and the quote is, was that the detective, Bert Sullender, he was friends with Christian Bruckner's lawyer, Freddie Falcher.
And Freddie Falcher, when Bert Sullender told Freddie Falcher, Falcher thought he was marvellous, you know.
Brooklyn's innocent because there's all this evidence against the McCanns.
But there's one piece in the book that's really interesting that that piece is.
I think it may be that evidence I sent you is.
Bert Salander says that one day he met Freddie and he seems to have lost Freddie's confidence because one of Freddie's closest sources had told him that the Germans had a photograph of a dead Maddy.
So Bert Salander told...
Sorry, so Freddie Falcher told Bert Salander that the Germans...
This is in his book.
It's in his book.
So it's not...
It's in his book.
The Germans have a photograph of a dead madder.
That's in Bert Salander's book.
But he didn't provide any evidence for that, right?
No, no.
He provided no evidence for anything.
And he hasn't called McCann's other friends at all.
It's all fantasy.
His website's getting worse.
It used to be one page.
It's not half a page now.
It's totally...
His book, I think, was on one of those...
I didn't realise you could do this.
You order it.
If you order one, they print one.
I think that's how it was.
But it was basically...
I think he thought that he'd come with all this information and everyone would just fall down.
Nothing.
I'm sorry, but the man's a crackpot.
I shouldn't say that.
I mean...
Listening to the podcast, at first I was like, this guy's got some extraordinary claims here.
I mean, he's up on the hill because he had a vision or something.
He went off of Kate's vision about a hill and Matty was up there buried or something.
And he went up there and put up a bunch of cameras for five years.
Yeah, that's right.
And would go up there at night, change batteries, change memory cards, leave.
And he did this for five years.
I mean, this is...
That's right, yeah.
Dude is...
He hasn't got one confirmed sighting.
I've read his book.
He's got one confirmed sighting.
He knows it's Jerry because of the hair on the back of his head.
That's a new revelation for me.
The good Lord said, I must surveil.
There was no cutting-mouth game and no sightings of the McCann's.
Yeah, distinctive flathead.
Natalie says, Jerry's got a distinctive flathead.
You should have known him.
It's like a Simpsons episode.
You don't scare me, that could have been anyone's ass.
You don't scare me, that could have been anyone's ass.
I don't put much stock in a Burt, but...
Last time I emailed Burt, he said that the documentary is in the planning stage.
What that means, I don't know, but the documentary is in the planning stage now.
Better hurry up, really.
So he's making a documentary.
Okay.
He claims to be.
Is he seeking funding for the documentary just by curiosity?
He's spent five years of his life.
And what has he achieved?
He hasn't got one confirmed sighting of the McCannons.
It's all the back of people's heads and their ankles.
And he knows it's the McCannons.
He can tell.
But he didn't get a good look at the faces.
It's ridiculous.
He said he saw the McCann's friends up there.
He said he could verify that.
No, he didn't.
Well, yes.
I feel like Bigfoot sightings have more to go on here.
We at least get to see Bigfoot's face sometimes.
He saw the Nuggets up there, right?
And he decided that the Nuggets were McCann's friends.
He just decided that couple are McCann's friends.
And what he decided is that...
The McCanns sent the Nuggets up to scout around.
But he's got no evidence of that.
He's got no evidence that the Nuggets know the McCanns are sore.
He's just decided that because it fits.
And when he's been taking film for five years, he's got to find something that works.
But when he's seen the Friends, I thought he was going to be the tapas, but it wasn't.
It was the Nuggets.
The Nuggets, yeah.
And, you know, he's said they're the McCanns' friends.
He's got no evidence of that.
Let's give this a listen really quick here.
This is from James English on Twitter.
What's your opinion on the Madeline McCann case?
Well, it's interesting because I knew a woman that had involvement in that from early on.
She's police staff, but she's not an investigator.
And my opinion is that they killed her, Gerry and Kate.
What I've heard is that they were swingers.
You know, and that they'd been anaesthetising the young girl and maybe the girl body had to be disposed of because if it was found, it would have had signs of sexual interference, which would then put an influence on the other two children being looked at.
And maybe prevented anyone from leaving that country.
And that Concalvis, the guy there, again, this is typical British snobbery.
You know, they denigrated and rubbished him and tried to take the investigation over to him.
It's a Portuguese investigation.
They're under Napoleonic law.
We're under common law.
We have no jurisdiction in that country at all.
What the hell would a British be doing there?
They weren't assisting because they didn't want their assistance.
They had it under wraps.
So certain was Concalvis that they did it that he wrote a book.
Of course, Kate McCann went out of her way to destroy his credibility, so he went and...
Uh-oh.
Lost it.
Oh, man.
What it said is that he can see in Kate's face that she's suffering, and he said, Kate, surrender yourself to Jesus because the devil's taking you.
Well, there's that.
I don't know.
Perhaps you go with that.
I don't know.
Surrender yourself to Jesus, eh?
Something like that.
The devil's going to take you if you don't tread yourself to Jesus.
There's lots of people who are making a living going on shows like that and promoting these.
But where's the evidence?
A whole lot of speculation.
A whole lot of speculation everywhere.
I mean, there's at least one book getting sold about this, so yeah.
Yeah, and I was going to say, I mean, there's a lot of money being moved around with all these libel cases being won, and there's just a lot of money being moved around.
I just need to write my own book.
My two cents.
Well, I am not at all connected to this, but here's what I think.
And so he's talking about the sexual assault on the kids, and then there's...
Dr. Catherine Gaspar, I know you've heard about this, and she's, yeah, she was with the McCanns and David Payne, who is also one of the guys at the Tapas Bar with the family.
But she said she witnessed David Payne and Jerry talking at another vacation they were all on.
And she looks over and David Payne starts sucking on his finger, putting his finger in and out of his mouth.
And with his other hand, he was rubbing his nipples, saying, She likes this, referring to Madeline.
I don't think he said she would do this or something like that.
There are two possibilities.
One, Jane McCann and O 'Brien are talking about the sexual abuse of Maddie in front of completely almost strangers and discussing openly that they're sexually abusing Maddie.
Or, they're doctors.
They were talking about how Maddie was best fed.
And how much she sucks so hard.
I know that might sound strange to you, but...
It sounds strange.
It sounds strange, yeah, but I think that's fair enough.
But I think that's got a bigger possibility of being true than two doctors discussing the sexual abuse of a girl in front of other people.
Again, I mean, you can just speculate on it, but I mean, sometimes they might have felt comfortable or thought that, you know...
Sometimes...
Yeah, it's a hard one because, yeah, you really shouldn't bring that up.
But sometimes, too, people do casually let stuff slip.
Quite often.
In actual fact, there were two gaspers, the husband and the wife.
The wife thought it was sexual about Maddie, but the husband didn't.
He said he thought he had it distasteful, but he didn't think it was a sexual thing.
It's strange.
That's very strange.
It is strange.
It's very strange.
Don't sound right to me.
The one thing I would criticize the McCanns for, if that was me, I'd be coming out, fighting all the evidence and explaining it all away.
For me, that's what they should do.
They should come out and go on chat shows and answer all these questions.
I agree.
And why do you think all these family members, the Tapas 7 or whatever, did they...
Are any of them giving interviews?
Do any of them go on podcasts?
Like, are any of them actively looking for Madeleine McCann or...
Okay.
None of them are going on podcasts.
None of them are saying anything.
But I think...
I think, unfortunately, the police or whatever would advise them not to say anything because it'll just fuel speculation.
So...
It just, as I said, it all comes down to it's in the cancer guilty.
Where's the evidence?
And we know that the main evidence, supposedly, is the dogs, but even Martin Grime doesn't claim that's evidence.
He doesn't endorse it as evidence.
Yes, he allows Amaral to write in his book that this dog has been sold 200 cases.
It doesn't correct him.
But for himself, he says it's possible that the dog's allergic to Kadama.
I know it's a big thing to accept that Martin Grime is not perhaps dishonourable, but he was starting a business.
In fact, in Jersey, he got paid £97,000 for so many weeks' work.
And there was an official inquiry, and he was very, very heavily criticised.
Also...
Everything we know about grime, there's lots and lots of grime about grime in the police files, lots about grime.
Everything comes from grime himself.
There's nothing from any independent person.
It all comes from grime.
There's no one saying, oh, he's great, just grime.
That might sound odd to you, but it's true.
Let's see.
Okay, this one I definitely want addressed here.
There's a strong rumor that the T7 signed NDAs, as none of them have spoken out for Madeline, and the McCanns have never appealed to Madeline either.
So, yeah, I'm curious what your take on that claim is.
Someone's claiming there's a strong rumor that the T7 signed NDAs.
I haven't heard any wind of that, but...
That's what's being claimed.
I'm wondering if you've heard anything on this.
Okay, right, yeah.
I think what it is, there's something they call the Pact of Silence.
But I don't think it's anything really, there's nothing to write home about it, really.
I don't think the Cans or the Cappas have ever said that.
It's just assumed.
But I suppose they don't want to talk to a lot of people, really, because...
The more you talk to people, the more you keep things speculating, more and more speculation.
And again, for me, it all comes back to where's the evidence of any wrongdoing?
That's it.
Where's the evidence?
You can't accuse people of serious crimes if you haven't got the evidence.
And it's the same with Bruckner.
If they haven't got the evidence, Bruckner will walk free and he deserves to walk free.
The evidence has to be there.
I mean, ultimately, that is the case.
Regardless of how anybody feels about it, the guy's, or if he did it or not, the guy's going to walk if they don't have anything to throw at him, and deservingly so if they can't bring anything up, right?
It's not on you to incriminate yourself.
We believe very strongly in that over here at the very least.
The strong contender is a photograph of a dead madder.
That's what he's hinted at.
In actual fact, he's actually said, if we had a photograph of Maddy and Christian Bruckner together, we'd be okay.
And that's another little reference to photograph.
I think they've got a photograph of Maddy.
Also, the Germans appealed for any property that Bruckner had access to because if they've got a photograph, they can match the background if they can find.
That background and link it to Bruckner.
They've got proof she's dead, I'm sure of that, but what they haven't got is enough to link it to Bruckner.
That's what they're struggling with.
Yeah.
But if that's the case, then we know that Grimes is wrong.
So we'll have to see what Grimes says if that's the case.
So I know a lot of people take this out of, you know, who knows if they take it out of context or not, but when Kate wrote a book, her book, her first edition, I know you know what I'm going to say.
For the listeners, her first edition of the book, there's a part, I think page 129.
She says, quote, I asked Jerry apprehensively if he'd had any really horrible thoughts or visions of Madeline.
He nodded.
Haltonly, I told him about the awful pictures that scrolled through my head of her body, her perfect little genitals torn apart.
Now, obviously, the question is, why would...
A grieving mother write that in her book?
Which was then later taken out in a second edition.
Why would she?
Because she's a doctor.
She's a doctor.
That's the way they talk about things.
That's pretty rough.
My daughter was missing.
I wouldn't be writing about her perfect genitals.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree it's odd.
But again, it's not odd enough to say you must be guilty.
No, not at all.
Not at all.
But it's odd.
All these small things add up.
Well, yeah, but they don't.
They do, but they don't add enough to sort of make a case.
I guess they don't add up to anything.
Exactly.
They can add up and you can go to court and say you've got all these little things, but at the end of the day, they mean nothing.
You need proper evidence.
And as I said, it may well be that she said that because that's the way they talk about things.
They don't say, you know, I won't say anything, but use any other little...
Baby words.
They use the proper words because they're doctors.
Very interesting.
I'm more concerned about that being their automatic go-to presumption than about the clinical description because I can actually accept a doctor who would talk that way about it.
My thought is, why would that be your go-to before you even really know the details?
Why is that your automatic presumption when you don't even have a body to look at or anything?
Because I think she'd be missing that long now.
It's a real possibility, really.
If she didn't die in the apartment, it's a real possibility she was taken by a paedophile, unfortunately.
It's a real possibility.
I mean, who else would have taken her?
The other thing is, Christian Bruckner, he'd got a name as being a burglar in those apartments.
He was called the climber because he burgled and stole things from all those apartments.
First of all...
She didn't scream?
There you are.
Oh, so Bruckner was telling his friend that Madeline didn't scream.
What even circumstantial evidence do they have against Bruckner?
They've got lots of little things.
People telling...
Sorry, my battery's going to look at me.
There's lots of things like people saying...
He said he didn't scream.
People saying, don't talk about that.
There's lots of little things that point to Bruckner, but nothing enough, and I'm from the same principles, nothing enough to sort of say that he's done something.
It's all hearsay and gesture, as Lionel Hutz says.
Those are kinds of evidence.
It's kind of evidence.
Cricket, where do you think this is?
I mean, what do you think is going on here?
I think all of this is a cover from something much more sinister, personally, in that that's the whole reason there's way, way too much high-level elite involvement in this.
And I don't trust any story from any side, really.
And the more I try to come to any kind of conclusion, the more I think there's just a third option that we probably will never be 100% privy to.
And the more I look at it, the more I feel like every attempt at it.
Digging into this is going to be deflected by that very fact.
I second that 100%.
I mean, they're obviously protected by powers high up.
And I don't even necessarily think it's them that are necessarily the perpetrators.
So it's like a question of, well, now you got OJ looking for the real killer.
Everyone's against them.
There's just nothing conclusively nailing them to this.
It's all just good enough that if you want to believe it, you will.
And just questionable enough that if you don't want to, you'll 100% doubt it.
But if you're in the middle on it, you don't know what the hell to think.
And I have not known what the hell to think since I first heard about this.
And I feel like I'm being pushed more to the middle than before.
There's this unspoken third thing that could be the possibility.
That we will effectively never get to know because this is all being covered up.
Craig is here.
Is this the Craig?
Craig Campbell?
Is Craig Campbell in the room?
Craig Campbell is in the room.
Craig, would you like to speak?
Possibly not the same one.
There's categorically no evidence that exists that Madeline McCann was abducted.
Craig says.
Oh, this is Craig?
Yes.
Okay.
What evidence would he expect?
The reason I say she's abducted, and the police are sort of working on, is that she's missing.
The parents aren't involved.
There's no evidence against the parents.
Therefore, the only other option is abduction.
That might not sit well with people.
It seems to me...
It would be really easy for the parents, even, man, I don't know, because even the police say there's no sign that an abduction took place.
The police say that in their official documents.
And it would be really easy for the McCanns to say, to set something up, like maybe they didn't want their unruly, troublesome daughter who was really hard and difficult to deal with.
Let's leave the doors unlocked in a place that's pretty obscured by any view.
Because they said that they can see the apartment from the tapas bar, but that isn't true.
You cannot see the actual exit and entry area of the apartment.
So it'd be really easy to say, all right, we're just going to turn a blind eye to this and somebody's going to take our daughter.
I'm just speculating here.
It's very far-fetched, really.
That's how we got at this point.
We've got to cast our net far and wide to catch anything.
You do.
You cast that net far and wide.
I mean, the thing is, is when everybody's saying there is no evidence, the problem is, is everyone is freaking right.
There is no definitive evidence that really concludes anything here, and that's what makes this so frustrating.
It's very true, but I think what's put into the mix is the fact that the PGI didn't do a good forensic check, so there might have been evidence that they missed.
I mean, the girl who was raped, Shannon Behan, she's not anonymous now, she found a broken fingernail in her bed.
After the police had been there, she went back to her apartment and found a broken fingernail.
The police hadn't picked it up.
So, it's been a bit hard, but I think, you know, the PJ, perhaps at that time, didn't do a very good job.
And it's not just me saying that, there's a lot of people saying that.
They missed a fingernail.
That's insane.
Man, how do you cross-check so many counterclaims?
God.
So Craig is saying, Jerry McCann said the apartment was locked in his official statement on May 4th.
And he signed that statement.
Simon says, he said, Jerry said the patio door was unlocked in his first statement.
And then Craig responds, he did not.
Apartment was locked.
He used his key.
Now I've read, I think it's on the Matty McCann website, that...
They did leave the patio door unlocked and they used that because it was less noisy.
Yes.
It comes back to that thing, really, about the way the statements were taken, translating into English, into Portuguese, back again.
And then the McCanns had to sign statements that they couldn't read that were written in Portuguese.
Right.
That's something important to mention, that they had to use a translator in all of it.
Yeah.
And also, in Jeremy McCann's statement in September, he said, I'll refer to my two previous statements and confirm them as correct.
So the PJ didn't say, well, just a second, there's a difference, you must explain it.
They accepted that?
So I think, again, that's a very small little point.
There's a bunch of discrepancies.
I don't know what they do in the US, but in England, the statement is written down in the person's own language.
I'll have someone on the phone to translate, and if they've got a Russian criminal or suspect, the statement he's signed will be in Russian.
That's what they do in the UK.
They don't ask people to sign statements in English because they don't understand English.
No.
Troll risk groups address discrepancies in there.
Ah!
Moving too fast!
Let's see.
Okay.
Window isn't allowed.
Alright.
The hotel manager, John Hill, says no sign of abduction.
I've been there and seen it all.
Someone named me.
So I must have said it.
I'm saying this to you, apparently.
Windows isn't a logical option for anyone using it to move a child out of.
It's completely overlooked, also.
You would have had to be a levitating, invisible magician to abduct her.
So, yeah, the hotel manager claimed there's no sign of it.
Well, I mean, it sounds like everybody did, really.
He didn't have to leave.
He left to the front door.
I mean, the trick is when you're initially taking them out, no one's alerted, and there's not actually an abduction that anyone's looking for.
So it would just be someone taking out a baby.
That's the trick, is we're kind of like hindsighting this and thinking, you know, everybody's going to be on high alert, but you have to keep in mind at the time, no, nobody's aware anything's going on at that moment.
And wouldn't find anything strange.
As Martin Smith said in his statements, it was not unusual to see people walking around holding children.
That's what Martin Smith said in his statements.
I'm just responding to some things here.
They're saying people are angry that we didn't do a live space on Twitter, and I tried, and Twitter would not let me, and people are saying, oh, you can do it.
I'm not verified, and it's telling me I cannot host a space, so I don't know why people are saying you can.
I cannot.
I have tried.
Yeah, I thought Twitter spaces were only for paid members.
You also can't publish articles.
No.
When I go to do a live space, it won't let me do it.
So I don't know why people are saying we can't or can.
I mean, I can't even do a long tweet, guys.
My powers are limited here.
It's annoying, isn't it?
Yeah.
And people are saying this is the worst podcast ever.
Well, they're also saying that we should have come into this with better research.
It's like, well, I know the basics of this case and I wanted to hear what Ken had to say on it.
And just refer to that.
But, you know, I mean, you can't win them all.
Sorry, everybody.
I mean, I could honestly read like 300 pages worth of stuff and still not have a single shred of evidence because no one has brought me any so far.
No, I'm trying to go off the main points here.
It's all innuendos, guys.
Come on.
That's all we got to go on.
They had the opportunity to come on and speak and put their case.
They chose not to.
And I want to say that you're all wrong because clearly the worst podcast ever was the reality creation episode.
I've seen the fucking stats.
So Craig says if Jerry McCann...
Nobody wants anything positive.
So, you know, this pissing contest will ironically be incredibly popular, by the way.
For real.
So here's something to ask you, Ken.
Why were phone calls deleted?
Why do the Tapas 7 all have deleted text messages?
Well, again, you'll say this is very unlikely, but the first thing is that even if they deleted calls, those calls would still be recorded on the company's record.
So they couldn't hide calls.
And I don't know about you, but sometimes when you...
You've got nothing to do and you're waiting and you've got nothing to do.
You're sitting like, delete all the calls that you don't need anymore, that sort of thing.
It's quite possible that that's what they did.
They're just sort of sitting around waiting for things to happen.
And so, well, I'll just clean the phone memory up.
But again, who knows?
But is that, you know, is that just another small little...
It's symptomatic of how little evidence there is.
They had to bring up these tiny little things, the minutia.
I'd say that the text is more compelling to me than the calls.
The call history is suspicious to me.
The text I could see, you know what, I've hit 100, I keep losing them, I'll just delete them all.
The call history being deleted is more suspicious in my opinion.
Yeah, but the call history is recorded.
They can't hide that.
Through the provider.
Oh, yeah.
It's more a matter of it's something you would instinctively get rid of if you don't think it's necessarily going to go to the point where they hit your phone records yet and might just want to look at your phone first.
Possible.
But as I said, again, it's little tiny little things that...
I know.
I'm coming from the point of presuming criminality here.
So, you know, that's what you would be thinking if someone did that.
I'm trying to play devil's advocate, as always.
I mean, you missed out that they went running.
Have you heard that?
Yeah, they were out running, playing tennis, all that.
Running is extremely good.
Way to get rid of stress.
We don't do a lot of running and it really hurts when you run up hills.
I think it's quite possible that they were doing that as a stress release and also playing tennis.
Yeah, exercise.
Exercising to me doesn't really indicate no fucks given.
Mirthful, joyful time.
Yeah, that to me implies you're trying to avoid emotions.
If anything, you're running away from them.
So, yeah, I can accept that you wouldn't necessarily be doing those things for suspicious reasons while grieving.
No.
I mean, look at Casey Anthony, for example.
It's people who have never experienced loss or have lecturing other people on how to grieve.
I mean, that's one thing, like what the McCanns were doing by running and doing these proactive activities.
And then you're like, but you grieved wrong!
I don't see that as being any sign that they were doing anything shady.
But when you look at Casey Anthony, the case of Casey Anthony, she killed her daughter and then was going out to clubs, clubbing it up, partying, getting drunk, having a great time.
That's way more suspicious than trying to take your mind off something like playing tennis or hiking or running.
I don't put stock into that argument.
If somebody was a writer and somebody they love died, you'd be like, that's weird that you're going on vacation when you're all depressed.
But if they continued working on their writing, nobody would be like, that's weird that you still work on your writing.
It's pretty suspicious.
They're working through it, for God's sake.
Things are always done because you're happy.
It's a whole lot of desire to emotionally regulate other people's feelings and telling them that they're feeling them wrong.
If I could just say about the podcast, they have the opportunity to come on and ask questions.
The fact that they haven't makes them think the podcast isn't very good.
It could be better if there'd been someone to speak.
I've done my best to present any counterpoints or questions I've seen on there.
Even the one that asked me if I had a degree?
Yeah, as I said, there are people, the main players, all the main players will not discuss the case with someone who doesn't follow their line of thought, none of them.
They all surround themselves with sycophants.
And because they could be found out and made a fool of.
And as I said, there are certain people, I mean, Martin Grime, Sonia Poulton, and...
If it does turn out that Bruckner is the killer, or even that Madeline's dead and was murdered, that's going to look pretty stupid, really, because of the amount of effort they put in to prove them a kind of guilty.
That isn't true.
Craig says, I have my own podcast, Come On Mine.
Would you go on Craig's podcast, Ken?
Absolutely.
All right, Craig, you can get him on.
I try to get people on here that had opposite perspective as you do, Ken, and nobody wanted to join because of past experience with you.
That's not true.
Right now, this whole podcast, you seem very civil.
I have not listened to the recordings.
People said they have recordings of those podcasts.
I haven't heard them.
You seem fairly civil in this matter.
Maybe it was because you didn't want...
The same situation?
You're being calm?
I don't know.
What it is, as I said...
We just need it in person and y 'all need to throw chairs and shit.
That's how it needs to go down.
I mean, the time when we had Bedlam in the podcast was when there were six aunties against me on my own.
And it was just ridiculous.
When it's...
It's civil like this and it's well controlled.
There's no problem.
And I will happily go on Craig's podcast.
I hope the invitation is here.
Yeah, I don't know which one he's referencing, what podcast.
Craig, what's your podcast called?
He's saying, Ken, I'm happy to have you on.
And then people can tell him you got the worst podcast.
Listen, if I can just say this.
Craig has got a totally different point of view towards me, but I respect Craig because he believes he's right and he's not rude to people, and I've got a lot of respect for Craig.
So there we are.
I can go on his podcast and have a little chat.
Is that an actual podcast or is that sarcasm?
What's that?
I can't tell.
It's called Only Cans?
I'm like, it could be real.
I don't know.
I haven't heard of it, but...
Okay, there you go.
There you go.
Man, I don't know whether he was joking or not.
It's in the chat.
I'm in the chat.
Go to the live stream chat one.
Really?
Okay, so yeah.
Also, that's an amazing name.
What is it?
Only cans.
Only cans?
I just wanted to make sure he wasn't taking the piss first before I passed it on.
Could you ask Craig where he got his theme tune from?
He's got a theme tune.
A sort of original theme tune.
Very professional.
Very professional.
Yeah, and I mean, Cricket and I have never claimed that we're professionals or have the best podcast.
I mean, we beat Joe Rogan out of the water every day, but I mean, that's...
Beside the point.
Joe Rogan would never admit half the shit we have.
No.
Or he would not have 30 million viewers.
He would not be permitted to.
That's hilarious.
He says it's AI.
Wait, what's AI?
The intro.
Oh, the Craig show?
Yeah, he says co-host Zoe does all that stuff.
I see.
Wait, are you not getting any of this?
It must come up way later in my feed here.
I see it now.
Okay, because I was like, I swear you've read off questions from that.
I did.
Mine loads very slowly, apparently.
If anybody's got one that they meant to ask that I missed, just repeat it again.
It's way too far up for me to even try to find it at this point.
Alright, we'll take final questions if anyone has any final questions.
Well, Ken, so what, in your view...
Can you lay it out for us, start to finish, what you believe, you honestly to your heart believe, happened to Madeline?
I think that if you look at all the evidence, Madeline was snatched by someone like Christian Bruckner and murdered.
And I think Christian Bruckner's a good chance that he's guilty.
I'm not saying he is guilty because we haven't seen the evidence, but what I'm saying is I think the evidence that Madeline's dead and murdered is there.
Whether they've got enough evidence to keep it with Christian Bruckner, that's the question.
So you're saying at some point Christian Bruckner was just like watching the family?
Do you think he was there stalking the family, watching them day in, day out to see what their schedule was?
And then at one point he finally went in there and grabbed her?
Well, it could be that.
It could be that.
But in fact, when Scotland Yard first got involved...
One of their theories before any of this came out was a burglary that turned into an abduction.
And everyone said, burglars do not abduct children.
And it was just laughed about it.
But then they came up with a burglar who was a paedophile.
It fits perfectly.
So he either watched them or it was a chance burglary and he saw Madden took her.
Because he said some pretty disgusting things, you know, not everything I could repeat.
He was caught on a podcast.
I won't tell him it.
Who wouldn't like a child?
Keep it alive and use it for days.
What if you get caught?
You just have to hide the evidence.
And there's a chat that they've got of him using that.
Who wouldn't want a child and use it for days?
And documents all the torture.
That's what he said.
Damn.
So there's just still no evidence that Christian Bruckner was anywhere near the apartment.
There's some evidence that ties in there, but you see, they don't need evidence to say he was at the apartment.
If they've got evidence to show that he killed her at some stage.
See, I think it was Amaral who said, before you can accuse Bruckner, you've got to prove abduction.
What do you haven't got to prove abduction?
If Brooklyn murdered Maddy, then she was abducted.
Right.
If, then.
Right.
But there's no evidence of any of it.
You just can't hit the if to establish the thens on anything.
The thing is, though, the Germans say they've got the evidence.
And are they lying?
I don't think they'd lie about it.
I think they'd lie and say that Maddy's definitely murdered and dead.
I can't see the BKA, who are the FBI of Germany, saying that.
No, I know Portugal has laws in place where they can't speak about an investigation without solid evidence and all that.
I wonder if Germany is the same or they're okay and open to talk about things.
I don't know.
I think Walters has stretched what he's supposed to do.
He's got the backing of the BKA, the police.
He's got the backing of them.
I think people are a little bit amazed at how frank he's been.
It's a cute button.
They said, you know, we've got evidence that says Brooklyn murdered Madden.
Evidence so strong.
He's actually said that if you knew the evidence we'd got, you'd come to the same conclusion.
There you are.
Why do official agencies all sound like Matt Wallace?
I'm about to reveal devastating information.
Eventually.
Just you wait.
We've been waiting for this now.
We've been waiting for this for years, but I think now we're reaching the end of it in the next six months.
Yeah, I guess eventually you're going to find out either way.
At some point, you've got to crap or get off the pot.
You're holding up the queue.
It's finished.
So, you know, what if we see in the next six months before Bruckner's, you know, eventual release, scheduled release, I should say, is going to end up hanged in a cell?
Then what?
Case closed?
I've actually suggested that.
It's not very popular because...
Have you hung on a doorknob with a tie?
A red tie.
It is an inexplicable doorknob on his cell that just appears.
He's a marked man.
He's a marked man.
Oh yeah, he's definitely marked.
We'll have to wait and see what the evidence is.
But he's certainly, if you release him, he'll be a marked man.
Yeah, that's the pain in the butt part.
Like, come on, guys.
Reveal all this secret stuff that actually concludes something.
I mean, there's the whole reason there's so much room for speculation is because whatever's being held back here is, if it's anything, do something with it.
The Germans may well be forced into acting because if he's going to be released, then the Germans will charge him or try to charge him.
They won't let him go because if he goes, I'll never see him again.
So if he's going to be released, then they'll charge him.
And that's what Walter was saying.
And if they can't do it, they'll close the case, but they'll try and charge him first.
So I really wonder, like, you know, remove Bruckner from the picture.
I mean, I have a conspiracy-laden mind, so it's going to drag on.
It's going to drag on.
Money's going to flow in, and they probably won't want to close the case because there's so much money coming in.
We'll just leave it open, right?
Yes.
As for who I think did it, I thought my doorknob reference made it pretty clear.
Who, Bruckner?
Somebody asked me who I thought did it, and I said, I don't think necessarily it's anybody that they're claiming.
It's just somebody that's not even been named in any of this.
Yeah, my theory seems to be it's like some kind of third party that wanted this all to be very muddy so that we could all be arguing about anything except what really happened.
Maybe Jimmy Savile had a part.
Never know.
Maybe Jimmy Savile.
I mean, at this point, I was going to say, at this point, we have as much conclusive evidence for that as anything.
Natalie says it's the Podestas, bro.
See, there you go.
Just as much evidence for them.
It's all up in the air.
How the hell can you do anything but just make it?
She's just joking.
She's definitely joking.
Yeah, I know.
Oh, wait.
Nope.
Somebody else says Diddy did it.
Well, there you go.
Case closed.
Diddy did it.
No need to look into it.
We could just blame everything that happened for the past five years on Diddy.
Well, damn.
All resources are freed now.
Like, we've solved everything.
Smithman did it.
Is that Craig?
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay, Craig.
I've got something for Craig.
Craig?
This is from Mrs Smith.
He said, Mrs Smith, he said what he had to say.
I was with him that night.
We saw a man carrying a child and that's all we know.
We told them all and that's it.
The man he saw had the same status as Gary, as Gerard McCann.
We felt that we had to help.
We were happy that we did.
We reported exactly what we saw.
We only did what we thought was right.
For a missing girl.
And our hearts go out and are breaking for the parents of Madeleine McCann.
I feel very much for them.
Like Madeleine, I had six grandchildren of my own and the children of my own.
So what that is, Craig, that's Mrs Smith talking for her and Martin Smith saying that they don't think it was Jerry and that their hearts go out to the McCann's.
OK, Craig, I'll do it on your podcast.
All right, let me ask Craig.
Craig, what do you think happened to Maddie?
Or Madeline, I guess I should say.
Yeah, I put out a cockamamie theory.
Now it's your turn.
It's going to take him a moment to respond.
Yours will probably be based on more than mine, presumably.
Yeah, I mean...
I mean, mine is all based on the fact that I don't know what the hell's going on in this, and it seems intentional.
I don't know if Craig's going to respond to the question, but...
I don't know.
6th September?
Let me see.
Let me see something.
What is Christian Bruckner's release date?
I mean, I know it's September, but his bid for early jail release was rejected.
Oh, there's no mystery.
That's old, right?
I've given up on the noble retreat, and I refuse to fold.
It's going to be all scorched earth from here.
September 17th, 2025 is his release date.
The U.S. Sun says he won't be charged soon and will probably be released.
Who the hell knows?
There is one interesting I wanted to mention.
I mean, this is kind of ironic how basically 18 years ago, tomorrow or what, Saturday will be 18 years to the day.
That's right.
We're commemorating the event?
A little ironic we did this show today, right?
Oh, okay.
I thought you meant it lined up exactly.
I'm like, well, I guess by the time you upload it, it will.
I mean, it just so happened that Madeline disappeared 18 years ago to the day.
I mean, in two days from now.
Well, there you go.
Let's see.
There's nothing to charge him with either.
Let's see.
Anything saying the contrary is guesswork speculation.
No, this is our first live stream.
So, yeah.
So Craig says, Madeline fell behind the couch.
She bled.
It was cleaned up.
The apartment was forensically cleaned.
Jerry McCann was seen by Jez Wilkins.
He took the back route down towards the beach.
It takes three minutes to walk.
The Smiths saw this.
Smithman was back up at OC within 10 minutes.
All right, so there's our counter theory.
The rest is noise.
That's from Craig.
Ask Craig what the cause of death was.
Craig, what was the cause of death, in your opinion?
Because if there's evidence that she was bleeding, does that mean did she accidentally fall?
Were the parents abusing her?
Did she fall, like I said earlier, and got in a position where she couldn't breathe, and the parents found her that way and cleaned up because they were freaking out, didn't want to lose their medical licenses?
Effectively.
She fell.
Craig says she fell, so she essentially hit her head and died.
So effectively.
A crib death, basically?
Wouldn't happen in that time frame.
Wouldn't happen in that time frame.
Couldn't.
Jerry McCann said she was susceptible to nosebleeds after being asked twice by police, which would account for the bloodstains.
I saw a picture of the bloodstains.
They had all the markers on the walls.
That looked like a spray of blood, like someone was smacking her and blood was being flung around.
I don't know what that's about.
Those weren't bloodstones.
They weren't bloodstones, yeah.
That's what I figured, because I was like, how could that?
That couldn't be blood.
That's just insane.
Unless she was flinging her nose blood everywhere.
So we have September 17th as Bruckner's release date.
We'll see what happens up until then.
I mean, they're just building a case against him because they say they have all this evidence that's going to put him away for life and solve the case.
But we haven't really seen much of anything.
It's been 18 years.
But there's a reason why we've seen nothing.
I think that's because they're hoping to find the body, which would have made the prosecution much more easy.
That's why they went out to the dam a year ago and took soil samples and things like that.
They're hoping to find the body.
And that's Bruckner's, what, personal paradise or something like that?
Yeah, yeah, that's right, yeah.
They can take soil samples, and there'll be stuff in the soil that will tell it if there's a body nearby, because it all runs into the soil.
Bacteria, insects, everything.
The PJ were inferring they had found blood.
GM didn't have the forensic report that didn't confirm that.
She also cut her leg on the plane steps on the way out.
That comes from Simon.
The big puzzle in all this is Martin Grime.
That's the big puzzle.
Because if he's right, then Maddy died in the apartment and the cancer guilty.
But if he's wrong, it's very odd that he's done all that.
It just seems almost impossible for him to be wrong, but I think he's wrong.
And there's going to be lots of people who stake their reputation.
Sonia Poulton, Isabel, Pat Brown.
All these people who said, who've gone down on the parents, did it, she died in the apartment.
All those reputations could go.
We'll wait and see.
And Craig says he's off to go ski.
He's impressed at how calm you were.
Would be happy to do a chat.
Okay, I gotta ask.
Am I the pro?
Is somebody gonna send me a dollar?
Who's stealing my paychecks?
Or are they referencing somebody else when they keep talking about the pros?
The pros can't get their blood story straight between them.
Some say there was blood and attribute it to others in the apartment.
A man who cut himself shaving and bled for 45 minutes.
I heard that.
That just sounds far-fetched.
Or a child with a cut chin that needed stitches.
Then others say no blood was found and the dogs found nothing.
Clueless.
And Mr. Jonathan 24, Money Farm.
Which I agree 100%.
This is a money farm.
This is circulating so much money.
Yes.
To whose hands is that money going?
That's the question.
I mean so much that people are assuming we're making money off of this.
That's how much money is being made.
We have a $25 million deal with Spotify.
Actually with Riverside, I should say.
Yeah, Riverside.
Never heard of it?
Well, here's our sponsor for the episode.
Riverside.
Do you want technical difficulties?
Riverside.
Yeah, do you want technical difficulties?
We got those.
No, no, no, no, no.
We bring the pain in the technology brain.
Riverside might want to sponsor us in the future.
Don't ridicule them.
I know.
I'm just kidding.
They're actually perfect and blameless angels and I love them.
I would hug them if they were a person.
Absolutely.
If the aunties are angry at your podcast, then hopefully that will mean that you'll have a new podcast next time and some aunties will come on and we can talk against each other.
Consider that an open invite, anybody.
Come on.
That's it.
Open invite, antis and pros.
I was hoping to have a very good debate on two different...
I was hoping to have someone on here that's opposite of Ken here, but nobody wanted to do it.
Don't like what he got to say?
Well, they've got no excuse now, because it's very civilized.
Then we want to hear what you have to say.
I have to remain neutral.
I mean, I have my speculation, but that's all it is is speculation.
Well, yeah.
That's why I come up with theories, but I honestly admit that I don't know this shit.
No, the water's so muddy, it's kind of ridiculous.
Well, let's call it good here, guys.
It's been a great discussion.
I mean, we solved nothing.
Well, thanks for hosting it.
It's been great.
Good.
Yeah, thanks for coming on, Ken.
I appreciate it.
Let's see how much stick I'll get in the morning.
Oh, dude, no.
I'm going to get a lot of hate mail.
I can guarantee that.
Crazy.
Yeah.
I can take it.
I can take it.
Yeah, I've been taking it for...
Years.
Well, since the feedback will probably be negative, I might actually get feedback for the first time ever.
It will be interesting to see what the feedback is.
Probably find out later tonight.
Excellence, excellence.
But as I say, you've done it first.
The first podcast is to give someone like me a platform.
And that, I think, will really stir the waters now, hopefully.
Man, that's what we're here for.
Well, a part of it...
When I get so many people telling me not to have somebody on, I'm going to probably have that person on.
You know what I mean?
I mean, that's how the Sandy Hook episode came.
I mean, yeah.
But from the very beginning of this podcast, I stated to the world, this podcast is for everybody to talk about their opinions, to talk about their stance, their perspective.
My point of this podcast is to give everybody a voice.
