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May 9, 2025 - Project Camelot
01:14:14
KATHLEEN MARDEN: EXPERT ON THE BARNEY AND BETTY HILL STORY, EXPERIENCER, AUTHOR
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Music playing
Music playing Hi, everyone.
I'm Carrie Cassidy from Project Camelot and very happy to be here today.
So I have Kathleen Marden with me, and she is a wonderful author, researcher, investigator, and more.
And Kathleen, I'm actually going to let you introduce yourself, but you are definitely a specialist in the Barney And Betty Hill story, but your life kind of took off from there, and it sounds like you've done a huge amount since then.
So, in whatever order you like.
But first of all, give yourself an introduction.
Well, let me start at the beginning.
I am the niece of Betty Hill, and I was 13 years old when she and my uncle Barney took a trip to Niagara Falls over a few days.
And as a result of that trip, when they were returning home, they had a close encounter with a UFO.
And when they arrived home and slept for a little while, they called my mother.
And I was arriving from school, and I was 13 years old, so I overheard part of the conversation.
Betty was very concerned that she and Barney might have been contaminated in some way because the craft had been so close to them, so close to their vehicle, that they feared that they had been exposed to some kind of harmful rays.
So my mother volunteered to call a neighbor of ours who was a physicist, and for some reason...
He told Betty that if she had a compass, she should go out to the car to see how the needle reacts.
Well, we know if you put it up near the battery, the needle is going to react.
But when she went out, she saw new shiny spots in the trunk of the car that had not been there the previous day.
Now, it's always been said that this measures radiation.
No, it does not measure radiation.
It measures a magnetic field.
And that physicist, who was a neighbor of ours, obviously, knew something that the rest of us didn't know.
And so, Betty placed the compass near those new shiny spots and the needle world.
And Barney, who wanted to forget about the whole thing, never to mention it to anybody, sort of scoffed at Betty, but he tried it, and the needle world for him.
As well.
And so they were very concerned about that.
They were concerned because they were missing time.
They expected to arrive home between 2 or 3 in the morning, and it was 5.14 a.m., according to Betty's watch, when she arrived home.
Because her watch had stopped, she went inside, and she set it to the time on the clock.
And I have that watch.
So it was that morning, and they started to get undressed.
They were going to take very long showers, leave all the luggage outside on the porch, not take anything into the house except for themselves and what they were wearing.
As Barney undressed, he noticed that the tops of his best-dressed shoes were so deeply scraped.
That he had to buy new shoes, and there was no prosaic explanation for that.
He, for some reason, was very interested, itchy, felt like something was wrong with his groin area.
And under hypnosis, he learned that a cup-like device had been placed there.
Betty's dress was torn in several places.
It was her favorite dress.
The zipper was torn at the top of the back of the neck.
The stitching was torn for about two inches.
And the thick zipper fabric itself, about an inch.
Now, can I just pause you there for a minute?
Sure.
Because I am curious, how did they know that they might have been exposed to radiation?
I mean, why was that the first thing through their minds, at least from the sound of what you're saying?
In other words, was there enough data out in the public where interactions with ETs at that point and the fact that you might be exposed to radiation if you're near a craft, was that common knowledge?
As far as I know, Betty and Barney didn't really have much interest in that topic, so they wouldn't have been reading about that anyway.
It's just that this was obviously not our craft.
This was obviously something from outside our planet, because the technology was so superior and so different than anything that we had.
This hovered silently in the air.
A hundred feet above their vehicle.
It moved across the highway in front of their vehicle and descended even lower.
Barney walked toward it carrying his binoculars and looked up at it and it was hovering silently.
Held the binoculars up to his eyes, and he saw figures that he said were somehow non-human.
That's a quote.
Looking down at him.
And this comes from the original reports.
This was not revealed for the first time through hypnosis.
Okay, but why did they know about the radiation idea?
Well, maybe cosmic rays.
Also, if we go on, let me tell you something else.
Okay.
Little fin-like structures started to slide out from the craft.
Something dropped down from the bottom of the craft, and Barney immediately feared that he was going to be captured like a bug in a net.
And that is when he went running back to the car and flung the binoculars.
He broke the strap, pulling...
The binoculars away from his eyes, flung the binoculars on the seat of the car and put it into gear.
He had left it running, the door open, lighted on the inside, and went speeding down the highway after he closed the door, obviously.
But he noticed that this craft was moving in his direction.
And then within moments, he and Betty heard a series of code-like buzzing sounds striking the trunk of their vehicle.
So here we have Kraft hovering over their vehicle.
They're hearing these buzzing sounds.
They feel electrical tingling through their bodies.
The car is vibrating.
And then they remember a little bit.
But the next thing they know, the 35 miles down the highway, they hear a second series of these buzzing sounds.
They have conscious recall of having found themselves in a new location, on a dirt road with tall trees all around.
There was a craft that had landed there, but they saw a fiery orb.
That's what they remembered.
And entities, something on the roadblock.
And the individuals in this roadblock had started to walk toward them.
And then they had no further memory until they were awakened by the second series of buzzing sounds a couple of hours later.
Maybe that's why they thought of radiation.
You know, we were having nuclear testing at the time, so everybody knew about radiation from nuclear tests.
Okay, and what exact year was this for our audience?
This was 1961.
Okay, and so...
Because we kind of jumped from the actual incident to how they were reacting when they were home.
And so the radiation thing, the whole thing with the clothing and all of that, just struck me as coming a bit out of nowhere because we weren't talking about the earlier, you know, what actually...
Right.
I was supposed to be talking about myself, my history.
I know.
I guess we kind of skipped that, didn't we?
Yes.
If you want to back up a little and get into yourself now that we've set the scene, which is quite stunning, I think you do a good job there, is basically understanding Sort of their state of mind as being in a situation where they weren't familiar with what are called alien abductions to us nowadays.
You know what I'm saying?
Absolutely not.
They were understandably not versed.
But I did wonder whether or not even the ETs might have put that into his mind or their minds about the radiation to check for radiation.
Because it's an odd thing to do in my view.
It never came up.
It did not come up during the hypnosis sessions.
Okay.
I can only tell you that.
So I don't know where that came from unless it came from...
The physicist himself.
You know, prior dreams, even.
We get information in all sorts of ways, as you probably know.
But it's impossible to answer the question.
All right.
No worries.
So let's go into your background a little bit, and then we'll backtrack into the story again and let you continue.
Okay.
I was close to Betty and Barney.
Betty was my mother's sister.
And in fact, I was the one who had been to Niagara Falls, was showing Betty and Barney my photographs and talking about what a wonderful time I had.
Barney was questioning me about what I loved doing there.
And he turned to Betty and he said, do you think you would like to go there sometime?
She said she would.
He decided to surprise her with this trip to Niagara Falls when she had a week-long vacation in September '61 from her job as a social worker for the state of New Hampshire.
Barney worked for the post office.
So I was 13 at the time.
I was just a normal school kid, a class leader.
I was a good student.
I went through High school was very close to Betty and Barney.
I was on the honor roll, and I was on the student council elected.
Betty and Barney and I were invited to President Lyndon Johnson's inauguration because we were active in politics.
And as a high school student, I was campaigning right along with Betty and Barney.
And what about military background in your family?
Are you or anyone in your family in the military?
Barney was in the military.
He was in the Army during World War II.
He was a truck driver and a sharpshooter.
And then Betty's daughter married a man who was in the Air Force.
And he was stationed at Pease Air Force Base just in the next town over from Portsmouth.
Where Betty and Barney lived.
And what about your immediate family?
Only my brother, who was a younger brother.
My uncle, Bob, was in World War II as well.
But my father was in the Coast Guard during World War II.
He was in charge of the dogs, and he walked the shoreline.
We lived along the Atlantic Ocean.
And so he walked the shoreline looking for Germans, looking for Nazis, trying to come into the United States as spies.
Okay, and your younger brother, you said, was in the military?
Yes, he was.
And what was his job or rank?
When he was in the military, he was a police officer in the military.
Okay.
All right.
So because I find that that actually is something that goes on in abductions often, there's a military connection in the family.
So that's why I was wondering.
And there's also usually a bloodline connection.
So you were active in politics.
Was your family, you know, so your last name is Marden.
Is that, you know, do you have like...
Going back into Europe, you know, ancestors, that sort of thing.
My maiden name is Miller.
Oh, uh-huh.
My mother's maiden name and Betty's maiden name was Barrett.
Uh-huh.
And dating back to the Dow family who came over from Europe, from England in 1637.
They were some of the early settlers of Hampton, New Hampshire.
Ah.
Active in politics there.
One of the sons was so disgusted and horrified when Quakers moved in and the Puritans revolted against the Quakers and started locking them up and hanging them and driving hot pokers through their tongues.
And doing all sorts of terrible things, supposedly religious freedom in this country really didn't exist for the Quakers.
Or for a lot of other people, too.
Was your family a Quaker, or were they...
Well, he became a Quaker as a result of all of this.
There were three women who were arrested.
They were Quakers, and they were walking, spreading their message.
They were sentenced to being stripped to the waist and chained to a cart, pulled by a horse.
And they were to go through, I believe it was six towns, and they were to be beaten on the back in every town that they went through.
And then when they went through the town of Hampton...
This relative of mine, way back in 1656, I believe it was, I was 57, was so horrified at how gleefully the Puritans in Hampton beat these women that he killed.
He became a Quaker secretly for 10 years, and then he moved with his family to the Quaker colony.
So on my grandmother's side, they have remained Quakers.
We knew John Greenleaf Whittier.
I have letters that he sent to my family, and he was very active in abolition.
And the abolitionists.
Well, you certainly have an interesting family, I'll say that.
All right, so since this is not the subject of, even though I think I'd love to hear more, let's go into this situation with Betty and Barney Hill in the sense that...
Did anyone in your family or before this incident, this incredible incident, did anyone have a familiarity with the UFO topic?
Because there was popular books out at the time, right?
Yeah, the family was interested in politics.
My grandfather was a selectman for the town of Kingston, an elected police officer.
My grandmother was a union organizer.
Had meetings at her house, so very active in politics, not in UFOs.
Except for in 1957, my mother and an aunt had gone grocery shopping, and they saw this very large cigar-shaped craft hovering over a field.
And there were smaller craft flying around it.
They stopped the car, and they went to a neighbor's house, and the people who lived there went out, and they saw this as well.
Now, I didn't know about this in 1961, when Betty and Barney had their own experience.
My mother had told them, Barney simply did not believe it was possible, that it could be extraterrestrial.
My mother knew that it wasn't anything she'd ever seen before, and Betty was sort of uncertain.
She believed that it could possibly be.
All right.
Okay.
So at this point, is there anything about your immediate background, or did you go to college, that sort of thing?
Yes.
Just to cover your bio a bit more.
Okay.
I went to the University of New Hampshire.
I earned my degree in social work and then after that I did graduate work in education and I taught school and continued on with my graduate work in education.
Okay, now at what point did you get involved as a researcher or a very, you know, deliberately focusing on your, I guess, your aunt's experience?
Well, I had moved away.
I was in Cincinnati and then I was out in Colorado.
So I moved back to New Hampshire in the early 1980s and was spending a lot more time with my aunt.
She started mentoring me probably about 1985 on everything that she knew about UFOs.
From time to time, I had visited her.
My husband was a graduate student, and so we would return in the summer.
We'd return back to New Hampshire during vacations.
I oftentimes met with Betty's friends who were ufologists.
Dr. James Harder was sometimes there, and I met with him in the mid-1970s.
So I did know about the Travis Walton case and Charlie Hickson and Calvin Parker and the three women from Kentucky.
A number of different cases.
Okay, did you lose...
We lost you for a minute there.
So you were talking about returning in the summers to New Hampshire?
I returned to...
New Hampshire during the summers and during vacation, my first husband was earning his doctorate at the University of Cincinnati.
So we had time because I was teaching.
So we had time off and we would return home to visit the family.
And Barney had died at that point.
He died in 1969.
And so oftentimes when I visited...
Betty, there were other ufologists there, there were experiencers there, and even Dr. James Harder in the mid-1970s.
And he was very instrumental in the investigation of Travis Walton's case, of Charlie Hickson and Calvin Parker's case.
Some very important cases.
He was the lead investigator for APRO at that time.
Okay, so now what I'd like to do is kind of set the scene for you in particular, and I'm going to come back to some of that because I want to pursue that as well.
But in terms of going back to, and I know this interview, you wanted to explore some other topics as well.
We don't have to.
I know there are many books and many interviews regarding Betty and Barney Hill and the story.
But I do ask sort of unusual questions, as I'm told.
Yes, you are.
So that's why I'm having you go over some old material here, because I think it helps the audience who is unfamiliar, perhaps, with the story.
We have a lot of people that are younger and so on.
So, to go back to the experience, so they took off, they stripped their clothes, they knew something really quite extraordinary happened to them.
Can you maybe, in a sort of blow-by-blow, quickly bring us up to date to where, you know, you are now when you're talking, you know, 1980s and so on?
So, what was the outcome of the exact experience?
When did they start going to therapists, that sort of thing?
Barney developed bleeding ulcers and this was in 1963 and he ended up in the hospital, life-threatening condition, which was related to the emotional impact of this.
experience that he had.
And it would not recede with traditional medical Dr. Benjamin Simon was a neuropsychiatrist who had set up the military psychiatric unit at the Mason General Hospital on Long Island during World War II.
And he was very successful in treating Victims of shell shock or conversion hysteria, people who had undergone incredibly traumatic experiences on the battlefield and who, for example, were blind without a physiological reason for blindness, were unable to walk without a physiological reason.
And he developed a special hypnotic technique.
Which he was known for.
He was in Who's Who among psychiatrists, psychologists in the United States.
He had owned his own psychiatric hospital.
He taught at Harvard and Yale and was really very, very outstanding.
He was a colonel during World War II and he continued with that for quite a while in the Army.
Okay, so he was also probably familiar with mind control.
Well, he used it.
He absolutely used it through hypnosis in order to get to what the real problem was because other psychiatrists had worked with these men and they had not improved.
Dr. Simon...
Got to the heart of the problem because there were a number of things in their lives.
For example, the man who had become blind had observed as his best friend was killed in front of him in the war.
But still, the psychotherapy didn't help.
So Dr. Simon probed deeper.
And what he discovered is that his sweetheart had written him a Dear John letter a week or two before this experience where his friend was killed.
And it was the combination of those things that caused the depth of trauma that he had.
So he specialized in this kind of work.
So that he could get to the crux of the matter and help that individual, that patient of his, to overcome the underlying psychiatric condition.
Okay, now just one second.
So when Betty and Barney, just for the sake of the audience, because there'll be lots of gaps here for the moment, and of course they can read later books, etc., and go to your website.
You've got books on the subject as well, right?
Several.
So, and I apologize that I haven't read your books, but I will definitely be looking further into this.
So, when you...
He said they came home, they thought there might be radiation, etc.
He got health issues later on.
Did they get involved with police, psychiatrists, and so on prior to his actual health reason for getting in contact with this colonel?
Yes.
Made a report to Pease Air Force Base the day after they arrived home because my father's best friend was the chief of police in the small town of Newton, New Hampshire, and he was at our house.
He stopped every night for coffee, and so he became involved in this, and he told Betty and Barney to call Pease Air Force Base and make a report because they had instructed all the police departments to tell people who had UFO sightings.
to report them to Pease.
So, Betty and Barney filed a formal report.
Then, since Barney immediately was having so much difficulty with mental block and just denial and not wanting to talk about it,
not wanting anyone to know about it, he They ended up going with Betty to a psychiatrist, and this psychiatrist would not hypnotize them at that time.
He said, I realize what you've been through, but you will remember more over time, so I want you to give it sometime, because you will remember more.
And they did.
Okay, so was that the gist of it?
I mean, I'm just trying to find out how much history did they have in that kind of psychiatry or psychiatric exposure prior to dealing with this colonel who you say was so very gifted in his approach?
Well, only before they could go to him, Barney had seen a psychiatrist over the bleeding ulcers that wouldn't heal.
I see.
And he was the one who referred Barney to Dr. Simon.
All right.
Now what about military exposure?
Was there any exposure to the military after the incident and prior to this doctor?
I'm sorry, who was Simon, did you say?
Dr. Benjamin Simon, who was no longer in the military at that point.
He was late in his career, actually.
He died in 1980, I think it was.
Okay, but what I meant is, did they have any military?
Was the military involved in the incident after it happened, between there and when they met with Dr. Simon?
The military who became involved was essentially the Navy.
Let me tell you that.
Admiral Herbert Knowles was meeting with naval officers.
He had retired.
He was on NICAP's board of directors, so he knew about Betty's and Barney's experience through NICAP.
And he was meeting with Wilbert Smith and members of the Canadian military.
And the Canadian military had a piece of a craft, a piece of metal from the craft, that they had taken to Admiral Knowles' home.
And Wilbert Smith and Admiral Knowles had a long history of doing communication experiments with these non-humans.
So they knew that this was real.
Now, Wilbert Smith died in 1961 or 62, so I don't think that Betty or Barney met him.
But they did meet with Admiral Knowles and his wife, Helen.
They were invited for brunch initially, and they went up to their house in Maine for brunch.
They were apprehensive.
They thought that they would be criticized.
But when they arrived, everyone...
Who was there knew that this was real.
And so they had a lot of support from the Canadian military, from Admiral Knowles, and from his family.
And so that was very helpful to them.
All right.
Also...
Okay, go ahead.
Barney's best friend had just retired, allegedly, from...
The military from the Air Force.
His name was Jim McDonald, not the Jim McDonald from Arizona, and he had been in the CIA.
Okay, and he was the best friend of Barney's?
Yes, he was Barney's best friend.
Okay, and then how much involvement did he have prior to the meeting with Dr. Simon?
When Robert Homan and C.D. Jackson went from NICAP to interview Betty and Barney in November of 1961, Jim McDonald was there to support Barney through this interview.
Okay.
All right.
That's great.
And so now fast forward to their dealing with Dr. Simon.
Was there some kind of exposure of the incidents or so on that went on through the hypnosis or whatever mind control techniques he did use on Barney that came forward at that time?
What he used on Barney was the suggestion that he would remember everything and he would tell him everything.
And the same with Betty.
He hypnotized them separately and he reinstated amnesia at the end of each session so that they could not share information with one another.
They remained amnesic.
For what happened until they had had hypnosis for four months.
Then for two months they met together with Dr. Simon as they listened to what each other had stated on the hypnosis tapes and worked therapeutically through this with Dr. Simon.
And did their stories match?
Yes.
Recall and all of that?
Yes, their stories matched.
Fascinating.
All right.
So if we go from there, because this story has sort of been with us.
It has a very long history.
And there are people that are skeptical, I guess, still to this day.
And there are people that stand by it and so on.
It sort of seems obvious that it's a legitimate story, in my view.
When you got involved, do you feel that you made a contribution to this story in a certain substantial way?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I'm not trying to undermine anything here.
For the audience's sake, I just want to bring it to the ground zero so that we know from there your involvement and so on.
Because I think we're here to interview you.
I am the trustee of Betty's Estate.
I'm the trustee of all of her archival records, all of her photographs, the hypnosis tapes of everything.
And I have done the most extensive investigation, I believe, of anyone who has ever investigated this case.
I found scientists who have continued to do analyses.
On things like Betty's dress.
We have DNA evidence that backs up the idea that a needle was inserted into her navel.
We have rare earth metals on her dress that should not be there.
One is highly toxic.
They're used in nanotechnology and nanosheets.
Wow.
There is a tremendous amount of evidence in this case.
Okay.
Now, in terms of yourself, again, would you say, I mean, obviously you're related to somebody.
They have a very traumatic experience, and these are people that are close to you, family members, really.
And so what psychologically...
Also made you get so involved.
And I don't know your history.
So was it because you had an abduction yourself?
Or was it something else?
I mean, what is your thought about all of that?
Because you really became, you know, this...
Incredible investigator of the story.
You're a family member.
And so I'm just wondering, what do you think your motivation was all these years?
I became very, very interested in their case because I was watching television shows with people like Carl Sagan and with Philip Klass and Robert Schaeffer and a number of people that I later came to know as debunkers or disinformants.
And so I was watching this, I was reading their books, and it didn't really have the ring of truth.
So I wanted to separate fact from fiction.
And since my background is in psychology and sociology, I wanted to transcribe all of the hypnosis tapes and line them up.
I wanted to study Betty's and Barney's separate descriptive details, their speech patterns, the way they thought, and to line those up to see if it was possible that perhaps Betty had passed this information from a series of dreams that she had.
On to Barney, and that Barney had developed his own story, not knowing this, really, but came to believe that this had happened to him, as these debunkers were saying.
And so I started as someone who was examining their arguments.
So you were, even though, I'm sorry to interrupt here, but you were actually, even though you're in the family, you saw the trauma, you actually were not a believer?
You didn't, you were a skeptic?
I was an open-minded skeptic.
And I will tell you, That when I was 17 years old and Barney was working with a team of scientists to call in craft to land on my grandparents' farm, to land it.
I grew up across the street from my grandparents.
Okay.
And I found myself on a craft.
It caused tremendous trauma for me and my mother as well.
The two of us.
But I was always attempting to follow the skeptic's lead to try to explain this away, to say that this has to be psychological.
This didn't happen.
So I was always a scientific skeptic.
That's strange.
I mean, I find that...
Unusual.
But do you think that came, like, was that an inherited, you know, inherited trait?
Do you think in your family to be, I don't know, you know, agnostic or skeptical or certain training that made you want to be analytical about everything and not take it at face value?
Yes, I am a very analytical person, and I do think that that runs in my family.
Betty was analytical as well.
You know, and my grandparents.
She actually handled the experience a lot better, you know, not just physically, but it sounds psychologically, than Barney.
Is that correct?
That's correct.
Yeah, and that's fascinating, especially since he was in the military, right?
Yes, but he was in an explosion in the military.
He lost his teeth as the result of the grenade.
That exploded.
So, I mean, he had experienced some trauma from that.
He'd experienced some trauma from being a highly intelligent black man who grew up in a segregated society and all of what that entailed.
Right.
You know, so he had a different background than my family.
Yeah, right.
Okay, and just since you mentioned that, Has his family members been investigating their own family member?
In other words, Barney's experience.
I don't know their role at all.
Were they actively investigating the way you were?
Or did you have a relationship where you could talk with them?
I'm not aware of any other family member on either side of the family who has done this kind of investigation that I have done.
I see.
All right.
Well, that is really fascinating.
Sorry, but when you were a little kid, did you have any defining incident?
For example, obviously, you can see I'm analytical.
I analyze everything, and I'm very...
I love mysteries.
I love conspiracies.
I always want to know the answers to everything.
So I was like that since I was a kid.
And that basically, I guess, set me apart from other people because they didn't question everything the way I did.
So when you were young, very young, do you think that you had any kind of an incident that might have made you the way you are, you know, being such a fervent?
Well, I think that part of it was from reading Nancy Drew mystery books.
That was my favorite.
Watching Perry Mason, that was my favorite show.
And, you know, so that was analytical.
In a sense, I was scientific.
I had a telescope.
I had a microscope.
My father was very much involved in my education at home, teaching me about family genealogy on the Scottish side, teaching me about Egypt and ancient Egypt, and he was very much a scholar of ancient Egypt.
So, I learned all of these things from...
You know, my family.
Okay, very good.
So you were starting very young to have some of the skill set necessary to really be a good investigator.
So, okay, now let's fast forward to your being an author.
I know we don't have a tremendous amount of time, and maybe you can come back if you're willing at some point, and we can go in deeper into any of the subjects we've talked about so far.
I want to make sure to hit on some things that you wanted to bring forward in the interview.
As I recall, you did mention that you had other areas you wanted to talk about, so I want to make sure that we do that.
Do you have those topics at hand, or do you want to go deeper into your basic first line of inquiry, this Betty and Barney Hill story?
Well, the Betty and Barney Hill story and that very extensive investigation, including retracing their entire route on the same roads when they were available in the same timeframe, stopping in the same places that they stopped in.
You know, that's how the kind of investigator I was.
I had all of the hypnosis tapes.
Barney and Betty were describing the scenery, and I had memorized the tapes by that time.
I'd listened to them so many times.
So I was seeing the scenery that they were describing during their drive.
So after that, I wrote Captured, the Betty and Barney Hill UFO Experience, and Stanton Friedman.
who was a nuclear physicist and ufologist had worked on the star map with Marjorie Fish and to find Physicists, astrophysicists who would vet Marjorie's work.
So he became known to me.
I'd met him through my aunt's recommendation.
And she told me if I needed any help with the book, then I should contact Stanton.
So I did.
And he wrote a couple of chapters in the book and he vetted the book for me, Linda Malton Howe did, Dr. Bruce Maccabee did.
And so, you know, he was instrumental in ascertaining that everything that I had written was right on, was the truth and wasn't exaggerated at all.
And that was extraordinarily important.
That's fascinating.
You said you were, in essence, it sounded like you were on craft, but you didn't really refer to your own experience as abductions.
Were you regressed?
Did you go into those experiences at all back when they happened?
Not until years later.
The first time I was regressed, it was by Dr. James Harder back in probably the mid-1970s.
And, yeah, it...
Yeah, what I found is I was on a table, and there were nonhumans who were standing behind me, and they were doing some kind of tests on me, extracting tissues from my body, and had a great concern about environmental toxicity.
I had a nuclear base not that far away from me.
I had what became a Superfund site just up the street from me, from where I grew up.
Okay, I don't know what that is.
What is a Superfund site?
A toxic waste site.
It's so toxic and harmful that the government pays for the cleanup.
So you're saying the beings were concerned about toxicity?
Yes.
So you sound like you've had more than one experience like that, where you ended up on a table with...
I did from time to time.
Okay, and did you see the ETs?
In other words, were they typical greys?
Were there as a combination of different individuals?
And did you see military men in the process as well?
No military men, only greys.
Okay.
And the same ones that Betty and Barney saw, two groups, the ones that were taller, about five feet tall or a little taller, and the short ones who were the ones who were their assistants.
Right.
And I, over time, overcame my fear.
I became a hypnotherapist.
I ran a support group for experiencers.
I worked one-on-one with experiencers to assist them in processing what they were going through.
And I used that hypnosis training on myself, too, so that I gave myself keywords and I taught myself to overcome the fight-or-flight response.
When these nonhumans came into my environment.
So what I did was say those key words to myself.
I could even think them before they could take control of my mind.
And I projected love toward them.
That was what worked for me so that I established a good relationship with them where They communicated with me.
Okay, so if you were to look at your past in that way as well, what is your overall sort of interpretation of the various ETs that were involved with Betty and Barney Hill and with you?
And you obviously had a vast experience with, as you say, experiencers and so on and so forth.
Do you have any particular take on The different beings that you were exposed to.
You know, there are many people that like to say that all the ETs are positive and positively oriented and so on.
Are you of that school or do you question their motives, etc., and think that it's a mixed bag?
Well, something that I'm well known for is doing academic studies on experiencers.
At this point, we've worked on four studies, three with PhD scientists, and what we have discovered is that about 20% are negative, about 20% are highly positive, and the other 60% are just neutral or scientific or, you know, that sort of thing.
So I look at it from that perspective rather than from a subjective point of view.
Sure.
And I think that our emotions color our interpretation of the experience.
So if we are terribly frightened, then we're going to think that they're doing something bad to us.
That, you know, you hear everywhere that they're just using us as lab rats.
And I don't think that, you know, you could interpret that way, but you have to look beyond that.
That's a very simplistic explanation in my point of view.
They are concerned about the survival of all life on our planet.
Okay.
That's what they say.
Right.
Did you, over these years, you know, and you've been very involved, I can tell, in the community, although strangely, I haven't, you know, come across you until now.
It's only recently when someone saw me speak, I think, at a conference recently, and then a friend of yours wanted me to contact you, and it took a while, but we got into contact.
So would you say that the...
That you've had a lot of exposure to the military.
In other words, have military sort of been around you?
Have you interacted with them a lot?
Do you have any sort of background with that?
You know, in other words, because they're very involved in the ET story as contrary to what, you know, the UAP hearings might be.
Not had a great deal of contact with the military.
I'm the founder of the Mutual UFO Network's experience or resource team, research team.
I was their director for 10 years.
I've spoken at conferences around the world.
I've done more than 60 television shows.
So I don't know why you weren't familiar with me, but maybe you're watching something different or researching something different than what I specialize in.
That's probably the reason.
So much that originated, meaning not you so much as Barney and Betty Hill.
So the older UFO cases were before my time, obviously.
And so I have actually, I guess you might say, my area of specialty is the secret space program.
And my witnesses, generally speaking, came after those experiences.
I think maybe going back to the 1980s.
Probably the oldest, you know, Bob Dean and people like this, where I was not, there were certain areas, you know, it's like anything, you kind of get, go where you're led.
And so we had a lot of military.
That's why I'm asking about the military.
I'm curious, you know, how much exposure did they, you know, did you feel they were tracking you?
And also...
As part of that question, did you ever feel that you were being sort of carefully monitored, interfered with in any way by military technology, surveillance, that sort of thing?
Someone has had me under surveillance.
I don't know who it is because there are hate groups too.
My line has been tapped.
It used to be when I had a wired phone line.
I know that that was the case.
I've been threatened.
Everybody's been threatened in this field.
And I just go on.
I have...
One very good friend who is retired military.
I've helped and hypnotized other people who were in the military when they were abducted.
Okay.
You know, so I've worked to help these people because I've been a support person.
Okay.
So when you were threatened, did you feel that you were being threatened by like just...
You know, crazies out there, individuals with their own agendas, or did you feel that it was basically military, a link to the military in some form or fashion, like CIA, NSA, these various organizations?
It runs the gamut.
It really runs the gamut.
It's happened so many times.
Okay, so you don't pinpoint it necessarily to anyone?
No, ranging from religious fanatics to Probably someone from a three-letter agency.
I had a call once from somebody who identified themselves as CIA, and they said, we like the work that you and Friedman are doing, and if it gets to the point where we don't like it, then we're going to let you know.
And, you know, when I spoke at Contact in the Desert, and I was talking about...
Give me a moment.
I was talking about Admiral Herbert Knowles and Wilbert Smith and their experiments in communication with nonhumans.
The man in the audience came up to me.
One man, he's dressed in a black suit, and he threatened me.
Really?
He said, what gives you the right?
Blah, blah, blah.
You're going to pay for this.
Wow.
It's that kind of thing.
That's amazing.
Okay.
And yeah, I thought it was pretty amazing too.
What do you mean?
What gives me the right?
This is public knowledge.
This is public information.
People have written about it.
So then in terms of the way things are going with the disclosure movement, as they call it, right?
My position, as far as that goes, is that a lot of this stuff is being sort of re-exposed, and that it's already been out there, tremendous amount of information.
Investigators like you, obviously, Linda Moulton Howe, you know, that have run the gamut, and I myself have been doing this for 20 years now.
So I find it not so much disclosure, much less...
Of a disclosure than just a revisiting of all the disclosure that we have been exposing ourselves through our research and so on in the last 40 years, let's say, and more, because there are people before me and even before you, Phil Schneider, and so on and so forth.
So when you look at the disclosure...
Movement, as it's called nowadays, and you look at the UAP hearings and the fact that they're still asking the question, are there crash retrievals?
You know, when we've been interviewing, well, at least I've been interviewing witnesses on the subject, again, going back 20 years.
So, and in your case, probably longer.
So, what is your reaction?
And would you, for example, if you're going to have a UAP hearing, it would seem that someone like you, who has this incredible litany of investigations and, you know, being part of the whole network, really, and I guess you say a therapist, right, for abductees?
I was, yes.
Okay.
I'm retired now.
Okay.
From that, I'm still writing.
So we have so many experts, really, that have spent their life, you know, I don't know how long you would consider of your life.
Sounds like maybe 40 years or more.
More.
So, you know, because, I mean, once you grow up and so on and so forth.
So what I'm saying is, how are you viewing the situation here with so-called disclosure?
The way I view the situation is that Congress wants to know answers.
The military, industrial, intelligence complex wants to keep us in the dark.
They want to develop this technology that they have.
They don't want it to go elsewhere.
They have their private industry that they're working with.
And they certainly don't want to talk.
about what is piloting these craft.
And I've spoken to military officers about this, and I said, you know what, well, I think that the reason that this is happening is because our military is defenseless when it comes to these nonhumans and their technology.
They can do whatever they want.
They can take anybody at any time they want to take anybody.
You know, but they've come into my environment and communicated with me.
And, you know, having that kind of communication where I couldn't see them, but they could communicate telepathically and I could feel that very strong tingling sensation in my body knowing that they were present.
I mean, that was positive.
And so I think that I'm upset because they want to shoot these nonhumans down.
If they wanted to harm us, they could have harmed us.
They're concerned about our behavior.
They're concerned about our nuclear weapons.
They told me that they are most concerned because our technological progress is out of balance with our spiritual growth.
And when that happens, it can lead to, they use the word, disintegration of the species, of everything.
That's what they're concerned about.
You know, in nuclear war, there is disintegration.
And that is their major problem.
They're trying to raise human consciousness.
And I believe that Congress is being very conservative about this.
Because David Grush did tell us about non-human biologics.
There's been discussion about craft retrievals.
I know that they're being very cautious because they don't want catastrophic disclosure among the human population.
They're afraid of the impact it will have on the general population.
And so they have to do this slowly.
Now, in terms of what is happening at the Pentagon, they were supposed to release the reports dating all the way back to the beginning of their formal studies.
Well, I happen to have the evidence of their formal studies.
Stanton Friedman and I wrote a book about that.
Fact fiction and flying saucers.
Stanton had a very long history of examining and speaking about the formal studies.
The largest one was Blue Book Special Report No.
14, the largest study ever done on UFOs.
Back in the mid-1950s, 3,201 cases, chi-square analysis.
They could not accept a case as a true unknown unless all of the scientists involved agreed with this.
And still they had 21.5% that were true unknowns.
The government completely dismissed all of these important studies.
They had another one where it was 26.96% True unknowns, meaning that they were nothing from this planet.
They couldn't identify them as anything prosaic.
And so, you know, they flat out lied about it again in the report.
And so I'm absolutely disgusted because, as the Congress people say, you know, we're paying their salaries.
And that doesn't give them the right to pull a hoax on us or to lie to us.
I don't like that at all.
Okay.
This is, you know, I met Stanton very briefly a couple of times.
But at one particular, he, you know, he died, actually.
You know, he's died.
So people know that.
And did you think that he was basically suicided or killed?
No, I know that he wasn't.
We remain good friends.
So I don't know the circumstances of his death.
We communicated on a regular basis.
He had had a heart attack.
I mean, he was 84 years old.
When he was 83, he had a heart attack.
He had heart problems.
He had stents put in.
And his health was going downhill.
Okay.
And that's what I heard from him, is how poorly he was feeling.
He had agreed to go to Ohio to speak in front of an audience, to be interviewed.
And his wife did not want him to go.
His daughter didn't want him to go.
I tried to talk him out of it, and he said, but I have...
All of my fans, they've paid for their seats.
I'm not going to disappoint them.
And he called me before he left, and he said, I have a feeling that I'm not going to survive long enough to come home.
I feel like I might die.
If I make it, I'll talk to you.
I'll call you when I arrive home.
But he was determined that he was going to do that, even though he felt...
That he wasn't going to survive, not because anyone was going to take his life, but because his health was that poor.
Okay.
And he didn't survive it.
He died when he was returning home.
Wow.
All right.
So he sort of had a premonition about it.
In your own experience, well, before I ask this, I did ask you, but we never quite got an answer.
Are there certain topics that you are investigating now that you might like to talk about, even briefly, new topics or topics that are related, certain investigations in progress?
I had become very involved in the messages that experiencers are receiving from non-human entities, non-human intelligence.
And so I had the opportunity to, as a scientific researcher, take part in an experiment where a man who was an experiencer from the time he was a little boy had learned to communicate with these nonhumans.
He had learned how to travel out of his body with them.
He had a close relationship with them, and they wanted to communicate with us.
We had certain criteria that had to be met.
We had to be able to use our scientific equipment to measure their presence.
We required that they would show us evidence of their presence, and they met those criteria.
Okay.
So for two years, researchers and I met with this man.
We were permitted to ask questions of these non-humans.
They would come in one at a time, either in a mediumistic way or channeling, whatever you want to call it.
But I can tell you that when they came in, They were hot because his body perspired so profusely that he was soaking wet, completely drenched.
And we were able to measure with a laser thermometer that the air around his body was 10 degrees higher than in the rest of the room.
And it had, we did before, it was the temperature of the remainder of the room.
So we did a great deal of investigation and received an incredible amount of information.
We asked 120 questions that I've published in my latest book, Forbidden Knowledge.
What did I call it?
A Personal Journey from Alien Abduction to Spiritual Transformation.
So that's my latest book.
It's available as a paperback, as an audio book, and as an e-book.
Excellent.
All right.
So was there any...
You've been doing that for two years.
Is that right, you said?
We did that for two years, and then we met periodically.
Every year, once or twice after that.
So we did the experiment beginning in 2016, the fall of 2016, so until about 2018, and we were meeting from time to time through up until COVID and a little into COVID.
And we have not met in the past year or two.
Okay, well, that'll be a fascinating book for sure.
So, are you familiar with Courtney Brown and his remote viewers?
Yes.
Okay, and have you watched any of their reports and so on and so forth?
I have not watched anything recently, but back when I was doing some research on remote viewing, I did.
Okay.
Well, so...
His group have been having these sort of roundtable discussions with ETs in the room, supposedly.
And they're doing that.
They're having these meetings, you know, videoed.
And so you can actually watch them.
Sounds interesting.
And it would be interesting probably for you to see what they're experiencing in their dialogues and so on and so forth with the group they're interacting with, which I believe is legitimate.
And so just wondered.
So in terms of, and I think we should probably wrap this up.
I think we're going over an hour at this point.
Is there anything you want to say to the audience before we...
We let you go, and then hopefully you can come back, because you obviously have a vast amount of experience and information.
Well, if you would like to find out where I'm going to be speaking this year, you can go to my website at Kathleen-Martin.com.
I have a tremendous amount of information on that website that you can read for absolutely free, many articles, and if you would like an autographed copy on...
Of any of my books, or also the DVD I made about Betty and Barney Hill of their hypnosis tapes, comparative analysis of their statements, then you can get autographed copies of all of those on my website, Kathleen-Martin.com.
If you want to reach out to me, you can reach out to me there as well.
And I want to thank everybody for listening.
All of my books are available on Amazon.
They might be in bookstores and other online bookstores.
Okay, excellent.
Well, this has been fascinating as I knew it would be.
And thank you so much.
You speak very clearly.
And I think that your perspectives are quite far...
I think that's valuable to the audience and certainly other investigators who maybe at this time hadn't been really focusing, you know, back on that sort of inciting incident with Betty and Barney Hill.
I think it's worth the way disclosure is sort of happening but not happening, that if they were to go back to a lot of the work that has been done by wonderful researchers and revisited at this time, they would educate themselves, talking about the audience and so on, even Congress, and realize that they're going to have another hearing.
Right now, very soon.
Yes.
And so if they would educate themselves before they went to the hearing so that they didn't sound so stupid, you know, sorry, but, you know, stupid with intent, perhaps, to keep a lid on things.
But they seem, some of them certainly are, like Luna, are, you know.
Conscientious and serious and really want answers.
But it would be better so that they would be better served, I believe, if they look at the history of the investigators like yourself and others and the wonderful work you've done.
So thank you for coming on my show.
It's been my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
And let's hopefully do this again in the near future.
Okay.
All right?
Okay, so I'm going to run the credits and you can, you know, go ahead and leave.
And thanks everyone for watching today.
Take care.
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